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Besides being abstract, what is the difference in power of the lower abstracts?

There seems to be some confustion as to what constitutes abstract power lvls. SOmeone like Parallax was not an abstract, but he had High Tier Abstract power lvls. Galactus is sometimes considered abstract and sometimes not. But he most definitely has abstract power lvls.

Let's say tyrant fully powered fight galactus. He would have to be beyond skyfather lvl in order to even put up that kind of fight against galactus. But he is not an abstract is he? So what constitutes abstract power lvls as opposed to high tier sky father?

Could someone like Odin, Hight Tier Sky father, beat someone like the Inbetweener, low tier Abstract. What does it take for someone to be abstract in power? not an abstract, becuz something as simple as envy can be an abstract. But would it be as powerful as Darkseid? Prolly not. So what divides this invisable line of power that seperates the abstract power lvls as opposed to high tier sky fathers?

Bump

Does anyone have the answer that I seek? Or do we just arbitrarily decide who has abstact power lvls and who is sky father. Is there an actual guide? what makes one character abstract in power lvl and the other sky father?

Bump. I need an answer people. What makes somone abstact in power vs someone who is sky Father? who makes the descision on who is sky father and who is abstract. What abilities does a person have to display to be abstract in power as opposed to sky Father? When Darkseid stopped ares in time and space, and ares had the full power of the god wave, I considered that to be an act of abstract power lvl on Darkseid's behalf. But some people say he's only low or mid tier sky father. So what is the answer? how much power does someone need to jump from sky father to abstract?

Abstract isn't a power level.

It's a position of existence or being if you will.

A representation.

Classic Ion isn't an abstract, but since he eclipses the universe itself in power and range, he'd destroy Eternity, since Eternity is limited as a universal representative.

There is no abstract level, as there is no herald level and skyfather level.
Merely positions is what they are.

The way I see it, to be on the level of an abstract(and I personally don't consider many people to be), you have to pose a serious threat to an ACTUAL abstract. Now unless I'm mistaken, Ares is a skyfather, and even with the godwave he's not an actual abstract. Now the thing is, that abstracts are actually some of the biggest victims of PIS out there. Very few of the instances where they're taken down by a non abstract should even be considered valid, because they simply function on a whole different level than most. To be an actual abstract, you need to represent some fundamental, intangible force, and have mastery over that force. To be on abstract level, you need to be able to match an actual abstract in power, not physical strength(though that can be an indication), but in the actual power you have behind you. For instance, your example IMO would NOT constitute an abstract level feat, because A. Ares is not an abstract. B. That would be sidestepping his opponent, NOT matching Ares power with his own. A better example would be if an Abstract manifested itself and attacks Darkseid, then as the abstract blast away, Darkseid is able to counter the blast with one of his own, either stalemating the abstract's blast or overcoming it with his own blast. However, even in that instance it would probably considered by most an event of PIS or SMvF(remember, I said abstracts were major victims of it), because Darkseid was created to be a skyfather, and abstract is a level that shouldn't be able to be reached through character growth, there should always be something specific that skyrockets the character to that level. Now all this is strictly my opinion, to my knowledge it's never really been covered before, and I may be completely wrong about it, but that's the way I see it.

Originally posted by darthgoober
The way I see it, to be on the level of an abstract(and I personally don't consider many people to be), you have to pose a serious threat to an ACTUAL abstract. Now unless I'm mistaken, Ares is a skyfather, and even with the godwave he's not an actual abstract. Now the thing is, that abstracts are actually some of the biggest victims of PIS out there. Very few of the instances where they're taken down by a non abstract should even be considered valid, because they simply function on a whole different level than most. To be an actual abstract, you need to represent some fundamental, intangible force, and have mastery over that force. To be on abstract level, you need to be able to match an actual abstract in power, not physical strength(though that can be an indication), but in the actual power you have behind you. For instance, your example IMO would NOT constitute an abstract level feat, because A. Ares is not an abstract. B. That would be sidestepping his opponent, NOT matching Ares power with his own. A better example would be if an Abstract manifested itself and attacks Darkseid, then as the abstract blast away, Darkseid is able to counter the blast with one of his own, either stalemating the abstract's blast or overcoming it with his own blast. However, even in that instance it would probably considered by most an event of PIS or SMvF(remember, I said abstracts were major victims of it), because Darkseid was created to be a skyfather, and abstract is a level that shouldn't be able to be reached through character growth, there should always be something specific that skyrockets the character to that level. Now all this is strictly my opinion, to my knowledge it's never really been covered before, and I may be completely wrong about it, but that's the way I see it.

I never considered Ares as abstract lvl. But he did posses the God wave which was abstract in position and power. For this reason, I considered Darkseids power against Ares at the time to be at abstract lvl. Any being who can hold the Godwave wielder in check by actually hardening time and space has some major cajulas. I just wanted to know the differnce in power. Cuz there doesn't seem to be a clear cut definition. I mean anything most sky Fathers can do, so can Silver Surfer or hal Jordan. But they are considered as herald lvl.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
I never considered Ares as abstract lvl. But he did posses the God wave which was abstract in position and power. For this reason, I considered Darkseids power against Ares at the time to be at abstract lvl. Any being who can hold the Godwave wielder in check by actually hardening time and space has some major cajulas. I just wanted to know the differnce in power. Cuz there doesn't seem to be a clear cut definition. I mean anything most sky Fathers can do, so can Silver Surfer or hal Jordan. But they are considered as herald lvl.
Yeah, there's not to my knowledge, a clear cut definition to the power of an abstract, just the position. Mostly I think you just have to compare how they fair against people on the average, because any one can have a good day once in a while agaist someone better(especially in a comic), so it's the average that tells us where their power really lies(if it's not clearly established anyway).

Sure there is a definition of an abstract entity.
The beings are "Avatars" of cosmic states, components of existence, actual elements of reality in the universe. States of being. Experience.
If you listed every ingredient that makes up the recipe of the universe, each ingredient would have the capacity to give birth to an avatar of itself. An Abstract Entity. The pinnacle of an idea or state.

That is why Marvel always eludes to the fact that, even if an abstract dies, it has to be replaced. Otherwise, it could be damaging to the universe. Representative of the forces making up the universe.

Skyfathers are just the heads of their respective pantheons of gods.

As a matter of fact, I would like to announce that my brother, sister, and all my friends are now "Gods".
I am their Skyfather!

Show me the respect I am due!

Originally posted by Horrificus
Sure there is a definition of an abstract entity.
The beings are "Avatars" of cosmic states, components of existence, actual elements of reality in the universe. States of being. Experience.
If you listed every ingredient that makes up the recipe of the universe, each ingredient would have the capacity to give birth to an avatar of itself. An Abstract Entity. The pinnacle of an idea or state.

That is why Marvel always eludes to the fact that, even if an abstract dies, it has to be replaced. Otherwise, it could be damaging to the universe. Representative of the forces making up the universe.

Skyfathers are just the heads of their respective pantheons of gods.

As a matter of fact, I would like to announce that my brother, sister, and all my friends are now "Gods".
I am their Skyfather!

Show me the respect I am due!
I said there was no definition of the POWER required to be an abstract. I already gave a definition FOR an abstract.

This isn't really a versus thread...

Originally posted by rotiart
This isn't really a versus thread...

It does help us better explain things on this forum where the information is most useful.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I said there was no definition of the POWER required to be an abstract. I already gave a definition FOR an abstract.

And YOU were wrong.

Kronoskilled no other Time-designated abstract being. And, he never had any power over time until recently.

He was just a big, intangible consciousness, stuck in space, spreading out over time.

Maelstrom became Anamoly, after killing Anamoly. No with any kind of Anamoly-power. Just killed it,and took over.

Originally posted by Horrificus
Kronoskilled no other Time-designated abstract being. And, he never had any power over time until recently.

Kronos has been the Titan god of Time since back in the day.


Originally posted by Horrificus
He was just a big, intangible consciousness, stuck in space, spreading out over time.

Back in the day:

Chronos
http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/5491/chronosdrax1xc3.th.jpg

Chronos recreates Drax and empowers him, with the strength of the Universe.,
http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/3849/chronosdrax2dm9.th.jpg
http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/411/draxbornyy0.th.jpg


Originally posted by Horrificus
Maelstrom became Anamoly, after killing Anamoly. No with any kind of Anamoly-power. Just killed it,and took over.

Maelstrom thought he killed the Anomaly, but it was a visualization of the Anomaly, (nothing in comparison) NOT the Anomaly itself.

Here WAY after Maelstrom had done that, the Anomaly pops up in the dimension of manifestation and attacks Quasar.
http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/8245/anomily2ot7.th.jpg

Maelstrom thought he killed the Anomaly, it was an M-body
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/8343/anomilyfh6.th.jpg

So basically, this would be like Odin vs Oblivion?
Even Odin vs a Celstial, would be bad.
You obviosly don't know the difference between abstract and Skyfather.

We have a top tier skyfather (Odin). There's so many people in between an abstract and a skyfather level, it's redicules.
Celestials, Galactus, Genis(?), etc.
What would be the weakest abstracts? Order and Chaos(Marvel)
Those 2 aren't powerful by themselves, but they would work in unison, to make there creations and such(Inbetweener), together they are abstract. But people like Eternity, Infinity, Oblivion, Death, would,(or should) Destroy any being under a full power Galactus.(maybe not Death)
Abstract is not a power level, it's a position.
But here in the forum, we say things, like "he's an abstract"
This is only to guage his/her power, it is not saying, he/she is an abstract. It is mostly to say, that someone is on an Eternity level.

But skyfather's should never even be able to touch, an abstract.
Someone like Eternity, should be able to hit Odin once, and utterly wipe him out.

P.S keep in mind, I'm mostly talking about Marvel.

Originally posted by bigbran
But skyfather's should never even be able to touch, and abstract.
Someone like Eternity, should be able to hit Odin once, and utterly wipe him out.

There are weak Skyfathers too. They aren't all as powerful as Odin or Crom.

Since an abstract is more of a "concept", it makes sense that, for instance, if Enternity, Death or Galactus are destroyed, it would mean the end of the universe. Because that would mean that a basic component of the universe is gone. It should all fall.

As far as the kronos thing goes, he had power, yeah. And, may even have been a God of Titan, but, he was not a Universal Abstract of Time.
I mean, the guys was stuck in our solar system, fading.
He had no time powers until recently.

Originally posted by Horrificus
There are weak Skyfathers too. They aren't all as powerful as Odin or Crom.

I know, but he said High skyfathers.(like it really make a difference)

Originally posted by bigbran
I know, but he said High skyfathers.(like it really make a difference)

It does make a difference. Some people say Darkseid is only low or mid sky father, but he does things like harden time and space around ares who controlled the God wave, The god wave put ares on par with a universal abstract in power. yet Darkseid, held him in stasis by actually hardening time and space. I want to know what it takes to be abstract in power if that ain't it. I can't see any sky father owning ares like Darkseid did. I"m just trying to get some things cleared up.

Originally posted by Mr Master


Maelstrom was only able to kill the M-body of Anomaly because he had a portion of Oblivion's power, added to his own.

Anomaly was able to later recreate himself in the M Universe. But, his M body was killed in the universe.

Any skyfather vs someone on Eternity's level, would get there bumhole cleaned out, and then ripped apart.

Originally posted by Horrificus
Since an abstract is more of a "concept", it makes sense that, for instance, if Enternity, Death or Galactus are destroyed, it would mean the end of the universe. Because that would mean that a basic component of the universe is gone. It should all fall.

If Eternity dies, it's definitely the end of that specific Universe that was Eternity.

If Galactus dies, a Universe will slowly fold/collapse, but much more threatening than that,

If Big G dies, then Abraxas will manifest, and that's the end of a Multi-verse.

Death died once, the Universe didn't die, but the balance was out of order, (this would have caused great problems down the road though)


Originally posted by Horrificus
As far as the kronos thing goes, he had power, yeah. And, may even have been a God of Titan, but, he was not a Universal Abstract of Time.
I mean, the guys was stuck in our solar system, fading.
He had no time powers until recently.

Nah dude,

He wasn't even part of this Universe,
http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/5491/chronosdrax1xc3.th.jpg
Where did you get that "in a Galaxy stuck info"

Originally posted by Horrificus
And YOU were wrong.
How the Hell is this wrong?

To be an actual abstract, you need to represent some fundamental, intangible force, and have mastery over that force.

Originally posted by bigbran
Any skyfather vs someone on Eternity's level, would get there bumhole cleaned out, and then ripped apart.

Eternity is not the only abstact. and the thread says low tier abstract. Now ARes was very high tier abstract in power when he had the God wave. It is one of the most powerful forces in the DCU. Darkseid effective hardened time and space around ares. Does this put Darkseid beyond sky father power? becuz no other sky father could do that. Takion, who many consider high tier sky father, would actually be beyond that, since he effectively halted ares rampage for a time, while ares fought against him. Of course Takion had a direct connection to the source. What is there linking sky father and abstract. cuz on these boards, it seems that every one is either abstract or sky father, but there are clearly beings, like darkseid, takion, tyrant, who are beyond skyfather lvl.

Originally posted by Horrificus
Maelstrom was only able to kill the M-body of Anomaly because he had a portion of Oblivion's power, added to his own.

I'm only clearing up the fact that Maelstrom did not kill the real Anomaly.


Originally posted by Horrificus
Anomaly was able to later recreate himself in the M Universe.

Actually Anomaly didn't have to do anything, since the real Anomaly suffered no damage at the hands of Maelstrom, and the Anomaly has never died.


Originally posted by Horrificus
But, his M body was killed in the universe.

Which is a portion of what the Anomaly trully is.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Now ARes was very high tier abstract in power when he had the God wave. Where do you get your info from?

Originally posted by bigbran
Where do you get your info from?


So you mean to tell me, the God wave, the very abstract thing that powers every single God and super powered being ever in the dcu, is not abstract in power even tho, it itself is abstract?

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
So you mean to tell me, the God wave, the very abstract thing that powers every single God and super powered being ever in the dcu, is not abstract in power even tho, it itself is abstract?

That does not matter. It doesn't mean that he represented a specific universal element. Even if you utilize something, and have mastery over it, you don't just become an abstract.

The guys have to actually BE the thing for which they will be labeled an abstract.

The Godwave is not a pillar of universal reality. It isn't like "Light", or "Heat" or "Size", etc.

Originally posted by Horrificus
That does not matter. It doesn't mean that he represented a specific universal element. Even if you utilize something, and have mastery over it, you don't just become an abstract.

The guys have to actually BE the thing for which they will be labeled an abstract.

The Godwave is not a pillar of universal reality. It isn't like "Light", or "Heat" or "Size", etc.

What are you talking about? Heat is not abstract. Neither is light. these are tangible things. abstacts means something that is an idea of something. Love is abstract. hate is abstract. dream is abstract. For the sake of the thread, I said Ares had high tier abstract power. the God wave is one of the mighties abstract things in the DCU.

time and space aren't exactly abstract (at least not space), and yet...eternity and infinity.

Originally posted by manorastroman
time and space aren't exactly abstract (at least not space), and yet...eternity and infinity.

can you touch space or time? can you see them? then they are definitely abstract.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
can you touch space or time? can you see them? then they are definitely abstract.

This is right out of my philosophy dictionary:

"For examples, properties, relations, propositions and mathematical objects are commonly considered as abstract entities. "

Right?

But, YOU are wrong.

Godwave is a "thing" that actually touches and interacts with reality. It exists. A type of power. Now, if he embodied "Power", period, that would be different.

I am right.

Heat and Cold are measurements. Light is an effect. A perspective. Light is not the same for everything everywhere.

More to come if needed.

Originally posted by Horrificus
This is right out of my philosophy dictionary:

"For examples, properties, relations, propositions and mathematical objects are commonly considered as abstract entities. "

Right?

But, YOU are wrong.

Godwave is a "thing" that actually touches and interacts with reality. It exists. A type of power. Now, if he embodied "Power", period, that would be different.

I am right.

Heat and Cold are measurements. Light is an effect. A perspective. Light is not the same for everything everywhere.

More to come if needed.

Light is not a damn effect. Light is part wave, part particle. Thanks. Color is the effect of light. The God wave was not a thing. Not in the way that you are making it. It was an abstract that touched the universe. kinda how like Death touches the universe. Did you read the story with the God wave in it?

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Light is not a damn effect. Light is part wave, part particle. Thanks. The God wave was not a thing. Not in the way that you are making it. It was an abstract that touched the universe. kinda how like Death touches the universe. Did you read the story with the God wave in it?

the dc godwave is directly from the source, also Ares as Draco has stated before can effortlessly create universes and black holes and such.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Light is not a damn effect. Light is part wave, part particle. Thanks. Color is the effect of light. The God wave was not a thing. Not in the way that you are making it. It was an abstract that touched the universe. kinda how like Death touches the universe. Did you read the story with the God wave in it?

Yes, by definition, it is a wave. But, as viewed by a person, they are not looking at a wave. They are seeing the effect of light. THAT is what I am talking about. The revealing.

Changes to the wave creates a shift in spectrum, which effects what is seen, and how. The type of light, color, etc.

It has many different incarnations. I am talking about light in non-specifics.

And, the Godwave IS a specific. It is a type of power. Like, Gamma Rays for instance.