Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

I think we need a place where we can discuss how each character has developed since movie 1.

We need a big picture of it otherwise we probably wont be able to suss out what is going to happen in movie 3.

People seem to think that this whole middle movie was only a "test" for the characters to see what they want most in life and that Liz decided against being a pirate and she wants Will. Jack "wont want her now"..or he's going to go after her but it will end in vain. and that Will was thinking "oh I need to love my lizzie"...I completley disagree with this...People are ignoring what movie 1 showed us when it came to all the characters:

Jack wants love but wont embrace it

Liz wanted to be a pirate since she was a little girl

Will wanted to meet his father..and he also wanted to be bold towards Liz

but did anyone else get the vibe..even during movie 1 that Will never actually earned that?..What did he actually do for Liz in that move except be bold enough to call her Elizabeth and kiss her?

Did he actually earn to be her guy?? I honestly dont think so..he never actually did anything to save her..he was always too late.

With Jacks character..the way I see it..He's a materialistic jerk to start with..but there is a little hint in there of what he actually wants..(love with one person)..by movie 2..he's begining to want it..and he wants Elizabeth but is wary of going after her or not..Why would he actually want to go after her if he knew that she was happy where she was?..anyway by the end of movie 2..we can see that he is beginning to let material objects go and care for a woman..It's still not quite enough to win her heart yet..So how will he win it over at the end??

Also why is jack worried about claiming Liz?..is it because of the fact Will is there? He knows that Will is an honest man..and when something doesnt go their way..they usually end up doing something incredibly stupid.

Is this a hint of what we are going to see happen with Will in movie 3? What is he going to do?



anyway..continue lets chat

COme on katelovespirates, lovethemtigers, vegaofthelyre and everyone

Well, the way I see, it, you're pretty much right. I think the script on paper called for Liz to be the main character since we start with her and it's her adventure. She's the one who is taken by pirates. Jack steals the show of course, but I think they shifted gears to focus on Will.
Will has always wanted to find his father, and the way I always thought of him, his place in the world. While he's not a pirate, one gets the feeling he's not satisfied with his work since he practices with the swords three hours a day and has a shit-for-brains boss. The second movie, he's beginning to form a life for himself, get married and all, but he has to turn pirate again and meet up with Jack. That's when he's really in his element is when he leads the crew to save Jack. He's starting to get quick on his feet and a little cleverer. So I think he's turning pirate too, only more against his will and at a slower pace than Liz because she's always wanted it. I don't think he'll be happy going back to being a blacksmith. It just seems like he doesn't feel challenged doing it.

Yeah I agree with you, Will has not earned anything!

And in my opinion there were a lot of hints given in the first movie to give a hint to Jack/Liz thing.

At the beginning, after he saved her life she said:

- "Do you really intend to kill my rescuer?"
-" Commodore I really must protest! Pirate or not this man saved my life"
- "Oh, yes it was terrifying" (to the maid, but she didn't mean it.
-"But you're Captain Jack Sparrow. Are you the pirate I've read about or not?"
-"This is wrong" (during the hanging scene)

Jack:

-Saved her life
-Saved her life again when Barbossa wanted to shoot her
-Peas in a Pod
- In Tortuga: "If every town is like this one, no man would ever feel unwanted" ( I mean it could mean that he wants to find love, or?)

Will:

- he did something incredible clever: he freed jack from jail
- he brought her out of the cave...wonderful
- and again he helped jack to escape, but what else?


But what I didn't understand why the Governor and Norrington give Jack a start to escape? I mean did they do it for Liz?

Will was actually late to rescue her in that scene..if Barbossa was gonna slit her throat he would have done it..and Will would have been late becuase he did the stupid thing by knocking Jack out.

Willofthewisp

With Will's character..if he becomes more piratey..will this mean that Liz will feel happy with him?

WHat I notice is that he is becoming very selfish..and I think that its going to grow and grow by movie 3..

From Liz's reaction after what she did to Jack on the pearl..it seems as if she doesn't actually like that selfish side of the pirate life..but JACK is actually starting to become a better man.now and he's becoming less selfish.but Will?

He's going in the wrong direction if he wants to keep Liz...

the annoying thing is..will he learn this before the trilogy ends and go back with Liz?

or will he actually do something REALLY BAD to her..and THEN do the right thing by letting her go?

I think being a pirate goes hand in hand with being selfish. To me, while Jack is an excellent pirate, he fits the description of an adventurer who just wants to be his own man rather than someone who finds pleasure in hurting other people. He and Liz are not pirates in that sense of the word. Sometimes they act that way, but they're not that way at heart.
Will....Will needs to find his place in the world, and for a lot of people, that involves a lot of heartbreak and mistake-making. He's going to make a huge mistake in the third one. Whether or not he wins Liz back or not, he's going to do something pretty dangerous and stupid and selfish. After that, if he doesn't turn evil, which I don't think he will, he will know where he fits into the rest of the world.

Yes I agree..There is something about Will with this whole "too good to be true" vibe going on..this is what makes me suspicious about that whole touch of destiny..As I was watching that I thought.."aww Will is going to finally become the hero Liz always dreamed of"..

but now I'm thinkin IS HE?.I thought he already WAS a hero to Liz. Will's character is about to develop and its really overdue..and its going to be like a baloon popping..and its going to make us all jump out of our skins..what was it about his destiny that Tia was so in awe of?.I honestly dont think its a good thing.

and only seconds later in that scene he's like "what vexes all men?" and Tia knowingly says to him "what indeed?" is will going to become so vexed at Liz that he will do something really bad to her? maybe even Kill her..

I have a really strong feeling that he is going to do this to her..

because his love is going to turn into a selfish love..and if Liz shows that she has chosen Jack...he might actually kill her for it.

this is what contradicts the peoples theories on KTTC.com

because they are determined to believe that Liz doesn't love jack.and that Will just thinks she does.....but he is going to have to actually see something with her and Jack if he was really going to hurt her..so I'm guessing Liz does start to love Jack in the story.

no...i don't think so..evilly yes but he'd first kill himself....

Was it you who first introduced killing Liz? Maybe it was me, I don't know, but that would be the worst thing to happen to the series, worse than even Jack dying. Because if Jack dies in the third one (which I don't think he will), everyone will have better memories of him and we'll leave the theater talking about how heroic his death was and how he avenged everyone else, etc. Kill Liz? Jack is going to fall apart. Even if you argue that he's not falling in love with her, she's at least special to him, a close friend. I think her death would take the light out of his eyes, so to speak.
And if Will kills her? Well, I think the audience wouldn't forgive him. All Liz wants is to have more freedom than what a rich, high-class woman had at that period of time. She's still innocent and the heart of the movies, so no one could ever sympathize with Will after that.
If Will does not kill her and someone else does? Well, there goes the motivation for the two surviving characters. Will pretty much defines himself as Liz's lover right now, so I think that would drive him over the edge, and Jack....again, Jack would not be able to get over that. She's his pirate.

GAH!!! Will isn't..i dunno...he WOULD never kill elizabeth....the only destruction eminating from him is self

but has anyone noticed when they are in tias hut, and first tia strokes him through the face and later on...on his hands....but i mean, if he's sooo much in love with liz why didn't he pull his hand away?

No...to me it seems like he's enjoying it!

I agree with you!! I just hope its not him they are gona make out to be the Odysseus character..cuz that would mean Will gives it up to go and save Liz..

I'm wondering if Tia is after Will instead of Jack?

Also I dont think that Liz is going to stay dead lol..

this is where the whole Odyssey aspect of the story comes into it..Jack/Odysseus is going to be offered immortality but I have a feeling he is going to refuse it for Liz..to bring her back

I have a feeling that the only way for a Jack/Liz ending is if they actually show us that Will is not worthy of her..and that Jack is...and Will could redeem himself by leaving Liz with Jack

If anyone dies....

1. Will dies.
This clears up the triangle nice and pretty leaving Jack and Liz free to be with each other. Will probably tangled with the dark side a little and it cost him his life to regain his honor, probably by saving Jack and/or Liz along with his dad. This would suck if he died because he's still a good person and it's not his fault Liz isn't really in love with him. I'll be a little sad to see him go.

2. Jack dies
If Jack dies, it will probably be to save Liz because I don't think he would take a bullet for Will. People will tell tales of his bravery and how good a pirate he was. It will be very sad, but I don't think it will happen. He's Captain Jack Sparrow! Savvy?

3. Liz dies
If Liz dies, most likely someone will kill her to piss off Jack/Will or use her as bait and their plot goes horribly wrong. Her purpose is to indirectly point Will towards his place in the world and to act as Jack's conscience. She represents all women in this series and although clumsy and usually outnumbered, she picks up a lot of skills and becomes more dangerous as the series progresses. Losing her would be a great shock to the rest of the characters because (and I don't mean this to be sexist at all) it is harder for a man to lose a woman than another man.

I'm interested in how they will develop Barbosa now that he's back. He's such a cool villain. Under all that pirate-y attitude and "yars" is a very intelligent, very insightful man. He'll have a new appreciation for just sinking his teeth into that apple. But does he still hate Jack? What does he want? I think the whole point of movie2 was finding out everyone's deepest desire. Where would his compass point?

I think maybe at the beginnig he still hates jack because they'll have a fight scene...but later he gives up his life for jack, but why? maybe because he has noticed the relation between jack and lizzie? or name me a reason why he should give up his life for an enemy?

Originally posted by sailorleo
GAH!!! Will isn't..i dunno...he WOULD never kill elizabeth....the only destruction eminating from him is self

There is a whole theme in movie 3 of "jack never being able to love someone on a long term basis"

He had a thing going with Tia but left her

Will is apparenly arguing with Jack telling him that he is incapable of loving Liz.

He begins to talk to Davy J in the latest movie and they become quite close..So davy is going to start putting more and more Ideas into Will's head about Jack stealing his woman and then leaving her. So he is determined to stop it happening at all costs with Liz.

the audience even think that Jack is incapable too...

But I need to just say..

Just because a person breaks up with someone..does that mean they can never find a soul mate in the future?

and if Jack is "stealing her" then why was she doing everything on her own impulses when it came to Jack?

and if Jack is incapable of wanting and giving love..then WHY was he willing to give up the very ship he sold his own soul to gain...for a girl?

so no one is stealing anyone..they are falling for eachother naturally.

So this is where Will is going to become bad and disliked by the audience I think..if two people are clearly changing infront of your eyes..and they want one another...are you going to pretend to yourself that they aren't right for one another and selfishly try and break them appart so that you can have Liz back to yourself?

I think will is going to start doing this..at first he genuinly believes that Jack "cant love her" (or does he? we all know jack is a good man at heart)..So he tries to remove Jack as soon as he finds him..and he completley tosses Liz's feelings aside when doing this..all he wanted was to gain the pearl to look for his dad..and he wants to remove Jack from Liz (basically hand him over to his death on Sao Feng's ship) despite the fact he thinks she loves him..now THAT is selfish! He's hurting Liz and hurting Jack just so he can get his own way....Liz doesnt love Jack (still at lust stage)..but look at how over the top Will is acting here...god knows what else he would do if he sees that Jack was actually getting close to her..and what if he really does get closer to her later? as in love

I sense that Will is going to become more and more bitter towards the two as the story progresses..and if Jack actually does show that he can love her..and Liz actually shows that she's chosen Jack...then would he be so angry and so selfish in believeing that Jack cant actually love her (all the talks with Davy) that he will tear her away from Jack..and himself.."if I cant have her..YOU cant!"

SELFISH ACT...its HIS turn to do the bad thing..and its actually really overdue with him..

I think its also important to notice..In movie 1..he actually scared Liz and made her cry..because she lied to him about his dad...that was a little darkness in his character right there..I was like WHOAH!

YAY! another thread where we can type up ridiculously long explications of our favorite pirate movies!!

Okay anyway, my thoughts on Jack's character-- he is essentially a trickster, a shapeshifter even, if you want to look at it from an archetypal point of view. We've already kind of discussed about how his "drunken pirate" image is frequently belied by his flashes of clarity and even gravitas. This is why the audience is accepting of the dramatic, apparently contradictory aspects of his character: he's a hero, a coward, he's a lady's man, he's a one-woman man, he's a fool, he's brilliant and so forth. And of course, we love him for that, for keeping us off balance and beguiling us with just that hint of what he's always keeping hidden up his sleeve. Jack's personality allows him fluidity and flexibility but also lacks an integrating element, something that will allow him to pull all those elements together into a whole. He's fractured, in a sense, as LovelyOne has pointed out-- there is an incompleteness to him and hence his occasional fretfulness and "not knowing his own mind." LIZ is the completing puzzle piece as we've talked about-- she is the catalyst to bringing all those parts of him together and making sense of them. Otherwise, Jack will have undergone no real change -- he will remain his trickster, shapeshifter self that he was in the first film but essentially unable to achieve a more holistic identity.

WOW!^^ totally agree vegaofthelyre. And critics were saying "I hope we see a little more depth in his character this time" I WAS too..and I saw it..People cant actually seem to see that he is CHANGING and becoming more likeable because of LIZZIE..they refuse to believe that at he moment though..

Do you actually think its true that the majority of the audience want a Will/Liz thing? So thats what disney are aiming for...?

If thats true then I honestly think that its only because we haven't seen Will do anything yet that makes us mad at him...but my spidey sense is tingling..he's really gonna hurt Liz I think.

another reason is becuase they want Jack to stay the way he is..but he is CHANGING..are they blind or what? So i dont think it would actually bother them if he ends up loving someone in the long run..he already is starting to and people still love his character..I love his character even more now that I have seen him change for the better...

I mean..he started to show that he wants love in his life...and if thats robbed away from him in the end..is that realy a happy ending for him?

"can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need," Mick Jager Philosopher

Originally posted by sailorleo
"can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need," Mick Jager Philosopher

huh?

saying that jack is gonna want something but decide not to?

its not actually a want with jack...Its more that he "needs love"

you missed it completely; however, im just gonna leave it to you to interprete

LOL..i think i kinda get what you mean..It's a song right?..

yes, yes it is... thank goodness somebody noticed

Oh and vegaofthelyre!! With your theory in mind!! then its no coincidence then that the dog/Jack after the credits has a big fat BONE in his mouth instead of the keys he once held so dear..doggie made some changes..doggies gonna get the bone!..Jack will get Liz.

The bone was the temptation of the dog in movie 1...it was the chance to take it from one person and give up his keys to them..but he was'nt ready and he ran away...when the dog was on his own with lots of people he was defiant to change his attitude for people..but when it was one on one? doggie wanted it..

So yes..Jack has made that change in his purgatory..the dog was sitting as a king in his purgatory with that bone.. (skeleton man dancing)

Jack is changing for Liz..nuff said..

heres that last clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2taLxUdzc8

just before the dog got here..he was protecting everyone and letting them get away from the baddies..(jack protected them all from the Kraken) The dog aslo had the keys in his mouth but lost them after he had just abandoned the two on the boat to get taken under...that was the point where Jack realized he wanted to go back to Liz to save her..

he so obviously made himself loose from the chain so that he could kill it for her..despite the fact she just did that to him...It wasnt to go down with honor..he did it to save her..

Hey I know I'm spamming alot with all my posts at the moment..but I'm SO PISSED OFF right now..these people keep telling me that its been confirmed from "insiders" that its a Will/Liz ending..then why the feck is there all this stuff..like the dog and the Sleeping beauty effect..and the key etc..its all too much symbolism to suggest he's gonna change for Liz for it to be a FRIGGIN Will liz ending..I'm sorry but DISNEY?? WHAT THE HELL!?? are you really gonna do that after putting all this symbolism in ur movies?? SERIOUSLY!
what the heckeroo??

all these themes of Jack beginning to change etc for Liz..then all of a sudden revert back to crap?

All the themes of Jack realizing through Liz to be a better man in life and finally be loved by someone??

Thats a much more interesting lesson/ending to be learned in a movie then characters being tempted by something and reverting back to how they were..BS

"now kids don't ever be tempted..stay nice and clean!"

this is a PIRATES MOVIE..its not meant to be clean!!!!

and why did you put that "yo ho yo ho a pirates life for me" hint in your trailer..so Liz WONt be joining jack in a life of piracy? Ok so Liz doesn't want to be a pirate and free after wanting it her ENTIRE LIFE?



friggin roller coaster ride this is!! I would personally lose alot of respect for disney doing this kind of ending..seriously..boring whimper or what?

We need to write to Disney, petition or something.


I like the idea that this is Jack's "deep sleep" for him to think and change. I never thought of those sleeping death stories that way. It is a time that maybe somewhere in their mind, there is something awake and developing while the body sleeps. When you're alone with just you and your mind, it doesn't matter what you're thinking because there is no one else to put a front up for.
That's how I view Jack. He constantly puts up fronts, largely to protect himself. He usually puts up the front of being a half-crazed drunk. Johnny Depp himself has said that Jack has had too much time in the sun, so I think some of the clumsiness could be attributed to a previous experience of heat stroke or heat exhaustion, but I think he's mostly just naturally clumsy (as with all the tripping) along with putting up that front.
He also puts up a front for Will. He is always super confident around Will and while in a way is acting as a mentor for him, he never tells Will the complete truth or seems to care about Will's safety at all, although we know from the first movie, he really does not want to put Will in jeopardy.
He also puts up the front of heartlessness for Liz at first. He made the mistake of acting too long that he just thought of her as a sex object. You could tell he enjoyed her company a lot when they were marooned on the island. I mean, "there'll be no living with her after this." ? He's saying this to himself. He had the hots for her and would like to see more of her, and when he finally gets a lot of quality time with her, he lets this front drop and shows her he is the good man she always thought he was.
So it seems like for certain people and at certain times he sheds his fronts and is completely himself. I'd like to hear more about his pre-pirate days just to get a sense of how he acts when he's just himself. I think he's naturally clumsy, funny, easy-going, but a total genius. His mind is really keen, and maybe there will be a fun prequel showing him when he worked for the EITC and how he used his cleverness there before he decided to be a pirate and truly have freedom.

Posted this on KTTC.com

You even see the "sleeping beauty" element in buffy the vampire slayer

Spike the bad boy gains his soul and awakens to become the right man for Buffy. He's still very mugh the bad boy..but he has changed from vampire to vampire with a soul. Her lust for him turns to love..hint hint

Angel on the other hand appears to be the right man. But is in fact dangerous to be with her. Hint Hint

Riley is a good boy..but he just aint enough.."buff like darkness in her men"

and to start with she actually DENIES herself Spike and leaves him becuase he is still a vampire..she says it cant be love because he wont ever be able to change(only lust)..so what does he do? He gains his soul..the old part of him dies and a new part awakens And buffy falls head over heals for him

someone also said this named Sparrowsawnsong:

woah guys this thread is intense, i am loving it. LovelyOne, Vegaofthelyre, and Willofthewisp, you guys have really deep stuff. i LOVE LOVE LOVE the stuff about Jack being the archetypal trickster, and the deep transformation... made me think of Gandalf in LOTR, just cause i just watched it... and you know he struggles to protect the fellowship but after he dies and comes back, he has gained strength, resolve, and gumption... to the point where he knows who he must protect and what his role will be in the war.

so with Jack, i think this must represent a HUGE transformation, and if it doesnt, disney has made a huge mistake...

however, there is still a possibility that a forward transformation with Jack would lead him to give up Liz for some reason that we wouldn't know at this point.

As far as Will's character, i think he's going to come to the very edge of going completely out of his mind evil... and be pulled back by Jack, or his father. THEN i think he is going to balance that act out with doing something incredibly heroic... whether that would be dying for Liz, or just saving everyone by being super brave. i think he is going to become a lot more independent, if you notice, he seems to always be following/working with Jack or Liz or his father or something... he seldom just does things on his own, he makes his decisions based on someone else. SO i think he is going to get better at ordering people around and acting on his impulses, that sort of thing.

Liz... Liz is interesting, because she's a girl, so she doesn't develop in a straight line, its more of a cycle, ya know? She starts out the film as a cheeky little girl with a vivid imagination, excited though frightened by pirates. When she is originally saved by Jack, she seems shocked that they are actually quite dangerous, but she clearly wanted him to escape... then she goes through this whole process of trading herself for will's freedom, only to realize Norrington (at this point) isnt a pirate and shouldn't be treated like one- she is honest with him, and given freedom.

Would she ever have gotten engaged to Will if he hadn't saved Jack at the end of 1? IMO, NO. She still looked pissed off at him when he came up to her at the hanging... and when he said i love you, she didn't respond. However, after Will acted super-piraty and rebellious and stood up to her father and norri, she decided to try things out with him. Will's line "its right here, between you and Jack", was followed by her saying "as is mine". Does that mean she meant her place was WITH WILL, or AWAY FROM HER FATHER/SOCIETY, WITH A PIRATE? SUPPORTING JACK and FREEDOM?
"So this is where your heart truly lies, then?"
"It is."

This still doesn't really have anything to do with Will. It's a lifestyle choice Liz seems to be making.

No wonder her and Will's wedding didnt work out- she was WEARING A CORSET TO IT.

No wonder her and Will's wedding didnt work out- she was WEARING A CORSET TO IT.


HAHAHAHAHAHA you're funny

lol ditto

I agree with you so much Katelovespirate excellent post!


I have another moment of "awakening" and it comes from a Disney Movie itself.

The Lion King.

Simba is born a good "lion" and he is born to be a brave and fearless king

Jack sparrow once saved 99 slaves in his past...where the heck did that go Jack?

Somewhere along the line something traumatic happens to simba (loses a loved one) And he runs away from his brave and fearless life. He becomes a trickster/rogue

I feel this may echo with Jack..what hurt him so much in the past? Nala tries to make him come back with her, he listens but is afraid to go back he wont go..its only when she comes back that he begins to show care about doing the right thing again however...still in a bit of denial.


Simba gets an awakening moment where he is spiritually altered.

Jack has his spiritual awakening moment (death)

Simba returns home and becomes the king he was born to be...He returns and has a child with Nala

Jack is going to come back..and become what he always was meant to be...all because of Elizabeth in t ..its sightly different because she is the one who sent him into that spiritual awakening(not rafiki lol). And she also made him start to care again before he did

rock on!!!

is there some way to get disney to read all this? you're all so brilliant. i bet we could talk them into it.

there really is no way to contact them, is there. unless someone on this website has Jerry Bruckheimer,or Johnny Depp, or Ted Elliot, or Terry Rossio, or Gore Verbinski's phone number, its not likely that someone from the pirates cast and crew will look here

I honestly think its what they are doing already.

Its actually tia who gave him the awakening moment I think..she set the events up..she wants him to return the champion for her.....So that she can offer him immortality

but thats not in JACK's eyes..the person who gave him it was ELIZABETH (chained him up) and Tia is seriously underestimating that IMO...Jack was probably going to stay on the pearl for Liz anyway so she could be safe..and had Liz not crossed that line with him (became all the more desierable)..Tia's plan may have worked..he would choose immortality when she offered it...but he's going to DENY Immortality once she offers it..and its all becuase of what Liz did to him right there on the pearl.

I dont think Tia knows what Liz "made" him do.

? maybe

you know what..I hope its not Tia/calypso he ends up with..apparently the director has said "Its a bitter sweet ending" for Jack. As in he choses immortality..which is a curse and a blessing

Originally posted by LovelyOne
you know what..I hope its not Tia/calypso he ends up with..apparently the director has said "Its a bitter sweet ending" for Jack. As in he choses immortality..which is a curse and a blessing

where did you get that? no, no, no ... I don' want a stupid end

maybe he gets liz, but loses the pearl or so? I start crying

Originally posted by Jacky Sparrow
where did you get that? no, no, no ... I don' want a stupid end

It was on that Keeptothecode.com forum.

The reason I'm gueesing this is because I think Tia is the one who gave him the awakening moment but Jack doesn't know. (I dont think)

I have a feeling She is trying to make him into a champion so he can be her equal instead of her inferior..she's going to offer him immortality..but will he take it? Or will he go back to Liz?

Odysseus went back to Penelope instead of staying with Calypso..but will Jack?

why shouldn't he want (to go back to liz) ? I mean if he loves her for real!

I dont know

Cuz liz is the one he is falling for not Tia..

now I'm really sad...but is it for sure that the director said it? or is it just a speculation?

i hate that bitter sweet crap. GROSS> thats a flying screamer for Jack marrying will and liz on his ship.

why give JACK the bittersweet ending when people care most about HIM being happy?!?!?! GOSH>

now I'm nearly crying, STOP DISNEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

...but could it not be that just the pearl sinks? I've somewhere read that the run form left to right to stop the sinking of the pearl

so: he loses his first love the pearl....but wins liz ?

Originally posted by Jacky Sparrow
now I'm nearly crying, STOP DISNEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

...but could it not be that just the pearl sinks? I've somewhere read that the run form left to right to stop the sinking of the pearl

so: he loses his first love the pearl....but wins liz ?


No no no... its a RUMOR, guys. we dont KNOW anything yet. its all too likely he will lose liz but get the pearl.

IMO jack wont lose the pearl.

maybe both liz and jack have to choose between their first loves (will and the pearl) and their new loves (each other).

alright then...I could still hope to get my end

I've an idea: can't they make to different ends...so everyone could have his ending

AHHH! Guys!! which "rumors" are real and which ones are just speculation?? My head's going to explode!! hehe

mine too....

i wish i knew where all these were coming from... ahhhhhh....

But I think -and it's not easy for me - that Disney will make an ending...so that if they want to shoot POTC 4, that it's probably without will/liz, or?

ahhh...everything is making me angry! I mean why do they use all the stuff between jack and liz, when it's just a short episode?

but if they dont' want to earn enough money they should make their stupid ending! I'm not going to see a stupid ending for more than one time.

Bittersweet ending for Jack? I hate all these cryptic phrases. Tell us everything or tell us nothing and say "you'll just have to watch the movie." I'm sick of being baited along. But I still want more.
Well, bittersweet could be really satisfying for us. Maybe that means Jack and Liz will come to their senses and admit they love each other, but for whatever reason, can't be together. That would be very sad, but it would also give them something to wait for. It would be like the ending in Gone With the Wind. We all know Scarlett gets Rhett back, and she's a better woman at the end of it.
Or maybe he dies for her. Or her for him. I'd hate to think that, but I am not sure Calypso would offer Jack immortality. She may rescue him, but I don't think she's in love with him. From my observations, her heart doesn't belong to anyone.

thats very true willofthewisp

So, wikipedia underlines, that the characters are developing:

"During this final battle, Jack and Elizabeth's contrasting character traits emerge: Jack shows heroism and loyalty by saving his crew; Elizabeth becomes more pirate-like when she abandons her sense of duty and honor and sacrifices Jack to protect herself and the others."

And in my opinion it underlines, that they're peas in a pod and will end up together.

First of all, I think it is still WAY to eary to even SPECULATE what is going to happen, there is still alot of changes that are going to be made to the script, between now, and the end of the November.

Originally posted by Jacky Sparrow
So, wikipedia underlines, that the characters are developing:

"During this final battle, Jack and Elizabeth's contrasting character traits emerge: Jack shows heroism and loyalty by saving his crew; Elizabeth becomes more pirate-like when she abandons her sense of duty and honor and sacrifices Jack to protect herself and the others."

And in my opinion it underlines, that they're peas in a pod and will end up together.

I honestly dont think that it was just about saving the others..like everyone thinks..thats not really selfish..if its to save the others its doing the wrong thing for the more noble cause..its not selfish..the selfish thing is removing him becuase you are tempted...and you dont want that temptation there any more.

Here's a question... whats going on with Barbossa?

I mean... we all LOVE him as a villian, he's brilliant... and he is actually extremely likable as a character...

but he has been Jack's enemy...

so whats going to happen? I have heard rumors about him saving Jack, etc...

so is he going to end bad or good?

In what Kate found for the trailer, and I hope they keep this, is Barbosa kind of taunts Jack and says something like "Who would have thought you would have such a weakness." I think this can only mean Liz, so it might be Barbosa that turns on them instead of Tia and "kills" or does something to Liz so Jack can save her.

yeah! thats great! i never would of thought that! i bet Barbossa tries to capture her or sumthin and jack comes to save ehr and then he tries to kill Jack again or sumthin like that

ayeee my old thread dragged to the surface again.


I actually now think that Elizabeths lust will not be there at all in movie 3.


Also I'm scrapping my will turns evil thingamy bob..but he does turn darker..

Also my whole Tia trying to make Jack a champion thing is scrapped!



OOh vegaofthelyre where art thou! We need you, ya lil branbox! I miss her awesome posts

OH MY GOD! reading that again just made me realize something about Elizabeth too.

BUt then whats the transformation for Elizabeth?
Jack died for her, Im not saying Elizabeth should but she could sacrifice herself to save Jack. I think the only character death is Will, he wouldnt kill Elizabeth.

But Elizabeth has to go through something very dramatic in order for her to stop denying her feelings. I know the development with Will and Jack already has in the 2nd. But what about Liz?

I know!! I think she's gonna sacrifice herself to save Will and here she will make the choice to return to Jack...

It happened about 5 times in DMC the main one being the end..

she gives up being with Jack to be with Will even though she wants Jack the most in the world..then when she's with Will she realises just how MUCH she wants Jack..everything turns back to Jack with her all the time when she's with Will...she gives up the happy ending with will to return to Jack in DMC

She will return and go running back to Jack after she has "died" I bet.

Its going to be her major psychological shift me thinks.

So shes trying to force herself to stay with Will because its only fair. I dont think so, because shes playing with both of their feelings. Its better to come clean and be honest to say to Will I love Jack instead of pretending that she wants Will. And leaving Jack like on hold.

If you're right about liz sacrificing to Will as in like forcing herself to stay with Will, then thats when it hits her that its really Jack whom she wants.

Is it possible for the other way around? Liz sacrificing to Jack? Then Wil realising that Liz really wants this man, therefore turning Will in a much darker situation?This is the development in character that I believe we will see in Will and in Liz. DMC already has done its job with Jack.

I'm saying its a repeating pattern with her..she wants to save Will the most in the world so she does but when she's with Will there is an obvious emptiness that can only be filled by the man she wants most in the world...The situation then turns back to Jack. which is what we see at the end of DMC and we see it about 4 times before the end of DMC too.

she seems to realise a bit late every time

Its going to be the moment where she finally realises that she only loves Will in like a motherly way IMO..she protects him like he's her son but Will is going to want to be a man and he wont want Liz to keep doing this for him I think.

Originally posted by Chiki Mina
So shes trying to force herself to stay with Will because its only fair. I dont think so, because shes playing with both of their feelings. Its better to come clean and be honest to say to Will I love Jack instead of pretending that she wants Will. And leaving Jack like on hold.

wait let me rephrase that. I think you're right about Liz forcing herself to stay with will, LovelyOne. Im just saying as an opinion that Liz should not do that bc it would be playing both of these mens feelings. Shes acting as if she wants Will, and having Jack like on hold.

She wil, eventually, come to realize that she cannot force her heart to stay with WIll and forget about Jack. ITs Heart vs. Brain. She needs to have a little balnce between her heart and brain. She loves Jack-shes in love with him(heart) and it would be stupid not to stay with the man whom she loves and forces herself to stay with Will(brain)

Hi Girls,

Well you know what I was thinking? It sounds stupid but I'll go ahead. I think Jack is going to be the first to find out about Will's fate. I think he is gonna make Liz go back to Will. So she can marry him and find a way to stop him from his fate. I think Liz is not going to be aware about what Will will try to do. Well I don't know if she does or not, Lovelyone does Liz knows about Will? that he is gonna stab the heart or no? Because it would make sense a spoiler that Lovelyone posted, that said that Jack realises that it wasn't meant to be. I mean maybe Jack is gonna be the one that makes the decision in order to stop Will.

Back to what someone said, Liz doesn't want to save Will most in the world, although she does love him in her own way and is very protective of him. The movie makes it very clear that she wants Jack. Maybe that's more selfish, maybe it's not. But I think she will try to force herself to love Will even more than she's already trying to.

I think she wants to save Will the most in the world and thats about it..she loves him but she's more of a protective mother towards him..because once she had found the means to save him the compass pointed back at Jack the man. Not Will the man..will was off N/E(behind the blockage in the scene) on Davy's ship..the compass pointed S/W towards Jack...Will was there, present in the scene..and that compass did not point there

remember it doesn't point to Jack for lust.(my interpretation of Ted's waffle analogy)

Originally posted by LovelyOne
I think she wants to save Will the most in the world and thats about it..she loves him but she's more of a protective mother towards him..because once she had found the means to save him the compass pointed back at Jack the man. Not Will the man..will was off N/E(behind the blockage in the scene) on Davy's ship..the compass pointed S/W towards Jack...Will was there, present in the scene..and that compass did not point there

remember it doesn't point to Jack for lust.(my interpretation of Ted's waffle analogy)


YES YES YES... i think we're onto something big.

Remember in 1? When they first find Will? Listen to what Governor Swann says to Elizabeth:

"I want you to look after the boy. He'll be in your charge."

IMO, Elizabeth subconsciously took this command much more seriously than expected... and she is still trying to save/protect/ watch over him (like her line "I'm watching over you, Will" even though her heart has moved into a different direction.

AND ALSO sorry forgot to say above.... Will's mother had just died. Suddenly he had no mother, and then he wakes up (think about the idea of imprinting) and the first thing he sees is someone who says "I'm watching over you."

Elizabeth, whose mother probably died way earlier, is used to "mothering" her somewhat eccentric father. so she naturally takes a mothering role, while Will naturally takes the role of needing that, ya know?

OMG kate thats so true! Great find there. I totally forgot about those lines.

this kind of behaviour will probably push Will away. she clings too tight to him I think..she is his superior and it will make him want to leave her all the more..He will go into active longing for something else.

It really reminds me of Tia/Jack

I've now started to think that it is not Will mirroring Davy/Calypso He's mirroring Jack/Tia's past relationship..

Where as Jack is slightly mirroring Davy/Calypso dont ya think?

Again I'm gonna come back to Teds Waffle analogy here. Skip the part about the compass pointing to him not for lust but because ther is something deeper there..but to the last point he makes:



I find it interesting because Elizabeth is "STARVING" Will is there and she thinks she can return to him. She's perfectly fine with the thought of going back with him.

She was tempted to "taste Jack" but never got to the first time

The end..she actually ATE the waffle before eating the meal

Now what usually happens when a person eats the pudding before the meal? they SPOIL the meal for themselves dont they?

had she not eaten Jack then AWE may have ended totally different.

The waffle tastes much better than the meal..you eat that first the meals not gonna taste as good to you as you once thought it would.

I'm not talking about kissing someone..I'm talking about how the kiss made her feel (and yes its sexual as the kraken suggests moments later.) Where as Will's kiss lacked that...she didnt even kiss him he kissed her.

OOO so its like desert/cake

If you eat the chocolate first, it will spoil the feast/dinner.

Jack/chocolate
Will/feast

So if Liz tasted Jack in the first movie then it would have definitely spoiled the movie and the second wouldve been very different.

DMC would probably ended with Will, so it wouldnt make much sense.

lol ^^

she's been with will..but she hasn't actually eaten the meal yet (felt sexual)

then she cant have that meal

everything about that kiss with Jack suggested she had just awoken sexually..and it was BEFORE anything happened with dear William.

She's now spoiled the meal for herself because of what that Kiss with Jack did to her

Will cant compare to Jack in that way I can guarantee it..the meal cant compare with the dessert if you eat the dessert (most delicious thing) first.

That kissWill gave her was the usual, non tasty kiss..she hadnt eaten the meal there..she didnt react as if she enjoyed that kiss all that much.

she's just stuffed her face full of Jack and the meal is not appetising anymore lmao.

OO OO I GET IT NOW loool Scratch my recent post that was retarded.

Liz got the chocolate/jack. And it spoiled the feast/Will.

Now she dont want the feast. She wants to come back for the chocolate.

LMAO, You know that actually happened to me today. I baked a strawberry short cake today and I decided to have a big piece before dinner. Afterwards when I started eating my dinner I was so full, that I felt like throwing up. It's funny how we can relate everything that happens in our daily life with the freaking movie.

umm..I actually just see this as Elizabeth not wanting to be sexual anymore..she's STUFFED..so we wont see it towards Jack in movie 3 and we wont see it with Will either...she stuffed her mouth and she's quite full and sexually satisfied at the moment..now she's gonna shift to someone who is rather..whats the word..modest? and not sexually forward I think.

..IMO having been sexually satisfied with Will before meeting Jack again would have been the one thing that could save Will/Liz..but it cant..all she has of him now is a mothers love..along with a few feelings of puppy love.

Originally posted by Mistypirate
LMAO, You know that actually happened to me today. I baked a strawberry short cake today and I decided to have a big piece before dinner. Afterwards when I started eating my dinner I was so full, that I felt like throwing up. It's funny how we can relate everything that happens in our daily life with the freaking movie.

LMAO I know. And to think that the movie is based by an old silly disney ride lol.

LMAO^^

I remember reading what vegaofthelyre said in this thread about shape shifters in movies. Jack being one etc. I never got what it meant until recently.

Shapeshifter meaning as his character changing?

This idea about Liz taking on more of a motherly role towards Will is really interesting, especially when you examine it the other way. Does Will look at Liz as a mother figure? On the surface, I think a lot of people would say no because he's equally protective of her and always wants to be her hero, but it's like the classic, "Mom, Mom, look at me! You're not looking!" He needs her approval and (for lack of a better word) worship. He needs to know that she has 100% faith in him and approves of what he does. So I think he does take on a son role a lot of the time.
What's especially strange is in the first one, Jack kind of became an anti-father figure for Will. Will finally had a mentor and someone to show him how things worked, even though neither wanted to be in those roles. So the trio is a little twisted in that the couple, or couple-to-be, Liz and Jack, both view Will as more of a responsibility and child than an actual peer.

we see many of these things happen in that last scene on the pearl^ Not all but many of them. (again this is taken from that 12 step journey of a hero (Volger/Campbell's books)

1. Jack has slain the dragon because he came back for something

2. That something is now his reward (Elizabeth)

3. From this kiss he gains knowledge of how to reconcile with hostile forces, he knows that fighting them is 1 million times easier when you do it for someone you love. It gives you strength to be brave in times of danger. Which is what he will need in the new world or he will "perish" as said by Beckett. (step 10 he's gonna NEED this) We see him face the hell up to the Kraken like a crazy/brave mo fo...very confident in the face of danger. This has now solidified that knowledge into his brain.

4. Jack is reconciled with a woman, we saw the love scene..AND we see a sacred Marriage believe it or not. Where she chains him to the ship "MAKING" him treat HER like an obligation. Making him stay for her so she can be safe. He is literally TIED down by her and he is pretty OK with it I would say

5. Onto the shape shifter. Elizabeth IS a shape shifter to Jack she has been since movie 1..She's gonna keep shape shifting we SEE her shape shift in that Pearl scene when she leaves..yet because he now HAS, hes decided to make her an obligation in his life..he;s faced up to what he feared and he understands the female now. So we are probably gonna see another shape shift from Elizabeth in movie 3. She's not gonna be sexually forward and overly mature..she's gonna probably resemble a good little virgin..and Jack is going to be prepared to treat her right. He'll know what to do and how to behave. He's now reconciled with the opposite sex. He fully understands her

now when it comes to ELIZABETH..she is still MILES behind Jack. Jack is a shape shifter to her too and she cant understand him so she's frigging terrified. He shifts almost every second and she has not reconciled herself with him yet..she has no real understanding of him just yet IMO...she thinks she does and it gets turned round on her head. for example she has a mounted faith in him then it turns round on her head..she then thinks he's a coward and he shifts again and comes back..this scared her beyond belief Jack also shifts and appears to change age constantly..somethimes he is very mature arond her..other times he acts like a child. She has the POTENTIAL to bring everything about Jack together and understand him perfectly and be reconciled with him..but its gonna take a while to happen.

We will probably see a similar scene with her and Jack much later on towards the end of AWE.

woah great thoughts everyone. wow wow wow.

willo, awesome. jack and liz as mom and dad! love it!!!!


and as far as the feeling full from the waffle.... its perfect. cause:

1. liz is skinny and needs to put on some weight. dessert is the best way to do that.

2. Lovelyone, You mentioned she had been awoken physically. i think this line of development is extremely important, because it carries through her character developement.

in one, Elizabeth is still very innocent and naive. You can see this in her interaction with all the guys in her life. all the touching is innocent- nothing sexual at all.

we see Elizabeth at the beginning of 2, obviously ready to wake up physically, but she hasnt yet. You can see that in her interaction with Will--- its still awkward, forced, and not returned.

but she is clearly on the verge, and wanting, to be woken up. "if it werent for these bars..." (not to mention the implied symbolic bars in their relationship, of difference of personality, etc).

Jack is the one who wakes her up, pure and simple.

Thats huge. Thats incredibly meaningful. Once you have been awoken physically by someone, as your first time stepping into the world of sexual desire, you are always going to have this place in your soul for that person, IMO. i dont mean sex, i mean the first person you realize you want physically... ya know what im trying to say?

After experiencing the passion, the overwhelming physical release of that kiss, can she really be satisfied with Will's tame kisses? no way. never.

unless Will turns into a badass who will grab her and kiss the hell out of her, that ship is sunk.

You actually put up an interesting point there Willo. It's true Jack and Liz both view Will as a responsibility. They both want to guard and protect him.

OMGSH LovelyOne, that was the most beautiful, perfect and profound sum=up of their relationship EVER>>>>>>>

Yeah, I don't really know what that means except for the fact that it proves both Jack and Liz for all their faults are caring people who have soft spots for others. Not that I'm suggesting they adopt Will or anything. He's kind of hit the teen years, metaphorically speaking, in that he doesn't want to listen or be controlled by either of them. And meeting his real dad makes him even more independent of them. Notice how short he is with Liz a lot of the time. That's come a long way from "Ms. Swann" and he's even more impatient with Jack.

Good one, Lovely and Kate you guys always bring in some really Kick ass theories. Which make a hell lot of sense. I can see why other people :cough: kttc try to bash your theories. But they always end up getting smacked in the face.

Holy crap...kick ass theories. I feel small lol.

My brain is now the size of a chihuahua's poop.

Lol thanks kate misty chiki..awsome points made by you gys too Will, Kate everyone LD

This shape shifting thing is the single most important thing to notice I think..See she's crossed the first threshold by the end of DMC which is to get Jack back which is an acceptance of him in her life BUT she has still not reconciled with him..and whats worse he has just shape shifted again.

He;s come back significantly different towards women primarily her. And Its just gonna confuse her more.

I think the moment where she reconciles herself will be the moment like the one at the end of DMC. It should be the point where she realises she has reconciled herself with Jack. IMO its going to be after she's done somethign stupid again to save Will. Jack may show something that she now UNDERSTANTS when it comes to his emotions towards her.

Or it will be the emotional battle of giving up something old and familiar for something new and scary/exciting which is what Jack does in DMC..and Will come to think of it in AWE

Originally posted by Chiki Mina
Holy crap...kick ass theories. I feel small lol.

My brain is now the size of a chihuahua's poop.


Don't get me wrong, you to bring in some really good kick ass theories as well. I mean everyone here does. That is why I like you guys so much. You really are intelligent and awesome people.

Its the Ordinary World Vs the special world for all 3 characters thats what the emotional battles are all about in their heads

the Ordinary world is the thing they appear to be most comfortable with

the Special World is the thing they are fearing

they all deny the call to the special world at first

they then all accept it and cross that first threshold of fear.

yet thats not the end of it, they still have tests, allies, problems to overcome before they can reconsile themselves with the enemy, the father, the woman, the man

and the end of the story the hero NEVER returns to the ordinary world without what they significantly battled to gain from the special world (step 9)

which is what makes me think this ending where Jack/Liz end up exactly the same and apart as they were to start with is a load of BS(pardom me)..no decent story does that..EVER

the hero NEVER returns to the ordinary world exactly the same kind of person they were before they set out on adventure.. They return with knowledge or with an elixir (or both) from the special world which they battlled to gain and its what they GET in step 9. Jack fought his own mind to gain Elizabeth, he fought the kraken for her. He frigging deserves to return home with her

So Jack should have Elizabeth by the end of it. I'm convinced there..I'm also convinced that Liz will have Jack

Elizabeth only JUST crosses that first threshild before movie 2 closes..only just

This Shapeshifter thing is still a little dizzy to me.

A shapeshifer is a person who cahnges throught situations. And its an internal change like emotions, character etc etc.

So this person faces some challenges in his path, that would force him to change and confront to that challenge.

I dont want to go on untill Im sure Im right lol..am I? lol

They Have to or Else!!!!

Definitely, they would definitely have each other by the end of AWE. It makes perfect sense. But if for some reason they can't be together physically. They will definitely be together emotionally. They will always have each other in their hearts and souls. But let's all hope this doesn't happen. So they can be together.

Originally posted by Chiki Mina
This Shapeshifter thing is still a little dizzy to me.

A shapeshifer is a person who cahnges throught situations. And its an internal change like emotions, character etc etc.

So this person faces some challenges in his path, that would force him to change and confront to that challenge.

I dont want to go on untill Im sure Im right lol..am I? lol

they just shift in the eyes of the heroine or hero..the shape shifter is usually the woman they want most or the man they want most..they continully appear to shift in character, appearence, age and maturity it confuses the hero..and usually by step 9 they understand everything about the shape shifter and it all makes complete sense to them...they are at balance with them.

Ok now I get it. I was still a bit confused about it as well.

oooooooooooooo.........

So liz changes in character for jack----either Im asleep or retarded.

here's some wikipedia info on shapeshifting that quite goes along with your theory:

ballads, as in Child Ballad #44, The Twa Magicians or Farmer Weathersky, a magical chase occurs where the pursued endlessly takes on forms in an effort to shake off the pursuer, and the pursuer answers with other shape-shifting, as, a dove is answered with a hawk, and a hare with a greyhound. The pursued may finally succeed in escape or the pursuer in capturing. In Dapplegrim, this was set as a challenge; if the youth found the transformed princess twice, and hid from her twice, they would marry.

Fantasy transformation fiction is often mystical or dynamic, focusing on the change of the person's identity when transformed. This may be an analogy for learning to take a different perspective.

So again..Its when a character changes emotionaly, mentally, and physically. right?

That was what I really understood about it.

I just want it to get to the point lool its 11:44pm in puerto rico i cant think straight right now lol

Buenas Noches!! XOXO KEEP THE FAITH!!

Buenas Noches Chiki!

i think by shapeshifting, its more of a changing appearance LovelyOne means. (i could be wrong)

As in, When Jack looks at Elizabeth, he is confounded by her because she appears to be so many people.

Sometimes she is responding to his flirtation, and coming back strong (curiosity scene)

Sometimes she is angry at him for no reason

Sometimes she appears to be an incredibly innocent, naive girl

sometimes she appears to be an incredibly clever, manipulative, accomplished pirate

So Jack never knows who he is going to see when he looks at her or interacts with her... that type of thing. he keeps finding new aspects of her.

shapeshifting is her way of dodging Jack's interest in her. By keeping him guessing, she hopes to divert his attention and not allow him to pin her down. If Jack were able to get a good, clear look at her as she really is, completely vulnerable, she is afraid it would be too intimate of a feeling to escape from. So she keeps him guessing, keeps him off balance by varying her reactions and the way she treats him and all. does this make any sense?

the same holds true for Jack... he definately does the same with her.

Except of course they will finally be able to see one another clearly, thats been foreshadowed from the moment Jack ripped off that corset and Liz burned his rum.

Ok It's kind off like having multiple personalities in order to attract some one or something?

yes kate thats exactly it..

they change all the time..and its only after the hero gains the reward (reconcile with the opposite sex) that they understand them inside and out..Jack now knows her better thanshe knows hersef..she's probably gonna feel slightly intimidated too.

Same goes for the way Liz views Jack in the movie..

1 moment she trusts him and it gets turned on her head

the next moment she is convinced he's left her then he comes back

it explains her reaction to him coming back...she's just confused as fook..she's scared etc etc

now to break down this step and what we see with PotC DMC

1. We find out that Jack has run away..now am I the only one here who felt Jack had basically DIED on us here?..It was well and truly his black moment. Proper death is NOT the black moment so him being eaten wasn't what you would think it is. As it says we have to see the hero come BACK from the dead the same scene oherwise it doesnt have the same effect does it? We all know Jack is coming back in AWE..but I had my doubts when he was running away from the Pearl at the end.

2. what do we see ay? Jack comes BACK and is reborn again..He reaches apotheosis (raise to the rank of a god) hence the godlike shot which is usually what happens during the supreme ordeal. He has died on us and is now reborn. To me that was the biggest relief whilst watching DMC..Knowing that coward, weakling Jack is well and truly dead. Jack is officially BACK and ready to kick some kraken ass.

I'm expecting a mock death and rebirth of Jack in AWE..I think its when he fights DAVY

thats usually the "resurrection" moment..step 11.