Can Satan be Forgiven?

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mattrab
According to christian theology, God is an all-loving God? So therefore can he forgive Satan, and can Satan still have a place in Heaven?

lil bitchiness
I am not sure how the Christian theology works, absolutely, but I assume Satan doesn't want to be forgiven.

Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven.

Im presuming thats true for all other religion - although I could be wrong.

debbiejo
Satan should be able to be forgiven if he asks forgiveness according to all gods creations (people) asking, but Satan might be considered different because he was never human but an angel. Never the less, angels have free will just as humans and IMO be forgiven for transgressions. The Bible says there is NO sin that cannot be forgiven.

Alliance
Well, if "God" is all powerful and all knowing... that means he was responsible for satan, which means that he will clearly not "forgive" Satan. Why? Because God wanted an opposing force (Satan would basically be a straw man argument) and God has Satan exactly where he want him.

debbiejo
Well god can't forgive Satan, it would ruin the whole story.

mattrab
story?

Alliance
Christianity.

WrathfulDwarf
Forgiven for what? His own nature? That's really complicated if you think about it.

debbiejo
laughing out loud

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Alliance
Well, if "God" is all powerful and all knowing... that means he was responsible for satan, which means that he will clearly not "forgive" Satan. Why? Because God wanted an opposing force (Satan would basically be a straw man argument) and God has Satan exactly where he want him.

That would be logical.

I think as far as this whole satan/god thing is, people can't have it both ways. If there is a god which all good, then there has to be an equal opposing force which is all evil - devil. Not made by God, or cursed by God, but sort of independent of his creation.

Kind of like, one cannot be without the other.

But to implement the whole ''god made satan'' is a bit illogical, in my opinon.

Bardock42
I don't get this logic, why would there have to be an equal opposing force. If God created everything like he wanted it and we assume (for a second, and falsely) that he is all good then he could have made something that is all good without there being evil.

Shakyamunison
How can a being that does not exist be forgiven for things that we do?

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Bardock42
I don't get this logic, why would there have to be an equal opposing force. If God created everything like he wanted it and we assume (for a second, and falsely) that he is all good then he could have made something that is all good without there being evil.

Technically it wouldn't be any need.
If God is all powerful and all knowing, he would have destroyed the ones who betrayed him.
He would technically make Heaven for people, and there would be all...harmonious.
But how can a creature which is made by God, who is perfect, to do imperfect things?

This whole think makes little sense anyway.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
How can a being that does not exist be forgiven for things that we do?

Aren't we doomed cos Satan persuaded Eve to give Adam the apple? Or something to that effect.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
...Aren't we doomed cos Satan persuaded Eve to give Adam the apple? Or something to that effect.

That is correct according to Christian mythology. However, I don't like the idea of Satan because it allows people to dodge responsibility for their actions. For example; “the devil made me do it”, or “I was tempted and week, and Satan took advantage of me”. The truth is, we are the author of good and evil, and until we take responsibility for the things we do, we will simply have no power to change.

lil bitchiness
Oh absolutely.

I am just trying to understand the idea of God (assuming) creating the devil - because thats what technically happened. Technically.

That idea, kind of makes little sense, in a bigger picture of course. Together with the 'testing' part.

Why would a perfect being create imperfect things - then judge them on it? Its little sinister.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Oh absolutely.

I am just trying to understand the idea of God (assuming) creating the devil - because thats what technically happened. Technically.

That idea, kind of makes little sense, in a bigger picture of course. Together with the 'testing' part.

Why would a perfect being create imperfect things - then judge them on it? Its little sinister.

The entire idea behind Christianity is compelling because it gives us all the excuses we need. Then it tells us we are special and superior to non-Christians because we will go to heaven and they will go to hell.

Once you buy into this way of thinking, rationalization takes care of the rest. So it does not matter if things don’t make sense to the logical mind, because Christians are told that the logical mind is evil.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The entire idea behind Christianity is compelling because it gives us all the excuses we need. Then it tells us we are special and superior to non-Christians because we will go to heaven and they will go to hell.

Once you buy into this way of thinking, rationalization takes care of the rest. So it does not matter if things don’t make sense to the logical mind, because Christians are told that the logical mind is evil.

It would be easier to deal if only Christians thought as such. Once you have groups and groups of people with the same mind regarding religion - it gets difficult.

Anyway, using the same logic - what would happen if God forgives Satan. What if Satan repents and asks for forgiveness?
Will that make all people inevitably good?

Will we all die, cos there will be no need for testing?

mattrab
I think God made the devil, to give us a choice, so we have the right to choose which path we want to follow? So in some sense he gives us freedom? However if he already knows what is going to happen to all of us in the future, he already knows if we choose god or not, so how is that free?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
It would be easier to deal if only Christians thought as such. Once you have groups and groups of people with the same mind regarding religion - it gets difficult.

Anyway, using the same logic - what would happen if God forgives Satan. What if Satan repents and asks for forgiveness?
Will that make all people inevitably good?

Will we all die, cos there will be no need for testing?

It is a noble act to forgive someone who does not deserve forgiveness. So, why doesn't god forgive satan? If god did forgive satan, then the mythology of Christianity would fall apart. The simple answer is that both god and satan do not exist in the way that Christians and others believe. They are icons that represent aspects of human nature. Therefore the real question should be can we forgive our selves?

Regret
Originally posted by debbiejo
Satan should be able to be forgiven if he asks forgiveness according to all gods creations (people) asking, but Satan might be considered different because he was never human but an angel. Never the less, angels have free will just as humans and IMO be forgiven for transgressions. The Bible says there is NO sin that cannot be forgiven.

Mormons believe that angels are messengers of God. Given this, angels can be anything, and it does not necessarily reference some entity that is non human. Also, Biblical reference does not necessitate Cherubim, Angels, Seraphim, etc. as being anything other than a position, a title.

Mormons also believe that Satan was a spirit just like all men. We believe that prior to creation God presented the method and process that mortality would occur, which was necessary for the spirits to gain physical bodies, which is necessary to become more than a spirit. Satan stated that agency was a poor choice and suggested a plan where he would limit agency so as to insure proper behavior of all man. Jesus stated that Satan's plan was flawed and stated that he would lead man and allow him his agency as God presented the plan. Satan became angry and felt humiliated, he left, and one third of the hosts of heaven followed him. They are spirits and will never gain a body due to the fact that now is the time to gain a body.

The Bible is speaking to man. There is no reason to believe either way concerning whether the sin of Satan can or cannot be forgiven, especially given the amount of knowledge Satan has, and had at the time of his sin.

Originally posted by Alliance
Well, if "God" is all powerful and all knowing... that means he was responsible for satan, which means that he will clearly not "forgive" Satan. Why? Because God wanted an opposing force (Satan would basically be a straw man argument) and God has Satan exactly where he want him.

If man is literally the image of God, then man has the capability of such held in an imperfect form. If God is capable of anything, why would those created in his image not be capable of everything? We are capable of good or evil, if we were not, and were created in God's image then God would be limited in his ability. Also, if God is capable of Good, then by virtue of logic he is capable of Evil, regardless of whether he would ever be evil. Given this, perfection is capable of evil, why would you create a being that is not modeled after perfection? Claiming that God is responsible for our actions and also Satan's is declining responsibility for one's own actions. If man is not responsible for his actions then there would be no need for punishment. Satan is responsible for his own actions as well.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Forgiven for what? His own nature? That's really complicated if you think about it.

Satan's nature is the same as ours. A murderer is not forgiven because his nature makes him a murderer, there are always options, agency requires the making of choices. Choices are ours to make, Satan is no different.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I think as far as this whole satan/god thing is, people can't have it both ways. If there is a god which all good, then there has to be an equal opposing force which is all evil - devil. Not made by God, or cursed by God, but sort of independent of his creation.

Kind of like, one cannot be without the other.

But to implement the whole ''god made satan'' is a bit illogical, in my opinon.

Opposition to good does not necessitate an avatar of such. Satan is not God's opposite, he is Christ's. Christ is a creation of God's.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Technically it wouldn't be any need.
If God is all powerful and all knowing, he would have destroyed the ones who betrayed him.

Did they betray him? Or did they merely choose a path that was not in line with God's will? If God grants agency, then one must be allowed to act upon things with this agency, if they are not allowed this then agency is void. All are judged at the time appointed for such to allow for time to request forgiveness, given this evil continues until the time for it to be judged. To act quickly would void any opportunity for forgiveness.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
He would technically make Heaven for people, and there would be all...harmonious.

Forced harmony is not a good thing. Agency is important. This forced environment would be contrary to the teachings of the Bible. Force has never been considered a good means of acquiring peace.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
But how can a creature which is made by God, who is perfect, to do imperfect things?

Can God do anything? Yes. We are patterned after God/perfection, and he is capable of being imperfect, thus we are capable of imperfection because God is capable of everything.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
This whole think makes little sense anyway.

Aren't we doomed cos Satan persuaded Eve to give Adam the apple? Or something to that effect.

Biblical religions hold that Christ's Atonement cleared man of eternal spiritual death/hell (separation from God), and allowed for forgiveness due to his satisfying of the eternal law of cause and effect/justice. Given this man can repent/ allow Christ to bear the consequence of our actions and be capable of returning to God when the appointed time comes.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Oh absolutely.

I am just trying to understand the idea of God (assuming) creating the devil - because thats what technically happened. Technically.

That idea, kind of makes little sense, in a bigger picture of course. Together with the 'testing' part.

Why would a perfect being create imperfect things - then judge them on it? Its little sinister.

God created us in his image, with the intent that we could become more like him. He doesn't judge us, per say, we behave as we do and that allows us a manner of existence dependent on if our behavior is in line with the laws that exist that allow for types of action. You cannot make a cake if you through all the ingredients in a bowl and don't stir before baking, some things are only possible if one is in line with the laws governing those abilities. And remember agency is important.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The entire idea behind Christianity is compelling because it gives us all the excuses we need. Then it tells us we are special and superior to non-Christians because we will go to heaven and they will go to hell.

Once you buy into this way of thinking, rationalization takes care of the rest. So it does not matter if things don’t make sense to the logical mind, because Christians are told that the logical mind is evil.

I understand where you get this idea from, but please don't lump all Christians together, I don't feel that I fit this and consider myself Christian. I understand who you are speaking to with the term Christian here, but I do feel that some may not.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It is a noble act to forgive someone who does not deserve forgiveness. So, why doesn't god forgive satan? If god did forgive satan, then the mythology of Christianity would fall apart. The simple answer is that both god and satan do not exist in the way that Christians and others believe. They are icons that represent aspects of human nature. Therefore the real question should be can we forgive our selves?

I disagree with your appraisal of God and Satan's existence, but then we will disagree on that and it does not have to be discussed.

Forgiveness will be given, but those forgiven will still need to behave in a particular manner to be capable of performing as existence in heaven requires. Given this God will not force proper behavior, agency is important.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Regret
I understand where you get this idea from, but please don't lump all Christians together, I don't feel that I fit this and consider myself Christian. I understand who you are speaking to with the term Christian here, but I do feel that some may not.



I disagree with your appraisal of God and Satan's existence, but then we will disagree on that and it does not have to be discussed.



You are correct, I was wrong to clump all Christians under the same umbrella. For that I apologize. However, the idea of a thoughtful and enlightened Christian is new to me.

On the second part; we agree more then we disagree. I think your idea of god is beyond the superficial aspect that I was talking about. I know this because we have talked on pm’s many times, and you have told me that the Mormons teach self responsibility, and that is my biggest beef with Fundamentalist Christians.

I hope that my careless post has not offended you too greatly.

Regret
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You are correct, I was wrong to clump all Christians under the same umbrella. For that I apologize. However, the idea of a thoughtful and enlightened Christian is new to me.

On the second part; we agree more then we disagree. I think your idea of god is beyond the superficial aspect that I was talking about. I know this because we have talked on pm’s many times, and you have told me that the Mormons teach self responsibility, and that is my biggest beef with Fundamentalist Christians.

I hope that my careless post has not offended you too greatly.

No, it did not offend, I just had to post it because I did not want others drawing the conclusion from your post. I knew what you were speaking of, and the type of Christian you were referencing, and agree with you on it.

Yes, we do agree on a great many concepts and beliefs. So far I find more in common with your beliefs about the aspects of religion that I believe are of greatest importance than the majority of people on this forum.

Alliance
Regret wins scariest post of the week award stick out tongue

Regret
Originally posted by Alliance
Regret wins scariest post of the week award stick out tongue

Sorry, decided to respond to everyone in one post instead of a number of sequential posts wink

Besides, you know I did it for you smokin'

Alliance
Oh I know baby.

Shakyamunison
sick

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
sick

droolio

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
droolio

I don't remember drool being white. eek!

Alliance
With Urizen...its not drool.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Alliance
With Urizen...its not drool.

You get a gold star for pointing out the obvious.

Alliance
Its not a very nice gold star...its very textured and has no sharp points.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Alliance
Its not a very nice gold star...its very textured and has no sharp points.

It was the best I cold find on short notice. mad

Alliance
It still sucks.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I don't remember drool being white. eek!

That's cuz it's not drool....is cum droolio

Alliance
You should alway have your protein AFTER your workout foo! mad

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Alliance
It still sucks.

Then it is appropriate for you. laughing

Alliance
Why, because it representative of your character?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Alliance
Why, because it representative of your character?

roll eyes (sarcastic) That was lame and below your standards. You can do better then that.

Alliance
mikejackson1

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Alliance
mikejackson1


Booooooo Booooooo Booooooo

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Alliance
You should alway have your protein AFTER your workout foo! mad

I do. That's an easy source of protein to obtain.

ESB -1138
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I am not sure how the Christian theology works, absolutely, but I assume Satan doesn't want to be forgiven.

Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven.

Im presuming thats true for all other religion - although I could be wrong.

Satan does not rule hell. Satan hates hell. It was made for Satan and his angels to suffer.

Alliance
Perhaps, but since god made them....God chose for Satan to be satan...he made hell to make people suffer.

He's like a small child who is all powerful, and even though all is predestined, wants people to "choose" him, so he creates an alternative to give the illision of choice...even though the choice has already been made.

debbiejo
Originally posted by Bardock42
I don't get this logic, why would there have to be an equal opposing force. If God created everything like he wanted it and we assume (for a second, and falsely) that he is all good then he could have made something that is all good without there being evil. I believe it stems from the old misunderstood view of opposites........lol

People didn't understand how the world worked just as lightening, the seasons and good and evil, so they named them...Gave them diety names and such.

ESB -1138
Originally posted by Alliance
Perhaps, but since god made them....God chose for Satan to be satan...he made hell to make people suffer.

He's like a small child who is all powerful, and even though all is predestined, wants people to "choose" him, so he creates an alternative to give the illision of choice...even though the choice has already been made.

Jesus went to hell. Why would God allow everyone into heaven when he allowed Jesus to go to hell?

Alliance
What? That makes no sense.

I can give you the easy reason though.

ESB -1138
Originally posted by Alliance
What? That makes no sense.

I can give you the easy reason though.

What makes no sense?

Alliance
Originally posted by ESB -1138
Jesus went to hell. Why would God allow everyone into heaven when he allowed Jesus to go to hell?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by ESB -1138
Jesus went to hell. Why would God allow everyone into heaven when he allowed Jesus to go to hell?

Jesus went to hell? I don't think so. Jesus went to Abraham's place (I don't remember what it was called).

Alliance
Isn't that where Michal Jackson lives...in Dubai?

ESB -1138
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Jesus went to hell? I don't think so. Jesus went to Abraham's place (I don't remember what it was called).

Jesus went to hell when he died for three days. When he went to hell he took the keys of life and death and opened the doors to heaven.

Alliance
SO all the good jews went to hell beofre Christ?

ESB -1138
Originally posted by Alliance
SO all the good jews went to hell beofre Christ?

Yeah. That's another reason why Jesus went to hell. To bring the righteous and those who obeyed God out and into heaven. But then hell was divided in two.

Alliance
laughing

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by ESB -1138
Jesus went to hell when he died for three days. When he went to hell he took the keys of life and death and opened the doors to heaven.

Give the scripture... not like that really means anything to me. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Alliance
*pokes scripture*

crazy
Yea ESB I have never heard of that either, would like to see some scripture too.

ESB -1138
Originally posted by crazy
Yea ESB I have never heard of that either, would like to see some scripture too.

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Ephesians 4:8-10
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended firty in the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.

1 Peter 3:18-19
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in the prison;

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by ESB -1138
Matthew 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Ephesians 4:8-10
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended firty in the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.

1 Peter 3:18-19
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in the prison;

That is a stretch. If I worked on it really hard, I could come up with at least one or two other interpretations of those verses.

debbiejo
Originally posted by ESB -1138
Jesus went to hell. Why would God allow everyone into heaven when he allowed Jesus to go to hell? It says He decended into hell in the Apostles Creed

The Apostles' Creed reads:

"I believe in God, the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth;
and in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord;
who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead and buried.
He descended into hell.
The third day he rose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father almighty.
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen."

This particular creed, known since the Third Century in the Western Church, draws reliably from the New Testament in general. However the phrase "He descended into hell" was evidently derived from an unusually-worded portion of Peter's First Epistle which says:

"He (Jesus) was put to death in the flesh death of the body, but he was raised to life in the Spirit, in which also he went and preached to the disobedient spirits who were in prison in the days of Noah when God waited patiently while the ark was being built...For this is why the gospel was preached even to the dead so that, although they have already been judged in the flesh like men, they might have life in the Spirit like God." (1 Peter 3:18-20; 4:6)

The first thing to note in this passage is that the Greek word "Hades"---translated "hell" in the Apostles' Creed---is the underworld of Greek mythology.
It really means decended to the dead....

There are two perspectives necessary to understand this issue, one cultural and historical and the other exegetical. In the old King James Version, the English word “hell” actually was used to translate two different words and two very different concepts. One term was the word gehenna, (e.g., Matt 5:22). This was adapted from the name of a valley to the south of the Temple in Jerusalem where the city garbage was burned, the “Valley of Hinnom.” Because of the perpetual fires, and also because there had been idols to the Canaanite god Molech erected there to which were offered human sacrifices (2 Kings 23:10), ge hinnom (“valley of Hinnom” in Hebrew) became a symbol for the judgment of God. The fires also came to symbolize that punishment and destruction, and became the more common way to conceptualize “hell” in later Christian tradition.

Another term, and one more relevant to our topic, is the Greek term Hades (e.g., Matt 11:23). This term comes from Greek mythology in which it was the abode of the dead. It was used to translate into Greek the Hebrew concept of Sheol. While in the Old Testament this term was not mythological, it was a metaphorical way to talk about what happened to people when they died. Sheol was simply the place where dead people go. It was almost synonymous with death and especially “grave,” and indeed is used that way in several Old Testament passages, e.g., Psa 49:14:

Like sheep they are appointed for Sheol; Death shall be their shepherd; straight to the grave they descend, and their form shall waste away; Sheol shall be their home.

This confusion of the concept may already have been at work in the early church, and may even have influenced the passages in 1 Peter, recognized by most scholars to be some of the latest in the New Testament written near the end of the first century. We cannot be sure of that, but in any case there is more to be gained in looking exegetically at those passages.

That was why the gospel was preached even to the dead: in order that, although in the body they were condemned to die as everyone else dies, yet in the spirit they might live as God lives.??

This means that the gospel "was preached" in the past to people who are now dead, not that it was preached now by Christ to those who are in the realm of the dead. The NRSV seems to render it along the same lines. This is also more obviously the meaning in 3:19 that gives an example from the past. In other words, preaching euaggelizo to those who are now dead was made in the past to call them to repentance and eternal life, while the death of Jesus is a proclamation kyrusso of condemnation to those who are now dead who had earlier refused to respond to that preaching.

This strongly suggests that we cannot on the basis of 1 Peter make a case for the proposition that the dead may still respond to the gospel and be saved. In light of this evidence, there does not seem to be any biblical support, and very little support in early Christian tradition beyond the later highly questionable concept of purgatory, that Jesus descended into hell and preached to those who had already died with the goal of calling them to repentance beyond the grave.

Which means that the OT is not worth reading because there is not promise there of a redemer know matter how much faith was placed in him.

peejayd
Originally posted by debbiejo
Satan should be able to be forgiven if he asks forgiveness according to all gods creations (people) asking, but Satan might be considered different because he was never human but an angel. Never the less, angels have free will just as humans and IMO be forgiven for transgressions.

"Whereas angels, though greater in might and power, bring not a railing judgment against them before the Lord."
II Peter 2:11

* we all know that good triumphs over evil... always... even Satan himself knows this... but even Satan is deceived by himself to think that he can win over God, that's why up until now and up to the end, he will always rebel against God and will not ask for God's forgiveness...

Originally posted by debbiejo
The Bible says there is NO sin that cannot be forgiven.

* according to the Bible, there are sins that will not be forgiven... wink

Originally posted by Alliance
Well, if "God" is all powerful and all knowing... that means he was responsible for satan, which means that he will clearly not "forgive" Satan. Why? Because God wanted an opposing force (Satan would basically be a straw man argument) and God has Satan exactly where he want him.

* that's not like it at all, my friend... God created all good things... and God is not all-knowing... wink

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by peejayd
* that's not like it at all, my friend... God created all good things... and God is not all-knowing... wink

So God is not omniscient either ?

Darth Kreiger
Christianity kinda botched up their religion. I've actually seen a Priest that believes all people will be forgiven, including Satan.

Also another thing, God is responsible for Satan's creation, he made Angels, which is what Lucifer(that spelling looks off) was. That means that God created Evil, in which case that makes him worse than Satan, he KNEW what would happen, he allowed it to happen, according to the Bible, God is all powerful, he could wipe Satan and his demons from existence if he wanted, yet he doesn't, Christianity is based on Fear to get into Paradise, as opposed to many others.

Templares
Can Satan be Forgiven? Yes. If necessary, i'll vouch for him eek!. God is merciful.

Quiero Mota
Originally posted by mattrab
According to christian theology, God is an all-loving God? So therefore can he forgive Satan, and can Satan still have a place in Heaven?


No.

Satan = a guy who f*cks his friend's wife.

You can pretty much kiss that friendship goodbye.

Alliance
So we can interpret then that god is not all merciful?

Regret
Originally posted by Alliance
So we can interpret then that god is not all merciful?

People seem to think that by being perfect good traits can conflict. God is all merciful, but he is also just. He will do everything he can, but mercy cannot rob justice.

Madman_V3N0M
Sure I can be forgiven! Who said I can't?...whoops... er ... I mean... dunno.

debbiejo
Originally posted by Regret
People seem to think that by being perfect good traits can conflict. God is all merciful, but he is also just. He will do everything he can, but mercy cannot rob justice. I believe god would be in all emotions, not just the positive ones....

Alliance
Originally posted by Regret
People seem to think that by being perfect good traits can conflict. God is all merciful, but he is also just. He will do everything he can, but mercy cannot rob justice.

I think the determinism robs him of any will. I don't believe in justice...humans have know idea how to balance out actions.

Regret
Originally posted by Alliance
I think the determinism robs him of any will. I don't believe in justice...humans have know idea how to balance out actions.

Humans do not, but if there is a God, he is capable of it. Determinism is a man made construct.

Alliance
You don't know if he is capable. If god has absolute control...then he is loceked in his own words...we are then predestined to a specific fate.

Belegûr
I've not read this thread, I'm merely commenting on the title:
Can Satan be forgiven by God?

Well, to begin with, it depends largely on your interpretation of Satan....
I mean, is he "the Enemy" in a jurisprudencial sort-of-way as in the Hebrew scriptures, perhaps led astray, or is he the evil figure of the later Christian tradition?

Imperial_Samura
There was a guy back in the very late antiquity called Origen who wrote a lot on theological matters and he argued that logically if Satan asked for forgiveness then it would be given. The Church of course didn't like this (or that he was saying God could have a physical form if he wanted.) He ended up being called a heretic (though the Church continued to use a lot of his more acceptable texts.)

Anyway, Satan isn't stupid. And besides, if I was Satan I would want to mess up God plan, and it seems that by asking for forgiveness would certainly do that. Pull the bottom card out of the whole salvation/damnation house of cards. And technically Satan isn't dead so...

Alliance
But satan is trapped by gods will...

Grimm22
I donno erm

I mean I can basicly forgive anyone as long as they are sorry for what they have done, heck I might even forgive Osama Bin Laden.

But, Satan is basicly the living embodyment of evil.

Quiero Mota
Originally posted by Grimm22
But, Satan is basicly the living embodyment of evil.

That's right, ey. Satan is screwed like an inmate with no possiblity of parole.

Regret
I would suggest you consider my post earlier, the long one. I responded to some of these statements.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Grimm22
I donno erm

I mean I can basicly forgive anyone as long as they are sorry for what they have done, heck I might even forgive Osama Bin Laden.

But, Satan is basicly the living embodyment of evil.

No he's not. Evil is a force, not a person. He is also God's child. If he is truly evil incarnate, then God is imperfect, because he gave birth to this evil.

Evil is either a state of mind, a choice, or a behavior, but it is not a person....Satan just practices "evil" but he is not the force itself. Otherwise, what would that make God? The literal creator of evil, and a hypocrit.

If Satan is truly sorry, then yes God can forgive him, as it is God's law that he must forgive those who ask for it. However, if Satan is never sorry, then he will never beg for forgiveness, and it won't happen.

But the question itself is...CAN God do it ? Or is it beyond his ability?

Nocturnalwolf82
So the question is, Can Satan be forgiven by God?

No, he can not. God is not all forgiving. God made a law (the 10 commandment) and anyone who brakes the law will pay in Hell. God will forgive anyone who asks for it, stops braking the law, and gives there life to him. Hell was made for Satan and he is going to try to take as many people as he can with him.

If you want to find out why I say God is not all forgiving and wont forgive Satan then go to this web site and listen to “The Meaning of The Cross”. All your questions about God forgiving Satan can be answered here. heartcrymissionary.com/index.php?option=com_weblinks&catid=39&Itemid=85


Pro 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.

Grimm22
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
No he's not. Evil is a force, not a person. He is also God's child. If he is truly evil incarnate, then God is imperfect, because he gave birth to this evil.

Evil is either a state of mind, a choice, or a behavior, but it is not a person....Satan just practices "evil" but he is not the force itself. Otherwise, what would that make God? The literal creator of evil, and a hypocrit.

If Satan is truly sorry, then yes God can forgive him, as it is God's law that he must forgive those who ask for it. However, if Satan is never sorry, then he will never beg for forgiveness, and it won't happen.

But the question itself is...CAN God do it ? Or is it beyond his ability?

If satan was truley sorry for what he had done, then I think God could forgive him.

God is always willing to forgive if you are truley sorry

debbiejo
Satan only means in the Hebrew "accuser, adversary", not tormentor.

All god myth stories have an adversary, even comic book heros.

Alliance
Without it...the story doesn't function.

debbiejo
And we'd all be a lot happier too..............

Alliance
i'd agree.

Nichole
Originally posted by mattrab
According to christian theology, God is an all-loving God? So therefore can he forgive Satan, and can Satan still have a place in Heaven?

Can Satan forgive God, and can they live happily ever after in Hell? big grin

debbiejo
If I were satan, I would be really really mad..........vexed actually..........I'd screw up everything and take god to court, and sue his ass off......yep.

Alliance
Sueing is bad....bad for society. No monetary gains should be made.

debbiejo
Originally posted by Alliance
Sueing is bad....bad for society. No monetary gains should be made. Pfft..............Wrong.............I'm talking about a share of the heavenly wealth here and my share of government!

Jim Reaper
He should be forgiven because I opened one of those doors at the flea market, to see something i've never seen before, and it told me god really wants to forgive all sinners... C'mon big guy, give satan a break.

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Alliance
But satan is trapped by gods will...

Even more reason to find every loop hole available. Show up the claim of free will and all that, because surely then Satan if an image of how little free will a person could ever have with the concept of an omniscient and omnipresent God.

peejayd
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
So God is not omniscient either ?

* yes, God is NOT omniscient...

"And they have built the high place of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind."
Jeremiah 7:31

"And have built the high places of Ba'al to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Ba'al, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind;"
Jeremiah 19:5

* if God is omniscient, He should not have created Satan in the first place...

"And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day."
Genesis 1:31

* the intent of God was to create good... evil was not part of His plan... wink

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by peejayd
* yes, God is NOT omniscient...

"And they have built the high place of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind."
Jeremiah 7:31

"And have built the high places of Ba'al to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Ba'al, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind;"
Jeremiah 19:5

* if God is omniscient, He should not have created Satan in the first place...

"And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day."
Genesis 1:31

* the intent of God was to create good... evil was not part of His plan... wink

I find the idea of a fallible God, who was unable to create perfectly far more comforting then the idea of the omniscient and omnipotent one.

Now he just has to stop acting like he is perfect, and accept mistakes can be made come to terms with the fact he does not know everything.

peejayd
* God created everything perfect... but He does not want us to be like remote-controlled robots... He gave us the gift of the power of free will...

"I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before thee life and death, the blessing and the curse: therefore choose life, that thou mayest live, thou and thy seed;"
Deuteronomy 30:19

* God gave us the power to choose between life and death, blessing and curse... but He gave a recommendation - choose life... wink

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by peejayd
* God created everything perfect...

So God created evil perfectly.

Alliance
Sounds like a plan.

peejayd
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
So God created evil perfectly.

* nope... wrong conclusion... wink

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by peejayd
* nope... wrong conclusion... wink

SO, god did not create everything perfect.


Make up your mind...

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by peejayd
* God created everything perfect... but He does not want us to be like remote-controlled robots... He gave us the gift of the power of free will...

"I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before thee life and death, the blessing and the curse: therefore choose life, that thou mayest live, thou and thy seed;"
Deuteronomy 30:19

* God gave us the power to choose between life and death, blessing and curse... but He gave a recommendation - choose life... wink

That is illogical. Someone can not create something perfect that is capable of being so fundamentally flawed and imperfect. And the Bible goes on about how we aren't perfect and so on. And the earth most certainly isn't perfect.

Now this leads to three possible conclusions - If God is perfect his creation would be incapable of being flawed unless he willed it so - that is he created evil to be here.

Or: God is not perfect and while he created the best he could it is none the less not perfect.

Or: God is perfect, yet unable to actually create something perfect due to something fundemental in what he is creating.

Regret
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
That is illogical. Someone can not create something perfect that is capable of being so fundamentally flawed and imperfect. And the Bible goes on about how we aren't perfect and so on. And the earth most certainly isn't perfect.

Now this leads to three possible conclusions - If God is perfect his creation would be incapable of being flawed unless he willed it so - that is he created evil to be here.

Or: God is not perfect and while he created the best he could it is none the less not perfect.

Or: God is perfect, yet unable to actually create something perfect due to something fundemental in what he is creating.
That is making the assumption that perfection is incompatible with the ability to be imperfect, which is in error. Perfection is a state, not an ability. God's creation was perfect, through its action it became imperfect, because it became imperfect, it cannot be perfect.

Madman_V3N0M
One thing is that God did not give the angels free will, but Lucifer was an angel... so... what does this mean?

Alliance
That Chrstianity is a load of crock?

Atlantis001
Originally posted by Madman_V3N0M
One thing is that God did not give the angels free will, but Lucifer was an angel... so... what does this mean?

Alliance is probably right, but if yo still want to give a meaning to this.... then you can think that Lucifer was part of Gods plan.

Alliance
The mythology itself is at least contradictory.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Alliance
The mythology itself is at least contradictory.

Come on, say it like it is. The idea of hell was made up by people who saw hot gasses coming out of the ground. They had no idea what was causing this phenomenon, so say made up the story of hell.

Alliance
I prefer Greek mythology...at leas the Pythia actually had an excuse to see visions of Apollo...she was high.

debbiejo
According to scripture, Jesus is the lawyer to defend us all, if we accept, so if Satan were to accept would he also be given this choice of the lawyer/...........Though it also says Jesus is judge,........so he is judge and lawyer and satan is the only the adversary, mean opponent....If all if forgiven for the asking, then satan should and would be forgiven.........unless Jesus is NOT JUST TO HIS WORD.

DigiMark007
Originally posted by mattrab
According to christian theology, God is an all-loving God? So therefore can he forgive Satan, and can Satan still have a place in Heaven?

I sure hope I can.

confused



......



evil face

peejayd
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
SO, god did not create everything perfect.

Make up your mind...

* the perfection is based on God's eyes, not yours... wink

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
That is illogical. Someone can not create something perfect that is capable of being so fundamentally flawed and imperfect. And the Bible goes on about how we aren't perfect and so on. And the earth most certainly isn't perfect.

Now this leads to three possible conclusions - If God is perfect his creation would be incapable of being flawed unless he willed it so - that is he created evil to be here.

Or: God is not perfect and while he created the best he could it is none the less not perfect.

Or: God is perfect, yet unable to actually create something perfect due to something fundemental in what he is creating.

* God did not create anything evil, it is us, the humans who gave in and became wicked... we have free will, why choose evil over good? and why blame God for the existence of evil whereas we are the ones have the power resist evil and cleave to what is good? confused

* according to the Bible, people are commanded to strive for perfection, and people can achieve it, not by the judgment of other people's eyes but of God... Noah and Job are examples of perfect persons in the eyes of God... wink

debbiejo
No relpy to me?? OK, we just look at things differently.................



debbiejo........................with LUV.

peejayd
Originally posted by Madman_V3N0M
One thing is that God did not give the angels free will, but Lucifer was an angel... so... what does this mean?

* angels also have free will, ya know... that's why Satan turned his back from God... and some angels came with Satan... wink

Originally posted by debbiejo
According to scripture, Jesus is the lawyer to defend us all, if we accept, so if Satan were to accept would he also be given this choice of the lawyer/...........Though it also says Jesus is judge,........so he is judge and lawyer and satan is the only the adversary, mean opponent....If all if forgiven for the asking, then satan should and would be forgiven.........unless Jesus is NOT JUST TO HIS WORD.

* generally, NOT ALL sins can be forgiven, so God or Christ have the power to forgive and not to forgive someone...

* consider the time element, Christ is not a judge and a lawyer at the same time... Satan is also called the "accuser", the direct adversary of the "lawyer" (Christ) and the Father stands as the "judge"...

* if Satan could be forgiven, why don't he ask for it now? because Satan himself knows that what he had done, what he's doing, and what he will do is unforgivable...

* the time element where Christ stands as the "judge" is His millenium reign after the rapture... together with Christ are the people of God... They will judge people and even angels... wink

peejayd
Originally posted by debbiejo
No relpy to me?? OK, we just look at things differently.................

debbiejo........................with LUV.

* there you go, from the Bible, peejayd... with love... stick out tongue

debbiejo
If lucifer can call opon the name of god??????????????? Then he would not be forgiven?????


goes against the WORD OF GOD don't you think?

peejayd
* nope, Satan is already condemned, and so are those angels who sided with him...

* and i don't even believe that Satan had a plan of asking forgiveness due to his character... he would just be filled with rage knowing his time of destruction is nearing... plus, he would try to deceive all people for them to be with him in his suffering...

* the deception is done with so much subtlety, one might think he is on the right track, but unfortunately, he's not... wink

Regret
Originally posted by debbiejo
If lucifer can call opon the name of god??????????????? Then he would not be forgiven?????


goes against the WORD OF GOD don't you think?

The word of God is spoken to men for man's benefit. Satan is not a man, so it is not necessarily binding in relation to him. Anything that God does in regards to Satan is quite possibly outside any binding word in the Bible. Given this, from a Biblical stance there is a possibility, but there is no contradiction with scripture with God's dealings with Satan.

Jim Reaper
Some view satan as a henchman of god, that he is merely an advocate that gauges humans virtue. He test humans faith, blah, blah, and so on... If he is an agent of god, than he has no reason to be forgiven.

Atlantis001
Satan is about the creation of the material world, it has nothing to do with good and evil... its character was taken from other mythologies in their own versions for the creation of the world. The serpent, the dragon, and other reptiles which are usually associated to Satan are figures that represents life, and creation in other ancient cultures from where the Satan´s myth was originated from.

I believe that it was some sort of misinterpretation of the original myth that lead to this modern version. Specially because these two distinct subjects of 'good and evil' and the 'creation of the world' are easily confused since they are related to each other.

RocasAtoll
Originally posted by peejayd
* the perfection is based on God's eyes, not yours... wink



* God did not create anything evil, it is us, the humans who gave in and became wicked... we have free will, why choose evil over good? and why blame God for the existence of evil whereas we are the ones have the power resist evil and cleave to what is good? confused

* according to the Bible, people are commanded to strive for perfection, and people can achieve it, not by the judgment of other people's eyes but of God... Noah and Job are examples of perfect persons in the eyes of God... wink

He created evil itself

Nowhere in the bible does it say strive for perfection.

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by peejayd

* God did not create anything evil, it is us, the humans who gave in and became wicked... we have free will, why choose evil over good? and why blame God for the existence of evil whereas we are the ones have the power resist evil and cleave to what is good? confused

* according to the Bible, people are commanded to strive for perfection, and people can achieve it, not by the judgment of other people's eyes but of God... Noah and Job are examples of perfect persons in the eyes of God... wink

God created man - is man perfect? We are told no. The very fact we can apparently choose to be "flawed" contributes to this. God creates us, he created the means through which we would fall, he made it so the utilisation of free will initially would lead us down the path of sin, he made is so that evil could exist in the unvierse, he must have made Satan, who would be a catalyst for imperfection - and yet you say God is in no way responsible, at all, for the state of the universe?

And as to Noah - was he perfect? Did he actually exist? There are some major logical problems with his story. And as to Job, well, I think that is God showing his true colors. "Oh sure Satan, I give you permission to try and break him. Do your worst, it wont matter" - always convinced me that God wasn't as white morally as people make out.

peejayd
Originally posted by RocasAtoll
He created evil itself

* nope, God created everything good...

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
Nowhere in the bible does it say strive for perfection.

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."
Matthew 5:48

"Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you."
II Corinthians 13:11

* and what are these? confused

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
God created man - is man perfect? We are told no. The very fact we can apparently choose to be "flawed" contributes to this.

"Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions."
Ecclesiastes 7:29

* as King Solomon says... God made man upright... but men sought out many inventions...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
God creates us, he created the means through which we would fall, he made it so the utilisation of free will initially would lead us down the path of sin, he made is so that evil could exist in the unvierse, he must have made Satan, who would be a catalyst for imperfection - and yet you say God is in no way responsible, at all, for the state of the universe?

* before the creation of man, Satan had already turned his back on God, and succumbed to evil... but even before that, God created Satan as a good angel... angels have free will and Satan chose a different path - a path of evil...

* the best verse that deals with free will is this:

"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:"
Deuteronomy 30:19

* God had set before us - life and death, blessing and curse - but gives a very blatant recommendation -> choose life... wink

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
And as to Noah - was he perfect? Did he actually exist? There are some major logical problems with his story.

* let's see now...

"By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."
Hebrews 11:7

* Saint Paul believes Noah existed...

"Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."
I Peter 3:20

"And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;"
II Peter 2:5

* Saint Peter also believes Noah existed... so i also believe Noah existed...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
And as to Job, well, I think that is God showing his true colors. "Oh sure Satan, I give you permission to try and break him. Do your worst, it wont matter" - always convinced me that God wasn't as white morally as people make out.

* that's not the whole point in the story of Job's life...

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation : for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him."
James 1:12

* see how powerful and wise God is? Satan tries to deceive people and make them evil... but while Satan is doing that, God promised to give a crown of life to those who endures Satan's temptations...

* in the end, Job endured the temptations, what happened?

"And the Lord turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before.
Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the Lord had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.
So the Lord blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses.
After this lived Job an hundred and forty years, and saw his sons, and his sons' sons, even four generations.
So Job died, being old and full of days."
Job 42:10-12, 16-17

* see? wink

Imperial_Samura
Firstly of course - Bible claims Noah was something - by all rational reasoning the story can't be as the Bible says it is - the flood, the ark, the animals. It just doesn't work.

And what I am getting is God made man, but neither flawed or perfect. He made us with the ability to choose to be flawed, or pursue perfection. But the fact remains that as creator of it all God's creation has the avenue of the flawed, of evil built into it. God, if one believes, is not some important figure, his creation = all things in his creation. If I build a car that has the random chance of breaking down for no reason, but then again might run perfectly forever, I am still buildinn into it something not good. I am giving it the chance to break down - and I know that could happen, and will happening a lot, due to the number built. I have not created something perfect.

And as to Job - well, all that suffering God let the Devil wreak on poor old Job with God's permission was clearly worth it and not bad at all because it was proving an abstract point - even if God does let you suffer terrible loss as long as you stay loyal to him then you'll come good eventually.

peejayd
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Firstly of course - Bible claims Noah was something - by all rational reasoning the story can't be as the Bible says it is - the flood, the ark, the animals. It just doesn't work.

* the Flood was very much proven historically, geographically and scientifically...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
And what I am getting is God made man, but neither flawed or perfect. He made us with the ability to choose to be flawed, or pursue perfection. But the fact remains that as creator of it all God's creation has the avenue of the flawed, of evil built into it. God, if one believes, is not some important figure, his creation = all things in his creation. If I build a car that has the random chance of breaking down for no reason, but then again might run perfectly forever, I am still buildinn into it something not good. I am giving it the chance to break down - and I know that could happen, and will happening a lot, due to the number built. I have not created something perfect.

* humans, by nature, are good because God created humans as good creatures...

* i see it like this: a mother is pregnant, she imagines everything nice and good for her future child... the child was born, the mother took good care of her, they lived happily... the child now was on his teens, got involved with bad friends, got hooked up with drugs, alcohol and smokes... the child was now on a rehab...

* is it the mother's fault? nope... the child has a free will... the child has two options: good and bad... the child can choose not to be involved with evil things and care for the mother... but the child also can choose the path of evil... it is the child's prerogative...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
And as to Job - well, all that suffering God let the Devil wreak on poor old Job with God's permission was clearly worth it and not bad at all because it was proving an abstract point - even if God does let you suffer terrible loss as long as you stay loyal to him then you'll come good eventually.

* well, you can put it that way...

"Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy."
James 5:11

* faith requires patience... wink

"And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ."
II Peter 1:5-8

* smile

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by peejayd
* the Flood was very much proven historically, geographically and scientifically...

Really? Not anywhere near the degree the Bible implies. The closest parallel researchers have found is a Sumerian flood - which was serious, but no where near the Biblical one. It wasn't even a civilisation killer. Theoretically it is believed since it became part of myth in that region the Jews later picked it up and assimilated it into their faith, making it all the more serious.

As to the rest - impossible to build a boat big enough in those days to contain two of every animal and enough food for them (unless it was a TARDIS) - In fact impossible to gather enough animals to begin with. Either the story is just that, a story, or it is way exaggerated in the Bible.



Did he really though? If God created humans as good creatures then, logically, they couldn't help but be good. However they aren't - the potential for good and bad is in them. Humans can be duel in nature. If he really created them to be good then he messed up - his first two went bad almost instantly (let alone the theories about Lilith.) Then Cain killed Abel. Then apparently people were so completely rotten he had to commit world wide genocide to clean them away.



So God is blindly idealistic and optimistic? He might not be all knowing, but he is really far less powerful then I thought. I mean even a parent who hopes their child will do well knows there is a chance that they wont.



It seems to me you are vastly depowering God. The difference here seems to be that people have far less power to influence there little creations. Doesn't matter what they think or intend the baby will grow. They have no power over it. At best they have educational power.

God, on the other hand, consciously was able to do things exactly as he wished. He had the power, he started from scratch. And of course the fact he made us in his image - if we accept that means spiritual image, then that says something about God's own good/bad ratio. If we are in his image, and we can be good or bad, then logically God would have the same choice, the same freedom.

Really the comparison between God and a pregnant mother does not work. Unless God merely chucked together things and hoped they would turn out good, but the Bible seems to imply he planned out everything - that he spoke what was in his heart, and it happened. Light, animals, man. Nothing was what he had not intended - and at some level evil and good were woven into it all.

Shakyamunison
^ A world flood has been disproved.

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
^ A world flood has been disproved.

True, as I said above the closest people have come up with was a flood in the Mesopotamian region, and that was no where near a world flood. I dare say, in comparison some of the inundations in Egypt and China floods were probably more serious.

The story - it can not be taken as true in what it says.

debbiejo
A contradictions....Who is the judge?
WHEN THE SON OF MAN SHALL COME IN HIS GLORY, AND ALL THE HOLY ANGELS WITH HIM-Mt 25:31.
THEN SHALL THE TREES OF THE WOOD SING OUT AT THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD, BECAUSE HE COMETH TO JUDGE THE EARTH-1 Chr 16:33.
THE LORD...HE COMETH TO JUDGE THE EARTH: WITH RIGHTEOUSNESS SHALL HE JUDGE THE WORLD, AND THE PEOPLE WITH EQUITY-Ps 98:9.
John Chapter Five is a pivotal chapter in regard to God's judgment of men, angels, the world, the living and the dead--everyone. Judgment has been placed in the hands of humanity's one righteous man, Jesus Christ


The Sheep on the right and the Goats to the left.

peejayd
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Did he really though? If God created humans as good creatures then, logically, they couldn't help but be good. However they aren't - the potential for good and bad is in them. Humans can be duel in nature.

* God created humans good... let's go back to a start, have you ever seen an infant born evil? nope, as the child grows, the child is good... what makes a child grow up evil is the environment, the persons around her, bad influences, etc...

* yes, there is a potential for good and evil because humans are given by God the gift of free will... we have the power to choose between good and evil...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
If he really created them to be good then he messed up - his first two went bad almost instantly (let alone the theories about Lilith.) Then Cain killed Abel. Then apparently people were so completely rotten he had to commit world wide genocide to clean them away.

* God did not messed up, it is His creatures who messed up... good creatures surrounded by good environment should not have to choose an evil path...

* God wants his people to be good, and only the household of Noah are the only ones left obeying God... the Bible says...

"Be not deceived: Evil companionships corrupt good morals."
I Corinthians 15:33

* Noah and his household are surrounded by evil people, God saves Noah from them, the Flood was an instrument of salvation for Noah and his household...

"That aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:"
I Peter 3:20

* the purpose of the Flood was to save Noah from evil...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
So God is blindly idealistic and optimistic? He might not be all knowing, but he is really far less powerful then I thought. I mean even a parent who hopes their child will do well knows there is a chance that they wont.

* God is almighty, but there are things which He cannot do and some He prefers not to tackle...

"Though the LORD be high, yet hath he respect unto the lowly: but the proud he knoweth afar off."
Psalms 138:6

* it does not mean that God is not powerful, it just proves that God is respectful even to the creatures lower than Him...

* there are good parents with bad children, consider that? not because the parents did not do their job as parents but the child's fault to choose an evil path...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
It seems to me you are vastly depowering God. The difference here seems to be that people have far less power to influence there little creations. Doesn't matter what they think or intend the baby will grow. They have no power over it. At best they have educational power.

* i'm not depowering God, i'm just giving the correct perception of God stated in the Bible and not according to traditions and inventions... and the God in the Bible is not omniscient, not omnipotent and not omnipresent... but the God in the Bible is still the Almighty because He is the Supreme Being that created everything and all things impossible for humans are possible for Him...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
God, on the other hand, consciously was able to do things exactly as he wished. He had the power, he started from scratch. And of course the fact he made us in his image - if we accept that means spiritual image, then that says something about God's own good/bad ratio. If we are in his image, and we can be good or bad, then logically God would have the same choice, the same freedom.

* God is beyond logic, God cannot lie and God cannot change Himself, He is God from eternity to eternity...

* i accept that we are created after God's image, so we must be good in nature but when we reach the time or age to know, distinguish and choose right from wrong, that's when the free will kicks in... we have the freedom to choose good over evil or otherwise...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Really the comparison between God and a pregnant mother does not work. Unless God merely chucked together things and hoped they would turn out good, but the Bible seems to imply he planned out everything - that he spoke what was in his heart, and it happened. Light, animals, man. Nothing was what he had not intended - and at some level evil and good were woven into it all.

* i did not compare a pregnant mother to God, i just gave an example of how someone would feel for his offspring, and it would be impertinent or rather absurd for a parent to hope for his child to be evil, of course every parent in their right mind will hope for his child to be good, nice and kind...

* evil is not part of God's plan, and all of God's plans are always good... i did not even read something like, "Let there be evil... and it was good" stick out tongue consider this, God does not want us to be remote-controlled robots and we are given the gift of free will, the power to choose between good and evil... why blame God for evil if the person himself is responsible of choosing it? confused

peejayd
Originally posted by debbiejo
A contradictions....Who is the judge?
WHEN THE SON OF MAN SHALL COME IN HIS GLORY, AND ALL THE HOLY ANGELS WITH HIM-Mt 25:31.
THEN SHALL THE TREES OF THE WOOD SING OUT AT THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD, BECAUSE HE COMETH TO JUDGE THE EARTH-1 Chr 16:33.
THE LORD...HE COMETH TO JUDGE THE EARTH: WITH RIGHTEOUSNESS SHALL HE JUDGE THE WORLD, AND THE PEOPLE WITH EQUITY-Ps 98:9.
John Chapter Five is a pivotal chapter in regard to God's judgment of men, angels, the world, the living and the dead--everyone. Judgment has been placed in the hands of humanity's one righteous man, Jesus Christ

The Sheep on the right and the Goats to the left.

* i agree that Christ is a judge but as i've said, Christ is not a judge and a lawyer at the same time... there are instances where Christ stands as a lawyer and the Father stands as a judge... there are other instances where Christ and the poeple of God stands as judges... wink

Jacky
I don’t like how it seems that Satan could never become good. People always say that no matter how bad we think we are God can forgive us, so why can’t he forgive Satan, right? I think if Satan became good and was really truly sorry for what he did things would be a lot easier. Isn’t it always said that one who has strayed from God and comes back to Him, usually comes back more faithful than ever before? Or are some things just unforgivable? And if there are, then people on Earth who do wrong things and commit a sing will have good reason to believe that their wrongs can unforgivable also. It is already an issue today, people believing that their sins are just too terrible so they don’t change their ways and come to God. That may not be the only reason they don’t come to God, but it definitely is an issue and has affected people’s thinking. I think we need more reasons for God’s doings. It would definitely help people who believe they can’t be forgiven.

Nellinator
I believe that God could forgive Satan. Of course, he won't have too because Satan won't ask for it. And since God knows this it is not an issue.

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Nellinator
I believe that God could forgive Satan. Of course, he won't have too because Satan won't ask for it. And since God knows this it is not an issue.

How does God know it? Does it derive from the "God knows how it is all going to end" - which seems to raise the whole "why bother with earth" - if it is meant to be a testing ground for our souls or something it is rather useless if God knows who is and who isn't going to repent.

And he knows why they aren't...

Besides - Satan isn't stupid. He would surely think "hey, I can be bad till the final hour and then ask for forgiveness. And then do it all over again." But then again the Bible doesn't give him such an option. It is as if Satan is locked into the role he must play.

usagi_yojimbo
Originally posted by Nellinator
I believe that God could forgive Satan. Of course, he won't have too because Satan won't ask for it. And since God knows this it is not an issue.

I've always thought it possible myself - however, I figure..God being God and all with all his abilities(controlling time, seeing the future, omnicience, omnipresence) would be able to tell that any apology given from Satan or his demons was not a genuine one.

I figure his rationale behind any apology given by them would kind of equate to the ol saying "fool me once - shame on you, fool me twice - shame on me.." or something along those lines.(except for the fact that God obviously could never be fooled)

I do think that it would make him truly happy to have all of his "sons" and "daughters" want to be with him though. Being a truly loving father as he is, and being a father myself - I'm sure Satan's rebellion against him, and the rebellion and rejection of his other children - grieves him greatly every day. More so than any human mind can imagine.

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
I've always thought it possible myself - however, I figure..God being God and all with all his abilities(controlling time, seeing the future, omnicience, omnipresence) would be able to tell that any apology given from Satan or his demons was not a genuine one.

Like every human who asks for forgiveness believes. Or will never sin again.

So either God accepts prayers for forgiveness of all kinds, or he picks through them and sends people to hell saying "you didn't really mean that" - which buggers the Christian claim of "but isn't it better to become Christian... just in case? I mean, you don't believe, but God believes in you."

peejayd
* however, it is not in Satan's character to ask God for forgiveness... wink

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by peejayd
* however, it is not in Satan's character to ask God for forgiveness... wink

Who defines his character?

xmarksthespot
The biased characterization of Satan of course being performed by Christians and the Bible.

peejayd
* yes, the Bible... but even if you try to see other mythologies and religions, the adversary of God (or any Supreme Being) will not ask for forgiveness... wink

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by peejayd
* yes, the Bible... but even if you try to see other mythologies and religions, the adversary of God (or any Supreme Being) will not ask for forgiveness... wink

But then few other religions have the Christian concept of forgiveness - one of Christianities selling points if I am not mistaken - an all loving God who simply asks for belief and the request for forgiveness, not earning it.

usagi_yojimbo
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Like every human who asks for forgiveness believes. Or will never sin again.

So either God accepts prayers for forgiveness of all kinds, or he picks through them and sends people to hell saying "you didn't really mean that" - which buggers the Christian claim of "but isn't it better to become Christian... just in case? I mean, you don't believe, but God believes in you."

Heh..Heh..Heh. Well I don't think it's a matter of God not being able to accept the forgiveness - but rather I believe its a matter of God knowing the outcome which will play about after administering such forgiveness, and the condition of the heart of the individual who's asking for it.

If you know someone will attempt to betray you after you've forgiven them, what would be the benefit of the forgiveness to the person or to yourself? They would both just be lying to themselves. And lying to himself, is not something that a loving God(not man) will do. Like all of his God's creations, Satan would need to have a "repentant" spirit in order to be forgiven - which is something that is impossible for him to do.

So to clarify -- Satan knows that God is no fool, and that God will sense the "unrepentant" intentions of his heart - so he will never ask for forgiveness, because he knows that God only grants forgiveness to those who have a humble and contrite heart, something that "pride" could never bring him to have.

Alliance
Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
Heh..Heh..Heh. Well I don't think it's a matter of God not being able to accept the forgiveness - but rather I believe its a matter of God knowing the outcome which will play about after administering such forgiveness, and the condition of the heart of the individual who's asking for it.

If god knows the future...then the future is already pre-determined.

Hence, you have no free will and god controls everything.

If god controls everything, you don't sin, god makes you sin, and there is nothing you can do about it.

So, your views are contradictory.

peejayd
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
But then few other religions have the Christian concept of forgiveness - one of Christianities selling points if I am not mistaken - an all loving God who simply asks for belief and the request for forgiveness, not earning it.

* got your point, bro, eventhough the God of the Bible is all-loving, He is not gullible and stupid, He is the Supreme Being... God knows the heart of every creature He created, and as far as the Bible tells us, Satan is way too much pre-occupied of evil things to think and ask God for forgiveness... so saying Satan will ask for forgiveness is very hypothetical... wink

debbiejo
How do YOU know what Satan thinks???

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by peejayd
* got your point, bro, eventhough the God of the Bible is all-loving, He is not gullible and stupid, He is the Supreme Being... God knows the heart of every creature He created, and as far as the Bible tells us, Satan is way too much pre-occupied of evil things to think and ask God for forgiveness... so saying Satan will ask for forgiveness is very hypothetical... wink


How convienent that Satan is the antithesis of God, even though God created Satan.....

Satan was spawned from God, so I find it difficult to grasp that such an evil being can spawn from a being of pure Love.

debbiejo
If god is part of all things, visible and invisible then satan is also god.

LFBC_Gir
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
How convienent that Satan is the antithesis of God, even though God created Satan.....

Satan was spawned from God, so I find it difficult to grasp that such an evil being can spawn from a being of pure Love.

This is true that a Being of pure Love created Satan, but He did not create a being of evil as you have so blatantly put it. Satan was created a Leader of the of the Angels, an "Archangel" as it is called. Perhaps the Angel in charge of the Worship of God. God did not create Lucifer (Satan before his fall) to make the choice of evil, for in this God would have went against his nature of creating things with free will. God wanted his creation to Love Him in return of His eternal Love, for this to be possible the created being MUST have free-will, the "evil" is not an essence, it was simply disobedience and pride. There is no such thing as "good" power, or essence or "evil" power or essence. We look at what Christians know is evil: sin. What is sin? It sure isn't an essence of someone, but it is a willing act of disobedience towards God. Satan made the choices he made because of his Pride. Most humans with power develop a sense of pride, likewise the same result happened to Lucifer and his pride caused him to have a greed for more power. This was his downfall in seeking after that Power and trying to take it from God. He deceived 1/3 of the angels and revolted against God. Did God know Lucifer was going to do this before He created him? Yes. Did God create Lucifer because God wanted Lucifer to rebel against Him? NO. That is where the distinction is made. Why did God do this? Because it is all part of His plan. I don't know the whole of His plan because I could never comprehend His thoughts.

debbiejo
The word "Sin" as used by Jewish Theologians which is the OT only means a short coming of ones self to a greater good, not a punishment by some Satan. The Jewish community does not believe in Satan. Doesn't that tell you something? They are the authors of the OT.

LFBC_Gir
Originally posted by debbiejo
How do YOU know what Satan thinks???


The Enemy (Satan) comes to kill steal and destroy. (John 10:10)

He is the ultimate deceiver (Rev 12:9). He Hates God, Hates the Angels that Follow God, Hates Christians, and Hates non-christians too, even those who worship him. If Satan loved, he would do everything in his power to prevent mankind from going to hell, however his intent is to destroy us all. If Satan loved satan-worshipers, he would correct them and Point their worship to God, so their lives might be spared. However this is not Satan. Satan hates all mankind because God loves all mankind. Satan wants to steal, kill and destroy that which God loves the most.

LFBC_Gir
The Jewish Theologians have Rejected Jesus as the Messiah! You can't take all they say into credit. Read the Gospel of Matthew and see all teh prophesies Jesus fulfilled and proved Himself to be the Messiah!

Secondly, Job 1:6 says: "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them." (NASB) Any Jewish theologian who teaches that Satan doesn't exist hasn't even read their own Bible

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by LFBC_Gir
The Enemy (Satan) comes to kill steal and destroy. (John 10:10)

He is the ultimate deceiver (Rev 12:9). He Hates God, Hates the Angels that Follow God, Hates Christians, and Hates non-christians too, even those who worship him. If Satan loved, he would do everything in his power to prevent mankind from going to hell, however his intent is to destroy us all. If Satan loved satan-worshipers, he would correct them and Point their worship to God, so their lives might be spared. However this is not Satan. Satan hates all mankind because God loves all mankind. Satan wants to steal, kill and destroy that which God loves the most.


yawn


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Lord Urizen
Originally posted by LFBC_Gir
The Jewish Theologians have Rejected Jesus as the Messiah! You can't take all they say into credit. Read the Gospel of Matthew and see all teh prophesies Jesus fulfilled and proved Himself to be the Messiah!

Secondly, Job 1:6 says: "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them." (NASB) Any Jewish theologian who teaches that Satan doesn't exist hasn't even read their own Bible

yawn


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