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This has been touched upon in other threads, but I don't know whether there's actually a thread with this as the primary topic.

Free will is the ability to make choices under your own discretion.
Many major (particularly monotheistic) religions are denoted by gods whom have omniscience, omnipotence and infallibility.
Under the premise of such a god, time is preordained, meaning all choices are preordained.
Such belief systems therefore logically preclude free will.

Are you religious? Do you believe in free will? How do you incorporate this free will paradox into your belief system?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
This has been touched upon in other threads, but I don't know whether there's actually a thread with this as the primary topic.

Free will is the ability to make choices under your own discretion.
Many major (particularly monotheistic) religions are denoted by gods whom have omniscience, omnipotence and infallibility.
Under the premise of such a god, time is preordained, meaning all choices are preordained.
Such belief systems therefore logically preclude free will.

Are you religious? Do you believe in free will? How do you incorporate this free will paradox into your belief system?
This is what I consider the hardest question to answer. It is very complex. I personally believe that God gives us the freedom to do as we choose. Jesus died so that we could be reconciled when we sin in our free will. However, I believe that God knows what decisions we will make before we make them, therefore, he knows our destination before we are born. Yet, we are still born because the free will of at least one of our parents to have sex. It is very hard to explain exactly what my beliefs on the matter are, but that was the best I could do before I got bored. I don't even think I really answered the question...

Originally posted by Nellinator
This is what I consider the hardest question to answer. It is very complex. I personally believe that God gives us the freedom to do as we choose. Jesus died so that we could be reconciled when we sin in our free will. However, I believe that God knows what decisions we will make before we make them, therefore, he knows our destination before we are born. Yet, we are still born because the free will of at least one of our parents to have sex. It is very hard to explain exactly what my beliefs on the matter are, but that was the best I could do before I got bored. I don't even think I really answered the question...

Ah, but should we have sin at all? Are we not inflicted by the inability not to sin due to the actions of Adam and Eve? Our species essentially carries the brand of sin due to their actions?

I have said it before - that doesn't sound much like free will if we are automatically judged sinful unless we follow Jesus who did something for us once again regardless of whether we wanted to or not? Really it seems to be rail roading - you have free will, sure, but because of Adam and Eve this is irrelevant as nothing you do will save you unless you accept Jesus, who sacrificed himself for you, regardless of your thoughts on the subject.

Good question!We all have free well so our sins is our choice but we know better then to sin or we will go to hell.JM

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
This has been touched upon in other threads, but I don't know whether there's actually a thread with this as the primary topic.

Free will is the ability to make choices under your own discretion.
Many major (particularly monotheistic) religions are denoted by gods whom have omniscience, omnipotence and infallibility.
Under the premise of such a god, time is preordained, meaning all choices are preordained.
Such belief systems therefore logically preclude free will.

Are you religious? Do you believe in free will? How do you incorporate this free will paradox into your belief system?

I am not religious in a sense that I follow Abrahamic religion.

I do have a belief system however which in fact consists of free will entirely. I am heavily into Buddhism, but since my roots and traditions are Pagan, I sort of incorporate that into my belief as well.

I like to believe that there are parallel universes, with all the possible outcomes of our choices. This idea overwhelms me, and I quite like it.

Choice is somewhat of an illusion in my opinion, if looked at objectively.

We want to believe we have something called "free will". But let's say we choose vanilla ice cream over chocolate. Everything involved in that decision, from the larger events down to the microscopic exchanges of electrical energy in our brain patterns, has a cause that directly preceded it that determined what it would be. The choice could only be "vanilla" because the state of the universe preceding the choice would allow for no other logical conclusion. We perceive a choice, but in fact the choice has already been determined....we only have to act it out.

I read a Buddhist describe the concept once (the following is paraphrased heavily, though I think I retain the central meaning) who wrote incredulously of the idea that anything can exist outside the effects of cause and effect. Such a thing could not exist, he explains, and even the idea of free will is not independent of causes that precede it.

The idea of free will, in many religions, is centered around ideas of God, justice, a soul, etc. and will not allow for the possibility that we are completely determined in our actions.

It's unfortunate, because many would revolt against a notion of determinism without stopping to realize that even in such a universe, a pre-destined life does nothing to strip life of its joy, wonder, and inherent potential for happiness.

So yeah, I think free will is rather false. We're all part of a unified (and utterly pre-determined) system that works harmoniously together to create itself. The universe couldn't be any other way than it is, but there is a beauty and power knowing that we are as intrinsic to the state of the universe as it is to our own being. Truly, we are one.

...that's my view at least.

Some very nicely thought out responses. Well 4/5 ain't bad.Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I like to believe that there are parallel universes, with all the possible outcomes of our choices. This idea overwhelms me, and I quite like it. Originally posted by DigiMark007
It's unfortunate, because many would revolt against a notion of determinism without stopping to realize that even in such a universe, a pre-destined life does nothing to strip life of its joy, wonder, and inherent potential for happiness.

So yeah, I think free will is rather false. We're all part of a unified (and utterly pre-determined) system that works harmoniously together to create itself. The universe couldn't be any other way than it is, but there is a beauty and power knowing that we are as intrinsic to the state of the universe as it is to our own being. Truly, we are one.

...that's my view at least.

Indeed, the topic is also a question of how one perceives the universe; whether there is one universe with one predestined set timeline, in which we play as integral a role as any other part while not a decisive role; or whether there are an infinite number of universes divergent upon each event, each "decision" no matter how minute down to the one random direction in which an atom may move as opposed to another. And as importantly whether we as humans can be happy with a dichotomously significant yet insignificant role, whether it be either.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Are you religious? Do you believe in free will? How do you incorporate this free will paradox into your belief system?

A) Yeah, I'm religous but as much as I should be.

B) Yes

C) I do what I feel like doing.

BRILLIANT!

Orale!

You have all heard the Age Old Argument




If God knows the future, then how could we truly have Free Will ?



To have Free Will means we have a choice. It means we always have a choice. To have a choice means we can live any one out of infinite possibilities....the result is ours to decide.


Many say that God knows all, including the future, including our Fates. Nastrodomous, Book of Revelations makes it clear that God sees into the future of this world, and the future of Humanity.


But if God can see the future, then how could we possibly have any choice ? If God knows what choice we are going to make, then how do we truly have a choice ?


If God always knows what we are going to do, then that means we will ONLY do what God sees us doing....there is no way we will do something else, there is NO WAY we will make any other choice, only the action that God sees us doing in his sight.

So that means all other possibilities are gone, because those other results will NEVER OCCUR...ONLY the ONE God SEES us doing...

That's not a choice then....





This argument has gone on forever and ever.....


However, what if there are Alternate Realities ?


If Alternate Realities exist within the concept and beleif in God, then this could very well verify that:


1) We have Free Will

AND

2) That God can see our future



If there are Alternate Realities, then there are numerous choices being made and existing....therefore, we DO make choices, and God will still have the power to see what those choices are.....

It may sound confusing, but this would allow God to see into a spectrum of realities (futures) that exist, and know which roads we (and our alternate selves) are taking.



The only problem with this hypothesis is that it means we exist in fragments, and that only peices of us will enter Heaven or Hell, or even both at the same time.

I think that God can see many alternative realities, however, he knows which is true.

Originally posted by Nellinator
I think that God can see many alternative realities, however, he knows which is true.


That does not make any sense.



If Alternate Realities exist, then they are ALL "true"

Oops, I meant to say 'all alternative possibilites'. Sorry 'bout that.

The best answer is: Christian mythology was made up by humans who do not understand the true nature of reality.

No it is not.

Originally posted by Nellinator
No it is not.

In the face of no evidence, the simpler answer is more likely the correct answer.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The best answer is: Christian mythology was made up by humans who do not understand the true nature of reality.


As much as I agree with you Shaky, that's not the discussion here. This discussion is under the assumption that there is a God, and if so, is Alternate Realities the best possible answer to explain how God could see the future and how we could still have true choices.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
As much as I agree with you Shaky, that's not the discussion here. This discussion is under the assumption that there is a God, and if so, is Alternate Realities the best possible answer to explain how God could see the future and how we could still have true choices.

I cannot abide under this oppression.




















Whatever you say.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I cannot abide under this oppression.

Whatever you say.


Is it really that hard to venture into someone else's mythology ?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Is it really that hard to venture into someone else's mythology ?

Edit

OK what you are talking about is a duality. We are not supposed to understand it.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Edit

OK what you are talking about is a duality.



How so ?




Originally posted by Shakyamunison
We are not supposed to understand it.



Why not ?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
In the face of no evidence, the simpler answer is more likely the correct answer.

Then I guess..your alluding to him giving a correct answer..my friend..

^ Staying with in Christian mythology:

To ponder such questions is to leave one open to temptation from the devil. God works in mysterious ways, and we should only focus on our salvation. To try and answer the question of how God does things, will not get us into heaven, and should not be pursued. As a matter of fact, we should not be on this computer or the Internet. We should keep ourselves separate from the world in all ways. Repent you sinner for the time of the coming of the lord is near at hand.

*How was that?*

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
^ Staying with in Christian mythology:

To ponder such questions is to leave one open to temptation from the devil. God works in mysterious ways, and we should only focus on our salvation. To try and answer the question of how God does things, will not get us into heaven, and should not be pursued. As a matter of fact, we should not be on this computer or the Internet. We should keep ourselves separate from the world in all ways. Repent you sinner for the time of the coming of the lord is near at hand.

*How was that?*



If you do not like the question being posed, then why participate in this thread ?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
If you do not like the question being posed, then why participate in this thread ?

Hey! I thought my post was good, in a smart ass way.

I guess I'm getting you back for all the orgasm stuff.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Hey! I thought my post was good, in a smart ass way.

I guess I'm getting you back for all the orgasm stuff.


BUT THE ORGASM WAS SO MUCH TASTIER droolio

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
BUT THE ORGASM WAS SO MUCH TASTIER droolio

To each his own. I'm sorry if I upset you last night, I was working on my recording project (writing drum parts), so I was in a mood.

back on topic: I already posted something like this on the Philosophy forum. I am not a very religious and I don't really believe in a 'almighty', but just because I don't believe it doesn't mean it doesn't exist and that it doesn't control our lives.

Originally posted by Darth Oblivion
back on topic: I already posted something like this on the Philosophy forum. I am not a very religious and I don't really believe in a 'almighty', but just because I don't believe it doesn't mean it doesn't exist and that it doesn't control our lives.

hooray someone in my camp

How is having free will any different from not having free will and not knowing it?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
To each his own. I'm sorry if I upset you last night, I was working on my recording project (writing drum parts), so I was in a mood.


So you changed one world for another ?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
So you changed one world for another ?

Sorry that one humped over my head.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Sorry that one humped over my head.

please use spell check your errors are comical but unneeded

he's refering to the 10 worlds concept you introduced us to

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
please use spell check your errors are comical but unneeded

he's refering to the 10 worlds concept you introduced us to

I use spell check all the time. My errors are not intentional, I am extremely dyslexic and I have a hard time seeing misspelled words.




Worlds! Yes, I read words.

Why would you intentionally switch from one world of peace to a world of frustration over a couple of beers ?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Why would you intentionally switch from one world of peace to a world of frustration over a couple of beers ?

Beers?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
To each his own. I'm sorry if I upset you last night, I was working on my recording project (writing drum parts), so I was in a mood.


Oh, my bad

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Oh, my bad

Now I'm curious, was you trying to ask me why would I choose to go from a good world to a bad world?

I make mistakes and go to the wrong place sometimes. I have a tendency to go to hell over most anything. I always tell people that the path to hell is well warn and I have a condo there.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Now I'm curious, what trying to ask me why would I choose to go from a good world to a bad world?

I make mistakes and go to the wrong place sometimes. I have a tendency to go to hell over most anything. I always tell people that the path to hell is a well warn and I have a condo there.



At least that answer was honest.


I was just saying, if you have the power to choose what world to go into, why would you intentionally travel to Hell ?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
At least that answer was honest.


I was just saying, if you have the power to choose what world to go into, why would you intentionally travel to Hell ?

Good point, I have spent a life time there. However, these days I have a lot more control and can go where I want to most of the time. What I don't do is blame someone else when I find myself in hell of anger, it is all my fault.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Are you religious?

Not as much as I'd like.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Do you believe in free will?

Yes.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
How do you incorporate this free will paradox into your belief system?

I do whatever the hell I want.

Sounds logical.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
...I always tell people that the path to hell is well warn and I have a condo there.

lol. Is your condo on the west side of hell or on the east side. If it's on the west side then YOU are the noisey neighbor I threw rocks at the other day.

Originally posted by Darth Oblivion
lol. Is your condo on the west side of hell or on the east side. If it's on the west side then YOU are the noisey neighbor I threw rocks at the other day.

Stop throwing rocks!

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Stop throwing rocks!


I'm the one who left all the white spots...sorry....

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I'm the one who left all the white spots...sorry....

And you should be...

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
And you should be...


Just use some urine gone and all the stains and DNA will be cleaned off

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Just use some urine gone and all the stains and DNA will be cleaned off

You have white urine? (mine is clear -> yellow)

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
This has been touched upon in other threads, but I don't know whether there's actually a thread with this as the primary topic.

Free will is the ability to make choices under your own discretion.
Many major (particularly monotheistic) religions are denoted by gods whom have omniscience, omnipotence and infallibility.
Under the premise of such a god, time is preordained, meaning all choices are preordained.
Such belief systems therefore logically preclude free will.

Are you religious? Do you believe in free will? How do you incorporate this free will paradox into your belief system? I would like to believe that anything we as humans choose to do in life is a choice we personally make based on free will. I would also like to believe that it is a choice we can choose to change at any given point.

But under a higher being that knows the outcome of all that we shall ever do, then that would mean that our lives only have one foreseeable outcome, and hence we would not have true free will if our lives had already been planned out by something greater then ourselves.

It's a paradoxical subject in my opinion, it's just another one of those topics that come down to what we individually believe to be true.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
You have white urine? (mine is clear -> yellow)


Urine Gone gets rid of urine stains, blood stains, semen stains, grass stains, saliva stains, and cream stains

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Urine Gone gets rid of urine stains, blood stains, semen stains, grass stains, saliva stains, and cream stains

I see.

But does it get to choose what stains it removes?

Please move along from the personal hygiene issues.

Originally posted by Storm
Please move along from the personal hygiene issues.

lol

Does God being omniscient impair your free will?

I don't see how it does. Free will is the act of choosing your own destiny. God knowing your decision shouldn't mean you don't have free will.

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
Does God being omniscient impair your free will?

I don't see how it does. Free will is the act of choosing your own destiny. God knowing your decision shouldn't mean you don't have free will.

God is not omniscient.

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
Does God being omniscient impair your free will?

I don't see how it does. Free will is the act of choosing your own destiny. God knowing your decision shouldn't mean you don't have free will.


If God (or anyone) can see the future, then that means the future is already pre-determined, with one fixed outcome.

If there is only one fixed outcome, then there are not other options or choices.


If there are no other options or choices, then there is no true "free will."

How can you know this? How can you know there are not several possible futures?

Just because God knows what you will do doesn't mean you can only do one thing.

The Bible God is confusing with free will. But Free Will is a part of who we all are.

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
How can you know this? How can you know there are not several possible futures?

Just because God knows what you will do doesn't mean you can only do one thing.

If you read a book, then read it again, is it different the second time? Do the characters in the book have free will? If god knows the future, then we are like the characters in a book. From god's point of view, there is no free will, but sense we do not know the future, we have the illusion of free will. The only way to fix this paradox is to say the God is not omniscient.

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
How can you know this? How can you know there are not several possible futures?

Just because God knows what you will do doesn't mean you can only do one thing. Doesn't make a difference if there are 5 million other choices, if God knows the future he already knows the one you will choose.

strange thing and ways this god claiming to give man free will still making some rules starting with thou shall not

An author of a book writes things to begin and end in a way. The characters have no choice in the matter. We as humans can choose whether we go to Church or don't.

Unless you are saying God is controlling us to do either?



I still don't see how this works. God knowing what you'll do doesn't MAKE you do it.

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
An author of a book writes things to begin and end in a way. The characters have no choice in the matter. We as humans can choose whether we go to Church or don't.

Unless you are saying God is controlling us to do either?

I'm saying that the bible is wrong when it comes to the true nature of God.

sure if what you was about to do ruined all this god made, turned things against him the jealous god of the bible would interfere

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
An author of a book writes things to begin and end in a way. The characters have no choice in the matter. We as humans can choose whether we go to Church or don't.

Unless you are saying God is controlling us to do either?



I still don't see how this works. God knowing what you'll do doesn't MAKE you do it.




If God knows the future, then there could be no possible outcomes. If God knows what is going to happen, then only that will happen. How can any other outcome possibly happen, if God knows which outcome will exist ?


If God knows the future, then there is ONLY ONE FUTURE, and therefore, we don't have other options. The future will only occur one way, and therefore, we don't truly have say in how our lives go.

Otherwise, if God is wrong about the future, then he is not omniscient.


Do you understand ?

The Bible as far I know states that God also made the universe... with that he would have to make the rules of the universe, this includes the creation of "free will" but to invent something called "choice" he would have to make the choices to choose from... and by each of our personalities we will choose one choice over the other based on what we think will be the more positive outcome for us... based on this God would also have to create our personalities and the percentages attached to those personalities... although you will "choose" things you wouldn't normally choose you will generally select the most self satisfying choice... sometimes you learn that it is not the most self satisfying selection... but everyone cannot "choose" the right thing or we would never learn hardship.

Now if God made the choices and the percentile chance for us to choose one over the other than it is logical to say he does not exist... because he is essentially making us choose over Himself or the Devil... via sinfulness and purity, so he has created the "choice" himself that many of us will end up going to the place called Hell, and only a few will go to Heaven because how many people will think of God on their death bed? many, but how many are able to atone for all of their sins there? few, also He gave us the choice not to believe in him... for a being so desperate to love us and for us to love him he did a great job in making it impossible for many, He made our personalities and thus doomed us to Hell or Heaven.

The other logical explanation... one fixed future, but then He is more cruel for ultimately dooming many of us to Hell or Heaven, because of this the most logical path is that he does not exist... or that we are simply pawns in a game of chess thats being played against another person following exact directions to the checkmate... meaningless

shin, your argument would hold true if god was a SILENT SPECTATER to the universe and merely knew everything that came to pass. in which case man STILL wudnt have free will but shud put responsibility on the being that CREATED the universe for everything that happens.

but god ISNT a silent spectater{and this is disreguarding any miraculous upsets he wud have made in the universe AFTER its creation} but he CREATED the universe. if i create sumthing with FULL KNOWLEDGE of what it implies and is going to do in the future without possibility of fail, then i am COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY responsible for it and whatever it does . this is the same as god, he knew everything and created the world knowing exactly how his creating sumthing wud wrk out. but he still gave us a SENSE OF FREE WILL, which is about the cruelest thing any1 can do, seeing as we can not even TRY and change what he knows will come to pass, as our entire existance will work towards that chain of events, and yet we FALSELY keep believing that we are responsible for it and he{the real resonsible one for the events} will punish and judge us for them.

that isnt a very nice god is it.

Sounds fair to me.

You screw up, God knows it.

You do good, God knows it.

It's still you. God doesn't make you a serial killer or a Saint. You are making yourself those things.

And upon your death, God judges you accordingly by YOUR actions that YOU decided.

Show me how God is manipulating your life or free will. Show me how he is imparing your decisions.

in answer to your question:

by the very fact of putting us together and putting us in situations in which we CAN NOT, act anyway other than one, he controls us. his responsibility not our as the world is his creation and he made it knowing full well what would happen later and we cant change it. hence there is no choice and no free will and we are not responsible.

Prove to me there is only one possible outcome to anyone's life.

I can CHOOSE whether I am with God or against God. God doesn't make me for or against Him. I choose it.

So, it's free will.

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
Prove to me there is only one possible outcome to anyone's life.

I can CHOOSE whether I am with God or against God. God doesn't make me for or against Him. I choose it.

So, it's free will.


wrong. if god KNOWS 100%{omniscience} what is going to happen then i CANT choose. as by the very definition i would have to have the ABILITY to pick whichever fate i liked to have free will, but there is no such ability if there is only one possible fate{and that is what god's omniscience implies}.

as for god being responsible or not, i have thought of two situation.{disreguarding the argument of omniscient being creating a universe and hence being responsible for its unhampered functioning beginning to end}

in the first one, god simply KNOWS a "phenomenon" called the "futue" with perfect accuracy. in this one he merely KNOWS the future but didnt create it. still the future would have to EXIST as a consistant unchaging construct for him to know about it with "certainty". and hence man still has no free will albeit it is blamed on the fact that a FUTURE phenomenon exists which is outside god's bounds and/or his creation/will{which wud make him responsible}.

in the other one, god has MADE a future phenomenon and like all things it is one of his creation under him. he knows it 100% and man still has no free will. and god is responsible for it.

either way with omniscience, we dont have free will and god is almost definately responsible for the world.

Omniscience has nothing to do with only one possible future. To knoW all means you would know exactly what would happen if a person chose this or that. God would know what would happen to me if I decided right now to go out and become a serial killer. He would also know what would happen to me if I continue to sit hear and believe in Him and practice non-violence.

I don't see how God knowing everything means there is only one outcome to everything.



Again, not seeing it. Free will - YOU decide what YOU do. THat's it That's free will. How does God knowing what YOU decide limit your free will? it's YOU making the decision. All you.

This is going around in a very repitive circle.

uve got it ALLLLLLLLL wrong. omniscience does not mean knowing possible implication for POSSIBLE choices. it means knowing about WHICH youd choose to begin with!!!!!!!!!!

and THEN knowing all implications of that choice. its knowledge of what WILL happen, not what WOULD happen if so n so conditions were met. so god knows exactly which choices youd make AND their implication. and THAT DESTROYES FREE WILL.

e.g. he knows IF you will become a serial killer or not. meaning he KNOWS WHAT YOU WILL POSITIVELY CHOOSE. implications of choices are a secondary.

omniscience infact makes it impossible for any future to exist other than the one you KNOW 100%, WILL COME TO PASS. in other words you know the future. the one and only future. please read up on it cause this is getting circular.

again ur wrong, if god KNOWS the choices we have made BEFORE we have made them then it isnt a choice but a 100% decided outcome. and it SHALL come to pass n no1 can do athing to change it.

Where do you get that definition from?

American Heritage Dictionary (ŏm-nĭsh'ənt)
adj.Having total knowledge; knowing everything.

Also my New Merriam-Webster Dictionary says:
infinite awareness, understanding and insight.

So...it seems to be you know ALL including ALL possibilities of the future.

Now back up your definition.



God would know what would happen if you chose A or B. He know ALL.

And AGAIN

God. Does. Nothing.

You. Make. The. Choice.

You.

Your will, your mind, your fate.

God simply knows what will happen if you choose that. But he also knows what will happen if you choose something else. See defintions of omniscience.



EXACTLY.

He KNOWS what I will choose but he's not making me do it. He knows I could equally decide to do a million other things. He is not influencing me. I am deciding myself what I will do. Thus, free will.



Again, prove up. Where are you getting this definition of omniscience from?

INFINITE awareness, knowledge and insight.

You are contradicting a direct definition by saying it has limits to one future only.



Alright, here's something.

Say we're playing Checkers.

I KNOW if you move your piece to a certain square, I can jump you.

But I don't tell you.

You go ahead and move your piece there and I jump you.

Did you not just make the choice yourself?

I knew what would happen but I didn't effect you. It was your decision.

I realize there are a few flaws with my analogy mainly the checkers thing is a prediction and not perfect knowledge of the future. But it is apt for what I'm trying to get across here.

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
Does God being omniscient impair your free will?

I don't see how it does. Free will is the act of choosing your own destiny. God knowing your decision shouldn't mean you don't have free will. God has rules of what not to do. That is stopping free will.

What do you mean by rules? Like what you should and should not do to get into Heaven?

That doesn't impact your free will. You can still choose to follow those rules or not to. If you don't, you butn forever.

So, it's kind a win-lose choice but it's still your choice to make.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
If God (or anyone) can see the future, then that means the future is already pre-determined, with one fixed outcome.

If there is only one fixed outcome, then there are not other options or choices.


If there are no other options or choices, then there is no true "free will."

If god knows all things that would mean the teachings of predestination. If that is so, then no matter what your heart feels, if you're not chosen, then you're not going. That contradicts free will.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
If God (or anyone) can see the future, then that means the future is already pre-determined, with one fixed outcome.

If there is only one fixed outcome, then there are not other options or choices.


If there are no other options or choices, then there is no true "free will." Even if no one can see into the future there is only one outcome that will come true. Basically what you arguing is that free will does not exist either way.


Sidenote: Free will does not appear in the Bible as far as I've seen.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Even if no one can see into the future there is only one outcome that will come true. Basically what you arguing is that free will does not exist either way.


How do you know that ?


If Free Will exists, then that means the future is not certain. The future doesn't exist yet..does it ? So how is it already fixed ?

If we have Free Will, then the future depends on us, we shape it, not the other way around.




Originally posted by Nellinator
Sidenote: Free will does not appear in the Bible as far as I've seen.


That is interesting.

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
Omniscience has nothing to do with only one possible future. To knoW all means you would know exactly what would happen if a person chose this or that. God would know what would happen to me if I decided right now to go out and become a serial killer.

That would make sociologists "Gods."

Then again, anyone with common sense would know Czarina would turn out the way she is if you switched her soul to a black body when she has a white soul .

In all seriousness though, that is a terribly flawed argument.

I don't know of the Bible mentioning free will either but that would mean we would have to make an assumption that would make no sense at all.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
How do you know that ?


If Free Will exists, then that means the future is not certain. The future doesn't exist yet..does it ? So how is it already fixed ?

If we have Free Will, then the future depends on us, we shape it, not the other way around.







That is interesting. That doesn't change if God knows. We still choose. That isn't necessarily free will, but we do have choice. I heard people call this free agency. I suggest you look up Alvin Plantinga's free will defense or read Richard Swinburne's "Is There a God?". Both have interesting ideas, not that I totally agree with them. Personally, I starting to consider determinism the best explanation of fate, predestination and free will.

I'm not sure when the concept came into theology. I think the premises of the whole free will argument need to be reconstructed.

Originally posted by chithappens
That would make sociologists "Gods."

Then again, anyone with common sense would know Czarina would turn out the way she is if you switched her soul to a black body when she has a white soul .

In all seraiousness though, that is a terribly flawed argument.

Not really. You all are blatantly ignoring the definition of omniscience.

Omniscience is to know ALL. With INFINITE insight.

If there is only ONE future and God can only know ONE thing you will choose, he does not know ALL and he does not have INFINITE awareness.

Omniscience should mean you know the exact possible outcome of every variable and decision. Not that you see only one inevitable future for all things.

And sociologists don't know jack. They predict and theorize. They can't know everything that will happen to everyone for absolute certainty.

If I believed the bible to be absolute truth, and were able to get past the many obvious contradictions, I would still find it to be teaching that man does not have free will. In fact the words "free will" aren't in the bible anywhere. There's plenty in there about "God's will", though. The confusing part is that it teaches that it's God's will for everyone to be saved...in many places even says that all were saved by Jesus in opposition to all being "unsaved" by Adam...yet Christianity teaches that most people won't be saved (meaning will burn in eternal damnation forever). All I really know is that my daily experience sure feels like free will. Whether it's an illusion or not, I don't know. If there's any truth to the bible at all, I tend to lean toward there being a God that has/had an over-all plan, and that either this God just put things in motion and stepped back to let the experiment unfold, or this God is still the one in control, and we just have a little free will within the confines of natural law, etc., or we really don't have the free will that we think we have, but we get to think we have it. It's getting really late where I am, so I'm sorry if this is starting to make no sense at all. LOL! But for those of you who do believe in the bible, do me a favor and check out martin zender's website: http://martinzender.com/ I've gotten away from most of this stuff nowadays, but there was a time awhile back when I was reading up on all of it.

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
Not really. You all are blatantly ignoring the definition of omniscience.

Omniscience is to know ALL. With INFINITE insight.

If there is only ONE future and God can only know ONE thing you will choose, he does not know ALL and he does not have INFINITE awareness.

Omniscience should mean you know the exact possible outcome of every variable and decision. Not that you see only one inevitable future for all things.

And sociologists don't know jack. They predict and theorize. They can't know everything that will happen to everyone for absolute certainty.

sigh. your contradicting the most basic logical arguments here.

omniscience is knowing ALL.agreed. so infact as u said, god "does" know what would happen in any possible future IF THAT FUTURE HAD THE POSSIBILITY OF EXISTANCE. no problem there. but what ur not getting is the fact that beyond that god also knows WHICH ONE OF THOSE POSSIBILITIES WILL COME TRUE!!!!!!!!! as in he knows which choices which people will take{and no he knows 100% which path any person wud choose. so that person can never nevr never EVER chooce the other path than what god knows before that person even had a chance to decide} and THAT takes away free will.

there is only one future. god knows that one future. on TOP of that he knows what any other future WOULD look like were it a POSSIBILITY, which it ISNT, since god knows for a fcat WHICH of the possible futures will happen without fail{otherwise u take away his omniscience}. hence no ability of man to choose or contradict the one future god knows.
n ur getting confused in words, omniscience also implies that you know which decision is taken to begin with since in itself a variable is not multiple things at once but a consistant entity which favours one future, hence god also knows the path the variable DOES take on top of knowing the paths it WOULD take given that conditions were different.

sociologists dont known because they can only theorise based on the POSSIBLE ways in which a variable can change and their theorys are based on models where the model holds true only IF the nature of variables falls into the parameters set up by the scientist. on the other hand god knows EXACTLY where each variable is and will be{not "possibly" but for a 100% certain fact}.

as far as the analogy you gave of the responsibility, your partly right. u wudnt be responsible for my throw. but that doesnt relate to god. he CREATED the situation to begin with. ill give you an example, you create a robot from nothing, you create an artifical enviornment from nothing. then you set them up in a way{program etc, taking care of every variable} as that they would end up in the self destruction of the robot. u know this because you have perfect insight and have the ability to see the outcome of every initial combination of matter and energy over a chronological period.

now you give the robot an artificial personality which will act in a way as to make the self destruction happen{again you have perfect insight so u KNOW the outcome when ur designing. and the artificial personality doesnt even exist right now to make the decision of execution of such an initial design to begin with so its all you}. n then you turn on the robot. and it continues on to self destruct as you predicted.

who is responsible for the act of self destruction, you or the robot's artificial personality?????? see the robot's personality{if it was self aware of its own existance based on if u gave it the capability} wud THINK it was responsible but it was really along for the ride{its self awareness} while unknowingly doing ur biding. when infact you made it do what it thought it did on its own. and it cud never EVER have rebelled against that fate, because your insight is perfect. and if it did you wudnt be OMNISCIENT.

and as for ur previous argument, theres a parallel here. just because you as a designer with perfect insight have the ability to see all possible outcomes for all possible DIFFERENT initial conditions, that doesnt mean the robot in question is any closer to following a different initial condition because it has already been designed with one consistant initial condition. what COULD HAVE BEEN doesnt have implication if you have perfect knowledge of what IS.

Shin_Nikkolas: What is free will?

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
What do you mean by rules? Like what you should and should not do to get into Heaven?

That doesn't impact your free will. You can still choose to follow those rules or not to. If you don't, you butn forever.

So, it's kind a win-lose choice but it's still your choice to make. It's more to do wit brainwashing. If I and a bunch of people kept telling you you can't climb a wall to the point you believe it yourself, I'd bestopping you climbing a wall. THus, stopping your free will to climb a wall.

Originally posted by Nellinator
That doesn't change if God knows. We still choose. That isn't necessarily free will, but we do have choice. I heard people call this free agency. I suggest you look up Alvin Plantinga's free will defense or read Richard Swinburne's "Is There a God?". Both have interesting ideas, not that I totally agree with them. Personally, I starting to consider determinism the best explanation of fate, predestination and free will.

I'm not sure when the concept came into theology. I think the premises of the whole free will argument need to be reconstructed.


You have proven to me now, and in the past, that you are infact, open minded and review as much information possible before making a conclusion. Good


But I still think you misunderstand what I was trying to say, and that could be my fault for not being thorough enough. So:


If ANYONE knows the future, not just God, but ANYONE, then that means the future is already determined. That means there are no other outcomes, only one, which is therefore fixed and not subject to change. Therefore, we don't truly have a choice, because there is only ONE option.


Now....If NO one knows the future, then how can the future be determined ? If the future doesn't exist yet, then how is there any fixed outcome ? There wouldn't be.

The Future being non-existant and unknown to all, means that the future can only be a result of what we do now, and therefore is not determined, and completely subject to change (Not that there is anything to change yet, but the point is the future is in our hands completely).

Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
Not really. You all are blatantly ignoring the definition of omniscience.

Omniscience is to know ALL. With INFINITE insight.

If there is only ONE future and God can only know ONE thing you will choose, he does not know ALL and he does not have INFINITE awareness.

Omniscience should mean you know the exact possible outcome of every variable and decision. Not that you see only one inevitable future for all things.



If God knows the future, then how could there be other possibilities ? I don't understand what you are trying to say.

If God knows "The Future", then that means there will only be ONE FUTURE, and ALL OTHER POSSIBLE FUTURES are NON-EXISTANT.


I think what you are trying to say is that God knows all the possibilities that will occur as a result of your choices. That's logical, but that's NOT the same thing as God knowing your future.

It's either one or the other, you can't have it both ways.

God knows your future, but that doesn't mean he made it. Well, he did. But he didn't intentionally make your future.

Originally posted by lord xyz
God knows your future, but that doesn't mean he made it. Well, he did. But he didn't intentionally make your future.


It doesn't matter.

If God knows your future, then your future is fixed, therefore you don't truly have free will, because any choice you make will script out into this future.


It's like acting our a script, literally. That's not free will. That's Fate.

And predestined planning..ie Calvinism.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
You have proven to me now, and in the past, that you are infact, open minded and review as much information possible before making a conclusion. Good


But I still think you misunderstand what I was trying to say, and that could be my fault for not being thorough enough. So:


If ANYONE knows the future, not just God, but ANYONE, then that means the future is already determined. That means there are no other outcomes, only one, which is therefore fixed and not subject to change. Therefore, we don't truly have a choice, because there is only ONE option.


Now....If NO one knows the future, then how can the future be determined ? If the future doesn't exist yet, then how is there any fixed outcome ? There wouldn't be.

The Future being non-existant and unknown to all, means that the future can only be a result of what we do now, and therefore is not determined, and completely subject to change (Not that there is anything to change yet, but the point is the future is in our hands completely). So what you are questioning is whether fate exists, more so than you are questioning free will. I believe in fact and free agency, but not free will. Free will is a fanciful concept in my mind because even if the idea could possibly exist there are situations where the circumstances only allow one choice.

Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
It doesn't matter.

If God knows your future, then your future is fixed, therefore you don't truly have free will, because any choice you make will script out into this future.


It's like acting our a script, literally. That's not free will. That's Fate. So you're argument is, if someone knows the future, it's fixed?

Originally posted by julibug
If I believed the bible to be absolute truth, and were able to get past the many obvious contradictions, I would still find it to be teaching that man does not have free will. In fact the words "free will" aren't in the bible anywhere. There's plenty in there about "God's will", though. The confusing part is that it teaches that it's God's will for everyone to be saved...in many places even says that all were saved by Jesus in opposition to all being "unsaved" by Adam...yet Christianity teaches that most people won't be saved (meaning will burn in eternal damnation forever). All I really know is that my daily experience sure feels like free will. Whether it's an illusion or not, I don't know. If there's any truth to the bible at all, I tend to lean toward there being a God that has/had an over-all plan, and that either this God just put things in motion and stepped back to let the experiment unfold, or this God is still the one in control, and we just have a little free will within the confines of natural law, etc., or we really don't have the free will that we think we have, but we get to think we have it. It's getting really late where I am, so I'm sorry if this is starting to make no sense at all. LOL! But for those of you who do believe in the bible, do me a favor and check out martin zender's website: http://martinzender.com/ I've gotten away from most of this stuff nowadays, but there was a time awhile back when I was reading up on all of it.

I realize I'm quoting myself, but I wanted to clarify that I don't believe the bible to be absolute truth, but I'm pretty sure that most christians do, so the above post was directed at anyone who is of that belief. The bible is usually what they would use to debate anything about God or free will, and outside of that it's really just philosophy and opinion - even to the bible-believing christian. Not sure if that really applies to anyone here, though, so sorry if this was pointless.

Originally posted by julibug
I realize I'm quoting myself, but I wanted to clarify that I don't believe the bible to be absolute truth, but I'm pretty sure that most christians do

That's a thought process that many Christians (such as all the ones I know personally) feel that people don't actually care to learn what Christianity is about and instead form opinions based on the people who make interesting news stories.

It's too bad that so many christians only parrot what their denomination and pastors tell them instead of studying things out for themselves.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Free will is a fanciful concept in my mind because even if the idea could possibly exist there are situations where the circumstances only allow one choice.

Mind naming one example of this?

There is either free will or not, as mentioned in the bible. What is it? Yes or No?

Please list verses for pros and cons.

Originally posted by chithappens
Mind naming one example of this? Trying to stop breathing. Eventually your body will make you breathe again. Biology overrides any other options. It gets very complicated when you think how many decisions you make every minute of your life.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
That's a thought process that many Christians (such as all the ones I know personally) feel that people don't actually care to learn what Christianity is about and instead form opinions based on the people who make interesting news stories.

I grew up in a very dogmatic christian home, and believed it all for most of my life. In the past few years, I started asking alot of questions and really thinking about it all, and basically reasoned my way out of most of it. Anyway, I definately have first hand knowledge about what christianity teaches. The problem is that I do live in the bible belt, and I know that christians outside of this area may believe somewhat differently, but I have a feeling that at the core most of the beliefs are similar - one of the main ones being that the bible is absolute truth. That was why I made the comments - if anyone here believes that, I can relate, because I used to believe it too, but now I don't.

Originally posted by debbiejo
It's too bad that so many christians only parrot what their denomination and pastors tell them instead of studying things out for themselves.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Trying to stop breathing. Eventually your body will make you breathe again. Biology overrides any other options. It gets very complicated when you think how many decisions you make every minute of your life.

Good point - but this could still mean that we have free will within the confines of natural law - "limited free will".

Originally posted by julibug
Good point - but this could still mean that we have free will within the confines of natural law - "limited free will".

Limited free will would not be free will, or would it?

Originally posted by debbiejo
There is either free will or not, as mentioned in the bible. What is it? Yes or No?

Please list verses for pros and cons.

I can do this...have done it many times...but only if anyone else wants to. I'm not that interested in rehashing all the bible stuff unless there's someone here who cares about it - basis their beliefs on it.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Limited free will would not be free will, or would it?

I don't know, but I think it's as good as we could hope for - at least while in the physical reality that we live in now.

Originally posted by julibug
I don't know, but I think it's as good as we could hope for - at least while in the physical reality that we live in now.

Perhaps the bible is fallible after all. What I mean is life is more complicated then free will or not.

Originally posted by julibug
Good point - but this could still mean that we have free will within the confines of natural law - "limited free will".

I always wonder what people mean when they use the term free will, because it's literally impossible to have.

The freedom to choose. Ok, fine. But because of the circumstances preceding any action, event, or choice, there's only going to be 1 outcome, and it's the same outcome every time.

Imagine choosing vanilla over chocolate ice cream. Then rewind the scenario to a minute before the choice....do this for 100 iterations. You'll choose vanilla every time, no exceptions, because the same forces that led to a choice of "vanilla" are exactly the same every time. The supposed "choice" is illusory. And if you had prior knowledge of the previous iterations, the system in which the choice is made has been changed, but that's not what we're talking about. We're dealing with teh same conditions.

A hard-line Christian would argue that it will be vanilla some of the time and chocolate some of the time. Why? God. But that's not really free, is it? Some random force is influencing our decision (God, in this case) and it isn't the intrinsic causal forces within us making the decision...which should be vanilla unless there is outside tampering of some sort.

Christian free will is anything but. The only way we're "free" is by making choices solely based on that which is within us, even though there will always be a determined set of occurences that could not have happened any other way.

Originally posted by DigiMark007


A hard-line Christian would argue that it will be vanilla some of the time and chocolate some of the time. Why? God. But that's not really free, is it? Some random force is influencing our decision (God, in this case) and it isn't the intrinsic causal forces within us making the decision...which should be vanilla unless there is outside tampering of some sort.

So, "God" influences our decisions...


Originally posted by DigiMark007


Christian free will is anything but. The only way we're "free" is by making choices solely based on that which is within us, even though there will always be a determined set of occurences that could not have happened any other way.

So, do you believe that God sets up these occurences to influence our choices? If so, does our choice really mean anything (in the christian concept of salvation)? This, of course, contradicts the "make a decision for christ" that is the big thing in the church. Amazingly enough, I know people who do believe this, and still hold on to the bible as infallible?!?

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I always wonder what people mean when they use the term free will, because it's literally impossible to have.

The freedom to choose. Ok, fine. But because of the circumstances preceding any action, event, or choice, there's only going to be 1 outcome, and it's the same outcome every time.

Imagine choosing vanilla over chocolate ice cream. Then rewind the scenario to a minute before the choice....do this for 100 iterations. You'll choose vanilla every time, no exceptions, because the same forces that led to a choice of "vanilla" are exactly the same every time. The supposed "choice" is illusory. And if you had prior knowledge of the previous iterations, the system in which the choice is made has been changed, but that's not what we're talking about. We're dealing with teh same conditions.

A hard-line Christian would argue that it will be vanilla some of the time and chocolate some of the time. Why? God. But that's not really free, is it? Some random force is influencing our decision (God, in this case) and it isn't the intrinsic causal forces within us making the decision...which should be vanilla unless there is outside tampering of some sort.

Christian free will is anything but. The only way we're "free" is by making choices solely based on that which is within us, even though there will always be a determined set of occurences that could not have happened any other way.

if and when that force becomes your conciounce/consiousness and personal desire outside the raw output coming from the outside world{unevaluated/unquestioned output which uve chosent to accept/deny or have a decision about}. well i suppose IF and WHEN it happens.

Originally posted by julibug
So, do you believe that God sets up these occurences to influence our choices? If so, does our choice really mean anything (in the christian concept of salvation)? This, of course, contradicts the "make a decision for christ" that is the big thing in the church. Amazingly enough, I know people who do believe this, and still hold on to the bible as infallible?!?

Everything I talk about is well outside the Christian concept of salvation, because I find their mythology laced with logical errors and moral flaws.

So no, God isn't anywhere in the equation I was talking about. If he was, there wouldn't be such a thing as free will...the only way we can actually be "free" is in a determinist system where there is only 1 possible outcome for each event or decision.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
if and when that force becomes your conciounce/consiousness and personal desire outside the raw output coming from the outside world{unevaluated/unquestioned output which uve chosent to accept/deny or have a decision about}. well i suppose IF and WHEN it happens.

I don't think I understand any of this. It sounds like a bunch of garbled nonsense. But if I can attempt to glean some information from it, it sounds to me like you're making a distinction between causal forces outside a person and inside a person. I made no such distinction...in the "system" I spoke of in which a decision is made, intrinsic and extrinsic forces are all taken together into the equation. To do anything more is to confuse determinism by seperating it into different forces like physical/emotional/etc.

Originally posted by Nellinator
So what you are questioning is whether fate exists, more so than you are questioning free will. I believe in fact and free agency, but not free will. Free will is a fanciful concept in my mind because even if the idea could possibly exist there are situations where the circumstances only allow one choice.


I think that's pretty logical.


Free Will, in my opinion, is not entirely free to begin with. We make choices based on desire and necessity. There are conditions, circumstances, and consequences which shape our decisions as well.

If Free Will, were truly Free, then we could do whatever we want without consequence and without the influence and pressure from external sources.

Also, certain decisions we make are ones we have to make. We have to eat, we have to sleep, we have to work and make money, we have to do what we can to survive.

Our will is compromised, because our choices and actions are conditional.


I don't personally beleive in Fate, because it suggests that we have no control over our own lives, but I'm sure someone can argue that you can still have control through Fate...I don't know.



***********************************************


Lord xyz- Yes. If anyone can see the future, then it is fixed. If the future wasn't fixed, then it wouldn't be "the future". It would just be one alternate possibility, out of a million others.

If someone can see THE future, then there is only ONE, and therefore it is fixed.

Originally posted by julibug
I've said the same. Because we don't have all the answers, we cannot say for a certainty that we have total free will, but feel as if we do. This of course is not speaking in Bible terms of free will.

i believe in the "multiverse". that is the theory that at every moment where a choice is made, a reality splits. one where the coice went one way another where the choice went another. the universes need not even differ much it could be as simple as decidint to take a shower or not or brush your teeth etc. i believe also there is a reality where god exists and he doesnt.

in religion free will is half and half. you are compelled in the christian religion to go to church every weekend or face the wrath of god

Originally posted by chickenlover98
in religion free will is half and half. you are compelled in the christian religion to go to church every weekend or face the wrath of god HAHAHA!!

who's kidding? my friend is ultra catholic and he's born jewish which i think is ironic as ****. and by born jewish i do mean his mother's side which makes him jewish. hell he st4ill thinks the earth is the center of the universe. its funny. it also strenthens my beliefs that god doesnt exist because his arguments dont make sense

Originally posted by chickenlover98
who's kidding? my friend is ultra catholic and he's born jewish which i think is ironic as ****. and by born jewish i do mean his mother's side which makes him jewish. hell he st4ill thinks the earth is the center of the universe. its funny. it also strenthens my beliefs that god doesnt exist because his arguments dont make sense If your friend cannot defeat arguments like Originally posted by Nellinator
HAHAHA!! then he needs to learn more about his religion.