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"One word, love. Curiosity. You long for freedom. You long to do what you want to do because you want it. To act on selfish impulse. You want to see what it's like."


Okay, this line of Jack's needs to be re-analyzed as I procrastinate writing a paper. hehehe.

Now of course Jack is talking about Liz here, but I think, deep down, this is the BEST POSSIBLE description of HIMSELF at this point.

Jack is INCREDIBLY SELFISH... yeah, its charming and all, but its still true. He does what he wants to do. He acts of selfish impulse. He gets curious about things and so pursues them...

and I think, in some ways, that's what is going on with Elizabeth. Especially at the beginning, Jack's flirtation and pursual of Elizabeth is ANYTHING BUT noble. its incredibly selfish. he's curious about her... and he doesnt like the restraint he feels he has to show cause she's engaged or because of her class. he wants to act on selfish impulse--- and pretty much, he does. He flirts with her, manipulates her, lies to her.

Of course, I don't think he meant for his feelings to get so involved, which i think they do. Towards the end especially he turns this around and stops behaving selfishly and actually gets sacrificial about her... meanwhile, she's getting all selfish.

But, cynically speaking, is ANY love NOT selfish????

I mean, is Will's love entirely unselfish?

Is Norrington's?

I'd go so far to say that Norrington, IMO, starts out best, because he isnt coming to Elizabeth seeing what SHE can GIVE HIM, but rather, what he has to offer her, which is stability, wealth, and tender devotion.

Jack, IMO, starts out the worst, cause lets all be honest, at the beginning, he just wants Liz cause she's a pretty female. thats one of the reasons we love Jack.

and Will? Will is tough to tell. I think he is somewhere in the middle--- he is ready to offer Elizabeth a heart full of love, respect, and protection... but he also needs something of her-- needs her to affirm who he is as a man. i think by 3, he will have found his own identity and no longer look to Elizabeth as a source of his identity (which is a great thing for him)


This is still something I have trouble with as far as the Liz/Jack relationship.

Because I want Liz to remain who she is--- in the sense that she is a woman, and therefore desires certain things. I want her to retain her femininity--- even if she turns full on pirate and stops wearing dresses--- the feminine heart needs TRUST and DEVOTION from a man... ya know?

And I dont know how far I want Jack to go down that lane---- of course he is becoming the hero, and really growing, but I dont want him to be like Peter Pan in Hook--- forsaking neverland to be a lawyer with some bratty kids... ya know? Peter Pan needs to stay in Neverland, in some ways. I dont want Jack to be stagnant, but I don't want him to be NORMAL either. I dont know if his character could REACH that place of offering stability and devotion to a woman without losing something of the charm we love about him.
Im not saying that for sure, I'm just WONDERING, ya know? I just dont know at this point.
oh and I'm not saying I dont think Jack could be in a serious relationship=== not the point im trying to make!!! LOL... cause i think he could be if it was right. i've said that and i just wanted to make sure i wasnt being too confusing.

So where do you guys think these characters are on the selfishness factor???????

This is an interesting topic, Kate. Selfishness. Everyone wants to be more selfish than they are, and at times, people need to be selfish. I like what you said about Norrington. He is the only one of the three that thinks about giving rather than receiving. That's why he doesn't NEED her as much as Jack or Will does.

So for selfishness.......

Jack: Yeah, he's selfish in the first one, but is he really? He wants his ship back and his main motive is revenge. It's his ship and was wrongly taken from him. Most of us would do the same. We also learn he never intended to desert Will or anyone else. It was all a ploy, so he has never been someone who sells out others. In the second movie, he is a little more selfish because his life is on the line and he's constantly thinking about what he wants. It's not until he's leaving the Pearl and sees the compass point back to it that he realizes he can't be a selfish person all the time. He has grown, but I don't think he was ever the most selfish person.

Will: Hmm, it's hard to call a person selfish if they're so taken with a person as Will is with Liz. He's completely in awe of her and craves her, would die for her at the drop of a hat. That's pretty unselfish, but at the same time, he's looking at what he gets out of their relationship, not what she gets out of it. He also is a little selfish in the respect he refuses to listen to Jack, but that's more a pride issue. In the second one, Jack sold him out and he felt betrayed and wanted to use the chest to save his dad. That's pretty noble. We have yet to see how selfish he'll be with Liz.

Liz: Although I love her, she is the most selfish of the three. She does lots of unselfish things, but a huge motive in the second movie is what she wants, namely adventure and to do whatever she wants. That's not to say she doesn't do incredibly unselfish things-she does, but she does more things out of just what she wants than the other two do.

Can yo summerize that

Sorry, I'm long-winded.

Uh, Jack is selfish, but not more so than anyone else. Will isn't selfish YET, and Liz is slightly more selfish than the two of them.

how is elizabeth more selfish then the 2 of them???

i agree that she does act on selfish impulse, but most of the time, whether she enjoyed it or not, there is a reason behind it that has to do with helping other people

Willo, i totally agree that Liz is the most selfish of them all.

I dont actually think its that bad though.. cause she needed to go through that, really be a rebel and then understand what her selfish actions did to the people she loves. IMO, she will grow up and a bit and gain some wisdom in 3 about when its okay to be selfish and when you have to "be steady and give up the thing you want most" to quote peter parker.

I dont think Jack acts selfishly about the Pearl--- heck, i totally wanted him to get it no matter what the cost. But i mean about his relationship with Elizabeth, especially throughout the beginning of 2... its not very honorable. though it eventually gets there.

Speaking of pride, I would vote Will as the most prideful of the main characters, behind which would follow Elizabeth, then Norri, and then Jack. Cause Jack has a different sort of pride--- he is proud of the fact that he is a legend, but he is a bit more laid back and DOES ask for help once in a while...

Originally posted by katelovespirate
Willo, i totally agree that Liz is the most selfish of them all.

I dont actually think its that bad though.. cause she needed to go through that, really be a rebel and then understand what her selfish actions did to the people she loves. IMO, she will grow up and a bit and gain some wisdom in 3 about when its okay to be selfish and when you have to "be steady and give up the thing you want most" to quote peter parker.

I dont think Jack acts selfishly about the Pearl--- heck, i totally wanted him to get it no matter what the cost. But i mean about his relationship with Elizabeth, especially throughout the beginning of 2... its not very honorable. though it eventually gets there.

Speaking of pride, I would vote Will as the most prideful of the main characters, behind which would follow Elizabeth, then Norri, and then Jack. Cause Jack has a different sort of pride--- he is proud of the fact that he is a legend, but he is a bit more laid back and DOES ask for help once in a while...

Okay, so you are saying Jack is selfish in his flirting and pursuit of Elizabeth in 2 - well, not so fast. We have learned that Jack is actually trying to avoid Elizabeth...because he knows he wants her...so instead of setting sail towards her...he is sailing in the opposite direction...(they don't show this in the movie...but the writers kind of said this is what's going on with Jack)...remember...he does know what he wants but is loathe to claim it as his own....but then Liz shows up on his ship, the Pearl....unmarried...ya know..there's no ring on her finger yet...and really he can't help himself...he is attracted to her...he doesn't purposely set out to flirt with her...it just kinda happens...it's that chemistry thing again..coming up between them. And she flirts too - and she is the one supposedly in love...and she doesn't even say..."jack I can't marry you, I'm in love with will...i miss Will...I'm so ready to be married to Will"...no instead we find her tempting Jack with a kiss....

So I agree with Willo - Elizabeth is the most selfish of the three

yeah.... you guys all make strong points....

and that's all i have to say about that