Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Pretty interesting, but some of those are reaching and others can't be counted as facts. As an addition to the list, the various feasts in which God commands the Israelites to partake correspond to the development of a fetus.

By the way:

*Braces himself.*

I'd suggest you do the same.

Just make sure you don't confuse trends and vague wordings with "fact."

in reference to number 2...the Bible clearly says the world rests on four pillars...and that it has four corners.

Originally posted by Alliance
Just make sure you don't confuse trends and vague wordings with "fact."

How do you mean?

Sorry, I need to refernce my posts better...I was reffering to

"10. Science expresses the universe in five terms: time, space, matter, power, and motion. Genesis 1:1,2 revealed such truths to the Hebrews in 1450 B.C.: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth . . . And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." The first thing God tells man is that He controls of all aspects of the universe."

1. Science does not express things in onyl five terms, and those five would not be the terms even if it did.

2. This whol passage is vague and I could do the smae thing you did with half the sentances in the world.

Oh, I see. No sorry is necessary.

I'd also like to add something to what Allience said about vagueness. It happens a lot through the Bible, and its not a very good argument to use to prove science.

As its been said, you can vaguely say something, which would be easy to apply to any kind of discovery - even though it doesn't actually prove anything.

After all, religion is opposite of science - where science looks for facts, bible is all about faith in something doesn;t require you to have evidence for.

You can't technically mix them together...

I think probably the most important one on that list are the health guidelines.

One also must remember, that some people have...misinterpreated Scripture in the past, such as when it is written that the "sun stood still" in the sky for Joshua. Thus, to teach that the Earth revolved around the sun was against the Bible.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
After all, religion is opposite of science - where science looks for facts, bible is all about faith in something doesn;t require you to have evidence for.

You can't technically mix them together...

From a religous zealots point of view though, you can mix the two when it benefits your argument and then utterly dismiss scientific fact and rely on "I have faith" when it doesn't. That's the wondeful catch of being a religious zealot.

Originally posted by Robtard
From a religous zealots point of view though, you can mix the two when it benefits your argument and then utterly dismiss scientific fact and rely on "I have faith" when it doesn't. That's the wondeful catch of being a religious zealot.
*Yawns.*

Or one could have the discernment to make the distinction...

Oh, hell, it doesn't matter.

DIE CHRISTIAN ZEALOTS WITH YOUR BIBLE AND STUFF

Originally posted by FeceMan
DIE CHRISTIAN ZEALOTS WITH YOUR BIBLE AND STUFF

Originally posted by Alliance
Sorry, I need to refernce my posts better...I was reffering to

"10. Science expresses the universe in five terms: time, space, matter, power, and motion. Genesis 1:1,2 revealed such truths to the Hebrews in 1450 B.C.: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth . . . And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." The first thing God tells man is that He controls of all aspects of the universe."

1. Science does not express things in onyl five terms, and those five would not be the terms even if it did.

2. This whol passage is vague and I could do the smae thing you did with half the sentances in the world. Sounds almost like E=mc squared....Or the ancients knew of the 4/5 powers that govern the earth. Time = fire or water (as change), space = air, matter = earth, motion = spirit/force, (or water again)
Spirit is only a newer addition in some beliefs..

Originally posted by Alliance
in reference to number 2...the Bible clearly says the world rests on four pillars...and that it has four corners. Yes 4 corners again........the 4 winds OR the 4 forces...Earth, Wind, Fire, Air.

Alas, I doubt there is any real scientia to gain from reading the Christian Bible....

No...no there is not.

I didn't mean to sound particularly anti-Christian.

You didn't to me.

Others might take it so....
But seriously, I hate indescriminately so.

Indiscriminate hate huh?

THAT sounds like a flaw to me.

*In a Jewish voice* "talk amongst yourselves...........

Originally posted by FeceMan
*Yawns.*

Or one could have the discernment to make the distinction...

Oh, hell, it doesn't matter.

DIE CHRISTIAN ZEALOTS WITH YOUR BIBLE AND STUFF

If you're bored, do not read what I write.

No, there's a difference, when you accept scientific fact as truth one moment because it supports your belief and then the next moment dismiss scientific fact because it contradicts your views, that is not being honest.

Oh Heaven, it does matter, you either accept the physical laws of the universe as being constant or you don't.

I never said anything close to that, I said it as being dishonest, not on the lines of being criminal.

Alliance:
How so?
I hate all equally.

Yes...blanket hate....erm....

I kid, I kid....

...

*Sighs dramatically*
What I meant was that I treat (or try to treat) everybody equally.

Originally posted by Robtard


Oh Heaven, it does matter, you either accept the physical laws of the universe as being constant or you don't.

But if you understand them, then your life will much more on a path that only YOU can control.ie..........creator of your own destiny.

I s'pose everybody tries to, but quits fairly quickly....

Yeah, that "singing stars" bit is pretty much...uh...

1. It's perfectly acceptable to interpret that as being figurative.
2. In Revelation, some of the "stars" referred to are actually angels.

So I'm going to go with "all the angels sang" versus "RADIO WAVES TALKING".

What are you implying?

That sometimes if people appear to not be tolerant of certian views...they may have had lengthy experiences with tolerance and have gotten sick of it after years.

You just met them post-decision.

Oh, okay....I thought you were somehow implying I was a lonely shut-in who never gets out....

no. not at all.

There are several mundane ways in which a prediction of the future can be fulfilled but this is my (and the Bible-writers) favourite:

Vagueness. The prophecy can be worded in such a way that people can interpret any outcome as a fulfillment. Nostradomus's prophecies are all of this type. Vagueness works particularly well when people are religiously motivated to believe the prophecies.

Taken from: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH110.html



-Vagueness. The phrase "things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." refers to something magical and supernatural. Interpreting it to refer to our current understanding of atoms is a huge leap of logic (by the way where in the Bible is this passage found?).



- Debunked: The Bible specifies the best time for circumcision. http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH135_1.html



-Debunked: The Bible says that the earth is unsupported. http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH132.html



-Debunked: The Bible says that the earth is round. http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH131.html



-Vagueness. For the ancients, lightning and light are two separate things. Without twisting anything, the passage refers to lightning talking which is pure superstition but is something that the ancients would have no trouble believing.



-Vagueness. The question: "Where is the way where light dwells?" is CLEARLY asking for direction and not the speed.



-Vagueness. The ancients are referring to actual stars singing and not radio waves. This is something that the ancients would have no trouble believing.



-You dont need to be divinely inspired to imagine that prior to creation, the only thing that exists is a "void" or a state of nothingness.



-You dont have to be divinely inspired or scientifically adept to understand wind patterns. In fact learning it is essential to be a sailor. Solomon must have learned it from his sea-faring neighbors, the Phoenicians.



-Vagueness. Science DOES NOT expresses the universe in five terms: time, space, matter, power, and motion. Also, selectively picking words and assigning interpretations to it does not constitute a DIVINELY FULFILLED prophecy.



-Debunked: Moses reveals that blood is the essence of life. http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH135_2.html



-Debunked: Behemoth, from the book of Job, was a dinosaur. http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH711.html



-Debunked: The Bible specifies good medical and hygienic practices. http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH135.html



-Vagueness. Here is the entire passage and related verses:

17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
17:32 Remember Lot's wife.
17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

If the passage about the two men in the field referred to daytime activities, it would have been stated close to verse 17:31. In fact, it could be interpreted that the phrases "in the day" and "in that night" describe only the passage adjacent to it. In other words, the phrase "in that night" have no bearing to subsequent verses like the "two men shall be in the field . . ." . In addition, slaves working in the fields at night is not unheard of.



-Debunked: The Bible specifies good medical and hygienic practices. http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CH/CH135.html

Originally posted by Templares
There are several mundane ways in which a prediction of the future can be fulfilled but this is my (and the Bible-writers) favourite:

Vagueness. The prophecy can be worded in such a way that people can interpret any outcome as a fulfillment. Nostradomus's prophecies are all of this type. Vagueness works particularly well when people are religiously motivated to believe the prophecies.


-Vagueness. Here is the entire passage and related verses:

17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
17:32 Remember Lot's wife.
17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

If the passage about the two men in the field referred to daytime activities, it would have been stated close to verse 17:31. In fact, it could be interpreted that the phrases "in the day" and "in that night" describe only the passage adjacent to it. In other words, the phrase "in that night" have no bearing to subsequent verses like the "two men shall be in the field . . ." . In addition, slaves working in the fields at night is not unheard of.





There ain't (excuse me, is not) anything vague about these prophecies:

Prophecies Concerning the Lord Jesus Christ

seed of a woman

descendant of Abraham

descendant of Isaac

descendant of Jacob

from the tribe of Judah

heir to the throne of David

anointed and eternal

born in Bethlehem

time for His birth

to be born of a virgin

slaughter of children

flight to Egypt

the way prepared

preceded by a forerunner

preceded by Elijah

declared the Son of God

Galilean ministry

speaks in parables

a prophet

to bind up the brokenhearted

rejected by His own people, the Jews

priest after the order of Melchizedek

triumphal entry

adored by infants

not believed

betrayed by a close friend

betrayed for thirty pieces of silver

accused by false witnesses

silent to accusations

spat on and struck

hated without reason

a sacrifice Who died for the world

crucified between two robbers

pierced through hands and feet

sneered and mocked

was reproached

prayer for His enemies

soldiers gambled for His clothing

forsaken by God

no bones broken

His side pierced

buried with the rich

to be resurrected

His ascension to God's right hand

The rest of this post (all the words in black) was copied from the link below.

http://www.christianarsenal.com/Apologetics/MessProphecies.htm

One of the amazing things about the Bible is the fulfilled prophecy that it contains. This is just one of the evidences of the supernatural origin of the Bible. Here is just a small example of the prophecies in the Bible about Jesus. There are many prophecies concerning Jesus on the Old Testament that were fulfilled in the New Testament. No other book contains prophecy like the Bible. The Koran contains one prophecy that is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Mohammed said that he would return to Mecca and he did. The book of Mormon contains some prophecy, however some of it was plagiarized from the Bible by Joseph Smith and the rest of it was written by Joseph Smith after the fact. The Bible stands alone in this area!

Think about this.... the statistical probability of predicting one event is one chance in two. Either the event will happen or it will not. When you add one more prediction, the person would have a one in four chance of being right on both predictions. The statistical odds against someone predicting 35 events and being 100% correct on all 35 is 1 to 34,359,738,368. That is a 36 billion, 359 million, 738 thousand, 368 to 1 against some one making 35 predictions and all of them coming true. Notice what I am saying here, not 35 out of hundreds but 35 out of 35! That is nothing short of a miracle.
This is evidence that those who were writing the Bible had a source of information far beyond the realm of human knowledge. It seems to me that they needed input from someone who knew the future, that could control people, nations, time and space, and who could raise the dead. The only reasonable explanation I can come up with is that God inspired the Bible. Any other explanation just does not make sense. (By the way there are over 300 fulfilled prophecies in the O.T..... figure the odds on that!)

Yes. We did notice that you have a capy and pasting problem.

Though, you, like the authors of those passages...have a perception issue.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive

One of the amazing things about the Bible is the fulfilled prophecy that it contains. This is just one of the evidences of the supernatural origin of the Bible. Here is just a small example of the prophecies in the Bible about Jesus. There are many prophecies concerning Jesus on the Old Testament that were fulfilled in the New Testament. No other book contains prophecy like the Bible. The Koran contains one prophecy that is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Mohammed said that he would return to Mecca and he did. The book of Mormon contains some prophecy, however some of it was plagiarized from the Bible by Joseph Smith and the rest of it was written by Joseph Smith after the fact. The Bible stands alone in this area!

Think about this.... the statistical probability of predicting one event is one chance in two. Either the event will happen or it will not. When you add one more prediction, the person would have a one in four chance of being right on both predictions. The statistical odds against someone predicting 35 events and being 100% correct on all 35 is 1 to 34,359,738,368. That is a 36 billion, 359 million, 738 thousand, 368 to 1 against some one making 35 predictions and all of them coming true. Notice what I am saying here, not 35 out of hundreds but 35 out of 35! That is nothing short of a miracle.
This is evidence that those who were writing the Bible had a source of information far beyond the realm of human knowledge. It seems to me that they needed input from someone who knew the future, that could control people, nations, time and space, and who could raise the dead. The only reasonable explanation I can come up with is that God inspired the Bible. Any other explanation just does not make sense. (By the way there are over 300 fulfilled prophecies in the O.T..... figure the odds on that!)

The Old Testament never names Jesus by name, it only speaks of a Messiah, so in reality, how hard would it be for a man any man to just say "Hey, it's me, I'm the Messiah." The New Testament says that Jesus will return right? How hard would it be for youself or anyone else to claim to be Jesus come back? Also, the New Testament was written close to 400 years after Jesus died, so anything written about Jesus is not first hand or eyewitness experience; how hard would it be to embellish a story, especially a 400 year old story? I.E., Jesus poured a cup of wine gets turned into Jesus turned water to wine 400 years later.

To JIA:

I raise you to 205 unfulfilled prophecies in the Bible: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/proph/long.html

*excerpt*

Malachi

The gospel of Mark claims that John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecy given in Malachi. But the Malachi prophecy says that God will send Elijah before "the great and dreadful day of the LORD" in which the world will be consumed by fire. Yet John the Baptist flatly denied that he was Elijah (Elias) in John 1:21 and the earth was not destroyed after John's appearance. 3:1, 4:1, 5

Originally posted by Templares
To JIA:

I raise you to 205 unfulfilled prophecies in the Bible: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/proph/long.html

*excerpt*

Malachi

The gospel of Mark claims that John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecy given in Malachi. But the Malachi prophecy says that God will send Elijah before "the great and dreadful day of the LORD" in which the world will be consumed by fire. Yet John the Baptist flatly denied that he was Elijah (Elias) in John 1:21 and the earth was not destroyed after John's appearance. 3:1, 4:1, 5

Response pending Temp.

So this means one should take Malachi's prophecy figuratively not literally? Which prophecies should be taken literally?

Originally posted by Templares
To JIA:

I raise you to 205 unfulfilled prophecies in the Bible: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/proph/long.html

*excerpt*

Malachi

The gospel of Mark claims that John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecy given in Malachi. But the Malachi prophecy says that God will send Elijah before "the great and dreadful day of the LORD" in which the world will be consumed by fire. Yet John the Baptist flatly denied that he was Elijah (Elias) in John 1:21 and the earth was not destroyed after John's appearance. 3:1, 4:1, 5

Furthermore, Temp., God's "before" and our before in reference to God consuming the world with fire are on two totally different timetables. I know from experience and from studying the Word of God that God--and He is so cool for this--does everything according to His plan. God is strategic, careful, precise, deliberate, and calculated in all that He does. We are not privy to when God is about to do the things that He does, we just sit back and wait. For example God promised Noah that He would bring floodwaters. I don't believe that God gave Noah a time though. God prophesied for centuries that He would send His Son Jesus, but I don't recall God giving a timetable per se (there may have been one I just don't recall offhand). Finally, God has promised to send Jesus back not to die this time but to take His church out of here prior to the Tribulation that will come upon the world. God's wrath against sin will be administered on the world. It is amazing that even after all this people will still not repent of their immoral, godless, sinful lives. At the time that the Lord Jesus walked the earth He admitted that neither the angels nor He knew the time of His retrurn, but the Father only. I leave you all with this verse of Scripture:

Acts 1:7
And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority .

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive


There ain't (excuse me, is not) anything vague about these prophecies:

Prophecies Concerning the Lord Jesus Christ

seed of a woman

descendant of Abraham

descendant of Isaac

descendant of Jacob

from the tribe of Judah

heir to the throne of David

anointed and eternal

born in Bethlehem

time for His birth

to be born of a virgin

slaughter of children

flight to Egypt

the way prepared

preceded by a forerunner

preceded by Elijah

declared the Son of God

Galilean ministry

speaks in parables

a prophet

to bind up the brokenhearted

rejected by His own people, the Jews

priest after the order of Melchizedek

triumphal entry

adored by infants

not believed

betrayed by a close friend

betrayed for thirty pieces of silver

accused by false witnesses

silent to accusations

spat on and struck

hated without reason

a sacrifice Who died for the world

crucified between two robbers

pierced through hands and feet

sneered and mocked

was reproached

prayer for His enemies

soldiers gambled for His clothing

forsaken by God

no bones broken

His side pierced

buried with the rich

to be resurrected

His ascension to God's right hand



First of all - how is it prophecy to write about something... after it has happened?

Second of all - We only have the Bible's word a lot of this stuff happened, with no other corroborative evidence. It is easy to predict something you are making up.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
First of all - how is it prophecy to write about something... after it has happened?

Second of all - We only have the Bible's word a lot of this stuff happened, with no other corroborative evidence. It is easy to predict something you are making up.

Are you taking prozac? (I ask this in good Christian love and concern). None of the things that were written in the Old Testament concerning Jesus Christ had happened yet.

I read through the first three of that "Skeptic's" site and closed the page. (Thank goodness that God saying that Adam would die meant RIGHT THEN AND THERE. Proof that the Bible's wrong!)
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
First of all - how is it prophecy to write about something... after it has happened?
The prophecies were written in the OT.

Originally posted by FeceMan
I read through the first three of that "Skeptic's" site and closed the page, laughing. (Thank goodness that God saying that Adam would die meant RIGHT THEN AND THERE. Proof that the Bible's wrong!)

The prophecies were written in the OT.

Me too.



Actually Adam and Eve did die the moment that they disobeyed God's Word. They died "spiritually in their trespass or sin." Sin separates us from the life and glory of God. That is why Adam and Eve were suddenly aware that they were naked. The had lost or fallen short of the glory of God. Scholars hold that Adam and Eve were clothed in a portion of God's glory (a tangible substance).

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Are you taking prozac? (I ask this in good Christian love and concern). None of the things that were written in the Old Testament concerning Jesus Christ had happened yet.



I think you are both missing the path I was going down - you have these "prophecies" claiming what is going to happen in the future - then you have the NT confirming them apparently a few years after they happened (since the Gospels weren't written over night)

Now, we only have the Bible's word any of that actually happened the way it said it did... do you see where I am going? And it is easy to confirm a prophecy after after the fact.

Hell, looks at Nostradamus, people can fit his predictions in with nigh on everything.

Delightfully enough most of those listed are vague - don't get into names of specific dates or the like. Very easy to then years later go "Ah yes, clearly that is what that is talking about! prophecy... confirmed!"

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
I think you are both missing The path I was going down - you have these "prophecies" claiming what is going to happen in The future - then you have The NT confirming them apparently a few years after they happened (since The Gospels weren't written over night)

Now, we only have The Bible's word any of that actually happened The way it said it did... do you see where I am going? And it is easy to confirm a prophecy after after The fact.

Hell, looks at Nostradamus, people can fit his predictions in with nigh on everything.

Delightfully enough most of those listed are vague - don't get into names of specific dates or The like. Very easy to then years later go "Ah yes, clearly that is what that is talking about! prophecy... confirmed!"


The term I've heard used is post-diction.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The term I've heard used is post-diction.

Yes, that would be it exactly.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
I think you are both missing the path I was going down - you have these "prophecies" claiming what is going to happen in the future - then you have the NT confirming them apparently a few years after they happened (since the Gospels weren't written over night)

Now, we only have the Bible's word any of that actually happened the way it said it did... do you see where I am going? And it is easy to confirm a prophecy after after the fact.

Hell, looks at Nostradamus, people can fit his predictions in with nigh on everything.

Delightfully enough most of those listed are vague - don't get into names of specific dates or the like. Very easy to then years later go "Ah yes, clearly that is what that is talking about! prophecy... confirmed!"

Answer me this Imperial_Samura: how do you know for certain that you are your mother's child? Things that make you go hmm. The only "so-called" proof that you have is a birth certificate (which by the way could have been falsified), perhaps genetic similarities between you and your mother (which could simply be random chance occurrence), or finally, a maternity test checking DNA (again, how do you know that the tester told you the truth?).

Ahhhh, I see, you really don't know do you? You are going by what people have been telling you your whole life on this issue. But you don't really know who your mother is. Someone maybe lying to you. Although the possibilities are slim that your mother, your relatives, the doctor who delivered you, the nurses and other staff, and anyone else present at your birth are deceiving you, the possibility still exists.

Don't you see the futility and absurdity in applying this same logic to Bible prophecy? I do.

Originally posted by Robtard
The Old Testament never names Jesus by name, it only speaks of a Messiah, so in reality, how hard would it be for a man any man to just say "Hey, it's me, I'm the Messiah." The New Testament says that Jesus will return right? How hard would it be for youself or anyone else to claim to be Jesus come back? Also, the New Testament was written close to 400 years after Jesus died, so anything written about Jesus is not first hand or eyewitness experience; how hard would it be to embellish a story, especially a 400 year old story? I.E., Jesus poured a cup of wine gets turned into Jesus turned water to wine 400 years later.

Where...in the world...did you get your information from? There isn't one Book in the New Testament that was written 400 years after Jesus died. The Book of Revelation was written as early as 81-96 A.D.. The Book of Thessalonians was written in A.D. 51. The Lord Jesus did tell His disciples,

John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

The Holy Spirit breathed His Word into/through the various writers, and brought back to their remembrance the details of Jesus' ministry. There was no embellishment because God gave the inspiration for what was written.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Answer me this Imperial_Samura: how do you know for certain that you are your mother's child? Things that make you go hmm. The only "so-called" proof that you have is a birth certificate (which by the way could have been falsified), perhaps genetic similarities between you and your mother (which could simply be random chance occurrence), or finally, a maternity test checking DNA (again, how do you know that the tester told you the truth?).

Uh huh. So this some how invalidates my reasonable questioning? Taking a reasonably certain process which a person can logically assume to be true, and making it absurd to add validity to taking a reasonably uncertain process that one lacks reasonable proof to logically think true.



How do I know my mother is my mother? HOW INDEED!

.............. HOW ABOUT THE ABUNDANCE OF PROOF? Worth anything to yah?

Birth Certificate: Legal document.
Photos: Me less then a day old being held by my mother in the hospital.
Family Friend: A nurse who my mother has known for a long, long time who was working the day I was born, and talks about what I looked like five minutes after birth.
Doctor: I come from a large family, he has delivered me and all my brothers and sisters.
Blood type: Fits in with what it should be.
Compatable Organ Donar: That is, if I needed to donate an organ to one of my family it would be compatable, as most biologically related organs are.

Now, unless you could come up with some plausible theory as to why dozens of people are conspirering to make me think I am the child of someone who isn't my parent them I am going to accept the proof and say I am actually my mothers son.



No, I don't see the absurdidty. The only absurdity here is your odd argument. I ask how can you know, since there is no actual claim other then that in a book confirming prophacy retrocativly and you respond by saying "well then I guess you can't prove anything, even when there is plenty of evidence something is true."

And ultimatly that is the point - any claim can be tested, and the quality of evidence will either validate it or invalidate it. I trust my mother is telling the truth when she says I am here son, and there is a mass of evidence supporting this. I question Biblical prophacy because there are inconsistancies, vagueness and lack of proof. Don't imply that Biblical claims are somehow special or should be excluded from rational consideration. Ultimatly I think they should be measured and judged in the same fashion as any other claim, and if the evidence doesn't validate them then they aren't true.

Remember the old ""Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof."

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Uh huh. So this some how invalidates my reasonable questioning? Taking a reasonably certain process which a person can logically assume to be true, and making it absurd to add validity to taking a reasonably uncertain process that one lacks reasonable proof to logically think true.



How do I know my mother is my mother? HOW INDEED!

.............. HOW ABOUT THE ABUNDANCE OF PROOF? Worth anything to yah?

Birth Certificate: Legal document.
Photos: Me less then a day old being held by my mother in the hospital.
Family Friend: A nurse who my mother has known for a long, long time who was working the day I was born, and talks about what I looked like five minutes after birth.
Doctor: I come from a large family, he has delivered me and all my brothers and sisters.
Blood type: Fits in with what it should be.
Compatable Organ Donar: That is, if I needed to donate an organ to one of my family it would be compatable, as most biologically related organs are.

Now, unless you could come up with some plausible theory as to why dozens of people are conspirering to make me think I am the child of someone who isn't my parent them I am going to accept the proof and say I am actually my mothers son.



No, I don't see the absurdidty. The only absurdity here is your odd argument. I ask how can you know, since there is no actual claim other then that in a book confirming prophacy retrocativly and you respond by saying "well then I guess you can't prove anything, even when there is plenty of evidence something is true."

And ultimatly that is the point - any claim can be tested, and the quality of evidence will either validate it or invalidate it. I trust my mother is telling the truth when she says I am here son, and there is a mass of evidence supporting this. I question Biblical prophacy because there are inconsistancies, vagueness and lack of proof. Don't imply that Biblical claims are somehow special or should be excluded from rational consideration. Ultimatly I think they should be measured and judged in the same fashion as any other claim, and if the evidence doesn't validate them then they aren't true.

Remember the old ""Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof."

You haven't heard a word I said. Here is what I propounded:

how do you know for certain that you are your mother's child? Things that make you go hmm. The only "so-called" proof that you have is a birth certificate (which by the way could have been falsified), perhaps genetic similarities between you and your mother (which could simply be random chance occurrence), or finally, a maternity test checking DNA (again, how do you know that the tester told you the truth?).

Ahhhh, I see, you really don't know do you? You are going by what people have been telling you your whole life on this issue. But you don't really know who your mother is. Someone maybe lying to you. Although the possibilities are slim that your mother, your relatives, the doctor who delivered you, the nurses and other staff, and anyone else present at your birth are deceiving you, the possibility still exists.

The possibility exists that we are all just brains in a jar imagining all of this. Fact of the matter is that the evidence points otherwise.

There is an important disctinction between the merely possible, and the reasonable. Lacking any evidence to support it at all, what you just postulated, JIA, is completely unreasonable.

You have not changed the basic point that evidence is required.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I think I may have asked the wrong person that question. Shak, do you think before you speak? You seem a tad bit impetuous. I can tell by your responses to my posts, you don't even read them and respond to them (based on what I write) most of the time. Instead, your only purpose seems to be to belittle what I write instead of intelligently considering what I wrote and then carefully crafting a good, sensible (and most importantly pertinent) response to it like most of the other forum members.

I call it like I see it.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
You haven't heard a word I said. Here is what I propounded:

how do you know for certain that you are your mother's child? Things that make you go hmm. The only "so-called" proof that you have is a birth certificate (which by the way could have been falsified), perhaps genetic similarities between you and your mother (which could simply be random chance occurrence), or finally, a maternity test checking DNA (again, how do you know that the tester told you the truth?).

Ahhhh, I see, you really don't know do you? You are going by what people have been telling you your whole life on this issue. But you don't really know who your mother is. Someone maybe lying to you. Although the possibilities are slim that your mother, your relatives, the doctor who delivered you, the nurses and other staff, and anyone else present at your birth are deceiving you, the possibility still exists.


Oh honestly. Ushgarak is completely correct:



For you see it is you that are failing to listen JIA. You are somehow claiming that solid supporting evidence does not necessarily make something any more true then some ancient story with no corroborative evidence at all. It just doesn't work that way. Not. At. All.

As I said - I have evidence, plenty of it, that my belief in the claim I am my mothers son. Scientifically verifiable evidence. So unless you have some bizarre conspiracy theory as to why, as I said, dozens of people are lying to me about my heritage, then that evidence leads me to a logical, reasonable and accurate truth. Because you see - evidence validates theories and claims. You tack at the moment to go all "but you can't really know because everyone might be lying" is pointless, and doesn't work.

Chance, minor probability exists - certainly, but when evidence does not support such claims then that is not the answer.

Originally posted by FeceMan
Yes, I do realize this. However, in Christ's life, many of the prophecies were clearly about him. Granted, it still requires a measure of faith.


Only a measure? First of all there is reasonable doubt Jesus existed at all, and if he did that anything can be attributed to him as claimed. What proof is there, other then the Bible, that Jesus came about due to an immaculate conception? Or that his death was as they said it was? Or what he said? None. At all.

And as someone above posted there are prophesies the Messiah was meant to fulfill as well, but didn't.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Only a measure? First of all there is reasonable doubt Jesus existed at all, and if he did did anything they attribute to him. What proof, other then the Bible, that Jesus came about due to an immaculate conception? Or that his death was as they said it was? Or what he said? None. At all.

And as someone above posted there are prophesies the Messiah was meant to fulfill as well, but didn't.

Care to be more specific about the prophecies that you assert that Christ has not yet fulfilled. If it is a prophecy that is still yet to be fulfilled (like Jesus' return) of course He has not fulfilled it yet.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Care to be more specific about the prophecies that you assert that Christ has not yet fulfilled. If it is a prophecy that is still yet to be fulfilled (like Jesus' return) of course He has not fulfilled it yet.

Nor will he ever. Remember that when you are an old man facing death.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Taking expired medication?

Those are the prophecies you asked me about. Care to debunk the fact they were not completed? And the fact Templares is correct - they were not said to happen on Christ's second coming, they were meant to be fulfilled first time round.

Care to explain why they weren't fulfilled?

Or maybe it was because the authors who documented the other, supposedly fulfilled prophesies decided to leave alone the ones that were to hard to lie about? Or maybe it was to do with the fact they were separating the Jews from the Christians at that point?

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Those are the prophecies you asked me about. Care to debunk the fact they were not completed? And the fact Templares is correct - they were not said to happen on Christ's second coming, they were meant to be fulfilled first time round.

Care to explain why they weren't fulfilled?

Or maybe it was because the authors who documented the other, supposedly fulfilled prophesies decided to leave alone the ones that were to hard to lie about? Or maybe it was to do with the fact they were separating the Jews from the Christians at that point?

Here is what I told your boy Templares:

COLOR=darkblue]Furthermore, Temp., God's "before" and our before in reference to God consuming the world with fire are on two totally different timetables. I know from experience and from studying the Word of God that God--and He is so cool for this--does everything according to His plan. God is strategic, careful, precise, deliberate, and calculated in all that He does. We are not privy to when God is about to do the things that He does, we just sit back and wait. For example God promised Noah that He would bring floodwaters. I don't believe that God gave Noah a time though. God prophesied for centuries that He would send His Son Jesus, but I don't recall God giving a timetable per se (there may have been one I just don't recall offhand). Finally, God has promised to send Jesus back not to die this time but to take His church out of here prior to the Tribulation that will come upon the world. God's wrath against sin will be administered on the world. It is amazing that even after all this people will still not repent of their immoral, godless, sinful lives. At the time that the Lord Jesus walked the earth He admitted that neither the angels nor He knew the time of His retrurn, but the Father only. I leave you all with this verse of Scripture:

Acts 1:7
And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority .

The point is neither one of you is born again; therefore, you don't know what the spiritual import of the Bible is. You know what the Bible says but you don't know what it means and how it relates to other Scriptures in terms of fulfillment. I would wager that you and Templares are not saved, therefore you will never be able to understand the Bible. But to answer your question more pointedly God knows when all of the prophecies will be fulfilled and they will be fulfilled if they haven't been already. I have not read Templares post or verified any of the Scripture references that he posted.

So basically the things that may or may not have occurred are solid proof for the prophesies, but the prophesies that have not been fulfilled don't disprove it because God doesn't work to a set time table?

Jesus, if you believe, wont be returning till the second coming. And the Bible is quite clear on what that will be like. None of the prophesies God has yet to fulfill would be workable in that time frame.

So what are they? One's God simply decided not to fulfill? Or is it simply because no one came to fulfill them? Are they unfulfillable?

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
So basically the things that may or may not have occurred are solid proof for the prophesies, but the prophesies that have not been fulfilled don't disprove it because God doesn't work to a set time table?

Jesus, if you believe, wont be returning till the second coming. And the Bible is quite clear on what that will be like. None of the prophesies God has yet to fulfill would be workable in that time frame.

So what are they? One's God simply decided not to fulfill? Or is it simply because no one came to fulfill them? Are they unfulfillable?

Once again (cocks head and shakes finger at you) grasshopper (just funnin') you are close to understanding my point of view, but your knowledge of the Bible is insufficient. The Lord Jesus Christ will return prior to His second advent to catch away His church before God's wrath is administered. Once we are gone all of the events in the Book of Revelation will start to come to fruition and unfold. We will be in Heaven at the marriage supper of the Lamb (Jesus Christ) though. I'll be checking out my mansion and other parts of Heaven. I will going into God's holy throne room and see God face to face. I think I will break down for joy after finally seeing with my eyes what I have been telling people and hearing for years as well as reading about for so long. I can't wait!

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Once again (cocks head and shakes finger at you) grasshopper (just funnin') you are close to understanding my point of view, but your knowledge of the Bible is insufficient. The Lord Jesus Christ will return prior to His second advent to catch away His church before God's wrath is administered. Once we are gone all of the events in the Book of Revelation will start to come to fruition and unfold. We will be in Heaven at the marriage supper of the Lamb (Jesus Christ) though. I'll be checking out my mansion and other parts of Heaven. I will going into God's holy throne room and see God face to face. I think I will break down for joy after finally seeing with my eyes what I have been telling people and hearing for years as well as reading about for so long. I can't wait!

That seems to be... different from the view held by other Christians as to the the progression of events in Revelations.

And besides, if Jesus comes back and all nations become good and all weapons are cast aside and "he will then perfect the entire world to serve God...", well, it is hard to believe that the End of Times would even occur then, wouldn't it? Those prophesy listed by Templares do not seem to suggest Jesus is going to swoop in, collect the Holy and then get the hell out of Dodge. No, they seem to be... far more permanent.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
That seems to be... different from the view held by other Christians as to the the progression of events in Revelations.

And besides, if Jesus comes back and all nations become good and all weapons are cast aside and "he will then perfect the entire world to serve God...", well, it is hard to believe that the End of Times would even occur then, wouldn't it? Those prophesy listed by Templares do not seem to suggest Jesus is going to swoop in, collect the Holy and then get the hell out of Dodge. No, they seem to be... far more permanent.

I gave you snippets grasshopper, snippets. We are going to return to this planet after some of the events described in Revelation take place. Read Revelation 19:11. We will follow Jesus on horses (the Heavenly kind). Lord Jesus will destroy all of His enemies with Word of God proceeding from His mouth as a sharp sword. Then we will live and reign with Jesus for a thousand years from Jerusalem. satan will be cast into the bottomless pit. Then after the thousand years satan will be released to go out and deceive the nations once more. He actually manages to muster a large army that will come surround Jerusalem. Fire will come down from God out of Heaven and consume all of them. Then judgment will ensue.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I gave you snippets grasshopper, snippets. We are going to return to this planet after some of the events described in Revelation take place. Read Revelation 19:11. We will follow Jesus on horses (the Heavenly kind). Lord Jesus will destroy all of His enemies with Word of God proceeding from His mouth as a sharp sword. Then we will live and reign with Jesus for a thousand years from Jerusalem. satan will be cast into the bottomless pit. Then after the thousand years satan will be released to go out and deceive the nations once more. He actually manages to muster a large army that will come surround Jerusalem. Fire will come down from God out of Heaven and consume all of them. Then judgment will ensue.

Uh huh. So Jesus will be going from the love all/turn the other cheek guy to a warrior messiah, wiping out all those who aren't saved?

And we don't get to go to heaven anyway? We have to come back to an earth blasted by revelations and live here for a 1000 years? And even if that were the case, most of Templares examples still don't fit.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Uh huh. So Jesus will be going from the love all/turn the other cheek guy to a warrior messiah, wiping out all those who aren't saved?

And we don't get to go to heaven anyway? We have to come back to an earth blasted by revelations and live here for a 1000 years? And even if that were the case, most of Templares examples still don't fit.

No it will not happen the way that you described. You are the only one who gives my mind a mental work out. I have been bench pressing 1000 lbs all day (mentally) and then you come along after I am taxed mentally and start asking twenty questions (almost like a child). It is harder for me to answer a child's questions because they seem endless. Just when I think that I am done I get hit with another one. Anyhoo, Samura if you have not received Christ as your personal Lord and Savior by the time He catches away His church, then you will be left behind. Have you heard of the movie "Left Behind?" It is based on the this event in the Bible. Once the church is gone a world leader will arise who will bring peace for 3 1/2 years. After that this world leader (I think it is the Pope) will break his covenant (I believe with the Jews), set up his throne in the temple claiming to personally be God. If you do not accept his mark in your forehead you (and others that do not have his mark) will not be able to buy or sell and you will be beheaded. After a total of seven years Jesus Christ will return and His church with Him. I already told you the rest in another post.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I gave you snippets grasshopper, snippets. We are going to return to this planet after some of the events described in Revelation take place. Read Revelation 19:11. We will follow Jesus on horses (the Heavenly kind). Lord Jesus will destroy all of His enemies with Word of God proceeding from His mouth as a sharp sword. Then we will live and reign with Jesus for a thousand years from Jerusalem. satan will be cast into the bottomless pit. Then after the thousand years satan will be released to go out and deceive the nations once more. He actually manages to muster a large army that will come surround Jerusalem. Fire will come down from God out of Heaven and consume all of them. Then judgment will ensue.

Heavenly horses, sharp as a sword words and a thousand year Reich? Oh me, oh my... What I find really interesting though, after this 1000 years of living with Jesus, Satan is released (have to wonder why God would let him out of jail?), is allowed by God to gather an army no less and the final conflict ensues? A.K.A. Armageddon, the Norse mythos has a similar story, it's called Ragnarok.

Originally posted by Robtard
Satan is released (have to wonder why God would let him out of jail?)
Remember when I kept talking about God being just?

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive

Acts 1:7
And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority .

The point is neither one of you is born again; therefore, you don't know what the spiritual import of the Bible is. You know what the Bible says but you don't know what it means and how it relates to other Scriptures in terms of fulfillment. I would wager that you and Templares are not saved, THEREFORE YOU WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND THE BIBLE . But to answer your question more pointedly God knows when all of the prophecies will be fulfilled and they will be fulfilled if they haven't been already. I have not read Templares post or verified any of the Scripture references that he posted.

Or youre just DODGING the fact that Jesus DID NOT FULFILL the roles of a Messiah as prophecied in the Bible. Objectively speaking, given the fact that the Old Testament specifically the prophecies concerning the Messiah is a product of Judaism, i would certainly consider the Jews the HIGHER AUTHORITY, in all this Messiah crap-iola. And according to them, Jesus FAILED the criteria.

Originally posted by Templares
Or youre just DODGING the fact that Jesus DID NOT FULFILL the roles of a Messiah as prophecied in the Bible. Objectively speaking, given the fact that the Old Testament specifically the prophecies concerning the Messiah is a product of Judaism, i would certainly consider the Jews the HIGHER AUTHORITY, in all this Messiah crap-iola. And according to them, Jesus FAILED the criteria. I posted something for you in this thread: What Profit Is It To Gain The Whole World But...

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I gave you snippets grasshopper, snippets. We are going to return to this planet after some of the events described in Revelation take place. Read Revelation 19:11. We will follow Jesus on horses (the Heavenly kind). Lord Jesus will destroy all of His enemies with Word of God proceeding from His mouth as a sharp sword. Then we will live and reign with Jesus for a thousand years from Jerusalem. satan will be cast into the bottomless pit. Then after the thousand years satan will be released to go out and deceive the nations once more. He actually manages to muster a large army that will come surround Jerusalem. Fire will come down from God out of Heaven and consume all of them. Then judgment will ensue.

This will never come to pass. You will never see this in your life time, or any other life time.

Well considering the planet will not even be here in a few thousand years because of asteroids.

Originally posted by ThePittman
Well considering the planet will not even be here in a few thousand years because of asteroids.

There is a higher chance of asteroids then Revelations.

Originally posted by Templares
Or youre just DODGING the fact that Jesus DID NOT FULFILL the roles of a Messiah as prophecied in the Bible. Objectively speaking, given the fact that the Old Testament specifically the prophecies concerning the Messiah is a product of Judaism, i would certainly consider the Jews the HIGHER AUTHORITY, in all this Messiah crap-iola. And according to them, Jesus FAILED the criteria.

Dude, those Jews do not know what they are talking about, even if it is their book...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
There is a higher chance of asteroids then Revelations.

Not to mention mega-volcanoes, mega-tsunamis, mognetic pole shifts, and methane bubbles.

If you claim that scientific facts can be found in the Bible, then one would think that all facts found in the Bible should be scientifically correct.

Originally posted by Alliance
Not to mention mega-volcanoes, mega-tsunamis, mognetic pole shifts, and methane bubbles. Freaked me out when I found out Yellowstone was a mega volcano