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Setting is the throne room in the second Death Star.

Lightsabers and Force.

Who wins?

Maul.
*waits for JollyJim to start posting average feats from ROTJ Luke from SWtimeline.*

Originally posted by Jen'ari
Maul.


Luke beat Vader though, who Maul would lose against.

If you think with that logic, as some people here do, then Maul loses.

Well Luke did beat Vader, but...

Lol, I mean, don't get me wrong, I KNOW who would definantly win this one...

But I still want to see people's opinions.

Maul wins this one(Luke gets scared and pisses himself) by intimidation alone...(Vader was not as dexteritous)

Originally posted by superstoner
(Luke gets scared and pisses himself)

Originally posted by Jen'ari
Maul.
*waits for JollyJim to start posting average feats from ROTJ Luke from SWtimeline.*

Or you could just post excerpts from the ROTJ novelization which kind of makes it clear Luke is nearly as powerful as Vader. Even if you accept the premise Vader was "holding back" (which doesn't seem he would be from the novel and explains why), Luke's still powerful.

Yes, yes - I know he's Luke "Louisville Slugger" Skywalker, but still he'd give Maul a good fight either way. Just to post from the novelization, in which I'm not making an actual case for Luke, just showing what it says:

"The gladiators battled fiercely, sparks flying from the clash of their radiant weapons, but it was soon evident that the advantage was all Luke's. And he was pressing it."

Obviously from this we can tell even if Darth Grenadier wasn't fighting "for his life" so to say, he was still fighting as it says "fiercely", which in this context I'd take it as intensely. He wasn't toying with Luke, or just letting him get an advantage.

"His anger was layered, now - he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight... then he could do that, too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness."

This part if I remember correctly, is when Luke turns off his saber after kicking Vader down the flight of stairs. And clearly after what I've put in bold it's saying that Vader was serious.

"This accusation really made Vader angry. He could tolerate much from the insolent child, but this was insufferable. He must teach this boy a lesson he would never forget, or die learning."

Indicating again just for the sake of it that Vader was willing to kill Luke, and he wasn't just fighting half assed.

"It was in his hands, now, he knew it was: he could take Vader. Take his blade, take his life. Take his place at the Emperor's side. Yes, even that. Luke didn't bury the thought, this time; he gloried in it."

This could be construed as the narrator voicing what Luke thought indirectly, of course. However, the first excerpt I showed indicates this, indeed, seems to be correct.

"Blow upon blow, Luke forced Vader to retreat - back, onto the bridge that crossed the vast, seemingly bottomless shaft to the power core. Each stroke of Luke's saber pummeled Vader, like accusations, like screams, like shards of hate. The Dark Lord was driven to his knees. He raised his blade to block yet another onslaught - and Luke slashed Vader's right hand off at the wrist."

Now coming from what we know, if Luke was so insignificant on the grand scale at the time of ROTJ, I doubt just getting pissed and rushing Vader would actually force him to fall back, force him to block constantly and with apparent trouble, and so on. And we note that Vader definitely didn't try to let Luke to do that, he wasn't giving up space just because Luke was his son. He was trying to block, but to no avail.

Obviously their duel in ROTJ has a vast difference from what happened in ESB. And it seems kind of "iffy" to assume Luke got so much more powerful that he's able to take down Vader now, especially when you consider once Vader stopped toying with him in ESB, he sliced his hand off. But, Vader does comment numerous times on Luke's apparent skill, such as his speed and the fact that "Vader watched Luke. His boy was powerful, stronger than he'd imagined".

Just putting that out there for people who say ROTJ Luke sucks (I used to think that, and still do kind of, but hey). I mean, the novelization may be completely wrong, however, the last part I gave is almost exactly written how it is in the script, so I wouldn't count the novel out on the subject.

In any case, I really don't care who would win. Luke can give a tough fight, and so can Maul.

THe only reason people think Luke sucks is because of his terrible fighting style. Who cares about ir really? It's not like Luke had time to learn specfic forms, so he picked up what he could. Does that make him any less powerful than he was supposed to be? Hell no.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
THe only reason people think Luke sucks is because of his terrible fighting style. Who cares about ir really? It's not like Luke had time to learn specfic forms, so he picked up what he could. Does that make him any less powerful than he was supposed to be? Hell no.

Well, I partly disagree with that. If Luke had been taught a specific form, like Makshi or dare i say Vaapad then he would be a hell of a lot better at the time of ROTJ. However he just had to improvise, diminishing his skill.

still i say he he pisses AND sh--its himself........shitshitshitshitshitshit

I believe this thread was used before. Anyway, ROTJ Luke put a helluva fight against Vader. Vader is more powerful than Count Dooku. But Vader could have been holding back against Luke since Luke is his son and he wanted to join the Dark Side. But Vader acknowledges Luke's power. I would say Luke would tie with Maul or Maul might somehow win due to his experience and skill.

I go by the movies, and Luke sucked ass.

Originally posted by Jen'ari
I go by the movies, and Luke sucked dick.

Luke sucked ass due to choreography. In those days, the technology doesn't allow fights to be fast.

Plus Mark Hamill is not a swordsmen, he just hit sticks with Vader whos in a heavy suit. He can't fight fast.

If the same duel between Vader vs. Luke occured today, Luke would rock.

If you go by the movies then Maul cause he was amazing while Luke was only perhaps avg. If you go by EU then Maul probably still wins cause look at how he pwnd all of Black Sun at once and then look at Luke in SOTE only destroying a small portion of Blackn Sun with help and having about as much if not more trouble than had. And ROTJ Luke ain't that much stronger than SOTE Luke.

As said before, Maul would have died at the black sun unless the stupidity of the guard.

And Luke did become almost as powerful as Vader, which we have agreed at this forum is better than Maul. It should at least be a tough match right?

The guard was stupid and therefor weak, Maul beat him fair and square. I'd put Luke on par with Qui-Gon.

I'd put ROTJ Luke below TPM Obi-Wan personally. I can see him doing as good a job as Luke did against Vader if Vader had been holding back.

But Luke held back too, kicked Vader down the stairs pretty easily. And the novel describes the fight as..(from what I remember) "unlike the fight in the cloud city early, this was a fight between equals". They were both very close in power, and they were both fighting.....


And the guard could have killed him. I guess Maul completed it thanks to that, and it was the guards personality, but still. He didn't have quite the skill enough to get away without problem....

Novelisations of the films are so contradictory on so many levels that I don't trust them. Luke sucks imo.

That's right, "IMO". The novels are canon, as canon as the movies, however if they contradict they are false on just that matter. And I don't see how your opinion about the fight makes the novelisation contradict the movie.... (If that is what you meant)

That's bs, no way ROTJ Luke could have done what Vader did in Purge and ROTJ Vader > Purge Vader so there's no way Luke = ROTJ Vader.

Originally posted by kamikz
I AM STILL RETARDED quit saying that kamikz, we already knowangel_notangel_not

Originally posted by darthsith19
That's bs, no way ROTJ Luke could have done what Vader did in Purge and ROTJ Vader > Purge Vader so there's no way Luke = ROTJ Vader.


Nope, because ROTJ Luke doesn't have that kind of experience, and not against many. But against Vader alone, he was pretty close. It is described well in the script and the novelisation.


And superstoner, what the hell do you have against me? If you can't stand with someone disagreeing with you, get the hell out of here.

I don't consider them as canon. I know technically they are, but I don't buy many aspects of them. My interpretation of the highest form of canon > secondary canon source material that contradicts the primary form, in my eyes.

Originally posted by kamikz
Nope, because ROTJ Luke doesn't have that kind of experience, and not against many. But against Vader alone, he was pretty close. It is described well in the script and the novelisation.


And superstoner, what the hell do you have against me? If you can't stand with someone disagreeing with you, get the hell out of here. dude i was just messin with you. you're ok i was just playing around.. DAMN!!!

I do that with anyone I think is cool so don't take it personally

Ok, I got three things to say....

1. It is against the rules to change someones quote, you could get banned!
2. It is very hard to detect sarcasm and jokes on the internet.
3. It wasn't funny.....


There.


But it's cool.

sorry.. forgive mebawlingbawling

If it was at least funny...

Originally posted by superstoner
sorry.. forgive mebawlingbawling



Nah it's cool man! I appreciate you saying that!

Luke:
Effortlessly subdues two guards using the force while walking on through the gate.
Had Boba Fett beaten.
Lifted c-3p0 off the ground and around with no hand gestures or strain.
Was taught by Obi Wan and Yoda to be able to defeat Vader.
Beat Vader
Deflected speeder bike fire and defeated a scout easily.
Began to lift an X-Wing as of Episode 5.

Has a million small feats from comics and books. In Shadows of the Empire alone he deflected swoop bike fire behind his back, kicking a thug off a moving swoop, and rode it away in one motion ( http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=101&page=62 ), deflected many of Xizor's shots, who practices constantly, inspires awe into mercs (who have great respect for Jedi, so they would probably know of their abilities) with the speed of his lightsaber and his actual movement, made Vader think that Luke has even more potential than Anakin had, and surprised even Vader as to how fast he had become powerful, and a lot more.

that's so incredibile it makes ragnos wiping his ass with luke seem near impossible..by ROTJ

Originally posted by Jen'ari
I don't consider them as canon. I know technically they are, but I don't buy many aspects of them. My interpretation of the highest form of canon > secondary canon source material that contradicts the primary form, in my eyes.

Novelizations are as canon as comics, or anything else. Nothing in the movie contradicts what was written in the novelization of ROTJ in terms of the fight. Your "interpretation" isn't a high source to go on. I could interpret the movies as Sidious being a better swordsman than Mace, and only "faking" the saber dueling part or that Grievous completely sucks. The novelizations add on to the fact, they are more canon then your simple "interpretations". No one cares what you consider canon, because plain and simple - they are. What's written pertaining to the fight isn't contradicty to what's shown in the movies, in fact, the script has written an almost exact same thing as the novel about when Luke started swinging his saber around like a mad man.

Novelization > Your opinion. If I just watched ROTJ for the first time - I'd say Luke > Vader, however, from reading other EU material, I realize it's not exactly the case.

The movies are a higher form of canon than the books, ergo I can place my interpretation of the movies over the books. This isn't going against canon policy, I can do it. Luke was terrible in the movies. So were Vader and Old Ben. They were slow.

Originally posted by Advent
Novelizations are as canon as comics, or anything else. Nothing in the movie contradicts what was written in the novelization of ROTJ in terms of the fight. Your "interpretation" isn't a high source to go on. I could interpret the movies as Sidious being a better swordsman than Mace, and only "faking" the saber dueling part or that Grievous completely sucks. The novelizations add on to the fact, they are more canon then your simple "interpretations". No one cares what you consider canon, because plain and simple - they are. What's written pertaining to the fight isn't contradicty to what's shown in the movies, in fact, the script has written an almost exact same thing as the novel about when Luke started swinging his saber around like a mad man.

Novelization > Your opinion. If I just watched ROTJ for the first time - I'd say Luke > Vader, however, from reading other EU material, I realize it's not exactly the case. jen'ari has been officially wtfpwned...by the hot chick

Reported for trolling.

dude ??? anyways decent fight but maul wins due to experince and intimidation

Originally posted by Jen'ari
The movies are a higher form of canon than the books, ergo I can place my interpretation of the movies over the books. This isn't going against canon policy, I can do it. Luke was terrible in the movies. So were Vader and Old Ben. They were slow.

Incorrect. You can not place your personal interpretation above a canonical interpretation of the movie. Clearly I do not see "G-Canon: This is defined by the movies, and Jen'ari's biased/tainted/simple interpretation". Jenny, you are not a canon source. You can not base an argument off purely what you see in the movies, because:

1.) Interpretations differ. For example, Rampant Ox would undoubtedly say Dooku > Anakin or whoever if we allowed his interpretations of the movie to go. With EU material, we see this is not the case. If I say Luke was very good, and the best saber duelist I've ever seen. Am I right? According to you, I am because it's my interpretation. According to you, I could say Sidious was leagues above Mace in saber combat, I could say Grievous sucks, I could say TPM Kenobi is a saber god, and better than Qui-Gon.

Of course, if this was a movie debate forum - I could do all that, however, this is not a pure movie versus forum. It includes EU, ergo we're going to include EU material. EU Material > Your interpretations. Quit being such a twit, you're completely wrong.

2.) No one cares what you "interpret" things as frankly. Because you're trumped by actual canon material.

And plus, these little "interpretations" can go either way, purely because - as I've already said - they differ. I may view things one way, you may another way. Who's right in matters pertaining to "delicate" subjects? Ah, yeah. I think whichever side the canon material that is called a "novelization", is right. Obviously, you must think yourself to be high and mighty. Sorry, Jenny, you're not.

Originally posted by Jen'ari
The movies are a higher form of canon than the books, ergo I can place my interpretation of the movies over the books. This isn't going against canon policy, I can do it. Luke was terrible in the movies. So were Vader and Old Ben. They were slow.

See! This guy knows what he's talking about! Luke, Vader, Old Ben, and Mace were all slow! If we just ignore all EU about the characters, then we can make the ones we want to suck be horrible in our own minds! Mace is a really slow fighter, and, his fastest running, is a slow trot (when he ran to attack Jango)! He would be owned by Zett (a small padawan), who can at least move his saber at a decent speed like when the clones attacked him.

hahahaha

Originally posted by Advent
Incorrect. You can not place your personal interpretation above a canonical interpretation of the movie. Clearly I do not see "G-Canon: This is defined by the movies, and Jen'ari's biased/tainted/simple interpretation". Jenny, you are not a canon source. You can not base an argument off purely what you see in the movies, because:

1.) Interpretations differ. For example, Rampant Ox would undoubtedly say Dooku > Anakin or whoever if we allowed his interpretations of the movie to go. With EU material, we see this is not the case. If I say Luke was very good, and the best saber duelist I've ever seen. Am I right? According to you, I am because it's my interpretation. According to you, I could say Sidious was leagues above Mace in saber combat, I could say Grievous sucks, I could say TPM Kenobi is a saber god, and better than Qui-Gon.

Of course, if this was a movie debate forum - I could do all that, however, this is not a pure movie versus forum. It includes EU, ergo we're going to include EU material. EU Material > Your interpretations. Quit being such a twit, you're completely wrong.

2.) No one cares what you "interpret" things as frankly. Because you're trumped by actual canon material.

And plus, these little "interpretations" can go either way, purely because - as I've already said - they differ. I may view things one way, you may another way. Who's right in matters pertaining to "delicate" subjects? Ah, yeah. I think whichever side the canon material that is called a "novelization", is right. Obviously, you must think yourself to be high and mighty. Sorry, Jenny, you're not.

You miss my point. I'm not saying that my interpretation is definitely right. All I'm saying is that it is perfectly valid as I am basing it off of the movies, the highest form of canon.

'Who's right in matters pertaining to "delicate" subjects?'
It depends. It works the same way as logical deduction. Whoever can make a case which makes more sense and is more persuasive and logical is usually the one considered to be correct.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
See! This guy knows what he's talking about! Luke, Vader, Old Ben, and Mace were all slow! If we just ignore all EU about the characters, then we can make the ones we want to suck be horrible in our own minds! Mace is a really slow fighter, and, his fastest running, is a slow trot (when he ran to attack Jango)! He would be owned by Zett (a small padawan), who can at least move his saber at a decent speed like when the clones attacked him.

Not really. Mace fought fine.

Umm, no he didn't. Samuel Jackson and Ian McDiarmid were fighting. They are both kinda old and fight slow, if I just based my decisions on the movies, then Obi-Wan > Mace Windu.

Not in my opinion! By the way, my opinion is on the same level of canon as the movies, so, Mace sucks.

Originally posted by Jen'ari
You miss my point. I'm not saying that my interpretation is definitely right. All I'm saying is that it is perfectly valid as I am basing it off of the movies, the highest form of canon.

Except you are ignoring other canon material. If you didn't choose to ignore other facts, then your "interpretation" is trumped. In this case especially considering we include all EU that is canon for our versus arguments.

In terms of purely movie-wise, your opinion can be valid, however, we don't work that way. We are not purely a movie based versus forum. So deal with it. No one cares what you "interpret" because it's trumped by canon material that is far more valid than anything you have to say.

Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn what your "interpretations" are or how you *think* things should be. The fact of the matter is, novelizations are canon, and in terms of the SWVF, are far greater than simple minded interpretations. For you to even say that your little perceptions are greater is purely ridiculous. But of course, that's par when dealing with you. I've grown accustomed to it.



Except even if one more case makes more sense, it doesn't mean it's right. As I said, we don't operate on a strictly movie basis. If we did, some people would be able to construe an argument that seemed practically sound, but once you take a look at the Expanded Universe - are completely wrong.

Keep in mind, I really could care less how "other forums" or "other people" do it or want to make it seem, because when we discuss how to debate/what is canon/what goes/etc., we deal with KMC. In this topic, it's EU included, and the Expanded Universe > Your opinion of the movie.

Advent:

'Except you are ignoring other canon material. If you didn't choose to ignore other facts, then your "interpretation" is trumped. In this case especially considering we include all EU that is canon for our versus arguments.'

I am only ignoring other secondary canon material because it contradicts what I interpret the movies to present. You seem to think that I am arguing against canon. This isn't the case. The movies are the highest form of canon, yet are open to much more interpretation than the books are. My interpretation of the movies = the movies (in my eyes) = highest form of canon. I don't see how you are not getting this, it's simple stuff. I can place my interpretation of the movies over any lower forms of canon - this is not going against canon policy. I'm not saying I'm definitely right, I'm just saying that you can't refute it by posting excerpts from lower forms of canon because I am within my rights to disregard those pieces of secondary canon because it contradicts what I perceive to be the highest from of canon.

'In terms of purely movie-wise, your opinion can be valid, however, we don't work that way. We are not purely a movie based versus forum. So deal with it. No one cares what you "interpret" because it's trumped by canon material that is far more valid than anything you have to say.'

However, the movies take priority. The thing you don't get is that the movies are visual representation which means that much is left to the interpretation of the audience (we don't get to hear what the characters are thinking for instance) which means that there is no definite route that certain aspects of the movie go by, therefor we have to make our own interpretation of the movies, and that in our eyes is the movies. It works the same way when people debate over assumptions (debating isn't always about facts, deduction and interpretation are completely valid).

'Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn what your "interpretations" are or how you *think* things should be. The fact of the matter is, novelizations are canon, and in terms of the SWVF, are far greater than simple minded interpretations. For you to even say that your little perceptions are greater is purely ridiculous. But of course, that's par when dealing with you. I've grown accustomed to it.'

Weren't you going to try and be a bit more civil?

@JollyJim:

'Not in my opinion! By the way, my opinion is on the same level of canon as the movies, so, Mace sucks.'

You completely miss the point. I'm not placing my opinions over the opinions of others, or saying that what I think is definite. I'm just placing how I interpret the highest form of canon over secondary canon material. Also, not to be rude but I have completely disregarded your opinion ever since you claimed that Luke was a force god because he could lift C 3PO with the force.

Originally posted by Jen'ari
Advent:

'Except you are ignoring other canon material. If you didn't choose to ignore other facts, then your "interpretation" is trumped. In this case especially considering we include all EU that is canon for our versus arguments.'

I am only ignoring other secondary canon material because it contradicts what I interpret the movies to present. You seem to think that I am arguing against canon. This isn't the case. The movies are the highest form of canon, yet are open to much more interpretation than the books are. My interpretation of the movies = the movies (in my eyes) = highest form of canon. I don't see how you are not getting this, it's simple stuff. I can place my interpretation of the movies over any lower forms of canon - this is not going against canon policy. I'm not saying I'm definitely right, I'm just saying that you can't refute it by posting excerpts from lower forms of canon because I am within my rights to disregard those pieces of secondary canon because it contradicts what I perceive to be the highest from of canon.

'In terms of purely movie-wise, your opinion can be valid, however, we don't work that way. We are not purely a movie based versus forum. So deal with it. No one cares what you "interpret" because it's trumped by canon material that is far more valid than anything you have to say.'

However, the movies take priority. The thing you don't get is that the movies are visual representation which means that much is left to the interpretation of the audience (we don't get to hear what the characters are thinking for instance) which means that there is no definite route that certain aspects of the movie go by, therefor we have to make our own interpretation of the movies, and that in our eyes is the movies. It works the same way when people debate over assumptions (debating isn't always about facts, deduction and interpretation are completely valid).

'Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn what your "interpretations" are or how you *think* things should be. The fact of the matter is, novelizations are canon, and in terms of the SWVF, are far greater than simple minded interpretations. For you to even say that your little perceptions are greater is purely ridiculous. But of course, that's par when dealing with you. I've grown accustomed to it.'

Weren't you going to try and be a bit more civil?

@JollyJim:

'Not in my opinion! By the way, my opinion is on the same level of canon as the movies, so, Mace sucks.'

You completely miss the point. I'm not placing my opinions over the opinions of others, or saying that what I think is definite. I'm just placing how I interpret the highest form of canon over secondary canon material. Also, not to be rude but I have completely disregarded your opinion ever since you claimed that Luke was a force god because he could lift C 3PO with the force.
Your really not hearing what Advent is trying to say to you are you Jen'ari? Your opinions mean nothing when there is a canon source saying otherwise. ANY canon material is like evidence, evidence> opinions, no matter what the case.

I makes absolutely no difference if your opinion of events is based on a higher canon source or a lower one, ANY canon source trumps your opinion.

G-Canon> C-Canon> Peoples opinions.

It's more than just an opinion. It's how I perceive the highest form of canon to be. My 'opinion' is exactly what the highest form of canon (the movies) is to me.
It's pretty simple really. The movies can be interpreted through a number of different ways, it's not as factual as the books are. The thing is, nobody is telling you how to interpret many aspects of the movies which are open to interpretation. This means that we are within are right to make interpretations of what the movies are actually displaying, and to us, that interpretation = the movies. I'm not saying that my interpretation is definitely right, but until it is refuted by either common sense or evidence from the movies, it is perfectly valid.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
See! This guy knows what he's talking about! Luke, Vader, Old Ben, and Mace were all slow! If we just ignore all EU about the characters, then we can make the ones we want to suck be horrible in our own minds! Mace is a really slow fighter, and, his fastest running, is a slow trot (when he ran to attack Jango)! He would be owned by Zett (a small padawan), who can at least move his saber at a decent speed like when the clones attacked him.


Oh, um, forgot to mention somthing.
All-out speed insen't the end all be all to a fight.

The reason Mace trotted to Jango was because he employed a great deal of control to his stride, so as not to overextend himself.

Vader and Old Ben fought the way they did in ANH, because they both already knew each other's moves down to the finest degree.
They both had also mastered their styles down to the finest degree.
Slow, deliberate and controlled movements were used in a duel between two Masters who knew each other down to the depth's of their souls.
Blade taps were used instead of all-out swings, because both knew they only needed a tap to cause death or incapacitation.

Now, if you need more clarification on what I mean, it is a very interesting notion.
I suggest if any of you out there know any Martial Artists at all, you should show them the duel and ask their interpretation of it.
Likely, It'll be the same as what I said.

Try it.

maul far more experience

Originally posted by Darth Sexiest
Oh, um, forgot to mention somthing.
All-out speed insen't the end all be all to a fight.

The reason Mace trotted to Jango was because he employed a great deal of control to his stride, so as not to overextend himself.

Vader and Old Ben fought the way they did in ANH, because they both already knew each other's moves down to the finest degree.
They both had also mastered their styles down to the finest degree.
Slow, deliberate and controlled movements were used in a duel between two Masters who knew each other down to the depth's of their souls.
Blade taps were used instead of all-out swings, because both knew they only needed a tap to cause death or incapacitation.

Now, if you need more clarification on what I mean, it is a very interesting notion.
I suggest if any of you out there know any Martial Artists at all, you should show them the duel and ask their interpretation of it.
Likely, It'll be the same as what I said.

Try it.



Oh yeah, same thing with Mace VS Sidious.

Originally posted by Advent
Or you could just post excerpts from the ROTJ novelization which kind of makes it clear Luke is nearly as powerful as Vader. Even if you accept the premise Vader was "holding back" (which doesn't seem he would be from the novel and explains why), Luke's still powerful.

Yes, yes - I know he's Luke "Louisville Slugger" Skywalker, but still he'd give Maul a good fight either way. Just to post from the novelization, in which I'm not making an actual case for Luke, just showing what it says:

"The gladiators battled fiercely, sparks flying from the clash of their radiant weapons, but it was soon evident that the advantage was all Luke's. And he was pressing it."

Obviously from this we can tell even if Darth Grenadier wasn't fighting "for his life" so to say, he was still fighting as it says "fiercely", which in this context I'd take it as intensely. He wasn't toying with Luke, or just letting him get an advantage.

"His anger was layered, now - he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight... then he could do that, too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness."

This part if I remember correctly, is when Luke turns off his saber after kicking Vader down the flight of stairs. And clearly after what I've put in bold it's saying that Vader was serious.

"This accusation really made Vader angry. He could tolerate much from the insolent child, but this was insufferable. He must teach this boy a lesson he would never forget, or die learning."

Indicating again just for the sake of it that Vader was willing to kill Luke, and he wasn't just fighting half assed.

"It was in his hands, now, he knew it was: he could take Vader. Take his blade, take his life. Take his place at the Emperor's side. Yes, even that. Luke didn't bury the thought, this time; he gloried in it."

This could be construed as the narrator voicing what Luke thought indirectly, of course. However, the first excerpt I showed indicates this, indeed, seems to be correct.

"Blow upon blow, Luke forced Vader to retreat - back, onto the bridge that crossed the vast, seemingly bottomless shaft to the power core. Each stroke of Luke's saber pummeled Vader, like accusations, like screams, like shards of hate. The Dark Lord was driven to his knees. He raised his blade to block yet another onslaught - and Luke slashed Vader's right hand off at the wrist."

Now coming from what we know, if Luke was so insignificant on the grand scale at the time of ROTJ, I doubt just getting pissed and rushing Vader would actually force him to fall back, force him to block constantly and with apparent trouble, and so on. And we note that Vader definitely didn't try to let Luke to do that, he wasn't giving up space just because Luke was his son. He was trying to block, but to no avail.

Obviously their duel in ROTJ has a vast difference from what happened in ESB. And it seems kind of "iffy" to assume Luke got so much more powerful that he's able to take down Vader now, especially when you consider once Vader stopped toying with him in ESB, he sliced his hand off. But, Vader does comment numerous times on Luke's apparent skill, such as his speed and the fact that "Vader watched Luke. His boy was powerful, stronger than he'd imagined".

Just putting that out there for people who say ROTJ Luke sucks (I used to think that, and still do kind of, but hey). I mean, the novelization may be completely wrong, however, the last part I gave is almost exactly written how it is in the script, so I wouldn't count the novel out on the subject.

In any case, I really don't care who would win. Luke can give a tough fight, and so can Maul.


Btw, Great post, Advent.

Originally posted by Jen'ari
It's more than just an opinion. It's how I perceive the highest form of canon to be. My 'opinion' is exactly what the highest form of canon (the movies) is to me.

Jenny, you don't get the point. Your opinion is just that - an opinion. If you place what you think happens above canon material, then you're being purely ridiculous. I can view the "highest form of canon" as say, Sidious is above Mace in lightsaber dueling by leagues, he was only acting. Or I could say Grievous sucks ass, Obi-Wan is weak, etc. Now, you're saying that what I view it as is on a higher plane than other source material that refers directly to the movie. This is not right, because if your views are trumped by canonical material (e.g. novels), then they are plainly invalid. A view, which can be tainted, biased, subjective, etc. has no value over other canon material that is not contradictory.

The movies are the highest form of canon, true; but how is your simple interpretation of them higher than canon interpretations? Which are basically just facts. Facts > Opinion. It does not matter how you "view" the movie, because as I said - we do not operate on a strictly movie basis, we include all Expanded Universe material. And the novelizations are actually canon, your "opinion" is not, ergo you can't be spewing this bullshit.



It is. But obviously you don't understand simple facts, and thus turn the situation into a Gordian knot, lol. This debate doesn't need to be complex, it's clear cut. Novelizations, a.k.a "canon interpretations" (rather 'fact', but for the sake of it) > Your interpretations.



No, it does not. Personal interpretations have no value in terms of dealing with situations which include the EU. Especially over EU material that conforms to the movie. Things such as the Mace Windu and Sidious fight are elaborated upon. The Anakin vs. Obi-Wan fight is elaborated upon. So, how is a canon "interpretation" (fact) lower on scale than your opinion? Considering novelizations are on the list of canon things, opinions are not. Novelizations have the LFL stamp. Your "opinion" does not.

The point must be completely flying over your head (though, I can't see how as its so big). Novelizations = canon. You = not canon. Novelizations contain fact, "interpretations" are basically speculation - whether supported or not. It's still an assumption.

Some things in the movie are left open to interpretation completely, in which even the EU doesn't give answer to. For example, how Anakin was born. It's up to the viewer. In terms of this versus forum, and when including EU - things such as why Anakin lost at Mustafar, why Dooku fled the fight with Yoda, etc. are not open for anymore interpretation because the EU has given answers. Answers. My Buddha, we include EU material here - EU material > anything you *think*.



No, on subjects such as "who created Anakin?", things that are not answered specifically are valid as another. I could say Plagueis created Anakin, you could say he was born through the Force, etc. Which one is right?

Answer: They are both as valid, because that specifically is open to interpretation. And for the most part, the EU has left that unanswered. Other things that are answered in EU (specifically novelizations) are more valid than anything you could think voice an "opinion" about.

Let's take one final example:

Okay, Debater X takes the position that Dooku fled from Yoda because he had to catch an appointment, or didn't have time. Whatever. Now Debater Y disagrees, and says that he left because he couldn't take Yoda.

X refutes that for however long with stuff like "they looked equal! Neither got tired! Etc!".

So, who's right? I'd probably say X for various reasons, now if I ignore the EU, the AOTC novelization, then it would seem X is right (assuming ROTS wasn't released). If I choose not to ignore it, then Y is right.

Novelizations > You. Simple as that. In closing, I pose one question: Is your opinion on something worth more than a canon material fact on the same thing?

Wait, I'll answer it for you: Hell no. And Sexiest, thanks for zee compliments.

By your logic Advent, Mace Windu and the other CWC jedi are as powerful as they were in the cartoons because nothing directly contradicts that.

Originally posted by Jen'ari
By your logic Advent, Mace Windu and the other CWC jedi are as powerful as they were in the cartoons because nothing directly contradicts that.

How's that my logic exactly? Am I stating the novelization says things that they are not capable of in the movies? No? Alright. Novelizations elaborate upon what has already been laid down. As fact. The CW cartoons take into a completely different realm with ridiculous feats like Mace Windu jumping several miles, and punching out an army of battle droids with his bare hands. Novelizations do not exaggerate feats, but relate directly to what happens in the movie and don't "tell tales".

Look: If the novelizations themselves are based upon the movies, how is your opinion higher than that? You're stating because you're interpreting off the movie that your opinion holds a higher value, but then how is that considering the novelizations are based off the movie directly?

Difference is - they are canon, you are not. Contradictory elements of novelizations are obviously trumped by the movie. Such as Darth Maul flipping over the shaft when dueling with Qui-Gon. The reason Obi-Wan was able to keep up, however, was not contradictory and is sealed by the label of LFL, making it on a higher plane of canon than anything you *think* about Obi-Wan. Whether it be Obi-Wan was better than Qui-Gon, or Maul was tired.

'How's that my logic exactly? Am I stating the novelization says things that they are not capable of in the movies? No? Alright. Novelizations elaborate upon what has already been laid down. As fact. The CW cartoons take into a completely different realm with ridiculous feats like Mace Windu jumping several miles, and punching out an army of battle droids with his bare hands. Novelizations do not exaggerate feats, but relate directly to what happens in the movie and don't "tell tales".'

It is your logic and a perfect analogy. You disregard how Mace Windu was depicted in the cartoon because of your interpretation of his skills in other higher forms of canon. I am doing the same here, Luke can't have been as skilled as he was described in the novel imo because of my interpretation of his skills in the movies, the higher form of canon. You're doing the same thing as I am.

'Look: If the novelizations themselves are based upon the movies, how is your opinion higher than that? You're stating because you're interpreting off the movie that your opinion holds a higher value, but then how is that considering the novelizations are based off the movie directly?'

No, that's completely wrong. The novel is even somewhat contradictory to the film. You make it sound as if all the novel does is elaborate on the movie, that's not so. By your logic, the games are also canon (not game play mechanics, but cut scenes and such).

The point is ROTJ Luke is on par with Maul, and you guys can debate the winner. Maul might win by experince but probably not.

Originally posted by superstoner
maul far more experience maul far more experience

Originally posted by Jen'ari
It is your logic and a perfect analogy. You disregard how Mace Windu was depicted in the cartoon because of your interpretation of his skills in other higher forms of canon. I am doing the same here, Luke can't have been as skilled as he was described in the novel imo because of my interpretation of his skills in the movies, the higher form of canon. You're doing the same thing as I am.

No, I'm passing off things that are already stated to have exaggerated circumstances behind them. Some parts of the CW cartoons clearly inflated the power the Jedi used and were ridiculous for the sake of the general audience. If your analogy was "perfect", then do tell - how is it that the novelizations don't usual have anything about actions that are exaggerated to the point of being ridiculous whereas the Clone War cartoons are directly stated to put overestimations of the "Jedi abilities"? Not like the simple hyperbole of description "Anakin's blue blade was nothing but a blur" , but it actual powers and actions. For instance, as I already said, Mace Windu jumping several miles.

Obviously, the non-contradictory elements of the storyline can be taken as canonical. Most of the things that had happened in Volume 2 were contradicted by Labyrinth of Evil, but still. In any case:

"One other thing to keep in mind is that the target audience for the cartoons and the novels is different so they will each have a different approach to storytelling. As a result, certain action scenes and Jedi abilities sometimes will be exagerated in the cartoon a bit."

-- "Tasty Taste" Leland Chee, EU Leadup to Revenge of the Sith topic.

From this, it's obvious he wanted to put emphasis on the fact that the cartoons are exaggerated compared to the novelizations. Hence why he singles the cartoon out. So, your analogy was not perfect because of the fact things in the cartoon are exaggerated, compared to the novelization which do not tell bedtime stories like that. No doubt because the cartoons were meant to capture the younger crowd.



Some elements. Such as, as I already said, Maul back flipping across the shaft when dueling with Qui-Gon. We know that didn't happen. There's always material, not just novelizations of the movies, that are contradictory. Obviously, if they are contradicted by the movies - they're plainly trumped. But ultimately, they are canon.

rantingrantingchairchairwarwar

please stop fightingbawling

Maul

Yup. Maul.