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Why do many people always assume the worst when they see the confederate flag. The war was not even over the issue of slavery as most people believe.

I think it's difficult for most people to seperate facets in highly emotionally charged situations and symbols. Instead of seeing the confederate flag as a symbol of pride for a certain part of the country and the associated history, people do see it as a declaration of white power and nostalgia for racism.

I live and work in Washington, DC, which is an interesting area because you can drive 2 hours south and run smack into some of those issues.

Think about how people view the Muslim faith currently. It's impossible for some people to seperate Muslims from terrorists, which baffles me. But so many can't see how the extremist views and actions of the terrorists have about as much to do with the real tenets of the Muslim faith as the actions of those who bomb abortion clinics have to do with Christianity.

It's hard for people to see nuances; it's easier to compartmentalize unfortunately.

"separate"


And what the flag actually represents versus the connotations people assign to it are two different things. The confederate flag will never be acceptable in a black neighborhood for what it represents to that group of people just the same as it is welcomed in certain other neighborhoods because of it's traditional and historical connotations, mostly. And when the two shall mix, Ka-boom.

Originally posted by MJOILNIR
Why do many people always assume the worst when they see the confederate flag. The war was not even over the issue of slavery as most people believe.

Like so many things the image, the symbol has become synonymous with issues and ideals of the south during and before the war - the negative ones. And while Slavery might not have been the only issue, it is not like it didn't play a part. While it might be unjust historical views tend to take on a life of their own sometimes, and only negatives will be remembered.

Just like the "Swastika" didn't originate with the Nazis and actually has good connotations in different contexts (mainly ancient ones) however it now bears the weight of the bad actions of a group of people.

Good post. You know I was thinking of this earlier this year. During memorial day. I was cleaning up the family cemetary. Two of my people there fought fo the confederacy. Kentucky infantry. Buried right beside a family member who fought for America during the war of 1812(Navy). I respect the confederate flag and the people who fought under it. Freedom as my ancestors saw it.

Originally posted by clap
"separate"




It's 1:45 am. I commit spelling errors when punchy.

Time to move on, jr. Respect the stars and bars, but leave it in the history texts.

Originally posted by paybacksare
It's 1:45 am. I commit spelling errors when punchy.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Like so many things the image, the symbol has become synonymous with issues and ideals of the south during and before the war - negative ones. And while Slavery might not have been the only issue, it is not like it didn't play a part.

Just like the "Swastika" didn't originate with the Nazis and actually has good connotations in different contexts (mainly ancient ones) however it now bears the weight of the bad actions of a group of people.
Slavery played a much smaller part in the war than most people realize. It was by far more a economic and geographical tug of war. That is a good point about the swastika as well. It was originally a sign of good luck.

Originally posted by clap
Time to move on, jr. Respect the stars and bars, but leave it in the history texts.
jr's an old man

Originally posted by MJOILNIR
Slavery played a much smaller part in the war than most people realize. It was by far more a economic and geographical tug of war. That is a good point about the swastika as well. It was originally a sign of good luck.

Truish, but in national consciousness aspects that deal with emotional issues, injustice/justice, equality, freedom and all that always receive more attention. That slavery could be associated with it sticks in peoples minds, geography and economy just don't get peoples hearts racing (expect for one of my friends studying accounting.)

Thus that. A flag is a bit of cloth. It means nothing without intent and people. It is the people who give it meaning. But for some people they see the flag being a stronghold of ideals, both good and bad, more then just a symbol - hence the whole "Flag Burners should be shot" arguments.

Then you should know better.

I once went to a country music festival in Richmond, VA. I drank an unhealthy amount of bourbon and took my top off and then used the towel my friend threw at me as a cape. The towel, incidentally, was of the confederate flag.

This was not a very memorable night.

Originally posted by paybacksare
I once went to a country music festival in Richmond, VA. I drank an unhealthy amount of bourbon and took my top off and then used the towel my friend threw at me as a cape. The towel, incidentally, was of the confederate flag.

This was not a very memorable night.

Actually it sounds very memorable, but maybe not memorable in a good way.

Originally posted by paybacksare
I once went to a country music festival in Richmond, VA. I drank an unhealthy amount of bourbon and took my top off and then used the towel my friend threw at me as a cape. The towel, incidentally, was of the confederate flag.

This was not a very memorable night.
I beg to differ, it sounds like a very memorable night to me. In fact I remember a few like that

I'm sure it was memorable to every teen in the immediate vicinity.

Originally posted by clap
Then you should know better.
Maybe I should

You know some of the more unsavory men on this forum will be hollering for pics Just to forworn you.

Originally posted by MJOILNIR
Good post. You know I was thinking of this earlier this year. During memorial day. I was cleaning up the family cemetary. Two of my people there fought fo the confederacy. Kentucky infantry. Buried right beside a family member who fought for America during the war of 1812(Navy). I respect the confederate flag and the people who fought under it. Freedom as my ancestors saw it.

Could you explain what that ''freedom'' is?

... and do you still respect that version of freedom?

Originally posted by D-Double
Could you explain what that ''freedom'' is?

... and do you still respect that version of freedom?
The right to travel the Mississippi and other waterways freely and without tax. The right to trade with whatever country they saw fit(i.e sell agricultural goods) ect. Yes I still respect freedom. Its one of the basic foundations of our country.

In addition to its racial/conservative connotations...

The most importat aspect of the US is the Union. Brandishing a flag that is a symbol of anti-Unity is a terrible crime against the concept of America.

Originally posted by MJOILNIR
The right to travel the Mississippi and other waterways freely and without tax. The right to trade with whatever country they saw fit(i.e sell agricultural goods) ect. Yes I still respect freedom. Its one of the basic foundations of our country.

hmm... ok.

Do you feel conflicted at all because of the slavery side of the flag?

The Civil War was not about slavery. Those connotations were after the war.

Originally posted by D-Double
hmm... ok.

Do you feel conflicted at all because of the slavery side of the flag?
There was very little to do with slavery and the flag actually and historically. Slavery was an autracity that spread all over the us, not just the south. I see the battle flag as more a symbol of dying mens sacrifice.

Originally posted by Alliance
In addition to its racial/conservative connotations...

The most importat aspect of the US is the Union. Brandishing a flag that is a symbol of anti-Unity is a terrible crime against the concept of America.
Though the war did threaten the sanctity of the union I dont really see it as a symbol of anti unity.. Like I said above I see it as honoring a dead soldiers sacrifice. I dont really brandish the flag anyway. Its on fallen family members tombstones. I cant ignore their sacrifice. They made the same sacrifice as the ones who fought in the revolutionary war, war of 1812 and Veitnam ect.

Originally posted by MJOILNIR
There was very little to do with slavery and the flag actually and historically. Slavery was an autracity that spread all over the us, not just the south. I see the battle flag as more a symbol of dying mens sacrifice.

... But you don't see the flag as a symbol of holding on to something un-American?

Originally posted by D-Double
... But you don't see the flag as a symbol of holding on to something un-American?
No.. not for me anyway. Im not really holding on to anything. I firmly believe in the sanctity of the union. I may not agree with what they fought for but I will honor their sacrifice just the same as the war of 1812 veteran resting beside them. I dont fly the battle flag but I understand what it meant to the people who fought under it. It was a fight for basic freedoms very much like the ones fought for in the revolutionary war. In fact the revolutionary war was fresh in the minds of many people of the time. It certainly had an influence on the decision to go to war.

Forget whether the war was about slavery or not. The Confederate Battle Flag represents a country that strongly supported the evil of slavery, as opposed to the North which, during the course of the war, moved away from it.

That gave the North a moral edge. European intervention/arbitration in the war got the final nail in its coffin as soon as the North went anit-slavery because the UK and France would not support the obviously more immoral pro-slavery stance- and certainly not against the anti-slavery country.

That is a moral superiority for the North, the legacy of which lasts to this day.

Forget Union- it is not just the US that looks down on the Confederate Battle Flag these days, so all this talk about being heinous against American unity is not the central issue. It is simply a matter of the South being seen as immoral.

Originally posted by MJOILNIR
Why do many people always assume the worst when they see the confederate flag. The war was not even over the issue of slavery as most people believe.

Because most people believe it was about Slavery. They see the South as supporter of Slavery while the North is seen as the liberators. Which is to some extent not far from the truth anyways.

Personally, I believe you should be able to take whatever flag you want. Doesn't matter. But people have certain views of certain flags, and I suppose you will have to deal with it if you want to show them.

Because of ignorance tbh.

Associations are continuously made amung NE'er between the South and the KKK, and that every southerner is related to the KKK in some way, and they all hate blacks etc etc.

But on the other hand, the South could stop calling it the War of Northern Aggression.

Because idiots that wave Confederate flags are just that idiots. Even if the war was not about keeping black people as slaves there is a strong connection to racism prevalent in the south connected to that flag. Also last I checked the South was defeated so put your flag away jackass you aren't rebelling against anything by riding around in your lowered F-150 with your flag hanging out the back.

Originally posted by paybacksare
I once went to a country music festival in Richmond, VA. I drank an unhealthy amount of bourbon and took my top off and then used the towel my friend threw at me as a cape. The towel, incidentally, was of the confederate flag.

This was not a very memorable night.

This could make for a very interesting short story.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Forget whether the war was about slavery or not. The Confederate Battle Flag represents a country that strongly supported the evil of slavery, as opposed to the North which, during the course of the war, moved away from it.

That gave the North a moral edge. European intervention/arbitration in the war got the final nail in its coffin as soon as the North went anit-slavery because the UK and France would not support the obviously more immoral pro-slavery stance- and certainly not against the anti-slavery country.

That is a moral superiority for the North, the legacy of which lasts to this day.

Forget Union- it is not just the US that looks down on the Confederate Battle Flag these days, so all this talk about being heinous against American unity is not the central issue. It is simply a matter of the South being seen as immoral.
I sincerely hope you or anyone else sees the South as immoral. Its a shame that the battle flag ignites that sort of emotion in people.

Originally posted by MJOILNIR
I sincerely hope you or anyone else sees the South as immoral. Its a shame that the battle flag ignites that sort of emotion in people.

Well, in the end it came down to the South wanting to keep Slavery while the North abolished it. Which can also be seen with the racism problem in predominantly the South in the past.

Originally posted by nerf warrior
Because idiots that wave Confederate flags are just that idiots. Even if the war was not about keeping black people as slaves there is a strong connection to racism prevalent in the south connected to that flag. Also last I checked the South was defeated so put your flag away jackass you aren't rebelling against anything by riding around in your lowered F-150 with your flag hanging out the back.
eer Boy, you seem like an intelligent fellow. You come up with that all by yourself genius??

Originally posted by MJOILNIR
eer Boy, you seem like an intelligent fellow. You come up with that all by yourself genius??

I didn't read the thread nor did i feel like going into detail.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, in the end it came down to the South wanting to keep Slavery while the North abolished it. Which can also be seen with the racism problem in predominantly the South in the past.
Not all of the south believed in slavery, contrary to popular belief. Also to point out something from earlier I dont fly the flag.

Originally posted by nerf warrior
I didn't read the thread nor did i feel like going into detail.
You might want to befor you go calling people jackasses and idiots. This is the exact thing I was wanting to avoid by making this thread. I was wanting to put to rest some common misconceptions and stereotypes.

Originally posted by MJOILNIR
You might want to befor you go calling people jackasses and idiots. This is the exact thing I was wanting to avoid by making this thread. I was wanting to put to rest some common misconceptions and stereotypes.

Oh in that case.

The rebel flag is a symbol of freedom and a memorium to what the South was.

Many people in South take their history very seriously and the Rebel flag sums it up. It reminds them of the good old days before the federation really used force to enforce the exsitince of our country as opposed to be being loosly guided and was in reality the first step towards the very large federal government we see today.

In fact part me hopes the South would have won and the country would be different today, not so federal. We are the most free nation in the world, but I think we would be even more free had the south won and the states would have been more powerfull.

Sadly the majority of people who wave the flag are those that I described and think freedom has to do with drinking and shooting guns.

If you can' t express your opinion without putting down another member nerf warrior, then please don' t participate in the debate.

Originally posted by Storm
If you can' t express your opinion without putting down another member nerf warrior, then please don' t participate in the debate.

How did I put down another member?

Originally posted by nerf warrior
We are the most free nation in the world (...)
Come again ?

Originally posted by nerf warrior
Oh in that case.

The rebel flag is a symbol of freedom and a memorium to what the South was.

Many people in South take their history very seriously and the Rebel flag sums it up. It reminds them of the good old days before the federation really used force to enforce the exsitince of our country as opposed to be being loosly guided and was in reality the first step towards the very large federal government we see today.

In fact part me hopes the South would have won and the country would be different today, not so federal. We are the most free nation in the world, but I think we would be even more free had the south won and the states would have been more powerfull.

Sadly the majority of people who wave the flag are those that I described and think freedom has to do with drinking and shooting guns.
Much better than the first. I appreciate it. I'm trying to discourage those stereotypes. IM sure their are idiots out there that do use it for that but its not right at all its also a disgrace and disrespectful.

Originally posted by Kid Kurdy
Come again ?

I come from the USA. We (as in the USA) are the most free nation in the world. If you come from somewhere else chances are you are not as free I am in what I can and can't do, unless you are talking about homosexuality and marjuanna and those are works in progress.

MJOILNIR


Thanks. The problem with the stereotypes is like all stereotypes there is truth in them. Also regarding the Rebel flag it gets a lot of negative press that focuses on the stereotype. So it makes it harder for people to see the truth.

You need to allow the educated to know the truth they already know and let the masses be happy in their ingnorant bliss.

Originally posted by nerf warrior
I come from the USA. We (as in the USA) are the most free nation in the world. If you come from somewhere else chances are you are not as free I am in what I can and can't do, unless you are talking about homosexuality and marjuanna and those are works in progress.

MJOILNIR


Thanks. The problem with the stereotypes is like all stereotypes there is truth in them. Also regarding the Rebel flag it gets a lot of negative press that focuses on the stereotype. So it makes it harder for people to see the truth.

You need to allow the educated to know the truth they already know and let the masses be happy in their ingnorant bliss.

No, not even close. Being wiretapped doesn't constitute "freedom".

No, those aren't works in progress. The Netherlands is an example of a "free" nation.

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
No, not even close. Being wiretapped doesn't constitute "freedom".

No, those aren't works in progress. The Netherlands is an example of a "free" nation.

Wrong.

The grass is greener on the other side.

If you just want to smoke weed and bang hookers I would agree. If that's how you define freedom by all means move to the Netherlands.

How do you feel about free speech? How about guns?

Originally posted by MJOILNIR
Not all of the south believed in slavery, contrary to popular belief. Also to point out something from earlier I dont fly the flag.

Yes, but the South wanted to keep slavery and the north did eventually abolish it. So that is part of what you are saying when flying the flag (you in a general sense)

Anyways, so what do you think are the ideals you want to portray when flying the flag?

Originally posted by nerf warrior
Wrong.

The grass is greener on the other side.

If you just want to smoke weed and bang hookers I would agree. If that's how you define freedom by all means move to the Netherlands.

How do you feel about free speech? How about guns?

Right.

Weed, yes.

Netherlands has minimal government and more laws supporting freedom of ideals than almost any nation

Free Speech is good, and is censored in the US. Guns? What about them?

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
Right.

Weed, yes.

Netherlands has minimal government and more laws supporting freedom of ideals than almost any nation

Free Speech is good, and is censored in the US. Guns? What about them?

Free speech is not censored. If you think that you are a fool.

The netherlands has a quite intruisive government actually, just not when it comes to dictating morals.

One day weed will be legal nationally.

As will gay marriage.

I love debates centered around good, solid information derived from global news headlines. You got Tweedledee and Tweedledum arguing over which nation is more "free" based on things about Holland and the U.S. that constitute about 0.0000000001% of what the country and its "freedoms" are truly comprised of. Sheesh.

Originally posted by botankus
I love debates centered around good, solid information derived from global news headlines. You got tweedledee and tweedledum arguing over who is more "free" based on things about Holland and the U.S. that constitute about 0.0000000001% of what the country and it's "freedoms" are comprised of. Sheesh.

Then what should our argument be based on?

Originally posted by MJOILNIR
I sincerely hope you or anyone else sees the South as immoral. Its a shame that the battle flag ignites that sort of emotion in people.

The South now, no.

But the Confederacy, in its support of slavery, WAS immoral, yes. And the CBF represents that.

Sorry, just the way it is.

Originally posted by botankus
I love debates centered around good, solid information derived from global news headlines. You got Tweedledee and Tweedledum arguing over which nation is more "free" based on things about Holland and the U.S. that constitute about 0.0000000001% of what the country and its "freedoms" are truly comprised of. Sheesh.

but...but...i thought true freedom was defined as the legal right to smoke weed and own firearms

I guess...everyone just go back to watching Mississippi Burning a few times before making a post.

If anyone would like to start a Holland vs. USA debate, that is an entirely different topic, but I really don't think anyone is qualified to participate unless they have spent a significant amount of time in both countries.

Originally posted by botankus
I love debates centered around good, solid information derived from global news headlines. You got Tweedledee and Tweedledum arguing over which nation is more "free" based on things about Holland and the U.S. that constitute about 0.0000000001% of what the country and its "freedoms" are truly comprised of. Sheesh.

STFU the major differnces between the two nations can be found in the issues we are discussing.

If it weren't for his comment about free speech I could almost agree, that on a moral level (only) the Netherlands is more free.

I'm sure you know more about the USA and the Netherlands though so please educate me.

Originally posted by botankus
I guess...everyone just go back to watching Mississippi Burning a few times before making a post.

If anyone would like to start a Holland vs. USA debate, that is an entirely different topic, but I really don't think anyone is qualified to participate unless they have spent significant time in both country.

i spent a week in holland ...although my memory of it all is a bit fuzzy....can i still join?

Originally posted by nerf warrior
STFU the major differnces between the two nations can be found in the issues we are discussing.

If it weren't for his comment about free speech I could almost agree, that on a moral level (only) the Netherlands is more free.

I'm sure you know more about the USA and the Netherlands though so please educate me.


go read a book

Originally posted by nerf warrior
I'm sure you know more about the USA and the Netherlands though so please educate me.
No, but I know how to participate in a debate that makes sense, on topic, and doesn't make me look like some noob from the OTF.

Originally posted by PVS
i spent a week in holland ...although my memory of it all is a bit fuzzy....can i still join?

Did you fire your gun in the air when you were done with the hooker?

Originally posted by Ushgarak
But the Confederacy, in its support of slavery, WAS immoral, yes.

At least is generally seen as immoral.

And, I agree, that's the way it is.

Originally posted by PVS
go read a book

Showing your brillant highschool education again.

And thank you showing your increasing stupidity for picking a fight with PVS.

The following was, by far, my favorite post from this dude:

Originally posted by nerf warrior
The only downside to being white is well nothing, we control the majority of the world and last I checked my penis was larger then most black mens.

Originally posted by botankus
Did you fire your gun in the air when you were done with the hooker?

no cry *leaves*

Originally posted by botankus
The following was, by far, my favorite post from this dude:

no no no. the best one is in my profile

Oh, that is a good one. I'd love to have a link to that debate, and more so to read Floo's response!

Originally posted by MJOILNIR
Though the war did threaten the sanctity of the union I dont really see it as a symbol of anti unity.. Like I said above I see it as honoring a dead soldiers sacrifice. I dont really brandish the flag anyway. Its on fallen family members tombstones. I cant ignore their sacrifice. They made the same sacrifice as the ones who fought in the revolutionary war, war of 1812 and Veitnam ect.

If the flag was used in context during the time of the rebellion, I have no problem with it...its a part of American history (examples on tombstones of confederate soldiers).

However, that flag is the antagonist of Old Glory. Using it in a modern connotation is disgraceful. The south left the Union in an act of military rebellion. They defied the constitution. There was nothing heoric about the South's reasons for rebellion...it was based on misleading propoganda and fearmongering.

I don't think the flag represents sacrifice. Those soldiers should have been serving the US. From this point of view, the confederate soldeirs were traitors. The confederate govenrment was treasonous. The confederate flag represents that. Confederate soldiers might have died fighting for the cause they believed in, but so do terrorists.

Originally posted by botankus
No, but I know how to participate in a debate that makes sense, on topic, and doesn't make me look like some noob from the OTF.



Did you fire your gun in the air when you were done with the hooker?

You are so cute. Is this where all the intellectuals hang out? Well here how's this then.

The south started the war to break away from the North becasue of taxation and the fact that the South was more like little city states then the North which was very much more "united".

Slaves had very little to do with it, until Lincoln freed them. The north didn't care either way except now there was influx of disposable troops. Slavery was already illegal up there. It just put a hurt on the South, because all of sudden there free labor isn't free and bodies are going to the North.

All the racism and hate that is tied to the Rebel flag is the of small groups like the KKK or neo-nazis, not to mention the various militia groups that use it as well and not the south as a whole. To look at the Rebel flag today and go that has connotations of racism is accurate but at the same time is close minded.

The Rebel flag is actually as I have said before a symbol of freedom. They took up arms for very similar reasons that we took up arms against the British during the Revolutionary War.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
The South now, no.

But the Confederacy, in its support of slavery, WAS immoral, yes. And the CBF represents that.

Sorry, just the way it is.
No need to say your sorry. Your more than welcome to your opinion. I respect peoples opinions whether I agree with them or not. I do want to point out that there were a lot more good moral people in the south at the time than immoral.

Originally posted by botankus
Oh, that is a good one. I'd love to have a link to that debate, and more so to read Floo's response!

the steve irwin thread..................of all places

"Rebel" flag...how about traitors?

Lincoln never freed all the slaves...he only freed slaves that weren't in the Union by Jan 1st of 1863. And he had no power to enforce it.

Originally posted by MJOILNIR
No need to say your sorry. Your more than welcome to your opinion. I respect peoples opinions whether I agree with them or not. I do want to point out that there were a lot more good moral people in the south at the time than immoral.

It's about what the flag stands for.not what people lived under the flag. There probably lived some good people in Nazi Germany as well, but if I fly the Nazi flag that is not what I am saying.


So what are the things you think the Confederate Flag stands for?

Originally posted by Bardock42
There probably lived some good people in Nazi Germany as well

naaaah

Originally posted by Alliance
If the flag was used in context during the time of the rebellion, I have no problem with it...its a part of American history (examples on tombstones of confederate soldiers).

However, that flag is the antagonist of Old Glory. Using it in a modern connotation is disgraceful. The south left the Union in an act of military rebellion. They defied the constitution. There was nothing heoric about the South's reasons for rebellion...it was based on misleading propoganda and fearmongering.

I don't think the flag represents sacrifice. Those soldiers should have been serving the US. From this point of view, the confederate soldeirs were traitors. The confederate govenrment was treasonous. The confederate flag represents that. Confederate soldiers might have died fighting for the cause they believed in, but so do terrorists.
Theres a big difference in terrorists and southern soilders. Many were pressed into service, drafted. Many had no choice. I guess also in that point of view revolutionary war veternes were traitors as well??? It was not a military rebellion. It was a political one. Myself I dont believe any point you made in that post. Sorry.

Originally posted by Bardock42
It's about what the flag stands for.not what people lived under the flag. There probably lived some good people in Nazi Germany as well, but if I fly the Nazi flag that is not what I am saying.


So what are the things you think the Confederate Flag stands for?
Me?. Sacrifice. History. Many good men died fighting for the south. It was a war of freedoms no different than the revolutionary war. A war that was still fresh in their minds. It was also war about taxation and free trade despite what some think. Though I do not agree with many of their reasons for fighting I will honor the sacrifice they made.

Originally posted by MJOILNIR
Me?. Sacrifice. History. Many good men died fighting for the south. It was a war of freedoms no different than the revolutionary war. A war that was still fresh in their minds. It was also war about taxation and free trade despite what some think. Though I do not agree with many of their reasons for fighting I will honor the sacrifice they made.

yeah, thats the ticket. i wonder if anyone who flies a confederate flag would have the balls to say why they really do....oh dont mind me...*plays taps for the honored dead on a 20 foot mound of bullshit*

Originally posted by MJOILNIR
Theres a big difference in terrorists and southern soilders. Many were pressed into service, drafted. Many had no choice. I guess also in that point of view revolutionary war veternes were traitors as well??? It was not a military rebellion. It was a political one. Myself I cant find any truths in your post at all. Sorry.

I never called souther solders terrorists...so, read my posts.

Revolutionary war soldiers were traitors...from the British perspective. However, since the colonies one...history sided on the side of the colonists...they weren't traitors and more.

Had the Confederacy won, The north would have considered them traitors, but the Southerners would be fine with it.

The confederacy was a poilitical and a military rebellion... The confedarce attacked the Union. Remember Fort Sumter?

I'm not insulting your relatives or whatever, but the colonist had noble causes...intelectual causes...the Confederates had fear, cowardice, and lies.

Using the confederate flag in a modern context is atrocious.

Originally posted by MJOILNIR
Me?. Sacrifice. History. Many good men died fighting for the south. It was a war of freedoms no different than the revolutionary war. A war that was still fresh in their minds. It was also war about taxation and free trade despite what some think. Though I do not agree with many of their reasons for fighting I will honor the sacrifice they made.

It was totally different...the SOuth barely fought in the revolutionary war...sacrifice is nothing. There is no "honor" in displaying the confederate flag today....not by a longshot. Don't try to cast this as a simple remeberance of fallen soldiers. You wouldn't fly a CCCP or a NAzi flag to remember the sacrifices those osldiers made for their nations.

Originally posted by Alliance
I never called souther solders terrorists...so, read my posts.

Revolutionary war soldiers were traitors...from the British perspective. However, since the colonies one...history sided on the side of the colonists...they weren't traitors and more.

Had the Confederacy won, The north would have considered them traitors, but the Southerners would be fine with it.

The confederacy was a poilitical and a military rebellion... The confedarce attacked the Union. Remember Fort Sumter?

I'm not insulting your relatives or whatever, but the colonist had noble causes...intelectual causes...the Confederates had fear, cowardice, and lies.

Using the confederate flag in a modern context is atrocious.
Your more than welcome to your opinions. I guess I cant just agree with you on all points. I do agree with you on some though. I guess we're just to far away in personal beliefs. Its all good though

Originally posted by Alliance
It was totally different...the SOuth barely fought in the revolutionary war...sacrifice is nothing. There is no "honor" in displaying the confederate flag today....not by a longshot. Don't try to cast this as a simple remeberance of fallen soldiers. You wouldn't fly a CCCP or a NAzi flag to remember the sacrifices those osldiers made for their nations.
But thats exactly what Im casting this as. I made that point clear from the get. Talking about my family cematary And one last time as I have said several times I DO NOT DISPLAY IT. Can I make it any more clear than that. The only battle flag in my possesion is on a tombstone

Originally posted by PVS
yeah, thats the ticket. i wonder if anyone who flies a confederate flag would have the balls to say why they really do....oh dont mind me...*plays taps for the honored dead on a 20 foot mound of bullshit*
Im glad you can so easily disbelieve someone you have never meet. You must be a hell of a man being able to do that. I for one cant tell if someone is sincere or not thru a comp screen Whats your secret? Telepathy? I should have known better I guess.

Originally posted by MJOILNIR
But thats exactly what Im casting this as. I made that point clear from the get. Talking about my family cematary And one last time as I have said several times I DO NOT DISPLAY IT. Can I make it any more clear than that. The only battle flag in my possesion is on a tombstone

And as I said...if its used in hisotrical context its fine, (menaing it was a permenant part of some sort of historical strucutre or document.) I'm not gonna come down and sand off the face of the tombstone.

Originally posted by MJOILNIR
Im glad you can so easily disbelieve someone you have never meet. You must be a hell of a man being able to do that. I for one cant tell if someone is sincere or not thru a comp screen Whats your secret? Telepathy?

hold on, im busy waving around this nazi flag...you know, for the honored dead who sacrificed their lives. it wasnt all about the damn holocaust, you know.
*goose steps*

Originally posted by Alliance
And as I said...if its used in hisotrical context its fine, (menaing it was a permenant part of some sort of historical strucutre or document.) I'm not gonna come down and sand off the face of the tombstone.
Im very glad to hear that.

A European view, based on many newspaper articles: the confederate flag is seen as a symbol of repression, and is associated with slavery. It's use is regarded as an expression of the desire to go back to the past, when black people had no civil rights, and those who fly the flag are regarded as racists.

Originally posted by PVS
hold on, im busy waving around this nazi flag...you know, for the honored dead who sacrificed their lives. it wasnt all about the damn holocaust, you know.
*goose steps*
eer Oh well I tried anyway. Your welcome to your cynical point of view.

Originally posted by MJOILNIR
Im very glad to hear that.

I assumed so. I dont believe in massive censorship. But as I said...it shouln't have any modern context..such as state flags or license plates.

Originally posted by Alliance
I assumed so. I dont believe in massive censorship. But as I said...it shouln't have any modern context..such as state flags or license plates.
I really dont much of an opinion there. I really dont have a problem with it though other than negative publicity. Its never been on my state flag anyway. It is still used as a mascot for a few surrounding high schools though. A couple of organizations have tried to have it removed but couldent do it.

Originally posted by MJOILNIR
eer Oh well I tried anyway. Your welcome to your cynical point of view.

ok, i get your point. the fact is however that the same excuse is used to wave the flag by racist assholes. i understand that you're not trying to justify it, but i have heard those same lines from idiots trying to justify their rebel flag hanging from the back of their rusted out pickup truck.

Originally posted by MJOILNIR
I really dont much of an opinion there. I really dont have a problem with it though other than negative publicity. Its never been on my state flag anyway. It is still used as a mascot for a few surrounding high schools though. A couple of organizations have tried to have it removed but couldent do it.

I'm sure the same people who tired to keep it are the ones trying to ban the flying of the Mexican flag.

Originally posted by Alliance
I'm sure the same people who tired to keep it are the ones trying to ban the flying of the Mexican flag.
Im sure your right. You know each and everyone right????? I mean theres no chance I know them better than you. My god Im absolutly amazed at how well people can sterotype here. I mean hell, movies and media are the best resource for knowing people. Heck I guess you dont even have to have ever meet someone to know their point of view and opinions as long as you have seen some backwards ass movie portraying them.

Originally posted by PVS
ok, i get your point. the fact is however that the same excuse is used to wave the flag by racist assholes. i understand that you're not trying to justify it, but i have heard those same lines from idiots trying to justify their rebel flag hanging from the back of their rusted out pickup truck.
I agree with you there. Thats the image I hate. It gives people like me a bad name. The problem is it is used as an exuse and not meant honestly.

Originally posted by PVS
ok, i get your point. the fact is however that the same excuse is used to wave the flag by racist assholes. i understand that you're not trying to justify it, but i have heard those same lines from idiots trying to justify their rebel flag hanging from the back of their rusted out pickup truck.
I will admit to driving a rusty truck on more than one occasion though

hey, thats ok. its fun when the floorboards rust out, then you can pretend you're fred flintstone

Originally posted by PVS
hey, thats ok. its fun when the floorboards rust out, then you can pretend you're fred flintstone
yea it just kinda sucks going thru mudholes

i drive a japanese car. would they throw eggs at me?

Originally posted by PVS
i drive a japanese car. would they throw eggs at me?
Nah, my trucks a Toyota I do have a Ford also

Originally posted by MJOILNIR
No need to say your sorry. Your more than welcome to your opinion. I respect peoples opinions whether I agree with them or not. I do want to point out that there were a lot more good moral people in the south at the time than immoral.

But the flag is not the people. The flag represents an ideal, and that ideal is permanently and inextricably linked with slavery.

This is not a matter of ignorance. It is very much a matter of historical record that the war started as a result of trade and the issue of State's rights, not a crusade over slavery. It is true that nearly all of the soldiers that fought for the South were no more racist than the ones from the North (as in, pretty racist, but not much to choose between them), that almost none had slaves, and this was mainly because major slaveholders were exempt from the draft. It is true that Confederate soldiers went to war not to keep slavery, but to defend what they saw as their homeland from unjustified attack.

All this is true. But it does not change the fundamental issue here. The war might not have started out about slavery, but it definitely became about slavery. Slavery became the fundamental drive of the war, and it became the ultimate aspiration of the war. It became the political and ideological centre of the war after all the earlier reasons had evaporated. The war gained a cause, because after time it became clear it could only be sensibly fought for a cause.

The Confederacy was ther last major power that supported slavery, one of the great fundamental wrongs of history. Even the Russians abolished serfdomn before the Confederacy was compelled to abolish slavery. We all now see slavery as evil and wrong, and no matter why the Confederate soldiers fought, they were fighting for a state that was imposing this great evil, and not covertly- supporting it openly and proudly, taking it as a basic right.

When the Noirth became anti-slavery, it became morally superior in the eys of the world, and justifably so. Now the war would not be just about union and trade. It would be about bringing something better to the world.

And it did so, and the world is a better place because the North won and destroyed this final bastion of slavery.

And so no matter how brave the Confederate soldiers were, and how remote their sturggle was compared to the political one around them... no matter how great and interesting the Generals were, or the spirit displayed was... none of this changes the fact that the Confederacy was supporting a fundamental evil. That flag represents that evil. And so it will always be looked down upon.

It is forever tainted.

Again your welcome to your opinion but not everyone shares it. Its is not nearly so looked down on. You can believe that if you want but it dosnt make it so. Maybe in your eyes but not others. Also even if its is linked in many eyes that also does not make it so. A battle flag represents the people fighting under it. Thats the very definition of a battle flag. It does not support the ideals, espically ideals that were linked to it afters its inception and the start of the war. Thats just nonsense.

But it IS looked down upon. That is not opinion, it is fact- you bemoan such a fact in your opening post!

I was explaining why, and that is how it is.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
But it IS looked down upon. That is not opinion, it is fact- you bemoan such a fact in your opening post!

I was explaining why, and that is how it is.
The whole idea of the post is to debunk the reason. I believe I have clearly givin reasons why it shouldent be. I know it is and most likely always will be but I think the reasoning is wrong. Linking ideals to a flag that existed for other reasons is wrong and incorrect. I do understand why you posted what you did. Im just trying to explain my views.

Originally posted by MJOILNIR
The whole idea of the post is to debunk the reason. I believe I have clearly givin reasons why it shouldent be. I know it is and most likely always will be but I think the reasoning is wrong.

you only gave an exception. this proves nothing.

Originally posted by PVS
you only gave an exception. this proves nothing.
If its any exception at all it proves there is a misconception.

Originally posted by MJOILNIR
If its any exception at all it proves there is a misconception.

no it doesnt. it only proves that you're use of the icon is an exception. you cant turn that around and use that as proof that the majority of people who celebrate that icon are not racist scum.

Originally posted by PVS
no it doesnt. it only proves that you're use of the icon is an exception. you cant turn that around and use that as proof that the majority of people who celebrate that icon are not racist scum.
Theres no way of proving that the majority are either. Many certainly, the majority? very questionable. Its also stereotyping plain and simple.

Originally posted by MJOILNIR
Theres no way of proving that the majority are either. Many certainly, the majority? very questionable. Its also stereotyping plain and simple.

if the shoe fits. i would stereotype anyone with a tattoo of hitler as a racist...that makes me prejudice, yes


...but...wrong?

Originally posted by PVS
if the shoe fits. i would stereotype anyone with a tattoo of hitler as a racist...that makes me prejudice, but......wrong?
Big difference in hitler and what were talking about. There probably, stereotyping about a flag, yes...wrong and many times incorrect. Thats no different than all the hillbilly and redneck jokes Ive seen on this forum. All stereotypes can ultimately(and often) be incorrect. Thats the very nature of stereotypes, an uninformed and without fact, opinion.

Originally posted by MJOILNIR
Why do many people always assume the worst when they see the confederate flag. The war was not even over the issue of slavery as most people believe. As a shallow minded Scot and like most of my countrymen I automatically associate the Confederate flag with the Dukes of Hazzard.

Originally posted by amity75
As a shallow minded Scot and like most of my countrymen I automatically associate the Confederate flag with the Dukes of Hazzard.

Originally posted by amity75
As a shallow minded Scot and like most of my countrymen I automatically associate the Confederate flag with the Dukes of Hazzard.

Wow...me too. Only I've studied history, but I still do it.

If you ever see a Rebel Flag on the front of a pickup, then its a safe assumption that the person driving is a typical good ol' boy.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
typical good ol' boy.


Never meanin' no harm

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Never meanin' no harm Beats all you ever saw been in trouble with the law since the day they was born.

straghtnin' the curves....flatnin' the hills....

Confederate Flag is the symbol. It is a symbol of people who once stood up in order to defend their belief.
Regarding the problem of slavery. I am not sure whether we can say the other side was fighting for Slave Freedom. It was simply a matter of receiving more political power and control.

Whos surprised I havent posted in here yet..come on..show yourselves!

Originally posted by KidRock
Whos surprised I havent posted in here yet..come on..show yourselves!

i just figured you were busy helping to plan your next klan rally.

Originally posted by PVS
i just figured you were busy helping to plan your next klan rally.

ahah touche`

wow