Tia/Calypso's divine intervention??....( possible spoilers)

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LovelyOne
Bootstrap touches Jack's hand in the very beginning, giving him the "black mark". Then when Jack meets Davy Jones, Jones touches his hand and takes the mark OFF. This should mean he's not being hunted by the Kraken anymore, right? But then why does it suddenly come back when he and Elizabeth almost kiss?

ANSWER:


Tia's/Calypso's intervention..It was to stop Jack messing his chances up with Liz IMO..Jack would have lost her if he kissed her there...the ring he took from her hut is made to be MASSIVELY OBVIOUS on that hand just before the black spot appears on it..

This "puling away" is what ALSO causes Liz to become afraid of Jack and the fact that he is suddenly "proving" to care more about her feelings than his own selfish desires. This is a PG 13/Disney movie we have to settle for sexual implications when it comes to the characters and sex talk.

Just before this teaser kiss the two were obviously talking about SEX not marriage...Well Liz was..I'm not so sure about jack..I think it was a bit of both when he said it..Liz is "disgusted" because she thinks he's just talking about sex... Jack suddenly shows Liz that he has more of an interest in having her as a parter instead of just a mere object...Liz is puzzled..and you can see the suspicion in her face.and then she says."why doesn't your compass work?" in other words "its not just sex?"..Jack looks shocked, cornered and he unconvincingly tries to prove that "my compass works fine" He then looks downwards at a cannon that is suggestively placed near Liz...then he tries to escape the awkward situation..Liz is NOT convinced...and this scene was a test, she wanted to see if Jack was actually more interested in her as an object or if he was actually caring about her and what she wants..If he kisses her..he's SELFISHLY kissing her when shes saying its not what she "stands for"..Liz already has feelings for Jack its more than obvious..but she seems to feel safe because she thinks Jack is only ever interested in her for sex..and she feels safe in believing that it could never develop into anything more between them...She's trying with all her MIGHT to make him kiss her..but BAM he pulls away! and she looks quite uneasy with it..as in "WHAT THE HELL JACK SPARROW CARES FOR ME?"

That uneasiness in her face is a warning sign as to what is going to happen later if Jack PROVES to her that he loves her..and its not good place its pointing to..its a place of FEAR...

What I find interesting is that WHEN Jack has proven to Liz that he cares for her by leaving and then COMING BACK for her(what she fears)..Liz DOES FREAK OUT because she realizes that this man loves her. She has her own feelings for him and they have now just totally moved up a level because the man cares for her..he wants to protect her..he puts her before himself..She is in NO WAY ready to accept Jack yet..she chains him up to remove the temptation of him..she forces herself to be with Will even though its not what her heart REALLY wants..Just as she chains him up....LOOK at what is made to be obvious..its the RING FROM TIA'S HUT!..meaning that THIS whole ending happened because SHE had intervened earlier by making the black spot appear..she caused this whole "FEAR of loving Jack" that Liz has..Also the fact that the kiss was stopped gave Jack time to realize that he DOES LOVE HER...So it made sure that ending happened the way it does..and it ALSO gives WILL a chance to see it...!!!


This ending had to happen if Liz and Jack were to realize their feelings for each other.....it HAD to be a life or death moment...in which he realized WHAT was more important to him his own well being/possessions or Elizabeth..He realizes its her..In turn Liz would have never realized her feelings for him had she he NOT come back for her during a life or death moment...Also Jack dies knowing that Liz wants him...and BADLY..the very act of removing him from her life because he is such a "tempting threat" to her makes him smile..the fact she goes into kiss him again but pulls away makes him smile even more and confirm with pride "pirate"..

Tia must have been planning this for a LONG time because the means to bring Jack back from the dead were there in her hut before he even got there to see her.

the most important thing to note is that Jack WAS ready to love her..but Liz Wasn't..just yet...Will saw the kiss..which gives him reason to leave her/do something stupid to himself if she chooses Jack over him..Tia did all this for a purpose..and I think its to make Will the next Davy Jones.

Chiki Mina
thats true. when jack showed up to the rescue she freeked out completely cus thats when she fell in love. she got scared bc she thinks its wrong and should stick with Will. Liz makes up a caca story saying taht its after u not the ship, its not us..thats caca right there. because Davy said 'BRING HIS BELOVED PEARL BACK TO THE DEPTHS' since davy brought the ship back he could also bring it down again. the KRAKEN ATTACKED THE PEARL AND WHO EVER IS IN IT NOT SPECIFICALLY JACK!! the kraken attacked TWICE while jack was away the kraken couldve easily attack the long boat where jack is, instead it attacked the pearl...and liz knew about it...but so did jack and he knows why she chained him up. like what miss lovelyone said, thats what made him smile and just simply say "pirate" with pride

CaptinJackLover
WOW you have really good observations!

Chiki Mina
who me or lovelyone or both IT BETTER BE ME JK im kidding miss lovelyone lol

CaptinJackLover
LOL both of you actually! Lovelyone you caN WRITE! gosh you write a lot! and i mean ALOT!

Chiki Mina
and that means we read alot i mean ALOT!!

CaptinJackLover
LOL yea i guess so..but sumtimes i skip like a line or two so i can get through it quicker lol

LovelyOne
LOL ...I often overtype when I'm trying to prove something..its usually because its coming to my head as I'm writing it..It's a first draft no time to shorten it or what ever laughing out loud

and thanks for the compliments smile

LovelyOne
also the only time the spot appears/dissapears justifiably is when Davy or someone else working for davy adds or removes it..so it cant just appear on its own, randomly unless someone or something is there making it happen..I think that it's Tia and that ring..thats why it looks obvious on the very hand the black spot appears on only seconds later..

Chiki Mina
yea i do the same.i just get too excited and when i want to proove apoint i exagerate and i could never shut up lol

LovelyOne
LOL it can be a blessing..but it can also turn people off from reading your theories if they are too long.. sad

CaptinJackLover
i like reading them!

LovelyOne
aww thanks big grin *blush*....I do write too much though...my fingers have cramps in them sad

CaptinJackLover
awww sad lol

sailorleo
write me a theory...something random....

CaptinJackLover
lol


hey what happened to my siggy?! it had more pics! grrrr. sry lol

Chiki Mina
im still having troubles w my signature *cries*
http://images.killermovies.com/forums/user_sigs/customsig_100151_6k.gif

CaptinJackLover
grr i had 4 awesomely awesome pics in mine and now i only have one! grr

sailorleo
i lovers my siggy!!!!!!!!!!!!made it myself!!!!!!!!!

Chiki Mina
yea but i dunno how to post bigger siggies all i get are crappy...waaaaa*cries*

CaptinJackLover
ditto!

LovelyOne
Also Tia has ink all around her teeth and mouth right? Well maybe she has been kissing Davy before hand..she may have done that to "magically insert" that ink into the ring so that she could make the black spot appear on Jacks palm..

Look closely at the back of Jack's hand before and after the spot appears..there is a black, ink smudge going from his thumb (where the ring is) onto the back of his hand...

CaptinJackLover
ooo good observation!

Chiki Mina
hmm u really think so im not saying ur wrong...but kinda makes u think

LovelyOne
I think that she's calypso in disguize and wants davy J back for GOOD not just once every 10 or so years..and she is intervening to make Will mirror what happned to Davy Jones..why would she WANT this Will/davy thing to happen? Well I think its because for davy to be able to walk on land for good the Dutchman is GOING to need a new captain...and Will seems perfectly suited..and she shows a BIG interest in his "destiny" in movie 2.. she seems to be behind alot of the reasons why Will is losing Liz...

I dont think Davy Knows Tia is calypso just yet..he's still all bitter and horrible..

Chiki Mina
wel cant they resotre his heart so everything goes back to normal?? Cant the kraken along w the flying dutchman be lost at sea forever while davy gets his life back??

LovelyOne
Davy cant leave it unless someone else is on there in his place and if you take him away from it he will probably die (magic cant solve that), he can only go on land like once avery 20 years.. so in order for Davy to get off of there and live on land for good..there NEEDS to be a new heart and a new captain..and Tia WANTS davy to come back to her So Tia has her eye on Will..and is making things happen so he mirrors Davy Jones..thats my theory anyway smile..it seems to fit in with everything I've seen so far..

LovelyOne
Not saying that it should happen..I think Tia is going to be stopped..and Will's dad is going to step in and knock some sense into Will..

willofthewisp
Does it say someone always has to command the Dutchman? I'm really going for this, and I believe you, but I have a question. If she's so untameable, why is she the one taking all these elaborate steps to win him back? Is she going to become a one-man woman? Because if that's the case, and it still mirrors Will and Liz, that only hints at Liz going back to Will, which would mean all the scenes with Jack were just to tease us, and I don't think that's the case.

-savvychick-
o...i hope not!!!!!!!!

-savvychick-
but if they put in all those jack/liz scenes just 2 tease us...when the next movie comes around...there's gonna be a realy disappointed audience...and that would hurt the ratings...BADLY...so wat would the point of that be???

sailorleo
to keep ppl like us out of the loop

SparrowSavvy
Ah... I was under the impression that the Black Spot reappeared because three days had passed without having gotten the souls. They left Tortuga with only five extra people plus Elizabeth. I think the implication that three days had already passed is more plausible than the implication that the ring is what caused it to reappear; if so, then their cue was far too subtle for all but the most observant/obsessive fan to notice. They would have shown the ring more clearly when he stole it, I saw very little focus on the ring at all. The focus on his hand at the end is not showing the ring, but the manacles.

While I can agree that Tia has an ulterior motive, I don't think that it was to 'set up' Jack and Elizabeth. I fully realize that this may get me my fair share of flames (likely more...), but Jack/Elizabeth is meant to be specious. Elizabeth is the only female we really get to see Jack interact with, and I'd imagine his charm isn't put up solely for her. I have difficulty seeing someone of his character making any sort of commitment to any person, man woman, first mate, harlot, though I can see him depending on them moment-by-moment, it's not a permanent thing. I'm not saying he's not a good man at heart, but he does rather have a thing for freedom, and he comes and goes as he likes.

Him returning to the Pearl after he started to run was not entirely for Elizabeth's sake. At that moment when he flipped out his compass, his ship, his crew, and a number of friends were at stake. A man who refused to transport slaves, at the expense of his own good name and turning him into an outlaw, would not leave behind people who had previously saved his life. Elizabeth was part of the equation, yes... but likely not as a love interest. There was more at stake than just Elizabeth. What comes to my mind is something JD said in the commentary of the first movie during the island scene... 'He just really thinks he's going to get lucky.'

He can commit to objects, places, even morals, but committing to another person is not something I could see him doing. It's not that he doesn't care for anyone, it's that he can't be held down and committing to anyone other than himself would require him to hold back. Elizabeth 'setting out to show him how to love' or whatever it is is a great idea for fanfiction, and fun to squeal about, but it's likely not going to happen. She can try, but her mission will be in vain. There will most certainly be more of a focus on Jack/Elizabeth in the next movie, but the end may disappoint those of you who support such things. I believe it's merely a lack of interaction with other women in the movies that is a touch misleading. Scarlet and Giselle are partly for comic relief, though I imagine they'll make more of a proper comeback in installment number three, and be more than merely a silly scene. That's not to say they'll be a romantic possibility, but they'll certainly run interference, and may even give us more of a chance to see that he generally treats most women the same.

The teaser kiss was also misleading. Though it was subtle, I think they were in fact both talking about sex, or right opposite to the OP and Elizabeth was talking about true committment. Said cannon is not near Elizabeth, but right under Jack's nose at a fairly... interesting height.

'Why doesn't your compass work?' Most likely meaning moral compass.

'My compass works fine.' Misunderstanding on his part, believing her to be talking about a subject that's more to his interests. The immediate pull back showing the cannon so conveniently placed helps to mark how exactly he misunderstood her.

Here's something of an opposite perspective, put very beautifully.

h ttp:// users.livejournal.com/ paperfaces_/ 89464.html

On Calypso and the Captain; I think there's some parallel to Jack and Tia's characters in that both are untameable. Tia may see Davy Jones, but he'll be all the more bitter with the fact that she's moved on. I think that may have been the problem to begin with-- she moved on from him, and he couldn't take it ('It was not worth feeling what fleeting dry life brings') so he removed his heart, and in doing so THAT was what keeps him at sea, only being able to return to land once every ten years, never able to make port properly. It's also quite possible that Tia cursed him to such a fate, though him removing his heart would be not of the curse, but of his own doing. I'm not sure how tempted she will be to go back to him, if they were even rightfully together at all, though the token locket implies so. He doesn't know Tia is Calypso, because he hasn't actually seen her yet since she came into the picture. I suspect he'll know her on sight which may not be until well into the third movie. It is a rather exciting plot turn. =D

Some closing remarks- The ink smudge on the back of his hand was in the first movie, and technically it's there to cover a tattoo that would be out of place in the movie.

(PS... it's 'torch of destiny' XD)

CaptinJackLover
hey sparrow savvy how did you get that many pics in your siggy? ive been trying to do that but it wont let me

SparrowSavvy
XD I put them all on the same bitmap. It's just one image file.

LovelyOne
Originally posted by sailorleo
to keep ppl like us out of the loop

Its the teaser moment of the trilogy just like they use "almost kisses" in the middle of each film..Liz tends to kiss whoever she does that with in the movie..and if you look at the trilogy..It's Jack who she has the teaser relationship with during the middle film.

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And Davy probably still wants Calypso back..you rip out your heart for someone..prrety much says "look what you are making me do..come back for me waaa! look its ALL FOR YOU!"

Maybe Calypso has seen how ruthless and untamable Davy has become...and now she WANTS HIM back..

But Will becoming like Davy AINT gonna turn Liz on..Thats where Will's dad will step in I think..and tell Will that He and Liz's relationship together is heading into a horrible place if they stick together it wont work..its already NOT WORKING..Will is probably going to learn to let her go...which is probably the best thing to do..

LovelyOne
So why does the ring only appear when Liz's feelings for Jack are leading to a place of fear? its made to be hugly obvious in both scenes...and not at any other time..the "persuade me scene" it was absent...because that was still ONLY a sexual impliation..it wasnt about love..

Jack also puts it on just as he starts talking about being vexed over a woman..

One of Davy's men or davy himself needs to touch Jack to add or remove the black spot..and the fact that Jack has ink coming from the ring on his thumb al the way to the back of his hand is a big hint that Davy's ink is in the ring itself. Jack being a dirty man probably doesnt even realize that big fat smudge on his thumb and back of his hand..

EDIT - Ok imma look at that smudge of in in the first movie laughing out loud

But the directors have said there is going to be a huge backstory for Tia..and it must have been pretty present in the most recent film for there to be such a huge one added later on..

LOL sparrowsavvy..you are one of those people who think Jack is a one dimensional character who is incapable of change..by the end of the trilogy a character like JS needs to at least learn something about himself before it ends..and in his casse its more than obvious..he wants someone to love...read the Jack = The dog theory (not the first post..scroll down a bit to find the better post)..and also read the Liz = the heart..believe me JACK IS AFTER LIZ's Heart

Oh and there is this..which is more implication that Jack is in fact after HER and not the real chest:

Liz is wearing Jacks missing hat through out the movie until the moment he gets it back from the kraken..meaning he has won her over before he dies..It also resembles that Liz is the missing part of him and he is the missing part of her..its like a little puzzle piece..I'ts made to look REALLY obvious when its a one on one thing with her and Jack..Its not the same hat she used to escape from the men..that was a straw hat..this one comes out of NOWHERE and its made to look obvoius that she's suddenly wearing it just as Jack has come out of the tavern after trying on lots of different hats but leaving unsatisfied..then hello hello the miissing part of him comes strolling back into his life..Jack begins to calm down..

LovelyOne
Loving a person holds jack DOWN?..LMAO he blew up a kraken and even jumped into the mough of hell ALL TO PROTECT THE WOMAN HE LOVES laughing out loud..its MORE than obvious that he needs love to be as brave and as fearless as he CLAIMED to be in movie 1..when we find out its a big fat Lie...now that he has someone who he loves and wants to protect...HE will do amazing and brave things..to protect the person he loves

By the end of movie 1 the script writers say that with each character..they end up doing something they NEVER WOULD HAVE DONE judging by the beginning of the film


you look at the trilogy as a whole you can see that Jack who was SO determined not to love a person is now beginning to..and I bet that its going to end where he does..and that person is going to be Liz..Jack is going to end up doing something he never would have done at the beginning of the trilogy..which is love someone..

The writers intensly dislike book ends..where something starts and ends exactly the same..that goes for characters..relationships character priorities...

LovelyOne
there are lots and lots of hints that suggest Jack's compass is pointing at Liz the entire time..the main thing being the parallel story where Jack is after Davy's key/chest but his compass is telling him that he wants to be the key to Liz's heart and It's Liz he who he wants most.

Tia helps him gain both at the same time. Its a whole heart vs brain thing going on with Jack..and thats whats happening with Liz too. Its what they think they should be wanting more vs..what they REALLY WANT..Liz doesn't accept what the heart wants..but Jack does..

"not all treasure is of silver and gold mate"

See Jack just ending up learning to do the "right thing" for his friends/people is a book end..he's like that ANYWAY as a character..we see that at the beginning of movie 1. him ending up loving someone...is NOT a book end..and i think thats what the writers are aiming for..

The compass is pointing at Liz..it's more than obvious by the end of the movie with the whole chest/Liz thing..the whole parallel story ofgaining the metal key/key to her heart..gaining the heart/her heart at the end by protecting it from the shell baddie/kraken....that was to show the audience that he is doing it for her more than ANYONE else in that end scene..

lovethemtigers
"Jack Sparrow" have you read All Clues Point to jack and elizabeth...you see some of the symbolism and clues....unlike LovelyOne..I'm not as committed to all the theories...some are a little out there IMO - but she is a film study student....I just love Johnny Depp, Jack Sparrow and the Pirate Movies....

I don't think that Jack is in love with Elizabeth throughout the movie, but I do think he is developing feelings for her that are more than his usual lust toward any person of the opposite sex....Jack is flirting with her - and it's obvious by all his comments that it's about sex....but I do think it is more than just Sex.

I always thought - IMO - when she says "Why doesn't your compass work?" She is confused by her developing feelings for Jack - his close proximity is getting to her - that's why she is troubled - IMO - in the beginning of the curiosity scene....she is suppose to be in love with Will, but she finds herself thinking about and seeing Jack in a whole new light...she definitely has hero-worship for Jack...thats obvious...I thought - the first time I saw the movie, over a month ago (but have since seen it 4 more times...and watched the clips over and over) - that she was refering to how the compass points to Jack when she holds it...and if the compass is suppose to point to the thing you want most in this world...then why does it keep pointing to Jack...
and once again....why would the writers put the scene in where Norrington aknowledges the fact that Liz is "thinking" about Jack with a smile on her face...and how he would have given anything for her to look like that when thinking about him...and she says "I don't know what you mean" and he says "oh, I think you do..." and then she says "don't be absurd, I trust him that's all." to me her whole mannerisms in this scene...were like, oh no I've been caught daydreaming about Jack...and Sorry, but it's obvious they are talking about Jack and not Will...she is not thinking about Will at all in this scene....

And besides...true love always starts off as a sexual attraction....and it is thousands time stronger between Jack and Liz then Will and Liz....and to say that Jack can't settle for one woman...well if Jack stayed exactly as he did in the first movie and never changed....then he would have no character development....the writers have said we will see a side of Jack Sparrow that was never expected in the first movie.....

But I guess we shall see... i for one will be sorely disappointed if they just sweep POTC 2 under the rug and say "oh the whole jack and liz thing was just to take up space...it didn't really mean anything." Yeah Right.

lovethemtigers
I don't really think Tia is controlling the Jack and Liz relationship...and IMO I hope she is not...cuz I like the fact that Jack and Liz are acting on their impluses...also, I didn't really notice the ring till Lovelyone pointed it out...still haven't noticed it the ending scene...i'll keep looking...but like "jack sparrow" i just assumed the spot reappears cuz his three days are up...it can reapear in that way...that was davy jones' pact with jack....

LovelyOne
they are acting on their own impulses...I doubt that she is controlling their emotions..she's just making certain events take place in order for them to realize their love to. There is the whole fact that Tia knew Jack was going to die..she had the means to bring him back before any of the events took place...the ring has to mean something in the movie otherwise it would be incredibly pointless for him to wear it..ans what was the point of making it obvious in only 3 instances in the movie? All revolving around Liz and Jack realizing they are beginning to love l each other....the ring has a fat black spot in the middle of it....and its also really suspicious that Becket says "wedding stopped or fate intervening" to Liz. I think that Tia has been speaking to him..he is the only one with the legal power to stop the wedding...and thus the Will/Davy crap can start..

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Jack sparrow doesn't need to learn to love someone SaprrowSavvy..I'm pretty sure he is capable of it..and he doesnt need to learn to put himself before others..he does that anyway...he's been doing it since before we even met him..He just needs to learn to let someone in, close to him for once and keep them there..

Tia even gives him a hint of what not to do with Liz now that he has won over her heart..when he puts the heart in the jar foolishy thinking that it's safe and that he has it to himself..then realizes its not in there (its been taken)...he is terrified..In movie 3 apparently Jack hands liz over to sao feng thinking she will be safe for one night and that he will see her again..but she gets kidnapped AGAIN by Norrington and the EITC...thats gonna make him realize DAMN IT I cant keep doing this to Liz if i want to keep her...

lovethemtigers
How do you know that in POTC 3 Jack hands her over to the chinese pirate thinking it's only going to be for one night and then she is kidnapped by Norrington and the EITC - where did you find this information????

lovethemtigers
It sounds exciting, though...it will be great to see him panic over Liz and try to figure out how he is going to get her back....I think Norrington could make a deal with Liz...maybe he tell her something, Like Marry Me and we will Let Jack Sparrow go free....she will sacrifice herself for Jack...but then Jack finds out and he tells Norrington the deal is off and springs Liz from Jail and tells her to go off and be with Will where she is safe and she begs him not to....at this point they both realize how much they love each other...but is willing to sacrifice that love so that the other one can be free...Jack is willing to turn himself into Beckett and Norrington in exchange for Liz's freedom...but somehow in the end...it all works out...Norrington finally getting fed up with Beckett and deciding to let Liz and Jack both go free....now that would be great...but I know it's way off course...so I'll just continue to dream about things I would like to see take place in POTC 3....

LovelyOne
There was a competition winner who won the first 56 pages of the draft script...he put them on myspcace and Disney made him take them off laughing out loud.I thought to myself why would they let people see this?..Iget the feeling that they gave those out is because there are already hints at the end of movie 2 as to what is going to happen with Liz at the beginning of movie 3..they match up perfectly with what happens in those first few pages they released.

LovelyOne
I also think that its been confirmed by the director that this happens to Liz..there are confirmed spoilers and there are just plain theories..I think the whole sao leaked script thing was confirmed to be true..

form wikipedia:
The first fifty-seven pages of an early draft of the script have leaked online. Co-writer Ted Elliot confirmed on the website KeepToTheCode.com that this is a portion of an extremely early "budget draft" of the script, and while some of the broad strokes of the story are consistent with the final version, specific events and dialogue are very rough when compared with the final film, and these pages do not reflect the final film's writing or quality. This early, rough version of the script shows Will Turner, Elizabeth Swann, and Barbossa traveling to the Orient and confronting Captain Sao Feng in search of charts that lead to "World's End". Feng is captain of the red-sailed pirate ship Empress, and hosts a mysterious "dragon lady" onboard his ship. Another element of the ride is represented in this version of the script, when Will, Barbossa and their crew sails their ship; an oriental junk named Hai Peng; off the "end of the world" a huge, straight drop in the middle of the ocean, mimicking the large drops found on the Pirates of the Caribbean theme park attraction. Jack Sparrow and the Black Pearl are found in Davy Jones' Locker, a kind of purgatory made up of nothing but sand and strange crabs with swords. Will is intent on retrieving the Black Pearl as it is the only ship with the speed necessary to overtake the Flying Dutchman and therefore rescue his father Bootstrap Bill Turner. This version of the script shows that Commodore James Norrington has Davy Jones and his crew at his command, having captured his heart in the second film.

lovethemtigers
Originally posted by LovelyOne
There was a competition winner who won the first 56 pages of the draft script...he put them on myspcace and Disney made him take them off laughing out loud.I thought to myself why would they let people see this?..Iget the feeling that they gave those out is because there are already hints at the end of movie 2 as to what is going to happen with Liz at the beginning of movie 3..they match up perfectly with what happens in those first few pages they released.

Really, I saw a script too somewhere but don't remember the part about Jack handing Liz over to the Chinese guy...oh well...guess all we can do is wait and wait and wait and see....Gosh, LovelyOne I sure hope all your theories are right...I sure hope I'm right about all the clues pointing to Jack and Liz....or I will be sorely disappointed...if it all goes screwy...I guess we can have a pity party on here and Jessigm (?) can laugh at all of us....I sure would hate to think that everything that happened in POTC 2 was just a waste of time...gosh, if you think about POTC 2 - there are really no WIll/Liz moments...except the jail scene and when he shows up at the island....she doens't even run to Will when he falls from the cargo net...instead she climbs up the stairs and hangs on to Jack's leg...I don't know about everyone else...but that is a very intimate moment...to cling to someone's leg like that....and then what about at the end...course I know what...so Liz can kiss Jack (that's the way it is suppose to be)...but you would think that the character of Will would have made sure that Liz got into the longboat before anyone else...he just starts getting in himself and then he looks up and sees Liz kissing Jack...and again, as we have said time and time again....if Jack really wanted to get off that boat...he could have hollared down to Gibbs to come help him...he could have pleaded with Liz to please don't leave him there....he would have cowared from the Kracken as he had been doing the entire movie...but now that he has been kissed by Liz...it's like all of a sudden he faces the Kracken with all the power and might that he can muster...facing it with sword in hand ready to conquer....if it had not been for the kiss...he would have tried to jump overboard or something...throughout the whole movie he is scared to death of the Kracken..now he faces it like a Warrior...love it.

I know you know all this LovelyOne - I just like rehasing all this to keep reminding myself what this movie is all about..and to let the non-believers try to see where this is headed....how can anyone not notice all these things about the development of jack and liz's characters....

LovelyOne
Originally posted by lovethemtigers
Really, I saw a script too somewhere but don't remember the part about Jack handing Liz over to the Chinese guy...oh well...guess all we can do is wait and wait and wait and see....Gosh, LovelyOne I sure hope all your theories are right...I sure hope I'm right about all the clues pointing to Jack and Liz....or I will be sorely disappointed...if it all goes screwy...I guess we can have a pity party on here and Jessigm (?) can laugh at all of us....I sure would hate to think that everything that happened in POTC 2 was just a waste of time...gosh, if you think about POTC 2 - there are really no WIll/Liz moments...except the jail scene and when he shows up at the island....she doens't even run to Will when he falls from the cargo net...instead she climbs up the stairs and hangs on to Jack's leg...I don't know about everyone else...but that is a very intimate moment...to cling to someone's leg like that....and then what about at the end...course I know what...so Liz can kiss Jack (that's the way it is suppose to be)...but you would think that the character of Will would have made sure that Liz got into the longboat before anyone else...he just starts getting in himself and then he looks up and sees Liz kissing Jack...and again, as we have said time and time again....if Jack really wanted to get off that boat...he could have hollared down to Gibbs to come help him...he could have pleaded with Liz to please don't leave him there....he would have cowared from the Kracken as he had been doing the entire movie...but now that he has been kissed by Liz...it's like all of a sudden he faces the Kracken with all the power and might that he can muster...facing it with sword in hand ready to conquer....if it had not been for the kiss...he would have tried to jump overboard or something...throughout the whole movie he is scared to death of the Kracken..now he faces it like a Warrior...love it.

I know you know all this LovelyOne - I just like rehasing all this to keep reminding myself what this movie is all about..and to let the non-believers try to see where this is headed....how can anyone not notice all these things about the development of jack and liz's characters....

I TOTALLY agree with you!

LOl I know I wont be right with all of the theories..but the obvious 1 is the development of Jack and Liz..people seem to find it SO hard to see Jack possibly changing in character...THATS WHAT ALL GOOD CHARACTERS DO IN TRILOGIES! laughing out loud and no he's not just gonna learn to put people before himself..he does that ANYWAY..See what i notice is that Jack can be in love with one person and still be an ass to everyone else so he still has his good old personality traits..he just cares more for Liz...thats exactly what he does in this movie..he tries so hard not to hurt her or make her scared of him..he handles her as if she is precious to him...she's the only one he will give his beloved objects to to look after..she's the only one HE was looking at just as everyone was discussing leaving the pearl..he was deciding to stay for HER..and I think he would have stayed no matter WHAT..she just chained him up to STOP him from showing he loved her AGAIN and to remove him from her life..because he is one MOTHER of a tempting threat to her..and its ALL because he came back for HER...and SHE SAW IT.

Yes Will betrays Jack and ambushes him with Sao feng because of what he saw Jack do to Liz he says he does it because he doesn't want to see Liz give her heart away to "someone who cant love her" When we all saw that he COULD by the end of movie 2. (put the heart close to his to protect it from the baddies) So will is basically trying to get rid of Jack so that he can have Liz to himself

This symbolizes the part where Jack smacks Will round the head with an oar in movie 2 where Will is about to grab the chest(no heart inside) meaning that he's lost her to Jack

So Jack sends Liz away with Sao Feng for one night so that Will cant have her either (Jack puts the heart into the jar of dirt to hide it) He thinks its safe in there (Jack thinks Liz will be safe for one night on Sao Feng's ship)

Norrington kidnaps the heart from the Jar (sao fengs ship) and takes it with him in a sack to the EITC...

Jack thinks the heart is safe but CRASH..the jar is empty and he is absolutely, bloody terrified..

Jack is probably gonna find out that Liz has been kidnaped and be like "OH MY GOD LIZZIE!!!!" as in HE CARES FOR HER and realizes how STUPID it was to leave her in an unsafe place just so he could win one over on Will..

LovelyOne
Oh also!! Jack may have done that to piss both characters off because Liz being confronted with the whole situationgoes into her typical denial and says "oh its not like that Will!"..and Jacks probably thinking.."OMG I showed you that I loved you and you cold sholder me? and for WILL? that little weakling who cant ever seem to save you? Well fine i'll pretend I dont care about you EITHER! and and leave you in danger for a while see how YOU like it!..and YOU will..YOU cant have her either HA HA!!!"

but when he realizes that she's actually missing and in BIG danger he will probably go after her...He looks as if he is about to cry when thet Jar smashes and the heart isn't there

katelovespirate
Originally posted by LovelyOne
Oh also!! Jack may have done that to piss both characters off because Liz being confronted with the whole situationgoes into her typical denial and says "oh its not like that Will!"..and Jacks probably thinking.."OMG I showed you that I loved you and you cold sholder me? and for WILL? that little weakling who cant ever seem to save you? Well fine i'll pretend I dont care about you EITHER! and and leave you in danger for a while see how YOU like it!..and YOU will..YOU cant have her either HA HA!!!"

but when he realizes that she's actually missing and in BIG danger he will probably go after her...He looks as if he is about to cry when thet Jar smashes and the heart isn't there


i COMPLETELY agree with this 100%... and i think this is where the difficulty will come in. By the time Jack realizes he loves Liz, will it be too late? Will he have to opt out and be noble? ya know?
i definately think Jack is a very FAIR person and he likes to be even with people (i saved your life you saved mine we're square, tracking down barbossa after the mutiny, that sort of thing) so even though i dont think the kiss betrayal bothered him at all (he loved it) i still think he wants to do something similar to her, ya know?

LovelyOne
I dont think he would have done that to her until she showed "no love" towards him for saving her..

It either hurt him and he wanted to hurt her back for a split second without thinking properly OR he wanted to make it even like you said..so there would be NO HARD FEELINGS between them and their relationship could grow a bit more..I mean she wont be feeling all "unworthy of jack now" will she?he THOUGHT he was going to get her back safley either way..so he still WANTED her to be safe...and I think Liz will still have the feelings for him because she knows that Jack didnt put her on there to get kidnaped..she knew that he only put her on there for one night...

there was no possible way for him to make a deal with the EITC to gain her for their own reasons..since he was DEAD and has only just come back..

LovelyOne
He knows he loves her but he's probably pissed off that its taking her so long to embrace him back...He's probably getting tired the denial and lack of appreciation she keeps showing..he could see she wanted him before she left on the pearl..(almost kiss) so its like "oh for GOD'S SAKE come ON"

SparrowSavvy
I never said that I didn't think he could change. On the contrary, I believe him to be an incredibly dynamic character that will continually surprise us, showing and doing things that go against his initial persona, even when we look at his past canon. He does make a large effort to maintain a certain persona despite all the colours beneath. Changes that drastic, or changes in that direction don't quite fit into that dynamic.

I believe we'll be surprised in another way. Think of it this way; the claim is that he'll do something we don't expect... you're all expecting him to get together with Elizabeth, ultimately. I don't think this is the huge big surprise if he doesn't, though it may be part of something larger and more unexpected.

I also never said that he needed to be taught to love. I saw that that was what the majority of people here seemed to be implying. I fully understand that it will be difficult for me to maintain my case surrounded by people who vehemently support this pairing, no matter how good my evidence is. The evidence presented to me so far in favor of this pairing has seemed weak to me, at times going radically overboard, depending too much on material things, and as such my case is against it. I don't ignore the theory threads, many of them contributed to my opinion. I do believe that Elizabeth is developing feelings for him, and vice versa, and that the feelings Jack has for her are different than what's normal for him. He can and may well fall in love with Elizabeth, though any actual 'getting together' will be short-lived. That's not to say I support her returning to Will. In fact, I believe she'll end up with neither man. I'm convinced, based on the characters, that this 'love triangle' will end in a dead end, though it won't be for naught. Because a story line or plot bunny is started that doesn't end in the way we want or expect, that doesn't mean it's been swept under the rung as filler. This is where character development happens, even if it's not a classic Disney ending (Disney ending... made all the more amusing to me by the fact that this is a Disney movie).

I heard that someone here is/was in a film studies class-- my own taught me right off the bat not to look at things that weren't meant to be looked at; some items or scenes or lines are meant just as they are presented, and the director meant them to have no deeper meaning. I think that this ring of Tia Dalma's is such a thing, and a number of other things that many believe to be strong implications are being looked at in a biased light. Jack wears more than one ring on that hand, last I checked. He wears rings on his other hand too. In the first movie he wore nothing on his left hand, but that's equally as much of a non-issue. It was never addressed, and likely never will be. Actors have some say over how they wear their costume, and what he wears and how he wears it changes some over the course of the film. His acquisition of a ring at Tia Dalma's hut is little more than what it's been presented as- he likes to steal shiny things, it's not a doom he brought upon himself, Tia didn't intentionally lay out things for him to steal. She would have watched him, but she didn't. There'd be some other mention, but there wasn't. We'd have seen the ring more clearly, but we didn't.

However, I can agree that with her words Tia has perhaps nudged certain individuals in a particular direction, and likely has an ulterior motive. I doubt her motive is to get back with Jones, or turn someone else into him. Thus far her character has been left wide open, though, so we'll be unable to come to any conclusions until installment number three. I can accept that she's manipulative, though not to such an extreme as to make someone take the same path as the demon of sailors.

It's clear Davy Jones wants her back, but she may not want to have him back. Hence the heart-tearing. If she accepted him, there'd be no reason to tear out his heart. Loving what one cannot have is where such devastating emotion and desperate action come into play.

For now, that's all I can scrape out of my brain. Work was monotonous and lengthy. I am not being intentionally antagonistic, if some think I'm here just for the sake of making you angry o_o. When my view differs from the norm, I find debating the subject frustratingly enjoyable. =)

(And is there any reason you seem to be referring to me as 'Jack Sparrow', quotes and all? ._. )

ivebeendepped43
?

LovelyOne
The ring is meant to look obvious when he takes it..so its meant to look obvious that he is wearing it on his thumb and basically shoving it into the lens of the camera..

Jacks compass was pointing to liz..it was pretty much confirmed by Tia..and Liz resembles the chest that he's really after..there are loads of hints..so Jack WANTS to love liz..and she wants to love him..after all he DOES gain the key to the chest, protects the chest from the baddie and then gains the prize of the heart fair and square..that was how he DID win Liz over in the movie..when he came back for her..protected her from the kraken and Jack won her over because of it.

There are about umpteen hints in the movie that they are soul mates..

She is suddenly wearing Jack's missing hat as soon as she bumps into him... he emerges from the tavern after trying on lots of different ones feeling unsatisfied..leaving with nothing then the missing part of his life basically strolls right up to him..

Also..you aren't meant to spot things straight away with this film..you are supposed to spot the hints the second or third time you see it..the obvious doesn't need to be so obvious that you pick it up straight away..thats what makes the movie so compelling and enigmatic..thats why so many people are talking about it..On the surface it looks one way but beneath..its a whole different story.

ivebeendepped43
ok....

LovelyOne
SPAMMER^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ laughing out loud

oh shit i spammed..........

ivebeendepped43
ya, i really have no clue whats giong on, so im just gonna leave.....*walks out*

LovelyOne
SparrowSavvy

they could very well shock us..but most people WANT there to be a Jack/Liz thing.

The script writers will also have to think about what the audience will gain from the overall trilogy..its a summer, block buster movie series. Its not an independent film/trilogy where they can end it in a weird way and get praise for it..if they do that with pirates then it will go down as a pretty disliked movie/franchise....they NEED to please the mass audience..who are expecting a happy fun blockbuster movie/trilogy.

They know how to capture an audience with a single film their "kiss rule" they mentioned in movie 1 commentary being the main thing:..

Beginning: are the ever gonna hook up?...
Middle: OH THEY ARE!!! WAIT!! damn it they didn't kiss!!! oh COME ON!sad
End:OH YES THEY HAVE!!! ULTIMATE HAPPY!

So they use their "Kiss rule" over the trilogy too as its GOT to please the mass audience
Movie 1:..OH no chance Jack will ever get her..
Movie 2:OH WAIT WHATS THIS JACK/LIZ? eek!....damn there might not be chance sad
Movie 3: YES THEY HAVE GOT TOGETHER..ultimate HAPPY for the mass audience!

SparrowSavvy
So you've said on a number of occasions, LovelyOne, but I'm still thoroughly unconvinced that that's any more than fan speculation, and reading too much into things.

The compass wasn't pointing at Liz, the compass pointed erratically between several (three or more) different places in rather opposing directions. He does not place the ring on during the talk of women being what vexes all men, he takes it right when she leaves the room. The other two rings (one of which has a black stone set into it, coincidentally) are equally as obvious, even in the teaser scene. They're all huge and gaudy.

All the ideas for saving the ship from the Kraken came from Will. Jack redeemed his fleeing the ship by returning and being the one to complete the plan. The plan was not his, so I think some credit should go to Will here. Going back to help did win Jack points, but I'm still not convinced that it was only, or even mostly for Elizabeth's sake.

As for the hat, her entire attire was different from when she was on the merchant ship, so it's more likely that she chose a different disguise so she wouldn't be recognized by the crew of that ship that went ashore. She's wearing different clothes from the 'ghost' scene to when she steps into the tavern when Norrington starts to fight. While being a tricorne, it was not Jack's hat.

As for the majority... I know what the majority is for young women, and that's reflected by this forum which seems to be composed of nothing but. The majority in terms of the actual majority of the POTC audience... it's all across the scale, but overall, I've gathered from family and coworkers, and friends alike that Jack/Elizabeth is a no go, and she'll end up with Will. Sparrington and Shipshipper fans are a minority, and I believe that in the end taking all the audience into account, Elizabeth/Jack fans are also a minority, though probably not by much. Sparrington and Shipshipping will remain in the realm of fanfiction, and will not show at all in the movie. A happy ending with Elizabeth and Jack... I think will also remain in fanfiction and dreams.

Jacky Sparrow
awful idea!!!!!!!!!!!!! sad

LovelyOne
Originally posted by SparrowSavvy
So you've said on a number of occasions, LovelyOne, but I'm still thoroughly unconvinced that that's any more than fan speculation, and reading too much into things.


The compass wasn't pointing at Liz, the compass pointed erratically between several (three or more) different places in rather opposing directions. He does not place the ring on during the talk of women being what vexes all men, he takes it right when she leaves the room. The other two rings (one of which has a black stone set into it, coincidentally) are equally as obvious, even in the teaser scene. They're all huge and gaudy.

Ok forget about the ring

the compass was.Why would it point in different places and not be explained one way or another to the audience?...IT WAS explained..but in a very very subtle way(mainly from Tia)..there were various hints and symbolic things telling us that it was her he's after and not just Davy's chest. There is no denying that the chest resembles Liz..and all the 3 men who have ever been involved romantically with her are FIGHTING OVER IT...and it resembles exactly what happened in the movie..Will lost the key to it because he was more concerned about his father instead of Liz (he wanted the chest to save his dad) Norringiton was only concerned about saving face when it comes to Liz..(norrington wants the and the heart to save face with the EITC) why would the compass suddenly work for Jack and point to the chest when Liz is basically sitting on the chest resembling the REAL chest/heart he wants..why would it only work right there for him? and then again later when he looked at the ship?



If it was for everyone else then the scene wouldn't revolved so heavily around Liz and Jack..and that whole curiosity conversation where they were telling each other how to best win one another over wouldn't have been needed in the movie..They portrayed Jack in a typically god like manner to Elizabeth..he looks down at her with a reassuring look as if to confirm that he is there for her..she clings onto the leg of her hero..and later on..there is more proof that he is thinking about saving only her. Whilst everyone else is looking at will talking about leaving the ship..there is a long shot with ALL of the characters..everyone is looking at Will..but Jack is looking RIGHT at Liz..deciding that he wants to stay there for her..seconds later there is more evidence that he would have stayed..Liz chains him up but he actually hears the gingle of the chain..stops kissing and stares at her waiting to see if she will actually do it..she does we hear a loud CLANK and he smiles..meaning he could have escaped but it obviously wasn't on his mind..he wanted to stay there and fight for her...



Yes its obviously not the same hat..its a symbolic thing..if it wasn't meant to mean anything then why was there that whole random "Jack trying on hats and leaving unsatisfied moment" JUST BEFORE he meets Liz WEARING a similar hat to his missing one she wears it in every scene with Jack..Towards the end she doesn't have it on...and you know why? because JACK has just won her over..he dies knowing what he wants..he gets his hat back and wears it proudly..he jumps with a massive confidence into the mouth of the kraken.



Ok so lets just ignore their successful "kiss rule" rule that keeps the seperate movie and trilogy gripping..they will just tease everyone with a what if and then say NOPE!..The audience want to see jack get what he wants...he is the main character..almost everywhere I have been on the net/college/workplace people have said that teaser Jack/Liz relationship gripped them..its what makes them want to see the next "is she going to end up with him? I hope so!" We all know how Layah ending up with Hans solo instead of luke is what kept the Star Wars trilogy all the more memorable for the audience..and all the more exciting..

LovelyOne
The compass was settling on different places because Liz was on the MOVE..when she comes into his life again we don't actually see him look at it when she;s around him..its only twice where we see it points to her..one obvious and the other not so obvious.

I can understand why Disney are choosing to hint that Jack is after her and vise versa instead of actually telling the audience flat out

They are hinting becuase its still only the middle of the trilogy..its the "what if? possible relationship" moment of the story as a whole..just like the "what if kiss moment" they usually place in the middle of their seperate movies..the script writers have their patterns..they know how to keep an audience gripped and ulitmatley please them in the end.

They have to remember that movie 2 is still movie on its own so they need to confirm raised questions to the audience.. like the compass ...but they dont have to be obvious..YET..

LovelyOne
want to know what the most high rated, most watched Pirates of the caribbean DMC clip was on youtube before it was removed?



the Jack/Liz KISS

It was also the most popular when I searched PotC CotbP laughing out loud

Its what the majority audience loved to see.

no one even bothered put up the Will/Liz kiss on youtube...laughing out loud because no one gives a shit about that..or their relationship continuing..really..who the heck is going to be satisfied with that? .Its the fans of that who are in the minority...becasue they are only a minority of the audience who go there to just see him..everyone else goes to see Jack..and if Jack shows he wants something..Jack gets..

SparrowSavvy
The Leia/Han Solo thing is a strange argument to take, seeing as Leia and Luke were siblings, and there should not logically be anything between them.... I could go on about that, but it's another fandom.

On the Isle de la Cruzes, the compass WAS pointing at the chest. Jack happened to be standing in the same direction as the chest relative to Elizabeth. When she sits frustrated, the compass still works for her, turning about just in time for Jack to see the location of the thing, or he knew for certain he wanted the chest as he came 'within range' of the compass, rather than being loathe to claim it as his own. Were it working for Jack and pointing only to Elizabeth... I suppose the chest just happened to be exactly under her at that very moment in the very place she chose to sit down, and he decided that this was the case? It's pointing at Elizabeth, therefore the chest must be exactly there? Maybe it'd be right under her if she were three feet to the left? This is what I see with your reasoning on this.

This makes the compass pointing at Jack after the conversation with Norrington confusing, and can only be explained by saying that after she came to the realization that Jack sold Will for his own safety, this made him not quite the thing she wanted most. There's a bit of inconsistency. The compass was pointing to the chest on the island, otherwise that's the most enourmous and completely unfathomable coincadence I've seen in film this year. Pointing at Jack, she happened to follow him, and he happened to pause at the very spot where the chest was, and when he came close enough to the compass, it turns out it points to Elizabeth, not the chest, but oh she happens to be right on top of it. Not believable.

I suppose it's rather useless attempting any sort of debate with people who aren't willing to see the other side in any way shape or form. I had been taking your views and opinions into account, despite your radical support theories, I did consider. It seems to be one sided, as you are adamantly against all possibility of my opinion.

LovelyOne
trust me once we see the third we will be thinking OH YEAH!! the compass WAS pointing to Liz all along..look Tia mentions it!

there are also confimed spoilers by Disney:
that Will and Davy talk for a while and they both find out they have something in common "Jack sparrow steals their women" so jack WANTS ELIZABETH!..

katelovespirate
Oh SparrowSavvy, dont be offended by us! big grin We are just having fun. Disney has really backed itself into a corner, IMO, there is no good way for this to end, but if Liz ends up with Will, everyone will be a mite disappointed. Come on. It's all about chemistry. haha.

perhaps we ARE totally nuts and just living a dream, but its fun. LOL. And hey, maybe Disney will go fan-fic and get this right.

SparrowSavvy
Disney going fanfic would rock my socks. It certainly would be interesting to see a Jack/Elizabeth happy ending (though... don't we all secretly want our Jack to be single? I suppose there's always Norrington).

But man it's difficult to talk to rabid fangirls sometimes XD ('Why yes, I do think Rufus Shinra is an unhinged pompous prince that doesn't belong with his employees in any relationships.' *gets beaned repeatedly*)

LovelyOne
Originally posted by SparrowSavvy
The Leia/Han Solo thing is a strange argument to take, seeing as Leia and Luke were siblings, and there should not logically be anything between them.... I could go on about that, but it's another fandom.

Think though..they made movie 1 without really knowing about making another 2...they knew that if he audience likes hans solo the loveable rogue alot..they will give the girl to that character...Instead of the "safe" one..Everyone loved Hans so they made up the "brother and sister" excuse to allow that to happen.

With PotC its the same..Jack was a VERY risky character to add in..they made it so the girl ended up with the "safe" character..but also gave you a taster of Jack/Liz together..it proved to be well liked..and Jack sparrow is now one of th most loveable rogues in movie history...so they will make the girl end up with that character now that they know its safe to do so.

They cant actually use the brother sister thing becuase they shot themselves in the foot with that one laughing out loud In movie 1 Will's and Liz's blood didn't match with the medallions..what we have in its place is a Davy/Will possible similarity/alliance


Now if Liz was standing on the chest the compass point wouldn't have settled in a direct location. But it did..it settled firmly on Jack.

even if the compass was slowly leading her to the chest..we never saw it..every time she looked at it it pointed directly at Jack..even the first moment she held it..before Norringin (as I recall)

I never once heard any confirmation that the compass still works for the person once they put it on the floor and stop looking at it..Once again..I think the writers are making it less obvious that Jack wants Liz at this moment..they way he suggests that "yes it does" and the way the camera pans and lingers on those words is a very suggestive moment..it also looks as if its a sneaky message to the audience..the compass is in no ones hands..It sort of trying to hint to US that these two want eachother..it points to jack, to Liz then back to Jack again then to liz...




AH now Norrington!..he can SEE what is going on with all the characters..he seems to just know EVERYTHING about their feelings for one another etc. He is quite often giving them a roll eyes (sarcastic) look whenever they show denail about what they feel (liz on the pearl and on the beach)

Norrington still fancies his chances with Liz..He has just spotted Liz smirking over what Jack has just suggested to her about sex..he interupts her from her daydream and she looks shocked that he's there..she tries to compose herself..Norrington says to her that she has feelings for Jack and Liz is in a bunch of denail..Now norrington has his chance..he probably knows the compass will probably point at Jack..so makes her question her faith in Jack..and hello the compass points right at him..SCORE 1 for Corrie Norrie



I do accept your opinion...but its clear that Liz resembles the chest. Jack wants it most so he wins it..even the very way he wins it is echoed when he wins Liz over at the end..Tia even suggets that he's after more than one chest..when she questions him about his compass

there's even a hint at the end of movie 2 as to what is going to happen with Liz/Jack next in movie 3..and I have read the confirmed first 57 pages of the draft script..and what we see with the heart/will/Jack/Norrington Jar of dirt at the end happens to Liz at the beginning of movie 3..its to a TEE..

katelovespirate
no rabid fangirls here! just lovely ladies who appreciate the brilliance of Jack Sparrow's character, and the fun surrounding these films. hehee. smile

LovelyOne
I'm honestly not even a fan girl..The only reason I'm showing interest in this Jack/Liz stuff is because I'm a film studies student who loves spotting hidden meanings in movies..PotC is teeming with them! Especially Jack/Liz ones..and Davy/Will ones Tia/Jack..Tia/Will..Chest/Liz Black spot/Will dog/Jack

I was right when I guessed about the Davy/Will thing after studying certain scenes..people shot me down completley when I first mentioned it but then the director confirmed that it was a factor in the next movie in an interview..So ever since then I haven't stopped laughing out loud

lovethemtigers
Originally posted by SparrowSavvy
The Leia/Han Solo thing is a strange argument to take, seeing as Leia and Luke were siblings, and there should not logically be anything between them.... I could go on about that, but it's another fandom.

Right...but in Star Wars (1977) it was not known that Luke and Leia were siblings...so the possiblity of them being a couple was very real...many a young girl back then wanted to see Luke with Leia..

On the Isle de la Cruzes, the compass WAS pointing at the chest. Jack happened to be standing in the same direction as the chest relative to Elizabeth. When she sits frustrated, the compass still works for her, turning about just in time for Jack to see the location of the thing, or he knew for certain he wanted the chest as he came 'within range' of the compass, rather than being loathe to claim it as his own. Were it working for Jack and pointing only to Elizabeth... I suppose the chest just happened to be exactly under her at that very moment in the very place she chose to sit down, and he decided that this was the case? It's pointing at Elizabeth, therefore the chest must be exactly there? Maybe it'd be right under her if she were three feet to the left? This is what I see with your reasoning on this.

Oh this is so wrong...the compass is pointing to Jack...why else would liz get mad and say the compass doesn't work ...etc....we've been over this many times on several different threads...my brain is tired and just can't point this out anymore...it is not pointing to the chest...I've watched the scene over and over...now, as far as the compass pointing at Liz here - no one is holding it at that particular moment, so in that case it is pointing to the chest...sorry but what was the purpose of the scene with such emphasis on "the compass points to what you want most in this world" then on two seperate occassions the camera shows Jack while Liz is holding the compass....

This makes the compass pointing at Jack after the conversation with Norrington confusing, and can only be explained by saying that after she came to the realization that Jack sold Will for his own safety, this made him not quite the thing she wanted most. There's a bit of inconsistency. The compass was pointing to the chest on the island, otherwise that's the most enourmous and completely unfathomable coincadence I've seen in film this year. Pointing at Jack, she happened to follow him, and he happened to pause at the very spot where the chest was, and when he came close enough to the compass, it turns out it points to Elizabeth, not the chest, but oh she happens to be right on top of it. Not believable.

Not sure what you are getting at here...but did you totally miss the conversation between Norrington and Liz when he says'''It's a curious thing..." why would disney put that in the movie...it is to make the audience aware that there is something going on and developing between Jack and Liz...UGGGHHHH I just can't keep going over this....

I suppose it's rather useless attempting any sort of debate with people who aren't willing to see the other side in any way shape or form. I had been taking your views and opinions into account, despite your radical support theories, I did consider. It seems to be one sided, as you are adamantly against all possibility of my opinion.

Not adamantly against...but you seem to be ignoring the clues...so if we take your considerations into our calculations....the entire movie of POTC 2 was just fill up time...the only parts that counted was Will on the Flying Dutchman...all the flirtatious and hot, sexy scenes between Liz and Jack were just to fill up time...OMG, the movie should have been over in like...45 minutes then....All I have to say is that if Liz and Will end up back together...then the movie did not evolve at all and I will be very disappointed...because the main character and hero always should get the girl (if they are not related)...and IMO and I'm sure bunches and bunches of others...Jack is the main Character and Hero in these films...in that last scene of POTC 2 we see a new Jack..a jack that is serious and has come to realize that there is more to life than material possessions...just look at Gibbs when Jack says "she's only a ship, mate." OMG....she's only a ship.....hasn't Jack sold his soul for the Black Pearl...didn't he go through great extremes to get the Pearl in POTC 1...now, all of a sudden he's like "it's only a ship, mate...while looking at LIZ ....and I've said this time and time again...what is the purpose of having Liz climb up and hold onto Jack's leg ...when she should have ran down and been there for Will when he drops from the cargo net....it's a curious thing.....I'm sorry but if Disney just passing this off as if nothing ever happened between these two...then I guess I will forever be watching Liz and Jack on the Pearl in POTC 2...and forget all about POTC 3...i'm not a film studies person like Lovelyone...who knows you may could classify me as a fan girl...but I just Love Jack Sparrow...and I think he has great chemistry with Elizabeth Swann....

lovethemtigers
Wow my quote thingy didn't post right...some of my comments are mixed in with the quote from SparrowSavvy oh well....

lovethemtigers
Right...but in Star Wars (1977) it was not known that Luke and Leia were siblings...so the possiblity of them being a couple was very real...many a young girl back then wanted to see Luke with Leia..


Oh this is so wrong...the compass is pointing to Jack...why else would liz get mad and say the compass doesn't work ...etc....we've been over this many times on several different threads...my brain is tired and just can't point this out anymore...it is not pointing to the chest...I've watched the scene over and over...now, as far as the compass pointing at Liz here - no one is holding it at that particular moment, so in that case it is pointing to the chest...sorry but what was the purpose of the scene with such emphasis on "the compass points to what you want most in this world" then on two seperate occassions the camera shows Jack while Liz is holding the compass....


Not sure what you are getting at here...but did you totally miss the conversation between Norrington and Liz when he says'''It's a curious thing..." why would disney put that in the movie...it is to make the audience aware that there is something going on and developing between Jack and Liz...UGGGHHHH I just can't keep going over this....

willofthewisp
"Yes its obviously not the same hat..its a symbolic thing..if it wasn't meant to mean anything then why was there that whole random "Jack trying on hats and leaving unsatisfied moment" JUST BEFORE he meets Liz WEARING a similar hat to his missing one she wears it in every scene with Jack..Towards the end she doesn't have it on...and you know why? because JACK has just won her over..he dies knowing what he wants..he gets his hat back and wears it proudly....." (lovelyone)

Okay, I'm fully convinced of the compass theory. The compass is an integral part of the story, and considering how often it's used, how often it's just mentioned, how it's basically the reason the three characters reuinite in the first place, it's important. And everything it points to is important, and if it points to Jack when Liz holds it (as it does) then we should believe it. If Tia says the compass isn't working for Jack because he wants something he's unsure of or just doesn't know how to get it, you can bet that means he really wants something besides the chest. Even when I watched it at the movie theater and she said that, I thought, "Oh! He'll get a girlfriend! He wants to be loved!!!!!!"

But the hats. Yeah. I don't think this is an integral part of the story. The only time the hat is brought up in the first movie is when Jack wants his things back from Norrington, and any one of us, materialistic or not, would want our gun, compass that points to what we want, and our hat back. But in the second movie, the whole time, does Jack really make that big a deal out of his hat? He's too busy being chased by cannibals, flirting with Liz, and messing with Will and Norrington's minds.
The hat scene, to me, is just comic relief. Jack steals things. Jack may have a hole in his heart that won't let him be satisfied by material possessions, but I will bet anything this scene was written to entertain more than anything else. Anyway, okay, Liz shows up with a hat, the exact article of clothing Jack was looking for. But pretty much all of us have agreed that he's not in love with her when she first shows up. I think most everyone has said it's the "curiosity" scene where he first realizes he's falling for her. Wouldn't that be the time to bring up the hat?

LovelyOne
I dont understand how the main and most loved character of a summer block buster getting the girl is mere fanfic?? That would mean almost every other movie on the planet is fanfic laughing out loud LOL. Ok what ever you say SparrowSavvy

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About the compass on the beach when no one was holding it..I have been taught in film studies that the directors/writers often add in moments where they are trying to tell you what is going on but its flying straight over the main characters heads..And I think that whole compass resting between them, In no ones hands (in the audiences hands) Is telling you that everyone wants these 2 to get together..it doenst just stay in one spot it sort of suggestivly points from Jack to Liz..then Liz to Jack and then back to Liz again..its like its letting us in on the secret it's sort of like making a face behind someones back and they have no idea..but the person in front does (the audience)

LovelyOne
I'ts like saying "we are giving the audience what THEY want most"

katelovespirate
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Jack Sparrow is the money. Give the money the girl. lol.

LovelyOne
Originally posted by willofthewisp
"Yes its obviously not the same hat..its a symbolic thing..if it wasn't meant to mean anything then why was there that whole random "Jack trying on hats and leaving unsatisfied moment" JUST BEFORE he meets Liz WEARING a similar hat to his missing one she wears it in every scene with Jack..Towards the end she doesn't have it on...and you know why? because JACK has just won her over..he dies knowing what he wants..he gets his hat back and wears it proudly....." (lovelyone)

Okay, I'm fully convinced of the compass theory. The compass is an integral part of the story, and considering how often it's used, how often it's just mentioned, how it's basically the reason the three characters reuinite in the first place, it's important. And everything it points to is important, and if it points to Jack when Liz holds it (as it does) then we should believe it. If Tia says the compass isn't working for Jack because he wants something he's unsure of or just doesn't know how to get it, you can bet that means he really wants something besides the chest. Even when I watched it at the movie theater and she said that, I thought, "Oh! He'll get a girlfriend! He wants to be loved!!!!!!"



But the hats. Yeah. I don't think this is an integral part of the story. The only time the hat is brought up in the first movie is when Jack wants his things back from Norrington, and any one of us, materialistic or not, would want our gun, compass that points to what we want, and our hat back. But in the second movie, the whole time, does Jack really make that big a deal out of his hat? He's too busy being chased by cannibals, flirting with Liz, and messing with Will and Norrington's minds.
The hat scene, to me, is just comic relief. Jack steals things. Jack may have a hole in his heart that won't let him be satisfied by material possessions, but I will bet anything this scene was written to entertain more than anything else. Anyway, okay, Liz shows up with a hat, the exact article of clothing Jack was looking for. But pretty much all of us have agreed that he's not in love with her when she first shows up. I think most everyone has said it's the "curiosity" scene where he first realizes he's falling for her. Wouldn't that be the time to bring up the hat?


Why oh why Is Liz's hat completely different to the first one she wears on the ship and then we see her sporting a new one that looks just like Jack's old one right after he has just left feeling uncomfortable without his beloved hat and then there is the fact she wears it right up until after he wins her over..and THEN its absent...and THEN Jack gets it back..he knows he has what he wants and then of course there is the dog with his bone after the credits (in his purgatory)..more symbolism to match up with that.
.
...I'm sorry but in my opinion there is too much continuality and persistance with this whole hat/liz thing throughout the movie to suggest that its all just meaningless comic relief.

If that scene was all meaningless comic relief then it would have been a random thing to place in the movie..I't wouldn't be needed in there at all..even Jack losing his hat wouldn;t be needed in there at all...I didn't even find it all that funny to be honest..I was like WTF? why is this randomness in here..why is he being so picky with hats..why did he even lose his hat in the first place? But then when you see what happens next in the movie with him and Liz.. its all clear as to why they botherd adding that whole little missing hat sub plot into the movie..its all to add to the hints..of Jack and Liz..

LovelyOne
And when you think that the hat resembles Liz.. him losing it earlier on and not going back for it..means that he loves his hat but its not what he thinks should be more important at the moment..whats important is his own life..but later on it is teased infront of him..and then he GETS IT BACK.

Its just like how his compass is pointing to Liz from the very beginning..but he doesnt think that it should be the most important thing to him so he continues persuing the means to save his own skin...and ignores what his heart is telling him to do...but then Liz is teased infront of him and he begins to realize what is more important..his own well being..or her..he proves that its her and he WINS HER OVER..

LovelyOne
when you look at it in further detail

When he is teased with the hat..its not QUITE the real one..so he doesn't get the real one yet..towards the end he does get the real one

When he's teased with Liz..he's not actually worthy of claiming her yet (he's being very dishonest to her)..towards the end..he DOES become worthy of claiming Liz...and as a reward he wins her over

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