Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

nuff'' said

i think cap wins

Cap throws his shield and KO's Spiderman and after it does that it ricochet's and KO's Wolverine.

ya, but not that esey

in 10 mi sm and w is out

Wolverine for the win. Healing Factor and claws and skeleton... :/
not sure how the heroes win it against such a debased villain!

so ,cap wins w, has a hf so what

Newavenger, you know that Cap doesn't have a chance here, right?

K, just checking. Because people will start labeling you as a fanboy between your sig and this thread (if you aren't careful). Just a friendly warning.

Spider-Man webs Cap and Logan up together in a "compromising" position.

how does cap have no chance? he beat Spiderman twice during the Civil War, and definitely can beat Wolverine.

no, i just thick caps wins

Originally posted by thedude1948
how does cap have no chance? he beat Spiderman twice during the Civil War, and definitely can beat Wolverine. ya what he said

Originally posted by thedude1948
how does cap have no chance? he beat Spiderman twice during the Civil War, and definitely can beat Wolverine.

Is this what the propoganda has done to these poor souls?

*sigh*

Alright, let's take this a step at a time.

A. Spidey's in awe of Cap as a leader. To imagine he was anywhere near giving it his all in battle is preposterous.
B. Spider-Man can bench 15 tons, has roughly 20x faster reflexes than a normal human, and of course his spider-sense and webs. Cap can bench about half a ton, is maybe x5 faster than a normal human, and doesn't have any real advantages over Spidey.
C. Cap has a cool shield, but nothing else to protect himself. Spidey is bullet-proof in his new suit, and even without it he's much more durable than Cap.

D. Wolverine would heal quickly from anything Cap could do to him. Cap, on the other hand, would be in trouble after a good shot or two from Logan's claws....and Logan is underrated as a martial artist as well, and is as strong and fast as Cap too.

Thus, the only way Cap's even going to be able hang with either of these guys is pure PIS. Stalemate for a while? Sure. Cap gets a few good shots in because he's a legend? Probably. But win?

...

Also, I've only seen 1 battle between Spidey and Cap recently, and it was brief. Where are these "2 victories" you're talking about??

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Is this what the propoganda has done to these poor souls?

*sigh*

Alright, let's take this a step at a time.

A. Spidey's in awe of Cap as a leader. To imagine he was anywhere near giving it his all in battle is preposterous.
B. Spider-Man can bench 15 tons, has roughly 20x faster reflexes than a normal human, and of course his spider-sense and webs. Cap can bench about half a ton, is maybe x5 faster than a normal human, and doesn't have any real advantages over Spidey.
C. Cap has a cool shield, but nothing else to protect himself. Spidey is bullet-proof in his new suit, and even without it he's much more durable than Cap.

D. Wolverine would heal quickly from anything Cap could do to him. Cap, on the other hand, would be in trouble after a good shot or two from Logan's claws....and Logan is underrated as a martial artist as well, and is as strong and fast as Cap too.

Thus, the only way Cap's even going to be able hang with either of these guys is pure PIS. Stalemate for a while? Sure. Cap gets a few good shots in because he's a legend? Probably. But win?

...

Also, I've only seen 1 battle between Spidey and Cap recently, and it was brief. Where are these "2 victories" you're talking about?? Big REALLY big question are they civil war, ultimate, 2009, 616 or MC2?

If Cap played it smart he might be able to pull off a win or two. By smart of course I mean hanging back and letting them go at it untill one of them goes down(should be Wolverine), then nailing who ever is left(Spiderman) from behind. I personally think Cap could take Wolverine 6/10, but I can't really see him being able to take Spidey in a strait up, no holds barred fight. Sorry newavenger.

yeah, what Digimark007 said. cap would go down first ( but not easily). between spiderman and wolverine, wolv 7/10.

Captain America is probably the best H2H fighter on Marvel earth, Spiderman even admitted he couldnt hang with him H2H.

Iron man recorded every fight Captain America has ever been in to his armor in his fight in Civil War #3, I guess even with the strength and Speed advantage, he isnt taking him lightly.

Wolverine isnt indestructable either he has shown he can be knocked out. That "Cool Shield" isnt exactly useless either, cap has shown he can do alot of things with it.

Cap beat Spiderman in Civil War #3, and Amazing Spiderman #534. If you dont consider that getting beat, you still have to admit Cap looked better in those fights.

And to the answer of this thread, if everyone is going full potential Spiderman just becomes invisible and beats them both. I give Captain America the edge over Wolverine though.

Originally posted by darthgoober
If Cap played it smart he might be able to pull off a win or two. By smart of course I mean hanging back and letting them go at it untill one of them goes down(should be Wolverine), then nailing who ever is left(Spiderman) from behind. I personally think Cap could take Wolverine 6/10, but I can't really see him being able to take Spidey in a strait up, no holds barred fight. Sorry newavenger. y are u saying sorry i dont care that much but i sitll thick caps takes it

I really think Captain will beat Spider-man, but not Wolverine, sorry no excuse, Captain is very agile (even may beat Spider-man), but c`mon wol has healing factor.

so w gets beat because its cap he can do it

Cap will beat spidey...
but wolverine beats cap...

Unless you take out wolverines healing factor.. and put in bone claw wolverine or something....

ya true but i know cap he wins

Originally posted by newavenger13
ya true but i know cap he wins OK now you are a officially a fan boy of cap, like I was with magneto at the beginning.

Originally posted by magneto1992
I really think Captain will beat Spider-man, but not Wolverine, sorry no excuse, Captain is very agile (even may beat Spider-man), but c`mon wol has healing factor.

...

Am I reading that right? Did you just say that Captain America is more agile than SPIDER-MAN?!

Gah. Cap has no chance here. This is just not his fight.

Hell, might as well pit Squid Boy against the Juggernaut and Hulk.

Same outcome here.

Spider-Man for the win, by the way.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
...

Am I reading that right? Did you just say that Captain America is more agile than SPIDER-MAN?!
Co-signed

Originally posted by rotiart
Cap will beat spidey...
but wolverine beats cap...

Unless you take out wolverines healing factor.. and put in bone claw wolverine or something.... Sorry my mistake I meant he might be able (probably not)

am not a fanboy i just like cap

I voted for Spidy, because of his stats on paper. But these guys can all beat each other any given day. I have seen Cap, DD, and Wolverine beat Spidy , but i have also seen Spidy beat those guys to more often than not.

Originally posted by newavenger13
am not a fanboy i just like cap You should have a debate with batdude.

Originally posted by newavenger13
am not a fanboy i just like cap

Unfortunately, the definition of a fanboy is someone who defends their character blindly in many situations even in the face of blatent facts that speak to the contrary.

We're all a fanboy of someone (if only slightly) so it's not the horrible curse some people make it out to be. And I know...I've done the same with Spidey before, and I've been wrong (example: I'll admit that Wolverine would win about as many as SM in a fight, even though I'll still defend him in that scenario).

But keep saying that Cap wins this fight, and yes, people will start labeling you as one.

Hey im an Inhuman fan boy, but i know there limits. Example, i know they could never possibly battle the JLA...

Originally posted by JOE NUNEZ
Hey im an Inhuman fan boy, but i know there limits. Example, i know they could never possibly battle the JLA...

Well, BB could hold his own with pretty much any of them.

But otherwise, yeah.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Well, BB could hold his own with pretty much any of them.

But otherwise, yeah. Yeah, you know team on team, the JLA wins..

There's already a thread that pits Wolverine, Captain AND Daredevil against Spidey. Most agreed that Spidey could take on them all.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
...

Am I reading that right? Did you just say that Captain America is more agile than SPIDER-MAN?!

Yes I am....

Originally posted by Dinalfos
There's already a thread that pits Wolverine, Captain AND Daredevil against Spidey. Most agreed that Spidey could take on them all.

Than most of those people are very wrong. because any of those two guys would destroy him.

Not in the specifications of a no CIS (he can kill) match. Spiderman downs two of them with one hit, and the rest aren't touching him.

Spider-Man for the win. He goes invisible, uses the liquid metal of his suit to suffocate Wolverine (till he passes out) and as his suit goes he takes down Cap.

Originally posted by thedude1948
because any of those two guys would destroy him.



This....thread.....is.....over.

Originally posted by Dinalfos


This....thread.....is.....over.

..... And I thought the Wolverine fanboys were bad.

Spiderman wins.

Originally posted by thedude1948
..... And I thought the Wolverine fanboys were bad.

They are.

The real Wolvie fans, like me, recognize him for what he is

Originally posted by Dinalfos
There's already a thread that pits Wolverine, Captain AND Daredevil against Spidey. Most agreed that Spidey could take on them all.


most did? that's funny..... the poll said that the trio won... I guess that's just another example of the backwards extremists using their votes to push out and negate the non voting majority....

Originally posted by jinzin



most did? that's funny..... the poll said that the trio won... I guess that's just another example of the backwards extremists using their votes to push out and negate the non voting majority....

Well, most SANE people anyway.

Originally posted by Dinalfos
Well, most SANE people anyway.

So wait he gets beat twice by Cap in Civil War but he can beat Cap Wolverine and Daredevil at the same time?

Originally posted by thedude1948
So wait he gets beat twice by Cap in Civil War but he can beat Cap Wolverine and Daredevil at the same time?

Cap beats on everybody. Doesn't make it right.

Originally posted by DigiMark007


Thus, the only way Cap's even going to be able hang with either of these guys is pure PIS. Stalemate for a while? Sure. Cap gets a few good shots in because he's a legend? Probably. But win?

this I'll have to disagree with you on.. due to the chaotic nature of a 3 way fight, and the fact that cap is leagues ahead of both of these guys in terms of strategical thinking, it's not implausible that cap could use strategy to his advantage here... plus there's the problem that while both spidey and wolverine like and respect cap they tend to always bicker and fight with one another at the drop of a hat.. therefore cap could use that to his advantage as well.

"cap plays possem letting wolverine and spiderman wear at eachother. as wolverine throws lefts and rights at spidey, cap has backflipped out of the way; taking into account spiderman's ss he throws his sheild as the webslinger is avoiding wolverine's assault... the momentary awareness of danger causes spiderman to try and adapt to the incoming sheild only to get hit by wolverine's claws... as wolvie plunges his claws into the webslinger the sheild as boomeranged it's way back and nails wolverine in the side of the neck; his equilibrium distorted, cap comes in to land well place nerve shot after nerve shot."

I'm not saying cap wins this a majority of the time by any means but to state that any hope of him taking home a victory is purely and simply PIS is a statement that belongs in fantasy land, and I'm not talking about 616.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Also, I've only seen 1 battle between Spidey and Cap recently, and it was brief. Where are these "2 victories" you're talking about?? he's talking about civil war issue 3... spiderman and cap get into it and the last shot we see of their scuffle ends with cap landing a haymaker that's sending spidrman airborn and spread eagle.. thus.. cap had the advantage....

NOW... actually.. I think spiderman would win this fight. While cap has the advantage of strategical awareness, there's no guarantee that the plan he comes up with will go his way, or that do what he wants it to do. He has to keep on his toes not only being aware of incoming attacks from two superhumans but also being prepared to come up with strategies to hit one guy that is very hard to hit, and put another guy down that's very hard to put down....

that said.. wolverine has the virtue of taking punishment more than any other here but cap has proven to be handful for him on several occasions now.. throw in less concentration on cap, another superhuman who's extremely dangerous and powerful and wolverine ain't lookig so hot anymore...

spiderman.. well.. he excells at chaotic fights that are not 1on1's... why? because he's more easily able to use his best asset.. his spider sense.. without thinking or second guessing himself at every move... his every move will be instinctive in this fight he doesn't have to come up with a strategy and he doesn't have to rely on taking abuse for a win he can just dodge dodge dodge.. and neither wolverine or cap will have the focus, comitment, or the mentality to compensate for it now where they were able to in the past. spiderman will win this.

Originally posted by Dinalfos
Well, most SANE people anyway.

what exactly is SANE about comic books?


is it the radioactive non cancer inducing spider powers?

or the fact that every buff guy with a talent has to dress up like a mexican wrestler?


Originally posted by thedude1948
So wait he gets beat twice by Cap in Civil War but he can beat Cap Wolverine and Daredevil at the same time?
exactly.. that thread was ridiculous... any ONE of those guys can give spidey a hard time, and every one of them have had their fare share of wins over spiderman.. but all 3 of them can't beat him?

Originally posted by jinzin
what exactly is SANE about comic books?


is it the radioactive non cancer inducing spider powers?

or the fact that every buff guy with a talent has to dress up like a mexican wrestler?




You are once again confusing realism with internal logic.

Originally posted by jinzin
this I'll have to disagree with you on.. due to the chaotic nature of a 3 way fight, and the fact that cap is leagues ahead of both of these guys in terms of strategical thinking, it's not implausible that cap could use strategy to his advantage here... plus there's the problem that while both spidey and wolverine like and respect cap they tend to always bicker and fight with one another at the drop of a hat.. therefore cap could use that to his advantage as well.

"cap plays possem letting wolverine and spiderman wear at eachother. as wolverine throws lefts and rights at spidey, cap has backflipped out of the way; taking into account spiderman's ss he throws his sheild as the webslinger is avoiding wolverine's assault... the momentary awareness of danger causes spiderman to try and adapt to the incoming sheild only to get hit by wolverine's claws... as wolvie plunges his claws into the webslinger the sheild as boomeranged it's way back and nails wolverine in the side of the neck; his equilibrium distorted, cap comes in to land well place nerve shot after nerve shot."

I'm not saying cap wins this a majority of the time by any means but to state that any hope of him taking home a victory is purely and simply PIS is a statement that belongs in fantasy land, and I'm not talking about 616.

he's talking about civil war issue 3... spiderman and cap get into it and the last shot we see of their scuffle ends with cap landing a haymaker that's sending spidrman airborn and spread eagle.. thus.. cap had the advantage....

NOW... actually.. I think spiderman would win this fight. While cap has the advantage of strategical awareness, there's no guarantee that the plan he comes up with will go his way, or that do what he wants it to do. He has to keep on his toes not only being aware of incoming attacks from two superhumans but also being prepared to come up with strategies to hit one guy that is very hard to hit, and put another guy down that's very hard to put down....

that said.. wolverine has the virtue of taking punishment more than any other here but cap has proven to be handful for him on several occasions now.. throw in less concentration on cap, another superhuman who's extremely dangerous and powerful and wolverine ain't lookig so hot anymore...

spiderman.. well.. he excells at chaotic fights that are not 1on1's... why? because he's more easily able to use his best asset.. his spider sense.. without thinking or second guessing himself at every move... his every move will be instinctive in this fight he doesn't have to come up with a strategy and he doesn't have to rely on taking abuse for a win he can just dodge dodge dodge.. and neither wolverine or cap will have the focus, comitment, or the mentality to compensate for it now where they were able to in the past. spiderman will win this.

We're essentially in agreement here jin. I didn't deny that Cap would hold his own in this fight, but it's painfully obvious that he's the underdog against either of the other two, even accounting for his tactical brilliance.

...and as for the 2 insanely brief (and inconclusive) fights. Pete didn't even try to hurt Cap in their encounter in ASM 534. He tried to neutralize him so that they could talk (or that they could apprehend Cap). He was also ashamed to be fighting him, and was hardly trying.

As for CW #3, I don't really have an answer, but it was 1 punch that probably barely hurt Spidey, and if anyone tries to tell me that they're going to write Cap as anything but a street-level god in CW, they're very wrong.

All of this doesn't cover the fact that Spidey's power set is simply beyond Cap's, to the point where he shouldn't ever lose a full-scale fight against Cap.

P.S. For the record, I voted for the trio.

P.P.S. But I still say Spidey 6/10 in the Wolverine fight....though I realize it's very close and probably depends on the writer.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
We're essentially in agreement here jin. I didn't deny that Cap would hold his own in this fight, but it's painfully obvious that he's the underdog against either of the other two, even accounting for his tactical brilliance.

yes but you DID state that cap could only win through pure PIS.. which isn't at all true... he may be an underdog to SOME extent.. sure, but not to the point where he's a non factor in terms of win percentages in this fight.
He's skilled enough to take good fights to both characters on several occasions and even attain the upperhand on a couple.... he can win here.. it's just not going to happen often.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
...and as for the 2 insanely brief (and inconclusive) fights. Pete didn't even try to hurt Cap in their encounter in ASM 534. He tried to neutralize him so that they could talk (or that they could apprehend Cap). He was also ashamed to be fighting him, and was hardly trying.
that's based purely off of speculation.. it was cap that came to talk to spiderman, spiderman attacked him first.. he threw out attacks he just couldn't connect.. nothing in his internal monologue stated how little he was trying against cap but rather how impressive a fighter cap was to him... hell he even acknowledged that cap was a superior combatant and that the only way to beat him was gonna be by "spida style" lol...

Just because spiderman's offensive was ineffective against the living legend doesn't mean he wasn't trying. If more had been left to the imagination on what spidey thought about the fight your speculation might hold more water.. as it stands however your argument does not in light of evidence.


Originally posted by DigiMark007
As for CW #3, I don't really have an answer, but it was 1 punch that probably barely hurt Spidey,
another purely speculated assumption in SPITE of counter evidence...

cap's fists alone have put the wrecking crew, rhino, and absorbing man on the recieving end of ass beatings.. spiderman even in his spidey armor doesn't have that kind of durability... let's face it.. the last time cap punched spiderman airborn spiderman saw stars and commented on how powerful the hit was, the last time cap hit spiderman in his iron spidey suit pete went numb from the waist down...

there's very little evidence to say that the punch barely hurt him, especially considering the fact that he was airborn and he was spread eagle when he got nailed.

bullet proof armor is nice and all but it fails to impress when stacked up against a character like cap who has put down several villians with bullet proof costumes or skin via fisticuffs.



Originally posted by DigiMark007
All of this doesn't cover the fact that Spidey's power set is simply beyond Cap's, to the point where he shouldn't ever lose a full-scale fight against Cap. spidey is physically superior sure.. but as their fights have proven cap's skill, tactical awareness, cool head, and experience are enough to give spiderman a run for his money and make him think twice about what he was doing.
to say that spidey should never lose a fight against cap is again IN SPITE of multitudes of evidence that exists...

Originally posted by DigiMark007
P.S. For the record, I voted for the trio. as well you should. yes

Originally posted by DigiMark007
P.P.S. But I still say Spidey 6/10 in the Wolverine fight

Originally posted by Dinalfos
You are once again confusing realism with internal logic. I'm not confusing anything I keep the two seperate a talent you obviously lack.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
He tried to neutralize him so that they could talk (or that they could apprehend Cap). He was also ashamed to be fighting him, and was hardly trying.

Is that why Spidey attacked first when Cap was trying to talk to him?
Even if he was ashamed or not trying ( which I dont think he was.) he still admitted he couldnt hang with Cap H2H.

I dont understand why so many people hate on Cap. When Batgirl or Karate Kid beat someone who is "More Powerful" it is because they are skilled, but when Captain America does it is because he has "Jobber Aura"......

cause DC's freaking crazy!

one moment deathstroke is plucking flash off the street, punching out wonderwoman, and taking down the JLA over the course of 10 seconds...

on the other he's getting his ass handed to him by batman, robin, or nightwing...

I guess fighting skill only works in DC. In Marvel the guy who can bench more always wins....

Originally posted by thedude1948
I guess fighting skill only works in DC. In Marvel the guy who can bench more always wins....

no joke.. that's the number one argument for why spiderman wins fights on this board according to most people.. "he's faster and stronger"


it's not always about that.. but they never seem to get it.. (BTW:that's not at you digi).

Originally posted by rotiart
Yes I am....

Are you smokeing crack? please humor me defend this statement

Spidey pwns them all.

Originally posted by thedude1948
So wait he gets beat twice by Cap in Civil War but he can beat Cap Wolverine and Daredevil at the same time? He's beat multiple opponents before. And for the last time, this isn't the comic book, the match speculation was no CIS. 2 members of the trio would die in one hit. The ONLY way Cap is winning is inside of a comic... I can pull numerous examples of Spiderman beating vastly more powerful people.

Spiderman kills them. Cap is skilled enough to give Wolvie a good fight, but at his very best, Spidermaan would wipe him out.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
He's beat multiple opponents before. And for the last time, this isn't the comic book, the match speculation was no CIS. 2 members of the trio would die in one hit. The ONLY way Cap is winning is inside of a comic... I can pull numerous examples of Spiderman beating vastly more powerful people.

Spider-Man's fist would break if he hit someone with a 10 ton punch.
Since this is a not a comic book fight it is impossible for Spider-Man to really be this strong and still have the same body frame. Cap would only need to hit Spider-Man in the head with his shield once to KO him

i'm still waiting to see how rotiart belives cap is more agile than spider-man

If spiderman is written to his full-potential and not holding back he wins.

Originally posted by thedude1948
Spider-Man's fist would break if he hit someone with a 10 ton punch. His current strength is 15-20 tons and he doesn't need that. By that same token Logan would bleed to death... Bad logic. The inertia would be fine as it would transfer to the head, even if he hit it on the pavement he would be ok. He has a high metabolism so he heals faster, and he's leveled buildings before.



Originally posted by thedude1948
Since this is a not a comic book fight it is impossible for Spider-Man to really be this strong and still have the same body frame.
That's funny since Spiderman's skeletal and musculstature has been augmented to support his lifting strength, his body is more dense and he has more outside durability than Wolverine or Cap (this means it takes more force to do initial damage to him.)


Originally posted by thedude1948
Cap would only need to hit Spider-Man in the head with his shield once to KO him He can dodge a 70mph shield with little to no effort, since this is not a comic fight, Cap is only slightly greater than an Olympic athlete, Wolverine isn't that much more ahead.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
His current strength is 15-20 tons and he doesn't need that. By that same token Logan would bleed to death... Bad logic. The inertia would be fine as it would transfer to the head, even if he hit it on the pavement he would be ok. He has a high metabolism so he heals faster, and he's leveled buildings before.


That's funny since Spiderman's skeletal and musculstature has been augmented to support his lifting strength, his body is more dense and he has more outside durability than Wolverine or Cap (this means it takes more force to do initial damage to him.)

your whole arguement is bad logic. You say one thing and ignore the other. You take away Caps Super-human durability but keep Spidermans Super Strength which is only possible in a comic, You cannot augment a human body to lift 15-20 tons it is impossible, so he isnt getting Superhuman strength.

Spiderman cannot beat Cap H2H he admitted this, so in a non comic book fight would KO Spiderman with one punch since there is no way he could take a punch from someone at peak human strength, then when he is down Cap bashes his brains in with his shield.

Originally posted by thedude1948
your whole arguement is bad logic.


No, you just don't know what logic is, logic is a reason for inference.

the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.

People should take logic lessons seriously, the "it's a comic so there's no logic" is bull. It's a debate forum with COMIC characters, common sense still applies.

Originally posted by thedude1948
You say one thing and ignore the other.

Like you're doing now because you're biased?

Originally posted by thedude1948
You take away Caps Super-human durability

What the hell? Cap doesn't have superhuman durability, he's a peak human.

Originally posted by thedude1948
but keep Spidermans Super Strength which is only possible in a comic, Because Spiderman does have superhuman strength, it doesn't matter if you don't like it, tough. He has it, so he gets it in the forum. Why can't people grasp simple concepts on this forum? Why can't people understand that a peak human can't take a multiton hit at a high velocity?

Originally posted by thedude1948
You cannot augment a human body to lift 15-20 tons it is impossible, I didn't do anything, Marvel did.


Originally posted by thedude1948
so he isnt getting Superhuman strength.


Why do you people post this tripe? Dear sir, a trained MA hits at 2000 lbs per square inch, a boxer for 600. So a person who's density and musculstature are at 15-20 tons hitting at 300-400 mile velocity in the starting second can't ko a PEAK human? If you believe this then there are no words for that.

Originally posted by thedude1948
Spiderman cannot beat Cap H2H he admitted this, Cap also admitted that Spiderman could never touch him. Hell Wolverine admitted Spiderman can break his neck, I guess we can go by that to?

Originally posted by thedude1948
so in a non comic book fight would KO Spiderman with one punch since there is no way he could take a punch from someone at peak human strength, then when he is down Cap bashes his brains in with his shield. How about you're just a fanboy and wrong. This is the worst argument I've ever heard seroiusly, you're trying to take away the character? That's not how these forums work. You take the character as they ARE, and you put them in a theoretical match according to the rules, nowhere does it say that Spiderman or any other character loses their strength, by your poor logic Cap beats anyone on the forum... and in that case, there is no super soldier serum.

Cap fanboys are getting worse than Wolverine.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
No, you just don't know what logic is, logic is a reason for inference.

the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.

People should take logic lessons seriously, the "it's a comic so there's no logic" is bull. It's a debate forum with COMIC characters, common sense still applies.

I never said that, you are just using bad logic, Show me when Spider-Man has killed somebody on Caps level with a punch...


Like you're doing now because you're biased?
What the hell? Cap doesn't have superhuman durability, he's a peak human.

He has shown he has it so Marvel gave it to him. same logic, Taking punches from Iron-Man and not being knocked out is Superhuman Durability, he has it. You are just picking and choosing whatever you think is best for your argument.

Because Spiderman does have superhuman strength, it doesn't matter if you don't like it, tough. He has it, so he gets it in the forum. Why can't people grasp simple concepts on this forum? Why can't people understand that a peak human can't take a multiton hit at a high velocity?

I didn't do anything, Marvel did.

Same thing with Caps durability stop being a hypocrite. I Guess Caps durability is higher than your definition of peak human.


Why do you people post this tripe? Dear sir, a trained MA hits at 2000 lbs per square inch, a boxer for 600. So a person who's density and musculstature are at 15-20 tons hitting at 300-400 mile velocity in the starting second can't ko a PEAK human? If you believe this then there are no words for that.
That is BS, show me where a MA can hit 2000 lbs per square inch, a Boxer can hit way harder than any MA, And what does this have to do with the argument? Spiderman already has shown he cant land a punch on Cap.


Cap also admitted that Spiderman could never touch him. Hell Wolverine admitted Spiderman can break his neck, I guess we can go by that to?
where did cap say this? because in their fight cap "touched" him alot.

How about you're just a fanboy and wrong. This is the worst argument I've ever heard seroiusly, you're trying to take away the character? That's not how these forums work. You take the character as they ARE, and you put them in a theoretical match according to the rules, nowhere does it say that Spiderman or any other character loses their strength, by your poor logic Cap beats anyone on the forum... and in that case, there is no super soldier serum.

Cap fanboys are getting worse than Wolverine.
I already admitted Spiderman would win but your argument for him winning is one of the stupidest things I have ever read on this forum. You really need to calm down, this is a comic book forum no reason to get nerd raged about it.

the fight stands as is cap is peak human using 100% of human potential spider-man and wolverine are both meta humans they have abilities that go beyond what is possible for a normal human being that's the whole point of their powers so even in a real world situation the would still keep their power because they gain them through genetic alteration you can just say cap still has his power up but wolverine and spidy don't

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
comic fight, Cap is only slightly greater than an Olympic athlete, Wolverine isn't that much more ahead.


Why do you keep coming out with this? I am sorry but this blatant hypocrisy. Forget about wether Cap can beat Spiderman for a minute. You keep complaining about how people show scans of Spiderman in his lowest showings, Captain America from the dawn of time has shown in the comics that cap is far greater than an olympic athelete but you keep saying that he is only slightly above.

His bio does not say "slightly" and the comics show him doing stuff much greater than an olympic athelete, what is the logical conclusion.

You yourself use bios and the comics to determine what a character is capable of doing. Yes you do not accept everything from these sources but you still use them. Cap has been shown to be consistently greater than an olympic athelete but you're not having it?

I think maybe you should stop complaining about Cap fans.

Originally posted by lando005
the fight stands as is cap is peak human using 100% of human potential spider-man and wolverine are both meta humans they have abilities that go beyond what is possible for a normal human being that's the whole point of their powers so even in a real world situation the would still keep their power because they gain them through genetic alteration you can just say cap still has his power up but wolverine and spidy don't I'm glad someone else understands this.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Why do you keep coming out with this? I am sorry but this blatant hypocrisy. Forget about wether Cap can beat Spiderman for a minute. You keep complaining about how people show scans of Spiderman in his lowest showings, Captain America from the dawn of time has shown in the comics that cap is far greater than an olympic athelete but you keep saying that he is only slightly above. I keep complaining about how people put Spiderman in a match with cap, and get an orgasm over small details, when Spiderman has ko'ed less poplular people of the same status his whole career with a single flick.

Heroes do great things, and in a time of great stress he can go beyond that. 60 mph is about Superhuman speed. I'm not saying he can't do great things, but his basic level is that, that is a comic book, this is a forum. You don't see me bringing up Spiderman's ridiculous feats, more or less solid fact of his strength, speed, and abilities, because they can't be disputed. It was the same ordeal with the ryu thread, people use noncanon info or whatever they want, and do the opposite fr their own character.

Originally posted by Alfheim
His bio does not say "slightly" and the comics show him doing stuff much greater than an olympic athelete, what is the logical conclusion. All comics have characters doing crazy stuff, this is a debating forum.

Originally posted by Alfheim
You yourself use bios and the comics to determine what a character is capable of doing. Yes you do not accept everything from these sources but you still use them. Cap has been shown to be consistently greater than an olympic athelete but you're not having it? I don't accept everything from the sources for either character. I don't accept Spiderman beating firelord like some do, nor do I accept any of his ridiculous showings. I told you how I felt about his speed, and I accepted it in a life/death situation, as humans can do superhuman things. I told you about his strength and how I accepted that.

So where haven't I accepted his terms?

Originally posted by Alfheim
I think maybe you should stop complaining about Cap fans. When people write really dense things like, "Spiderman can't hit him but Cap can hit Spiderman more times than not" (utter bull and totally illogical, then I have no choice.

And I only complain about fanboys, not fans. There's a difference. MA fanboys can't seem to understand that a much faster and stronger opponent has the field advantage. Did anyone answer my rhino elephant comparison? I didn't think so.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Just that Spiderman hits incredibly hard.
Cap does to, Spiderman said so


Which is purely stupid on the behalf of anyone who thinks that, how can someone that is MUCH faster than you get hit more? Poor, poor writing, and to top it off he isn't fighting to the best of his abilities, since, it's not at this forum, and he heroworshipps Cap.
Maybe because Cap is more skilled in fighting than Spider-Man?


Cap, DD, and other peaks have already admitted that Spiderman is too fast for them in high gear. I think that would be quite obvious seeing his speed and precognition.

Then Amazing Spider-Man #534 and Civil War #3 retconned this.


And to think he has a stealth mode, who's using piss poor logic now?

You must not proofread your posts then.

Okay Ill agree with you on this, If Spider-Man used his stealth in a fight the whole time he would beat Cap, He wouldnt kill cap in one punch, but he would eventually beat him.


Yeah...

I'm not mad, thick people just annoy me, nothing I'm going to think about 10 minutes later though.

I was doing the same thing you were, applying biased, opinionated, real world logic to only one character.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I keep complaining about how people put Spiderman in a match with cap, and get an orgasm over small details, when Spiderman has ko'ed less poplular people of the same status his whole career with a single flick.


Ok what status are you talking about? Im sorry but this officially proves that you ignore important points made by debators, less popular people have given Spiderman trouble and have even beaten him. Are you going to use that point again?

Originally posted by Tha C-Master

Heroes do great things, and in a time of great stress he can go beyond that. 60 mph is about Superhuman speed. I'm not saying he can't do great things, but his basic level is that, that is a comic book, this is a forum.


Oh I see...so what you're telling me is that some one who is slightly above an Olympic athelete can dodge bullets and lasers for decades....just because there stressed.


Originally posted by Tha C-Master

You don't see me bringing up Spiderman's ridiculous feats, more or less solid fact of his strength, speed, and abilities, because they can't be disputed. It was the same ordeal with the ryu thread, people use noncanon info or whatever they want, and do the opposite fr their own character.


Good for you I try not to as well.

Originally posted by Alfheim

All comics have characters doing crazy stuff, this is a debating forum.


Yeah so what....answer the question

Originally posted by Alfheim

His bio does not say "slightly" and the comics show him doing stuff much greater than an olympic athelete, what is the logical conclusion.




Originally posted by Alfheim

I don't accept everything from the sources for either character. I don't accept Spiderman beating firelord like some do, nor do I accept any of his ridiculous showings. I told you how I felt about his speed, and I accepted it in a life/death situation, as humans can do superhuman things. I told you about his strength and how I accepted that.

So where haven't I accepted his terms?


No you have not accepted the terms you are coping out. First of all you keep saying that he is only slightly above an Olympic athlete, that is crap. The bio does not say slightly and his showings consistently show that he is far above an Olympic athlete. yes we can say something may be out of his range but he consitently dodges lasers and bullets no athletes can do that no matter how stressed they are.

Originally posted by Alfheim

When people write really dense things like, "Spiderman can't hit him but Cap can hit Spiderman more times than not" (utter bull and totally illogical, then I have no choice.


Well spiderman can hit Cap in close combat, but sorry if it comes to H2H Cap is probably going to win. First of all Cap is not slightly above olympic level he is far beyond and can be considered to be low level superhuman, furthermore he is a martial arts and tactical expert and Spiderman is not. Yes Spiderman has his won fighting style and is not stupid, but the fcat of the matter is he is agreat deal weaker than Cap in that department.

Originally posted by Alfheim

There's a difference. MA fanboys can't seem to understand that a much faster and stronger opponent has the field advantage.


For starters he is not much faster than Cap. For God sake , when they had that 7 point system cap was put one level under Spiderman. In the Marvel RPG Caps agility was put one level under Spiderman. Whats going on are these guys crazy?? He is slower than Spiderman but not by a huge margin. He is onl greater than him by a big deal in strength!!!

Originally posted by Alfheim

Did anyone answer my rhino elephant comparison? I didn't think so.


Im sorry its rubbish because you're comparing humans in the MU to ones in the real world. I maen for crying out loud the humans in the Mu were experimented on by The Celestals animals were not.

Furthermore if you look at the bio you used for cap it states in black and white that his fighting abilities give him the ability to beat much stronger and superhuman oponents.

<He is extremely skilled in hand-to-hand combat, sometimes taking on and defeating foes whose strength, size, or superpowers greatly exceed his.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Furthermore if you look at the bio you used for cap it states in black and white that his fighting abilities give him the ability to beat much stronger and superhuman oponents.

<He is extremely skilled in hand-to-hand combat, sometimes taking on and defeating foes whose strength, size, or superpowers greatly exceed his.

thats PIS/CIS!

Originally posted by thedude1948
thats PIS/CIS!



Yes and thats the quote the C-Master used in the Cap vs Spidey thread. He completely ignored that and one of things he deduced was that......ok nevermind dont want to give them ammuntion to focus on.

Spider-man.

Well....

A mighty "Touche" to all you Cap supporters out there. I was brought to the attention of 2 fights between Cap and Spidey recently, 1 in ASM 534 (inconclusive but Cap gets the better of it) and one in CW #3.

So, curious at this "2nd loss" in CW #3, I went back and checked...

Turns out, the first thing that happens in their scuffle is this: Cap throws his shield at Pete, who dodges it and redirects it at a bunch of people, hitting 3-4 opponents in the process. He then disappears for a moment before jumping out and thumping Cap good (there's a comment about a "butt-kicking button" that Pete makes at this point).

Only after that do we get a shot where they appear to be fighting in the distant background, and it looks like Cap is completing a punch and Parker is flying backwards a bit.

Thus.

Hardly the "win" Cap fans wanted, and again I'd simply say that it was inconclusive, and that anyone vaguely familiar with both power sets will realize that a brief advantage or a stalemate is the best Cap will ever do against Spidey.

...but I'll give you all credit. I actually believed whoever told me that Cap was winning, but it's obvious they chose to ignore certain aspects of the fight as well. I've spun a fair amount of half-truths in my day to work an angle, so I know what it's like.

Thus endeth Digi's fanboy-driven rant.

hey if u want to talk abont cap vs spider man by iceman13 or now me then go to that thread this is cap vs wolverine vs spider man and i sey cap wins, i saw a wolverine comic that cap kicks his ass and in a spider man comic he kicks spider man ass too and thus name cap the winner.

in all the cap vs spider-man talk seems like wolverine's been forgotten

ya thats whats am talking about is not cap vs spider man its cap vs wolverine vs spider man

Originally posted by newavenger13
i saw a wolverine comic that cap kicks his ass No you didn't. Not in a fair 1 on 1 fight you didn't. You may have seen Cap hit a nearly dead Wolverine from behind with his shield, but that in no way constitutes an ass-kicking. 1 on1 Wolverine has beaten Cap, twice.

This is getting quite ridiculous, I'm a bit tired of people taking my points way out of context, and then contradicting themselves in the same quote. This is when arguing with people like this enters its climax and you're only hitting your head on a brick wall this point out. I just got out of a long day of work and my head is killing me, this won't help it.


Originally posted by thedude1948
I did say that as an example, you ignore Caps durability because it isnt possible in the real world, but it is okay for Spider-Man. No, you really need to listen, I have ignored NOTHING for Spiderman because the example wasn't of Spiderman, it was for Cap. Furthermore you have problems correlating points, because my initial point had NOTHING to do with the real world? Where are you getting this from? Do you ignore things on purpose. I don't ignore points, I debunk them, your point was DEBUNKED because in the forum it would be a different story than in a comic book. A hero will never permenantly kill Cap with a 1 hit, be it Iron Man, or a Mountain Shattering Hulk. Your argument is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard, and you are taking my points out of context, when people do that it brings another side of me. Stop putting words in my mouth and stop assuming. Alfheim is getting a bit worse as he knows my argument at this point, and he's still taking it out of tangent.


Originally posted by thedude1948
Okay you use evidence of Spider-Mans in comic feats to form your idea of what he is capable of right? When have I said you could NOT do the same? Could you please go and point that out for me, I'll be thoroughly impressed. I'll be more impressed if you tell me which of Spiderman's feats are not feasable for a 15-20 ton, 120,000 per meter tensile strength webber, 15 or more times faster, agile, and precognitive character, as opposed to what Cap gets away with, being a class THREE in all of his categories as a peak human (making him a 800 lb lifter in default).



Originally posted by thedude1948
Well Marvel said he can so you cant ignore it.

Marvel said he can what? What, please tell me? Or are you talking about writing in this forum by different writers that is open to interpretation anyways.

Originally posted by thedude1948
You really are showing that you are a fanboy,

No, not really. You are using that as a retort because I called you one (notices your avatar, and the other defender's avatar in here). I haven't said anything of Spiderman to be too extreme, and it's common knowledge that he has the power to kill/ko Captain America in this forum without the bias of writers or a fanbase, if you don't like it, tough, I don't care. This isn't a comic, it's a theoretical debate for discussing COMIC characters. Understand that, and then go and understand Spiderman.

Originally posted by thedude1948
Maybe he isnt killed by those things because he has..... Super-human durability? Maybe you are just too dense and biased. Could you go and prove where Cap is stated at Superhuman anything? He is a peak human-the pinnacle of what a human can be. Not what you want him to be. Captain America is NOT bullet proof, so why in the **** is getting hit by guys like Hulk and Iron Man without dying? Explain that to me if you're so smart. 100 tons is 1/5 of a million pounds, and that's at the bottom of it. Iron Man and Hulk aren't.

We've already established that Spiderman holds back in his fights and that he isn't a killer, for anyone to say otherwise is ignorant of Spiderman.

Ridiculous argument, and I want Cap's "superhuman durability" I keep hearing about. Please.


Originally posted by thedude1948
You use examples of Spider-Mans feats to form your opinion on what Spider-Man is capable of, but its PIS if we do the same with Captain America? sounds alittle fanboy-ish.

Again I want you to go out and point where I've said this, please. The points that I've brought in are EASILY done by a person of Spiderman's calibur, I've proven that either way and you've simply ignored it (as you did with my martial arts evidence). You on the other hand are trying to argue a guy who isn't BULLETPROOF to take incredible amounts of force stronger than bullets with no problem, but he wouldn't be dodging them in the first place. Damned stupid fanboy argument.


Originally posted by thedude1948
Well IMO .....

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/4029/scan1ry6.jpg
http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/8812/scan2su4.jpg He should have been dead, and he's not doing well, so what was your point of bringing it up?

Originally posted by thedude1948
No you stated that Spiderman can kill a peak-human with a punch, Marvel has shown differently. Because we all know that Spiderman is a killer.

You haven't shown one way that someone is going to survive a multiton punch, it would utterly crack his skull. A peak human is a human at it's best and that's not even bulletproof (hell Spiderman isn't and his body is VERY dense). You are going to have to explain that one to me. But I know you won't, you'll just go on more assanine rambling.

Originally posted by thedude1948
You are being a hypocrite because you are putting different real world standards on Captain America than you are on Spider-man.

1. I haven't and didn't start the "real world argument" you did, and it was flawed, because you started some stupid bullshit about Spiderman not being able to blah blah blah because it couldn't happen in the real world. Sorry it doesn't work that way, we accept them as characters and logic applies. What you don't understand, or would rather not accept is that debates NEED a logical grounding in them. You haven't seen me argue that Spiderman can take ridiculous amounts of force, simply that he could deliver greater foreces than Cap can take, hell, he can just drop a sub on him. You've shown that you know little of force, fighting, and real world logic anyways, and you're only contradicting yourself.

2. Cap is a PEAK human, Spiderman is not.

Originally posted by thedude1948
You use comic feats for Spider-Man as evidence but ignore Captain America's feats because in your opinion a peak human could not do the same. Spiderman is superhuman, I'm sure Cap can't do the same as Spiderman, terrible argument.

Originally posted by thedude1948
Punching bricks is different than punches in a fight.

Utterly dismissing my point (and doing a terrible job grasping it altogether_, and that was distribution of force. Force= pressure times area. Doesn't matter what I hit, all that matters is that I hit it with a great amount of force. There is proificiencies in a fight, hence why there are different types of damage, Spiderman's damage is CONCUSSIVE damage which means that it is blunt force over a wider area. With the shape of Cap's skull it will not give in it will resist (different than a flat stomach) this same argument was brought up with Wolverine, I took care of that. Consider this point utterly debunked, since Spderman can backhand people 20feet back, like he did with Wolverine and Cap's much lighter, they aren't even 1/100th of his lifting power, so it's logical.

Originally posted by thedude1948
Cap does to, Spiderman said so

I have no problem accepting he hits hard, it doesn't bother me one bit, but he doesn't hit 1/50th as hard as what Spiderman does.

Originally posted by thedude1948
Maybe because Cap is more skilled in fighting than Spider-Man?

If you think a bit of skill will make up for such a shortcoming, you would be as ridiculous as saying a human beats and elephant or rhino. The difference in physicality is simply THAT big.

Originally posted by thedude1948
Then Amazing Spider-Man #534 and Civil War #3 retconned this. How so.

Originally posted by thedude1948
Okay Ill agree with you on this, If Spider-Man used his stealth in a fight the whole time he would beat Cap,

Thank you.

Originally posted by thedude1948
He wouldnt kill cap in one punch, but he would eventually beat him.

I'm not even saying SPIDERMAN could only do it, I'm saying that ANY skilled MA could do it. Hit him under the nose or in the temple he's out. I do fighting and I know all of the pressure points and nerve points in the body. Spiderman CAN knock him out much easier, and not have a guilty conscience about it.

Originally posted by thedude1948
I was doing the same thing you were, applying biased, opinionated, real world logic to only one character. You were applying wrong, wrong, wrong, logic to both characters, you should thank me that I took care of that for you.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok what status are you talking about? Im sorry but this officially proves that you ignore important points made by debators, What you are proving is that you consistently miss points and trains of thought. It doesn't matter how much "he's above an xxx" the fact is that he's PEAK human, he is. No matter how many scans you pull up of him catching missles won't change that. I counter every point, and just because I don't agree with it, doesn't mean I ignore it. I'm not obligated to agree with every thing you say, it doesn't work that way.


Originally posted by Alfheim
less popular people have given Spiderman trouble and have even beaten him. Are you going to use that point again?

Pull out these strings of less popular people that have beat Spiderman in a fair 1on1 fight where outside intereference wasn't a factor, and that opponent was statistically the same as Cap, do this and I'll be uber impressed.


Originally posted by Alfheim
Oh I see...so what you're telling me is that some one who is slightly above an Olympic athelete can dodge bullets and lasers for decades....just because there stressed. Bullets and lasers are some of the biggest jobbers in comics my friend.


Originally posted by Alfheim
No you have not accepted the terms you are coping out.

I'm "coping" out because I'm sooo scared of debating with you guys... right.

I didn't actually disagree, I agreed that it could be done in certain situations, but he's not running faster than he throws his shield, sorry.

Originally posted by Alfheim
First of all you keep saying that he is only slightly above an Olympic athlete, that is crap. How about this, he's PEAK human from now on, go it?


Originally posted by Alfheim
The bio does not say slightly and his showings consistently show that he is far above an Olympic athlete. He's once again peak human, and he's obviously going to do crazy things in a comic, since it's well, a comic.


Originally posted by Alfheim
yes we can say something may be out of his range
Alot actually like taking hits from Hulk and Iron Man.

Originally posted by Alfheim
but he consitently dodges lasers and bullets no athletes can do that no matter how stressed they are. 1. You should really try dodgin bullets one day, it's not so bad because it relies on this next point.

2. There's a difference between dodging and missing on behalf of the marksman. Spiderman dodges, if he would have stayed in that same spot he would have been hit, that is different from the marksman missing.

3. It's a comic and he's a hero, there have been average Joes who've done it as well here and there. Again I'm not saying Cap can't DO superhuman feats, only that he's not superhuman, there's a difference.


Originally posted by Alfheim
Well spiderman can hit Cap in close combat, but sorry if it comes to H2H Cap is probably going to win. If Spidemran is fighting like a comic and not in this forum to the best of his abilities. Unless again you think a human beats a rhino or elephant, in which there's no more point in debating with you, because you would have proven yourself to be a fanboy.


Originally posted by Alfheim
First of all Cap is not slightly above olympic level he is far beyond a
Done with this, it's a waste of time.

Originally posted by Alfheim
nd can be considered to be low level superhuman,
No.

Originally posted by Alfheim
furthermore he is a martial arts and tactical expert and Spiderman is not.
Spiderman is rather tactical, but then again Cap isn't getting prep time for this match, it's a spontaneous, unheard of match with basic knowledge of each character. All the tactics in the world won't help me if I don't have what it takes physical or otherwise to consistently prove a threat.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yes Spiderman has his won fighting style and is not stupid, but the fcat of the matter is he is agreat deal weaker than Cap in that department. And Cap is much weaker than Spiderman everywhere else across the board than Spiderman is in fighting, Spiderman is a 4 in fighting.


Originally posted by Alfheim
For starters he is not much faster than Cap.

Please, for starters the stronger a muscle is the faster it moves. If SPidemran launched his 30,000 power into a jump he would clear some seroius room. He's so fast that characters have been unable to hit him when he's going all out, multiple or single. Like he would fight in this forum. His reflexes, equilibruim, agility, and speed allow him to do so, he is built for it, like a cheetah is built for speed.

Originally posted by Alfheim
For God sake , when they had that 7 point system cap was put one level under Spiderman.
But the gap was huge, the next level was 900lbs to 25 tons. That's what matters.

Originally posted by Alfheim
In the Marvel RPG Caps agility was put one level under Spiderman.

1. Spiderman is considered the most agile character in Marvel, I assure you Cap will never move better than Spiderman on his best day unless some writer is at fault, cap needs more effort to do half of what Spiderman does physically.

2. Agility and speed are NOT the same thing.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Whats going on are these guys crazy?? He is slower than Spiderman but not by a huge margin. Covered already. Cap isn't 15-20x faster than a human at all, he isn't more agile than DD who (as much as you hate it) was considered Olympic.

Sorry.


Originally posted by Alfheim
He is onl greater than him by a big deal in strength!!!

And precog, range, speed, wall crawling, and stopping power due to velocity and speed.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Im sorry its rubbish because you're comparing humans in the MU to ones in the real world. I maen for crying out loud the humans in the Mu were experimented on by The Celestals animals were not.

Comics are still built around the real world, and by using this you are copping out by saying that Comics shouldn't have a logical comparison in a debate without PIS/CIS. These have forum modifiers, so they have to be potrayed more realistically as such.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Furthermore if you look at the bio you used for cap it states in black and white that his fighting abilities give him the ability to beat much stronger and superhuman oponents.

<He is extremely skilled in hand-to-hand combat, sometimes taking on and defeating foes whose strength, size, or superpowers greatly exceed his. All heroes do this, so I miss your point, he just isn't doing it here.

Originally posted by thedude1948
thats PIS/CIS!

You completely need to go study the rules. Now.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yes and thats the quote the C-Master used in the Cap vs Spidey thread. He completely ignored that and one of things he deduced was that......ok nevermind dont want to give them ammuntion to focus on. No I didn't, I have no problem with Cap doing that, he's a cool character. He just isn't winning because you pasted that. ( I know you think he loses.)

Originally posted by riceroost
No you didn't. Not in a fair 1 on 1 fight you didn't. You may have seen Cap hit a nearly dead Wolverine from behind with his shield, but that in no way constitutes an ass-kicking. 1 on1 Wolverine has beaten Cap, twice. It does when you're biased enough.

A hero will never permenantly kill Cap with a 1 hit, be it Iron Man, or a Mountain Shattering Hulk. Your argument is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard, and you are taking my points out of context, when people do that it brings another side of me. Stop putting words in my mouth and stop assuming. Alfheim is getting a bit worse as he knows my argument at this point, and he's still taking it out of tangent. Cap surviving the punches is due to his durability and his fighting skill, he knows how to take punches and can roll with it to avoid permanent damage.


When have I said you could NOT do the same? Could you please go and point that out for me, I'll be thoroughly impressed. I'll be more impressed if you tell me which of Spiderman's feats are not feasable for a 15-20 ton, 120,000 per meter tensile strength webber, 15 or more times faster, agile, and precognitive character, as opposed to what Cap gets away with, being a class THREE in all of his categories as a peak human (making him a 800 lb lifter in default). And he is a 7 in fighting ability (picking and choosing again?...yep).


Maybe you are just too dense and biased. Could you go and prove where Cap is stated at Superhuman anything? He is a peak human-the pinnacle of what a human can be. Not what you want him to be. Captain America is NOT bullet proof, so why in the **** is getting hit by guys like Hulk and Iron Man without dying? Explain that to me if you're so smart. 100 tons is 1/5 of a million pounds, and that's at the bottom of it. Iron Man and Hulk aren't.
We've already established that Spiderman holds back in his fights and that he isn't a killer, for anyone to say otherwise is ignorant of Spiderman.
Ridiculous argument, and I want Cap's "superhuman durability" I keep hearing about. Please.

Okay maybe I went too far saying he has Superhuman durability, but he can mimic it due to his fighting skills and being able to take and roll with a punch (which takes skill.) So nope he wont be dying from a punch by Spider-man.


Again I want you to go out and point where I've said this, please. The points that I've brought in are EASILY done by a person of Spiderman's calibur, I've proven that either way and you've simply ignored it (as you did with my martial arts evidence). You on the other hand are trying to argue a guy who isn't BULLETPROOF to take incredible amounts of force stronger than bullets with no problem, but he wouldn't be dodging them in the first place. Damned stupid fanboy argument.




Spider-man is only a 4 in fighting in his profile, so that shows he probably cant use his full power in his punches because he doesnt have enough skill to do so. Also why cant he dodge them? Combat-wise Cap is a genius, he can think before and predict his opponents next move.


He should have been dead, and he's not doing well, so what was your point of bringing it up?
Or maybe he can knows how to take a punch and roll with it due to his fighting ability.


Because we all know that Spiderman is a killer. roll eyes (sarcastic)

or because he doesnt have the skills to kill someone like Cap with a punch (Punching takes skill.)


You haven't shown one way that someone is going to survive a multiton punch, it would utterly crack his skull. A peak human is a human at it's best and that's not even bulletproof (hell Spiderman isn't and his body is VERY dense). You are going to have to explain that one to me. But I know you won't, you'll just go on more assanine rambling.

Spidermans Durability is the SAME as Caps, they are both at 3. Cap is going to dodge and roll with the punches thats how. Just because Spider-Man is faster doesnt mean all the speed is going to translate into quickness in a fight that takes SKILL which Cap has alot more of.


1. I haven't and didn't start the "real world argument" you did, and it was flawed, because you started some stupid bullshit about Spiderman not being able to blah blah blah because it couldn't happen in the real world. Sorry it doesn't work that way, we accept them as characters and logic applies. What you don't understand, or would rather not accept is that debates NEED a logical grounding in them. You haven't seen me argue that Spiderman can take ridiculous amounts of force, simply that he could deliver greater foreces than Cap can take, hell, he can just drop a sub on him. You've shown that you know little of force, fighting, and real world logic anyways, and you're only contradicting yourself.

2. Cap is a PEAK human, Spiderman is not.


your argument so far has been Spider-man punches Cap, he dies. Even though Cap is a way better fighter which Spider-man admits he cant fight H2H, you keep assuming that his strength and slight speed advantage is going to make up for it. You completely ignore the skill factor in a fight (more specifically a punch.) His strength and Speed isnt going to crossover 100% into his fighting ability simply because he doesnt have the skills to. Thats how it works in the "real world"



If you think a bit of skill will make up for such a shortcoming, you would be as ridiculous as saying a human beats and elephant or rhino. The difference in physicality is simply THAT big.

That is a stupid analogy, I am not going to even respond to this.....

'm not even saying SPIDERMAN could only do it, I'm saying that ANY skilled MA could do it. Hit him under the nose or in the temple he's out. I do fighting and I know all of the pressure points and nerve points in the body. Spiderman CAN knock him out much easier, and not have a guilty conscience about it.

Pressure points in fighting is Bullshit. It is a myth you cant focus on pressure points in a fight, especially when your opponent is resisting., 1 punch is not going to kill any resisting opponent, you are just spewing BS. In a fight you cant focus on punching a small area like the temple or right under the nose, you can practice it all you want in your "dojo" but in the real world with a resisting opponent it will do you no good. If any MA can kill cap with 1 punch than they can do the same to Spidey since they have the same durability (But a MA couldnt because in real world scenario even a 1 punch KO from a skilled fighter is very very rare.)
also Boxing > just about any martial art in punching skills in a real fight.

Originally posted by thedude1948
Cap surviving the punches is due to his durability and his fighting skill, he knows how to take punches and can roll with it to avoid permanent damage. Otherwise it's PIS right and you're just too in denial to admit it? Where is Cap rolling out of punches in these comics? Funny how I never see them, and if you think that he's rolling out of a multiton force punch from characters who can move faster than the speed of sound, then you are truly a waste of sperm. I don't see what's so hard to understand about this, why can't fanboys simply see this logic that a character who can level buildings can nail a peak human.

Originally posted by thedude1948
And he is a 7 in fighting ability (picking and choosing again?...yep). What does this have to do with his durabity, and it only means that he has mastered many styles. Again so what, it's not how many styles you master it's how you apply just the one you use. All styles are meant to counter another style so you need a style to counter that. What MA fanboys like to do is use the fighting system to make up for RIDICULOUS shortcomings a character has. In a comic book the character lives because the writer wants him too, simple.


Originally posted by thedude1948
Okay maybe I went too far saying he has Superhuman durability,

Then you know you're wrong aboutt he rest, he isn't taking superhuman force.

Originally posted by thedude1948
but he can mimic it due to his fighting skills
What the hell? How is he taking a punch and throwing one at the same time, Cap simply throws a normal ass punch like any other superhero most of the time, but since he is Captain America, his punch turns into some uber punch of death? Uhhh no. Spiderman has already ko'ed peak humans with a backhand, swat, and even a flick.

Originally posted by thedude1948
and being able to take and roll with a punch (which takes skill.) These fanboy arguments are starting to make me laugh a bit. Do you know how hard Spiderman can hit, he went through Venom's durability and made him feel it. And then Iron Man's and Hulk's? Good lord.

Spiderman is the better roller then, seeing as he moves better and has been doing it for... 3 decades, and since he has a higher aptitude in it... well... there goes your argument.


And again, where is Cap doing all this rolling that his worshippers keep talking about?

Originally posted by thedude1948
So nope he wont be dying from a punch by Spider-man.

That's right, he's going to roll from a shotgun-force style punch to the face, I would invite you to look up shotgun suicides at rotten.com, but I don't think I even need to do I?



Originally posted by thedude1948
Spider-man is only a 4 in fighting in his profile, so that shows he probably cant use his full power in his punches because he doesnt have enough skill to do so.

Punching is Power and Movment, Spiderman has a higher velocity as well.

Only a 4? That means he's skilled. It isn't really that hard to throw a good punch, and even at half it's power it's devastating, NOONE puts all of their power into a single strike as it takes their leverage off. But seeing as you know little about fighting anyways...


Punching is Power and Movment, Spiderman has a higher velocity as well.

Originally posted by thedude1948
Also why cant he dodge them? I can dodge a bullet, I didn't say he couldn't, only there's a difference in dodging and the marksman missing therefore.

Captain America isn't bulletproof, and Spiderman hit's harder than that, Cap's armor makes the bullet concussive like Spiderman's fist.

Spiderman on the other hand IS bulletproof, making Cap's match that much more ridiculous.

Originally posted by thedude1948
Combat-wise Cap is a genius, he can think before and predict his opponents next move. Spiderman has been predicting for ages, and he will have a harder time predicting Spiderman's movements because he is more unorthodox and has his own style. Cap should be moving in slow motion to Spiderman. Too many people have been unable to see him in high gear.

And his "predicting" still doesn't beat pre-cog.


Originally posted by thedude1948
Or maybe he can knows how to take a punch and roll with it due to his fighting ability. Spiderman's, Iron Man's, and Hulk's punches aren't punches you would roll out of, they are punches that send you flying, why do people bother posting this?


Originally posted by thedude1948
or because he doesnt have the skills to kill someone like Cap with a punch (Punching takes skill.) This is taking the piss, it doesn't take bruce lee to hit hard. I can get a baseball bat and kill a person with ONE swing upside the head. I didn't have to train for years to do it, but I could. So why can't Spiderman's fist, which has the power of mortar rounds and can shatter concrete not nail Cap?

Spell Plot Induced Stupidity with me please.

Even if the blow wouldn't crack his skull, his brain would rock at such a momentum and hit his skull that it would kill Cap, Cap's brain isn't super durable.



Originally posted by thedude1948
Spidermans Durability is the SAME as Caps, they are both at 3. And Wolverine is a 4 in strength with Spiderman but he lifts over 30,000 lbs less. Spiderman is more durable due to his muscular density, his skeletal density (which you totally ignored), his agility (which allows him to take less damage), his precog which even if he gets hit, it won't be by the full thing, and his flexibility, the more flexible you are the less likely you are to be injured.

Originally posted by thedude1948
Cap is going to dodge and roll with the punches thats how. Riiiight, keep telling yourself that. He'll be flying more like.

Originally posted by thedude1948
Just because Spider-Man is faster doesnt mean all the speed is going to translate into quickness in a fight *sigh* this really doesn't deserve a response, honestly, if Spiderman wanted to he could simply yank himself about 5 stories in the air.

Originally posted by thedude1948
that takes SKILL which Cap has alot more of.

Most retarded post award. Cap is not Ryu or Akuma, and cannot amp his ki/chi to superhuman levels.

This just shows how biased the posters are on the board against Spiderman. They make him look like some scrub when he's been fighting for decades, DECADES. He *utilized* a system based on being fast, it's what he relies on, his higher aptitude for power and speed. Cap on his best day will NEVER be quicker than SPiderman, ever. Spiderman is using a skill when he moves, skill is an application of something. I'm sure Spiderman knows alot more about movement than most characters in Marvel, in your same silly argument you could say Cap outran flash or quicksilver. Stupid, inane, and asinine. There's a difference in being *skilled* at something and being built at something. An olympic swimmer is probably one of the best in the world, but would it ever outswim a shark? No. An Olympic runner may try to run the best in the world, even be THE world's fastest, but will he outrun a cheetah? God no. We use skill and intelligence to make up for our shortcomings, but without technology we'll never, ever beat something that has a body BUILT for something. All Cap has is that he doesn't fatigue due to lack of lactic acid.

Now Go to YOUR room!!!

http://www.boystownpress.org/ProdImages/85-040.jpg

Originally posted by thedude1948
your argument so far has been Spider-man punches Cap, he dies. No, that was what this discussion opened up about, Spiderman can win in stealth (which I mentioned) and by his webbing. But you are just going to ignore it to help your crumbling argument.

Originally posted by thedude1948
Even though Cap is a way better fighter which Spider-man admits he cant fight H2H,
Spiderman said he's 40x faster than a human in a comic? Wolverine admitted Spiderman could snap his neck? So? Spiderman always sells himself short, and he worshipps cap.

Originally posted by thedude1948
you keep assuming that his strength and slight speed advantage is going to make up for it. HUGE strength, speed, webbing, wallcrawling, and early warning system will make up for it. When cap holds up subs and moves faster than several people can detect at once, you let me know. You seem to think Caps skill advantage (which only matters a moderate amount), will help him. So what if he has styles, his styles won't work as well against a "person" who can stick to walls. It won't.

Originally posted by thedude1948
You completely ignore the skill factor in a fight (more specifically a punch.) You mean like the skill of applying movement, and the skill of staying out of reach. You've ignored the science of a punch, the science of proficiency, the science of damage... I can go on for days.


Oh and the fact that he holds back.

Originally posted by thedude1948
His strength and Speed isnt going to crossover 100% into his fighting ability simply because he doesnt have the skills to.

I think they will work fine as he's used his abilities in his fighting for years, but fanboys only ignore he holds back.

Originally posted by thedude1948
Thats how it works in the "real world"
This is a debating forum, follow my breadcrumbs Gretel.

Originally posted by thedude1948
That is a stupid analogy, I am not going to even respond to this.....
I've noticed none of the fanboys will, it kills their argument. That or they try to add weapons, which completely KILLS the point. I can go find videos of MA's trying to fight such creatures (hell even a gorilla which is only 5x stronger) and still lose. Why didn't that skill help them.


Originally posted by thedude1948
Pressure points in fighting is Bullshit.


No they aren't, I've used them myself to withhold a person I was fighting so that I wouldn't have to hurt them worse.

Originally posted by thedude1948
It is a myth you cant focus on pressure points in a fight, especially when your opponent is resisting., That is what they're for stupid. People use them when going into war. You manage your leverage and you look for the opportunity to fight. There are so very many, but you wouldn't know. So speak for yourself. You look for an opening while covering theirs.

Originally posted by thedude1948
1 punch is not going to kill any resisting opponent, you are just spewing BS.

If you have a situation where the person is rushing towards you, and you hit them with your palm upwards into the nose... you don't realize how easy it can be to kill a person.

Originally posted by thedude1948
In a fight you cant focus on punching a small area like the temple or right under the nose, That's why there are so many more.

Bicep, if they're holding a weapon.
Throat
Under the ear.
Side of neck
Under the arm
Sternal Colum
Kidney's work fine
Hanging ribs
Thigh
Knee
Foot can work.
Achilles tendon with a knife
The heart
The stomach isn't one technically one but it subdues them fine.

They really hurt like hell, and can be fatal within a short period of time, espcially in the face, but those are the hardes to hit, with the torso and legs working in reverse order.

Then there's nerve points, but I won't go there.

Originally posted by thedude1948
you can practice it all you want in your "dojo" but in the real world with a resisting opponent it will do you no good. Well thank you for debunking the very foundation of your character for me. It's a point I used to stress back when I joined, that styles are very overrated, and a person who has fought more will beat a person in a dojo. That's why I care about fighting efficiency (that means the person who wins the fight is a better fighter, i.e Spiderman). And not the person who sat in Karate class. Which I really haven't done in about 10 years. I've done some militiary and other things. It's really about the fundamentals. Thank you for seeing this, you've really helped me out.

Originally posted by thedude1948
If any MA can kill cap with 1 punch than they can do the same to Spidey since they have the same durability

But with alot more effort as Spiderman's body is more dense, and he's harder to hit, but if done effectively from someone like Iron fist it can work.

Originally posted by thedude1948
(But a MA couldnt because in real world scenario even a 1 punch KO from a skilled fighter is very very rare.) No... it's really not. Most fights are only a few seconds and hits, not what you see in TV and movies.


Originally posted by thedude1948
also Boxing > just about any martial art in punching skills in a real fight. Overall yes, but as far as application of pressure and forces, no. I'm sure you know that though.

Originally posted by thedude1948


or because he doesnt have the skills to kill someone like Cap with a punch (Punching takes skill.)



Spidermans Durability is the SAME as Caps, they are both at 3. Cap is going to dodge and roll with the punches thats how. Just because Spider-Man is faster doesnt mean all the speed is going to translate into quickness in a fight that takes SKILL which Cap has alot more of.



your argument so far has been Spider-man punches Cap, he dies. Even though Cap is a way better fighter which Spider-man admits he cant fight H2H, you keep assuming that his strength and slight speed advantage is going to make up for it. You completely ignore the skill factor in a fight (more specifically a punch.) His strength and Speed isnt going to crossover 100% into his fighting ability simply because he doesnt have the skills to. Thats how it works in the "real world"



Pressure points in fighting is Bullshit. It is a myth you cant focus on pressure points in a fight, especially when your opponent is resisting., 1 punch is not going to kill any resisting opponent, you are just spewing BS. In a fight you cant focus on punching a small area like the temple or right under the nose, you can practice it all you want in your "dojo" but in the real world with a resisting opponent it will do you no good. If any MA can kill cap with 1 punch than they can do the same to Spidey since they have the same durability (But a MA couldnt because in real world scenario even a 1 punch KO from a skilled fighter is very very rare.)
also Boxing > just about any martial art in punching skills in a real fight.


ok i've been reading this and i would stay out of your argument if it wasnt for a few things i would like to point out to you

1. spider-man would NEVER under any condition KILL ANYONE. To even suggest that he would mean's your looseing sight of who the charater is, yes it's debateable that spider-man has the power to kill cap but we all know he would never use it so stop sayin it. He's all about responsiblity we all know this there's no argueing that fact he would NEVER KILL.

2. Spier-man's speed and durablity are not the same as caps, whole i aree that 100% of true human potential would make captain america a low level superhuman by comparison to the rest of the earthbound mu charaters he's not in the same leauge as spidy in either departments. Spider-man is as durible as he is strong that's just physics his body has to be as durible as it is in order for him to utilize his strenght otherwise when he goes to lift a heavy object like a car or truck he'ld just hurt himself instead. Also spidy's speed is about as fast as you get without being classified a super speeder, i'm not sayin he can outrun speeding vehicles on foot or anything but he would definatly out run cap by a very large margin, he has the speed to back up his reflexes which brings me to my next point. For you to say spider-mans reflexes are slower than caps is just out right ignorant. based purly on reaction time spider-man is one of the fastes in marvel even without the spidersense (granted without it he would be a bit slower to react ) the spidersnes does more than alert him to the danger if it's an imediate threat lest say the rhino chargeing at him at full speed his spidersense would make his body want to move out the way. Peter has stated serveal time in the past that he has had to ignore his spidersense in order to do something else if he hadn't his spidersense and reflexes would have caused him to move out of harms way, in other words going just off instinct spidy's relfexes are almost unmatched, and when he's jusing logic he does slow down a bit but he's still far above cap.

3. The whole pressure point in combat situation is NOT BS. I can vouch for this personally. To say that means that you yourself do not have much combat experiance as a trained fighter i can tell you that that is what you do. Why do you think we spend all that time "training in the dojo" we are embbeding ourselves with mucle memory a highly trainted fighter doesnt even have to be paying attention to what he's doing if he's attacked because he has traned and conditioned himself the way he has his body will react in the way he's been trained, WHAT DO YOU THINK CAP DOES he is a highly trained martial artest it many not always be depicted in every pannel of every comic but every movement in his body is already a highly calculated move which is ment to leadhim into his next move and so on and so on it's called chain fighting it's the very reason why iornman recored all of his movements every blow has a precise target ANY REAL FIGHTER KNOWS THIS you dont just swing away randomly.

and to wrap it all up spider-man's body is a high preformance machine designed to react in a instant and move faster, his durablity is proporrtainat to his strenght, when he lets his instincts take over it's all but impossible to beat him, you take all of that power that his b ody is capable of and you ad on peter's genuis intellect and it has lead him to his own style of fighting (remember he had no fighing experiance prior to being spider-man) one that is almost impossible to predict makeing him seem even faster ( although there have been few people who by observation of his movements are able to read his moves giving them a slight edge in h2h combat with him, thoes people are CAPTAIN AMERICA, daredevil, wolverine, and the green goblin

Excellent, excellent post, summed what I said just fine.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
What you are proving is that you consistently miss points and trains of thought. It doesn't matter how much "he's above an xxx" the fact is that he's PEAK human, he is.


Yeah but if you look at his feats alot of them can be considered superhuman

Originally posted by Tha C-Master

No matter how many scans you pull up of him catching missles won't change that.


Did I pull a scan of him catching a missle?

Originally posted by Tha C-Master

I counter every point, and just because I don't agree with it, doesn't mean I ignore it. I'm not obligated to agree with every thing you say, it doesn't work that way.


Im just saying you ignore important points thats up to you. *shrug*



Originally posted by Tha C-Master

Pull out these strings of less popular people that have beat Spiderman in a fair 1on1 fight where outside intereference wasn't a factor, and that opponent was statistically the same as Cap, do this and I'll be uber impressed.


I will do no such thing. Im gonna bust my *** doing that so you can fob it all off. The fact of the matter is you said that the reason why Cap does well against Spidey is because of popularity. Taskmaster, Shang Chi and oh yeah Iron Fist as well have given Spiderman trouble and they are far less popular than Cap. You still got the audacity to still bring that up. The point is rubbish basically you're in denial thats why you want more examples.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master

Bullets and lasers are some of the biggest jobbers in comics my friend.


See what I mean.....


Originally posted by Tha C-Master

I'm "coping" out because I'm sooo scared of debating with you guys... right.


Thats not actually what I meant...

Originally posted by Tha C-Master

I didn't actually disagree, I agreed that it could be done in certain situations,


Yeah when under stress....nonsense so thats what keept him alive all this time.


Originally posted by Tha C-Master

but he's not running faster than he throws his shield, sorry.


Well sometimes Spiderman does silly stuff too.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master

How about this, he's PEAK human from now on, go it?


How about this, dont tell me what to do got it?


Originally posted by Tha C-Master

He's once again peak human, and he's obviously going to do crazy things in a comic, since it's well, a comic.


Whatever...

Originally posted by Tha C-Master

Alot actually like taking hits from Hulk and Iron Man.


Did I give you examples of Cap geting hit by Iron man. Doesnt logic indicate that eventhough Iron man was punching him that he was pulling his punches? He wants to hurt Cap not kill him. Did I ever use csans of Cap getting hit by the Hulk as evidence; As far as im concerned if it happens once or twice Cap just got lucky.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master

1. You should really try dodgin bullets one day, it's not so bad because it relies on this next point.

2. There's a difference between dodging and missing on behalf of the marksman. Spiderman dodges, if he would have stayed in that same spot he would have been hit, that is different from the marksman missing.

3. It's a comic and he's a hero, there have been average Joes who've done it as well here and there.


What a load of crap. this is how you dodge bullets in the real world.....you run for cover! This is how peak humans dodge bullets in the MU.

http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=liked5mz.jpg

http://img223.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bdbdbd3kx.jpg

http://img105.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bullets11sx.jpg

Did you see what it says there? Iron fist sidesteps the bullets.

This is the sort of stuff that peak humans do on a regular basis, I did not use the word here and there I said on a regular basis. If you're average Joe where to dodge bullets like that he will die. The may call it peak human but the feats are superhuman.

You cannot learn to dodge bullets like that. Why do you think when people stormed the shoalin temples with guns, the monks got shot the **** up, the same thing happened in the boxer revolution. Maybe you should take a time machine and teach them how to dodge bullets.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master

Again I'm not saying Cap can't DO superhuman feats, only that he's not superhuman, there's a difference.


Im not saying to you that Cap can beat the Hulk or take a full punch from Iron Man, but im sorry he does have a degree of superhumanity.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master

If Spidemran is fighting like a comic and not in this forum to the best of his abilities. Unless again you think a human beats a rhino or elephant, in which there's no more point in debating with you, because you would have proven yourself to be a fanboy.


Hello!!!!! You're problem is this you keep saying that cap is slightly above the level of an Olympic athelete. Are you aware eventhough those people arguing against me realised that peak humans in the MU are tougher than they are in real life, and therefore this should be applied to this forum...are they fanboys? One of them even said that a peak human maybe be able to lift 2 tons.

Of course CA is not on the level of Spiderman but to say he is just slightly above an olympic athlete even when the bio does not say that is downright stupid . Tell me does the bio say that he is slightly above an Olympic athelete...whats that no? You then see him dodging bullets and lasers on a regular basis sometimes using acrobatic skill and you came to the conclusion he is slight above an Olympic athlete....and you're telling me I got a problem?

Furthermore the Celestials have experimented on the human race, eventhough you're average human is not going to kick spiderman about they are all potentialy superhuman. Why the **** do you think Master Mold freaked out, I mean for crying out loud humans in the MU even if they dont become Dr Strange can learn how to have psionic powers. Then you want to compare humans in the real world to the MU????????


Originally posted by Tha C-Master

Done with this, it's a waste of time.


I dont see you comparing Tony Starks intelligence to people in the real world. Ive told you this already if you were going to treat Tony like you're treating Cap then Iron Man should have no armour.


Originally posted by Tha C-Master

No.


Whatever.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master

Spiderman is rather tactical, but then again Cap isn't getting prep time for this match, it's a spontaneous, unheard of match with basic knowledge of each character. All the tactics in the world won't help me if I don't have what it takes physical or otherwise to consistently prove a threat.


Actually he does get prep because in the MU Cap has studied Iron spiderman. No im not saying this will make him win the fight , but my undertsanding is that the Cap in this forum will be the standard Cap in the MU. Sure Spiderman will have basic knowledge but due to the events in the MU Cap will have more. Spiderman's new suit is actually a recent addition but has become standard equipment.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master

And Cap is much weaker than Spiderman everywhere else across the board than Spiderman is in fighting, Spiderman is a 4 in fighting.


Originally posted by Tha C-Master

But the gap was huge, the next level was 900lbs to 25 tons. That's what matters.


Er from what I remember level 3 started at one ton then moved to something like 8 then level 4 started at something like 10 then moved to I think like you said 25. i ahve to admit Cap just scrapes in at level 3 but depending on where he landed in level 3 it may not be a huge difference. For example if he could lift 5 tons ( which he cant) level 4 would be much better but not a massive amount, but it is in this case.

As for his agility and when I mean agility I mean dodging there are no lbs and tons to compare what cap and Spidey do but we can see from the comics that Cap does similar stuff on a lower level, but of course you're going to ignore all this.

Now if you think one level is a big deal what about someone being three levels highier. his fighting skills are so great they act as a modifier on his other abilities.


Originally posted by Tha C-Master

Please, for starters the stronger a muscle is the faster it moves. If SPidemran launched his 30,000 power into a jump he would clear some seroius room. He's so fast that characters have been unable to hit him when he's going all out, multiple or single. Like he would fight in this forum. His reflexes, equilibruim, agility, and speed allow him to do so, he is built for it, like a cheetah is built for speed.



Er no thats not true. People who have big muscles can sometimes have there speed reduced in order to compensate for power. Yeah they can punch hard and lift alot but that does not mean that strength means more speed.. Also there is a technique to punching everyone knows how to punch but in boxing if you dont punch in acertain way it will reduce you're speed regardless of how string you are. Strength does not always equal speed.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master

1. Spiderman is considered the most agile character in Marvel, I assure you Cap will never move better than Spiderman on his best day unless some writer is at fault, cap needs more effort to do half of what Spiderman does physically.

*shrug*

Originally posted by Tha C-Master

2. Agility and speed are NOT the same thing.


Well im sorry in the Marvel RPG the ability to dodge came under Agility and for years they put Cap one level under Spidey.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master

Covered already. Cap isn't 15-20x faster than a human at all, he isn't more agile than DD who (as much as you hate it) was considered Olympic.


Where did you get that his bio? Thats why sometimes people dont use bios for evidence, regardles of wether they are rooting for Cap or not.
Sorry.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master

And precog, range, speed, wall crawling, and stopping power due to velocity and speed.


Already gone over this.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master

Comics are still built around the real world, and by using this you are copping out by saying that Comics shouldn't have a logical comparison in a debate without PIS/CIS. These have forum modifiers, so they have to be potrayed more realistically as such.


I seeee....so when I said Spidey not using stealth mode was PIS I was not being logical? When I said Iron man had to be pulling his punches I was not being logical? When I said that Cap cant beat the Hulk I was not being logical? Im just a big fanboy.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master

All heroes do this, so I miss your point, he just isn't doing it here.


No they do not. Its the martial arts superheroes who have a tendency to be able to hurt stronger oponents

Originally posted by Tha C-Master

No I didn't, I have no problem with Cap doing that, he's a cool character. He just isn't winning because you pasted that. ( I know you think he loses.)

Yes you did! If you want I'll go and hunt it down, of all the bios in all the world you had to pick that one. If you dont anwser any of my questions answer this one. Tony Starks has genuis level intellect if you were to make him like a genuis in the real world would he be able to build his suit?

The whole problem is that even people arguing for Spdierman dont even use you're argument because its rubbish. A more realistic way of arguing is trying to deduce from the bios and the comics what level a superhero at even if it means they are far in excess of what humans can do. For example one person said that the reason why Iron man can do what he does is because that is simply his prescibed power, because if you use you're argument he wont even have any armour. So in other words you have to accept that on this forum humans are alot tougher

If you look at the bio you used it says this...I repeat....

<He is extremely skilled in hand-to-hand combat, sometimes taking on and defeating foes whose strength, size, or superpowers greatly exceed his. <

That can be considered his prescribed powers I dont give a **** about anybody else but the fact of the matter is he is so good at martial arts he can take on people like Spiderman.

I will say this. I will even say that Iron Spiderman wins 10/10 in his suit but im not having Cap being slightly above that an Olympic athelete and im not having that Cap cannot give Iron Spidey problems.

1. His bio says that he is above the level of an Olympic athelete.

C-Master said - He is only slightly eventhough it does not say that in the bio.

2. The comics show him consistenly dodging lasers and bullets.

C-Master said - Bullets and lasers and the biggest jobbers.

3. C-Master then gets a bio which clearly states in black and white that his fighting abilities are good enough to take on and beat some superhumans and is furthermore reinforced by the comics.

C-Master said - I didn't put the bio up (When he did, and still thinks that Cap is slightly above an Olympic athlete when the bio he put up says his skills are good enough to beat superhumans)

4. Cap can Spiderman trouble in the comics;

C- master said - It's because he is popular. I give examples of less popular charcters but then he wants more....

Conclusion anything that you dont like you make some excuse

Originally posted by lando005
ok i've been reading this and i would stay out of your argument if it wasnt for a few things i would like to point out to you


Originally posted by lando005

1. spider-man would NEVER under any condition KILL ANYONE. To even suggest that he would mean's your looseing sight of who the charater is, yes it's debateable that spider-man has the power to kill cap but we all know he would never use it so stop sayin it. He's all about responsiblity we all know this there's no argueing that fact he would NEVER KILL.


Cap would not kill ayone either and is capable of chopping off spidey's head or limbs. Obvously Spiderman is not going to stand still.


Originally posted by lando005

2. Spier-man's speed and durablity are not the same as caps, whole i aree that 100% of true human potential would make captain america a low level superhuman


C-Master are you reading this? Eventhough this person belives that Spiderman will have Cap he knows Cap is not slightly above an Olympic athlete.

Originally posted by lando005

by comparison to the rest of the earthbound mu charaters he's not in the same leauge as spidy in either departments. Spider-man is as durible as he is strong that's just physics his body has to be as durible as it is in order for him to utilize his strenght otherwise when he goes to lift a heavy object like a car or truck he'ld just hurt himself instead. Also spidy's speed is about as fast as you get without being classified a super speeder, i'm not sayin he can outrun speeding vehicles on foot or anything but he would definatly out run cap by a very large margin, he has the speed to back up his reflexes which brings me to my next point. For you to say spider-mans reflexes are slower than caps is just out right ignorant. based purly on reaction time spider-man is one of the fastes in marvel even without the spidersense (granted without it he would be a bit slower to react ) the spidersnes does more than alert him to the danger if it's an imediate threat lest say the rhino chargeing at him at full speed his spidersense would make his body want to move out the way.


Well this is the way I see it. Sure Spiderman is alot stronger than Cap, but in terms of reflexes when they are put into stats Cap is always one level behind. Sure Cap is level 3 in strength but he just scrapes in it at one ton so he is at the bottom level of 3. In terms of agility 5 (dodging, reflexes) if you compare Cap's reflexes and Spiderman's reflexes Cap's is not far off. So I dont think Cap would be on the bottom end of 5


Originally posted by lando005

Peter has stated serveal time in the past that he has had to ignore his spidersense in order to do something else if he hadn't his spidersense and reflexes would have caused him to move out of harms way, in other words going just off instinct spidy's relfexes are almost unmatched,


Yes but he does not go just off instinct. Cap has be shown to have low level pre-cog too.

Originally posted by lando005

and when he's jusing logic he does slow down a bit but he's still far above cap.


Yes he is faster but Cap is better at strategy everybody know that.


Originally posted by lando005

3. The whole pressure point in combat situation is NOT BS. I can vouch for this personally. To say that means that you yourself do not have much combat experiance as a trained fighter i can tell you that that is what you do. Why do you think we spend all that time "training in the dojo" we are embbeding ourselves with mucle memory a highly trainted fighter doesnt even have to be paying attention to what he's doing if he's attacked because he has traned and conditioned himself the way he has his body will react in the way he's been trained, WHAT DO YOU THINK CAP DOES he is a highly trained martial artest it many not always be depicted in every pannel of every comic but every movement in his body is already a highly calculated move which is ment to leadhim into his next move and so on and so on it's called chain fighting it's the very reason why iornman recored all of his movements every blow has a precise target ANY REAL FIGHTER KNOWS THIS you dont just swing away randomly.


Agree

Originally posted by lando005

a you take all of that power that his b ody is capable of and you ad on peter's genuis intellect

He is a genuis at Chemistry not martial arts or strategy

Originally posted by lando005

and it has lead him to his own style of fighting (remember he had no fighing experiance prior to being spider-man) one that is almost impossible to predict makeing him seem even faster


Is he a martial arts expert? He has his own fighting style but he is not a martial arts expert his fighting level is 4 for a reason.

Originally posted by lando005

and to wrap it all up spider-man's body is a high preformance machine designed to react in a instant and move faster, his durablity is proporrtainat to his strenght,


his durability is not in proportion to his strength. his suit maybe be bullet proof, but why the hell does he bother to dodge bullets and knives then?

Originally posted by lando005

( although there have been few people who by observation of his movements are able to read his moves giving them a slight edge in h2h combat with him, thoes people are CAPTAIN AMERICA, daredevil, wolverine, and the green goblin

Ahem!!

Im not even going to respond to your first post, you keep ignoring Cap's Fighting ability, He is one of the top skilled H2H fighters in Marvel and genius Combat strategist and you ignore it all.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I think they will work fine as he's used his abilities in his fighting for years, but fanboys only ignore he holds back.
This is a debating forum, follow my breadcrumbs Gretel.

I've noticed none of the fanboys will, it kills their argument. That or they try to add weapons, which completely KILLS the point. I can go find videos of MA's trying to fight such creatures (hell even a gorilla which is only 5x stronger) and still lose. Why didn't that skill help them.
It is a stupid analogy because a rhino weighs 6000 lbs and doesnt have a human shaped body, and insane durability. so now you are comparing a random MA to cap who is a peak human with More MA knowledge than almost anyone else on Marvel earth. another stupid comparison

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
No they aren't, I've used them myself to withhold a person I was fighting so that I wouldn't have to hurt them worse.

That is what they're for stupid. People use them when going into war. You manage your leverage and you look for the opportunity to fight. There are so very many, but you wouldn't know. So speak for yourself. You look for an opening while covering theirs.
Pressure points are not effective in a fight. Also most people in the military and law enforcement now do not use pressure points, they use joint manipulation techniques and chokes from Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, not pressure points since they are in no way effective. But if someone like Cap did exist in the real world he could use pressure points but for a normal fighter like Spidey he would not have the skills to implement them effectively.


Originally posted by Tha C-Master
If you have a situation where the person is rushing towards you, and you hit them with your palm upwards into the nose... you don't realize how easy it can be to kill a person.

If you really think this is a plausible fight scenario you are a moron, people dont bumrush eachother in a real fight unless that person is retarded. When im making my examples I am considering that both fighters are at least somewhat knowledgeable in fighting.


Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Well thank you for debunking the very foundation of your character for me. It's a point I used to stress back when I joined, that styles are very overrated, and a person who has fought more will beat a person in a dojo. That's why I care about fighting efficiency (that means the person who wins the fight is a better fighter, i.e Spiderman). And not the person who sat in Karate class. Which I really haven't done in about 10 years. I've done some militiary and other things. It's really about the fundamentals. Thank you for seeing this, you've really helped me out.
Overated styles are overated, you take one shitty Karate class and use that to form your whole idea on fighting? The only way to be a better fighter is sparring, Go to a good Muay Thai, Brazilian Jiu jitsu, MMA or Judo school. find a guy smaller and weaker who has been training a coupla years and ask him to spar, you will see that fighting skill isnt worthless.


Originally posted by Tha C-Master
No... it's really not. Most fights are only a few seconds and hits, not what you see in TV and movies.
If both fighters are somewhat skilled a 1 punch KO is rare, KO's mostly happen after combos.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Cap would not kill ayone either and is capable of chopping off spidey's head or limbs. Obvously Spiderman is not going to stand still.


Well this is the way I see it. Sure Spiderman is alot stronger than Cap, but in terms of reflexes when they are put into stats Cap is always one level behind. Sure Cap is level 3 in strength but he just scrapes in it at one ton so he is at the bottom level of 3. In terms of agility 5 (dodging, reflexes) if you compare Cap's reflexes and Spiderman's reflexes Cap's is not far off. So I dont think Cap would be on the bottom end of 5


Yes but he does not go just off instinct. Cap has be shown to have low level pre-cog too.


Yes he is faster but Cap is better at strategy everybody know that.


He is a genuis at Chemistry not martial arts or strategy


Is he a martial arts expert? He has his own fighting style but he is not a martial arts expert his fighting level is 4 for a reason.


his durability is not in proportion to his strength. his suit maybe be bullet proof, but why the hell does he bother to dodge bullets and knives then?




do you really think cap would do that to him or anyone else....really

agreed

never said he did

agreed

agreed but peter is very crafty often coming up with plans on the fly

the same reason why wonderwoman still needs to....surface area apply enough force over a small surface area ie the tip of a blade or a bullet and it will go through that object. peter's skin is highly durable capable of withstanding much blunt force trama over a large area but if you focus that force enough over a tiny area he's just as vunerable as me or you

This just proves my point and is my biggest problem with you, you don't listen, you don't read, and you don't comprehend. You take my post and you misquote it and read it to a degree you're satisified with, I've never seen someone contradict themselves so many times within the same argument, it's absurd. You claim that Spiderman cannot dodge lasers but Cap can? WTF? And the real world shit again, where was I talking about the real world in the terms that you were, I'm talking about getting the characters, PUTTING them in a debate, and judging a theoretical match as realistically as possible, the problem with dealing with superfans is they start little feat wars from their respect thread without using logic and a shred of common sense. I.E, Cap can catch missles. I'm sure once I finish spending a great deal of time with this argument, you'll only misinterpret it and bring the same countered points up again, that EVERYONE has gone over. It's starting to be a waste of my time, in the THIRD thread its been brought up in.


Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah but if you look at his feats alot of them can be considered superhuman Is that my point? NO, pay attention for the last time, all characters do big feats, all feats are part of a character. ALL heroes beat someone tougher than them, noone is saying he can't. They're heroes it's what they do. Your consistent problem is you CONTINUE to neglect what abilities you use and don't use within the forum that has the forum modifiers in them, Cap can do superhuman feats, for the 10,000th time. No matter how much you like it or not, he is PEAK human. The pinnacle of what a human can be.




Originally posted by Alfheim
Did I pull a scan of him catching a missle?
You defended it plenty of times, and don't even lie about it.



Originally posted by Alfheim
Im just saying you ignore important points thats up to you. *shrug*

What point have I ignored? I've been on here more than anyone else thoroghly putting up points. I can disagree with them however I want, but that doesn't mean I ignore them. YOU on the other hand ignore what I've said various times and put what you want up there. You ignore the rules and everything. You CONSTANTLY change your points time and time again with the rest. It went from Cap being uber, to superhuman, to metahuman, to he's peak but....


I don't think so.




Originally posted by Alfheim
I will do no such thing. Im gonna bust my *** doing that so you can fob it all off. Oh, yea I fob it all off. I notice when I ask you questions you don't feel like answering you simply ignore it, and throw the same one up again. You skipped my analogy, you skipped it all.


Originally posted by Alfheim
The fact of the matter is you said that the reason why Cap does well against Spidey is because of popularity.

Nono, I think Cap does WELL against Spiderman in certain situations without his Iron suit, I just don't think he'll be beating him in a match due to the forum rules, which you continue to neglect. Like my example with the other... debator, who kept making stuff up that made no sense.


Originally posted by Alfheim
Taskmaster, Shang Chi and oh yeah Iron Fist as well have given Spiderman trouble and they are far less popular than Cap.

They are all marvel Icons, and each of them possess a Superhuman ability that Cap does not, be it Taskmasters memory, Iron Fists "Iron Fist". Furthermore in a match with such characters (even ones like elecktra) they are going to make the match interesting. Who wants to see Spiderman dodge everything from them, (neglecting the fact that he does it from much faster opponents anyways).

And Spiderman holds back, something else you neglect.

Originally posted by Alfheim
You still got the audacity to still bring that up.

Like your audacity to bring up Cap ataking missles.

Originally posted by Alfheim
The point is rubbish basically you're in denial thats why you want more examples.

The point was solid and hard on, how he can humans with a simple flick holding back... it's inconsistent. Much like your argument.


Originally posted by Alfheim
See what I mean.....

Let me explain something to you since you aren't too fond of logic. Listen well, even in your insane guage of Caps speed being nearly as fast as his shield (along with other's). He's still WAY under the speed limit to consistently dodge well shot bullets. There's a difference between dodging and a marksman missing. Cap can't SEE the bullets, he isn't faster than one, so how else is he dodging machine-gun rate fire? Then getting hit by guys like DD and Punisher. It's inconsisten PIS. (Although he has dodged bullets, the bullets are there to make the scene interesting), they aren't going to have a character die, and all street levelers have done it, even Xavier's done it once or twice lol.



Originally posted by Alfheim
Thats not actually what I meant...

Doesn't matter, sardonic irony is sardonic irony.


Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah when under stress....nonsense so thats what keept him alive all this time.

Since he is lax when he's fighting for his life right?



Originally posted by Alfheim
Well sometimes Spiderman does silly stuff too.

I agree, and I don't try to bring them up. You are confusing me for saying "cap is a bad character and spiderman isn't, he can always win all the time".

My initial premise was to focus on PIS itself.


Originally posted by Alfheim
How about this, dont tell me what to do got it?

How is that telling you what to do?



Originally posted by Alfheim
Whatever...

This is what I mean by ignoring a point, you *shrug* and whatever quite alot don't you?


Originally posted by Alfheim
Did I give you examples of Cap geting hit by Iron man. Doesnt logic indicate that eventhough Iron man was punching him that he was pulling his punches? He wants to hurt Cap not kill him.

Hence the quote "he's killing Cap" go help him.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Did I ever use csans of Cap getting hit by the Hulk as evidence; As far as im concerned if it happens once or twice Cap just got lucky.

I didn't say you did, my point is that he did it, you are arguing for his side, he survived it because Marvel won't kill off a flagship character, that is lucky then huh?

Originally posted by Alfheim
What a load of crap. this is how you dodge bullets in the real world.....you run for cover! This is how peak humans dodge bullets in the MU.

http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=liked5mz.jpg

http://img223.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bdbdbd3kx.jpg

http://img105.imageshack.us/my.php?...bullets11sx.jpg

It all depends on the distance between the person and the shooter and their aim, obviously the closer I am to a person the lesser chance I have of dodging that bullet. I find it funny that humans 40-50 miles an hour will dodge bullets, HERE. Because they won't. I'm arguing the forum here for the last time, and a very skilled marksman with a high rate weapon should have no hard time hitting a large target (ignoring his shield), considering a skilled marksman can nail someone getting away in a vehicle. Is Cap faster than a vehicle? Was he further away? So that makes it: a bit of jobbing, and the fact that characters in the MU are amped up, a point which I made for the 3rd time.

Originally posted by Alfheim
This is the sort of stuff that peak humans do on a regular basis, I did not use the word here and there I said on a regular basis. If you're average Joe where to dodge bullets like that he will die. The may call it peak human but the feats are superhuman.
All been covered above my friend. Comic book and forum rules are different things.

Originally posted by Alfheim
You cannot learn to dodge bullets like that.

There's obvoiusly a limit with that, considering distance and skill like I mentioned earlier.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Why do you think when people stormed the shoalin temples with guns, the monks got shot the **** up, the same thing happened in the boxer revolution. Maybe you should take a time machine and teach them how to dodge bullets. *teehee* by your example many ninjas and whatnot have dodged bullets. The peak humans are the best of what a human can be, not meta, not enhanced. Making them a few times faster tops (an top class runner can hit 30) Faster animals get hit all the time, hell even birds. Come now.


Originally posted by Alfheim
Im not saying to you that Cap can beat the Hulk or take a full punch from Iron Man, but im sorry he does have a degree of superhumanity. In terms of lactic acid he does.


Originally posted by Alfheim
Hello!!!!! You're problem is this you keep saying that cap is slightly above the level of an Olympic athelete. And you've been ignoring in what referene I made that in, that reference was in speed, and strength and basic categories, you keep on mentioning feats. Try to follow my breadcrumbs.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Are you aware eventhough those people arguing against me realised that peak humans in the MU are tougher than they are in real life, and therefore this should be applied to this forum...are they fanboys? I also agreed to this, but my more important point was that forum MU's aren't as impressive as they are in comics.

One of them even said that a peak human maybe be able to lift 2 tons. Wrong, the limit is 800, not a ton, a ton is superhuman strength. Just like running about 50-60 is superhuman speed. I can see going a bit over that, but not double or triple.


Originally posted by Alfheim
Of course CA is not on the level of Spiderman but to say he is just slightly above an olympic athlete even when the bio does not say that is downright stupid . Tell me does the bio say that he is slightly above an Olympic athelete...whats that no? Statistics vs feats. An olympic athlete won't take full punches from Iron man either. It wasn't my point to begin with, my point was actual statistics.


Originally posted by Alfheim
You then see him dodging bullets and lasers on a regular basis sometimes using acrobatic skill and you came to the conclusion he is slight above an Olympic athlete....and you're telling me I got a problem?

But funny how you said that Spiderman couldn't do it, and he's 10x the dodger. A proof of your inconsistency.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Furthermore the Celestials have experimented on the human race, eventhough you're average human is not going to kick spiderman about they are all potentialy superhuman. Never argue potential in an argument ever. I have the potential to jump 300 feet.

And again, ALL humans can do superhuman things when the time calls for it, you aren't telling me anything I don't already know, your point is invalid. They just aren't in the same with their 5% as spiderman is in his.


Originally posted by Alfheim
Why the **** do you think Master Mold freaked out, I mean for crying out loud humans in the MU even if they dont become Dr Strange can learn how to have psionic powers. Then you want to compare humans in the real world to the MU????????
What you don't understand or rather not accept is that there are logical parameters to debating and a "suspension of disbelief" must be attained therefore. If you are going to put a character on here, why debate them without logic? It makes no sense, so you go and pull your strawman "well it's a comic book". My point was in forum sense and aspects anyways, stop being so inconsistant.

Originally posted by Alfheim
I dont see you comparing Tony Starks intelligence to people in the real world. Ive told you this already if you were going to treat Tony like you're treating Cap then Iron Man should have no armour.

Wrong, read above. You'd be surprised what the military can do though.


Originally posted by Alfheim
Actually he does get prep because in the MU Cap has studied Iron spiderman. No im not saying this will make him win the fight , but my undertsanding is that the Cap in this forum will be the standard Cap in the MU. Sure Spiderman will have basic knowledge but due to the events in the MU Cap will have more. Spiderman's new suit is actually a recent addition but has become standard equipment. You are trying to make sense, but prep time is against the rules, like it or not.


Originally posted by Alfheim
Er from what I remember level 3 started at one ton then moved to something like 8 then level 4 started at something like 10 then moved to I think like you said 25. i ahve to admit Cap just scrapes in at level 3 but depending on where he landed in level 3 it may not be a huge difference. For example if he could lift 5 tons ( which he cant) level 4 would be much better but not a massive amount, but it is in this case.
Wrong again. The mark for 3 is peak and stops at 800, Superhuman is that UP to 25, the margin is very large which makes it a bit poor.

Originally posted by Alfheim
As for his agility and when I mean agility I mean dodging there are no lbs and tons to compare what cap and Spidey do but we can see from the comics that Cap does similar stuff on a lower level, but of course you're going to ignore all this.
How am I ignoring anything, Spiderman is pretty much the most agile character in marvel following reed (since reed is infinite due to his body), Cap will have to be brought up to dodge while Spiderman can do it in low gear. There's no logical explanation of why Cap can dodge as well as spiderman, you're just going to say, "but he did it". Which, unfortunately for you isn't good enough.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Now if you think one level is a big deal what about someone being three levels highier. his fighting skills are so great they act as a modifier on his other abilities.
Wrong, fighting skill doesn't affect the pure aspect of strength, but the aspect of power, it doesn't affect the aspect of moving speed, but the aspect of striking time. Why do superfans try and use this as some kind of bonus that's going to majestically make him on the level of Spiderman? If anything being so strong makes fighting harder and you won't rely on it as much anyways.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Er no thats not true. People who have big muscles can sometimes have there speed reduced in order to compensate for power. Yeah they can punch hard and lift alot but that does not mean that strength means more speed.. Also there is a technique to punching everyone knows how to punch but in boxing if you dont punch in acertain way it will reduce you're speed regardless of how string you are. Strength does not always equal speed.
It does in Spidemran's case as he isn't big. But you know that.

I already covered punching tech.


Originally posted by Alfheim
Where did you get that his bio? Thats why sometimes people dont use bios for evidence, regardles of wether they are rooting for Cap or not.
Sorry. I don't use only bios but a mix of the three, and Cap is the pinnacle of what a human can be (that rhymed).



Originally posted by Alfheim
I seeee....so when I said Spidey not using stealth mode was PIS I was not being logical? When I said Iron man had to be pulling his punches I was not being logical? When I said that Cap cant beat the Hulk I was not being logical? Im just a big fanboy. No, but just about everywhere else. You need to use forum modifiers.

Oh and "he's killing Captain"

Where did I ever bring up a point about him beating hulk?


Originally posted by Alfheim
No they do not. Its the martial arts superheroes who have a tendency to be able to hurt stronger oponents

Any 5 year old out there know that heroes overcome overwhelming odds. And Spiderman beat the living shit out of Brock's symbiote, so that's crazy. Most of Spiderman's foes are stronger than him.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yes you did! If you want I'll go and hunt it down, of all the bios in all the world you had to pick that one. If you dont anwser any of my questions answer this one. Tony Starks has genuis level intellect if you were to make him like a genuis in the real world would he be able to build his suit?
1. You're lying, I never said Cap couldn't hurt Parker. Just that his body was dense.

2. Already covered and the comparison isn't parallel at all.


Originally posted by Alfheim
The whole problem is that even people arguing for Spdierman dont even use you're argument because its rubbish. A more realistic way of arguing is trying to deduce from the bios and the comics what level a superhero at even if it means they are far in excess of what humans can do. For example one person said that the reason why Iron man can do what he does is because that is simply his prescibed power, because if you use you're argument he wont even have any armour. So in other words you have to accept that on this forum humans are alot tougher What the hell, that is what I'm doing, I'm taking the characters with their powers, but all logic for comparison applies. You have to use PIS and CIS modifiers in the forum rules though, they exist for a reason.


Originally posted by Alfheim
If you look at the bio you used it says this...I repeat....


Originally posted by Alfheim
<He is extremely skilled in hand-to-hand combat, sometimes taking on and defeating foes whose strength, size, or superpowers greatly exceed his. <
So I can post that Spiderman can beat foes superior to him as well, and that makes him win? There has to be a how with a can.

Originally posted by Alfheim
That can be considered his prescribed powers I dont give a **** about anybody else but the fact of the matter is he is so good at martial arts he can take on people like Spiderman.

Sounds like more wet dreams. Martial arts alone can compensate for soooo much, he can take Spiderman on, he is just less than likely to win in a forum match, this forum match. And that's not a power, that's a description.

He can take on Peter, but not form MA alone... sorry. If he didn't have the serum he'd lose terribly.

Originally posted by Alfheim
I will say this. I will even say that Iron Spiderman wins 10/10 in his suit but im not having Cap being slightly above that an Olympic athelete and im not having that Cap cannot give Iron Spidey problems. Where did I say he couldn't give Spiderman problems? More proof of you not listening.


Originally posted by Alfheim
1. His bio says that he is above the level of an Olympic athelete.

C-Master said - He is only slightly eventhough it does not say that in the bio. Going by bio's and feats when you want to? I'm talking about in terms of statistical ability, thank you, but you're only going to ignore it.


Originally posted by Alfheim
2. The comics show him consistenly dodging lasers and bullets.

C-Master said - Bullets and lasers and the biggest jobbers.

I explained why, maybe you should use the forum modifiers.


Originally posted by Alfheim
3. C-Master then gets a bio which clearly states in black and white that his fighting abilities are good enough to take on and beat some superhumans and is furthermore reinforced by the comics.

C-Master said - I didn't put the bio up (When he did, and still thinks that Cap is slightly above an Olympic athlete when the bio he put up says his skills are good enough to beat superhumans)


Post has nothing to do with an olympic athlete or not. Superhuman is a very vague term... Cap himself is at the foothold of being one, of course he can beat one, he just has to work harder.

You are putting words in my mouth to help your own argument is what you're doing.

As for the Daredevil thing, that was YOU that said Olympic yourself silly, Cap isn't much higher than DD except in strength.

Originally posted by Alfheim
4. Cap can Spiderman trouble in the comics;

C- master said - It's because he is popular. I give examples of less popular charcters but then he wants more....

No, I said he survives his punches without flying because of that. Which was parallel to Iron Man not killing him or hulk, but you simply said, "He was lucky."

Cap can give Spiderman trouble again, so please point out where I said he couldn't?




Originally posted by Alfheim
Conclusion anything that you dont like you make some excuse


Conclusion, anything you can't understand you misinterpret and quote to a point you are satisified with, contradicting yourself. You prove it time and time again.




Originally posted by Alfheim
C-Master are you reading this? Eventhough this person belives that Spiderman will have Cap he knows Cap is not slightly above an Olympic athlete.



Originally posted by Alfheim
Yes but he does not go just off instinct. Cap has be shown to have low level pre-cog too. This is worse than Wolverine being an Empath, and now he can chop off super=dense limbs. Wow, just wow, this takes the cake.

Originally posted by thedude1948
Im not even going to respond to your first post, you keep ignoring Cap's Fighting ability, He is one of the top skilled H2H fighters in Marvel and genius Combat strategist and you ignore it all. I've clearly gone over fighting, because I know more about it than you do, I've ignored nothing, that is your copout for you not countering it.



Originally posted by thedude1948
It is a stupid analogy because a rhino weighs 6000 lbs and doesnt have a human shaped body, and insane durability. so now you are comparing a random MA to cap who is a peak human with More MA knowledge than almost anyone else on Marvel earth. another stupid comparison

I don't think it's the comparison that's stupid. If anything it's giving Spiderman the Ben of the doubt because Spiderman can beat a damned Rhino with little trouble, seeing as he also has webbing and precog. Damn I made that easy for you.

1. The rhino is an easy target as well,

2. The force is about the same.

3. Cap throws punches and kicks like everyone else.

4. Spiderman can climb walls, oh shit!

Can a martial artist beat a gorilla then? Gorillas are alot like humans, but much stronger.

Originally posted by thedude1948
Pressure points are not effective in a fight.

Since you say it it must be true, now explain why.

Originally posted by thedude1948
Also most people in the military and law enforcement now do not use pressure points, they use joint manipulation techniques and chokes from Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, not pressure points since they are in no way effective.


So stupid, I have a fighting book from my military days and it has critical AND nerve points in there and they teach you to learn them, and yes you learn throws and grabs as well, but a pressure point subdues them with less effort, I've used them and beaten a larger opponent several times.

Furthremore my dad is a cop and HE knows them, they teach people them because it's an easier way to subdue larger opponents. Since most fights become grab-fests.


Originally posted by thedude1948
But if someone like Cap did exist in the real world he could use pressure points but for a normal fighter like Spidey he would not have the skills to implement them effectively. Now you are debunking your own argument, sad. It's really not that hard to learn strikes on basic places.

Originally posted by thedude1948
If you really think this is a plausible fight scenario you are a moron, people dont bumrush eachother in a real fight unless that person is retarded. When im making my examples I am considering that both fighters are at least somewhat knowledgeable in fighting.

Yes I'm a moron in all of my fields of study and martial arts study as well. What fights have you been watching, most fights are very short and adrenaline pumped, it's really meant to help you out as you are arguing Spiderman to be less skilled. Most matches turn into grabbing brawls where people hit. You shouldn't run up front but that's my example of how to kill a person. You watch too many movies, and this is the problem with fighting, a person who has sat in classes all day but hasn't actually fought has terrible application. THey can't control their mood and anger, or any of that. So when they fight someone who has street-fought for years and won't use their code of honor, they end up losing. This is why most people cannot fight.


Originally posted by thedude1948
Overated styles are overated, you take one shitty Karate class and use that to form your whole idea on fighting? The only way to be a better fighter is sparring, Go to a good Muay Thai, Brazilian Jiu jitsu, MMA or Judo school. find a guy smaller and weaker who has been training a coupla years and ask him to spar, you will see that fighting skill isnt worthless. On both sides of the same argument again, you are saying it's overrated then it's not. *sigh*



Originally posted by thedude1948
If both fighters are somewhat skilled a 1 punch KO is rare, KO's mostly happen after combos. Someone's been playing too many video games with the combos I do agree that they have to get a good shot in to KO however.

Spider-man wins.

Well said

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Wrong, the limit is 800, not a ton, a ton is superhuman strength. Just like running about 50-60 is superhuman speed. I can see going a bit over that, but not double or triple.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scot_Mendelson

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Well said

Basically, we're saying the same thing, except your posts are much longer.

Ok it seems that we are debating for no reason and maybe we agree on alot of stuff that I did not realise. I dont have time to respond to everything. But I will respond to this point.


Originally posted by Tha C-Master


Like your audacity to bring up Cap ataking missles.


I do not think that current Cap can catch a missle. You do realise I have made this clear? To me I dont care because he cant do that now, also when he did that feat I am not sure how superhuman he was for all I know he could have been 25 - 30. Basically I guess the strength range of ultimate cap and ultimate cap can take on the Hulk. So I dont think it would be impossible for Ultimate Cap to do, if you think it is fine.

As for the analogies are you talking about the one with the Rhino, im sure I replied to that.

As for ignoring points...ok sometimes I do give you a "whatever", but the porblem is that I have probably replied to a similar point and cant be bothered to do it again.

I also suspect that you might be misunderstanding some of the things im saying. I will try to read you're posts in more detail then and reply later.

Originally posted by thedude1948
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scot_Mendelson


Steroids!!! LOL

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I've clearly gone over fighting, because I know more about it than you do, I've ignored nothing, that is your copout for you not countering it.

No we are just going around in circles with it now.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Can a martial artist beat a gorilla then? Gorillas are alot like humans, but much stronger.
A gorilla has an insane tolerance to pain, and durability that is way higher than spiderman.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Since you say it it must be true, now explain why.
If both fighters are somewhat skilled it is just too hard to pull off, Pain also doesnt always stop an opponent, you would be better off using chokes or joint manipulation to incapacitate or disable your opponent. Cap is a Jiu-jitsu and Judo expert, and has shown he can pull off Joint manipulation.



Originally posted by Tha C-Master
So stupid, I have a fighting book from my military days and it has critical AND nerve points in there and they teach you to learn them, and yes you learn throws and grabs as well, but a pressure point subdues them with less effort, I've used them and beaten a larger opponent several times.

Furthremore my dad is a cop and HE knows them, they teach people them because it's an easier way to subdue larger opponents. Since most fights become grab-fests. Joint manipulation and Chokes > Pressure Points. The Military and Law Enforcement know this and that is why more of them are using it.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Now you are debunking your own argument, sad. It's really not that hard to learn strikes on basic places. Spider-Man isnt going to learn how to use it on someone of Caps fight Calibur .

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
You watch too many movies, and this is the problem with fighting, a person who has sat in classes all day but hasn't actually fought has terrible application. THey can't control their mood and anger, or any of that. So when they fight someone who has street-fought for years and won't use their code of honor, they end up losing. This is why most people cannot fight.

Originally posted by Thedude1948
The only way to be a better fighter is sparring, Go to a good Muay Thai, Brazilian Jiu jitsu, MMA or Judo school. find a guy smaller and weaker who has been training a coupla years and ask him to spar, you will see that fighting skill isnt worthless.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
On both sides of the same argument again, you are saying it's overrated then it's not. *sigh*
(full-contact) Sparring or grappling is very useful in building fighting skill. What I was referencing before was Pressure points, no matter how much you practice it in dojo on unresisting opponents, it wont matter in the real world, they could be useful in some situations, but you dont focus on them, Someone like Cap could use it in a specific situation but he isnt going to use it alot since they arent as effective as other techniques.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Someone's been playing too many video games with the combos laughing I do agree that they have to get a good shot in to KO however.
There is this boxer you might have heard of him before his name is Mike Tyson, he used combos to set up the KO (Tyson's Combos were some of the best ever in boxing.), since 1 punch KO's are very hard to do. Combos are used in Muay Thai, boxing, MMA almost all types of combat sports. Not just Tekken or Virtua fighter.

once again i would like to remind eveyone that this is a 3 way fight

Originally posted by lando005
once again i would like to remind eveyone that this is a 3 way fight

Okay in my fight scenario, Spider-Man webs Wolverine up and than Cap knocks him out with the shield leaving Spider-man and Cap left.

there's just too much here to quote and debuke on so i'll just say this joint manipulation and other holds are equally as valueable as pressure points and all of them can be effectivly employed in a fight, cops military forces and mas all know this, there is no one that is more effective than the other proper balance and use of all of them is needed same with fighing styles if someone was to say kung fu is better than maui tai or karate they are bias and sadly mistaken it all depends on the skill level of that fighter, as a fighter myself i take elements of all forms i have studied wether it's from my wrestling military or martial backgrounds they all have strenghts and weaknesses......and spiderman is more durable than a gorilla

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Hell Wolverine admitted Spiderman can break his neck, I guess we can go by that to? Wolverine was most likely effing with Spider-Man since that is impossible. He probably was curious to see if Spidey would try it, testing him and the like.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
That's funny since Spiderman's skeletal and musculstature has been augmented to support his lifting strength, his body is more dense and he has more outside durability than Wolverine or Cap (this means it takes more force to do initial damage to him.)This isn't really true. Wolverine's natural durability has been hieghtened both by his healing factor and by treatments from Weapon X. Spidey's natural durability can't be that great since Jigsaw snapped his arm like it was a dry twig during the "Breakout" storyarc. Jigsaw has no powers, as such even Cap is stronger than him. Jigsaw also didn't use a joint or any Martial Arts bone breaking techniques. He just broke it in the middle of the bone on pure dumb strength. If Jigsaw can do that Cap could. Not saying Cap could win, just that Spidey's enhanced durability does not in any way save him from conventional injury. Both Cap and Wolverine should have the pure punching power neccessary to kill Spider-Man if they so desired.

Originally posted by thedude1948
Okay in my fight scenario, Spider-Man webs Wolverine up and than Cap knocks him out with the shield leaving Spider-man and Cap left. And then Wolverine laughs at Cap for trying to knock him out with a frizbee and cuts himself free.

Originally posted by lando005
there's just too much here to quote and debuke on so i'll just say this joint manipulation and other holds are equally as valueable as pressure points and all of them can be effectivly employed in a fight, cops military forces and mas all know this, there is no one that is more effective than the other proper balance and use of all of them is needed same with fighing styles if someone was to say kung fu is better than maui tai or karate they are bias and sadly mistaken it all depends on the skill level of that fighter, as a fighter myself i take elements of all forms i have studied wether it's from my wrestling military or martial backgrounds they all have strenghts and weaknesses......and spiderman is more durable than a gorilla

I guess we will have to agree to disagree, because I believe that incapacitating an opponent and Disabling someones limbs > pain.I agree not one style is perfect, and combinations of a couple like Muay Thai, Wrestling, and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is better. But I do not believe all styles are equal, there are stronger and weaker styles. In the handbooks both Cap and Spiderman have Durability at 3, that is enhanced. I really dont think Spiderman can take a punch to the face as well as a gorilla can.

Originally posted by thedude1948
I guess we will have to agree to disagree, because I believe that incapacitating an opponent and Disabling someones limbs > pain.I agree not one style is perfect, and combinations of a couple like Muay Thai, Wrestling, and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is better. But I do not believe all styles are equal, there are stronger and weaker styles. In the handbooks both Cap and Spiderman have Durability at 3, that is enhanced. I really dont think Spiderman can take a punch to the face as well as a gorilla can.

let's not make this a spiderman vs a gorilla thing for the sake of stopping another argument i'll agree with you , however where as all styles are ont equal no one style is stronger than another, it's all base on the particular fighter and his experiance level, and knowlege of his/her opponent

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok it seems that we are debating for no reason and maybe we agree on alot of stuff that I did not realise. I dont have time to respond to everything. But I will respond to this point.




I do not think that current Cap can catch a missle. You do realise I have made this clear? To me I dont care because he cant do that now, also when he did that feat I am not sure how superhuman he was for all I know he could have been 25 - 30. Basically I guess the strength range of ultimate cap and ultimate cap can take on the Hulk. So I dont think it would be impossible for Ultimate Cap to do, if you think it is fine.

As for the analogies are you talking about the one with the Rhino, im sure I replied to that.

As for ignoring points...ok sometimes I do give you a "whatever", but the porblem is that I have probably replied to a similar point and cant be bothered to do it again.

I also suspect that you might be misunderstanding some of the things im saying. I will try to read you're posts in more detail then and reply later. That's fine. This really is getting circular. I just want everyone to see everyone elses points, whether or not they agree.

Originally posted by riceroost
Wolverine was most likely effing with Spider-Man since that is impossible. He probably was curious to see if Spidey would try it, testing him and the like.
This isn't really true. Wolverine's natural durability has been hieghtened both by his healing factor and by treatments from Weapon X. Spidey's natural durability can't be that great since Jigsaw snapped his arm like it was a dry twig during the "Breakout" storyarc. Jigsaw has no powers, as such even Cap is stronger than him. Jigsaw also didn't use a joint or any Martial Arts bone breaking techniques. He just broke it in the middle of the bone on pure dumb strength. If Jigsaw can do that Cap could. Not saying Cap could win, just that Spidey's enhanced durability does not in any way save him from conventional injury. Both Cap and Wolverine should have the pure punching power neccessary to kill Spider-Man if they so desired. Wait a second, I mean initial durability, not bone durability, that means that Spiderman has a denser body, and is harder to say... punch... his body would feel tighter if you hit him in the stomach.. However, I don't believe that Cap will beat Spiderman with a punch or Wolverine with a single punch, but vice versa for cap, and in a tied up wolverine ko him, but that's a different discussion.

I'm not using the Wolverine quote as valid evidence.

Originally posted by thedude1948
No we are just going around in circles with it now.


A gorilla has an insane tolerance to pain, and durability that is way higher than spiderman.


If both fighters are somewhat skilled it is just too hard to pull off, Pain also doesnt always stop an opponent, you would be better off using chokes or joint manipulation to incapacitate or disable your opponent. Cap is a Jiu-jitsu and Judo expert, and has shown he can pull off Joint manipulation.



Joint manipulation and Chokes > Pressure Points. The Military and Law Enforcement know this and that is why more of them are using it.

Spider-Man isnt going to learn how to use it on someone of Caps fight Calibur .






(full-contact) Sparring or grappling is very useful in building fighting skill. What I was referencing before was Pressure points, no matter how much you practice it in dojo on unresisting opponents, it wont matter in the real world, they could be useful in some situations, but you dont focus on them, Someone like Cap could use it in a specific situation but he isnt going to use it alot since they arent as effective as other techniques.


There is this boxer you might have heard of him before his name is Mike Tyson, he used combos to set up the KO (Tyson's Combos were some of the best ever in boxing.), since 1 punch KO's are very hard to do. Combos are used in Muay Thai, boxing, MMA almost all types of combat sports. Not just Tekken or Virtua fighter. It's up to you to decide which is effective, but my point is they all have their levels of effectiveness. And you guys are right this is getting way too long and circular. Spiderman is durable as well, seeing as he picks up heavy things and fights guys who hit with tons of force.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Wait a second, I mean initial durability, not bone durability I am not talking about just bone durability. I am talking about the durability of bones, muscles, tendons, etc. Wolverine's natural durability is enhanced in all areas, not just denser bones.

Damn you guys. Spiderman beats the shit out of cap. thats it. deal with it. done. period. over.

go to ownage thread, spiderman beat the shit out of SUPERMAN, he can surely beat the shit out of wolverine and cap.

Originally posted by riceroost
I am not talking about just bone durability. I am talking about the durability of bones, muscles, tendons, etc. Wolverine's natural durability is enhanced in all areas, not just denser bones. I have to disagree, it is characterized taking it at the rate of a human, and even if it wasn't, I wouldn't say that it was on Spidey's.

will it never end

Originally posted by lando005
will it never end No, threads like this will be made time and time again, if you read Wolverine vs Spiderman you'll see that is over 700 pages long.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
No, threads like this will be made time and time again, if you read Wolverine vs Spiderman you'll see that is over 700 pages long. that thread is my baby...

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I have to disagree, it is characterized taking it at the rate of a human, and even if it wasn't, I wouldn't say that it was on Spidey's. I have no clue what you just said.

Originally posted by jinzin
that thread is my baby... That's because you've been owning spidey fanboys for 700+ pages of blood, sweat, and spandex. Makes me proud to be a Wolverine fan.

And I've owned Wolverinefanboys for 100's of pages, though I must admit I don't see Spiderman with the same power I once did, even though he's more powerful.

cap wins. why????

Because he has america on his side, and america has nuclear weapons.

biotch.

Originally posted by King KAM
cap wins. why????

Because he has america on his side, and america has nuclear weapons.

biotch.

That and Wolverine took a nulcear weapon to the face, and fully regenerated from it a few seconds later closedeyes

As well as fighting with Gladiator for six days straight.

Or because of his fanboys...

Originally posted by Jesse7
That and Wolverine took a nulcear weapon to the face, and fully regenerated from it a few seconds later closedeyes

As well as fighting with Gladiator for six days straight. Cap wins damnit, end of thread!

Originally posted by King KAM
Cap wins damnit, end of thread!

KAM you're making Cap fans look bad.....

I just read On Iron Spidey's profile that it's official that he has to pull his punches or he will kill...... well it does say a "normal" person.

Originally posted by Alfheim
KAM you're making Cap fans look bad.....

I just read On Iron Spidey's profile that it's official that he has to pull his punches or he will kill...... well it does say a "normal" person. sadly as much as anyone goes on and on about how spidey must pull his punches, cap has fought with the Hulk, the thing, Terrax, and many other people over class 50.

Spidey cannot decapitate cap, but he can hurt him, but first he would have to hit him...and in their most recent meeting he couldnt even do that.

but i just use actual comics for my evidence, and not book guides....

Originally posted by King KAM
sadly as much as anyone goes on and on about how spidey must pull his punches, cap has fought with the Hulk, the thing, Terrax, and many other people over class 50.

Spidey cannot decapitate cap, but he can hurt him, but first he would have to hit him...and in their most recent meeting he couldnt even do that.

but i just use actual comics for my evidence, and not book guides....

I might decide to talk to the mods about the rules to verify somethings.

Originally posted by King KAM
sadly as much as anyone goes on and on about how spidey must pull his punches, cap has fought with the Hulk, the thing, Terrax, and many other people over class 50.

Spidey cannot decapitate cap, but he can hurt him, but first he would have to hit him...and in their most recent meeting he couldnt even do that.

but i just use actual comics for my evidence, and not book guides.... If you are using those fights for valid evidence and seeing as cap isn't bulletproof you think he won't lose. Then you are being clearly biased. And yes, everyone knows that Spiderman pulls his punches. He has stealth mode too. So using comics as valid evidence all the time is incorrect since they aren't congruent with the rules 100%. I could simply pull examples of Spiderman beating firelord with his bare hands, someone dense enough to survive a black hole, and that would murder cap.

Also while we're on this subject did you guys know that Spiderman ripped Iron Man 2020's armor? With his bare hands because he was pissed off?

Originally posted by Tha C-Master


Also while we're on this subject did you guys know that Spiderman ripped Iron Man 2020's armor? With his bare hands because he was pissed off?

Aww man I had that annual, you do know you're stuff!!! Yeah sure that show Spdiey's potential but to get that power had to be really MAD.

Well the problem with Terrax is that he is super strong and has super reflexes so Cap should not be able to touch him.

People like the Thing and Hulk are very strong but not agile, Cap could only dodge them.

Er...If spiderman can punch out superman, cap is toast. end of thread. goodbye. the end. period. OvEr. If you dont believe me, go to the ownage thread, the pic is posted at least twice.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Aww man I had that annual, you do know you're stuff!!! Yeah sure that show Spdiey's potential but to get that power had to be really MAD. Well it's to the best of their abilities.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well the problem with Terrax is that he is super strong and has super reflexes so Cap should not be able to touch him.
Much like Spiderman.

Originally posted by Alfheim
People like the Thing and Hulk are very strong but not agile, Cap could only dodge them.

Much like Spiderman.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
If you are using those fights for valid evidence and seeing as cap isn't bulletproof you think he won't lose. Then you are being clearly biased. And yes, everyone knows that Spiderman pulls his punches. He has stealth mode too. So using comics as valid evidence all the time is incorrect since they aren't congruent with the rules 100%. I could simply pull examples of Spiderman beating firelord with his bare hands, someone dense enough to survive a black hole, and that would murder cap.

Also while we're on this subject did you guys know that Spiderman ripped Iron Man 2020's armor? With his bare hands because he was pissed off? but the fact of the matter is that with 1 punch Spider-man cant kill captain america, it aint happening, i dont give a shit what logic says, Captain America takes punches from people over class 50 all the time.

And thats the bottom line...because King Kam said so.

Originally posted by King KAM
but the fact of the matter is that with 1 punch Spider-man cant kill captain america, it aint happening, i dont give a shit what logic says, Captain America takes punches from people over class 50 all the time.

And thats the bottom line...because King Kam said so. That's because it's a comic, and Cap won't die. Explain to me how he's logically (remember you need logic in a debate) taking a full hit (or a half hit) from Iron Man, a character who can lift over 20% of a million pounds and move faster than the speed of sound. (That rhymed).

He isn't bulletproof and these characters hit much harder than that.

Took me a while to get here but I made it. I won't focus this into a Cap vs Spider-Man fight, I'll make sure I include Wolverine too. Spider-Man wins. This is the kind of fight where Spider-Man can do well. Facing multiple opponents he can just go with his spider-sense and use his instincts to evade and land punches. Cap has a good shot here to use his mind to his advantage, but I doubt Spider-Man and Wolverine are gonna just sit back and wait for him to come up with a plan. Cap and Wolverine may decide to go after Spider-Man but that wouldn't accomplish anything. Spider-Man could just snap Wolverine's neck (yes he can do it, his neck is like beads on a chain meaning the beads can't be broken but the chain can be severed). As for Cap, Spider-Man has killed an accomplished fighter with one punch so I'm thinking he can at least KO Steve here.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
That's because it's a comic, and Cap won't die. Explain to me how he's logically (remember you need logic in a debate) taking a full hit (or a half hit) from Iron Man, a character who can lift over 20% of a million pounds and move faster than the speed of sound. (That rhymed).

He isn't bulletproof and these characters hit much harder than that. using logic explain to me how and the hell iron man's suit works in the first place...

check, and mate

Originally posted by thedude1948
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scot_Mendelson I'm glad someone brought this up as I'd mentioned the heaviest lifting being 1,000 lbs before. This furthermore proves my point that MA users will use real world grounds when it suits their argument. But then argue against it when it doesn't.

Originally posted by King KAM
using logic explain to me how and the hell iron man's suit works in the first place...

check, and mate The MA fans basic argument, "logic has no place in comics".

Sorry this isn't a comic, but a comic debate, and if you aren't going to use logic, then there's no point of having one. Otherwise people wouldn't complain when guys like Colossus beats Magneto.

Try again. And like I said you'd be surprised to see how far science has brought us.

You know what I was thinking maybe we should find a way of making more accurate rules. Im not sure exactly how it would be done but the idea is to be able to get a rule and tell some one "read it and weep".

Ok I know this is getting circular but if we can find away to define what a person is capable of on this forum because it seems even those on spidey's side have a difference of opinion and criteria of what we should use to define a person's capabilities.

C-Master why dont you in you're own time try to list out what criteria you use to define capabilities. Then we could get another person bang some heads together then talk to the mods.

P.S. When you first said that Spiderman could be really powerful in some circumstances, probably the first example I thought of was the Iron Man of 2020......and I was praying you wouldn't pull it....Spiderman really ***** Iron Man up I thought it was a Superman comic.

if that guy can bench 1000lbs how much can cap really do at max maybe a ton?

Originally posted by ankur29
if that guy can bench 1000lbs how much can cap really do at max maybe a ton?

Probably, he has been depicted as being able to benchpress 1100 with ease. So the absolute maximum would be a ton, but most likely 1500 lbs.