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How would you describe it to him. Is it even possible for the explanation to be understood?

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
How would you describe it to him. Is it even possible for the explanation to be understood?

red=hot
blue=cold

thats a basic way, and not every colour has an equivalent, but its a start...

Originally posted by pr1983
red=hot
blue=cold

thats a basic way, and not every colour has an equivalent, but its a start...

But red can be cold and blue can be hot as well, can't it?

as color is a visual perception, any explanation may be understood.....but completely unrelatable. They may understand how you can experience the perception but they themselves could never understand the perception.

how would I describe it to them? Light is the band of the electro-magnetic spectrum that the human eye can detect. It is comprised of photons, particles of energy. This energy is either absorbed or reflected by matter. The different ratios between absorbtion and reflection from matter to matter result in different ratios of photons reaching the human eye, resulting in differing perceptions from one piece of matter to another. We give these different perceptions names to describe the ratios. Those names are called colors.

I think that's a pretty decent, dumbed down explanation.......not requiring the blind person to hold a degree in physics or anything to understand the concept. No going into frequency or wavelength.....

You can tell them what color is, but you cannot make them understand what color is.... if you get my point. Perception is beyond reason.

I suppose you could try to explain the concept to them better by comparing it to the sense of touching...you could say for oen tell them that with seeing you can make out shapes from far away, and like differrent surfaces have a different feel to them different part of shapes have these different "colours".

Forget "explaining color."

First of all, as Evil Dead showed, you Can explain it: you can give an intellect-based/scientific account of color. So the question (IMO) is really: how would you describe color?

That being so: hell, to someone who was born blind, how would you describe vision or anything associated with seeing (eg, light and dark)?

What would be the common experiential reference frame? Could there be one?

no need to...it's a different world

nice topic..
i always use this as an example when im trying to tell people why
certain stuff is impossible to grasp.

you cant describe a sensation - no way..
a smell or sound or colour.

have you ever stared at at a big patch of one colour (it must be very consistent - no light spots here or slight changes somewhere), say, blue?
for a while.. but only look at the colour - like with your nose right against it so you cant see anything else? it kindof loses it's definition as blue. it's like you cant tell WHY it's blue anymore - it's just "something" - then you realise you dont really know what it means for something to be blue. but yeah, like Evil dead sed; it's just a light frequency that triggers a sensation you know as blue..

Our point of views differ to facts. Each person lives an entire life and no matter how big and significant are their actions won't change things around after some time have passed, which is each generation.

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
How would you describe it to him. Is it even possible for the explanation to be understood?
I would explain it as... sight. everything has colour except the vision of a blind person.

iv always found colour fascinating, theres this thing called inverted spectrum colour blindness which is really interesting, partly because its impossible to tell if you or anyone has it or not!

http://www.krasny.co.uk/krasnyintro.htm

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
How would you describe it to him. Is it even possible for the explanation to be understood?
Much in the same way you would imagine a color that you have not seen--you simply cannot do it.

You can't imagine anything out of your scope of perception. It's simply impossible.

Colors to people that born blind is like God to basically everyone.

You dont there is no way they will know what any color means.jm

Originally posted by Evil Dead
as color is a visual perception, any explanation may be understood.....but completely unrelatable. They may understand how you can experience the perception but they themselves could never understand the perception.

how would I describe it to them? Light is the band of the electro-magnetic spectrum that the human eye can detect. It is comprised of photons, particles of energy. This energy is either absorbed or reflected by matter. The different ratios between absorbtion and reflection from matter to matter result in different ratios of photons reaching the human eye, resulting in differing perceptions from one piece of matter to another. We give these different perceptions names to describe the ratios. Those names are called colors.

I think that's a pretty decent, dumbed down explanation.......not requiring the blind person to hold a degree in physics or anything to understand the concept. No going into frequency or wavelength.....
I doubt someone's going to be able to identify what the electro magnetic spectrum is, let alone be completely identified with photons, along with energy particles. They aren't going to regard aspects of sight as truly relatable, I agree with you there, but I'm sure there's a better way to attempt a description. Even the terms of absorbtion along with reflection might find troublesome definitions for say a blind five year old. You're using a decent vocabulary, but not a cooperative one. It's a decent explanation but certainly not dumbed down.

I'm blind, explain it to me. LOL (nope I lied)
Well let's think outside the box, do you think you could understand thermal sensing, like snakes, you know... tasting heat, or ultrasound or any other senses we don't have? You could compare it to other senses, like on tv(incidentaly the chosen sense is usually sight) but could you sense it?

When it comes to the experience itself, you can' t explain colour to someone who hasn' t had any visual experience. They' re not in a position to have the full concept of colour that the sighted have, nor can they understand the experience as fully as the sighted can.

You can't explain color to a color blind person. They have no basis on which to build that knowledge.

Originally posted by Mindship
First of all, as Evil Dead showed, you Can explain it: you can give an intellect-based/scientific account of color.

I don't remember anything like that in Evil Dead.

"It's like getting done in the butt."

"Well, ok thanks. But I don't know what that feels like either."

"It's ok. Let me show you."


Digimark007. Samaritan.

well......

how well can anyone explain pitch that is inaudible to humans, or wavelengths that are beyond that which is perceptible to the human eye?

Its fairly straightforward in fact. Some type of tactile design, with texture or relief gradation would likely promote the understanding of a concept, much like thermal vision works for humans -> we are able to gather an understanding of heat we are normally unable to perceive.

Whether they could ever "know colour" is a retarded question given that it is impossible for even 2 seeing people to describe their subjective interpretation of a colour to another who can perceive it.

I think a much more important question is why would a blind person have any need of colour? How much do you people think our ocular dominance predisposes us to interpret the world in certain ways? I'd be more interested in understanding the way a blind person distinguishes objects and events without the use of colour, given how important it is to us.

Originally posted by halfniak
nice topic..
i always use this as an example when im trying to tell people why
certain stuff is impossible to grasp.

It is a terrible example of this... What it really shows is that it is impossible (as of now) to know the inner percept of another as if you were experiencing it.

Originally posted by halfniak
you cant describe a sensation - no way..
a smell or sound or colour.

http://www.sinauer.com/detail.php?id=9385

I think it is fair to say that a book like the one above is at least the required reading someone must do before making a claim like this.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I don't remember anything like that in Evil Dead.
Originally posted by Evil Dead
as color is a visual perception, any explanation may be understood.....but completely unrelatable. They may understand how you can experience the perception but they themselves could never understand the perception.

how would I describe it to them? Light is the band of the electro-magnetic spectrum that the human eye can detect. It is comprised of photons, particles of energy. This energy is either absorbed or reflected by matter. The different ratios between absorbtion and reflection from matter to matter result in different ratios of photons reaching the human eye, resulting in differing perceptions from one piece of matter to another. We give these different perceptions names to describe the ratios. Those names are called colors.
I think it may be more accurate to say one can't describe color to a blind-from-birth individual; for that matter, how would one even describe vision? It would be like a being who can perceive, say, gravity waves trying to describe what that perception is like to us...however, he could explain it, appealing to mental understanding over sensory experience.

id perhaps try to explain it in the type of emotions it brings up in me. sensations n stuff{burning is a bit like red, intense etc}. also, i cud simply take their hand and touch it on a cold surface and then dip it in cold water and explain that the lighter/blue colour is to both these sensations, as the sensations are to each other. both have a component that is same, and different at the same time.

ofcourse no1 can DESCRIBE what seeing colour is like. qualia comes into that.

Originally posted by Atlantis001
Colors to people that born blind is like God to basically everyone.

I was thinking the very same thing when I came upon your post.

Originally posted by Mindship
I think it may be more accurate to say one can't describe color to a blind-from-birth individual; for that matter, how would one even describe vision? It would be like a being who can perceive, say, gravity waves trying to describe what that perception is like to us...however, he could explain it, appealing to mental understanding over sensory experience.

I see. Didn't know we had a poster named Evil Dead.

You can't explain a sensation. A scientific explanation of what color is doesn't make one grasp the perception of color.

You don't say... "Blue light is composed of photons of a certain frequency..." and suddenly the blind person is able to vizualize the color blue.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
You can tell them what color is, but you cannot make them understand what color is.... if you get my point. Perception is beyond reason.

True. If you pointed at something, and said: 'That's pink', the person will understand that something is pink, but will not be able to imagine what this color looks like, as they'd probably think of another shade of grey or something.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I see. Didn't know we had a poster named Evil Dead.

4 1/2 years later and people still don't know I exist.

Originally posted by Mindship


That being so: hell, to someone who was born blind, how would you describe vision or anything associated with seeing (eg, light and dark)?



recent studies are showing that people who are blind and have been from birth can still tell when its light or dark because its a different cell type and mechanism that is responsible for the detection of light and dark than it is for seeing shapes and colours

i's post more detail but it was in a new scientist magazine a few weeks ago that i cant find

Originally posted by jaden101
recent studies are showing that people who are blind and have been from birth can still tell when its light or dark because its a different cell type and mechanism that is responsible for the detection of light and dark than it is for seeing shapes and colours Cool. You go, brain. Although I can't say I'm entirely surprised. There's all kind of cool things going on amidst those ten billion neurons.

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
How would you describe it to him

The greatest thing you will never know

Originally posted by ragesRemorse
The greatest thing you will never know

Well, how about this..The explanation is possible. His understanding of it is impossible as paradoxal as that sounds.

I wonder if the same thing goes for trying to explain sound to a person born deaf?

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
Well, how about this..The explanation is possible. His understanding of it is impossible as paradoxal as that sounds.

I wonder if the same thing goes for trying to explain sound to a person born deaf?

The same problem applies to trying to explain anything to a person who has not experienced it.

To explain color to a blind person? You cant.

Originally posted by Deja~vu
To explain color to a blind person? You cant.

I think it could be possible, but difficult, because they'd never understand what a color is.

It seems impossible to describe color (or ANYTHING involving vision) to a blind person. The closest thing I can think of- and it is very imperfect- would be to relate color to the other senses. Like:

Yellow- warm, like sunlight. Sweet but tart, like lemonade.
Blue- deep and cool.
Red- hot like Tabasco, spicy.
White- cold and fresh, like snow.
Black- silent, still, very deep.

Like I said, it's imperfect, and it really does not mean a blind person would have anything like a true idea of color- but it would be a start. Maybe another step would be to explain how colors can interact, and how they can complement or clash with one another, as certain flavors can do.

I love how Cap'n Happy explained it.

Originally posted by Cap'n Happy
It seems impossible to describe color (or ANYTHING involving vision) to a blind person. The closest thing I can think of- and it is very imperfect- would be to relate color to the other senses. Like:

Yellow- warm, like sunlight. Sweet but tart, like lemonade.
Blue- deep and cool.
Red- hot like Tabasco, spicy.
White- cold and fresh, like snow.
Black- silent, still, very deep.
This is an actual method used in classrooms for the blind: relating color to experiences in other sensory modalities. As you said, it doesn't actually convey color; rather, it provides a common frame of reference between sighted and unsighted persons.

A blind person can feel the warmth of theof the sun -this is a form of radiation, light is another form of the suns radiation

Originally posted by Mindship
This is an actual method used in classrooms for the blind: relating color to experiences in other sensory modalities. As you said, it doesn't actually convey color; rather, it provides a common frame of reference between sighted and unsighted persons.

The only problem is that you could also relate colors like blue and white to hot or burning. Surely that must confuse the blind people.