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Who wins?

thanos has TOAA'a power. he wins

Yet he still lost didnt he?

Elaine becomes DC's god, Michael and lucifer have the ability to go beyond all creation and non existance, that and Michael+Lucifer=dc's god.

Team 1 10/10

Mr. Master should get a kick out of this thread. ermm

Originally posted by Jesse7
Yet he still lost didnt he?

Elaine becomes DC's god, Michael and lucifer have the ability to go beyond all creation and non existance, that and Michael+Lucifer=dc's god.

Team 1 10/10
HOTU = power of TOAA
TOAA= The Presence
are u following?

Originally posted by Priest
HOTU = power of TOAA
TOAA= The Presence
are u following? Elaine replaced Yahweh/God in Vertigo. She is God now.

Micheal and Lucifer are the Will and the Power of Yahweh.

Originally posted by Juntai
Elaine replaced Yahweh/God in Vertigo. She is God now.

Micheal and Lucifer are the Will and the Power of Yahweh.

I thought Vertigo's God wasn't the same as DC's?

Urizen made an arguement towards the imperfection of that Vertigo God, and someone said it wasn't the same as the Presence.

Claarify that for me Jun.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I thought Vertigo's God wasn't the same as DC's?

Urizen made an arguement towards the imperfection of that Vertigo God, and someone said it wasn't the same as the Presence.

Claarify that for me Jun. Vertigo comics is not DC Canon. Many considered such at one time, like Sandman....but the stories have moved so far and away, they've decided they are not.

Elaine replaced Vertigo's God in the final issues of Lucifer, a Vertigo title.
She melded Lucifer's creation, and Yahweh's creation and her creation, into one consistant universe. She rewrote the laws of reality, and unmade a need for Hell.

That last line alone is part of why it can't be taken as DC Canon material for the DCU. Hell exists in the DCU, Etrigan is a Demon Lord of Hell, for example.

Characters like Morpheus/Sandman, and Wesley Dodds/Sandman, and Swamp Thing, and John Constantine, and Lucifer, and Deadman, all have/had Vertigo titles, but I don't think any of their appearances count as continuity for DC... only when it's a DC comic.

Another example being that Deadman in Vertigo, and Deadman in DC, are two different guys.. Vertigo's isn't Boston Brand.

So Elaine is the Supreme being in Vertigo, while the Presence is in DC?

I'm a little confused though, I thought Elaine was related to Lucifer and Mike, why are they separating them like that?

Or do they exist in both companies simultaneously, yet apart.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Or do they exist in both companies simultaneously, yet apart. Exactly.

Elaine is not a DC character, has never appeared in a DC comic. She is not DC comics God.
Micheal and Lucifer however, have... yet, it was Lucifer's title where Hell was collapsed and Elaine replaced Yahweh... a Vertigo title.

Originally posted by Juntai
Exactly.

Understood.

Are they the exact same characters in both companies?

Is Elaine Yahweh's daughter or the Presence's?

Who created Lucifer, Mike and Elaine? Presence or Yahweh?

Is there any relationship between Yahweh and the Presence?

Elaine is indeed powerful, but even though she replaces Yahweh as ruler of Creation (the universe as it is stated, not a multiverse, btw) she is not on par with him in terms of raw ability.

Yahweh abandoned his creation long ago, and Elaine being a rather liberal mindset, unmade Hell (as Christopher Rudd had proposed)

The fact that Yahweh did create Hell, already proves him imperfection....I have argued this a million times, so please Juntai do not argue with me on this particular point...

Thanos with HOTU is too powerful...Lucifer may be the biggest factor in this, simply because he is so damn intelligent.

Lucifer may find a way to defeat Thanos, and use the almighty power that Micheal and Elaine currently wield as his means...that is if Thanos doesn't erase him from existance beforehand. Or turn him into toilet paper...which ever comes first.

Originally posted by Juntai
Elaine is not a DC character, has never appeared in a DC comic. She is not DC comics God.
Micheal and Lucifer however, have... yet, it was Lucifer's title where Hell was collapsed and Elaine replaced Yahweh... a Vertigo title.

Oh oh, this is beginning to look like a continuity mess.

Am I right? or are they handling things over there?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
.that is if Thanos doesn't erase him from existance beforehand. Or turn him into toilet paper...which ever comes first.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Originally posted by Mr Master
Understood.

Are they the exact same characters in both companies?

Is Elaine Yahweh's daughter or the Presence's?

Who created Lucifer, Mike and Elaine? Presence or Yahweh?

Is there any relationship between Yahweh and the Presence?
In Vertigo, The Presence is Yahweh. They are one and the same.
From Yahweh, all things are born. Creation moves outwards from himself, Yahweh creates creation, he creates Micheal and Lucifer and others, they create- yet, at the end of the puzzle, everything in creation leads back to Yahweh. Yahweh is what Micheal and Lucifer call their father.

Urizen makes claim that Yahweh is faulty, because Yahweh said he is formed by other sources when Lucifer said he did a good job of being the only being in existance that doesn't have a beginning with another creature. I take it that creation itself shapes Yahweh. His creations decide what he is and what God will be. Anyways, everything in Vertigo is said to move according to "The Plan", which is Yahweh's plan for all things. The only thing to ever escape it's purpose in "The Plan" is Lucifer, and that was simply because he's imbued with the Will of Yahweh himself, it gave him the ability to truly understand, and leave his purpose and The Plan behind. . .. yet, he's still a creation of Yahweh. Yahweh has never been portrayed as incapable, or imperfect.







In DC, The Presence is The Presence.
It created everything. It is everything.
Elaine is not a DC character.
Micheal nor Lucifer have never mentioned her. She has never appeared to my knowledge in any DC comic.

At the end of the Lucifer run, Yahweh decides to give Elaine lordship of creation. She begins by melding multiple creations together, and getting rid of hell, and rewriting many of the laws of creation.
This, like ELaine's character entirely, has never happened in a DC comic.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Elaine is indeed powerful, but even though she replaces Yahweh as ruler of Creation (the universe as it is stated, not a multiverse, btw) she is not on par with him in terms of raw ability.

Yahweh abandoned his creation long ago, and Elaine being a rather liberal mindset, unmade Hell (as Christopher Rudd had proposed)

The fact that Yahweh did create Hell, already proves him imperfection....I have argued this a million times, so please Juntai do not argue with me on this particular point...
The place in itself, was merely the farthest point from Premium Mobile, inside of the Creation he made.
And, it was all part of The Plan.

Originally posted by Juntai
The place in itself, was merely the farthest point from Premium Mobile, inside of the Creation he made.
And, it was all part of The Plan.

If it was all part of "The Plan" then none of the characters had free will...

Also that's bullshit, because in the last issue of Lucifer, Yahweh wanted Lucifer to accept his gift...to trade experiences, and Lucifer declined..

Yeah, let me guess...that was part of his plan 2, right ?

Well they all have Free Will LU. Everything is goes by the Plan and Yahweh/The Presence will make sure it goes that way. Remember when Lucifer left Hell? A part of the plan was a need for Hell and he made sure Hell returned when he sent Remiel and Duma to rule there. When God talked about being Eternal and forever he wasn't joking.

This is how religion works, even in the DC/Vertigo Universe's. The only thing (we know about) The Presence leaving out of the plan was not knowing who would be the 1 to rule after he left creation. God wanted to understand Lucifer better, thats why he wanted Lucifer to rejoin with him. Gods not going to make Luci do something if he really doesn't want to. Luci said "What you're describing sounds like Death to me." The Presence then corrected him "No, Samael. This would be Life. Life being what Arises when the self throws down its barricades and lets the world break in."

About the battle. Michael/Elaine/Lucifer wins.

Putting Micheal and Lucifer together equates to a match for Thanos and then chucking elaine in the mix my gosh now it gets interesting, i cant really decide on this one it would be an interesting fight.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
If it was all part of "The Plan" then none of the characters had free will...

Also that's bullshit, because in the last issue of Lucifer, Yahweh wanted Lucifer to accept his gift...to trade experiences, and Lucifer declined..

Yeah, let me guess...that was part of his plan 2, right ?
What makes you think Free Will wasn't calculated in The Plan?
Does your understanding of the Lucifer series only encompass a couple scans in the respect thread and the final issue?


Did you happen to actually read the issue? You wouldn't be asking a question like this, had you... or maybe, you know..... I dunno. But it's kind of uncalled for to get smart when I'm simply trying explaining things to my friend Mr Master here. Especially when none of it was out of context or off base.

Lucifer has the WILL of Yahweh. Yet he is a creation of Yahweh, the only creation, due to that will, that was able to escape his purpose in The Plan. Although he could never truly escape The Plan entirely, he escaped his position and purpose and flew off into the void... still a creation of Yawhew, so whever he goes, Yahweh expands.

Originally posted by kevdude
Well they all have Free Will LU. Everything is goes by the Plan and Yahweh/The Presence will make sure it goes that way. Remember when Lucifer left Hell? A part of the plan was a need for Hell and he made sure Hell returned when he sent Remiel and Duma to rule there. When God talked about being Eternal and forever he wasn't joking.

This is how religion works, even in the DC/Vertigo Universe's. The only thing (we know about) The Presence leaving out of the plan was not knowing who would be the 1 to rule after he left creation. God wanted to understand Lucifer better, thats why he wanted Lucifer to rejoin with him. Gods not going to make Luci do something if he really doesn't want to. Luci said "What you're describing sounds like Death to me." The Presence then corrected him "No, Samael. This would be Life. Life being what Arises when the self throws down its barricades and lets the world break in."

About the battle. Michael/Elaine/Lucifer wins. Thanks.

Originally posted by kevdude
Well they all have Free Will LU. Everything is goes by the Plan and Yahweh/The Presence will make sure it goes that way. Remember when Lucifer left Hell? A part of the plan was a need for Hell and he made sure Hell returned when he sent Remiel and Duma to rule there. When God talked about being Eternal and forever he wasn't joking.

Yes, and Duma had Remiel relinquish his rule of Hell, and hand it over to Christopher Rudd....was that also part of Yahweh's plan ?

Christopher Rudd argued that Hell itself is the only true sin, a "Sin" that Yahweh himself committed.

There was NO NEED FOR HELL what part of that don't you get ??? Remiel was an ANTAGONIST, NOT A HERO !

Duma and Christopher Rudd, ALONG with ELAINE proposed strongly that HELL WAS UNNECESSARY...yet who created Hell?

Yahweh did my dear....

Even Lucifer was sick of ruling Hell for 10 Billion Years....

I know they have free will, but not everything goes according to Yahweh's plan. He is infinite and eternal, i never argued against that, but he is NOT complete, he is NOT flawless, and he even WELCOMED CHANGE into his being.

In the last issue when he asked Lucifer to trade experiences, so they they may both evolve into two new beings, Yahweh already confirmed HIMSELF that he is incomplete and capable of further change.



Originally posted by kevdude
This is how religion works, even in the DC/Vertigo Universe's. The only thing (we know about) The Presence leaving out of the plan was not knowing who would be the 1 to rule after he left creation. God wanted to understand Lucifer better, thats why he wanted Lucifer to rejoin with him. Gods not going to make Luci do something if he really doesn't want to. Luci said "What you're describing sounds like Death to me." The Presence then corrected him "No, Samael. This would be Life. Life being what Arises when the self throws down its barricades and lets the world break in."


I read that already.....

This is how religion works is a non-argument, as religion has nothing to do with this....what part of that don't you f*cking get? The Lucifer series goes against religious and traditional stereotypes of Lucifer and God, and challenges every aspect of it, as well as using the Bible and other religions as the MYTHOLOGY to amplify its entertainment value....

Regardless of Yahweh's quote, Lucifer STILL DENIED, and that went AGAINST Yahweh's desires.

Try to convince me that it 2, was part of Yahweh's plan

You have no panel proof for that assertion, you and Juntai only have your own religious bias to confirm that, and please...adding your own religious bias into this is getting reallly tiring already....

Originally posted by kevdude
About the battle. Michael/Elaine/Lucifer wins.

Okay, and how so ? And please no "Well my God always wins argument"

Originally posted by Juntai
What makes you think Free Will wasn't calculated in The Plan?
Does your understanding of the Lucifer series only encompass a couple scans in the respect thread and the final issue?

1) Free Will and Destiny cannot coexist in the same reality...for they contradict each other's existance.

Yahweh's plan is "destiny" while free will is something else all together...

As I already stated in previous argument, events happened that displeased Yahweh. Hell, Yahweh himself even admitted that he created "practice" universes before he created the one that the series takes place in...

He runs by trial and error, and his "plan" does not always fold out the way he desires.

2) FYI, I own 3 Lucifer Graphic novels, the final issue, 8 other issues, and i do my research.


Originally posted by Juntai
Did you happen to actually read the issue? You wouldn't be asking a question like this, had you... or maybe, you know..... I dunno. But it's kind of uncalled for to get smart when I'm simply trying explaining things to my friend Mr Master here. Especially when none of it was out of context or off base.


I did read the issue in it's entirely, read my last post, you will see.

Originally posted by Juntai
Lucifer has the WILL of Yahweh. Yet he is a creation of Yahweh, the only creation, due to that will, that was able to escape his purpose in The Plan. Although he could never truly escape The Plan entirely, he escaped his position and purpose and flew off into the void... still a creation of Yawhew, so whever he goes, Yahweh expands.


I understand that Yahweh is infinite and almighty...i never argued against THAT...

However, Lucifer, on panel denied any trade with Yahweh....and Yahweh DESIRED him to accept, but it didn't happen.

That didn't go according to Yahweh's plan, and that is the point.

Lucifer was not the only one to defy Yahweh....Elaine had as well.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Urizen made an arguement towards the imperfection of that Vertigo God There is NO describable imperfection in Vertigo's God, of course he is Imperfect by our standards because he was drawn by normal people in the real world, but by comic standards the Vertigo God is Perfect by all means.

I just want to add my two cents in, at the end of the lucifer series, even though it doesnt say it in plain text (it leaves it open for interpretation) I believe Michael went on with the Creator and left creation behind as well.

I see vertigo a perhaps a sub-reality of DC, almost like a dream in which Michael and Lucifer were being taught and trained, growing to maturity.

Because at the very end Lucifer choses not to become everything that god is and in return god becomes everything that lucifer is, ala defiiance, deniance, yaweh could have easily made lucifer chose yes or just given himself what lucifer had, it wasn't a matter of gain but the focus and importance was the choice lucifer made which was yes or no.

Michael on the other hand (quite literarly) dissaperes, I believe he finally understood all as well but in a different way that lucifer did. Lucifer had the will to understand and be set free, Michael through power melded with dc's god and became free.

Does anyone understand what I am saying?

P.S. vertigo's god (yaweh) also states in one of the issues, I dont remember which, that all is according to the plan, he specifically mentions Lucifer's free will has been all part of the plan, such as his rebellion and his defiance, wanting to be away from destiny, but even though he could go as far as he wanted he was always part of the plan because that is what yaweh had purposed him to do.

The only one that "it will go as planed" for is Thanos.
Becuase here he's God.

As I got it, Michael got a taste, a portion of Yewhew's power.
And Lucifer a portion of his intelligence.

Of course Yehew could easiley take those powers back if he wanted.
So could Thanos w/ Heart, because he's also God.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
The only one that "it will go as planed" for is Thanos.
Becuase here he's God.

As I got it, Michael got a taste, a portion of Yewhew's power.
And Lucifer a portion of his intelligence.

Of course Yehew could easiley take those powers back if he wanted.
So could Thanos w/ Heart, because he's also God. You Refer to Thanos as if he were God, Remember Thanos had TOAA's power but not his omniscents.......... and how is someone with TOAA's power going to take away power from lucifer/michael when they are in a different continuity? It dosent make sense, and that logic wont work

Originally posted by Galan777
You Refer to Thanos as if he were God, Remember Thanos had TOAA's power but not his omniscents.......... and how is someone with TOAA's power going to take away power from lucifer/michael when they are in a different continuity? It dosent make sense, and that logic wont work
Correction: Omniscients not omniscent

God can easiley remove what he have created with his powers.
A good example is Thanos absorbing a omnipotent being like the Living Tribunal like he was nothing - "The top of the foodchain".

So obviously he would be able to absorb the second most powerful beings in Vertigo as well as nothing.

Yawhew is the only being in DC that would possibly stalemate Thanos.
I mean he can't beat him because they are on the same level, intelligence is not a factor here.

If you say that TOAA is the writer, and Thanos had the same power, than Yawhew, Presence and the rest would be shit compared to him.

Beyonder also had the power of the writers

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
events happened that displeased Yahweh. Hell, Yahweh himself even admitted that he created "practice" universes before he created the one that the series takes place in...

However, Lucifer, on panel denied any trade with Yahweh....and Yahweh DESIRED him to accept, but it didn't happen.

That didn't go according to Yahweh's plan, and that is the point.


Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I know they have free will, but not everything goes according to Yahweh's plan. He is infinite and eternal, i never argued against that, but he is NOT complete, he is NOT flawless, and he even WELCOMED CHANGE into his being.

In the last issue when he asked Lucifer to trade experiences, so they they may both evolve into two new beings, Yahweh already confirmed HIMSELF that he is incomplete and capable of further change.


LU is making strong points here, this is evidence of fallibility.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Correction: Omniscients not omniscent

God can easiley remove what he have created with his powers.
A good example is Thanos absorbing a omnipotent being like the Living Tribunal like he was nothing - "The top of the foodchain".

So obviously he would be able to absorb the second most powerful beings in Vertigo as well as nothing.

Yawhew is the only being in DC that would possibly stalemate Thanos.
I mean he can't beat him because they are on the same level, intelligence is not a factor here.

If you say that TOAA is the writer, and Thanos had the same power, than Yawhew, Presence and the rest would be shit compared to him.

Beyonder also had the power of the writers Your missing the point, TOAA is from Marvel, God/Yahweh is from DC, it is rediculous to say that Marvel's TOAA could take the power away from michael and lucifer who are under a completely different God in a completely different comic continuity.

Originally posted by Galan777
Your missing the point, TOAA is from Marvel, God/Yahweh is from DC, it is rediculous to say that Marvel's TOAA could take the power away from michael and lucifer who are under a completely different God in a completely different comic continuity.

It is equally rediculous to say that Lucifer and Micheal can somehow beat Thanos with HOTU when he is practically TOAA's equal in raw power...

It goes both ways....this debate is under the automatic assumption that one contiunuity can affect the other...

Otherwise, no debate would be possible.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
It is equally rediculous to say that Lucifer and Micheal can somehow beat Thanos with HOTU when he is practically TOAA's equal in raw power...

It goes both ways....this debate is under the automatic assumption that one contiunuity can affect the other...

Otherwise, no debate would be possible. When did i say the duo would beat Thanos THOTU? I simply said that he couldnt take their powers away as Yahweh could....

Thanos HOTU ftw

Originally posted by Galan777
When did i say the duo would beat Thanos THOTU? I simply said that he couldnt take their powers away as Yahweh could....


He wouldn't have to....he can just erase them. Or absorb them...or turn them into toilet paper....

Thanos with HOTU is way too powerful....Marvel wins this unfairly, because you're putting Thanos with HOTU and Living Tribunal against Mike and Luke, and the brothers have a very small chance of beating them both....

Spectre is a non factor since Thanos with HOTU can easily easily destroy him the way he absorbed LT

Adam Warlock with IG may be defeatable by the brothers...

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
He wouldn't have to....he can just erase them. Or absorb them...or turn them into toilet paper....

Thanos with HOTU is way too powerful....Marvel wins this unfairly, because you're putting Thanos with HOTU and Living Tribunal against Mike and Luke, and the brothers have a very small chance of beating them both....

Spectre is a non factor since Thanos with HOTU can easily easily destroy him the way he absorbed LT

Adam Warlock with IG may be defeatable by the brothers... I agree that Thanos wins, and that he could possibly absorb the brothers, but he never took power away from any being in the series, so we cant just assume he would be able to do this to the other team without him ever doing it on pannel, thats all i was saying........ but none the less, Thanos still wins

Originally posted by Galan777
but he never took power away from any being in the series, so we cant just assume he would be able to do this to the other team without him ever doing it on pannel,

Well if you think about it friend,

Absorb: means, take in or soak up (energy...amongst other things)

So he actually did take LT's power along with everyone elses.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Well if you think about it friend,

Absorb: means, take in or soak up (energy...amongst other things)

So he actually did take LT's power along with everyone elses. someone implied that thanos could just remove lucifer/mikes power alone....... he never did this, so its a bold assumption

Originally posted by Galan777
someone implied that thanos could just remove lucifer/mikes power alone....... he never did this, so its a bold assumption

I don't know if he can remove their powers, but he certainly can absorb their powers and them, just like he did with LT.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen

I understand that Yahweh is infinite and almighty...i never argued against THAT...

However, Lucifer, on panel denied any trade with Yahweh....and Yahweh DESIRED him to accept, but it didn't happen.

That didn't go according to Yahweh's plan, and that is the point.

Lucifer was not the only one to defy Yahweh....Elaine had as well. However, what you're arguing there is fruitless, I already explained, and it was explained in the issue, being why I question you if you actually read it... that Lucifer has the will and power of Yahweh, the WILL allowed him to be the only being to ever truly defy Yahweh, and Yahweh specifically describes this in the issue. Speaking of how Samael escaped his purpose in The Plan, and eventually the entire Plan itself.

Wtf?

Originally posted by Jesse7
Yet he still lost didnt he?

Elaine becomes DC's god, Michael and lucifer have the ability to go beyond all creation and non existance, that and Michael+Lucifer=dc's god.

Team 1 10/10
What kind of crack are you smoking? Thanos never lost when he had THOTU.

Lucifer was created, and imparted with Yahweh's own infinite will. On a mental and will level, Yahweh created a being that could eventually be his equal in those aspects, as he didn't give him a lesser portion, he gave the INFINITE to his creation.

Yahweh wanted to merge with Lucifer and the infinite mind and will that he imparted to him, so he could see how everything looked from his point of view, having an infinite will, but not being infinite himself... What he thought of his struggles, his father, etc.... Yahweh could have just done the act, and no one could have said otherwise, but he let his son make that choice, and the son defied the father. Just as Yahweh created him with the ability to do.

I don't see any falibility in what was shown in Lucifer, having read & own the whole series.

Originally posted by Juntai
However, what you're arguing there is fruitless, I already explained, and it was explained in the issue, being why I question you if you actually read it... that Lucifer has the will and power of Yahweh, the WILL allowed him to be the only being to ever truly defy Yahweh, and Yahweh specifically describes this in the issue. Speaking of how Samael escaped his purpose in The Plan, and eventually the entire Plan itself.

Keyword Juntai: Escaped his purpose in the plan. I am already aware of the fact that Lucifer is the only person who truly has a stand of genuine defiance against Yahweh..the simple rejection of Yahweh's offer was obvious enough.

Yahweh did not want him to reject but take....

This is what you don't get...

Yahweh's "plan" or Yahweh himself is subject to change. He created Hell only to have it destroyed later. Lucifer ruled Hell for 10 Billion Years, and grew tired of it.

Just because all else goes according to "Yahweh's plan" does not make him perfect by any means what-so-ever. In fact, that was practically the gist of the series...Lucifer's defiance of Yahweh was a push and pull of "Yahweh is flawed, yet he is in charge of all existence"

Yahweh displays human characteristics....now, I know you will argue "but by comic book logic, Yahweh is perfect"..it matters not, because by ACTUAL LOGIC he is flawed...Comic book logic means nothing in this case, because he is not truly perfect...he was created by human writers, he has scripted out conflict (every battle was part of his "plan"

He is not a complete being, he welcomed Change when he offered Lucifer the exchange of experiences.

Originally posted by Juntai
Wtf?


Okay, let me clarify. Three ABSURD arguments you have made in the past:


1) Lucifer Morningstar is evil because the Bible says he is...

2) The Lawbringers from NEGATION are not evil, because they are serving thier God Charon

3) Lucifer is evil because he defies God (even though Yahweh planned every single conflict and suffering that did not center around Lucifer)




Oh wait, and I almost forgot...the worst argument you ever made:


"God works in mysterious ways"

Like that's gonna cut it in a debate...

Originally posted by Juntai
Lucifer was created, and imparted with Yahweh's own infinite will. On a mental and will level, Yahweh created a being that could eventually be his equal in those aspects, as he didn't give him a lesser portion, he gave the INFINITE to his creation.


I know this already...that is why Lucifer was virtually unstoppable and extremely intelligent..

Let me ask you: Do you think Lucifer is flawed?

Do you understand that he is still an EXTENSION of Yahweh?

What does THAT MEAN ?!?!?! Yahweh has A FLAW....


Originally posted by Juntai
Yahweh wanted to merge with Lucifer and the infinite mind and will that he imparted to him, so he could see how everything looked from his point of view, having an infinite will, but not being infinite himself... What he thought of his struggles, his father, etc.... Yahweh could have just done the act, and no one could have said otherwise, but he let his son make that choice, and the son defied the father. Just as Yahweh created him with the ability to do.

Regardless an event went against Yahweh's original intent. Yahweh was shaped by forces external to himself...if he was truly perfect, he'd already be complete and not been formed from any external forces....

Originally posted by Juntai
I don't see any falibility in what was shown in Lucifer, having read & own the whole series.

1) The very fact that Yahweh created Hell shows a major flaw in his character: Having his own creations being tortured for billions of years because they defied him....I'd expect you not to see this as a flaw, since your a religious dude and you beleive that Hell is just...

2) Yahweh created "Practice" Universes before he created the mainstream one in Lucifer....enough said....



WHY are you still debating ?

Man . . . Lord Urizen, you're good.
You can find flaws in peoples statements easiley.
And you question them as well.

Like a genius thinks five steps ahead.
Are you some kind of scientist?

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Man . . . Lord Urizen, you're good.
You can find flaws in peoples statements easiley.
And you question them as well.

Like a genius thinks five steps ahead.
Are you some kind of scientist?

Thanks a lot man...I am still waiting for Juntai to counter my argument...it's been over 24 hours already....

I haven't responded because I didn't see it, and the fact it's circular, much like all of your arguements. You're going back to things I've covered already, even in other threads. I'm not going to keep explaining it to you.

Irrelivent. Lucifer wasn't made to be perfect. He was made even with a form, something Yahweh does not have unless he chooses to. In his natural state, he is beyond all comprehension.



Yahweh created Lucifer with the capacity to do so. If you purposely cut a hole in a side of bottle of water, and then water leaks out of the hole, it doesn't mean your project was a failure. You got the desired results.

Originally posted by Juntai
I haven't responded because I didn't see it, and the fact it's circular, much like all of your arguements. You're going back to things I've covered already, even in other threads. I'm not going to keep explaining it to you.

Irrelivent. Lucifer wasn't made to be perfect. He was made even with a form, something Yahweh does not have unless he chooses to. In his natural state, he is beyond all comprehension.



Yahweh created Lucifer with the capacity to do so. If you purposely cut a hole in a side of bottle of water, and then water leaks out of the hole, it doesn't mean your project was a failure. You got the desired results.

I think Juanti is bang on accurate with his argument in this thread.

Originally posted by Juntai
I haven't responded because I didn't see it, and the fact it's circular, much like all of your arguements. You're going back to things I've covered already, even in other threads. I'm not going to keep explaining it to you.

Originally posted by Juntai
Irrelivent. Lucifer wasn't made to be perfect. He was made even with a form, something Yahweh does not have unless he chooses to. In his natural state, he is beyond all comprehension.


So Yahweh made himself imperfect....o0o0o that changes everything


Originally posted by Juntai
Yahweh created Lucifer with the capacity to do so. If you purposely cut a hole in a side of bottle of water, and then water leaks out of the hole, it doesn't mean your project was a failure. You got the desired results.


Regardless, Lucifer is an extension of Yahweh, he himself has many flaws, and Yahweh himself has total flaws. You have not addressed this....

Yahweh created Hell...

Yahweh created "practice" universes...

The evidense goes against you. Deny or Ignore it all you want, it shows what kind of debator you are.

Originally posted by darthgoober
What kind of crack are you smoking? Thanos never lost when he had THOTU. And thus, it would seem that one has no idea what they are talking about.
So far, I've never seen her say that a DC character, or a DC related character loses.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
So Yahweh made himself imperfect....o0o0o that changes everything





Regardless, Lucifer is an extension of Yahweh, he himself has many flaws, and Yahweh himself has total flaws. You have not addressed this....

Yahweh created Hell...

Yahweh created "practice" universes...

The evidense goes against you. Deny or Ignore it all you want, it shows what kind of debator you are. How does the creation of Hell show imperfection?

It is merely the farthest point from the premum mobile.
Souls are sentenced to this place on their own volition, because they feel they don't deserve heaven.

Yahweh has many multiverses. As in the final issue, Lucifer is shown flying out of creation, infinitely overlapping. Then it switches perspective to one. Then he looks across, and see's a sea of others just like the one his selves, plural, flew out of.
Which are the practice ones?.

Juntai, do you think that THOTU thanos will lose? Or are you just making the argument that they would put up a better fight?

Originally posted by King Kandy
Juntai, do you think that THOTU thanos will lose? Or are you just making the argument that they would put up a better fight? Thanos with HOTU would probably win, Elaine is only lord over a single multiverse, as far as I can tell. It doesn't really detail anything about the others, just that Yahweh gave her that one. But when Lucifer left, he saw an infinity of others. If he indeed gave her dominion over all that is, she is indeed as powerful by herself.

As a general rule though, arguing Supereme beings is kinda dumb, imo.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Juntai, do you think that THOTU thanos will lose? Or are you just making the argument that they would put up a better fight?
That's how you force people to come back to earth.
Gravity bind.

But the it's a battle and the only thing you are supose to do is explain who and why he/she/it will win.

To explain how good they would do is a little far fetched.

do you people have to get into a religious argument over these made up supposidly omnipatent characters PRESANCE WAS CREATED BY EXTERNAL FORCES, AND BEYONDER HAD THE POWER OF THE WRIGHTERS SO HE WAS PROBABLY GREATER THEN TOAA, AND THANOS EXPENDED ALL HIS POWER THATS WHY TOAA LET HIM HAVE IT SO HE WOULD LET THANOS DIE INSTEAD OF HIMSELF.

Originally posted by Mider999
do you people have to get into a religious argument over these made up supposidly omnipatent characters PRESANCE WAS CREATED BY EXTERNAL FORCES, AND BEYONDER HAD THE POWER OF THE WRIGHTERS SO HE WAS PROBABLY GREATER THEN TOAA, AND THANOS EXPENDED ALL HIS POWER THATS WHY TOAA LET HIM HAVE IT SO HE WOULD LET THANOS DIE INSTEAD OF HIMSELF.

Ask Juntai, as that becomes the basis for most of his arguments, and he doesn't realize that it takes away from the validity of his points.

seriously Lord Urizen if you put it that way wouldn't TOAA also be imperfect because he created beings like Mephisto and his hellish realm? and Juntai is right if he created Lucifer with the potential to defy him and knew that he did that then he didn't make a mistake.

Originally posted by Superherovandal
seriously Lord Urizen if you put it that way wouldn't TOAA also be imperfect because he created beings like Mephisto and his hellish realm? and Juntai is right if he created Lucifer with the potential to defy him and knew that he did that then he didn't make a mistake.

I never said TOAA was perfect...we don't even know it it's a "He"..why are you generalizing ?

Regardless, Lucifer is an extension of Yahweh....is Lucifer flawed? Yes or No ?

no Lucifer is an entirely different entity with power from Yahweh not a part of Yahweh. i use "he" because it just makes the whole usage of a pronoun for TOAA simpler.

Originally posted by Superherovandal
no Lucifer is an entirely different entity with power from Yahweh not a part of Yahweh. i use "he" because it just makes the whole usage of a pronoun for TOAA simpler.

In the final issue of Lucifer, Lucifer got pissed when Yahweh claimed that Lucifer is an aspect of himself through which he acts, as is Micheal.

Lucifer furiously claimed his individuality, but ultamately, he is a part of Yahweh, and he will never escape that.

yes an aspect with a separate identity and completely different personality. so he is both an aspect and separate

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Yes, and Duma had Remiel relinquish his rule of Hell, and hand it over to Christopher Rudd....was that also part of Yahweh's plan ?

Christopher Rudd argued that Hell itself is the only true sin, a "Sin" that Yahweh himself committed.

There was NO NEED FOR HELL what part of that don't you get ??? Remiel was an ANTAGONIST, NOT A HERO !

Duma and Christopher Rudd, ALONG with ELAINE proposed strongly that HELL WAS UNNECESSARY...yet who created Hell?

Yahweh did my dear....

Even Lucifer was sick of ruling Hell for 10 Billion Years....

I know they have free will, but not everything goes according to Yahweh's plan. He is infinite and eternal, i never argued against that, but he is NOT complete, he is NOT flawless, and he even WELCOMED CHANGE into his being.

In the last issue when he asked Lucifer to trade experiences, so they they may both evolve into two new beings, Yahweh already confirmed HIMSELF that he is incomplete and capable of further change.






I read that already.....

This is how religion works is a non-argument, as religion has nothing to do with this....what part of that don't you f*cking get? The Lucifer series goes against religious and traditional stereotypes of Lucifer and God, and challenges every aspect of it, as well as using the Bible and other religions as the MYTHOLOGY to amplify its entertainment value....

Regardless of Yahweh's quote, Lucifer STILL DENIED, and that went AGAINST Yahweh's desires.

Try to convince me that it 2, was part of Yahweh's plan

You have no panel proof for that assertion, you and Juntai only have your own religious bias to confirm that, and please...adding your own religious bias into this is getting reallly tiring already....



Okay, and how so ? And please no "Well my God always wins argument"

This is a complete waste of my time to reply to this.. You have no idea what your talking about. And don't bring my religion into this. I haven't said anything about my god this my god that, YOU are the only one talking about other peoples faiths in comics.. About Rudd, yes that also was a part of Yahweh's plan, if you read of all Lucifer you would know that already! Kids these days

Originally posted by kevdude
This is a complete waste of my time to reply to this.. You have no idea what your talking about. And don't bring my religion into this. I haven't said anything about my god this my god that, YOU are the only one talking about other peoples faiths in comics.. About Rudd, yes that also was a part of Yahweh's plan, if you read of all Lucifer you would know that already! Kids these days

1) I only address people's faiths when they bring it into thier argument. Juntai is notorious for such, and I do not recall accusing you of bringing your religious bias into it...however, If I did, then it was because you made a statement such as :

"God is perfect" ...or whatever such statement, and statements such as those are pure religious bias, and in no way applicable to a comic book debate.

2) Rudd was part of Yahweh's plan as was Hell...both are aspects of Yahweh's entirely, two CONTRADICTING aspects. Therefore, Yahweh is flawed.

So Yahweh's plan is continously changing, interesting and cool, but flawed.

Stop trying to argue that he is perfect, because he is not in any way, shape, or form.

Originally posted by Superherovandal
yes an aspect with a separate identity and completely different personality. so he is both an aspect and separate

He is an aspect of Yahweh nonetheless.

Yahweh referred to Lucifer as "an aspect of myself THROUGH WHICH I ACT"

Do you not recall? Lucifer is not entirely separate from Yahweh, in fact THAT WAS THE POINT....Lucifer fought for individuality, he fought to be his own, but no matter what he will always be a part of Yahweh...even JUNTAI confirmed that.

No comebacks guys? Oh well....