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Okay, I'm going to play devil's advocate for just a little bit and talk about Will and Liz's relationship. Everyone will probably have great arguements against it, but that's what I want. Make sense? In other words, these are the facts of their relationship and you can find a number of things wrong with it.


1. Liz and Will meet as children and she saves his life by spotting him and then takes the medallion out of fear he is a pirate
GOOD: Liz and Will are childhood friends and have probably played together and know each other well. You do bond with someone when you save their life.
BAD: Liz never gave back the medallion even when the danger was over? Think about why.

2. Liz is proposed to by Norrington, rescued by Jack, and then kidnapped by pirates. Will goes to save her, gets knocked out, tries to help the conventional way by going to her father and Norrington, then busts out Jack.
GOOD: Will has shown how willing he is to save Liz. Most of us would do whatever it takes to save someone we love.
BAD: To be perfectly honest, there is nothing bad here. Will is doing his first pirate act by helping Jack escape

3. Will rescues Liz from Barbosa, he bandages her hand in a "sexy" way, learns the truth about his father, and they both lead a battle against Barbosa
GOOD: Will and Liz are both good fighters and take charge under pressure...common personality traits, crucial for relationships
BAD: This is the first of Will's moodiness. He totally stops massaging Liz, which could have led to scoring with her, and freaks out that he has pirate blood. Also, Liz isn't reading what he's mad about. She thinks he's mad at her. There is no deep bonding yet.

4. Liz is the only one who goes back to help Will and Jack and the three fight the remaining pirates and as Liz runs to the chest, Barbosa points his gun at her, but not before Jack fires first.
GOOD: Liz is someone who does what is right and is brave. She is worthy of a good man to love her.
BAD: Okay, Barbosa has a gun pointed at Liz. Where is Will? If he loved her so much, wouldn't he run to pull her down or something? True, it's happening very fast and he might be far away, but I don't think the camera even shows his reaction shot.

5. Will and Liz help Jack escape and Liz chooses Will and they plan their wedding before Beckett screws everything up.
GOOD: This is the "passion" part of their relationship. Will has gotten the girl and they at least aren't taking it out on each other that their wedding was ruined.
BAD: Wedding ruined, wedding dress soaking wet, arrested and ready to hang, and the comfort is "you look beautiful?" How about "Liz, we'll get out of this" or "Liz, whatever happens, I love you." It makes me wonder if her beauty is what he prizes most about her.

6. Will vows to get Jack's compass, she escapes and gets letters of mark for Will (and Jack) and she tries to find him.
GOOD: They do have each other in mind and are risking a lot to help one another. Will probably thought it was too risky to break her out.
BAD: Both get side-tracked way too easily.

7. Liz and Jack have their oh so hot scenes and she finds Will, they have this kiss on the beach and the Kracken attacks, Liz kisses Jack and leaves him to die.
GOOD: Wow. Uh, a lot of fighting, a lot of bravery. Liz at least partially kisses Jack to save the others.
BAD: Will and Liz don't seem to be as good a team as they were fighting Barbosa. They had perfect synergy in that battle, but none here. They can't do it without Jack. Liz leans in for another kiss, revealing she enjoyed it a little too much for a woman supposedly in love with another man.

8. Will decides to bring Jack back and Liz is part of the team that will team up with Barbosa to go get him.
GOOD: They will have time alone to sort things out, talk, bond. Get to know each other even better.
BAD: They don't seem to want that time alone.

Okay, now analyze. Is this a good relationship? Does it make sense? Is it strong?

this is an excellent discussion. i love it so far. you have made awesome points. seriously, deep stuff.


i think the WIll/Liz relationship is really interesting, and actually quite good, for a time when love was pretty much the last thing on people's minds when they went out searching for a husband.

For pure debate and discussion purposes, I am going to try to leave Jack out of this discussion as much as possible... i know thats hard, but i want to focus on this thing between Will and Liz... as Willofthewisp initiated.

I think part of Will's problem is that he has put Elizabeth up on this pedastle of the one thing that will make him happy/ fulfill his life.

He doesnt make swords and practice with them 3 hours a day in order to kill pirates... he does it to impress Elizabeth and because he fantasizes about coming to her rescue one day. (case in point: princess bride the book chapter 1-3).

However, he sees her as totally above him and beyond his reach.
Even at the end, when he has proven his love for her, made a stand, done something heroic... he's ready to back down again, with the line "i will accept the consequences of my actions"... which could almost be interpretted as "i knew i couldnt have you... and i accept that..."

when he does get her, it is due almost entirely to her own initiation. She is the one who turns the "bandaging the hand" thing into something romantic and sexual... and then realizes she has lied to him and needs to confess (their relationship seems to involve endless confessions)

The prison scene in 2 is really interesting. they are having a good discussion, but the chemistry seems pretty one-sided. Will is talking low and sexy, but he pulls away from her without a kiss, and doesn't really respond to her obvious sexual suggestions.
he;s still more concerned with honor and decency at this point. he has a strong conscience... which is a really good thing... and he supports it by saving Liz, saving Jack, and trying as best he can to obey the law.

Elizabeth just doesnt have the same conscience as him. She has a good sense of wrong and right, but she is more concerned with results, rather than the process used to obtain them (as we see with Norrington, Beckett, and Jack).

all in all, i think the relationship is a strong one with weaknesses in a few places... but those places are like a dragons' weak spot... they could turn out to be fatal.

i think they sincerely care about each other and could make it work, if not for Jack Sparrow, and actually, the introduction of Will's father.

These things represent Liz and WIll's biggest weaknesses: Will, his chance to save his father, gain a family, and assure his honor... Liz, a chance to be a legend, a pirate, and a chance to get sexual satisfation like she didn't know existed.

Will only decides to bring Jack back becuase that way he can get the pearl,,its not cuz he wants to help Jack.or because he cares about Liz..he betrays him apparently as soon as he comes back..that hutrs Jack..and it hurts Liz..does he care?? eek

mmmm... i dont think its that simple.

im going to give will a bit more credit.

i do think its mainly selfish, but in some ways, he's testing liz. seeing where she stands.

Here is my question: if they had gone ahead and gotten married, lived together a little while, and THEN were arrested, would things be different? I think they could have made it work. There would be things to work out, but every relationship is like that.
But the driving force behind their growing apart is what Kate said: their sense of decency differ. Will will only commit a crime if he's desperate, if there is no other way out. He will be a pirate, but to save other people. This is a very good, noble thing and I do respect him for it. The downside to this is that somewhere in him is bottled up a negative force and it will get out, and with really nice people, it usually explodes out.
Liz would have shot Beckett without a second thought had he not cooperated, not because she wants to kill anyone, but because she would think that's what she had to do. Turning pirate isn't an act of desperation to her. She thinks it is okay to do it 1. because it gives her adventure she can't get any other way and 2. she means well. I don't think Will can deal with someone more impetuous than himself, and that's where they have trouble.
More interesting, what would have happened had Jack not come into play at all? If he took Liz onto the Pearl and treated her just as he always had and they had no romantic scenes together? Would Liz learn she wasn't in love with Will anyway? Would some other man eventually come on the scene?