The benefits of religions?

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Pandemoniac
Are there truly any, besides their social guidelines that would exist in any civilised society anyhow?
What positive contributions to this world came from religion, and are we better of with or without them?

Alliance
The social guidlines aren't the benefit of religoin.

Religion CAN address the spiritual needs of a person.

Pandemoniac
That is true indeed, but isn't the faith in that case not just a mere make-believe entity to which one can relate to and gain comfort by?
I think true spiritual envelopment is within one's self, and not in the faith of some higher being or person.

Alliance
Yes, but spiritual development can be catalyzed by a supernatural being. There is no one way to do it. Humans will seek comfort, always, even atheists do it by simply saying "it was out of my control."

All spirituality involves probing "forces" that are at least partially beyond human perception. Perhaps its a bit extreme to create a being, but as long as it remains unconscious and inactive in daily life...its not really a big deal. To each his own.

Its when "god" starts judging, interfering in daily life, and becomes conscious that we call Houston.

This leads to the indoctrination of religion, which is where its evils stem from.

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Pandemoniac
Are there truly any, besides their social guidelines that would exist in any civilised society anyhow?
What positive contributions to this world came from religion, and are we better of with or without them?

Religion has, throughout history, been an important part of political control and directing the masses. Indeed, it is hard to imagine certain cultures ever getting off the ground if they hadn't had it.

Alliance
Unfortunately for religion, we had a period called The Enlightenment.

Liberalism, Nationalism, Eagltarianism, Constitutions, Democracy, Communism, Socialism, Facism...ahhhhh.

Since that period, religion as a system of government has and always will be doomed.

But its hard to imagine socities developing without religion (a tribe without its spiritual leader?) There are very few exceptions, and those exceptions are among the most advanced cultures in the Pre-enlightenment world.

Darth Kreiger
Under control of Islam, countries in the middle ages, there were huge advances, and now, the Islamic countries are about 50 years behind, so I guess for every Golden Age, you get a Dark Age with Religion

Pandemoniac
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Religion has, throughout history, been an important part of political control and directing the masses. Indeed, it is hard to imagine certain cultures ever getting off the ground if they hadn't had it.

True, it creates unity and has led to certain prosperous events by that.
But it has also been the cause of just about every war in our history...

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Alliance
Unfortunately for religion, we had a period called The Enlightenment.

Liberalism, Nationalism, Eagltarianism, Constitutions, Democracy, Communism, Socialism, Facism...ahhhhh.

Since that period, religion as a system of government has and always will be doomed.

But its hard to imagine socities developing without religion (a tribe without its spiritual leader?) There are very few exceptions, and those exceptions are among the most advanced cultures in the Pre-enlightenment world.

True. And I was also thinking of it as a tool of governments in the ancient world - the use of divinity, in the hands of a small elite, to gain that authority. In most ways I believe civilisation has moved well beyond this in the modern world - religion no longer has inherent politically benefits simply because it is religion - rather it is doing what it should do - address those who need its spiritual questions.



Or not so much the religion or the god it represents, but rather the politically skilled way it is used.

Alliance
The best part is Islam saved us from the Christian Dark ages.

Things go up and down. It'll turn around again. The Cold War is responsible for much of the conservatism in the Middle East.

Hopefully, once that generation dies off, we can move past that.

Pandemoniac
We have been slaughtering each-other over such differences for centuries, I wouldn't hope for things to cool down anytime soon.
Leads me to my main point; we all want the same in our faith of our religion, so why are we so willing to shed the blood of those alike?

Alliance
Because people are ignorant...and never had a true Jeffersonian education system.

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Pandemoniac
We have been slaughtering each-other over such differences for centuries, I wouldn't hope for things to cool down anytime soon.
Leads me to my main point; we all want the same in our faith of our religion, so why are we so willing to shed the blood of those alike?

Because while one can generalise and say "we all want the same things in a religion" (which is debatable) people want everyone else to believe a certain way. They want to believe they are right. Pure and simple. Their holy book, scroll, whatever says "this is the way it must be done, and one who doesn't do it this way is wrong."

Alliance
People don't think. They lack the power of relatavistic thought. Remeber that this concept is historically a relatively recent development. It needs time to sink in.

Pandemoniac
Which leads us to the main question; is religion a positive or negative influence?

Alliance
Neither.

It is both. The good is indistinguisable from the bad...assuming that religon encompasses spirituality et al.

Kryzula
The interesting stories that we get from them? Mythology is fascinating.

~ Kryzula

Alliance
Indeed. As is religious artwork.

Pandemoniac
I believe that has nothing to do with religion at all. Mutual respect and coexistence need no religion at their base. I think religion only distorts the possibility of such.

Alliance
Can i get a refernce check on "that," please?

Mutal respect and co-existence do not need religion at their base NOW, but they did until the Enlightenment.

(techinally they didn't before the Enlightenment either, but there was no real theory as to where else it could come from.)

Regret
I am not sure humanity could have reached the level of moral maturity that it has without the presence of religion, at least not as quickly as it has.

Alliance
I disagree, If the Athenian golden age had lasted longer, I think we could have skipped some very dark ages in Western societies.

(with global influences of course)

Kryzula
Originally posted by Alliance
Indeed. As is religious artwork.
Oh yes, that too.

~ Kryzula

Regret
Originally posted by Alliance
I disagree, If the Athenian golden age had lasted longer, I think we could have skipped some very dark ages in Western societies.

(with global influences of course)

Maybe, I think the Golden age occurred because Christians misinterpreted the Bible and thought they were "saved" so they obviously knew better than everyone else. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Sound familiar? wink

laughing

The Athenian golden age benefited from prior religious involvement as well, I think that it would have developed later than it did with no prior religious influence.

Alliance
Originally posted by Regret
The Athenian golden age benefited from prior religious involvement as well, I think that it would have developed later than it did with no prior religious influence.

Very few revolutions have overthrown religious power in society. Is it any coincidence that these revolutions happened in the most politclaly advanced and intellectual societies in hsitory?

Regret
Yes, but I am unsure if religion is not a precursor to political advancement and high levels of intellectual stimulation.

This advancement may be a response to the very illogical nature of religion, with all the illogical hogwash, someone has to step out and say, "What the hell?"

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Alliance
Neither.

It is both. The good is indistinguisable from the bad...assuming that religon encompasses spirituality et al.

I would concur - religion need be seen as neither inherently good or bad. The possibility for both exists. It can be beneficial or destructive. At the same time, while as Polybius noted religion can be very stabilising beyond a certain point it should not be seen as a necessity in cultural stability or evolution. Initially it is a good why to create unity and adherence to social concepts, but usually there comes a time when it is not as vital - which I feel is the point we are at now. People can have their religion, but shouldn't feel the world relies on it as much, or that it is integral to the effective running of state or culture.



In what sense? What was moral 5000 years ago, 3000, 2000, 500 is vastly different to today. While religion could be used as an authority on morality I would attribute philosophy, the move towards mass rule and liberal thought throughout the ages more to our current level of morality then religion, especially when religion was often used to justify stances that are often in no way in line with current western (or even eastern) morality.

Alliance
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
I would concur - religion need be seen as neither inherently good or bad. The possibility for both exists. It can be beneficial or destructive. At the same time, while as Polybius noted religion can be very stabilising beyond a certain point it should not be seen as a necessity in cultural stability or evolution. Initially it is a good why to create unity and adherence to social concepts, but usually there comes a time when it is not as vital - which I feel is the point we are at now. People can have their religion, but shouldn't feel the world relies on it as much, or that it is integral to the effective running of state or culture.

Religion is personal...and should stay that way.

Such are the teachings of existentialism smile

Regret
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
In what sense? What was moral 5000 years ago, 3000, 2000, 500 is vastly different to today. While religion could be used as an authority on morality I would attribute philosophy, the move towards mass rule and liberal thought throughout the ages more to our current level of morality then religion, especially when religion was often used to justify stances that are often in no way in line with current western (or even eastern) morality.

I think religion is a step in the development of morality. It's a simple stance based on nothing but my opinion, and without any researched support. It doesn't mean that religion is moral, and it doesn't mean that historically religion has always been incredibly moral, it only means I think religion is a step man has taken toward a more moral state of being. I think philosophy played an enormous role as well, but I believe religion was existent before any well thought philosophy is recorded. Even most of our great historical philosophers discussed religion in their philosophical ruminations.

Alliance
Honestly, man is no more moral because of religion.

Only the enlightenment changed that, and its still not changed.

Regret
Perhaps, but I do view it as a step towards the enlightenment.

Alliance
The only way that I can think of that religoin was a step towards the Enlightenment was that people had to suffer through religions persecution in order to want to throw off its yoke.

Pandemoniac
Originally posted by Alliance
The only way that I can think of that religoin was a step towards the Enlightenment was that people had to suffer through religions persecution in order to want to throw off its yoke.

I agree on that. No matter how positive the foundations are, religions have been wielded as a system of indoctrination and suppression on many occasions, in order to control and restrict the people in favor of the selfish prosperity of the rulers.
Also, religion might bring people together on a small scale, but it has divided humanity as a whole. Shit, even societies that serve the same religion but differ in their interpretation of it are willing to kill each other over that.

Pandemoniac
An not to mention the wars in the name of religion off course

Alliance
Yes, indocrination has destroyed religon.

But most people need to be told how to think about anything else anyway.

Regret
Originally posted by Alliance
The only way that I can think of that religoin was a step towards the Enlightenment was that people had to suffer through religions persecution in order to want to throw off its yoke.

Reaction is one of the most influential methods of advance, imo. Reaction to error is a strong motivator for advancement. The problem is when the error is strong enough to squash any reactions that may occur. Sometimes it is worth being an ass and being wrong intentionally if the creative process of the group has become stifled.

Pandemoniac
Which is another curse of religion; the suppression of the free mind and the freedom to think and relative outside of the set rules.

The greatest achievements and inventions were made by those who were not under the restrain of religion, and dared to see beyond it's rules and demands.

Alliance
Originally posted by Pandemoniac
Which is another curse of religion; the suppression of the free mind and the freedom to think and relative outside of the set rules.

Thats just human nature.

Pandemoniac
Being the herd species that we are, that is somewhat true, but enough individuals in history have proved to think and act beyond our nature, with positive results.
Without the yoke of religious ruling, many more alike might have had the chance to speak up and contribute to a better world.

Alliance
perhaps.

laughing out loud you liked my yoke.

Pandemoniac
Aye, a good metafore for the burden that it is!

Regret
Originally posted by Pandemoniac
Being the herd species that we are, that is somewhat true, but enough individuals in history have proved to think and act beyond our nature, with positive results.
Without the yoke of religious ruling, many more alike might have had the chance to speak up and contribute to a better world.

But, without that religious ruling would there have been the perceived need for them to? I am unsure of individuals impacting culture in any meaningful manner where the governing society was pleased with the initial movement of the change.

lord xyz
Originally posted by Pandemoniac
Are there truly any, besides their social guidelines that would exist in any civilised society anyhow? Actually, "their social guidlines" are what started it all. I'm more in favour of the Ancient Greeks and the celts morality and philosophy if it's okay with you.

Pandemoniac
Originally posted by lord xyz
Actually, "their social guidlines" are what started it all. I'm more in favour of the Ancient Greeks and the celts morality and philosophy if it's okay with you.

A good point, as those religions/believes left more room for individuality and personal decisions, and weren't as abused like religions were later on.

lord xyz
Originally posted by Pandemoniac
A good point, as those religions/believes left more room for individuality and personal decisions, and weren't as abused like religions were later on. Not to mention that their ethnicity is based on 2,000 year old arabian ethnicity.

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