Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Did you guys know that Ted also wrote the mask of zorro series, and ALADDIN!?!?! and Schrek, as a reminder. lol.

Also: Road to Eldorado(in which the brunnette man gets the girl), National Treasure.

I cant believe they wrote the Zorro movies. Its just interesting cause thats definately the vibe i get between Jack and Elizabeth... its like Alejandro and Elena all over again. Elena is always saying things like "we were never meant to be together" and blah blah, right before they start making out or something. hehehehe.

Does anyone else have other info for them? Lts figure out what they are most liekly to do...

on his blog, terry compares Jack to Indiana Jones, James Bond, and, oh s***, rick from casablanca.

also:

So now a writing deadline. Chow Yun-Fat needs to have his scenes delivered as early as possible -- his process is to memorize his lines phonetically as well as have them translated. This means we have to have the Singapore sequence (12 pages!) finished -- and locked down, meaning we don't have the luxury of making a final pass the day before, or even last second changes at rehearsal or on set.


this bit means that the scenes with Chow Yun were written during filming of 2... and set in stone. they cant change those, for the most part. meaning what we see is what we get on the draft script with him...

more info on 3...

Funny thing about this who-knows-how-many-milllions-of-dollars Singapore set, the sequence is being shot under the myth that 'there is no screenplay for P3.' Of course there is a screenplay for P3, there have been four drafts of the screenplay for P3, not to mention multiple highly-detailed outlines... there just isn't a screenplay that Gore, and Johnny, and Jerry, have approved. Our fault, in a sense, as many key scenes just aren't good yet. So far, the production schedule has been kind to us -- the only P3 scenes that have had to be shot are ones that are finished and correct. Like they asked in SHAKESPEARE IN LOVE, how can this possibly all work out? "It's a mystery..."

thats very intresting kate

apparantly the first scene of the leaked script is the same as well:

File this under 'Great Moments in Life': we arrive today at the Singapore set, and Keira is moving a long boat through the water, lip-syncing a song. Blasting over the sound system is a playback of Keira's recording of "Hoist the Colors"... when the production needed a song, Ted and I wrote the lyrics, Gore Verbinski and Hans Zimmer worked out music and the arrangement, and here it is playing throughout the stage...

oh yay i love you kate you always find juicy info

This is very interesting, Where in teh world do you find all this information? how can I read Terry's blog where is it posted?
Thanks

EXCUSE ME WHILE I FREAK OUT!!!!!!

Marketing gurus made a presentation for DEAD MAN'S CHEST, our first glimpse at the film's one-sheet. Features Johnny, Keira, and Orlando, much like the first movie, but done in a cool greenish color palette. They demonstrated the break-apart standees, where you could assemble four into a column or spread them out across the lobby. Theater owners can arrange them as they wish. We only got to see the 12" high prototypes and made the requisite SPINAL TAP jokes. Orlando snuck in to see the posters, came out grinning like a kid. "SMOKING!" he yells. His photo was especially cool-looking, very Errol Flynn. "No WAY do I look like that!" he says happily. Orlando is always the most enthusiastic person on the set -- and why not?

Got to talk a little bit about merchandising. There really should be a PIRATES OF THE CARIBBEAN board game of some type. And I want to see a really high-end chess set. The pawns could be British Navy and look mostly the same, slight variations to suggest Murtogg, Mullroy, Groves, etc. Beckett as King? Or Davy Jones? Put Tia Dalma on that side as Queen. Jack and Elizabeth as King and Queen, or should it be William? Or make William a Bishop? What side does Barbossa go on? Made the suggestion about Jack-the-Monkey puppet, reversible, undead on one side, live on the other. Found out they're doing a "Pirate's Dice" (Perudo style) game! Our plan actually worked!



Jack and Liz as king and queen?!?!?! is that supposed to be some kind of sneaky chess spoiler?!?!?!

just thought this bit was funny:

I found this out: If you ask for gum while travelling on Johnny's private jet, the lovely attendant will return and present you with a silver tray, linen napkin, arrayed upon it many different selections, Orbitz, Extra, Trident, Big Red, etc. Whoa, intense.

Gore says, the night before, he woke up suddenly in the middle of the night, laughing at Johnny's delivery, "Where's the thump thump?"

Johnny says, "You know how I knew it was a good take? Trevor was laughing, guy who does pull focus, he's the hardest guy on the set to make laugh. I know if I can get Trevor to even look away, or smile, I'm doing good."


here's a link to the blog im currently reading. search around the site for way more info. lol.
http://www.wordplayer.com/archives/rossio07.Plank.Walk.html

It felt right to me for Marty to be the crew member to call out and lead the pirate charge. Marty is a strong physical presence on the ship, without the benefit of a lot of lines; he is sort of the Id of the pirate crew, first into the fray, first to be afraid, first to be suspicious, etc. I think it's because he is the shortest pirate, maybe, it feels right that he should be out front, the most bold? Discuss with Gore and he agrees, it works for Marty to lead the charge.


oooo... a pirate charge? sounds exciting!

I think the character fans might have to reassess is Elizabeth, for some reason she was let off easy in the first movie, even though she barters herself to Norrington, lying in order to get him to turn around and go save Will, and a lot of good sailors died as a result of that deed -- so what is her essential nature? She has demonstrated, time and again, she is more of a pirate than any of them. I am VERY interested to see how the fans will react to our story -- it is, in fact, the key question, the one that will define the fate of the franchise!


woah thats intense...

so with the quote i just posted... does that mean that OUR reaction to what LIZ does to Jack will decide the fate of whether or not they end up togehter!?

more quote from tr:

While it's great for characters to have strong inner lives, it's a mistake to organize a plot around the drama of a character deciding to change their thinking. Consider how non-cinematic a change of heart truly is, without the actions taken as a result of the change.
Instead, it's the task of the screenwriter to take that inner journey of the character and give it a playing area. Externalize the issues, either into situations or other characters, and let the protagonist work things out where we all can see and hear it.

sorry, more interestings quotes:

This is also known as 'visceral logic.' It's dangerous to play with, but a powerful tool. Beyond strict story logic, there is the emotional logic of the film. For example, if the audience wants something to happen, it's easier to make them believe that it can happen.


IMO, that means if the audience wants Liz and Jack together, they will believe that its likely to work out that way, even if it seems a bit far fetched or something. lol.

Okay, here is another REALLY cool bit:

Sometimes your convictions are the greatest stumbling blocks to fixing a story problem. It's that thing that you're certain of, that you don't challenge -- that you just know is right about a scene -- that stops you from finding the inventive solution. It's a good idea to have this general rule: challenge everything. Go through the problem scene step by step and consider the effect of doing the exact opposite of all your story decisions.
The audience will come to 'know' the character through their actions. When characters can make decisions that run counter to expectations, bringing reversals into the story, that's of immediate interest. (Once again, look at RAIDERS. When Indiana Jones ties up Marion instead of rescuing her, it's a marvelous reversal, and we gain huge insight into Indy's character by that one action.)




Could this imply their meaning behind Jack trading Elizabeth in movie 3???

I know guys im posting a lot, i just think this stuff is great. here's one more bit:::


GO TO THE EXTREME

Characters, stories, and story beats fail far more often by not going far enough than by going too far. It is almost a rule that if you push a character, an emotion, or a situation to the absolute extreme, it will play on film. Consider the various, and varied, extreme situations in PULP FICTION. (There are limits, of course, and consider the effect on the tone of the movie, especially concerning sex and violence.) But it's almost always worthwhile to re-evaluate a scene or a sequence with an eye toward, "Did we push that far enough?"

And here's a list of sequences or story elements that always seem to work gangbusters on screen:

1. Poker games
2. Seductions
3. Bidding/auction scenes (think Alfred Hitchcock)
4. An execution
5. Sunny, tropical locations (consider setting your film in a location you want to visit)
6. Maps and treasure hunts
7. A race of any type

And to top off this list of arbitrary claims, here's "Wordplay's Iron-Clad Rule of Box Office Success": let your hero smile. Most films, and all bad ones, have the hero striding along wearing dour expressions, looking like their teeth hurt. But think of any movie you love, and I bet you can remember a shot of the hero breaking out in a grin. And hey, if you want a really big hit, let your hero smile in Act I, Act II and Act III. Works every time.



---That quote, to me, indicates that Jack and not Will is their hero (obviously, since Will never smiles) and Jack is the character they are more focused on. right?

theres hope for a hott liz/jack scene.... check out this from the blog:::

HOW TO WRITE A SEX SCENE

Okay, enough on sexual politics. Let's get down to the nitty-gritty.
Here's how you write a sex scene:
Two people kiss. Kiss some more. Lock each other in a major clench. They fall back out of frame, and you cut to your choice of:

a. the sunrise
b. a train plunging into a tunnel
c. waves crashing on the beach
d. fireworks
e. a steam whistle blowing

one more bit that might be helpful:

The Big Finish
Screenwriting Column 13
by Terry Rossio

Here's my iron-clad rule for how a movie should end. (How's that for taking a stance?) A good ending must be decisive, set-up, and inevitable -- but nonetheless unexpected.
This is, of course, not easy to do. Some writers feel that a good, strong opening, the hook, is the toughest thing to come up with. I disagree. A great opening is perhaps the most important section of the screenplay -- it's the part that's actually going to get read! But it's not the hardest. My writing partner, Ted Elliott, can come up with a great set-up in seconds -- but give him a month or so before asking him what comes next!
Act II is a renowned quagmire of story problems. You could argue that it's the toughest Act to plot. But the subject matter itself at least provides material to shape, and gives some direction how to proceed. Act II problems are more often organization problems, not blank-page problems, and they'll ultimately succumb to proper execution of craft.
No, for myself, Act III -- and coming up with that great ending -- is definitely the toughest plotting on a script. It's an Act where you can't get by on just craftsmanship, you really do need to have something that's inspired. It's the payoff Act.
So let's go back to the rule: 'Decisive, set-up, and inevitable -- but nonetheless unexpected.'

1. Decisive.
The most satisfying endings resolve the issues at hand clearly and decisively, one way or the other. Effective endings that are ambiguous are rare -- and a bit of a contradiction in terms.

2. Set-up.
The ending can't come completely out of left-field. It should be one of several known possibilities, or referenced as a possible solution sometime earlier in the film. The ending must appear to evolve naturally out of the elements that are known. You don't want to change the rules at the end of the game -- that's not fair.

3. Inevitable.
Another word for this might be 'appropriate.' You want an ending that is so 'right,' it seems as if it could have turned out no other way -- but only after it's happened! Because it's also got to be --

4. Unexpected.
This is the real trick. The unexpectedness of the ending is the true payoff, the reward for watching the film. It's the element the audience will weigh most heavily when judging the outcome of the story -- whether or not it was 'worth waiting for.'

Let's look at the most famous, and perhaps the most effective, ending in film history -- the ending of CASABLANCA. It was certainly decisive: Rick and Ilsa do not end up together -- she leaves on the plane with Victor Lazlo. It was certainly set up: Rick helping the young man win at roulette was just one scene that showed Rick's idealism. And the ending could be said to be inevitable. As the story of the filming goes, several endings to the film were considered -- but when the first one was shot, they knew they had it, and that the story could not end any other way.
And finally, the ending was, indeed, unexpected -- a quality that evolved out of its genre and structure. A romance where the hero doesn't get the girl? And it turns out to be the most romantic movie of all time!
I think of endings as the fulfillment of the promise, the covenant the storyteller makes with the audience. Violate that covenant at your peril.

Put simply, if it's an action picture, you've set up the expectation of an action finish. A courtroom scene probably won't do.
Now it's true that often when you enter Act III, it does work to shake the picture up by changing the essential nature of the story (the hunter becomes the hunted; the murderer is brought to trial, etc.). This is good drama. Still, though, the story must be brought back around to an arena that is appropriate for the characters. Too often the characters get thrown aside, in that search for the big finish. But note that 'spectacle' is not one of the requirements for an ending. You don't necessarily need a big finish -- what you need is a satisfying conclusion to the situation.
A film that shows this beautifully is MOONSTRUCK. Who would have thought that you could have a brilliant ending to a movie take place with a bunch of people talking at a family breakfast table? It's unique, it's unexpected, and it's completely satisfying.



Unexpectedness is one of the hardest elements to design into an ending. I find it useful to consider which type of question or questions is truly unknown to the audience. In a whodunit, the element that is not known is, well, WHO, and quite often the motive, or WHY. In an action film, you pretty much know WHAT is going to happen -- the hero is going to win -- but you don't know HOW. The HOW, then, is where you get your surprise. Occasionally, answering the WHERE questions can be a surprise -- remember where Hannibal Lector ended up in SILENCE OF THE LAMBS? WHEN questions are tough for endings, as they usually must be set up making the audience superior, which destroys the surprise.
So if you know which answer you're holding back -- the WHO, WHY, WHAT, HOW, or WHERE -- it can be easier to create that all-important unexpected ending. The best to go for is the WHAT question -- as in, truly not knowing 'what will happen' until it happens.

Ideally, the ending of a film is what the whole film has built to, in some fashion or other, all the way from page one. Ted and I still laugh at a screenplay that was submitted to us, where the writer included 'optional up ending' and 'optional down ending.' If the writer wasn't writing to one or the other of those endings throughout the screenplay, how effective could either of those endings be?
And a final note, on those 'down' endings. Writers just starting out often succumb to the temptation of choosing a tragic ending. After all, tragic endings are rare in films, and therefore unexpected. And unexpected is good, right?
Problem is, tragic endings really not all that rare -- there are lots of unproduced spec scripts around with typical bad-script unhappy endings. The result is, usually, an unhappy ending for the writer.

Where do you get all of these things at?

t and t's blog. i posted it above.

ted has a blog too? ive only read terry's

oh okay he must post the same blog on two places cause i read the "walk the plank" blog on his myspace..

LOL they have myspaces?!? thats hilarious. any info thats not already on this thread???

only terry has a myspace i think. the one blog i know you saw.. ill give you a link..

http://www.myspace.com/terryrossio

Originally posted by katelovespirate
on his blog, terry compares Jack to Indiana Jones, James Bond, and, oh s***, rick from casablanca.

well THAT sucks

gotta think tho..Jack's character arc doesn't appear to be immortality by the end..its way too obvious of his character to want that..and we all know what REALLY happens at the end

and James bond is continous..Jack's gotta end some time..and James bond always gets the girl at the end but necx time he doesnt...IMO if thy just made it so Jack had the girl in DMC and hen goes back to being a bachelor it wouldnt work cuz you cant just change Liz's character etc..it would look stupid....the movie isnt a new story its continuing from the last and all the situations from the last.

yes it does

Originally posted by katelovespirate
I think the character fans might have to reassess is Elizabeth, for some reason she was let off easy in the first movie, even though she barters herself to Norrington, lying in order to get him to turn around and go save Will, and a lot of good sailors died as a result of that deed -- so what is her essential nature? She has demonstrated, time and again, she is more of a pirate than any of them. I am VERY interested to see how the fans will react to our story -- it is, in fact, the key question, the one that will define the fate of the franchise!


woah thats intense...

well lets see..hmm 1 billion? ..people wern't going there to see Will/Liz snogging eachothers faces off were they?..I distinctly remember the money of the movie tounge wrestling with the lead female and people falling in love with the idea going to see it over and OVER and OVER again..I distinctly remember Will not being with Elizabeth throughout MOST of the story.

I read the whole thing about how they were comparing Jack's character to Rick's in Casablanca. They were asking this essential question: Is it that the character of Rick changes during the course of the movie, or that over the course of the movie that his true character is revealed.

The same can be said of Jack's character development during the course of the two movies. Its not that his character is changing, but more that we're seeing who he is as a person. What makes the character of Jack Sparrow so complex is that he puts up the facade of "Captain Jack Sparrow" to keep people at a distance. Like Rick, the gruff exterior was developed so that he could function in a corrupt, morally ambiguous world.

And if you really think about it, and look at the Pirates series from a larger scope, we've already seen the Casablanca ending. It can be argued, especially if you add in the deleted scenes from COTBP that Jack has already given up Elizabeth to the "hero".

Further more, we see a contrast between Will and Jack. Will is the character who has the qualities of what society would call a hero. He's handsome, reasonably intelligent, and recklessly brave. But, judging from the writer's body of works, that really isn't what makes a hero. Like Jack's sacrifice in DMC and Rick's in Casablanca, it's not open bravery that defines a hero, but the quiet, sometimes silent, heart wrenching sacrifices that make the hero.

wow
that was great!
Than you for that!
really helps me see Jacks character

WOWZIES..OMG

and since WHEN does James bond never win the girl he's after?..he won Liz but he hasnt really returned home with her yet as all hero's must..he's STILL after her in 3..he loves her

know what..they have made jack a mixture of these 3 characters??

wouldnt you say Jack was more interested in looking like a god more than anything else in movie 1? - Indiana Jones

Movie 2 he's rick from casablanca the girl left him for her "beloved" although he did change for her etc like Rick seems to in Casablanca right?

movie 3? James bond ay?..he always gets the lady

hahah! lmao!
"Damn, we see the HARRY POTTER teaser, and they've got the sailing ship rising out of the water gag. That's one of our key images, and now it's going to look like we copied it. Do we mention it to Gore? We bring it up to him, but Gore has already seen it and talked with the guys at ILM, and he says ours is going to look better." im sorry, this made me laugh so bad! i love harry potter so yeah. i am so in love /w PoTC and HP. POTC is more tho

hahha!! i LOVE Johnny! even his jet is awesome! Johnny, can you give me a ride in your private jet??!!!I WANT YOU!!
"I found this out: If you ask for gum while travelling on Johnny's private jet, the lovely attendant will return and present you with a silver tray, linen napkin, arrayed upon it many different selections, Orbitz, Extra, Trident, Big Red, etc. Whoa, intense." i wonder what Johnny's fav gum is! I NEED 2 FIND THIS OUT!

Originally posted by savvysparrow
I read the whole thing about how they were comparing Jack's character to Rick's in Casablanca. They were asking this essential question: Is it that the character of Rick changes during the course of the movie, or that over the course of the movie that his true character is revealed.

The same can be said of Jack's character development during the course of the two movies. Its not that his character is changing, but more that we're seeing who he is as a person. What makes the character of Jack Sparrow so complex is that he puts up the facade of "Captain Jack Sparrow" to keep people at a distance. Like Rick, the gruff exterior was developed so that he could function in a corrupt, morally ambiguous world.

And if you really think about it, and look at the Pirates series from a larger scope, we've already seen the Casablanca ending. It can be argued, especially if you add in the deleted scenes from COTBP that Jack has already given up Elizabeth to the "hero".

Further more, we see a contrast between Will and Jack. Will is the character who has the qualities of what society would call a hero. He's handsome, reasonably intelligent, and recklessly brave. But, judging from the writer's body of works, that really isn't what makes a hero. Like Jack's sacrifice in DMC and Rick's in Casablanca, it's not open bravery that defines a hero, but the quiet, sometimes silent, heart wrenching sacrifices that make the hero.

I've been sayin that about Jack for yonks but you said it about 1 billion times better than me

the dog which I always felt resembles Jack even shows this transformation in the movies..from 1 to 2..heck he even mirrors what Jack does in both movies.

Jack in movie 1=Indiana Jones, all about the image and immortality
Jack in mive 2=Rick from casablanka..he's changed for Elizabeth and she rejects him for Will
Jack in movie 3=James bond, willing hero..always gets the girl cuz he damn well deserves it by the end

next time we see him jack will be a full blown hero..he's accepted the role of king..and if he plays the part he wont perish with the new world(beckett's line, dog and the canibals w)..he also has the bone in his mouth at the end meaning he has made a change from his old way of life(keys, material possessions) to a new..he's let love in and Elizabeth in. He's also just had his sleeping beauty moment..where he dies and comes back transformed in some way

..totaly james bond..the willing hero by 3 I can bet yaz ..and James bond always gets the girl lol

well i also like to compare jack like zorro
now im not sure if kate comapred already

Jack is mysterious like zorr. and its like a temptation that u urge. and at the begining of the zorro movie elena and alejandro had like a love/hate relationship. sort off resembles to jack/liz.

im probably not making any sense lol

true, very true!

savvysparrow, that was an incredibly profound post. nice work.

yeah i totally agree about liz/jack COMPLETELY mirroring Elena/ Alejandro. it feels like the EXACT same relationship to me... except for the complication of bloody stupid will. LOL.

elena and alejandro were voted some of the hottest film lovers of all time... and their swordfight/makeout scene made that film what it was.

the same is true for Liz/Jack. they can carry the film on pure chemistry.

i hope they realize that. lol

they sure hell did lol. if they havent then they made money and are famous for nothing (ted/terry)

Originally posted by katelovespirate
savvysparrow, that was an incredibly profound post. nice work.

yeah i totally agree about liz/jack COMPLETELY mirroring Elena/ Alejandro. it feels like the EXACT same relationship to me... except for the complication of bloody stupid will. LOL.

elena and alejandro were voted some of the hottest film lovers of all time... and their swordfight/makeout scene made that film what it was.

the same is true for Liz/Jack. they can carry the film on pure chemistry.

i hope they realize that. lol

LOL tht is so true..its the kiss everyone is talking about..its like DAMN

people aren't talking about a "Will/Liz spanner in the works" cuz that is a CRAP story.who would keep going back to see that over and over again until the movie reached 1 billion?

So true LovelyOne!!!

And speaking of the screenwriter's biggest hits, lets talk about Schrek for a minute.

The Princess Fiona was different from other princesses... not only did she have a spell over her that turned her into an ogre at night (just as Liz secretely has pirate tendencies), but she killed birds and belched and enjoyed hanging out with ogres. (Liz is a strong leader, good sea captain, and hates corsets)

From the time she was a little girl, she dreamed of marrying Prince Charming and having her own happily ever after. (Liz had an ideal of happily ever after with Will, her childhood sweetheart)

When she realized that she was falling for Schrek, she had a total breakdown because He didn't match her IDEAL of a happily ever after. She fought with him, and then She went off and tried to marry Lord F... who fit that ideal. (Liz realizes she is falling for Jack, chains him to a doomed ship, and tries to make things work with Will)

It took Schrek's bravery to make her realize being an ogre was beautiful, and it was the perfect happily ever after for her. (insert movie 3 here)

OMG^^ so true SO TRUE..also Shreck learned that he was never really happy on his own and with material things until he allowed love in his life..it made things better for him. He finally had purpose.

Jack deserves a reason to live..IMO its so obvious Jack comes alive when he has reason to fight for someone he loves. (lizzie)

funilly enough the last step in a hero's journey is "freedom to live"

In Jacks case..freedom to live how his heart wants him to with Elizabeth ..freedom to live for someone else (Tia knew this) Will outta the picture "we're not free yet love" *SQUEE*

same goes for Liz when it comes to Jack IMO (tia knew this)

Will and his fishy end? He is living with his father in heaven possibly..alongside Tia or whet ever lol (Tia knew)

yes exactly. schrek thought he was happy in the swamp (jack thought he was happy with the pearl) but after spending time with fiona, he came back to the swamp and found it was just a swamp after all... (just as jack found that the pearl is only a ship)

but it took a cranky donkey to make him see he had to go fight for her.

its interesting to note that fiona and lord f DO legally get married-- and then lord f is swallowed by a dragon.

its AFTER they have just gotten married that Fiona finally shows Schrek her ogre side... so perhaps after her marriage with Will, Liz will gain the courage to show Jack that she is a pirate, and Jack will in turn show her that being a pirate can be noble and beautiful too... and they can sail away together on the pearl, just as Schrek and Fiona went off to the swamp together!

LOL i mean come on..she could read charts and Jack was proud of her lol..its like his: my little "pirate" line and her showing the denial again after CLEARLY just wanting another taste..

It explains her.."dont call me love!" after he sugests he's loving her pirate side again..


and its so true what you say kate

freedom to live is to live how they always WANTED to live at the end of their journey

am off to bed night night xxxx

I'm so happy we have so many clever people on this site who can see through th BS of what Disney "appear" to be doing..LOL lets just pray we are right.

omg thats so beautiful.. *squeeeeeeeee* im all hyper now.

omg thats so so sweet...ahh anybody got a hanker chief

LOL^^ night girls!!

my lil pirate bitches

^^^ i dont know y, but that sounded increasingly strange

yay im a pirate ***** wohoo...is that good? lol

night!!!!

uummm......i think i might b turning into Bwa! help!

i dunno im afraid im gonna get contaminated lol

i dont think so

LOL i mean come on..she could read charts and Jack was proud of her lol..its like his: my little "pirate" line and her showing the denial again after CLEARLY just wanting another taste.. big grin

It explains her.."dont call me love!" after he sugests he's loving her pirate side again..



Where does that happen?

Originally posted by savvysparrow
LOL i mean come on..she could read charts and Jack was proud of her lol..its like his: my little "pirate" line and her showing the denial again after CLEARLY just wanting another taste.. big grin

It explains her.."dont call me love!" after he sugests he's loving her pirate side again..



Where does that happen?
its from the choke on it thread i think.

There are posts from other people that I desperately want to quote, but I can't figure out the quote button. Anyway, this post is in regards to the quotes posted by Ted and Terry.

The first is in reference to the post about Elizabeth's essential nature:


Mmmmm, yes and no. I think it's more along the lines of people were not seeing her essential nature, and there fore thinking that her change in DMC was out of character. However, from COTBP I think it's fairly obvious that she's more capable of maneuvering through the pirate world than Will and sometimes even Jack.

So what he's saying is that at her heart, she is a pirate, whether she chooses to accept it or not. It is her choice to ultimately become a pirate that he's referring to. There are some people in the audience, who, will want Elizabeth to settle down in Port Royale to marry Will, but that is not in her nature.

And while I'm at it, you mentioned briefly the quote about visceral logic versus story logic.

Yes, you can interpret what he's saying to mean that if the audience wants J/E to be together that they will accept that manner of ending. However, I've read too that the writers are fond of twisting the audience's emotions. So they will lead them in one direction and then pull the rug out from underneath them.

What I'm trying to say is that Ted and Terry are fiendish and KINGS of double talk---like Jack. Sometimes, you have to interpret what they say and apply to both sides. Unfortunately.

aaww!! i luv ur avvy, kiwibird!

thanks I luv it too I luv every jonny depp avvy lol

yeah somehow I feel like they havent quite finished with Liz's character-- in the sense that they have given us some basic information about her, and we've seen her do some things that lead us to certain conclusions about her, but her character is no where near as fleshed out as Jack or even Will. there is a lot of times where you can't predict her behavior... you dont know what she will do, or what she is thinking. this means they really have to complete her character in 3.

her nature seems very contradictory to me, and i think thats in part because Elizabeth is like the only girl in these films with any sort of character arc. So they have to fit her into several different roles. For one, the heroine, the love interest, and yet she is the protagonist-- at least with the first one, the story was told from her perspective... so she OUGHT to have the most character arc, the greatest development and growth as a person.

in my opinion, though, they did such a poor job of giving her character clear definition, that we cant tell whether she is developing and growing or just wandering aimlessly.

im refferring to her constant denial about Jack. after a point (aka their reunion in 3) it is no longer within her character to deny her feelings, treat Jack badly, and continue to run after Will if she really does have feelings for Jack.
Which is why many of these spoilers convince me she doesn't care for jack at all romantically.

which is absurd, because she should, and the kiss seemed to speak for itself, but it looks like the writers are trying to do damage control with the script, rather than play into and continue that beautiful risk they took.

Originally posted by ivebeendepped43
^^^ i dont know y, but that sounded increasingly strange

yes it did I just realised how weird that sounded

SavvySparrow I agree..in pirates one she's betrayed Jack before too lol..Its why he loves her

I cant imagine her returning to a life in port Royal...no way

She is trying to hide her pirate side she is ashamed of it..Jack made her love it and this is why she might be a bit iffy towards him..Jack makes her feel like nothing she has ever felt before..As soon as he came into her life, removed the corset and dress (freedom to breathe) she showed her true feisty pirate colors for the first time.

Kate I think she does..remember what Ted said about the compass?

It pointed to Jack because what she wants most is Jack

and its so strange to me that it only pointed to the means to SAVE Will instead of Will himself..she wants to save Will the most in this world..IMO she treats him like her son...or she is very much the MAN in the relationship where as when it comes to Jack...HE is the man so it points to the man..he's the only one who protects her when she needs it and IMO she hates that she's falling for him in this way..which might explain the look of hatred..its like she is hating him for doing this to her...she needs HIM as a man and she's not willing to accept it yet it seems.

and then there is her denial/fear when someone mensions that she's got feelings for Jack..heck even the ending suggested she was afraid of them..

Originally posted by savvysparrow
LOL i mean come on..she could read charts and Jack was proud of her lol..its like his: my little "pirate" line and her showing the denial again after CLEARLY just wanting another taste.. big grin

It explains her.."dont call me love!" after he sugests he's loving her pirate side again..



Where does that happen?

Its in that thread "choke on it"

IMO Elizabeth is seeing what she did as like a "dirty thing" where as Jack is going to love her for it no matter what..

He promises he wont ever tell about what she did

Oh and Kate..it should be in her character to still be treating Jack kinda bad and be in denial still and also wanting Will..and wanting Jack at the same time..IMOshe's still totally into him..she's only just crossed the first threshold..when Jack was there through out much of the time he was with her..he was treating her bad..he was still shifting between being selfish or caring for her

I just wonder if Jack and Liz will treat each other bad in this next one. How do you just go back to treating someone like nothing happened when they left you to die, or you left them to die? They have to at least fool themslves into thinking they're mad at the other if they are still denying their feelings, so I can see Liz getting mad for a while, definitely, especially when she gets traded to Sao Feng. But Jack? We all know he's not mad at her, and that he doesn't care too much about what people think of him so long as they think of him, so I wonder how he will treat her.

Jack doesnt seem to be but she's treating him "really bad"..Jack sort of slipped up IMO by puting her on Sao Feng's pear shaped..it might be extra reason why he is a bit iffy with him..Jack is actually in love by this point it seems..you read that bit from the draft scrip in that "choke on it" thread? It shows that he's in love with her and is hurt by her...

but its all what happens in the stages she's at.

Jack was like it too when he was at that stage

He's actually at the stage whjere he has to face consequences fot gaing the reward .and IMO Liz is a consequence too as well as Will..and possibly even himself

i just dont get liz.

she totally betrayed Jack in 2, so why cant he get even in 3? i dont think she has any right to be mad at jack for trading her to sao feng... because she should know she had it coming.

plus she's been a jerk to jack up to this point in the script. she needs to come to her senses already. this is dumb. i dont blame jack at all for trading her. give her a taste of her own medicine. plus he's already died for her once, and she's not acting like she appreciated it much.

why does she always treat jack so bad? gosh it drives me nuts.

yeah Jack is totally in love with her... its obvious... and PAINFUL... cause i just dont see a good way for this work out. i just want jack to be happy. liz is being retarded though. seriously.

maybe she does^^ but she's trying to supress it..IMO all this behaviour is her trying so desperatly to make Jack out to be a bad man..she's trying to supress her feelings.."you always hurt the one you love" especially when you hate admitting your feelings for them

why the hell did I say Sao Feng's pear shaped?? LMFAO thats not what I said I swear

I mean he puts her on his ship thinking he's gonna see her again and things go pear shaped

lol.

if i were jack, i woulda done the same thing. is that terrible? they are peas in a pod. "i saved your life, you saved mine, we're square". "you trade me, i trade you. we're square."

plus, Liz never actually gets hurt. He doesnt hurt her in 1, he just asks her to put his hat on him and stuff. She doesnt get hurt by Sao Feng, she escapes. Jack actually DID get hurt by what she did.

i just dont think they can go much longer with this denial theory. If liz doesnt start coming around pretty early on in the movie, it wont make sense for her to change her mind in the last 5 minutes and suddenly confess everything. that kind of change has to be gradual or it wont work. the fact that she is totally treating him like sh** and putting up barriers between them seems sad to me--- because this is past the middle of 3, this scene is. Thats getting too late in the film to whip things back around, IMO. but who knows.

I kind of get Liz, but I could have her completely wrong. I don't think she's intentionally mean to Jack. The curiosity and persuasion scenes are more playful banter and she bit off more than she can chew when it comes to Jack. And she's not rejecting him because she thinks he's lower than she is. She's not a snob. She's rejecting him because she's very protective of Will and has convinced herself she loves him.
And chaining him to the mast? Well, we all agree to some level she did it either completely or partially because she was afraid to have him around her anymore, but I think she convinced herself so well that she was doing it for the group. One life to save everyone else's, not just hers. "It's not US." It was misguided, but still noble in a way and you could see it broke her to do that. So I don't think she's necessarily mean to him, she just doesn't put up with his crap, and he gives her a lot of crap.

yeah I agree with you..its why the compass tells her she wants to save Will most in this world but the man she wants most is Jack

it explains the end in a weird way too lol...once she has the thing she wanted most when it came to Will...all thats left is the emptyness. The man she wants most is now gone.

remember when she found the chest? the compass must have lead her there but its burried..so she's found it..so it doesnt need to point there anymore so it points right at Jack...it ecchos what happens later in the hut IMO..she's found Will..he's safe...but now the man she wants most is gone and she feels empty

IMO this explains that opening too..where she is widowed before marriage..She's with Will but the emptyness is there

Holy sh** you guys check out THIS interview and tell me this isnt totally in line with all our hopes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The writing team behind the Disney franchise speak

They've created some of the most iconic characters in modern movie history - based on an amusement park ride. Ted Elliott and Terry Rossio will now forever be associated with Captain Jack Sparrow, Will Turner, and Elizabeth Swann - along with all the other supporting characters in the Pirates of the Caribbean franchise.

In the second of the series, Dead Man's Chest, they've brought in a few new characters to shake things up for our trio of heroes - mainly, Davy Jones, played by Bill Nighy and Bootstrap Bill, played by Stellan Skarsgard.

What you may not know about this franchise is after the first film did so well, Disney had the idea to make both the second and third movie together. Their's and producer Jerry Bruckheimer's first demand was to hire back Ted and Terry to write the stories. That was quite a task for the two, but they were definitely ready for the challenge.

When I had the opportunity to talk with Ted and Terry, I knew I was going to be talking to two of the most imaginative people. We even got into a little bit of what will be happening in the third and final movie of the trilogy Here's what we talked about:

When you get down to writing the second and third movies, what do you talk to Johnny (Depp) and Orlando (Bloom) and Keira (Knightly) and the rest of the returning cast about these characters?

Ted Elliott: Well, actually, Terry spent more time playing chess with Orlando than he did talking about the character.

Terry Rossio: I have to say I remember going up to Keira once, on Pirates 1, and said, 'So the character, the story, anything, do you have any questions you want to ask, or back story? How you're thinking about it?' She said, 'No.' I said, 'Ok.' That was it, she got it, she played it.

Ted Elliott: With Johnny, a lot of it is talking about story, about the character. He's very aware that you need to have a really good story to have the character work.

Because Keira was so young in the first one, how much growth did you see in her between the two movies?

Ted Elliott: It really was having Keira in that story; we wouldn't have done that story without Keira. We know Johnny can play Jack, and we know Orlando can play Will. But we got Keira to make this story work; she's extraordinary.

Terry Rossio: Keira, in a way, you can say she didn't grow because she was so good to begin with. But what we discovered that anything needed to be done, if she was in the scene, it was going to turn out great - action, comedy, romance - it was going to be great.

What would you say was the hardest part about writing these two?

Terry Rossio: Leading up to the first one.

Ted Elliott: Actually, that's not really true; the first one has so much power by the fact that it's different, I think people underestimate that. The first one, people were surprised in that kind of summer movie. The second one, you do not get the advantage of surprising the audience. The challenge is how to re-create that thrill without being able to surprise them, the thrill of the discovery. They want more of the same, and we need to change that.

Terry Rossio: People want that new experience of discover and new-ness. So it was a matter of creating a new story with these characters.

What was the gamble of making these back to back?

Ted Elliott: There's a ridiculous gamble of making these films in the Caribbean during hurricane season, constructing these ships.

Terry Rossio: I was just thinking about a scene where it called for sailing on the Caribbean, on the ship are Naomie Harris, Orlando Bloom, Keira Knightly -

Ted Elliott: This is shooting for 3 -

Terry Rossio: And I was thinking anyone of those actors can open a movie - Johnny Depp, Geoffrey Rush, Chow Yun-Fat, Kevin McNally - I was looking at that and there are four movies right there.

Ted Elliott: And we also knew Bill Nighy and Tom Hollander were lurking around in the background somewhere. And Bill Nighy's performance blew me away; he was acting through what he had.

Where did Davy Jones come from?

Terry Rossio: The power of a villain can come through some kind of human aspect of them. Davy Jones' character is reacting to some kind of heartbreak. It's so much fun to write.

Ted Elliott: To make it an interesting character to play or write, there had to be some human aspect to him.

What are you looking forward to for Pirates 3 and beyond?

Terry Rossio: The thing I will say about 3 is the ending - we have to end the trilogy.

Ted Elliott: You have to find an ending that plays naturally from the beginning of the first film and know that people can walk out of the theater, having experienced a climax.

Terry Rossio: There's a part in it that has about 16 speaking parts to it and it's an incredibly pivotal scene in the story and I'm looking forward to seeing it. It's been a challenge to write and it and we have it.

Ted Elliott: It's really been fun to do different things and trying something new. In Pirates 3, the emphasis is on love, on finality, making final decisions; we're actually doing stuff that's different.

Terry Rossio: When we ended up the shaping of the ending to 2, there was skepticism, but it definitely worked.

Boy, you can say that again - it worked big time! Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest opens in theaters July 7th; it's rated PG-13.

WOW!!!
awsome!!

There is definitely hope I'm aboard the ship again yuppie!!!

i'm kind of concerned though. those interviews are really clear, but it still could go either way.

they keep saying the ending dmc in a realy definitive way. does that mean that Liz would kill anyone to save will, or did that mean that liz couldn't control herself with Jack and so had to get rid of him??? im still confused. lol.

and with "love, finality, making final decisions"... gosh i am going nuts...

and their quote about being skeptical about whether the end of 2 would work-- and then it did--- does that mean the they think the audience understood that liz was just saving will, or did they mean that the audience fell in love with the idea of liz and jack?!

gah... they are so cryptic.

IT could be both, I believe that Liz would have given up what she most wanted (Jack) just to save Will. And yes she couldn't control herself around Jack, I think she was afraid of her feelings, she didn't want to have those feelings, she wanted to Love Will only Will. That is why I though she got rid of him. Jack is gone, temptation is over. So guess what??? she was wrong




Love, final decisions, all of this sounds good to me




I understood that they were a little bit skeptical about the idea of Jack and Elizabeth falling in love and, how the audience were going to react towards it.

Originally posted by katelovespirate
i'm kind of concerned though. those interviews are really clear, but it still could go either way.

they keep saying the ending dmc in a realy definitive way. does that mean that Liz would kill anyone to save will, or did that mean that liz couldn't control herself with Jack and so had to get rid of him??? im still confused. lol.

and with "love, finality, making final decisions"... gosh i am going nuts...

and their quote about being skeptical about whether the end of 2 would work-- and then it did--- does that mean the they think the audience understood that liz was just saving will, or did they mean that the audience fell in love with the idea of liz and jack?!

gah... they are so cryptic.

no no no ..its what I've been saying..when she's with what she THOUGHT she should want...all her thoughts go back to Jack..when I left that cinema I didnt think she had chosen Will at all..infact the two were further apart than ever before. When she's with what she thinks she should want her thoughts go back to Jack..she feels widowed from him..when ever she thinks she's happy with Will there is an obvious emptiness and it reflects back to good ole Jack lol it happens 2 times in DMC at the start and end...IMO its gonna happen at the end of AWE

her final decison in DMC? refusing to forget Jack and going back to him of course

my opinion anyway

and did we not learn that she wants to save Will most in this world but she actually wants Jack most in this world

IMO its clear she's protective over Will like he's her family

but with Jack..he protects HER

and thanks for the interview hun xx

and I'm so happy..I knew they were giving his character more depth..thank god I wasnt thinking nonsense

By the end of DMC Jack desired her all the more according to the novel of the story...so yeah..Jack has made a choice by the end of it. He's going to love this woman.

and IMO its clear that Elizbaeth has no one else intruding on her thoughts except Jack..even when she chains him up it means that she's totally not ready for him..she's behind him in terms of her feelings for him..its why she was so afraid..he's ready and verty bold when it comes to making statments to her about accepting her in his life..that ending where he came back it was the call of adventure to Liz "leave the ordinary world (will) and be with the special world (me)" the hero is always terrified of the special world at first.so she ran away from him..but she did cross the first threshold before the story ended I notced..meaning she wants him back in her life..she's fully stepping into the special world for the first time.

with what we're wanting though, the story is going to have to TURN at some point... ya know?

Cause with what we know of 3 so far... Liz is still in denial, still trying to make things work with will, and Jack is still growing more and more the victim of unrequited love.

there would have to be a turning point... and i would hope the turning point wasnt the last 4 minutes... and the way its looking, how are they going to pull that off?

I think its a definite possibility, as far as will stabbing the heart, and then liz and jack being left alone together...

BUT we are going to HAVE to see her character change... we are going to HAVE to see her finally acknowledge to herself that she loves Jack, and make a choice to pursue it.

and that cant happen after will is gone or it won't make any sense. she has to recognize and react before the ending, or else we have no hope... ya know what i mean?

Very, very interesting.

I read the first interview too. I posted the link on another thread. This is really exciting, hopefully Ted/Terry would be kind and give the audience what it wants:

A Jack/Liz Ending.

You know, I was just watching a video on You Tube. It showed Elizabeth after she chained Jack to the ship and was on the boat with Will. He was all, 'Where's Jack' and she gave him a really mad look. A look with pure hatred, and when she talked back, she sounded so cold.

Like she was angry at him, because it was him, afterall, that she had killed Jack for. And she realized that it was his fault that she couldn't be with Jack, his fault that she was doomed to live her life in Port Royal, his fault that she can't be free.

His fault she killed her love.

Originally posted by katelovespirate
with what we're wanting though, the story is going to have to TURN at some point... ya know?

Cause with what we know of 3 so far... Liz is still in denial, still trying to make things work with will, and Jack is still growing more and more the victim of unrequited love.

there would have to be a turning point... and i would hope the turning point wasnt the last 4 minutes... and the way its looking, how are they going to pull that off?

I think its a definite possibility, as far as will stabbing the heart, and then liz and jack being left alone together...

BUT we are going to HAVE to see her character change... we are going to HAVE to see her finally acknowledge to herself that she loves Jack, and make a choice to pursue it.

and that cant happen after will is gone or it won't make any sense. she has to recognize and react before the ending, or else we have no hope... ya know what i mean?

yes when Jack crossed the first threshold..he was still in denial over what he really wanted most..although he did take Liz on board..but stil there was that battle going on with what was most imporatant to him. He lied to her etc..used her..he obviously wanted her but still he ws mainly thinking of himself

honestly what ever the established special world is to each character THAT is where they are going to end up..it is where the story will end and its not Will IMO for each character their special world is what they cros into after meeting Tia.and Elizabeth decided to go and get Jack..he is the special world that she refused and now has accepted to step into

Jack only truly accepted LIz as an obligation in his life at the very end remember

Makes sense. Really, it's great.

I happy now, it seems all us Jack/Elizabeth fans are seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. We've craked the codes, I really think there's hope for our perfect ending.

they also called each of them hero's and they have established that this is a new story in itself..so each character is going through the 12 steps..obviously at different paces otherwise it probably would not work as an entire story..each has ended on a different step but the most important thing is for the movie to have some sort of closure.

Each character has met the supernatural helper of this story who in Harris's own words "can see into people's true hearts and true desires" and she seems to be leading them to their ultimate fate's

and we ALL know where Will ends up right?? She lead him to his ultimate fate

so why would she not to the same for Jack and Elizabeth?

She lead Jack to Elizabeth

and Elizabeth to Jack

each character has STEPPED over the first threshold..Liz being the last to do so and THIS is where the story truly begins for that character

I'm also wondering what would be the biggest twist they could shove in our faces when it comes to Jack at the end of the trilogy..and IMO it might be the first thing I said to my mum the second after I saw DMC with that Liz and Jack ending.

IMO it would be a hilarious ending and a real shocker to see.

what was that? what WOULD be the biggest twist for jack?

walking off the with whores

OR

getting liz

OR

being victim to unrequited love

?????

lol tee hee

come on Guess..age of pirates coming to a close..Jack must change to suit the new world or perish..

9 years in the future after the events of AWE?

little so and so runs up to a clean and shaven man who appears to be his father and Liz's "spouse"..aww thats nice she's found a nice man

turns around and **** ME IS THAT JACK?

What whores?

Originally posted by LovelyOne
lol tee hee

come on Guess..age of pirates coming to a close..Jack must change to suit the new world or perish..

9 years in the future after the events of AWE?

little so and so runs up to a clean and shaven man who appears to be his father and Liz's "spouse"..aww thats nice she's found a nice man

turns around and **** ME IS THAT JACK?


jack clean shaven? awe that would depress me. lol.

spouse is fine though.

leave out the so and so. i hate it when movies do that. lol.

however, it would be very t and t to do that. gross. lol.

lol you gotta admit that would be like a WHOAH! moment

Originally posted by katelovespirate
with what we're wanting though, the story is going to have to TURN at some point... ya know?

Cause with what we know of 3 so far... Liz is still in denial, still trying to make things work with will, and Jack is still growing more and more the victim of unrequited love.

there would have to be a turning point... and i would hope the turning point wasnt the last 4 minutes... and the way its looking, how are they going to pull that off?

I think its a definite possibility, as far as will stabbing the heart, and then liz and jack being left alone together...

BUT we are going to HAVE to see her character change... we are going to HAVE to see her finally acknowledge to herself that she loves Jack, and make a choice to pursue it.

and that cant happen after will is gone or it won't make any sense. she has to recognize and react before the ending, or else we have no hope... ya know what i mean?

I think she will acknowledge and accept she has feelings for Jack a little bit after the middle of the film. I believe is going to happen long before she marries Will. I believe she is going to marry Will to try to save him. I think she is going to know that Will will try to stab the heart. So she is going to accept his proposal.
Another thing that has me confused is that supposedly Wills stabs the heart to save his father, but I believe is because he has a powerful reason for doing it. Because at the end he would be dying for his father, not for Elizabeth. And It wouldn't make sense him saying in the 1st movie that he would die for her.

ok im tired of babling

ur not babling! and yet everyone listens to u >_< lool

like i said in a rescent post *cough*which no one cared*cough*(oh well)
i think that movie 2 was a resolution of jack sparrows internal conflicts. the secon movie will be the resolution of will/liz internal feelings and where will that relatioship...which unfortunetly will face their doom..."till death do us apart" as i always say.

sommat to add..

How do you create a sense of closure for Dead Man's Chest even though you have more story to tell in the third film?


Rossio: The closure comes from a resolution of the thematic argument of the film. While there may be some plot issues still dangling, as long as the film makes a definitive statement in terms of the emotional story of some of the characters, there's a sense of it being complete. Ideally (knock on wood).

Elliott: What's really interesting is -- if there was no sequel after this, if there was no third movie, with the basic emotional moments and what happens at the end of this one -- I would be comfortable having it go out . We would have resolved the plot of Davy Jones differently, but, in terms of what happens with Jack and Will and Elizabeth and the conclusion of our movie, I feel comfortable that it would work whether you had a sequel coming up or not.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

so the closure is supposed to be there when it comes to Jack Will and ELizabeth
what I see is Jack deciding to make Elizabeth an obligation in his life and loving her all the more after doing what she did to him. He goes down fighting for her IMO...he's decided to take her on in life "hello beastie"

I see that Will has now shifted priorities. He is concentrated on his father he is determined to stab the heart..He has been introduced to his destiny which is the Dutchman

Elizabeth refused to embrace her pirate side..she refused jack because IMO she saw the temptation as too great and she wanted to save Will most in the world despite wanting Jack the most in the world..but her final decision after having Will with her and his intentions being somewhere else?

All she wants is Jack back...there is a VOID there that cant be filled by Will being with her safe and sound Its a repeating pattern in this movie I think..it happens 3 times..well its implied once more than the other 2

Once the whelp is gone?

maybe the pattern will stop repeating and she can just have the damn man she wants most in this world.

So if we had closure in DMC...we would be Happy...
because Jack and Liz kiss..
we know that Jack comes back to the Pearl because he has decided that LIZ and his crew is more important than the Pearl, "SHe's only a ship mate"...

she chains Jack to the mast because now she knows that the moment has come to prove that he is a good man and he SOOO Proved it, he does something courageous...

"this is the only way, don't you see" (possibly the underlying meaning is that she is doing away with the temptation "don't you see, I am engaged to Will, I can't have you both, so this is the only way, don't you see"...instead of the obvious "this is the only way we can escape cuz the Kracken wants you, not us"....he smiles cuz he understands what she really means...and that she "thinks" she is doing what she truly wants....that she is acting on that selfish impulse

Will witnesses the kiss and when he and Liz come face to face they seem kind of hostile with each other...I feel no closeness between Will and Liz....

At Tia's cabin, Liz seems really distraught....she doesn't toast to Jack - because she is so distraught over what she has done and how much she realizes that without him the world has no meaning....will can offer her no comfort....she wants Jack not Will....

So, in other words...it's clear that Jack and Liz have chosen each other, although W/E shippers would say it's obvious she chose Will...totally ignoring all the passion and mixed emotions that come across in that scene...the way they move in for a second kiss, yet retreat...so hot, passionate...like forbidden love...so intense....so heartbreaking...I want you, but I can't have you....it's bittersweet...a kiss between two people in love, yet each knowing it can never be....but hopefully, hope is restored...

I think it would be great in AWE if Will and Elizabeth both realize that Jack was actually protecting Will when he stopped him from stabbing the heart of Davy Jones on the beach..cuz Jack has known all along that the person who stabs the heart becomes the immortal Captain of the Flying Dutchman...once again proving that Jack's ulterior motives are actually heroic moments meant to save everyone else around him...

Originally posted by lovethemtigers
I think it would be great in AWE if Will and Elizabeth both realize that Jack was actually protecting Will when he stopped him from stabbing the heart of Davy Jones on the beach..cuz Jack has known all along that the person who stabs the heart becomes the immortal Captain of the Flying Dutchman...once again proving that Jack's ulterior motives are actually heroic moments meant to save everyone else around him...

I think there is something in the leaked script that suggest that Jack is telling Will about it, that whoever stabs the heart gets to be Capt of the flying Dutchmen. Its almost at the end. So yes it suggest that Jack tells him the story about the heart and the FD.

Most of Jack's actions have in one way or another been more to protect Will than to bring him harm. I think Jack feels this strange sort of obligation to him because he's Bootstrap Bill's son and Bootstrap died to honor their friendship. So, Jack's way of honoring his sacrifice is to watch over Will in his own way. That doesn't mean always protecting him from harm. He tries to the best of his ability to save Will, more than often, from Will's poor decisions. At times, he even allows Will to make those poor decisions, more to allow him to learn by failing in the pirate world. In that way, Will does learn from his mistakes.

I'm running on the assumption that most of you have read about Jack's past experience as an honest Merchant Sailor for the ETTC before I continue with what I say. Jack wasn't always a pirate, his unselfish moments show that he wasn't born to betray. It's a learned habit. In my opinion, there was a time when Jack was a little like Will. Young, idealistic, honest, noble etc, though much more clever.
His dealings with Beckett in his past, as well as a long stream of betrayals, Barbossa, (Tia Dalma is a possibility if she was his love interest in the past) have taught him that it's far easier to betray and deal in half truths before he can be betrayed.

So, even though sometimes Jack sets Will up to fail, Will does learn from that. Look at how much better he is at navigating the Pirate world. He was taken advantage of in the first movie by Barbossa, but successfully navigated around Davy Jones in a show of Jack-like cunning.

This isn't to say, however, that there isn't always something in it for Jack when he manipulates Will. I'm only saying that even at his blackest, Jack has purer intentions than what lies on the surface level.

The same can also apply to Jack's betraying Will and tricking him onto the ship of the Flying Dutchman. I honestly believe that his intention was to get Will out of the way to rescue Elizabeth, because Jack has the intelligence to do so. Will is too emotionally involved and subsequently rushes to 'rash' action.

^^^thats so true. jack is the type to kind of bring u into troubel, but wont leave u there at least he'll go back for u and clean his mistake. Hes the type to use u but ur not forgotten lol. Thats why ppl have problems trusting him especially Will. But u really have to know jack and trust him!! hes against mutiny, he wont abandon anyone and betray them. He desnt want to make his mates suffer the same way he did with barbossa and his crew.

IMO...something else happend to Jack to make him turn to a life where he doesnt have to care for anyone..or have to take responsibilty..a P burn was enough for him to decide to take no responsibility for anyone ever again?..I dont think so..he's trying to shut something out I think...I think its a main reson why he fears to let anyone close to him..fear of being hurt

Also I dont think he was going to save Lizzie..I dont know why but I just get the feeling..he hadn't met the mentor yet.

It was strange though how he stopped dead in his tracks and only THEN did he have the courage to try and escape..but it wasnt to go running to Elizabeth..it was to find thr chest quick..and then he would save her it seems..he still had himself at No1 here..he was still afraid to face up to Liz because he has all these feelings for her...he wants her but at the same time he doesnt...at the moment anyway..its only until he crosses the first threshold (after meeting the supernatiral aid) does he willingly take her on board in life.

talking about jack feelings....do you think he will feel sorry for will once he dies, or admires him in a way..?

well Will kinda turns against Jack for much of movie 3 e goes onto the side of the EITC and Davy Jones..and sends enemies after Jack etc..so IMO Jack might be slightly pissed off with him...I think those two are going to drift even further appart.

jack might be asking himself "why does he always do something stupid, I have told him so many times not to TRY to do anything stupid"

Originally posted by LovelyOne
well Will kinda turns against Jack for much of movie 3 e goes onto the side of the EITC and Davy Jones..and sends enemies after Jack etc..so IMO Jack might be slightly pissed off with him...I think those two are going to drift even further appart. '


this is kind of sad, though, in a way..if you look back at POTC 1 - the way it ended, Jack and Will fighting side by side....Will risking his life to save Jack's - "my place is between you and Jack"....and it's all because of the writers putting Jack into the love triangle...before all the leaked script came out and everything...I was hoping that their could be some resolution...that perhaps Will would come to realize...in a honest, man sort of way...that he and Liz have grown apart...that he would actually fall out of love with Liz and realize that she and Jack belong together and willingly step aside and all three of them could be happy together...ya know...Jack and Will friends, Will and Liz friends, Jack and Liz lovers....Oh well...so much for the POTC 1 - the 2 sequels pretty much does away with the original theme of that movie.

It's kind of like Jurassic Park...I hated with Jurassic Park 3 came out and we find out she marries someone else besides Dr. Grant...Dr. Grant is all alone...it kind of negates the good feeling at the end of Jurassic One...where it shows her smiling at him because he has learned to love children..it makes you think they will get married and have children and then 3 comes out and she is married to someone totally different...so same with the POTC trilogy...by the time AWE is over....POTC is negated, almost like it doesn't even tie in with 2 and 3...

Originally posted by lovethemtigers
'


this is kind of sad, though, in a way..if you look back at POTC 1 - the way it ended, Jack and Will fighting side by side....Will risking his life to save Jack's - "my place is between you and Jack"....and it's all because of the writers putting Jack into the love triangle...before all the leaked script came out and everything...I was hoping that their could be some resolution...that perhaps Will would come to realize...in a honest, man sort of way...that he and Liz have grown apart...that he would actually fall out of love with Liz and realize that she and Jack belong together and willingly step aside and all three of them could be happy together...ya know...Jack and Will friends, Will and Liz friends, Jack and Liz lovers....Oh well...so much for the POTC 1 - the 2 sequels pretty much does away with the original theme of that movie.


Well, the writers have said to look at POTC 1 as a movie in itself. They're almost considering it a separate entity from 2 and 3. However, I think you're right. Perhaps that is the true bitter sweet quality to AWE. The strengths of friendships are being tested and not withstanding the strain. If the three of them can work past their differences a little, I think that would qualify a bitter sweet ending. But if Will and Jack are permanently at odds, I would call that tragic, wouldn't you?

However, that's not saying that Jack isn't still loyal to Will and in his own way, Will still loyal to Jack. There are moments when the friendship, however shaky, is still there. Not to mention, Will seems almost hell bent on making Jack admit his feelings in the script in AWE, almost as though he needs to hear the words from Jack's lips.

They make sacrifices for each other on their own terms. Jack was willing to look after Elizabeth and never say a word of his brewing attraction in POTC 1 in honor of Will. He continued to be noble in POTC 2 by staying away from Port Royal even though his attraction to Elizabeth is so bad that it's affecting the way he lives. Jack went to his death, knowing on some level that he was dying so that the crew, and more importantly Will and Elizabeth would live.

Will sacrificed his honor and nearly his life to save Jack's life in POTC 1. He was willing to be the one to go over to the Flying Dutchman to find the key for Jack, even though he didn't know the full implications of his choice. The question is, what is Will willing to sacrifice for Jack's sake? Jack even reminds Will of his sacrifices in the AWE script during the scene where Will's betrayal becomes aparent. Somehow, Will is going to have to choose to sacrifice something in order to be square with Jack. In that way, I think there may be some peace in their relationship.

Originally posted by savvysparrow
Well, the writers have said to look at POTC 1 as a movie in itself. They're almost considering it a separate entity from 2 and 3. However, I think you're right. Perhaps that is the true bitter sweet quality to AWE. The strengths of friendships are being tested and not withstanding the strain. If the three of them can work past their differences a little, I think that would qualify a bitter sweet ending. But if Will and Jack are permanently at odds, I would call that tragic, wouldn't you?

However, that's not saying that Jack isn't still loyal to Will and in his own way, Will still loyal to Jack. There are moments when the friendship, however shaky, is still there. Not to mention, Will seems almost hell bent on making Jack admit his feelings in the script in AWE, almost as though he needs to hear the words from Jack's lips.

They make sacrifices for each other on their own terms. Jack was willing to look after Elizabeth and never say a word of his brewing attraction in POTC 1 in honor of Will. He continued to be noble in POTC 2 by staying away from Port Royal even though his attraction to Elizabeth is so bad that it's affecting the way he lives. Jack went to his death, knowing on some level that he was dying so that the crew, and more importantly Will and Elizabeth would live.

Will sacrificed his honor and nearly his life to save Jack's life in POTC 1. He was willing to be the one to go over to the Flying Dutchman to find the key for Jack, even though he didn't know the full implications of his choice. The question is, what is Will willing to sacrifice for Jack's sake? Jack even reminds Will of his sacrifices in the AWE script during the scene where Will's betrayal becomes aparent. Somehow, Will is going to have to choose to sacrifice something in order to be square with Jack. In that way, I think there may be some peace in their relationship.

Very true..I like the way you explained this....Jack does stay away from Port Royal because of his feelings for Liz...he doesn help Will find Liz despite his growing attraction toward her....he does willingly accept the Kracken in the end of DMC so that Liz and Will can be together....ah that Jack, with every thought he just gets more and more heroic....

This is from the Odyssey not the script writers..but me thinks its VERY similar to Jack..and Tia's supposed "lovers relationship in the past"

In Jungian terms, Odysseus has been ruled for years by his animus, his male self. He has denied the feminine, his anima. When we deny a significant part of our psyche, we often end up confronting it outside of ourselves, and usually, at least initially, in a negative or extreme manner.

From this viewpoint, we can view Odysseus' seven years with Calypso as seven years of feeling engulfed by his own need for dependency on the feminine - both the mother principle which forces his comes to terms with the powerless boy within who craves a mother's care, and also the inner adolescent who feels at the mercy of his sexual desires. The engulfment by Calypso expresses his own lack of control as his deeper unconscious self takes him over and possesses him. He both desires and despises the very union with the feminine he craves - despises, because within it there is no arena for his masculinity except in its most primal form.

During his stay on Calypso's isle, Odysseus is never able to fully accept his situation. His body is alive, but only in regard to sensuality. Calypso holds him so tightly in her embrace, that he is not free to embrace her in turn. And because of his unresolved grief and trauma, his heart remains closed. (he left Tia it seems)

But at the same time, Odysseus is also compelled to surrender. Only in surrender can another part of himself emerge and lead him forward once again. Only in surrender can he feel and release the deep grief he has been carrying all these years, and own the feminine energy within himself. And by the seventh year, he is ready to move into the next stage, what Houston refers to as the stage of active longing. He weeps ceaselessly, for Ithaca and for Penelope. "why is the rum always gone?" Jack wants Elizabeth badly

For Odysseus now, the male is no longer repressed or expressed in its lowest dimension. Nor does the female need anymore to be projected, or to be encountered in its most primitive manifestation. The feminine within is transformed by grief and lets go, as Calypso lets go. Odysseus awakens again to his heroic, adventuresome self. But this self has only one focus - to unite with the feminine energy in its most positive form. To go home, home to Ithaca, home to Penelope.

Even the lure of immortality cannot entrap him now. His pride, which has led him to continually prove his superhuman capabilities, is no longer his primary source of motivation. The heroic in him now is directing all his energies toward the journey toward both inner and outer home.

Now Odysseus is ready, having discovered a manhood which can confront the inner and outer waters, to face the full wrath of Poseidon's waves. Only now can he fully surrender to the sea, to the vast and powerful feminine, and be reborn. (kraken looking like a giant you know what...Posiedon/Davy..Jacks gonna come back and be READY for elizabeth)

Only then does he arrive in the land of the Phaeaicans, naked as a newborn, but able to now suppress and gain command over the sexuality which so recently dominated his existence - as he covers his private parts with a leaf. For now he meets the feminine in a virgin, youthful form. Nausicaa is an expression of his own virgin and developing anima. He treats her with dignity, grace, self-control and respect. And in honoring her, he also honors himself.

Jack is going to return differently when it comes to Elizabeth..he was already starting to treat her differently anyway. but now he will be reborn and able to fully embrace the feminine.

I like it, and I generally agree with you. When Jack does return, he treats Elizabeth very differently than he did in DMC. In the AWE script he vows to take what had happened between them to the grave and the interactions between them are based less on flirtation and have more depth....

There's little doubt in my mind that when the authors decided to kill Jack that they did so with the intention of re-inventing the character. Maybe re-inventing is the wrong word. According to the writers, they've talked extensively about whether or not Jack's character has changed, or if it's merely been revealed.

I think his character has been revealed; mainly that Jack has character, has a heart and a conscience. He has the ability to turn off his conscience and heart when the occasion calls for it, but generally, they do exist.

It's not that it hasn't always been there--over time in the Pirate world he lost his better self. (By the way, I like the Jungian comparisons! I was thinking of doing a comparison like that for the main characters in DMC, but it got to be way too long )

If you look at all of the characters in DMC in terms of the Jungian theory, the circles that are meant to complete the psyche are all out of whack for each character--including dear William. AWE will have to achieve balance for each of the characters.

As you said, the only thing Jack has left to complete his circle to achieve balance in his character is the feminine. Although, you could argue that the shadow in his character---the subversive, trickster, betrayer self who was developed to protect his inner nature was what was causing the problem which in turn threw the other proportions out of whack. Does that make sense? I think I'll quit before the ramblings make no sense....ummm....Look, an undead monkey!

All I'm saying is that a lot of people don't understand where the Jack in AWE is coming from. They're not getting the melancholy nature, or how he's no longer outrageously flirting with Elizabeth. In short, they don't understand how it is Jack Sparrow has suddenly become vulnerable. They should understand, even from his reaction to her actions at the end of DMC that Jack will return the same man, but in my opinion, a slightly better, less morally conflicted man.

Its been revealed IMO..its a return to his old self..the one who was there before the years of being seperated from embracing the female form. Odysseus didnt always despise the female form..it happened gradually..

the 7 years of having to face up to the female..IMO is all this stuff with Calypso and Jack now starting to yearn for more in life:..Elizabeth

even the yearning for Penelope and Ithica is just like Jack yearning to go back to port Royal and be with Elizabeth (according to Ted it was pointing there)


"a lady, widowed before her marriage. A virgin too, likely as not, searching for her husband lost at sea"
You cant even be called a widow before marriage unless you were married and lost a husband before hand.

whilst Penelope is in Ithica she yearns for her husband to return to her..he is "lost at sea"

IMO..Will is Telemacus and Elizabeth treats him like a protective mother. (telemacus is actually sent to go in search of Odysseus lol) but Will actually bumps into his REAL father which i find very intersting. Its like he is being seperated from this Odyssey PotC story and has his own story on the side.

It's been revealed to you--and to me, and to every person who bothered to read the rough draft script with a little more attention, which is pretty much every one here. However, on some other boards which shall remain anonymous, they're missing that bigger picture. That was all I was saying. I hate above all the arguments against the J/E ship that people say that Jack can't change, that his first and only love is the sea. Usually when I read that, I don't even know which evidence to choose that suggests otherwise. There's what's presented to us in the script, what the writers have said, and as you've aptly pointed out, moments in ancient literature to suggest otherwise!

And I agree that his old self has returned. Elizabeth's belief that he is a good man at heart brought that out of him. Every time she mentions that he's a good man, or more importantly, when she says that she believes him, it encourages him to to act as he once would have.

Oooo---which brings to mind the scene where he trades Elizabeth to Sao Fen. Obviously, he trades her to spare his own life, and so forth. I also think he does it to keep her away from Will not only to give himself a chance with her but also to protect her. What has just occurred to me though, and this will be part of the conflict with AWE, is that though he's returned to the good man he once was, he can't let that show in the Pirate world. He'd be raked over the coals by the likes of Barbossa, Sao Fen etc...So, in order to maintain his persona, he has to follow in the precedent of behavior he'd set up for himself in the past....Wow, that gives that scene so much more depth. He'll want to prove himself to Elizabeth, but can't do so in front of the people he can't trust. Which in turn, motivates her to believe that she was wrong about who he really is....

Sorry if y'all figured that out a long time ago

Also I dont think jack would murder people^^ but he does have his own code of conduct

EDIT - actually what you say in the last paragraph makes more sense than how I first read it..you are correct there I think lol.

AHA! I think Achillies might be dear William..

Achilles himself is not a two-dimensional stereotype. He has a tragic flaw, which can best be identified as hubris (an overbearing arrogance or misguided pride) as one of several distinguishing traits. But Achilles is a simpler character. According to the myth the Homeric Greeks would have known, Achilles was given a choice by the gods to live a short, glorious life full of excitement and heroism or a long, tranquil life with little recognition or fame. Achilles, of course, chose the glorious life; therefore, he achieves a kind of immortality through valor and intense, honest devotion to a cause.