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This should be an interesting one...

Setting is the open desert on Ruusan.
A few boulders are around, but its pretty clear.

Lightsaber and Force.

Who wins this?

I think it's been done before. In a lightsaber battle it's pretty even but I would give the match to Mace because of his shatterpoint. In the force, Exar Kun is superior to Mace. In an overall battle, it would go either way with Exar Kun winning more times than not.

Hmm. Agreed.

Thats a really good way of looking at it, Sexy...

I agree that Mace could use Shatterpoint to beat Kun, but, Kun is more powerful, at least by some, than RotS Sidious, and Mace did beat Sidious, but not with much to spare, know what I mean?

So Im thinking that If Exar is just so many notches above Sidious in power, than Mace may not be able to bridge the gap with his Vapaad.

Exar Kun isn't more powerful than Sidious. That's a common misconception. And Mace is only more powerful than Sidious with a saber, not the force.

Shatterpoint isn't that effective. Mace even has difficulty employing it in battles, I'd say Exar is his slight superior in terms of saber combat, quite a bit stronger in the force, plus he has sith magic. Mace can't win this one, in my eyes.

Mace has 'difficulty employing it in battle?' Tell that to Palpatine and Jango.

Does Exar have that wacky amulet of his?

idk this could go either way imo i think it would be a stalemate but most likely people are gonna say kun would take it

Wacky amulet or not, Kuns not going to be able to use it in a saber battle with an equally powerful saber user.

Kun wins for sure.

thanks for your brilliant argument DS

With his amulet, Kun easily wins. In a just plain saber fight, I would Mace takes it BARELY. However, in the Force, exar wins. Overall, Exar beats up Windu.

Mace, he has the shatterpoint thing. He's pretty damn fast so even if Kun does have his amulet, Mace can dodge the blasts. In terms of the saber, Mace is probably second to Luke, with Kun being third.

Kun blasts Mace's face with the amulets or force chokes him. Considering that Kun can force choke Odan-Urr, a millenia old Jedi Master who knows more than Mace could ever hope to know, and virtually WTFpwned Vodo in lightsaber combat, Mace stands a very slim chance. Especially when you consider that Mace nearly died in Shatterpoint to a Force User who was untrained, and the circumstances of his victory over Sidious in RotS are debatable. Hardly concrete proof of his Shatterpoint.

Well, Kar wasn't really untrained. Depa did teach him some but not much on Haruun Kal.

Still, a crash course from Mace's pupil shouldn't make someone able to contend with the second most badass in the Order. Obviously Mace is not able to just overcome anybody with Shatterpoint. And since Kun makes Kar look like a pussycat, I give the match to Kun.

Lol, pwnd! It's Janus!

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Kun blasts Mace's face with the amulets or force chokes him. Considering that Kun can force choke Odan-Urr, a millenia old Jedi Master who knows more than Mace could ever hope to know, and virtually WTFpwned Vodo in lightsaber combat, Mace stands a very slim chance. Especially when you consider that Mace nearly died in Shatterpoint to a Force User who was untrained, and the circumstances of his victory over Sidious in RotS are debatable. Hardly concrete proof of his Shatterpoint.

Uh force abilities clearly go to Kun..But what does Kun beating Vodo have to do with him beating Mace in a saber fight? Unless of course you're going to parade around with your theory of how Vodo>Yoda and how he was the imaginary grandmaster. Mace>>>>Vodo.And Mace's victory over Sidious is NOT debateable, it was very clear in the ROTS commentary and ROTS Novelization. Don't make up stuff because it suits your argument..Not to mention Mace has the force crush ability...In fact I don't even know where you're coming from with your argument.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Still, a crash course from Mace's pupil shouldn't make someone able to contend with the second most badass in the Order. Obviously Mace is not able to just overcome anybody with Shatterpoint. And since Kun makes Kar look like a pussycat, I give the match to Kun.
Kun makes Kar look like a pussycat? I'm glad this is your opinion Janus.

how about more likely Kun gets his ass handed him to him since he's noticeably not as big, strong or agile as Kar fighting in a jungle bare handed?

And Odan Ur showed...what power? None? He was completely useless in the Hyperspace War with hearsay alone? Whilst Kun has...what going for him? Last I checked, Mace can resist telekenisis.

He has what exactly? Amulets that have never been used against a half-decent force user? Little stills of him fighting totally unknown people?

No, I'll go with the guy who dismantles small armies with his bare hands and throws Kun's own darkside power back in his face

Now I wouldn't say Odan-Urr showed nothing, I mean wasn't he a master of battle meditation and the force blocking technique?

He was stated to have 'remained keeper of antiquities for six centuries, and in those years extensively researched into jedi and sith lore', in other words he was somewhat of a jedi historian, and I think it's safe to say that he knew a hell of a lot of other jedi techniques due to his nature, the amount of time he had and how much knowledge was available at the time.

He was also able to foresee that the ancient sith empire still existed in a dream, pretty impressive imo.

And he was said to have fought the ancient sith, and the only reason Kun was able to kill him so easily was because he was too old imo. I mean he was even able to instantl sense the darkness in Kun and force push him across the floor moments before, I'd say that's pretty impressive.

well and didnt exar look like he was waving 5 lightsabers when he fought vodo? want a picture to prove it? it matches the same exact saying when jaina said "luke looked like waving 20 lightsabers" and + the main saber, exar looks like he is waving sixhttp://img30.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kunvsvodo38ja.jpg

and no that isnt the blur effect this is,
http://img30.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kunvsvodo47ob.jpg

The first one is blur effect as well. Look when he strikes at Vodo, it's the same. Do you mean that his six looking lightsabers are all striking behind one another, at the same place. If he moved that fast, then they would be all over Vodo, not following in eachothers trails...

well look at the one where he killed vodo, thats the blur, or the one where he fought master ood, that was also a blur, this one is different... and it can be called a technique to distract your opponent rather than "6 sabers" cut you up

What the hell are you talking about ESB? Stop making shit up.

making shit up? heres another pic to PROVE that exars was not a blur, TAKE A LOOK AT IT this one is a BLUR exars was not http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=5&page=122

there you go exar hater

Those ARE blurs. Comon, if he could make his saber look like 6, then they wouldn't all be striking at the same direction, in a line behind each other now would they? What happens when Luke fights is that it looks like he is striking with 20 at once, however this only shows that Exar attacks with one, followed by six others which never actually lands a blow, which means they ARE blurrs...

yes and he did it in a way to distract his opponents, its a common tactic the samurais use in real life, i didnt say all 6 sabers would kill his opponents, yes you are correct, they follow the core, slightly different from a blur, but its used to confuse an opponenent of wondering which of the 6 blades would hit when it actually is just a normal strike

ask yourself, at the bottom of the picture, why is he shaking his lightsaber to make it look like 6 blades coming at vodo, a few reasons are 1) to distract his opponents, 2) or to create enough momentum to land a powerful blow

but what ever it is, i assume exar kun problably uses form V because of the quote from DLOTS "they clashed their lightsabers so powerful it could be heard from kilometers away"

yes and he did it in a way to distract his opponents, its a common tactic the samurais use in real life, i didnt say all 6 sabers would kill his opponents, yes you are correct, they follow the core, slightly different from a blur, but its used to confuse an opponenent of wondering which of the 6 blades would hit when it actually is just a normal strike

No... because the only saber you would have to block would be the first one, because there all going in the same direction. There IS no distraction if all of the blades are going in the same direction, a line. It WOULD be a distraction, however, if it was six blades coming from multiple directions as you would have to guess which one is the real one.

That IS just a blur used by the comic writer to show MOVEMENT.

Besides, if he was going that fast, the writer would have made some comment on it in the picture.

wrong again, its weather you will know which of the 6 moving blades is going to hit you, have you seen rurouni kenshin? shishio used the same tactic with fire to distract his opponents and then go for the kill, o and if they were going fast the writer would have made a comment? then why were there no comments on the speed on the saber in DE?

and as i said, look at the picture below when exar holds and shakes his lightsaber vertically, it created 12 blurred blades altogether and vodo would have to know which of those 12 is going to strike from that point. how many times do i have to say it, its a tactic to confuse your opponents, look at all the links i posted, read them COMPARE them

i also SAID it was a POSSIBILITY, NEVER ignore the posibilities just because no one wrote anything about them
and read this, it partly explains how he distracts his opponents
Exar Kun was masterful at lightsaber combat, known to have been a double-bladed lightsaber combat master, and was also known to have fought with two blades on occasion, being adept at the Jar'Kai style of fighting. Exar's lightsaber, unlike nearly all Sith lightsabers that followed it, was also blue, presumably because red hadn't yet been established as the color of the Sith. His lightsaber also had the ability to independently change the length and strength of the blades, causing confusion and over/under-compensation from his opponents in combat

you're an idiot ESB, it's one blur showing slow movement. Nothing more. Your opinion=/fact

Wait hold up, saying that blurs and afterimages indicate speed is a perfectly valid interpretation, and I'd say that in this particular case, that is most likely what is being shown.

Originally posted by ESB Vader
wrong again, its weather you will know which of the 6 moving blades is going to hit you, have you seen rurouni kenshin? shishio used the same tactic with fire to distract his opponents and then go for the kill, o and if they were going fast the writer would have made a comment? then why were there no comments on the speed on the saber in DE?

and as i said, look at the picture below when exar holds and shakes his lightsaber vertically, it created 12 blurred blades altogether and vodo would have to know which of those 12 is going to strike from that point. how many times do i have to say it, its a tactic to confuse your opponents, look at all the links i posted, read them COMPARE them

i also SAID it was a POSSIBILITY, NEVER ignore the posibilities just because no one wrote anything about them
and read this, it partly explains how he distracts his opponents
Exar Kun was masterful at lightsaber combat, known to have been a double-bladed lightsaber combat master, and was also known to have fought with two blades on occasion, being adept at the Jar'Kai style of fighting. Exar's lightsaber, unlike nearly all Sith lightsabers that followed it, was also blue, presumably because red hadn't yet been established as the color of the Sith. His lightsaber also had the ability to independently change the length and strength of the blades, causing confusion and over/under-compensation from his opponents in combat




It just shows the speed and direction of the blade. Even IF it would be like 6 sabers, then it still sucks since he cannot actually steer them in different directions. Luke hit like he swung 20 sabers AT ONCE, meaning that when he fought, it looked like he had 20 sabers. However, Kun's only move after his own saber, and it is only one saber that attacks all the time, so it's still not 6 sabers at once. (Not saying they actually had 6 or 20 sabers, but you should get my point).

And anyone could spin their saber to confuse the enemy, nothing special there...

Oh please. the comic just showed Kun's blade move in slow motion. There is absolutely NOTHING to suggest it moved like 6 blades.

I know....

Yeah, the after effect, a common image in comics....such proof! In KOTOR, Ulic leaves behind afterimages in a training session...was he moving so fast there were six Ulics?

Force: Exar

Lightsaber: It's really close. You would expect that a person so powerful with the Dark Side of the Force would be skilled with the saber, but Mace is a master with his Vapaad. It's really close, I would say Exar, though I am not at all sure.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yeah, the after effect, a common image in comics....such proof! In KOTOR, Ulic leaves behind afterimages in a training session...was he moving so fast there were six Ulics?

No, but it is a mechanic that illustrates speed. Ulic was clearly damn agile.

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
Force: Exar


Oh, please, the only force feats Kun showed were with the amulet. Mace's lightsaber reflects his power. Blue (good) and red (evil) make purple. Mace has not a vast collection of light powers but dark powers too. He won an entire battle by himself, using only his fists. Without the amulet, Kun loses to Mace. Even with his amulet, Kun still loses.

for the last time idiot DS and LS i said it MIGHT be a tactic to distract his opponent, already quotes from other sources have said something about his lightsaber causing confusion, god dammit are you an idiot or what

and kamikz READ MY POST i didnt say ALL 6 WILL HIT HIS OPPONENT

Holy Sh*t...

I am SO proud of Darth Sexy and Lightsnake...

These guys have been showing so much brain power...I mean, Im not sure how to even say it...

And Blu Hefner has been really, really awsome too!

Guys, after thinking about it, I've realized that Mace Windu in ordinary terms can't compete with Exar Kun through the Force.

But.

With Vapaad, he can absorb the lost energy wafting off his body to constantly fuel him through the fight,

And.

He can absorb and redirect Exar Kun's energy, back into him If need be.
So it cancel's out Kun's advantage.

Plus in a lightsaber duel, he could just cut Kun's amulet away from his body in a fight and then basicly out-technique him with his lightsaber.

I say Mace wins this one.

Barely.beer

But he wins!box


(Damn, I wish I had Lightsnake as an apprentice too! But...uh...he'd probally just conspire with Sexy against me and kill me to claim title of Dark Lord...fear)

Hey, leave me outta this. I'm just trying to increase my post number. Nevermind, I got confused.

Originally posted by Blue_Hefner
Hey, leave me outta this. I'm just trying to increase my post number.



Lol, pardon?

Originally posted by Darth Sexiest
And Blu Hefner has been really, really awsome too!

............

Originally posted by Blue_Hefner
............


Yeah, you defended Mace?

Good job?

Blu Hefner: Thank you for the compliment, Dark Lord Sexiest.

Oh, your welcome, Blue!

My name is Blue. I thought it was sarcasm as first for some reason. Thanks anyways. I only defended him because me and Mace are both black, though.

I wasen't being sarcastic, sorry. And sorry, It was a typo. ^_^'

Your very welcome btw.

And It's good do defend your brother.

Stand up for your rights! thumbup1

Errr, well, does mace win or what? I am quite surprised by this, but..

Yeah, Mace wins, but not by much.

Just got to the party?

I'm surprised. However, in Force + Saber, Exar wins along with the Force.


HOWEVER, IN LIGHTSABERS, EXAR BARELY LOSES.

Originally posted by Blue_Hefner
Oh, please, the only force feats Kun showed were with the amulet.

Yes, this would seem absolutely correct, except:

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/4563/kunsenate2oz8.th.jpg
http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/3724/byeodanba1.th.jpg
http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/5162/aleemablastsk6.th.jpg

You were saying? Freezing possibly near millions (hundreds of thousands at the very least) of sentient beings, and controlling them as well. Owning the thousand year old Jedi Master, Odan Urr, who was proficient in the Force, which is noted by his dialogue that he stripped Ancient Sith, he's also proficient in Battle meditation, and has taught the Force stripping technique to Vodo and Nomi both. He also used Sith magic on Aleema, something Mace has never even seen. We also know he possesses the power of Force lightning, as well.

And in Dark Apprentice we do see that everything post-DE Luke (who learned from DE Sidious, Yoda, Obi-Wan, etc.) tried to use on an amateur Kyp Durron (only 16) and Exar's spirit was completely ineffective. To assume that Exar's 4000 year old spirit and a young greenhorn are stronger combined than Exar in the flesh is ridiculous, especially since there's quite a few things one cannot simply do as a ghost. Obi-Wan lost his power, Nadd claimed he was "powerless" - which isn't so much exactly true, but apparent that his power diminished, and Ragnos needed to be resurrected, which would indicate that flesh > spirit. And I think there was a Sith spirit in KOTOR that's power was diminished as well. And of course, I don't need to go on a limb to say that DE Luke > Mace Windu in Force abilities and power (credit to IKC for that point).



I have to lol on this one.

The reason for that is because you are basing this off what? The fact that Mace has never been shown to even possess an ability that could possibly block a Sith amulet that produces blasts near instantaneously, and destroys temple rock, Sith wyrms, and tears through Massassi, which are Force users (as are Cay and Nomi, whom were affected by Ulic's weak rays of energy compared to Kun's monstrous blasts)?

Or was it that it's even less of a chance for him blocking it when you consider that he's never even seen this. Likewise, when has he even seen Sith magic (mainly what Kun used on Aleema) at work?

In means of a fight, to think that Mace Windu suddenly has something up his sleeve is ridiculous when post-DE Luke didn't. Exar's apparent techniques were enough to overcome DE Luke, even to the point were everything he tried and learned had become useless. As well, the amulet blasts - as I've pointed out - tear through solid materials like they were nothing, they are also gargantuan in size and obviously tremendous in strength. What technique does Mace have that will block this when he had trouble even deflecting Force lightning?

And in the fight, Kun has access to Sith magic, of which Mace Windu has more than likely never even witnessed, let alone defended against or developed a defense. This would indicate that the advantage is Exar's in the Force. There's also the fact he was able to top Odan Urr in the Force, and own him with something as simple as a wave of the hand, who as mentioned, stripped Ancient Sith for breakfast.

Originally posted by Advent
Yes, this would seem absolutely correct, except:

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/4563/kunsenate2oz8.th.jpg
http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/3724/byeodanba1.th.jpg
http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/5162/aleemablastsk6.th.jpg

You were saying? Freezing possibly near millions (hundreds of thousands at the very least) of sentient beings, and controlling them as well. Owning the thousand year old Jedi Master, Odan Urr, who was proficient in the Force, which is noted by his dialogue that he stripped Ancient Sith, he's also proficient in Battle meditation, and has taught the Force stripping technique to Vodo and Nomi both. He also used Sith magic on Aleema, something Mace has never even seen. We also know he possesses the power of Force lightning, as well.
When you consider Joruus C'baoth could do this on a global scale with the freezing, it loses some impact...and considering Odan is shown as useless at the best of times...and considering Kun is there to KILL Aleema and is blasting her with the hand that has the amulet on it...

You mean when Luke was already hit, making anything useless by default? Big deal, we saw Kol skywalker die from being hit by force lightning when we saw him block it before...and Kun's spirit had a lot to draw on that he didn't have in the flesh...Gantoris's life force, the Sith Tomb, the statue, the Golden Globe...

Kun wasn't an ordinary spirit. No other has released themselves that way.



No, he's only able to stand against a guy thalf his age and twice his size who can command the jungle against him, and stop touting Exar's amulet...when was it used against a Jedi master to Mace's caliber? Primitive natives are hardly the end all be all determination...In fact, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say the Jedi who wiped out the Ancients never saw Sith Magic either,

When did the Jedi who wiped out the ancients? Is the beam unblockable? Undeflectable by someone powerful as Mace?

Here's the difference: Exar isn't doubleteaming Mace, drawing on ancient resevoirs of power or hitting him from behind....or using the same technique.

Big deal, Palpatine blasted through Rayf with his bare hand...AT AT blasts tear through flesh and solid stone and can be absorbed or deflected.
Until you take Mace's shatterpoint and Vaapad abilities which'd allow him to see Exar's weakness...is Exar even half as good as Mace with a saber?

And Exar has Sith magic-how effective that was for the people who invented it....but Mace has things Exar's never even heard of but the advantage is Exar's? What'll Exar do when his own dark side power is thrown back in his face?

You mean someone useless as Odan Ur who's crowning achievment is standing around looking lost while his allies are turned into corpses while totally failing to help one way or the other? What were the power levels of these Ancient Sith I have to wonder...maybe, just maybe, Odan in his old age just wasn't up to par?

Originally posted by Advent
Yes, this would seem absolutely correct, except:



Kun froze an X amount of people... Wow... Joruus controlled an entire fleet.. So Joruus>Mace? So owning Odan "I'm an old geezer with 1 force ability" Urr puts him above Mace? Owning Aleema makes him better than Mace? Are you trying to prove Kun can beat Mace in a saber fight or a force fight, because I'm not arguing force abilities, I'm arguing saber abilities.


Sama you've heard my theory on Kun not being a force spirit and instead being like Sidious. Except he was trapped his temple and Sidious drained an entire planet.




I love the whole "omgz Kun has an amulet he wins" logic.




Which ancient sith Sama? Aside from Ragnos, Simus, Sadow and kressh, the rest of the ancient sith were pretty much 100% useless and powerless from what we've seen, so what point does that prove?

Moreover, it took Kun six months to learn all this Sith magic....when Mace learned the Sith were back, I doubt he'd have let himself be unprepared

Originally posted by Lightsnake
When you consider Joruus C'baoth could do this on a global scale with the freezing, it loses some impact...

Except this has nothing to do with the fact that Exar did this without uses of the amulet, which of course, was the entire point. Taking my position about that feat specifically, and twisting it around will do you no good.

And could he control them anyways? Not that it matters, nor loses "impact" (because the casual ease of which Kun does this suggests that it's far from the upper limit of this ability).



Right:

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/2756/odansavesthedayjv0.th.jpg
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/1843/odanmeditationgn0.th.jpg
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/1648/odanpwningbw6.th.jpg

So as it would seem Odan wasn't useless, and Memit Nadill even gives his praise, and it's obvious that his Battle Meditation was needed to win the battle. So, for you to downplay him is ridiculous. Good thing, though, that I have the actual source material and logic to prove that assertion wrong.

Perhaps, Odan as a young Jedi Knight may have been useless (he wasn't), but to assume Odan Urr after a thousand year is? Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Anakin in TPM useless? Didn't he grow more powerful? Why yes, he did. Odan stripped Ancient Sith of the Force after the events of his younger days, he fully mastered his Battle meditation, and spent a great deal of time reading upon the Force. He also was good enough to teach Nomi both of those techniques. To say that Odan is shown as "useless" is ridiculous, because you're talking about Odan Urr...oh say, 985 years ago?

By this logic, Mace Windu must suck because he was beaten by Dooku. But then you take into account, he plainly improved, and there you go. Odan Urr obviously improved, and had more than ample time to do such. A young, inexperienced Jedi Knight < A wise, and proficient Jedi Master.



Right, he's there to kill Aleema, but for some reason or another leaves her alive. Because, as you see on the following page:

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/9308/granddesignkunra8.th.jpg

She's still there! So, killing her must not have been his top priority. And I could say that Yoda must've used his most devastating attack on Sidious in the office, because, after all, he was there to kill him.

Is Kun using the amulet to push back Sylvar or Odan Urr simply because he uses the same hand? I was always under the impression if you were right or left handed - for the most part - you would usually demonstrate your powers with that hand, so long as it was free.

The reasons that would actually lead one to believe that it wasn't an amulet blast is pretty simple:

1.) The apparent form the blast took looked similar in design as the blast Aleema demonstrated one panel prior, it radically differs from the amulet blasts we see earlier on by that it's doesn't look like Goku's Kamehahahahahaha blast, or whatever (by that it's squiggly lines, and red).

2.) If you will, note his dialogue:

"Pretender! Nadd has only taught you the beginnings of Sith power, woman -- but I have learned everything!"

This seems to indicate that he was using the same attack except with more power, so as to show Aleema that what he has learned of Sith magic topples Aleema's own. She also calls him a "pretender", and it would make sense to even prove that he wasn't by using the same type of attack back at Aleema.

3.) The blast didn't even so much as put a burn on Aleema's dress, even if it was toned down - there isn't even a little singe. He was actually mad, as you can obviously tell by his dialogue to Aleema when she claimed him to be a "pretender". No burns? Different design? Dialogue? I'd say it was hardly an amulet blast.

But, of course, the onus is on you to prove that it was in fact an amulet blast.



Except there is a difference between virtually being able to block something, and "everything" you know and have learned being virtually ineffective.

"...Luke called upon the powers that Yoda and Obi-Wan had taught him-but everything he did, every skillful technique, failed utterly."

And it also mentions previously that he was seeking any defensive tactic to work. This would imply that he had no defense for it.



Except Nadd is able to affect the living as well, in a way that would kill them, and his power is still diminished. What the hell are you even talking about?



When has Luke's Emerald Lightning that you've always paraded around use on any strong and capable Force user? Never? Just because it wasn't shown on a "Jedi of Mace's caliber" doesn't mean it's going to be ineffective in some way on someone who's never even heard of it.

What, pray tell, does Mace have up his sleeve that would be able to block monstrous blasts of energy that tear through solid material with enough force of a bomb? I'd say nothing, considering he had a hard enough time blocking Palpatine's lightning, which by all accounts, is hardly on the same level as an amulet blast in that it can't leave giant, gaping holes in beasts, and tear through rock like a bomb.



I'd be inclined to disagree for the fact that they fought Ancient Sith, so it would only be likely to assume that they, in fact, knew about it and defended against it as it was a primary Sith form of attack, and the fact that the Ancient Sith were greater in number as a whole during that time than any other era. The Ancient Sith were heavy on Sith magic and alchemy, later Sith and later eras - specifically the PT era - were not prepared for any of that, and the PT hadn't even seen Sith in a milennia. Speaking of such, the Sith that arrived were only Darth Maul and Darth Tyranus, both of which have never been indicated to use Sith magic, nor train with it.



Probably when they were battling them.



Because somehow Exar Kun was more powerful as a spirit, despite being half mad, and locked away for 4,000 years and Kyp "Greenhorn" Durron is also on par with Kun when being combined with his spirit. Despite the obvious that he was only like, 16 years old and very inexperienced and dramatically less in power than Exar Kun.



Proof that Exar developed a technique as a spirit? It's unlikely considering he learned so much from Sadow (as he apparently has learned "everything", and that's more than likely where he developed the technique from.



When has Mace Windu ever done this? Or even shown the capability to? Oh? Never? And there's also the fact that AT-AT blasts have a completely different property than a Force-based attack that uses energy. I would ask, if Mace is such an uber defending god, why he had such trouble blocking Sidious' lightning? Which, as I've already said, is far less destructive in power, and by apparent looks in ROTS, is weaker than Kun's amulet blast, which does double with each pulse of anger, and is shown to seem instantaneous, by the fact that as soon as it was equiped, he started blasting, and continued to do such every single panel.



Until you take into account that this is completely irrelevant to what I'm arguing about the Force. Are Vaapad and a lightsaber relevant to getting blasted through the chest with an amulet blast? Are they relevant to being pwned with Sith magic? Mainly, though, are they relevant to the Force?

Answer: No.



He's never heard of Vaapad, BFD. Again, Force power does not equal Vaapad, and Shatterpoint wasn't of much use when he got injured by the partially trained Kar Vastor, did it? Plus, his Shatterpoint didn't help much when he was having an immense amount of trouble holding down Sidious' lightning.



Right, what the hell are you talking about again?

I'll tell that to the soldiers that were saved by Odan's meditation.

But, nice way to completely blatantly downplay a character, Lightsnake. If this is what I can expect from you, then consider this debate over. Here's what you're doing, except turned to fit my views:



What's Mace, who got F8CK1NG OWN3D by force lightning going to do? What's Mace, who got F8CKING OWN3D by Count Dooku, going to do? What's Mace, who got F8CKING OWNED by getting his hand chopped off, going to do? What's Mace, who got F8C -- oh wait...



Example of your points.



Because he showed any actually signs of actually being a weakling, right? I mean, he did "draw from the power of the Lightside" and pushed Exar Kun back (possibly tried a technique by the dialogue, in which had no affect much like Aleema's blast).

No one from the TOTJ era was "up to par" with Kun, save for Ulic, who would always still lose though on paper.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Moreover, it took Kun six months to learn all this Sith magic

Irrelevant.



Yes, because it's totally likely that Mace Windu developed some defense for Sith magic. Do prove this. One of the Sith was in the closet, the others? Maul was no Force god, and Dooku didn't know Sith magic. What reasons would Mace want to learn to defend against Sith magic when it hadn't been used or seen for probably a milennia by the majority of the Jedi.

@ Sexy:

I'm not going to waste time responding to what you wrote, because majority of it has nothing to do with what I said whatsoever (or was blatant, schoolyard misrepresentation). I never argued that specific feat of freezing the Senate would win him the match, it's the fact that Blue Hefner had said he only demonstrated powers with an amulet. So, z0mg your first point was completely unneccassary (go figure). And I'm arguing Force fight only, I have no problems conceding that based on what we know Mace would beat Exar in a close saber fight.

And please, never use shit like "z0mg this and that", because I never type like that, nor format my arguments with a one liner. So, there's no reason to do that. Don't act like I'm some Numan or Blak Fox, because you know I'm not.

What do you mean Kun invented his thing to become a spirit. He got it from the teachings of Sadow. He shed his body to roam around the cosmos freely, aka what Palpatine did when he was thrown down the shaft. Nothing even remotely suggests that Kun became a force ghost after death.

What the hell are you talking about? Rather, are you talking to me?

Well did you not ask Lightsnake to prove that Kun didn't create a technique for shedding his body, or DID create a technique? Or am I not reading it correctly or even attempting to?

Is this what you're talking about?

Originally posted by Advent
Proof that Exar developed a technique as a spirit? It's unlikely considering he learned so much from Sadow (as he apparently has learned "everything", and that's more than likely where he developed the technique from.

Because I was asking him for proof that he developed the techniques he used on Luke Skywalker as a spirit, since that seemed to be what he was implying by saying "or the same technique".

Though, I'm not sure if that's what you're even talking about consider I stated that he learned "everything" from Sadow (or majority), and that it was where the technique came from. So, it's either confusion or misunderstanding on your part, or a different quote.

Originally posted by Advent
Except this has nothing to do with the fact that Exar did this without uses of the amulet, which of course, was the entire point. Taking my position about that feat specifically, and twisting it around will do you no good.

And could he control them anyways? Not that it matters, nor loses "impact" (because the casual ease of which Kun does this suggests that it's far from the upper limit of this ability).
I don't recall Joruus batting an eye with difficulty, either...


Yes, ODan was so great he managed to rally them to fight harder and got the Daragons killed, great work, Odan...

I'm sorry, maybe in the actual battle with the Sith?


Who were these Ancient Sith? We never SEE ODan do a damn thing to my recollection, either. Simply numerous screw ups and failure to come through and possibly save some lives. If one thousand year old Jedi Masters are the shit, then T'ra Saa owns all.

Very well, point made



he was there to destroy them, he said it himself! Either Kun forgot his priorities or Aleema mustered a defense of some sort.

when a red blast is firing from the hand with it on it, yes, I get susipcious

The art totally changes in this issue....the lightsabers for exaple...

It'd make more sense to kill her like he was there to do.

Could the amulet possibly have more than one blast or be different against a semi-decent force user?

It's a blast from the hand with the amulet with visible effects when an amulet can fire blasts, obvious enough.


There's a difference between defending against something ebfore and after you are hit.

Or it could be that, y'know, he can defend against an attack on...what, THREE FRONTS when it's already hit him?



Can Nadd call on power he arranged before time?



Kiliks actually, force sensitive enough...and we've seen force lightning used on Force users. Since EL is a heavily upgraded form of the lightside version of FL, there's a basis there. And Exar never ONCE used that amulet blast on a strong force user. Nor, I recall, did it do the Ancient Sith a lick of good.

I dunno, maybe his legs to dodge, the ability to absorb and deflect energy, stuff like that...The amulet's destructive power is lovely, but when you compare it to Mace sidestepping numerous blasts from multiples....just not that impressive.



Yes. A total of five surviving Jedi fought the Ancient Sith-check that, Odan Ur didn't even do that much- in the Hyperspace war, then assaulted the Ancients....so, the Jedi had no knowledge of their abilities and wiped them out completely. So, apparently all that magic and alchemy didn't help much.
Oh, false btw....Sith of Bane's era continued to surface....they just kept the little fact they were Sith to themselves. Dooku tells Quin Vos Sith masters have died in battle.



And only powered by Yavin 4 as well....you read I, Jedi? Exar arranged heavily for the little spirit thing, even for when he was one day gone.



Could be that he was focusing the attack from the temple itself? The text describes dark side energy coming up from temple to attack Luke in conjunction with Kyp and Kun.

Called Shatterpoint...he deflects blasts of advanced fighters and destroys them on his own. And gee, could it maybe be possible Sidious is an extremely strong Sith Lord and a total master with Force lightning and you're attempting to quantify two totally different things considering a blast is just a blast and force lightning is continuously held by the power of Palpatine's hate?

Until Kun uses that on a force sensitive Jedi Master and it helped the Ancients, maybe it's time to stop relying on the amulet


Gee, is seeing the fundamental shatterpoint of Kun's entire ability=the amulets- relevant to a fight? What'll Kun do when Mace realizes them for what they are and hurls them aside with the force or uses force crush to shatter Kun's arms? And since Vaapad is able to form superconducting loops that help repel energy, I can see it.




Vaapad channels inner darkness. And Kun isn't half as dangerous as facing Kar Vastor unarmed in the jungle. and the shatterpoint told him Sidious's shatterpoint. He just didn't realize his faith in anakin was fully justified's all...unless Kun has someone to run in, then that's moot.





Tell it to the soldiers he got killed and the Daragons....I'm sorry, but ndid his BM not inspire the Kirrrek rebels to FIGHT HARDER?

Tell that to Revan, who, thanks to Path of Destruction is now ample ownage for our friend Exar. In fact, Path of destruction really thre Kun's top dog status down a few nods.

Hardly. If it's that easy, how long will it take Mace to access those Sith holocrons forbidden to all but the top masters and learn how to take on Sith?


Because it's totally likely Mace would go into battle unprepared when he was communing and training with Yoda.
Did Maul meet Mace? all Mace knew of Maul is that he killed Qui-Gon. Did Mace know Dooku was a Sith for ten years? They fought...once after Dooku became a Sith. Could it be possible Mace would want to learn about Sith magic against the Sith Master who might possibly wield it?

As a whole, though, I've no issues coneding Exar has the edge in the force, but loses in a flat out saber fight.

Path of destruction severely reduced Exar's status.

and concrete proof that path of destruction reduced exars status?

because revan has force storm lightning? because bane used a blast to shake down a temple? or what? compared to kun potentially freezing millions if not then thousands of senators in coruscant? the fact kun was able to drain the massasi to extinction?

seriously alot of people hate exar kun.

and back to this match, mace would reflect kuns own anger back at him and thus with shatterpoint, kun goes down, i wouldnt really say kun would win cuz i know nothing of his saber skills, about the blurs, i assumed he used it to distract his opponents, common sense to ask why is he shaking his lightsaber and not charging like maul in tpm and also the fact the DS source book stated exar kun mastered lightning, and when you master lightning you go to its highest level which is aparantly the force storm lightning, still exar has never demonstrated even lightning

the reason you hate kun lightsnake is problably because the thread made in febuary and you got your ass handed to you, very very very hard

and ls prove the blast sent to aleema is the amulet? prove it, show an source where it said" exar let a blast to aleema", so? if lightning or drain came out from the same hand does it mean its from the amulet?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
It is pretty obvious that Kun used the same attack on Aleema that she tried on him. It was not an amulet blast
- lightsnake a quote to remind you, i cant prove its not an amulet blast right? neither can you prove it is an amulet blast

ESB shut up, you didn't prove anything

neither did you so pull your finger out of your @$$, did you prove anything? hell no, i prove that kun drained the massasi to extinction, now shut up i prove that kuns drain is a normal drain, not any different, no less

i will say it again "dont waste your time"

you proved nothing, we all read the comics dumbass.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Moreover, it took Kun six months to learn all this Sith magic....when Mace learned the Sith were back, I doubt he'd have let himself be unprepared


Thats why he created Vapaad.

when he was...how old? Long before AOTC

Originally posted by Advent
Yes, this would seem absolutely correct, except:

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/4563/kunsenate2oz8.th.jpg
http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/3724/byeodanba1.th.jpg
http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/5162/aleemablastsk6.th.jpg

You were saying? Freezing possibly near millions (hundreds of thousands at the very least) of sentient beings, and controlling them as well. Owning the thousand year old Jedi Master, Odan Urr, who was proficient in the Force, which is noted by his dialogue that he stripped Ancient Sith, he's also proficient in Battle meditation, and has taught the Force stripping technique to Vodo and Nomi both. He also used Sith magic on Aleema, something Mace has never even seen. We also know he possesses the power of Force lightning, as well.
Note that he had the amulet in all three pages.




I have to lol on this one.

The reason for that is because you are basing this off what? The fact that Mace has never been shown to even possess an ability that could possibly block a Sith amulet that produces blasts near instantaneously, and destroys temple rock, Sith wyrms, and tears through Massassi, which are Force users (as are Cay and Nomi, whom were affected by Ulic's weak rays of energy compared to Kun's monstrous blasts)?
Mace has Vaapad and shatterpoint which is much faster than a blast. You haven't read Shatterpoint have you?


Or was it that it's even less of a chance for him blocking it when you consider that he's never even seen this. Likewise, when has he even seen Sith magic (mainly what Kun used on Aleema) at work?

In means of a fight, to think that Mace Windu suddenly has something up his sleeve is ridiculous when post-DE Luke didn't. Exar's apparent techniques were enough to overcome DE Luke, even to the point were everything he tried and learned had become useless. As well, the amulet blasts - as I've pointed out - tear through solid materials like they were nothing, they are also gargantuan in size and obviously tremendous in strength. What technique does Mace have that will block this when he had trouble even deflecting Force lightning?
He doesn't need to block when he can dodge.


And in the fight, Kun has access to Sith magic, of which Mace Windu has more than likely never even witnessed, let alone defended against or developed a defense. This would indicate that the advantage is Exar's in the Force. There's also the fact he was able to top Odan Urr in the Force, and own him with something as simple as a wave of the hand, who as mentioned, stripped Ancient Sith for breakfast.

Anything you mentioned was all done with the amulet. There's no proof of Kun doing anything significant without the amulet.

number 1, without the amulet kun has frozen millions of senators in coruscant if not hundreds of thousands at least,

secondly the blast are instant and can cause massive damage, kun killed the spirit of freedon nadd really quickly by shoving his hand into nadd.

thirdly the amulet has no limits, its power and blast are instant and its power doubles with every pulse of anger and thus you cant dodge a full scale blast due to its size and power

number 4, dont forget about exars mastery of lightning as the Dark side soucr book claims he has which apparantly is the highest level of lightning, force storm lightning which sidious also has mastered by DE

number 5, mace cant defend against a force drain which exar used to drain the whole planet of yavin 4, not that i know of that mace has any defence to

number 6, this is off topic, this is LIGHTSABER match, so? kun gets defeated due to shatterpoint, kun cannot use the force, no drain no lightning no amulet, mace beats exar kun, END OF STORY

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
you proved nothing, we all read the comics dumbass.
so? iv read them too? and as i said, lying fanboys cant kill exar kun and what have you proved? STOP wasting your time, again i will remind you and i will continue to do so, if you so called waste your time with me then you are an even bigger idiot, you only read the comics, i research on the characters, exar kun, luke, vader , palpatine , bane, and by the way, i smashed your arguements in the last thread about kuns drains

Originally posted by ESB Vader
number 1, without the amulet kun has frozen millions of senators in coruscant if not hundreds of thousands at least,
So could Joruus C'baoth

Big deal, so are blaster bolts.

Prove they're instant and have no limits

Force storm is just the KOTOR version of strong Force lightning, so? Exar knows force lightning, welcome to 'every Dark Lord ever'.

Prove it.
And Exar needed the massive obelisk to drain the massassi, ignoring that?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
So could Joruus C'baoth
that?

so?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Prove they're instant and have no limits

prove to me that they are not instant and have limits
exar immediately blasted the sith wyrm in the temple instanly, want a pic
Originally posted by Lightsnake

Force storm is just the KOTOR version of strong Force lightning, so? Exar knows force lightning, welcome to 'every Dark Lord ever'.
that?
so? still he mastered lightning and sidious did massive damage with his mastered form of lightning in EE, imagine what exar could do

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Prove it.
And Exar needed the massive obelisk to drain the massassi, ignoring that?

what is massive obelisk? maybe on a big scale but a 1 on 1 fight?

http://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kuntempleamuletuo5.jpg

"Just the next slide immediately after it clamps on, and Exar realizes what he can do - it's appears. Ta da! And anyways, you think it was anything but instant? I thought he was in a life or death situation, I doubt he'd be alive even after thirty seconds. That Sith Wyrm would've obliterated him" originaly from advent,
very true i must say, if it took even 5 seconds for the blast to come out , he would have been killed by the wyrm would he not?

lightsnake, what are you trying to prove here

the only alchemic structure exar built was the golden glode to drain the massassi CHILDREN
and prove to me about the obelisk exar used to drain the whole planet, FORCE DRAIN IS FORCE DRAIN

Asking me to prove a negative, logical fallacy. You are saying something, burden of proof is on you to prove it. and Exar immediately blasted the Sith Wyrm? Oh, so his saber magically appeared in between Vodo? It's a comic, meaning the time passing is not shown.

And in EE, Palpatine uses lightning to kill an officer...he uses something different against the Jedi...since Exar is weaker than Palpatine anyways, moot point.

And a massive obelish...maybe the massive spire Exar was chained to. Sith Power objects, remember?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Asking me to prove a negative, logical fallacy. You are saying something, burden of proof is on you to prove it. and Exar immediately blasted the Sith Wyrm? Oh, so his saber magically appeared in between Vodo? It's a comic, meaning the time passing is not shown.
Sith Power objects, remember? read my post again prehaps i just edited it just for you


Originally posted by Lightsnake
And in EE, Palpatine uses lightning to kill an officer...he uses something different against the Jedi...since Exar is weaker than Palpatine anyways, moot point. a thread to reminf you exar is not weaker than palpatine http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=386748&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=1


Originally posted by Lightsnake

And a massive obelish...maybe the massive spire Exar was chained to. Sith Power objects, remember? yes on a big scale, he doesnt need it on a 1v1 match just for a simple drain, so is nihilus using power objects? thus kreia? thus jaden? thus malak?

Get your post right the first time

Exar's been brought down in power and just about every official source agrees Palpatine is the best. What's Exar got that Palpatine doesn't? Palp had a massive collection of Sith amulets, remember?

Now, prove Exar even knew drain. Using an obelisk in a ritual to drain things isn't the same as using Force drain yourself.

Nice misdirection and trying to get me to prove a negative, tsk tsk

Originally posted by Lightsnake
So could Joruus C'baoth

When has he ever frozen millions of people?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Big deal, so are blaster bolts.

Actually blaster shots are slow as hell. bullets travel faster.

Originally posted by Lightsnake

Exar's been brought down in power and just about every official source agrees Palpatine is the best. What's Exar got that Palpatine doesn't? Palp had a massive collection of Sith amulets, remember?
]

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?
s=&threadid=386748&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=1
this to remind you again, ok so palpatine has amulets but did he use them often? no and as we all say, its the authors opinion on palpatine


Originally posted by Lightsnake
Now, prove Exar even knew drain. Using an obelisk in a ritual to drain things isn't the same as using Force drain yourself.

Nice misdirection and trying to get me to prove a negative, tsk tsk
Drain - Same as Heal, except that the user drains the target's Force reserve and/or health to fuel the regenerative process, or to replenish their own strength in the Force. Greater aptitude allows exceptional execution speed and the ability to drain multiple target at once. Very few (such as Exar Kun and Darth Nihilus) have taken this ability to such heights that they can feed on entire worlds at a time; Kun was also able through this power to entrench his soul in the Massassi temple on Yavin IV. Nihilus' entrenchment in the power was so deep that he required constant feeding simply to stay alive. Emperor Palpatine fed off the inhabitants of his retreat world of Byss collectively with his dark side adepts.

read this whole passage

and secondly, i edited, was not trying to prove you a "negative"

Did he ever have a chance to use them? No? Ok, then. How often did Kun use his amulets?

Tsk, tsk...prove Kun had drain or heal, please. Using an obelisk hardly counts

Originally posted by Crimson King
When has he ever frozen millions of people?
Prove there were a million people in the senate when Kun performed his stasis field. And Joruus CONTROLLED an entire fleet..

Dude, all the planetary system in the galaxies would be millions.

this is a much, much earlier Republic...a much smaller one

Originally posted by Blue_Hefner
Note that he had the amulet in all three pages.

Note that you clearly are an idiot. He didn't use the amulet for any one of them. Where's your proof that he used the amulet again? Oh? Your ass? Well, before stepping up to me, I suggest you bring some logic, son because this schoolyard KMC shit will not fly.

Exar did three entire Force feats without the uses of the amulet, so you are, indeed, wrong. I could ask did Exar use the amulet when he Force pushed Sylvar simply because he had it equipped?

Answer: No.

He has his amulet on at all times, this does not mean he uses it at all times. On panel evidence suggests that on multiple occasions, he didn't use his amulet. Your evidence? Uh, none?



Somehow, though, this is completely irrelevant to the Force fight. And where's the proof that Vaapad is faster than an amulet blast? Especially when Vaapad is a lightsaber form. If Exar is ten feet away from Mace, what's quicker? His lightsaber or apparent instantaneous blasts?

I'd also like to ask for your proof that either of Mace Windu's technique are any faster than amulet blasts, especially when they are depicted as the equivalent to DBZ blasts, meaning, of course, instant - only taking a few nanoseconds to reach the opposition depending on how far they are away.

Good to hear, though, that you have none, and you pulled this assertion straight from your ass. I'd also like to say that Mace Windu's Shatterpoint ability didn't even immediately work when he was dueling Sidious, so as for me reading Shatterpoint? Well, let's see: do you read anything?



I'm going to explain this simply:

On. Panel. Evidence. Proves. You. Wrong.

Therefore, I'm inclined to believe

You. Are. Making. This. Up.

So, basically provide proof that he used the amulet in all three. Actually, there's no viable evidence that suggests he did use an amulet blast on Aleema, rather Sith magic. He Force choked or rather, instakilled Odan Urr. Prove that the amulet did that, as the onus is on you to do such. Simply stating it, especially when you are far from a debating senior, will not be sufficient.

As for freezing and controlling the Senate:

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/4888/kunsenate2bo3.th.jpg

"Exar Kun's Sith spell has worked silently, and perfectly" - Omniscient narrator, in other words: all knowing, not fallible third party characters. So, do tell, since when is a Sith spell using the amulet? Oh, that's right: you are plainly making shit up.

Lying will not help your argument, Hefner.

One thing you fail to consider though: Exar has been shown to totally scorn amulet use in favor for his saber.

Except I'm not considering it because I plainly do not care. I'm not even arguing Exar would win in an all out fight. Only two things:

1.) Exar did several feats without the uses of his amulet, which is obvious enough.

2.) The Force advantage is Exar's, and that he'd win if it came down to a Force battle.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f122/blaxican_templar/tapeta009.jpg

Fair enough. All out, we have evidence of Exar showing his saber preference

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f122/blaxican_templar/Windu-2-2.jpg

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Did he ever have a chance to use them? No? Ok, then. How often did Kun use his amulets?

Tsk, tsk...prove Kun had drain or heal, please. Using an obelisk hardly counts

because there was no threat big enough to use it to? and wiki wookie and the dark side source book says exar has drain, now shut up prehaps read the passage again, lying fanboys cant kill exar kun and PROVE that kun used the obelisk to drain the massassi, just because he got tied up there? o so then that must mean nihilus ship was the one who drained katarr,

and a much smaller republic? prove it again

did i say kun has heal? dont feed me with words. and ask yourself this, did palpatine use drain enough? same with exar, both palpatine and exar hardly use drain,

no threat? Unlike say....the Jedi attacking him? and I dont' care about Wiki and the DSB doesn't say anything. Btw, he used an obelisk...remember 'Sith power objects unleashed!'

K? K.

Originally posted by Advent


Somehow, though, this is completely irrelevant to the Force fight. And where's the proof that Vaapad is faster than an amulet blast? Especially when Vaapad is a lightsaber form. If Exar is ten feet away from Mace, what's quicker? His lightsaber or apparent instantaneous blasts?

I'd also like to ask for your proof that either of Mace Windu's technique are any faster than amulet blasts, especially when they are depicted as the equivalent to DBZ blasts, meaning, of course, instant - only taking a few nanoseconds to reach the opposition depending on how far they are away.

Good to hear, though, that you have none, and you pulled this assertion straight from your ass. I'd also like to say that Mace Windu's Shatterpoint ability didn't even immediately work when he was dueling Sidious, so as for me reading Shatterpoint? Well, let's see: do you read anything?

Vaapad is a state of mind, not a lightsaber form. If you read ROTS, you would have read the part where it says that.

Think about though, Jedi and Sith could take MUCH more punishment back in the day. I'm a noob I know but hear me out. Lightning and drain had the same effectiveness but the Jedi and Sith were resilient enough to break the hold and continue the fight. So Mace won't have much resistence to drain(the New Sith Wars occured a millenia before his time and by then they thought the Sith were extinct(except for a few pathetic Dark Jedi)they had Little reason to re-develop resistance to such techniques.


Mace probably has never seen drain life or death field so he would have little to no defence agaist it .

Kun didn't even know. He just read Naga Sadow's book and followed directions.

I may be wrong about this next part, but didn't Kar use drain on some girl in Shatterpoint?

IDK but that would be a moot-point anyways huh?

Oh, right a DARK LORD OF THE SITH(Who was Anoited by Ragnos himself) is just a good scholar. And that thing he did to the Massasi to preserve his life was a fluke.smartass

Well, you said Mace never saw force drain. I just thought Kar did it in Shatterpoint.

doesn't mean mace saw it though

He described it in his journal.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
no threat? Unlike say....the Jedi attacking him? and I dont' care about Wiki and the DSB doesn't say anything. Btw, he used an obelisk...remember 'Sith power objects unleashed!'

K? K.

show me a damm source where he said the obelisk was the source of his drain, so what? nihilus ship drained katar because "the power was unleashed from there" is it? and the jedi attacking him? they were in ships , hundreds of them, how is he suppose to ddrain them, he drained the massasi for a purpose, to release his spirit, end of story i think thats enough, nihilus drained to feed himself, palpatine drained to feed his spirit, and kun to release his spirit, there, i think that is good enough

How about the comic? "Sith power objects unleashed!" And it shows the energy flying into the obelisk. And Palpatine had all the Massassi...the Terentateks, the battle-hydras, plus a sizeable brotherhood...
Running away there isn't very Sith-like

sith power objects to bring it to a much bigger scale? again not concrete enough. prove it, try again

and o yea? running away? could palpatine take on the whole jedi council? i think not, if so, prove it

and palpatine begging the ancient sith to heal his clone? that also is not sith like

Ok, my side has a smattering of evidence...and Palpatine didn't have a large army of Massassi, Sith and monsters, did he?

And when did Palpatine 'beg?' There was no begging

ok no begging but if he was so powerful then why couldnt he save his own clone? why did he have to ask the ancient sith then, "Ask" ok? not beg, didnt he mastered every technique in the force as so you say.
then again why did he have to goto korriban

Noone could save the damn clone, the Ancients said that themselves. "It has yielded to the Necrosis, it cannot be saved."

still he went to look for help and not depending on himself, he thought the ancients could, he knows that the ancients have a way of healing which he did not know, neither did he know the clone cant be saved. so that proves another thing, he didnt master all techniques

He thought they did, he was desperate...he thought they might have another technique of healing and whaddya know- they didn't!

Palpatine is not sane in EE, the clone madness effects his mind, are you NOT seeing this? Considering there was no technique to save the clone, what he thought or didn't think they had makes no difference

they did! but the fact is not for his clone! because he is decaying. he thought they did, which they did, but they admitted they couldnt save his clone., again he knew everything about the ancients, he is smart, he does his work well, he knew the ancients had healing powers he did not, but it turns out they couldnt save his body as he thought they could,
dingaling or he could have drained other force users, his clones degenaration is similar to nihilus, then why didnt he drain any1 to sustain his body till he could make new clones?

and lightsnake lets stop argueing, none of us will agree to each others arguements, lets leave it as it is.

and does the palpatine in the earlier part of EE look the same as in DE? first time i saw the clone in colour

The Ancients on Korriban said they couldn't save his clone. At this point he is desperate, dying and his mind is decaying slowly . Fact remains: The Ancients DID NTO have a way to save the clone

And no, just because you're getting your opinions destroyed is no reason to leave. You've got me annoyed.

my opinions destroyed? um no its the other way around, he KNEW the ancients had a way of healing , but he didnt know it couldnt save his clone, did you see the word healing?

and you cant asnwer why he couldnt drain others just to sustain himself longer, that proves one thing, he has techniques, many of them, and doesnt use them

a kuns drain? into the pillar? doesnt prove the drain came from there, it was used to release his spirit, a different purpose from nihilus.

and the old essential guide to characters CONFIRMS this, they said as a spirit, there were no more massasi to feed his waning power, that was the time of luke, again your point falls,

They said themselves they couldn't save the clone, period, there's nothing but your assumption here.

For the last F'ing time, they said the clone COULD NOT BE SAVED.

And what are you blathering about? Kun prepared for dhis time as a spirit...Golden Globe? Massassi spirits right therE?

dammit for the last time yes i know, i dont think you understand what im trying to say, but fuk it, im tired of trying to show it to you since you dont understand what im trying to say, point is I KNOW WHAT UR SAYING but you dont know what i have been saying

sigh i said as a spirit he drained the massasi, the golden globe drains the massasi children or so i heard.

palpatine could have extended his life WITH DRAIN, nihilus is like palpatine, HE is also dieing, and he DRAINED force sensitives to stay alive, i dont see why palpatine could drain other users to sustain his living till he could find the right body EVEN IF IT CANT BE SAVED IT CAN BE EXTENDED already his doctor said so by staying calm.