If You Try To Logically Prove Your Faith, You Don't Truly Believe...

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Draco69
I always believed that if you try to form a logical arguement or thesis for your faith, you don't truly believe it in.

Faith isn't logical nor rational.

Trying to form a logical or scientific arguement to "prove" your faith or forming a logical or scientific arguement to "disprove" the antithesis to your faith implies doubt in your faith.

Having true faith means believing in what you believe in no matter what. No matter WHAT. No amount of logic or science should sway you. You shouldn't try to "prove" your faith either because you believe it to be so anyway.

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by Draco69
I always believed that if you try to form a logical arguement or thesis for your faith, you don't truly believe it in.

Faith isn't logical nor rational.

Trying to form a logical or scientific arguement to "prove" your faith or forming a logical or scientific arguement to "disprove" the antithesis to your faith implies doubt in your faith.

Having true faith means believing in what you believe in no matter what. No matter WHAT. No amount of logic or science should sway you. You shouldn't try to "prove" your faith either because you believe it to be so anyway.

He is doing it for "other people's benefit" not for his sake (personally).

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
He is doing it for "other people's benefit" not for his sake (personally).

How do you know that?

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
How do you know that?

Because he addressed another human being other than himself. If he was doing it for his sake he doesn't need to voice anything to anyone else. Common sense.

Draco69
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Because he addressed another human being other than himself. If he was doing it for his sake he doesn't need to voice anything to anyone else. Common sense.

Oh please. He was making arguement on an Internet Forum for people to hear his opinions on what can and what cannot be proven.

That implies he did for himself.

I make an arguement for something and I look foreward to what people have to say about it.

It wasn't pure altruism....

roll eyes (sarcastic)

And do get back to the topic. erm

RocasAtoll
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Because he addressed another human being other than himself. If he was doing it for his sake he doesn't need to voice anything to anyone else. Common sense.

that would be Grade-A bullcrap. Murderers try to justify their actions for their own fullfilment, but still try to force their logic on those around them.

Alliance
Simply put: Belief without (or in the face of) fact is ignorance.

Slyððering
I'm unsure....although I believe that Alliance does have a point....

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Because he addressed another human being other than himself. If he was doing it for his sake he doesn't need to voice anything to anyone else. Common sense.

What? How old are you?

leonheartmm
i agree FAITH is illogical. but then why does sumthin which is supposedly FAITH make LOGICAL statement and further try to prove itself through LOGIC and calls itself LOGICAL on top of having PHYSICAL logical and forseeable consequences on followers and non followers

Alliance
faith does not have to be illogical...I have faith that the world will continue rotating...and that is completely logical

RocasAtoll
Originally posted by Alliance
faith does not have to be illogical...I have faith that the world will continue rotating...and that is completely logical

Technically, by the definintion of faith that has been given numerous times, your wrong. Faith is believing without any proof. You have proof, and therefore it isn't a matter of "faith".

Draco69
I believe in ghosts. I have faith that ghosts exist. All science and logic points otherwise. But I don't care because I still believe in it. I'm certainly not going to try to prove it because I can't. It's my faith....

RocasAtoll
Yup, that would be a perfect example of faith. yes

Slyððering
But religious faith is more dubious than believing in certain other supernatural things....
I mean, no one I know ever says "Ghosts don't exist, because there's proof," they say "We can't prove that Ghosts exist or don't exist."

I find that religion is (usually) a thing that people can say "can't be true" based on other facts.

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by RocasAtoll
that would be Grade-A bullcrap. Murderers try to justify their actions for their own fullfilment, but still try to force their logic on those around them.

So based on your reasoning offering someone something to consider is forcing your logic on them? Absurd, ludicrous, asinine, nonsense, idiocy, foolish, and a bunch of other words that I don't have time to write. Answer me this: have you ever asked a girl out on a date?

Shakyamunison

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
So based on your reasoning offering someone something to consider is forcing your logic on them? Absurd, ludicrous, asinine, nonsense, idiocy, foolish, and a bunch of other words that I don't have time to write. Answer me this: have you ever asked a girl out on a date?

I think that fits under the definition of tolling.

Alliance
Originally posted by RocasAtoll
Technically, by the definintion of faith that has been given numerous times, your wrong. Faith is believing without any proof. You have proof, and therefore it isn't a matter of "faith".

No I don't think that is correct. There is no proof that the earth will be rotating tomorrow. Do you have any?

Alliance
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I think that fits under the definition of tolling.

Or angsty 12 year olds.

Draco69
Originally posted by Alliance
No I don't think that is correct. There is no proof that the earth will be rotating tomorrow. Do you have any?

Well, there's like physics and stuff.

I hate physics....

Alliance
Its faith that fact and our natural laws will continue to work.

Its a completely rational form of faith.

RocasAtoll
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
So based on your reasoning offering someone something to consider is forcing your logic on them? Absurd, ludicrous, asinine, nonsense, idiocy, foolish, and a bunch of other words that I don't have time to write. Answer me this: have you ever asked a girl out on a date?

Sorry, I'll replace that with "Explain".

And I'm married, *******.

RocasAtoll
Originally posted by Alliance
Its faith that fact and our natural laws will continue to work.

Its a completely rational form of faith.

"Rational" faith is not-existant. Faith's definition:

1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.

So, your wrong. Haha! smile

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by RocasAtoll
Sorry, I'll replace that with "Explain".

And I'm married, *******.

I don't know what ******* means, but the first thought that came into my mind only had 6 letters. laughing

Draco69
Originally posted by RocasAtoll


And I'm married

You poor bastard.

My deepest condolences....

sad

RocasAtoll
I know. She talked me into it. sad stick out tongue

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by RocasAtoll
Sorry, I'll replace that with "Explain".

And I'm married, *******.

Great, then my illustration will work. Did you propose to your wife or did she propose to you. If you proposed to her then in essence you gave her something to consider: marriage. You didn't force your logic (in this case your offer for marriage) on her, you simply offerered her the opportunity to marry you. You put it forth for her consideration. Well, similarly, offering someone an opportunity to consider whether Jesus Christ rose from the dead is not forcing anything on anyone. It is no different than putting out an offer for marriage. If the listeners don't want to hear then they can opt to leave. And if your wife did not want to marry you she could have simply opted to leave you. Same thing. So just as you don't treat your (original) offer to your wife to marry you as something forced, it is not sensible to treat an offer from someone to another person to examine information for themselves something forced. It is still ultimately the other person's decision.

RocasAtoll
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Great, then my illustration will work. Did you propose to your wife or did she propose to you. If you proposed to her then in essence you gave her something to consider: marriage. You didn't force your logic (in this case your offer for marriage) on her, you simply offerered her the opportunity to marry you. You put it forth for her consideration. Well, similarly, offering someone an opportunity to consider whether Jesus Christ rose from the dead is not forcing anything on anyone. It is no different than putting out an offer for marriage. If the listeners don't want to hear then they can opt to leave. And if your wife did not want to marry you she could have simply opted to leave you. Same thing. So just as you don't treat your (original) offer to your wife to marry you as something forced, it is not sensible to treat an offer from someone to another person to examine information for themselves something forced. It is still ultimately the other person's decision.

Like I said, I am sorry for using the wrong word, and replace it with explain.

And, in my opinion, consistantly shoving the same idea down my throat and over again constitutes forcing your logic.

Draco69
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Great, then my illustration will work. Did you propose to your wife or did she propose to you. If you proposed to her then in essence you gave her something to consider: marriage. You didn't force your logic (in this case your offer for marriage) on her, you simply offerered her the opportunity to marry you. You put it forth for her consideration. Well, similarly, offering someone an opportunity to consider whether Jesus Christ rose from the dead is not forcing anything on anyone. It is no different than putting out an offer for marriage. If the listeners don't want to hear then they can opt to leave. And if your wife did not want to marry you she could have simply opted to leave you. Same thing. So just as you don't treat your (original) offer to your wife to marry you as something forced, it is not sensible to treat an offer from someone to another person to examine information for themselves something forced. It is still ultimately the other person's decision.

Strange. I thought people proposed to people because they loved them and they wanted that person to be their spouse and they wanted spend their rest of their lives in happieness with their loved ones.

Then again I forgot. You equate marriage as some sort of legal contract that requires good health, child-bearing and a woman that always listen to their husbands. Love isn't a necessity for the marriage as long as the person can reproduce like a rabbit on Viagra....

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by Draco69
Strange. I thought people proposed to people because they loved them and they wanted that person to be their spouse and they wanted spend their rest of their lives in happieness with their loved ones.

Then again I forgot. You equate marriage as some sort of legal contract that requires good health, child-bearing and a woman that always listen to their husbands. Love isn't a necessity for the marriage as long as the person can reproduce like a rabbit on Viagra....

What are you talking about?

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by RocasAtoll
Like I said, I am sorry for using the wrong word, and replace it with explain.

And, in my opinion, consistantly shoving the same idea down my throat and over again constitutes forcing your logic.

So, William Lane Craig consistently shoved the same idea down your throat over and over again? Remember he is who we are originally talking about.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Great, then my illustration will work. Did you propose to your wife or did she propose to you. If you proposed to her then in essence you gave her something to consider: marriage. You didn't force your logic (in this case your offer for marriage) on her, you simply offerered her the opportunity to marry you. You put it forth for her consideration. Well, similarly, offering someone an opportunity to consider whether Jesus Christ rose from the dead is not forcing anything on anyone. It is no different than putting out an offer for marriage. If the listeners don't want to hear then they can opt to leave. And if your wife did not want to marry you she could have simply opted to leave you. Same thing. So just as you don't treat your (original) offer to your wife to marry you as something forced, it is not sensible to treat an offer from someone to another person to examine information for themselves something forced. It is still ultimately the other person's decision.

But you must first court the woman. You have to bring her flowers and take her out for dancing. Using your analogy, Christians are walking up to perfect strangers and asking them to marry them.

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But you must first court the woman. You have to bring her flowers and take her out for dancing. Using your analogy, Christians are walking up to perfect strangers and asking them to marry them.

Not necessarily, there is more than one way to win a girl's heart. I have never taken a girl out dancing or brought her flowers to win her heart and yet I did and have.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Not necessarily, there is more than one way to win a girl's heart. I have never taken a girl out dancing or brought her flowers to win her heart and yet I did and have.

Please don't get distracted by the metaphor.

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Please don't get distracted by the metaphor.

I was being difficult on purpose.

Regret
Originally posted by Draco69
I always believed that if you try to form a logical arguement or thesis for your faith, you don't truly believe it in.

Faith isn't logical nor rational.

Trying to form a logical or scientific arguement to "prove" your faith or forming a logical or scientific arguement to "disprove" the antithesis to your faith implies doubt in your faith.

Having true faith means believing in what you believe in no matter what. No matter WHAT. No amount of logic or science should sway you. You shouldn't try to "prove" your faith either because you believe it to be so anyway.

I think you are referring to "blind faith" when you use the phrase "true faith." Blind faith is an error. You should logically reason through your beliefs, and then faith is the portion that does not have evidence supporting it. A person that does not logically reason through their beliefs is an idiot, and is not using the complete faculties that we as individuals have.

Blind faith isn't logical nor rational. True faith is.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I was being difficult on purpose.

What was your purpose?

JesusIsAlive
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
What was your purpose?

You've never intentionally given someone a hard time just because? It is a form of teasing.

Alliance
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I was being difficult on purpose.
laughing
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
You've never intentionally given someone a hard time just because? It is a form of teasing.
With you....no one is friendly with you becuase you are not friendly with us.

No one is going to play with you. And no one thinks your funny.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
You've never intentionally given someone a hard time just because? It is a form of teasing.

Then you must tease us all the time

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Draco69

Faith isn't logical nor rational.

So illogical and irrational which are the opposites of rational and logical?



I insist it shouldn't. The whole "Proof destroys faith" argument has always reeked, to me, of an attempt to excuse an aloof God, or a nonexistent one.

"Oh prospective followers you don't need proof to believe! Yes, you can't see the Lord, and it appears he doesn't do anything for anyone, but that is what makes his faith all the truer! It is not hard to believe in something when there is proof! But it is quite another to believe in something with no proof! In most circumstances this would be called "blind faith" but not here. No! Because this is the one true God etc. etc. etc.



So having true faith, theoretically, means believing no matter what? Even if something occurs that offers factual proof what one believes in isn't true?

I was reading, the other day, a biography of a German who defected or something like that to the Socialists/Communists during WWII. Prior to this he believed in the cause of Hitler and so forth. Then, he saw the horrors the Nazi regime was committing. Now, this proof led him to "loose faith" in the Nazis, and to find new faith in the Soviet philosophy (which sadly didn't turn out well either.)

You see, I think people are always doing it - they believe in things. Sometime this belief is in response to proof they have seen. Proof it is the way, proof that the alternatives aren't good, proof that something is real and deserves faith. The excuse you are only "really believing" without proof rings hollow. Even more so when there is then a whole other lot of religious people who go on about what God has done for them - near death experiences, miracles, all that jazz. So what is it? Is their faith nonexistent because they believe they have proof? Or is it the stronger for it?

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