Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

* okay, so for us to be sure if we really are "christians" as we claim to be, i believe that True Christians live a life according to the Bible (ATB) and to the teachings and doctrines of Christ...

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Matthew 7:21-23

* the Scriptures tells us that not every one who says, "Lord, Lord", shall enter the kingdom of heaven...

* so how come i heard someone said that all we need is Jesus + Bible = Christian?

"And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that even for a whole year they were gathered together with the church, and taught much people, and that the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch."
The Acts 11:26

* let us remember that the early Christians were taught by the word of God... it's not as simple as Jesus + Bible = Christian... nope, it's not like that at all...

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
k....


Christianity has changed, you can not be religous and get into Heaven now

Oh, am I behind the times again?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Oh, am I behind the times again?

Yes, Christianity is nice now, no more burning on Stakes, maybe God's trying to speed things up

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
Yes, Christianity is nice now, no more burning on Stakes, maybe God's trying to speed things up

You must be new here.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You must be new here.

Nahh, you're the Buddhist that takes calling God a He Offencively. I know plenty

Originally posted by peejayd
Words.
Christ is saying that we are not judged by our works but whether God knows us by our place in the Book of Life.

...Duh.

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
Nahh, you're the Buddhist that takes calling God a He Offencively. I know plenty

I know, and that made it funnier.

Originally posted by peejayd
* i somehow agree with your posts... but my intention of bringing up the phrase, "True Christian" was because of other beliefs that being a Christian is as simple as they claim...

* the Christians stated in the Bible are blatantly different from what the "christians" nowadays... do you agree?

I don't know, I'm a Buddhist.

* oh...

well the christians in the bible had a lot more scripture and many different ideas than the ones today. hell, a lot of em didn't even believe christ was the messiah. the crusades and genocide by catholic and orthodox christians got rid of those invonvenient cathars, gnostics, koptics, and arians (the followers of pope arius, not the precursers to the hindus or the followers of the third reich). by you definition, every christian outisde of a few isolated populations in africa, the middle east, and persia are going to hell.

Originally posted by FeceMan
Christ is saying that we are not judged by our works but whether God knows us by our place in the Book of Life.

...Duh. You know there is also a scripture that says your name can be taken out of the book of life also.........God must have a huge eraser.......

Oh, and all denominations believe they are in the TRUE church...

Originally posted by debbiejo
You know there is also a scripture that says your name can be taken out of the book of life also.........God must have a huge eraser.......

Oh, and all denominations believe they are in the TRUE church...

Not all...my old Christianity accepted all religions.

Originally posted by peejayd
* okay, so for us to be sure if we really are "christians" as we claim to be, i believe that True Christians live a life according to the Bible (ATB) and to the teachings and doctrines of Christ...

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Matthew 7:21-23

* the Scriptures tells us that not every one who says, "Lord, Lord", shall enter the kingdom of heaven...

* so how come i heard someone said that all we need is Jesus + Bible = Christian?

"And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that even for a whole year they were gathered together with the church, and taught much people, and that the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch."
The Acts 11:26

* let us remember that the early Christians were taught by the word of God... it's not as simple as Jesus + Bible = Christian... nope, it's not like that at all...

A Christian should accept any that claim to be followers of Christ as a brother. If they are in error then they should be taught appropriately, but it is not our place to deny any what Christ has offered. I believe in the shaping process, and any step in the right direction is a step worth taking. Stating that "so and so is not a true Christian" places the stumbling block, mentioned in scripture, in front of them, and may cause them to fall. It is not something that is exclusionary, at least not based on our abilities to judge as such.

The problem is, that the bible has been altered, firstly by roman emperor's, and later by Priests and Clerics.

True Christianity died when Jesus did.

Originally posted by Alliance
Not all...my old Christianity accepted all religions. Which is what denomination, just curious.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Which is what denomination, just curious.

Catholicsm, well at least the church I used to go to, would have a baptist minister come in every once in a while to give a sermon if the priest (Who was 71) was sick.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
The problem is, that the bible has been altered, firstly by roman emperor's, and later by Priests and Clerics.

True Christianity died when Jesus did.


True, but then that means there is no such thing as a "True Christian"....this is getting confusing....

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
True, but then that means there is no such thing as a "True Christian"....this is getting confusing....

You are on the right track.

Christianity is as simply as beliving Christ was the Messiah. End of story.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
True, but then that means there is no such thing as a "True Christian"....this is getting confusing....

Which is exactly my point...

Originally posted by debbiejo
You know there is also a scripture that says your name can be taken out of the book of life also.........God must have a huge eraser.......

Oh, and all denominations believe they are in the TRUE church...
"I shall not blot out your name from the Book of Life".

Something like that in Revelation.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Which is exactly my point...

And its one that should be made.

Originally posted by Alliance
Christianity is as simply as beliving Christ was the Messiah. End of story.

* i beg to disagree, my friend, believing is not enough to be a Christian...

"And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
As he spake these words, many believed on him.
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;"
John 8:29-31

* after a preaching of Jesus (verse 29), many Jews believed on Him (verse 30)... but Christ said, to be His disciple, one must continue to abide by His words or teachings...

Well, i gues that leads to the question can you not be a disciple of Jesus and still be Christian.

"And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that even for a whole year they were gathered together with the church, and taught much people, and that the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch."
The Acts 11:26

* the disciples/followers of Christ ARE Christians and vice-versa...

Originally posted by peejayd
* i beg to disagree, my friend, believing is not enough to be a Christian...

"And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
As he spake these words, many believed on him.
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;"
John 8:29-31

* after a preaching of Jesus (verse 29), many Jews believed on Him (verse 30)... but Christ said, to be His disciple, one must continue to abide by His words or teachings...


Peejayd..let me ask you...Have you ever shaved your beard or wore Polyester ?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Peejayd..let me ask you...Have you ever shaved your beard or wore Polyester ?
We are no longer bound by the strictures of the Law.

YES! We just do whatever our pastor tells us!

Originally posted by Alliance
YES! We just do whatever our pastor tells us!
no not rly

I've never had a pastor order me to do something.

Oh, you just suck in his every word?

Originally posted by peejayd
* i beg to disagree, my friend, believing is not enough to be a Christian...

"And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
As he spake these words, many believed on him.
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;"
John 8:29-31

* after a preaching of Jesus (verse 29), many Jews believed on Him (verse 30)... but Christ said, to be His disciple, one must continue to abide by His words or teachings...

Then you are looking for some sort of criteria that goes beyond theological definition. Because in all terms a Christian is a person who believe in Jesus, that he is the Messiah, the Bible and all that.

What you are getting at is criteria I guess based on intent. Action. Philosophy. Which of course is problematic because if, for example, one says "A true Christian is a person who is merciful, compassionate, humble, peaceful and loving" because there are many, many non-Christians who fulfil such criteria. Perhaps it would be then "A true Christian believes in Jesus and is merciful etc etc."

Of course then doctrine gets raised - a true Christian is the one following and interpreting the Bible correctly. And as has been said many times before there are hundreds, more then hundreds, of sects/denominations who claim to be true Christians based upon the interpretations criteria they adhere to.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Peejayd..let me ask you...Have you ever shaved your beard or wore Polyester ?

* does the shaving of beard and wearing of polyester have anything to do with salvation in the time of Christianity?

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Then you are looking for some sort of criteria that goes beyond theological definition. Because in all terms a Christian is a person who believe in Jesus, that he is the Messiah, the Bible and all that.

What you are getting at is criteria I guess based on intent. Action. Philosophy. Which of course is problematic because if, for example, one says "A true Christian is a person who is merciful, compassionate, humble, peaceful and loving" because there are many, many non-Christians who fulfil such criteria. Perhaps it would be then "A true Christian believes in Jesus and is merciful etc etc."

Of course then doctrine gets raised - a true Christian is the one following and interpreting the Bible correctly. And as has been said many times before there are hundreds, more then hundreds, of sects/denominations who claim to be true Christians based upon the interpretations criteria they adhere to.

* as the Bible tells us...

"And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that even for a whole year they were gathered together with the church, and taught much people, and that the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch."
The Acts 11:26

* the Christians are taught of the teachings of Christ, not just believing on Christ...

"And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
As he spake these words, many believed on him.
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;"
John 8:29-31

* Christians are those who continues to abide by the teachings of Christ...

* so, Biblically speaking, it is correct for me to say that those people or groups not in accordance with the teachings of Christ are NOT real Christians...

Originally posted by peejayd
* does the shaving of beard and wearing of polyester have anything to do with salvation in the time of Christianity?


Oh I beleive it DOES...

In the Old Testament, shaving your beard, wearing polyester, having homosexual sex, and eating shrimp are grave sins punishable by death.

However, many Christians will argue "That no longer applies, because the Lord Christ has saved us from such things".....

If that is the case, then why include it ? The Old Testament must be irrelevant then if you are no longer Obliged to its Laws.

If the Old Testament, IS RELEVANT, then I take it that you, like ALL Christians, will nit pick...choose and ignore what quotes are most convienent and compatible with your own personal virtues...

Ah,...the Hypocrisy is Legendary !

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
If the Old Testament, IS RELEVANT, then I take it that you, like ALL Christians, will nit pick...choose and ignore what quotes are most convienent and compatible with your own personal virtues...

While I agree...This is only true if people take the bible literally.

Originally posted by peejayd

* as the Bible tells us...

"And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that even for a whole year they were gathered together with the church, and taught much people, and that the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch."
The Acts 11:26

* the Christians are taught of the teachings of Christ, not just believing on Christ...

"And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
As he spake these words, many believed on him.
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;"
John 8:29-31

* Christians are those who continues to abide by the teachings of Christ...

* so, Biblically speaking, it is correct for me to say that those people or groups not in accordance with the teachings of Christ are NOT real Christians...

Then that is purely doctrinal. It comes down to interpretation what exactly Christ is teaching - if the Bible is Christ's textbook, and Christian's follow it, which is part of what being a Christian is, then they can say "We are true Christian's"

But there are differences in what people thought Jesus was saying, what weight they put on the OT part of things, and so on.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Oh I beleive it DOES...

In the Old Testament, shaving your beard, wearing polyester, having homosexual sex, and eating shrimp are grave sins punishable by death.

However, many Christians will argue "That no longer applies, because the Lord Christ has saved us from such things".....

If that is the case, then why include it ? The Old Testament must be irrelevant then if you are no longer Obliged to its Laws.

If the Old Testament, IS RELEVANT, then I take it that you, like ALL Christians, will nit pick...choose and ignore what quotes are most convienent and compatible with your own personal virtues...

Ah,...the Hypocrisy is Legendary !
Perhaps you ought to check the other thread before flapping your jaws in the wind some more.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Oh I beleive it DOES...

In the Old Testament, shaving your beard, wearing polyester, having homosexual sex, and eating shrimp are grave sins punishable by death.

However, many Christians will argue "That no longer applies, because the Lord Christ has saved us from such things".....

If that is the case, then why include it ? The Old Testament must be irrelevant then if you are no longer Obliged to its Laws.

If the Old Testament, IS RELEVANT, then I take it that you, like ALL Christians, will nit pick...choose and ignore what quotes are most convienent and compatible with your own personal virtues...

Ah,...the Hypocrisy is Legendary !

* nope, this is not hypocrisy, my friend...

* this is what i've been trying to say all along... there are people and/or groups that claims they are Christians but does not do things like a Christian...

* for example: if you ask that question to a "christian", he might really say, "That no longer applies, because the Lord Christ has saved us from such things", just like you said... yes! it's true... but ask them: "Where in the Bible is your basis of the law of giving tithes ?" then, they will give you this verse:

"Bring ye the whole tithe into the store-house, that there may be food in my house, and prove me now herewith, saith Jehovah of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it."
Malachi 3:10

* how come when salvation is tackled, they insists the law of Christ... but how come when there is MONEY involved, they go back to the Old Testament where they can gain profit?

* if the salvation is based on the teachings of Christ, then the church collection SHOULD also be based on the New Testament:

"Let each man do according as he hath purposed in his heart: not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver."
II Corinthians 9:7

* the church collection is according to what the person had purposed in his heart... and NOT a mandatory 10% or tithes...

* so why include the Old Testament? it's part of Biblical history, my friend... so people reading the Bible will understand why Christ was crucified, what are those laws in the Old that Christ had amended or perfected... there are others laws in the Old that still stands in the New but most of them are amended and perfected by Christ in the New Testament...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Then that is purely doctrinal. It comes down to interpretation what exactly Christ is teaching - if the Bible is Christ's textbook, and Christian's follow it, which is part of what being a Christian is, then they can say "We are true Christian's"

But there are differences in what people thought Jesus was saying, what weight they put on the OT part of things, and so on.

* correct, so to avoid mistakes, we should just read and understand the word of God... and NOT interpret it the way that we might gain profit or the way we want it to be...

Originally posted by peejayd
* correct, so to avoid mistakes, we should just read and understand the word of God... and NOT interpret it the way that we might gain profit or the way we want it to be...

But it is very hard for people not to interpret something, especially when firstly there is so much symbolism, secondly when there is a whole other part of the bible that doesn't always blend in with what the Jesus part is saying and when thirdly there is no clarifying source out there - the author doesn't seem interested in giving interviews or publishing journal articles to clarify.

Just yesterday in one of my uni course tutorials (Egyptian Religion, quite enjoyable) we had a debate - is the Pharaoh a god, or isn't he? The debate was drawn from two texts (dedicatory inscriptions to Ramesses II) I was on the affirmative side. Now, just taking the text at face value made it easy to say "Yes, he is a god, because it says so" - our side didn't really have to interpret, just say pretty much what the text was saying.

However the negative side had to interpret and not work so symbolically -and an entirely different perspective came about. And both are justified, and in fact it is a raging debate in the historical community since both are so justified and so evenly presented. Which is correct though?

To say "just read it and don't interpreter" is a hard thing to do, because it might very well mean one is missing important messages.

* yes, it's really hard NOT to interpret, but let's face it, if no one interprets the Bible in the first place, do we still have a problem? i think not... hard as it may seem, my friend, the safest way is NOT to interpret something we don't understand because every person most of time have different pre-conceived ideas and conclusions that varies... do you agree?

Originally posted by peejayd
* yes, it's really hard NOT to interpret, but let's face it, if no one interprets the Bible in the first place, do we still have a problem? i think not... hard as it may seem, my friend, the safest way is NOT to interpret something we don't understand because every person most of time have different pre-conceived ideas and conclusions that varies... do you agree?

Yes, but that is the inherent problem - we do not know exactly what was going through Jesus's head. The Bible we have today is the product of many busy hands - and it is also hard for a person to write without putting themselves in their works.

Luke, Mark, Mathew and so on - give a different perspective. Subtle in some cases, more profound in others. It is not like the bible is just the minute of a meeting - it is a narrative, with intents and morals and biases weaved throughout - like any work. And with so much symbolism it is not easy to just take it at face value. If there was more simple phrases like "Thou shall not steal" then it would be as easy as you say. But when so much of the Jesus part is telling about Jesus doing things, and expecting people to infer the moral of the story out of the tale it gets harder.

There is not a single Church on the face of the planet that's doctrine is not based upon Biblical interpretation. There are just a lot that claim "We aren't interpreting, we are just doing exactly what it says to do" - but that is never the case. And as you have said - people think differently. You read the Bible, you assimilate the words, you subconsciously interpret what they mean. It is often not intentional - it is how we understand things. Another person read it, because of there understanding, there context, age, gender, vocab, they will see something different. They are choosing to see it different, it is just the way it is.

Views are, for most part, relative things.

Originally posted by peejayd
* nope, this is not hypocrisy, my friend...

* this is what i've been trying to say all along... there are people and/or groups that claims they are Christians but does not do things like a Christian...

* for example: if you ask that question to a "christian", he might really say, "That no longer applies, because the Lord Christ has saved us from such things", just like you said... yes! it's true... but ask them: "Where in the Bible is your basis of the law of giving tithes ?" then, they will give you this verse:

"Bring ye the whole tithe into the store-house, that there may be food in my house, and prove me now herewith, saith Jehovah of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it."
Malachi 3:10

* how come when salvation is tackled, they insists the law of Christ... but how come when there is MONEY involved, they go back to the Old Testament where they can gain profit?

* if the salvation is based on the teachings of Christ, then the church collection SHOULD also be based on the New Testament:

"Let each man do according as he hath purposed in his heart: not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver."
II Corinthians 9:7

* the church collection is according to what the person had purposed in his heart... and NOT a mandatory 10% or tithes...

* so why include the Old Testament? it's part of Biblical history, my friend... so people reading the Bible will understand why Christ was crucified, what are those laws in the Old that Christ had amended or perfected... there are others laws in the Old that still stands in the New but most of them are amended and perfected by Christ in the New Testament...



* correct, so to avoid mistakes, we should just read and understand the word of God... and NOT interpret it the way that we might gain profit or the way we want it to be...



I understand the need for respect of the Old Testament, as if it a huge part of the Bible's history, however, in terms of judgement and in terms of defining what is "right and wrong", Christians in general will turn towards the Old Testament in terms of defining what you can and cannot do, and to do so is laughable if the Old Testament no longer applies.

* that's the point... but i still disagree with the fact that the persons you're refering to are the True Christians stated in the Bible...