Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Well we had the marvel handbook system, and other members such as Mindsip have conceived similar but arguably more accurate devices based on the original . This on the other hand is completely new, based on a characters all round capabilities rather than provincial strength level. Similar to the Power hierarchy this system groups together based on their potential threat level. Characters are measured on their damage capabilities rather than their measurable limits. This system would work for all universes and could be adopted by the universes respective security systems (E.G. Shield, Checkmate/Cadmus or Stormwatch). What do you guys think ? :

1. Requires military intervention to be stopped, may require the use of WMDS

2. City Level threat (Can cause casualties on a city level population,
b4 being stopped by Military intervention, , may require the use of WMDS

3. Natural Disaster Level Threat ; Can cause Casualties/Damage equivalent to a natural disaster, b4 being stopped by Military Intervention, , may require the use of WMDS

4. Genocide level threat (Alpha) ; Capable of causing human level extinction, but are likely to be terminated by military intervention before undertaking offensive , may require the use of WMDS

5.Genocide level threat (Omega) ; Capable of causing Human extinction level disaster, and are unlikely to be stopped by military Intervention, even with the use of WMDS

6.Planetary Level Threat (Alpha); Capable of wiping out all life on the planet, but would not survive the process and would therefore be undertaking suicide.

7. Planetary Level Threat (Omega) ; Capable of wiping out all life on the planet, would not be stopped by military intervention, and has the power to survive the process

8. Type 1 Energy Wielder; Body/Person can manipulate energies on par with a Type 1 Civilisation (I.e. the entire energy out-put of a planet)

9. Type 2 Energy Wielder ; Body / Person can manipulate energies on par with a Type 2 Civilisation (I.e. the entire energy out-put of a star )

10. Type 3 Energy Wielder ; Body / Person can manipulate energies on par with a Type 3 Civilisation (I.e. the energy out-put of the Galactic nucleus)

I'm giving a preliminary response now, but with more thought, I do want to give a more detailed response in the future.

My first impressions are...

1. Prior, I've tended to group "overall power" into three broad categories:
Low Level. This would include Batman, Daredevil, Cap America, the highest in this category being Spider-Man or Wolverine.
Mid Level. This would include the likes of Iron Man, Namor, Thing (I'm not aware of too many DC characters in this category).
High Level. Superman, Thor, Silver Surfer, eg.

2. Regarding my overly simplistic approach, I'm wondering if maybe 10 Yahman levels is too much. Again, this is my first impression, thrown out for discussion/critique.

3. Time factor, specifically for Yahman levels 4-7. Cause extinction with one blast or over an extended period of time (hours? weeks?)

(Yahman: always dependable for bringing up some cool, thought-provoking stuff. )

Originally posted by Mindship
I'm giving a preliminary response now, but with more thought, I do want to give a more detailed response in the future.

My first impressions are...

1. Prior, I've tended to group "overall power" into three broad categories:
Low Level. This would include Batman, Daredevil, Cap America, the highest in this category being Spider-Man or Wolverine.
Mid Level. This would include the likes of Iron Man, Namor, Thing (I'm not aware of too many DC characters in this category).
High Level. Superman, Thor, Silver Surfer, eg.

2. Regarding my overly simplistic approach, I'm wondering if maybe 10 Yahman levels is too much. Again, this is my first impression, thrown out for discussion/critique.

3. Time factor, specifically for Yahman levels 4-7. Cause extinction with one blast or over an extended period of time (hours? weeks?)

(Yahman: always dependable for bringing up some cool, thought-provoking stuff. )

Beings such as Daredevil, spider man and batman wouldn't even make category 1. Beings such as the Thing and Namor only make levels 2 and maybe three, respectively as Thing as both are unlikely to survive a tactical nuclear strike, and therefore limited to the amount of Damage they can incur. Time factor isn't important as characters are forced to use single power usage, b4 being stopped by the military. I.e. they would be Nuked after causing a natural disaster or destroying a city.

Superman, Surfer and Thor would be considered as level 8 characters, where as characters such as Odin and Sutur would be considered as level 9.

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Beings such as Daredevil, spider man and batman wouldn't even make category 1. Beings such as the Thing and Namor only make levels 2 and maybe three, respectively as Thing as both are unlikely to survive a tactical nuclear strike, and therefore limited to the amount of Damage they can incur. Time factor isn't important as characters are forced to use single power usage, b4 being stopped by the military. I.e. they would be Nuked after causing a natural disaster or destroying a city.

Superman, Surfer and Thor would be considered as level 8 characters, where as characters such as Odin and Sutur would be considered as level 9.

I agree with what you are saying, and this is what makes this system kinda dumb. too many people are below 1, and not enough between 2 ad 8.

Storm, Weather Wizard or Typhoon are all capable of being three.

Originally posted by Draco69
Storm, Weather Wizard or Typhoon are all capable of being three.

Agreed and someone like Iceman is potentially a level 5, as is the Human Torch. The juggernaught would be a level 5 where as someone like Magneto would be a level 7.

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Beings such as Daredevil, spider man and batman wouldn't even make category 1. Beings such as the Thing and Namor only make levels 2 and maybe three, respectively as Thing as both are unlikely to survive a tactical nuclear strike, and therefore limited to the amount of Damage they can incur. Time factor isn't important as characters are forced to use single power usage, b4 being stopped by the military. I.e. they would be Nuked after causing a natural disaster or destroying a city.


What if you have a character who, say, could destroy an entire city with multiple blasts in far less than an hour but would be too fast to be hit by a nuke or even heavy conventional barrage? For that matter, she (I'm thinking of a character of my own design) could potentially do nation-wide damage before she got hit by a lucky shot.

My question is for teasing out what might be conflicting variables.

Originally posted by Mindship
What if you have a character who, say, could destroy an entire city with multiple blasts in less than an hour but would be too fast to be hit by a nuke or even heavy conventional barrage? For that matter, she (I'm thinking of a character of my own design) could potentially do nation-wide damage before she got hit by a lucky shot.

My question is for teasing out what might be conflicting variables.

Then that character is a level 3. I.e. the Flash would definitely be a 5. See the time factor is unimportant, all that matters is whether the character is capable of doing it. Its a system that finally adopts the useage of the Speed blitz. On the other hand a character such as Juggernaught would also be a level 5 although being comparably slow. It works out quite well, as most agree that a fight between Juggernaught and Flash would end in a draw.

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Then that character is a level 3. I.e. the Flash would definitely be a 5. See the time factor is unimportant, all that matters is whether the character is capable of doing it. Its a system that finally adopts the useage of the Speed blitz. On the other hand a character such as Juggernaught would also be a level 5 although being comparably slow. It works out quite well, as most agree that a fight between Juggernaught and Flash would end in a draw.

I disagree. An all-out Flash is around 7 or 8. He could kill everyone on Earth in a space of a few seconds. He could also just absorb the kinetic energy of the planet (he already did) and shunt the absorbed kinetic energy of the planet towards the Sun (he already did...but AWAY from the Sun) He can certainly survive the process by vibrating to another dimension.

Namor is capable of being three. He's caused island sized tsunamis and made earthquakes the size of an island too...

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Namor is capable of being three. He's caused island sized tsunamis and made earthquakes the size of an island too...

That brings up an interesting point: I was previously interpreting the ability to do damage by what a character could do of his own accord, as in say, firing a bolt of energy. Namor can't fire any energy at all, yet he can cause immense damage "indirectly," so to speak. Like Superman: Supes doesn't really possess any WMD potential per se (I'm not sure if heat vision would qualify, since it is not protrayed consistently), but he could lift a mountain and drop it, which would cause vast levels of damage.

I'm guessing Professor X with psionic abilities would be at level 7 also.

"Charles Xavier is a telepath of the highest order, capable of the standard telepathic abilities. He is able to read thoughts, communicate with others psionically on a global (and sometimes galactic) level. Professor Xavier can erase, create, and manipulate thoughts and memories, control the actions of others, mentally induce pain, paralysis, unconsciousness, and even death in other people."

And yes, it is from wikipedia.

Level 2
Bishop
Sunspot
Northstar (current)
Colossus

Level 3
Havok
Cyclops

Level 2
Bill Foster
Ultimate Hawkeye with a quiver of non-localized nukes.

Originally posted by Mindship
That brings up an interesting point: I was previously interpreting the ability to do damage by what a character could do of his own accord, as in say, firing a bolt of energy. Namor can't fire any energy at all, yet he can cause immense damage "indirectly," so to speak. Like Superman: Supes doesn't really possess any WMD potential per se (I'm not sure if heat vision would qualify, since it is not protrayed consistently), but he could lift a mountain and drop it, which would cause vast levels of damage.

Mate he does have WMD capabilities, he threatened a bunch of elemental giants that he would Vapourize the Ozone, Burn away the oceans, and break every piece of matter doewn to its molecular level. That or he could just throw the moon at the planet.

Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
...he could just throw the moon at the planet.

Works for me.

Originally posted by Mindship
Works for me.

Thers' a scan suggesting he may also be able to vapourize the entire planet with his heat vision, if he wanted to.

I think any numerical or sort of comparitive statistical analysis of heroes and their power is going to fall short

while everything ive seen is really good and helps progress from the marvel ratings, there is no way that hard numbers can ever be done, just because there are too many variables

that being said, with regards to the system above, its going to be difficult to use for some reasons, the primary being the one mindship described: Basically that there will be heroes who clearly fall into more than one group just because their powers allow them to find loop holes in the classifications

any speedster, for instance, SHOULD BE able to avoid even the greatest powers of the modern military. That doesnt mean that they are a genocidal level threat, just that the classification calls for such a specific qualification (being stopped by the military) that it is possible to work around it

Originally posted by inamilist
I

any speedster, for instance, SHOULD BE able to avoid even the greatest powers of the modern military. That doesnt mean that they are a genocidal level threat, just that the classification calls for such a specific qualification (being stopped by the military) that it is possible to work around it

wrong ... a Speedster with below transluniar capabilities, would eventually be killed by a chemical/biological weapon.

Originally posted by inamilist
Basically that there will be heroes who clearly fall into more than one group just because their powers allow them to find loop holes in the classifications

But inamilist is stating perhaps a bit more clearly what I've been trying to get at, or at least wonder about:
Is the capacity to destroy ("C2D" always directly proportional to the capacity to resist destruction ("C2RD"?

Again, I'll use my character ("Ana" as an example. Given sufficient time, she could wreck havoc all over the world (multiple, artillery-level explosions; EMPs), yet she would be extremely difficult to take out militarily (electrical warning sense + extreme speed), even with nukes.

Now, by saying time is irrelevant, or that the character has to be able to destroy in one blast does simplify things, and in that vein (as I currently cannot think of an exception) C2D = C2RD. But this leaves out national/global threats of the Ana type.

Actually, as I'm working this out while typing, the Yahman Power Ranking system works best when speed is Not a factor, eg, with characters like Hulk or Godzilla. They can do major, immediate destruction but lack the capacity to avoid immediate retaliation. They fit the system as is perfectly (as far as I can tell at the moment). But introduce speed -- or for that matter, range (ability to strike beyond our retaliation range) -- and things change.

I probably should be polishing up all these thoughts, but I'm tired.

As an afterthought, consider how dangerous Batman can be.

In Superman/Batman: Supergirl, he recoded and activated all 500 of Darkseid's hellspore weapons, implying all of Apokolips would be reduced to cinder if he let them go off. Even Superman couldn't do that, that it would take far less than a nuke to take Batman out.

Originally posted by Mindship
As an afterthought, consider how dangerous Batman can be.

In Superman/Batman: Supergirl, he recoded and activated all 500 of Darkseid's hellspore weapons, implying all of Apokolips would be reduced to cinder if he let them go off. Even Superman couldn't do that, that it would take far less than a nuke to take Batman out.

Good point, except the threat heirachy is based on a realistic earth, i.e not all earths nuclear weapons are situated in a big wherehouse that is easilly broken into.

This got me rethinking Marvel's speed scale.
SPEED
1 = Below normal
2 = Normal
3 = Superhuman: peak range - 700mph
4 = Speed of sound: Mach-1
5 = Supersonic: Mach-2 through Orbital Velocity
6 = Speed of light: 186,000 miles per second
7 = Warp speed: transcending light speed

Big gap between 5 and 6. Level 6, and 4, aren't even a range.
I propose...
Normal: 10-20 mph
Peak: 20-30 mph
Superhuman: 30mph to near Mach 1
Supersonic: Mach 1+
Hectosonic: Mach 100+
Kilosonic: Mach 1000+
Warp: lightspeed or faster

when the 2 of you guys get together, my head spins.

Anybody remember the old handbooks from the 1990's? Those had alot less gaps. The strength levels were Superhuman class 10(2 tons to 10 tons), Superhuman class 25(10 tons to 25 tons), Superhuman class 50(25-50 tons), Superhuman class 75(50-75 tons), Superhuman class 90(75-90 tons), Superhuman class 100(90-100 tons) and Incalcuable(over 100 tons).

When Marvel started this 1-7 numbering scale they watered down the classes and put some together.

Level #4: Class 10 and 25 ton.
Level #5: Class 50 and 75 ton.
Level #6: Class 90 and 100 ton.
Level #7: Incalcuable over 100 tons.