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100 ARC Troopers vs. ROTS Sidious

I thought we had Yoda, Sidious and Maul vs 250 Arcs, and Yoda and co. lost badly. So will Sidious I belive...

It's the same principle that the Jedi who faced Order 66 had to deal with. Individually, they would have been able to slaughter the Clonetroopers - but could not deal with their overwhelming numbers and technology.

That said, we've seen that Yoda and Obi-Wan can handle dozens of troopers from the 501st Legion (the elite), with apparent ease. And Sidious himself said that: "I am sure that dozens of Jedi escaped with their lives", meaning that the Clonetroopers weren't infallible and a particularly skilled Jedi could escape.

So... how does a standard ARC trooper measure up to a 501st? Either way, I don't see Sidious taking one hundred at the same time. He'd likely be slaughtered, after taking out a few.

In a straight fight, Sidious goes down. Simple as that. He begins to use all his energy and get maybe forty of them if they were grouped semi-tight (not typical for ARC Troopers), and he gets sniped or ripped apart with highly trained troopers with repeating blasters. The only way Sidious could win is if it was a small, tight, hallway, filled with 100 ARC's or other very favorable conditions.

I say he pulls his freaky old man trump card and wins... as the clones die from terror.

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/6797/sign7bz.png

"POWER, UNLIMITED POW!-"

*Sidious drops down to the floor, minus his torso, legs, arms and head*

Depends on the terrain. If Sidious is surrounded, no way will he live. If they start a few hundred feet away and there is things to hide behind, I think Sidious could take this. All he has to do it force lightning a dozen or so clones at a time from behind his cover area. That, or he could mind control a bunch of them into fighting eachother and eliminate most of them that way. Reason being is clone minds are much easier to mind control then regular ones because of how similar they are. I mean, if he can control the Senate; which consists of different species that are harder to influence), controlling fifty clone minds should be easy.

True. You brought factors into the fight that I didn't think about, but it is still likely that he dies under the heavy fire that these one hundred soldiers will provide. He will take several down with him, though.

Yes, but these are ARC Troopers, their just as intelligent as Jango himself, and I doubt Jango is a weak minded being.

I remember reading somewhere, Insider, I think, that what a hundred regular Clone Trooeprs can do 4 commando's or one ARC can do. So while, obviously, a single ARC couldn't go up against an army like a hundred regular Clones could one do as much damage as 100 Clones like in the Microseries when they took out the main gun that was firing on the Republic Forces.


So I think unless Sidious has tons of cover he gets pwnd. Seriosuly, Alpha seemed to be on par with Anakin a couple months after AOTC and while he is one of the stronger ARC troopers the other ones must be about as strong as AOTC Anakin, perhaps slightly weaker, but close to him. So imagine 90 AOTC Anakin's against Sidious. And if ROTS Anakin is really twice as powerful as AOTC Anakin like he says he is then this is like 40 ROTS Anakin's against Sidious. Like I said in the Yoda, Sidious and Maul vs. 250 ARC's thread this might not be the best way of looking at the battle but I'm juust trying to let everyone realise how strong ARC's really are. Nearly as strong as Jango is.

Alpha better than AOTC Anakin???

For sure. They seemed to be on par during the battle of Ohma-D'un, which takes place a few months after AOTC.

Sacrifice say a hundred Clones in keeping Palp's busy, the rest scuttle away as they're heaving grenades, rockets and blasterfire.

Originally posted by darthsith19
For sure. They seemed to be on par during the battle of Ohma-D'un, which takes place a few months after AOTC.


Is that your opinion, or does it actually say he is on par with him or anything like it? Cause Anakin could slap him around with the force, pull away his gun, and parry every single shot he shoots, and push away every grenade he launches...

A Jedi on par with an ARC?!??! Unless this is Coleman Trebor, I doubt it. And this is Anakin, he's definately better.

Originally posted by kamikz
Is that your opinion, or does it actually say he is on par with him or anything like it? Cause Anakin could slap him around with the force, pull away his gun, and parry every single shot he shoots, and push away every grenade he launches...
Have you read the comic? He fights just as well, if not better, against Durge as Anakin does.

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
A Jedi on par with an ARC?!??! Unless this is Coleman Trebor, I doubt it. And this is Anakin, he's definately better.
That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. That'd be like if in a thread between Rogue Planet Anakin and Alpha I said "An ARC vs. a Jedi! Definately the Jedi especially cause it's Anakin!" I'm sure there are Jedi Knights and Masters that ARC's could beat in combat, let alone Padawans, I'm sure kamikz will agree with this.

Jedi have training with their lightsaber for many more years than ARCs. They have experience deflecting shots since a very young. Yes, there are ARC's that can beat certain Jedi Knights and Masters (Coleman Trebor). And I wasnt saying all Jedi can beat an ARC, I was saying that a good deal of them can.

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
A Jedi on par with an ARC?!??! Unless this is Coleman Trebor, I doubt it.

I will hear no more negative insinuations about Coleman Trebor! chair

Arc troopers are really good, and sidius is that to, but 100 clones is like 10000 shoots per sec, he cant defend that

Eh...no, Sidious dies.

Yeah, your right. Yoda has far more training than Sidious does but Sidious beat Yoda. Cin Drallig has more training than ROTS Anakin but Anakin beat him. Ki-Adi Munid and the other Jedi on Hypori had more training than grievous did but they lost. So your point is moot.

Just so you know, ARC troopers have more than just blasters. ARC troopers were commonly armed with the Westar-M5 heavy repeating blaster, ARC trooper assault rifle, DC-17 hand blasters, and fragmentation and reverse-polarity pulse grenades. When heavy firepower was needed they were equipped with reciprocating quad blasters, PLX-1 missile launchers, or Z-6 rotary blaster cannons. Jedi arn't just going to be able to easily deflect fire from those weapons. I can easily see an ARC trooper being stronger than most Jedi Knights, look at what they did on Muunilist, I doubt most of the Jedi who died in the arena on Geonosis are that good. And I'd put AOTC Anakin about on par with the avg. Knight, so I think an ARC is about on par with him if not better. And some ARC's, like Fordo and Alpha, are definately stronger.

Joruus controlled 37,000 minds at the same time and he was arguably weaker then Sidious. Sidious could have controlled a hundred minds if he wanted to, I believe.

I would ARC's are on par with maybe 50% of the Jedi Order. I mean, unless the ARC's are like Fordo or Alpha, they'll probably lose as the Jedi lightsabers will slash through them.




Sidious beats Yoda, bullshit. He can never beat Yoda. Sidious only won due to the terrain they were fighting in.

Okay..so if they were in a field of flowers Yoda would have won? Or a big cave? Or Chuck E Cheese? The fact is, you don't know that. We have Palpatine stalemating Yoda/mild victory for Palpatine and clear loss for Yoda -you don't say "failed, I have" and go into solitude for being anything close to a victor. Palpatine 1 point and lYoda 0. You can argue what you want about if they were in your bedroom and Palpatine was afflicted with Syphillis but that's not really important when compared with what actually happened.

50% seems right, I dunno how many of the jedi in the Order are Younglings, Padawans, Knights and Masters but I think most Jedi live to be near a hundred years old and most are Knights by the age of 30 at the latest and Masters before they die so I'd actually estimate that 70% of the Order is Knights and Masters so I guess your thinking that ARCs could beat pretty much any Youngling/Padawan and about 28% of Knights/Masters, which sounds good to me. fyi, I'd put Alpha or Fordo perhaps as strong as the avg. Master. And Nikkolas replied to your other thing better than I ever could, lol about the syphillis thing.

Palpatine and Yoda are equals. Both are the most uber-est powerful of the PT and OT.

The reason that we saw Palpatine constantly change the scenery of the fight is simply because he and Yoda had different goals. Yoda's ultimate goal was to kill Sidious - at any cost. Palpatine's goal was to live - at any cost. Honestly. The man just gained control over the galaxy. You honestly think he'd want to stick around and duke it out with a guy who is his equal - and risk sending a twenty year plan (and his life) down the drain as part of the risk?

Not likely.

Originally posted by Escape81
Palpatine and Yoda are equals. Both are the most uber-est powerful of the PT and OT.

The reason that we saw Palpatine constantly change the scenery of the fight is simply because he and Yoda had different goals. Yoda's ultimate goal was to kill Sidious - at any cost. Palpatine's goal was to live - at any cost. Honestly. The man just gained control over the galaxy. You honestly think he'd want to stick around and duke it out with a guy who is his equal - and risk sending a twenty year plan (and his life) down the drain as part of the risk?

Not likely.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy


Why exactly did you quote that?

Originally posted by Escape81
Palpatine and Yoda are equals. Both are the most uber-est powerful of the PT and OT.

The reason that we saw Palpatine constantly change the scenery of the fight is simply because he and Yoda had different goals. Yoda's ultimate goal was to kill Sidious - at any cost. Palpatine's goal was to live - at any cost. Honestly. The man just gained control over the galaxy. You honestly think he'd want to stick around and duke it out with a guy who is his equal - and risk sending a twenty year plan (and his life) down the drain as part of the risk?

Not likely.
I disagree. If Sidious really wanted to live at any cost when he was way above Yoda he could have left through one of the doors that lead into the Great Rotunda, like the one we see Mace standnign by in AOTC when Jar Jar gives emergency powers to Palpatine. I think originally Palpatine didn't want to risk fighting Yoda and maybe losing but after they started fighting Sidious didn't flee cause he figured he could probably win and then Yoda'd be dead. And if he wasn't trying to kill Yoda he sure did a good job defeating the Jedi who was trying to kill Sidious "at any cost".

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Joruus controlled 37,000 minds at the same time and he was arguably weaker then Sidious. Sidious could have controlled a hundred minds if he wanted to, I believe.

yea sure,

This happends : Sidius is standing on the battlefield..100 arc troopers is aproaching, sidios cast litning he is on hes whay killing 30 of them when they shoot 10000 shoots per sec, siduis is owned and trying to parry but its to good amed and 2 many shoots, he dies..

Originally posted by Hewkii_Dude
happends
Sidius
100 arc troopers is aproaching,
sidios
whay
siduis
but its to good amed


We all hate you.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
We all hate you.

okay maybe not exakly as i writed but, something like that

Yes, Sidious purposely took Yoda to an environment where he's at a disadvantage: the Senate Hall. He's know he can get to a higher ground above Yoda and throw stuff quicker than he can.

Therefore Sidious jumps on a platform and begins throwing huge circles twenty times the size of his little green friend at Yoda. Talk about disadvantage. And yet Yoda was able to dodge all of them. When his lightsaber was gone he blocked Sids lightning with his bare hands (Mace had trouble blocking it with his lightsaber) and redirect back at Sidious.


Guess what would have happened at Chuck E Cheese, Yoda gets pushed back several feet and Sidious gets slammed into the mini basketball stand. Yoda comes up and then prepares to probably finish Sidious (via saber throw).

And you're telling me Yoda will go up there and confront Sidious again especially when Sids can keep throwing 50 million Senate seats at him. Yoda is playing it safe. He knows he can't risk his life so he goes into solitude. Yeah he did fail his mission, does that mean Sidious is better than him, hell no!

That's a lame excuse. Sidious was intelligent enough to use his surroundings to his advantage, something that Yoda failed to do. Sidious could take advantage of his surrounding no matter where the fight took place, Theed, Hypori, Bespin wherever. I don't see it being any different because they fought in the Great Rotunda as Yoda likely knows that place as well if not betetr than Sidious does.



Yes, and why did Sidious get that advantage? Because he was stronger, if Yoda were truely stringer than Sidious it would have been Yoda who had gotten the advantage, not Sidious.


And Sidious stops his saber with the Force, cuts the hilt in half so the saber no longer works (like what Dooku did to Ani's second saber in AOTC), gets out of the basketball stand and saber rapes Yoda.

If Yoda's betetr than he is then why'd he lose? And don't try and tell me it was due to Sidious geting a terrain advantage cause if Yoda was really stronger than Sidious that means he just stood there and let Sidious get the advantage, which makes him weaker.

How will he get the advantage there? In the Senate building he has thousands of throwable objects.



Yoda takes time to throw things, that's why he couldn't do the same to Sidious. Sidious took advantage of Yoda by throwing objects twenty times Yoda's size.



If they were on a flat surface, Sidious would be on the ground and then Yoda can take the advantage.



Sidious could have jumped to the higher surface and the fired lightning to make Yoda dodge and then proceed to start throwing stuff at him.


And take this, Yoda threw something twenty times his size at Sidious at a high speed. Can Sidious throw a rancor (twenty times the size of Sids)? I don't think so.

Sidious was defeated by Mace Windu in lightsaber comabt. The only person greater than Mace is Yoda. Therefore, whatever Sidious does Yoda will win.

Yoda is greater than Sidious.

Piss poor logic.

a. Mace defeated Sidious in lightsaber combat when Sidious was thirteen years out of practice. Some of us have read sources that indicate his skills with a saber during the time before TPM, when he was training Darth Maul. Considering how Sidious was able to kill three Master level Jedi in less than thirty seconds, and that the only reason Mace won was due to his uber-rare Shatterpoint ability, I'd say that that speaks well for him.

b. Mace, Yoda, and Palpatine are all on par. Neither of them are better than the other by a truly massive degree. That the databank calls Sidious "the most powerful practitioner of the Dark Side" in modern times and during the time of the duel, as well as Palpatine's ability to stalemate Yoda, means that overall (including Force powers) he is more powerful than Mace and equal to Yoda.

c. If Yoda > Sidious, then his mastery of the Force would be greater. Yoda's small size would not be the reason why he took longer to lift the pods. It took him longer because he had to fight against gravity and stop the damn thing before it nailed him. Then, he had to spin it up and throw it back. That's a considerable achievement, and given his other abilities shown - it would seem that - on even ground, Yoda would lift those pods as easily as Palpatine.



Here's what's cute.

Palpatine was the one who landed the first blow with Force lightning. Yoda was knocked unconscious. So I could easily say that, if Sidious didn't run his mouth, he could have ran over and either:

a. skewered the unconscious Yoda with his lightsaber

or

b. continue to fry him with Force lightning.

The only person in a position to kill anyone in that fight, was Sidious, and he ran his mouth and very nearly paid the price. That was when he decided to flee, instead of risk his death in a showdown with Yoda. But, considering all he won that day, I really can't blame him.



Hate to tell you, but some things happened due to dramatic neccessity. Notice how, as I mentioned, Sidious could have killed Yoda, when he knocked Yoda unconscious. However, Yoda needed to survive to be in the PT. That's the same reason why a lot of this "common sense" stuff and fighting maneuvers were never used. Why Yoda never chucked a lightsaber at Sidious, or vice versa. Or why Yoda never hopped back up to finish the fight.



Um... Sidious threw three Senate pods simultaneously without any difficulty. I'd say that he could lift a rancor.



Already addressed this.

'

They're equal. RotS Sidious and RotS Yoda are equals. OT Sidious is more powerful than Yoda. DE Sidious is quite a bit more powerful than Yoda.

Well you're not saying Sids is better so I won't argue with you.

'Here's what's cute.

Palpatine was the one who landed the first blow with Force lightning. Yoda was knocked unconscious. So I could easily say that, if Sidious didn't run his mouth, he could have ran over and either:

a. skewered the unconscious Yoda with his lightsaber

or

b. continue to fry him with Force lightning.

The only person in a position to kill anyone in that fight, was Sidious, and he ran his mouth and very nearly paid the price. That was when he decided to flee, instead of risk his death in a showdown with Yoda. But, considering all he won that day, I really can't blame him.'

(a) Yoda wasn't completely prepared in the sense that he didn't have his saber out.

(b) Yoda was either caught off guard (very unlikely as Palpatine made it very obvious that he was going to do something) or didn't even attempt to block it for some unknown reason.

'RotS Sidious and RotS Yoda are equals.'

Unsupported assumptions much?

Lol. Gonna call it an unfair move now? Yoda knew what he was getting into. He was armed with the knowledge that Palpatine was a Sith Lord (and apparently a very dangerous one) and went in like he owned the place. And, guess what? He got knocked out because of it.

I could also state that Yoda caught Sidious "off guard" with that Force push.



Oh, so Yoda wanted to get knocked out? Look again. He tried to block the lightning when it was hurled. He just didn't make it. It was like an Old West gunfight. Sidious was just quicker on the draw.



Tell ya what. You provide half of what I have in this for the "Lumiya > DE Sidious and Vader" theory, and we'll talk. In the meantime, lol, don't run your virtual mouth by telling me that I have unsupported assumptions.

Half of what you spout has idiocy labeled all over it.

yoda and sid's are equal.

End. Of. Thread...

'Lol. Gonna call it an unfair move now? Yoda knew what he was getting into. He was armed with the knowledge that Palpatine was a Sith Lord (and apparently a very dangerous one) and went in like he owned the place. And, guess what? He got knocked out because of it.'

And? Yoda would have been better prepared if he had his saber ready. You can't argue against that so don't try, unless you want to argue that he was more adept at blocking lightning with his hands than he is with his saber.

Wow. Actually coming to think about that, that wouldn't be such a crazy theory. Yoda is extremely strong in the force, stronger in that regard than he is with handling a saber...

'I could also state that Yoda caught Sidious "off guard" with that Force push.'

He did. However I'm pretty sure you're missing my point. For this point alone, I was stating that Yoda wasn't prepared not in the sense that he wasn't ready, but just wasn't best equipped to deal with it.

'Oh, so Yoda wanted to get knocked out? Look again. He tried to block the lightning when it was hurled. He just didn't make it. It was like an Old West gunfight. Sidious was just quicker on the draw.'

1. Look at my post. He either never attempted to block it or he was caught off guard. I was just trying to be objective and look at all the possibilities, that's why I brought the point up.

2. Well it seems he did attempt to block it, I'll concede that point but that doesn't speak for his inability to do so, as:

(i) He only attempted at the last second (when the lightning had just left Palp's fingertips) whereas palpatine had been raising his hands for seconds, seconds where Yoda could have easily better prepared for defending against the attack.

(ii) He is able to block Palp's lightning later when Palp's is closer and when he is much quicker to pull his attack off.

'Tell ya what. You provide half of what I have in this for the "Lumiya > DE Sidious and Vader" theory, and we'll talk. In the meantime, lol, don't run your virtual mouth by telling me that I have unsupported assumptions.'

You know I don't believe that. You know I wasn't being serious. If you do, you're clearly extremely unperceptive and plain stupid.

The funny thing is, I did a hell of a job in debating that point for such a ludicrous idea.

(a) She holds Adas' holocron which would be of great benefit and presumably increase her power; it was considered the greatest sith artifact in terms of teachings, it contained sith secrets that Bane didn't know about and it enabled (partly, by a considerable amount) Freedon Nadd to singlehandedly conquer a planet.

(b) The NR era writers tend to overpower their characters, why not one of the last remaining sith? - more of an out of story explanation, but still holds some water. I actually wouldn't be surprised if they made her a match for someone like Kyle Katarn and maybe even Kyp.

(c) Her force phantoms were incredible. I won't go into them as you are fully aware of how great they were. She also uses the lightwhip, a very unorthodox weapon as is great with it.

(d) Star Wars has been known to be logically and scientifically inconsistent, so facts such as 'she wasn't anything special in earlier books' and the fact that she is a cyborg wouldn't likely stop any of the SW writers in overpowering her.

Also consider that the only source material I have read concerning Lumiya is Evil Never Dies so feel free to make stuff up.

'Half of what you spout has idiocy labeled all over it.'

You pride yourself in your debating ability. I don't. At least I'm pretty much the best debater here in terms of my forum status, you're not even top tier. Plus, I can improve with time, you've probs already reached your best.

The point is, he didn't. He chose not to have his saber activated, because he came in (like Palpatine) a bit too arrogant. The blast in the face woke him up to reality: "Hey. This isn't gonna be an easy fight." Same thing happened to Palpatine when he kept mouthing off to Yoda and got a massive Force push for his efforts.

Both of them got cocky, and both of them paid for it.



Precisely. Yoda is the only Jedi, also, who has proven to be skilled enough to manhandle Force lightning. Furthermore, Palpatine blasted the lightsaber right out of Yoda's hand - during the pod scene. His arms won't be as easily removed.



Again, that's because he got cocky.



The point is, he did try to block it.



Again: Yoda got cocky.



No, he just realized that he got fried when he played it cool, and went into uber serious mode. He can handle Palpatine's lightning with both hands, yeah, but as we've seen - not with a lightsaber - and not without extreme difficulty.



Hate to be rude here, but given your track record of idiocy, it's hard to tell when you're jesting or being serious. Because, either way, most of the stuff that you argue for is plain ridiculous.



You rarely do a hell of a job in anything related to debating.



Unsupported.



I'm sorry, did you not read Betrayal? There are only two things she's good at: lightsaber fighting and generating Force phantoms. She lost the Force push match against Nelani, and only survived because she's pretty decent with her lightwhip.



Go her. You do remember that she was trained by Vader, as well, who was trained by Palpatine? She was also personally trained by Palpatine - as she used to be one of the Emperor's Hands.



I don't disagree. But, if you wanna get technical, the 'Dark Man' (Jacen) reminds Luke of Darth Vader - who should be considered a weakling in comparison to most of the NJO people. But, even now, apparently, he still represents great power and strength in the Force.



Lmao. Okay. Sure.

Originally posted by Adas

You pride yourself in your debating ability. I don't. At least I'm pretty much the best debater here in terms of my forum status, you're not even top tier. Plus, I can improve with time, you've probs already reached your best.


1. Your contradicting yourself.

2. You're no were NEAR even ONE of the best debators here. Those spots belong to E81, Advent, and Sexy.

3. E81 is possibly THEE best debator here, at the moment.

4. You're not to going to improve any if you continue to debate with the reasoning ad logic that you're currently using.

Originally posted by Coleman Trebor
1. Your contradicting yourself.

2. You're no were NEAR even ONE of the best debators here. Those spots belong to E81, Advent, and Sexy.

3. E81 is possibly THEE best debator here, at the moment.

4. You're not to going to improve any if you continue to debate with the reasoning ad logic that you're currently using.

1. Please explain how?

2. In my forums status, yes. You're dumb if you consider those three the best. The best are Ush, Nai and Traya.

3. Nope, Ush, Traya and Nai are all better.

I have mad debating skillz. The fact I type it with a "z" is proof of that. But, I don't even know what an ARC Trooper is so I'm incapable of proving my amazing debating talents at this current time. Please hang up and try again.

Darth Sexy isnt one of the best debators here. Advent is BY FAR the best here at the moment, By far. The most effort award goes to Advent for the insane debating and uber long posts.

'The point is, he didn't. He chose not to have his saber activated, because he came in (like Palpatine) a bit too arrogant. The blast in the face woke him up to reality: "Hey. This isn't gonna be an easy fight." Same thing happened to Palpatine when he kept mouthing off to Yoda and got a massive Force push for his efforts.'

'Both of them got cocky, and both of them paid for it'

'Again, that's because he got cocky.'

But wasn't the point of your original post that Sidious is equal to Yoda? I was just showing that none of this suggests that.

'Precisely. Yoda is the only Jedi, also, who has proven to be skilled enough to manhandle Force lightning. Furthermore, Palpatine blasted the lightsaber right out of Yoda's hand - during the pod scene. His arms won't be as easily removed.'

lol 'precisely'? The point would have never entered your head if I hadn't mentioned it. Don't act as if that wasn't the first time the theory occurred to you.

'The point is, he did try to block it.'

The point is, you committed a strawman.

'Hate to be rude here, but given your track record of idiocy, it's hard to tell when you're jesting or being serious. Because, either way, most of the stuff that you argue for is plain ridiculous.'

Hard for you maybe because you suck at reading people. And there's a difference between idiocy and immaturity, you're clearly not smart enough to know that.

'You rarely do a hell of a job in anything related to debating.'

Just like you when you're up against Nai.
Unlucky about that.

'Unsupported.'

Nope, none of it is. You're just uninformed.

'I'm sorry, did you not read Betrayal? There are only two things she's good at: lightsaber fighting and generating Force phantoms. She lost the Force push match against Nelani, and only survived because she's pretty decent with her lightwhip.'

No, I didn't. And the fact that Lumiya's force phantoms were so impressive shows that she must be extremely powerful with the force. And yes, she is a good duelist, incredible actually.

'Go her. You do remember that she was trained by Vader, as well, who was trained by Palpatine? She was also personally trained by Palpatine - as she used to be one of the Emperor's Hands.'

And? Yay for feat wars!

'I don't disagree. But, if you wanna get technical, the 'Dark Man' (Jacen) reminds Luke of Darth Vader - who should be considered a weakling in comparison to most of the NJO people. But, even now, apparently, he still represents great power and strength in the Force.'

That was because of what he represented.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Darth Sexy isnt one of the best debators here. Advent is BY FAR the best here at the moment, By far. The most effort award goes to Advent for the insane debating and uber long posts.

No. Advent is good, but she only seems so good to most people because she know how to annihilate weaker debaters in arguments. Yet I've never seen her do well against someone like Nai and Ush pwned her in a thread a while back. Kind of like Grievous. He slaughters weaker jedi like Ki-Adi but can't handle people like Obi-Wan or Mace Windu. Nai, Ush and Traya are all far better and Escape and Generic Hero are slightly better too.

I say the best debators here are Ush, Adas and Borbarad. Darth Sexy is good, too. Seriosuly, Adas is a good debator, look at when he went up against jollyjim in the Mace vs. Revan debate.

You people honestly must be delusional.

Originally posted by darthsith19
I say the best debators here are Ush, Adas and Borbarad. Darth Sexy is good, too. Seriosuly, Adas is a good debator, look at when he went up against jollyjim in the Mace vs. Revan debate.

lol thanks for the recognition but I'm definitely not up there. You for one are better than me imo.

Originally posted by Advent
You people honestly must be delusional.

*Nods head*

And, that nigga video was gold. It wasn't even that uber funny, yet I keep playing it over and over.

Originally posted by Adas
lol thanks for the recognition but I'm definitely not up there. You for one are better than me imo.
Oh really? I didn't think I was that great, good but nowhere near as good as you, imo. I seems we have a difference of opinion.

I don't really rate myself too highly. Ush is imo by far the best, followed by Nai. Then Trya, Generic Hero and then Escape imo.

Ush
Bobarad
Sexy
Advent (bulldozer she is)
Escape
Adas
darthsith19

These people are pretty good debaters here.

I actually don't think people like Kamikz and The Anomaly get much recognition.

Meh, I'm never really into large debates, I bring up a point or two, I'm to lazy...

Originally posted by Adas
I actually don't think people like Kamikz and The Anomaly get much recognition.

Well thanks lol, but I'm really not on the higher level of debaters here. I could debate like Advent and Nai and all them, but I'm just too lazy to take like 20 Minutes to find all the scans and shit I'd need then type out a 3 page response then redo it like 15 times so that everyone else finally realises what I'm talking about. I love Star Wars and all, but I don't like it enough to put that much constant effort into debating things, that while fun, are not really important in any way. But I've done a few pretty long good posts before in my day, they're just few and far between.

Now, rather then pwning Advent style, I mostly just chuckle and shake my head at the retarded threads and ridiculous fanboys that make they're way in here. I don't bother to argue all that much because no matter how much you pwn an uber fanboy, they never hear or acknowledge what you say anyways, its not worth my time. MAYBE if more people debated like Advent and Nai and 81 then I would take the time to do it, but noob fanboys arnt worth my time.

Originally posted by Adas
I actually don't think people like Kamikz and The Anomaly get much recognition.
Yeah, like the Anomaly said he doesn't really get into big debates very much but makikz is a good debator whenever I see him in a debate.

"Kamikz"

Hahaha, Kamikz you should change your name to "makikz"

Originally posted by kamikz
"Kamikz"
Whoopes, typing fast.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Hahaha, Kamikz you should change your name to "makikz"




Oh the nerve.....

It does.

It shows that Sidious and Yoda were never able - for long periods - to overpower or outmaneuver one another. In fact, we know that Yoda was disarmed and Sidious was not. He just fought smarter than Yoda did, crediting to his victory.



Erm... considering how I have stated time and time again that the likes of Yoda and Palpatine are more powerful with their Force attacks than with their lightsaber - it has.

Don't presume to be able to read my mind. You're the least skilled debator on these forums, my friend. I hardly think that you possess telepathic abilities. Or, perhaps, you could borrow a good argument from someone, once in a while.



The point is: I didn't.

Palpatine leveled a blast of Force lightning and Yoda got cocky. When he realized what danger he was in, he attempted to defend himself, but was overpowered.'



Lol, given your lack of mind reading skills, I don't think you've got the right to point that out. You'd make a terrible psychic.



Ah, here's what's funny. I've always said that Nai is greater than myself. I'd say that mostly everyone here is, save for you. But that isn't to say that Nai's not been wrong before or that I haven't proven him wrong before. It's happened.



I'm sorry, aren't you arguing with Betrayal - but you haven't read it? Doesn't that make you uninformed?



Lol.



If you haven't read it, then STFU up.

Lumiya nearly had a heart attack trying to repel a Force push from Nelani Dinn. She ended up losing, actually, and only saved her head from being crushed by a marble bust - by smashing it with her lightwhip.

She also says that she can't master any aspect of the Force due to her cyberkinetic implants.

Jacen > Lumiya. Luke > Lumiya. Nelani Dinn > Lumiya.



Yay! Means Vader and Sidious > Lumiya!



Guess what? If Vader were considered weak in comparison to this era, he wouldn't be considered powerful, now would he?

Originally posted by Escape81
Erm... considering how I have stated time and time again that the likes of Yoda and Palpatine are more powerful with their Force attacks than with their lightsaber - it has.

Don't presume to be able to read my mind. You're the least skilled debator on these forums, my friend. I hardly think that you possess telepathic abilities. Or, perhaps, you could borrow a good argument from someone, once in a while.

I'll answer the rest later but first, between me and you: you're gonna get pwned.

Now here was what you posted just before you acted as if that wasn't the first time the thought entered your tiny head:

'The point is, he didn't. He chose not to have his saber activated, because he came in (like Palpatine) a bit too arrogant. The blast in the face woke him up to reality: "Hey. This isn't gonna be an easy fight." Same thing happened to Palpatine when he kept mouthing off to Yoda and got a massive Force push for his efforts.

Both of them got cocky, and both of them paid for it.'

That was in reply to
'And? Yoda would have been better prepared if he had his saber ready. You can't argue against that so don't try, unless you want to argue that he was more adept at blocking lightning with his hands than he is with his saber.'

Now when you say 'He chose not to have his saber activated, because he came in (like Palpatine) a bit too arrogant' in regard to Yoda not having his saber ready to defend against Palpatine's lightning, you're indicating that Yoda not having his saber activated supports him being arrogant of his own abilities, in other words you're basically implying that Yoda felt he didn't need to activate his saber to block Palp's lightning because he was arrogant of his skills and felt he could block it with his hands anyway. This shows that you believed he was more adept at blocking it with a saber. QED.

Now please stop lying, it only makes you look worse. Being perceptive is one thing I do pride myself in, so don't step to me on any topic related to that.

You're not getting it.

Palpatine blasted through Yoda's lightsaber, proving that sufficiently powerful Force users can smash through the defenses provided by a lightsaber. However, he is capable of repelling Force lightning without a lightsaber.

But, as Obi-Wan has proven, when a lightsaber is put into play against Force lightning - there is less of a chance that the victim will get hurt. Obi-Wan was able to catch all of Dooku's lightning, with one hand on his saber.

Simply put, Yoda would have had a better chance if his lightsaber was in use (and he did). Because, you'll notice, right after Sidious blew the saber out of Yoda's hand, Yoda caught the lightning and managed to hold it at bay.

Furthermore, when did I say that Yoda coming in with a lightsaber would have been better simply against Force lightning? Yoda is unable to generate offensive Force attacks (other than a Force push), meaning that - without his lightsaber - he has no real chance to defeat Palpatine in single combat, unless he either:

a. Electrocutes Palpatine with his own lightning (doubtful that Palpatine would generate enough) or

b. Force push Palpatine off a cliff.

Neither one was likely to happen. Dooku can generate more offensive Force assaults than Yoda can, and even though Yoda > Dooku by quite a bit - Yoda wouldn't likely defeat Dooku without a lightsaber, or unless there's enough debris around for him to chuck at Dooku.

If Yoda came in with his lightsaber in hand, and less cocky, then he would have stood a better chance. Palpatine didn't sense Yoda enter the building, so he wasn't expecting a fight. He could have engaged Palpatine a lot quicker had he not stopped to dick around in banter.

So, no, I don't know how you pwned me. To quote Steven Tyler: "dream on".

Originally posted by Escape81
So, no, I don't know how you pwned me. To quote Steven Tyler: "dream on".

Lol.

And my lovely, dearest Escape owns Adas yet again.

Originally posted by Advent
Lol.

And my lovely, dearest Escape owns Adas yet again.

Not exactly a crowning achievement, considering how every Joe-blow can do it. But thanks anyway, lol.

Are Rex, you, and myself still on for this evening?

'It does.

It shows that Sidious and Yoda were never able - for long periods - to overpower or outmaneuver one another. In fact, we know that Yoda was disarmed and Sidious was not. He just fought smarter than Yoda did, crediting to his victory.'

Yoda being cocky and complacent doesn't indicate at all that Palpatine was his equal because if he had been realistic and cautious, he would have done better.

'The point is: I didn't.'

You posted this:

'Lol. Gonna call it an unfair move now? Yoda knew what he was getting into. He was armed with the knowledge that Palpatine was a Sith Lord (and apparently a very dangerous one) and went in like he owned the place. And, guess what? He got knocked out because of it.

I could also state that Yoda caught Sidious "off guard" with that Force push.'


in response to this:

'Yoda wasn't completely prepared in the sense that he didn't have his saber out.'

That's a perfect example of a strawman, you completely missed the point of my post. You believed that my point was that Yoda was caught by surprise. Bad reading comprehension much?

'I'm sorry, aren't you arguing with Betrayal - but you haven't read it? Doesn't that make you uninformed?'

No.

'You're not getting it.'

I do get it. I made this perfectly clear when I actually originally brought the actual topic up.

'Palpatine blasted through Yoda's lightsaber, proving that sufficiently powerful Force users can smash through the defenses provided by a lightsaber. However, he is capable of repelling Force lightning without a lightsaber.

But, as Obi-Wan has proven, when a lightsaber is put into play against Force lightning - there is less of a chance that the victim will get hurt. Obi-Wan was able to catch all of Dooku's lightning, with one hand on his saber.

Simply put, Yoda would have had a better chance if his lightsaber was in use (and he did). Because, you'll notice, right after Sidious blew the saber out of Yoda's hand, Yoda caught the lightning and managed to hold it at bay.'

And? I know this. I was the one who brought it up.

'Furthermore, when did I say that Yoda coming in with a lightsaber would have been better simply against Force lightning?'

You directly quoted (in other words you were directly answering to what you just quoted) me saying 'And? Yoda would have been better prepared if he had his saber ready. You can't argue against that so don't try, unless you want to argue that he was more adept at blocking lightning with his hands than he is with his saber'

And you replied by saying:

'He chose not to have his saber activated, because he came in (like Palpatine) a bit too arrogant'

You were answering to me by saying that the point was that Yoda was cocky and arrogant.

QED my friend.

'Ah, here's what's funny. I've always said that Nai is greater than myself. I'd say that mostly everyone here is, save for you. But that isn't to say that Nai's not been wrong before or that I haven't proven him wrong before. It's happened.'

You never defeated Nai. What, you think you did because you had more people on your side. Appeal to majority much?

You have no point at all, do you ? Yoda wasn't the only one being cocky. Sidious was as well, and the both of them nearly paid the ultimate price for it. Had Yoda came in, ready to kick ass and take names, he most likely wouldn't have gotten blasted by Force lightning - and could have likely killed Palpatine then and there (due to Palpatine being completely off guard).

Likewise, Palpatine also had the chance to kill Yoda. Twice. He could have either skewered him with his lightsaber or blast him, continuously, with Force lightning - and then - Palpatine could have thrown several more pods while Yoda was trying to deal with one of them.



When using a term such as "strawman", one has to fully understand it in order to wield it properly. So, that said, I suggest that you stop trying to copy arguments from Nai Fohl and his ilk. They are too far beyond your inadequete intellect for you to properly use.

You said that Yoda wasn't prepared. No, he wasn't, completely. I agreed. He would have had a better chance to kill Palpatine (not just to deflect the initial Force lightning) if he had his lightsaber prepared. But he went in arrogant. That was his fault. He then attempted to rectify the mistake by blocking the lightning - but was propelled into a wall for his efforts.

Palpatine made the same mistake. He knew what he was getting into when he continued the fight with Yoda, but chose not to kill him when he had the chance. He tried to toy with him.

Yoda nor Sidious can toy with one another, being equals.



LMAO. Double standards?

Rofl. Apparently not.



Good, then you are underlining my point. Yoda was better prepared when he had his lightsaber out the second time around, and would have been better prepared if he had it out during the initial sojourn into the battle.



Rofl.

You just confessed that Yoda would have been better prepared with the lightsaber in hand.

^-- ring any bells?

If Yoda had came in, lightsaber in hand, he would have been able to handle the lightning better. Because, as shown, Yoda can be injured trying to deal with Force lightning. He got nailed in the first volley, and during the pod scene - he was grimacing in pain.

He could have avoided that if he came in with his saber, and if the saber was blasted away - he could still ultimately deal with the lightning at point blank range (though not without extreme difficulty and pain).

Originally posted by Adas
'Ah, here's what's funny. I've always said that Nai is greater than myself. I'd say that mostly everyone here is, save for you. But that isn't to say that Nai's not been wrong before or that I haven't proven him wrong before. It's happened.'

You never defeated Nai. What, you think you did because you had more people on your side. Appeal to majority much?

Trying to appeal to my ego won't work.

Lol, go back to the issues of Dooku vs. Sidious - and those like it. Go visit the threads, if you'd like. Nai is, most of the time, better than I am. I won't deny it, and applaud him for his ability.

Doesn't mean he's infallible, or that he's not been proven wrong. Even by me. It happened. Deal with it.

Wow. It took you that long.

'You have no point at all, do you ? Yoda wasn't the only one being cocky. Sidious was as well, and the both of them nearly paid the ultimate price for it. Had Yoda came in, ready to kick ass and take names, he most likely wouldn't have gotten blasted by Force lightning - and could have likely killed Palpatine then and there (due to Palpatine being completely off guard).

Likewise, Palpatine also had the chance to kill Yoda. Twice. He could have either skewered him with his lightsaber or blast him, continuously, with Force lightning - and then - Palpatine could have thrown several more pods while Yoda was trying to deal with one of them.'

You just miss the point. You were trying to suggest that Sidious was Yoda's equal, and by doing that you brought up the fact that Sidious was actually in the position to kill him. I then showed to you that Sidious did not get in the position due to skill or power, but due to Yoda's arrogance which destroys your whole point.

'When using a term such as "strawman", one has to fully understand it in order to wield it properly. So, that said, I suggest that you stop trying to copy arguments from Nai Fohl and his ilk. They are too far beyond your inadequate intellect for you to properly use.

You said that Yoda wasn't prepared. No, he wasn't, completely. I agreed. He would have had a better chance to kill Palpatine (not just to deflect the initial Force lightning) if he had his lightsaber prepared. But he went in arrogant. That was his fault. He then attempted to rectify the mistake by blocking the lightning - but was propelled into a wall for his efforts.

Palpatine made the same mistake. He knew what he was getting into when he continued the fight with Yoda, but chose not to kill him when he had the chance. He tried to toy with him.

Yoda nor Sidious can toy with one another, being equals.'

Why are you changing the subject, and flaming. You committed a strawman, accept that.

'LMAO. Double standards?'

No. You know jack about the article I was talking about, and that is what makes you uninformed. I at least know pretty much everything important in Betrayal, just haven't completely read it.
And it looks like you just got out debated again, want some more?

Originally posted by Escape81
Rofl. Apparently not.



Good, then you are underlining my point. Yoda was better prepared when he had his lightsaber out the second time around, and would have been better prepared if he had it out during the initial sojourn into the battle.



Rofl.

You just confessed that Yoda would have been better prepared with the lightsaber in hand.

^-- ring any bells?

If Yoda had came in, lightsaber in hand, he would have been able to handle the lightning better. Because, as shown, Yoda can be injured trying to deal with Force lightning. He got nailed in the first volley, and during the pod scene - he was grimacing in pain.

He could have avoided that if he came in with his saber, and if the saber was blasted away - he could still ultimately deal with the lightning at point blank range (though not without extreme difficulty and pain).

Hold up. Is that another excuse?

Didn't you just say:
'Furthermore, when did I say that Yoda coming in with a lightsaber would have been better simply against Force lightning:'?
And now you're actually arguing the point to save yourself some pride and make it seem like you weren't lying.
Dude, you are clearly lying.
Also, please stop twisting my words. If your reading comprehension is that bad, don't reply.

Originally posted by Escape81
Trying to appeal to my ego won't work.

Lol, go back to the issues of Dooku vs. Sidious - and those like it. Go visit the threads, if you'd like. Nai is, most of the time, better than I am. I won't deny it, and applaud him for his ability.

Doesn't mean he's infallible, or that he's not been proven wrong. Even by me. It happened. Deal with it.

No, it didn't. You'd never beat him. Now deal with that.

Also. How long does it take you to reply you snail?

Some of us (I use that term loosely) have lives outside of KMC and a computer. It's called the real world. Try it sometime.

Likewise, learn to use the quote button. It's a clickable box. Says "quote" on it. Can't miss it. But, then again, knowing you, lol...



No, it doesn't. Once again - Yoda is capable of handling Force lightning. You confess yourself that it was obvious what Palpatine was going to do. Yoda attempted to defend himself, but was overpowered. The only other time that we see him defend himself from Palpatine's Force lightning - we see that he is capable of it - but that it takes time and extreme difficulty and pain from Yoda.

Which implies that Yoda can handle Sidious's lightning, but not all the time - and apparently - not the ease at which he handled Count Dooku's.



Suppose you simply looked over the two other (and larger) paragraphs that counter your point. There's such a thing as selective hearing. Seems you've discovered its counterpart. Selective vision.



Lol, apparently not. You didn't, say, know that such a usage of the Force exhausted her - and that she lost a Force battle to Nelani Dinn (a two-bit Jedi in comparison to anyone) - and that she herself confesses that she cannot master any aspect of the Force.

You know nothing, apparently.



More of that selective vision, eh?

Originally posted by Adas
Hold up. Is that another excuse?

Didn't you just say:
'Furthermore, when did I say that Yoda coming in with a lightsaber would have been better simply against Force lightning:'?
And now you're actually arguing the point to save yourself some pride and make it seem like you weren't lying.
Dude, you are clearly lying.
Also, please stop twisting my words. If your reading comprehension is that bad, don't reply.

Rofl. If you're so confident, then provide the quote. Where did I say that Yoda, having a lightsaber, would have made him completely prepared - if only for the Force lightning?

He would have been able to deal with it easier, and - it would have given him an all out better chance to deal with Sidious, considering that he can only win if he has his lightsaber in hand.

I like it how you're trying to appeal to my ego, lol. It's not working. Nai once argued that Dooku > Sidious. But, whoops! I found the source article that said that Dooku's potential didn't come close to Palpatine's own - and - that he was lumped in the same category as Maul when it came to sheer power in comparison to Palpatine.

There you go. An instance where I proved Nai wrong. That said, it doesn't change anything - other than your assumption. He's still an outstanding debator, and is one of the best here in ability - if not the (other than Advent).

I'm not even going to reply to most of that garbage, you're just either twisting my words, or missing the point or not answering the actual question.

'Lol, apparently not. You didn't, say, know that such a usage of the Force exhausted her - and that she lost a Force battle to Nelani Dinn (a two-bit Jedi in comparison to anyone) - and that she herself confesses that she cannot master any aspect of the Force.

You know nothing, apparently.'

I do know this, you've brought it up like a thousand times. I already made it clear that it meant jack because Star Wars often doesn't follow science or logic. All that matters is how she is in Betrayal.

Originally posted by Adas
I'm not even going to reply to most of that garbage, you're just either twisting my words, or missing the point or not answering the actual question.

'Lol, apparently not. You didn't, say, know that such a usage of the Force exhausted her - and that she lost a Force battle to Nelani Dinn (a two-bit Jedi in comparison to anyone) - and that she herself confesses that she cannot master any aspect of the Force.

You know nothing, apparently.'

I do know this, you've brought it up like a thousand times. I already made it clear that it meant jack because Star Wars often doesn't follow science or logic. All that matters is how she is in Betrayal.

Rofl!

Guess where that happened in? Oh yeah... Betrayal!

lol, OK fine. I give up, I actually know jack about Betrayal, but it was fun while it lasted.

Originally posted by Adas
lol, OK fine. I give up, I actually know jack about Betrayal, but it was fun while it lasted.

Wow. Surprising words for a guy who said he had me "outdebated".

Sorry, Nebaris, I'm done arguing with you, lol. You can't bring up any worthwhile points, you can't address my counterpoints (you overlook them and refuse to answer), and you continue to spout your nonsense.

See, no one considers you a good debator for this reason. You're one of the very few people who I get hateful with (there was a time when it was no one), and it's all due to your blatant disregard for logic and the unspoken "rules" of debating... like using facts, and actually addressing your opponent's counterpoints, or conceding the fact that theirs was better.

You can't. So expect for all of your arguments to remain unaddressed by me. They're simply not worth it.

Temper temper Escape. Oh, and darth sith and Vos think I'm good, so unlucky. But yeah, I'm done too.

Well at least you fight on , even if you're getting pwned.

Read through the argument again, I didn't get pwned. He just twisted my words and skirted my questions to make it seem like I had no point. You can partly tell by the fact that he's being so nasty, since when does Escape get like that? He's clearly acting like that to try and make it seem like I've debates so badly that he's lost all of his patience and has an excuse to stop debating. My points still remain, that is for the Yoda and Sidious debate. I knew I was losing in the Lumiya one (who wouldn't be losing on such a topic?), I just thought I'd do it for the sake of it.

I'm gonna agree with whoever says the ARC troopers. The Jedi Masters and Knights were killed by ordinary troopers, even if it was a suprise attack. Sure, the ARC troopers might not do so well working as a team, but Sidious won't be able to hold off 100 of them.

Yoda=Sidious

Sidious < 100 ARC Troopers

Isn't Yoda inferior to Sidious? I mean, he lost. Well, people would say that because Sidious gained the high ground blah blah blah. But Obi-Wan gained the high ground. Does that mean that he and Anakin are evenly matched?

Half this thread is about Yoda being better, equal to, or worse than Sidious. I would have to agree with Escape. I would say that they are equal as both are really good.

Pfft. I still think Sidious is better Don't get me wrong, Yoda's awesome. BUt as an honest, un-biased opinion, Sidious is better.

Well we really can't know since Yoda had terrain disadvantage and Sidious techically what you call "won" the duel. But even if one is better, they are very close and there's very little difference between them.

Fine fine. That's true, but still.... you can't argue with what you saw in ROTS....

Yeah, but the ROTS duel didn't really end. I mean, both of them were standing on a limited space trying to send lightning between them. Yoda being small and all were thrown back from the impact and he fell down. Sidious was thrown across the pods. Of course, Yoda could jumped up back there to continue the duel, but...

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
Yeah, but the ROTS duel didn't really end. I mean, both of them were standing on a limited space trying to send lightning between them. Yoda being small and all were thrown back from the impact and he fell down. Sidious was thrown across the pods. Of course, Yoda could jumped up back there to continue the duel, but...
(finishing your sentance)
... he was tired and had been battered by the fall

Exactly

Yes

You can tell I have no idea what point you were making

C'mon, sidious gets owned 100%