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ok the strongest ancient sith vs the strongest sith during the DE time line.

the battle is on korriban,

ragnos has his scepter like the 1 we see in JA

DE Sids...

Close, but Sidious has this.

DE Sidious, this's been settled many times before

Force storm vs. Force drain.. Interesting.

Sidious has both.

^ speaks the truth. Sidious wins.

gona have to be sidious it close but de sidious is very powerful

Sidious

Wolverine.

And Sideous.

Why would Sidious beat Marka Ragnos?

because he's stronger and better

Hmm, thats funny, I thought I recalled everyone talking about Marka like he's on par with Nihlus.
And Nihlus could beat DE Sidious...

Btw, I noticed your a pretty smart guy, Lightsnake.
Why don't you check out the new Versus Threads and give me your proffesional opinion?

Nihilus's beat Sidious? Yeah. Right.
To people of later times, Nihilus is a pure chump

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Nihilus's beat Sidious? Yeah. Right.
To people of later times, Nihilus is a pure chump


Nihlus could just block Sidious's attacks and then rend him in half like a sheet of paper.

I mean, we're talking about the same guy who got beat by Luke and Leia here. (and not even at full strength)

Ok, here's where I go into main mode?

Not at full? Hm, I suppose if you think CHANNELING THE ENTIRE ****ING LIGHTSIDE isn't at full strength and that Nihilus somehow has magical defenses against a guy who knows every technique and has invented lots of his own, including Nihil's force drain on the same, if not greater scale, along with Fallanassi abilities that involves making one undetectable in the force and looping it.

You were saying something?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ok, here's where I go into main mode?

Not at full? Hm, I suppose if you think CHANNELING THE ENTIRE ****ING LIGHTSIDE isn't at full strength and that Nihilus somehow has magical defenses against a guy who knows every technique and has invented lots of his own, including Nihil's force drain on the same, if not greater scale, along with Fallanassi abilities that involves making one undetectable in the force and looping it.

You were saying something?


Oh wow, DE Sids knew Falanassi stuff too?

Tell me more.

How did he learn that Fallanassi stuff anyway?

and what is the specific names of the powers he learned from them.

Actually, If you could give me a list of the specific names of all the Force powers DE Sidious knows, right now, you would just kick my ass in this thread.

Somthing tells me, you might not be able to do that though...

He knew every single technique ever invented, plus his own techniques, which was described as being better than ANY ever before....

Yeah, I'd like a list of those though.

But, Im not sure Lightsnake can provide such a list...

No, he can't.

Oh well.

Something tells me I don't need to: We know the fallanassi abilities and we know Sidious knows them. So, game set match.

Heh, Oh, I think you do.

If you can't even show me a list of his specific powers in the Force by DE...

Heh, come on Lightsnake, this is a challenge.

Ok, here's a list:
Everything known
Everything unknown
Everything he made.

I need a list now? Is canon saying he knows everything not enough? Sorry, but your argument just collapses.

Heh, relax.

I just need you to produce a list, of at least 10 of the most powerful/unusual abilities Sidious has, specifically.

If you can't do that though, thats alright.

Erm....why should I have to? It's CANON that he knows everything, but if you insist
Force drain
Force lightning
Force Lightning
Force Crush
Malacia
Morichro
Mechu-Deru
Ability to kill someone by anger alone
Spear of Midnight Black
Torture by Chagrin
Force Grip

Mechu-Deru - what is this?

Ability to kill someone by anger alone - is this the specific name of the ability?

Spear of Midnight Black - what is this?

Torture by Chagrin - what is this?

Mechu Deru: Ability to alchemically infuse organics to technobeasts

Ability to kill someone by anger alone: Unnamed aility. Invented by Palpatine

Spear of Midnight black: Forming a weapon out of the darkside-the spear is metaphorical- and 'hurling' it at an enemy.

Torture by Chagrin- Destroying one mentaly by forcing their worst memories on them

Hmm, wow. Well, I guess DE Sidious could beat Ragnos...
Mabye.

But what powers did Ragnos know?

We don't know in every case what someone knew, there aren't published lists

Originally posted by Lightsnake
We don't know in every case what someone knew, there aren't published lists

Ahh...

Well, thanks for the lists in any case...

ok since we dunno what ragnos could do sidious wins then
. whatabout his scepter? couldnt it blast sidious away at point blank range?

It hardly slowed Kyle Katan down and that a mostly full power blast

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Erm....why should I have to? It's CANON that he knows everything, but if you insist
Force drain
Force lightning
Force Lightning
Force Crush
Malacia
Morichro
Mechu-Deru
Ability to kill someone by anger alone
Spear of Midnight Black
Torture by Chagrin
Force Grip

One of the "Force lightings" should be "Force Storm" I assume.

slowed kyle down? yea it did but couldnt ragnos use it to drain the force? note though its different from nihilus and palpatines force drain it takes a long time, by then hed be dead

Can it be used to drain an individual? When Tavion tried them on Kyle, the beam had to hit him and it wasn't exactly instant death.

Sexiest, a couple things...first, slow down you posts. You have to give people a chance to reply, not everyone just sits at their computer waiting for replies. Second, if you were/are so convinced that Ragnos can beat Palps, then why dont you provide a list of powers that he has and reasons why you think he can beat him. If you dont know what his powers are, then your argument is pure speculation, and just merely an opinion. But asking someone to do something that you have not done or can not do yourself is kinda weak. I'm not trying to be a prick or anything, but it just seems that instead of trying to prove your opinion, youre trying discredit what someone else says. You see what I mean?

Now, Palpatine is revered as one of the most powerful beings ever, and while Ragnos was of his time, he couldnt even permanently manifest himself into another physical being. DE Sidious could win this, hands down. I mean to create your own force powers is just uncanny. That demonstrates immense power. I dont see how Ragnos would stand a chance.

Darth Subjekt, you contradict yourself.

Frst of all you say

"if you were/are so convinced that Ragnos can beat Palps, then why dont you provide a list of powers that he has and reasons why you think he can beat him. If you dont know what his powers are, then your argument is pure speculation, and just merely an opinion."

and then you say

" Now, Palpatine is revered as one of the most powerful beings ever, and while Ragnos was of his time, he couldnt even permanently manifest himself into another physical being. DE Sidious could win this, hands down. I mean to create your own force powers is just uncanny. That demonstrates immense power. I dont see how Ragnos would stand a chance."

*Fails to see contradiction*

Originally posted by Sith Lord Windu
Darth Subjekt, you contradict yourself.

Frst of all you say

"if you were/are so convinced that Ragnos can beat Palps, then why dont you provide a list of powers that he has and reasons why you think he can beat him. If you dont know what his powers are, then your argument is pure speculation, and just merely an opinion."

and then you say

" Now, Palpatine is revered as one of the most powerful beings ever, and while Ragnos was of his time, he couldnt even permanently manifest himself into another physical being. DE Sidious could win this, hands down. I mean to create your own force powers is just uncanny. That demonstrates immense power. I dont see how Ragnos would stand a chance."

How is that in any way a contradiction? Did you read what i wrote or do you just not understand the way in which i wrote it? I was telling him, since he was being impatient and demanding that someone provide a list that would prove Sids to be more powerful than Ragnos, that HE should also provide a list of WHY he thought Ragnos would win. All he said was "well i think sids would lose." and not provide any valid points or reasons as to why, then went as far as to admit not even knowing what Ragnos' powers were. I then proceeded to explain that Sids was proven to be more powerful and one reason being, is because when Ragnos' spirit was summoned, he couldn't even make a permanent transfer to a tangible being. If you think i contradicted myself, please explain why. I dont see how i did. Again, not being a smartass, just looking for clarification.

firstly we only know marka was the most powerful sith of his time, we do not know at all about his real powers so we cant assume anything about him,

Yes he was the most powerful of his time, inclusive of Exar Kun and Naga Sadow.

From those two sources, and the fact that Sadow and Kressh, both show complete subordination to Ragnos it can logically be deduced that Ragnos was far above them.

In comparison, the Ancient Sith's feats are not below Sidious's, many of you are arguing Given vs Speculation.

Until there is actual given/supplied facts from accepted sources, that Sidious was the most powerful sith of all time, there isn't a shred of proof that Ragnos would lose to him nor is there a shred of proof that Ragnos would win.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
How is that in any way a contradiction? Did you read what i wrote or do you just not understand the way in which i wrote it? I was telling him, since he was being impatient and demanding that someone provide a list that would prove Sids to be more powerful than Ragnos, that HE should also provide a list of WHY he thought Ragnos would win. All he said was "well i think sids would lose." and not provide any valid points or reasons as to why, then went as far as to admit not even knowing what Ragnos' powers were. I then proceeded to explain that Sids was proven to be more powerful and one reason being, is because when Ragnos' spirit was summoned, he couldn't even make a permanent transfer to a tangible being. If you think i contradicted myself, please explain why. I dont see how i did. Again, not being a smartass, just looking for clarification.

Sidious made a transfer to a lifeless clone, essantially the a body that has no other lifeforce in it. When Ragnos attempted to resurface he was attempting to regather enough force to revive himself.

You're entire "evidence" is unsubstantiated nonsense. You're stating because Sidious can do A and Ragnos can't, he is therefore more powerful.

By that same logic, i can say because Sidious cant summon illusions on 3 seperate planets, he is therefore inferior.

Since Sidious was able to create a massive fleet of illusions to retake Coruscant, that's a moot point.

Palpatine was also able to transfer himself other, living bodies- anakin Solo, Jeng Droga.

Given what we do know about Sidious, though, there's a nice chance he would win indeed.

'both show complete subordination to Ragnos it can logically be deduced that Ragnos was far above them.'

Not really. It is definite that he was above them, how far above them is unknown.

Originally posted by Jen'ari
'both show complete subordination to Ragnos it can logically be deduced that Ragnos was far above them.'

Not really. It is definite that he was above them, how far above them is unknown.

Far enough that both of them together were afraid to challenge him. Far enough that they both bowed down to his spirit. I'd say Ragnos was leagues ahead of the second best sith during the ancient days.

No, two deadly enemies would not co-operate, especially not when one actually admired Ragnos....


Even if that's not what you meant, still one would not consider to attack him since he was his master, and the other was afraid to do it alone, yet this only proves he was more powerful, not by how much....
And his spirit had been summoned by the dark side itself to speak out it's words, as he said, I doubt they want a conflict with the whole dark side...

They had also never come across a spirit before, they had no clue as to its purpose or capabilities. People naturally fear the unknown.

Exactly like your sig says Sexy!

Originally posted by Deception
Sidious made a transfer to a lifeless clone, essantially the a body that has no other lifeforce in it. When Ragnos attempted to resurface he was attempting to regather enough force to revive himself.

You're entire "evidence" is unsubstantiated nonsense. You're stating because Sidious can do A and Ragnos can't, he is therefore more powerful.

By that same logic, i can say because Sidious cant summon illusions on 3 seperate planets, he is therefore inferior.

See, you're assuming. I never mentioned anything about Sidious transferring to a clone body, did I? And I never used the word "evidence" either.

Im saying that Sidious, with his OWN powers, created new force attacks or powers. Stating that Ragnos couldn't revive himself, was merely a point as to say that IF he were THAT much more powerful, then he would have been able to complete his mission of bringing himself back to full life. Besides, didnt he have to use a scepter? Anyways, its comparing apples to oranges. Ones an ancient Sith, one modern. You cant compare the roman empire to the modern US military...in both instances, time allows new technology and knowledge to be learned and discovered. It's not that I'm hell bent on Palps winning, it's just that more points lean towards him to win, mainly because no one knows what Ragnos could really do. Which was the whole point of me addressing him in the first place. Not necessarily to argue, which it seems this turning into...

Originally posted by kamikz
Exactly like your sig says Sexy!

lol

well i read up on sidious force drain, it isnt as fast as kreias or nihilus force drain, its slower but more tormenting, similar to ragnos scepter, i assume that sidious doesnt use drain because of that disadvantage

huh? How'd you learn that

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
See, you're assuming. I never mentioned anything about Sidious transferring to a clone body, did I? And I never used the word "evidence" either.

Im saying that Sidious, with his OWN powers, created new force attacks or powers. Stating that Ragnos couldn't revive himself, was merely a point as to say that IF he were THAT much more powerful, then he would have been able to complete his mission of bringing himself back to full life. Besides, didnt he have to use a scepter? Anyways, its comparing apples to oranges. Ones an ancient Sith, one modern. You cant compare the roman empire to the modern US military...in both instances, time allows new technology and knowledge to be learned and discovered. It's not that I'm hell bent on Palps winning, it's just that more points lean towards him to win, mainly because no one knows what Ragnos could really do. Which was the whole point of me addressing him in the first place. Not necessarily to argue, which it seems this turning into...

You can't say Ragnos is less powerful because he couldn't revive himself. Don't forget that Ragnos was a dead 5,000 year old spirit, while Sidious learned immortality from the ancient sith. Now whether or not Ragnos knew this power is unknown but as the most powerful of the ancient sith, I would assume so. Of course youre wondering that if he knew the power, why didn't he just transfer himself into another clone. Who knows? Ragnos didn't seem like the type to embrace immortality, or start a war with everybody. He was intelligent.

On the fact that Ragnos is leagues above them, you can' sit there and say "Oh one was his student and they both hated each other". Apparently you forget the whole concept of the sith. When one is strong enough he challenges the most powerful one. Nobody challenged Ragnos during his century rule, not even on his deathbed.

And? I'm pretty sure that noone denies that Ragnos is more powerful than either one of them, its just that the degree is unknown.

And also the whole fact Sidious himself is more powerful than them. So, the fact Ragnos was above them is moot.

I hope by saying that Ragnos was intelligent, you weren't implying that Sidious is not...but just in case, look at what he did. he started off as a senator and made his way to supreme chancellor, and cause a galaxy to wage war with each other. He's VERY smart, and patient. So waging war with people doesnt make you stupid. And if Ragnos wasnt concerned with immortality, then why try to come back later at all? Whether its by default or not, I say Sidious takes this because we know what he can do...you can assume Ragnos can summon the sun to land on Sidious and kill him, but until you KNOW what he can do, it's irrelevant.

agreed, until we know what ragnos can do, lets shut this thread down until we know something about ragnos, all we know is ragnos has a scepter but who knows meh, sidious would keep it and scratch his buttocks with it

I was not taking away anything from Sidious, but Ragnos was indeed smart.

granted. But no, I was just saying i hope that wasn't the implication.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
I hope by saying that Ragnos was intelligent, you weren't implying that Sidious is not...but just in case, look at what he did. he started off as a senator and made his way to supreme chancellor, and cause a galaxy to wage war with each other. He's VERY smart, and patient. So waging war with people doesnt make you stupid. And if Ragnos wasnt concerned with immortality, then why try to come back later at all? Whether its by default or not, I say Sidious takes this because we know what he can do...you can assume Ragnos can summon the sun to land on Sidious and kill him, but until you KNOW what he can do, it's irrelevant.

And we're to assume that Sidious's techniques will most definitely work on Ragnos?

Precisely because we have nothing on Ragnos, we cannot use him in any form of debates, ie He may shrug of an attack with relative ease of he may get fried up by it.

You forget that although technology within the SW Universe remains remarkably similar, its evident that it does advance. Sidious's technique of using clone bodies, may as well have been a new invention as clones may have been unavaliable within Ragnos's time. Consider also that Ragnos still had the civil issues and galactical conquest to deal with. Sidious at this time, pretty much crushed everyone and was only looking for a way to maintain his power which inevitably was thwarted by Luke and his Jedi.

Again Sidious does not win by default, chances are at 50/50, hell Ragnos may have been so powerful he could crush everyone with one blow or so weak that even Obi Wan could smash him.

Marka Ragnos.

dies

So, does Marka Ragnos have feats now?

Nah.

negative

Never will.