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We had a Maul vs. Grievous, but I think it's more fair if we give Maul 10 Years Experience, in Force, Lightsaber, etc, whatever you can think of

Setting=Naboo Power Station (Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan vs. Maul)

maul...force lets him win.

"don't be so proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet, is insignificant next to the power of the force."

GG is too overrated...its funny on the back of his transformer box, it give him a 5 out of 10 for force ability...riiiiight.

But then again this is full powered GG, the same GG who managed to take out 5 jedi at once. I say Maul wins, but it would be close. The force would be the deciding factor.

The Jedi that you speak of were exhausted. Anyway, this Grievous lost to Mace Windu. According to LOE, Grievous's little computer brain could create a lightsaber form frighteningly like Vapaad, so he'd probably be able to create a fighting form much like the one Maul used, and figure out the weaknesses

We don't know if they had regained their strenght with the force. They didn't look tired either. But we cannot really know, but Grievous had fear on his side, which he won't have here...

Ki-Adi-Mundi said to the Council, "True, we were exhausted, but since when did one enemy stand up to 5 Jedi?" or something along those lines

Oh cool, didn't know that. When did he say it? When they were in the Council in the CW? And that doesn't eliminate the fact that Grievous did it without too much difficult and while only using 2 swords, and that three jedi and 2 clone troopers ran from him...

Two of those Jedi were gravely wounded. They were also panting even before the fight began, and sweating, which are signs of fatigue. Maul wins, but it's close. I'd put TPM Maul + 10 more years of experience as even with Tyranus, but that's just speculation, and Tyranus > Grievous.

They were? Who?

No, like 1 or 2 was panting before the fight, and Ki-Adi (no one else was sweating what I could see) was sweating because they heard Grievous come and prepared to face him and he tried to figure out which direction he would come in. One yelled "we cannot face him" and Ki-Adi replies "we must try, stay focused". (Pretty dumb, since Yoda trains Luke by saying, "there is no try, do or do not".

I highly doubt Maul reached his potential in TPM. I would say he would gone to be as powerful as Dooku. Dooku as we know can defeat GG.

He had trained Grievous from scratch, he knew how he fought, he knew his unortodox style, even then he had trouble with him...

Originally posted by kamikz
They were? Who?

No, like 1 or 2 was panting before the fight, and Ki-Adi (no one else was sweating what I could see) was sweating because they heard Grievous come and prepared to face him and he tried to figure out which direction he would come in. One yelled "we cannot face him" and Ki-Adi replies "we must try, stay focused". (Pretty dumb, since Yoda trains Luke by saying, "there is no try, do or do not".
I know K'Kruhj was panting and was hunkered down near the ground, I can't remember if anyone else was panting. Ki-Adi was the only one we saw sweating but it he was I don't see why the others wouldn't be. They had just fought a big battle, they all must have been exhausted.

They sweat because Grievous was closing in. They didn't sweat before that, they started to sweat because Grievous was coming, and they were scared of him...

noooooo, it was said somewhere that at the time of TPM, Maul was about peaked out...he would never reach Dooku's level. Dooku was more powerful than the movies showed. The only thing Maul would gain with 10 years is some fighting experience, but not enough to Match Dooku or even OB1 (ROTS).

I will try to find where this was said about Maul, since i know there might be a fanboy or two out there chomping at the bit to defend him...and no im not referring to anyone in particular, so dont get your panties in a bunch.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
noooooo, it was said somewhere that at the time of TPM, Maul was about peaked out...he would never reach Dooku's level. Dooku was more powerful than the movies showed. The only thing Maul would gain with 10 years is some fighting experience, but not enough to Match Dooku or even OB1 (ROTS).

I will try to find where this was said about Maul, since i know there might be a fanboy or two out there chomping at the bit to defend him...and no im not referring to anyone in particular, so dont get your panties in a bunch.

He was a nublet in the Dark Side at the time, he could very well learn many Force Powers, Lightsaber skills, combat experience, and increase in power. Nowhere does it say he was peaked(unless you count his Youth being peak in strength and such), he was an Apprentice, not a Master

I've had this debate with Ush "Almighty", however, he can't be wrong. Ever. So I had to give up, but whatever. The actual quote goes as follows (and also note that this is not Qui-Gon's thoughts as people tried to say in the past debate, it's definitely the narrator telling you this as a factual statement):

"Darth Maul was a warrior in his prime, never to be any better, his powers at their apex."

-- The Phantom Menace novelization, Chapter 21 by Terry Brooks.

Originally posted by Advent
I've had this debate with Ush "Almighty", however, he can't be wrong. Ever. So I had to give up, but whatever. The actual quote goes as follows (and also note that this is not Qui-Gon's thoughts as people tried to say in the past debate, it's definitely the narrator telling you this as a factual statement):

"Darth Maul was a warrior in his prime, never to be any better, his powers at their apex."

-- The Phantom Menace novelization, Chapter 21 by Terry Brooks.

We can't know that is factual, as he only knew a few Force Powers from what we saw, and you can ALWAYS improve in Fighting Skills if you look at it in Real Life terms, Martial Artists always improve to perfect things, develop new moves, everything

Yes, but there's a thing called "potential" in Star Wars. We aren't limited (in a way, yes, but you know what I mean) to "potential". For example, once Anakin would reach his potential - how's he going to get any stronger? It's basically a level cap (think Warcraft, some RPG, etc.).

EDIT: And according to Ush "Almighty", you can take it in a different way, in which case it'd still be factual.

Originally posted by Advent
Yes, but there's a thing called "potential" in Star Wars. We aren't limited (in a way, yes, but you know what I mean) to "potential". For example, once Anakin would reach his potential - how's he going to get any stronger? It's basically a level cap (think Warcraft, some RPG, etc.).

EDIT: And according to Ush "Almighty", you can take it in a different way, in which case it'd still be factual.

I guess that makes sense, but you see where I'm coming from? The Jedi/Sith had to practice/focus in order to learn Powers over long periods of time, so he SHOULD be able to learn more Force Powers.

Lightsaber skills I dunno, I see it in Martial Arts type ranking, at 3rd Degree Blackbelt, you're usually declared Master level, and can take students, yet then there's Grandmasters at like 10th Degree, just the same as almost every Jedi of some importance being a "Master" of their respective form, yet then there's people like Obi-Wan who are THE Master of their Lightsaber form. I would assume he is still capable of improving in that

right but you have to understand that not everyone would make it that far. Everyone has their limit. lets say you and i made it to 3rd degree black belt, just cause we can do that in no way means we can get to 5th degree, let alone 10th. Otherwise, everyone would do it. Vader was never a master, but i would only Sidious above him due to what the flanneled one said. Maul was in his prime,(thanks advent for the quote, i just couldnt remember where to look). Once youre topped out, thats it, thats why only one person could be the "one". If anyone could be powerful enough to fulfil the prophecy, then they would have. Now i know that might not be the best example being that Ani never reached his potential, but i think you see where I'm coming from.
Now i think maul could maybe improve slightly on his saber skills he already had, but in no way could ever rival Dooku.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
right but you have to understand that not everyone would make it that far. Everyone has their limit. lets say you and i made it to 3rd degree black belt, just cause we can do that in no way means we can get to 5th degree, let alone 10th. Otherwise, everyone would do it. Vader was never a master, but i would only Sidious above him due to what the flanneled one said. Maul was in his prime,(thanks advent for the quote, i just couldnt remember where to look). Once youre topped out, thats it, thats why only one person could be the "one". If anyone could be powerful enough to fulfil the prophecy, then they would have. Now i know that might not be the best example being that Ani never reached his potential, but i think you see where I'm coming from.
Now i think maul could maybe improve slightly on his saber skills he already had, but in no way could ever rival Dooku.

The only problem in advancing much past 3rd degree is finding a suitable Master of higher rank. Palpatine was probably the greatest master of Juyo, so he does have that factor helping his improvement. And Midichloriens don't automatically determine your Ability do they? I'm sure with work they are capable of becoming stronger, it's just harder.

I doubt it would only be "slightly", I'd say he could go up with the greats in saber skill, Force Powers, he could at least learn Grip/Crush like every other Sith.

mmmmm...i still doubt it though. Palps had him since he was a small boy and didnt really release him til he was about peaked out. I dont know, I dont think he would lean many more powers. We know he knows push, throw, and most likely grab...he may even crush but when fighting two fast Jedi, he wouldnt have the time to utilize them. And i really don't want to turn this into a "force power/strike attack simultaneously" debate like with Ox, but i dont think he could risk using a power that takes a little more time. I think, based on what i've read and heard, that he was peaked out in TPM, and any improvement would be minimal. Thats just me tho.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
mmmmm...i still doubt it though. Palps had him since he was a small boy and didnt really release him til he was about peaked out. I dont know, I dont think he would lean many more powers. We know he knows push, throw, and most likely grab...he may even crush but when fighting two fast Jedi, he wouldnt have the time to utilize them. And i really don't want to turn this into a "force power/strike attack simultaneously" debate like with Ox, but i dont think he could risk using a power that takes a little more time. I think, based on what i've read and heard, that he was peaked out in TPM, and any improvement would be minimal. Thats just me tho.

Another thing, he probably couldn't train Maul much till Plagueis died, and even Jedi don't really learn much until being Knighted, before that they're crap, Maul was probably at Knight level at the time of TPM, not Master

right but what im saying is, not everyone is bred to be Masters. And i know you can say whats the point of picking an apprentice that wont be that good, but at the same time, theyre sith...in the back of their minds they dont want someone stronger than them cause they dont want to be betryed.

In the situation of Grievous defeating five Jedi mentioned earlier, they were indeed very fatigued. Prior to the events captured in the cartoon, they had survived their flagship being shot down (the large Acclamator ruins they fought in) and waged war, without reinforcements, against a full army of super battle droids.

So, it's kinda less amazing, even though it's rather scary.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
right but what im saying is, not everyone is bred to be Masters. And i know you can say whats the point of picking an apprentice that wont be that good, but at the same time, theyre sith...in the back of their minds they dont want someone stronger than them cause they dont want to be betryed.

Actually, the Sith liked their Apprentices to betray them, Sidious did at least, he was hoping Vader would become leet, and take over, and he also wanted Maul to try and actually kill him

ummm yeaaaahh...im gonna need something to back that up with. That doesnt seem very sith like. I know Sidious said Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us...but remember what Yoda said earlier, "lies, mistrust are his ways now." or something close to that. Sith often lie. They all want more power. If Palps wanted Vader to take him over, then why spend over 20 years getting to the point where he was FINALLY in control, just to be overthrown later that same night or next day? I'm referring to Anakin telling Padme that he could overthrow him, which i took to be somewhat of an immediate plan. At that point, I dont believe that Anakin still liked Palps, I think he just wanted to use his power to save Padme. I mean he told him to his face he would certainly like to kill him...

If Maul has gone beyond getting his ass kicked by padawans, he wins.

Maul because of Force powers.