Revan/Malak vs. Sidious/Vader

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Darth Kreiger
Revan/Malak prior to Malak's betrayal

Sidious/Vader from ROTS

Setting is the Emperor's Throne Room
The Prize- The Galaxy

Quinlan_Vos
Let's see, after Bane's novel and what DS has told us, I would say Revan is maybe a bit better than Sidious. Malak is believed to be slightly weaker than Dooku, who is weaker than Vader. However, I would Malak can stalll Vader long enough for Revan to defeat Sidious. Vader then gets pwned.

Darth Subjekt
as fanbot as it is...Sidous and Vader...theyre better. That and i dont that much about Malak and Revan...i'll admit it. smile

zephiel7
From ROTS?

Revan and Malak

Janus Marius
Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
Let's see, after Bane's novel and what DS has told us, I would say Revan is maybe a bit better than Sidious. Malak is believed to be slightly weaker than Dooku, who is weaker than Vader. However, I would Malak can stalll Vader long enough for Revan to defeat Sidious. Vader then gets pwned.

Revan is likely a match for RotS Sidious if the Bane novel is to be taken into consideration. However, Malak himself was able to tool numerous experienced Jedi in combat with the Force alone, not considering his reputation for being a legendary combatant even before he became a dark lord. If you read his profile on the official website, Malak fought on the frontlines in most conflicts and was renowned throughout the Jedi Order before he ever left the safety of his Enclave to fight. RotS Vader can barely contend with Obi-Wan, despite having full rage and the Dark Side behind him.

So unless you think Malak would be hard-pressed to fight Obi-Wan (Doubtful, since Malak was able to withstand a fully-powered Revan and friends not a year after Revan's capture) or that Malak would be easily tooled by someone who pays half-off at the tanning salon because he's limbless, this match goes easily to Revan and Malak.

Darth Kreiger
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Revan is likely a match for RotS Sidious if the Bane novel is to be taken into consideration. However, Malak himself was able to tool numerous experienced Jedi in combat with the Force alone, not considering his reputation for being a legendary combatant even before he became a dark lord. If you read his profile on the official website, Malak fought on the frontlines in most conflicts and was renowned throughout the Jedi Order before he ever left the safety of his Enclave to fight. RotS Vader can barely contend with Obi-Wan, despite having full rage and the Dark Side behind him.

So unless you think Malak would be hard-pressed to fight Obi-Wan (Doubtful, since Malak was able to withstand a fully-powered Revan and friends not a year after Revan's capture) or that Malak would be easily tooled by someone who pays half-off at the tanning salon because he's limbless, this match goes easily to Revan and Malak.


Anakin didn't use Force Powers however, the A>B>C factor, doesn't really work, as proven, Dooku>ObiWan, Anakin>Dooku, Obi-Wan>Anakin

zephiel7
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Revan is likely a match for RotS Sidious if the Bane novel is to be taken into consideration. However, Malak himself was able to tool numerous experienced Jedi in combat with the Force alone, not considering his reputation for being a legendary combatant even before he became a dark lord. If you read his profile on the official website, Malak fought on the frontlines in most conflicts and was renowned throughout the Jedi Order before he ever left the safety of his Enclave to fight. RotS Vader can barely contend with Obi-Wan, despite having full rage and the Dark Side behind him.

So unless you think Malak would be hard-pressed to fight Obi-Wan (Doubtful, since Malak was able to withstand a fully-powered Revan and friends not a year after Revan's capture) or that Malak would be easily tooled by someone who pays half-off at the tanning salon because he's limbless, this match goes easily to Revan and Malak.

Well, what do you know, Janus is back!

Janus Marius
Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
Anakin didn't use Force Powers however, the A>B>C factor, doesn't really work, as proven, Dooku>ObiWan, Anakin>Dooku, Obi-Wan>Anakin

1. You cannot substantiate Anakin's Force mastery as being higher than Revan's or Malak's. Indeed, all on-panel evidence points to the two Sith Lords as being clearly superior in Force Talents than Sidious, let alone Anakin.

2. I know the old KMC "A>B>C" jab; it's amazingly cute to see in motion. However, you neglect to address the fact that Obi-Wan Kenobi was far from being the best swordsman ever to raise a blade to a Sith, and yet Anakin in his highest point in the entire series, was unable to best him. This is clear evidence that Obi-Wan was above Anakin in overall fighting capability, and that anyone with a levelhead and a good solid style can undo Anakin's blind rage. Revan AND Malak both possess level heads in combat, on top of impressive Force powers and infamous fighting capability. They far outclass Obi-Wan and Dooku, who could be said to be just above Anakin's level in sword mastery.

Quinlan_Vos
Well Janus, I must say you were right about Revan being uber even though it was monthes before the Bane book came out. Kudos to you!

darthsith19
Wow, Revan alone... from what we've heard recently he could be second strongest Sith behind DE Sidious, so he alone would stand a chance. But with Malak, Malak is about even with Vader and Revan could definately beat ROTS Sidious, pretty easily.

Lightsnake
Revan second strongest? Um, yeah, no. Malak has what going for him exactly? 'Tooled experienced Jedi?' Wow, that may put him on par with Vader-just maybe.

And where is this 'on-panel evidence' of them being superior to Sidious and Vader, I'm very curious. I don't recall them creating planetwide storms. Revan's done what exactly? Oh, right, he got a few quotes from an un-universe source and Bane's PoV.

Not seeing it.

Darth Sexy
I would think Vader gets tooled by Revan or beat eventually by Malak. Sidious could probably beat Malak in a saber fight but not Revan. I would still go with Revan/Malak.

Lightsnake
Not revan? You get this from where? Advent's quite well shown that Anakin would comfortably beat Malak. And with the force, the KOTOR Sith are wiped out

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Not revan? You get this from where? Advent's quite well shown that Anakin would comfortably beat Malak. And with the force, the KOTOR Sith are wiped out

No she didn't. I remember her arguing that there's very little evidence of Malak's superiority. Nothing says Anakin could beat Malak.

Lightsnake
Considering her view was quite Anti-Malak there and pro-anakin...

Darth Sexy
Which is it lightsnake, was her view anti Malak or was her view showing Anakin could beat Malak? I remember it was neither, it was her trying to explain Malak was more of an unknown.

Lightsnake
....I think 'Anti-Malak' and 'Pro-anakin' was rather self-explanatory
Either way, even if acknowledge Dooku as Malak's equal, that grants Anakin the edge still.

Darth Kreiger
I made it fairer, Malak is likely less than Anakin, he did nothing impressive, Revan apparently knows things Sidious wouldn't hope of knowing, so I say, go from there, Revan DID know Force Storm, likely better than Sidious'.

Remember the setting is the Emperor's Throne Room

Lightsnake
Wouldn't hope of knowing? Give me a break, does noone bother to read Star Wars?
Nope, Palpatine couldn't know things with several holocrons, probably Revan's own Holocron and communions with the Ancient Sith themselves, no...

darthsith19
Well, he invented tons of Force Powers that were considered to dangerous for even true Sith Master to use. So if he's not second then may I ask who is?

Lightsnake
Invented? The thought Bomb was suicidal by nature and apparently an ancient Sith ritual, rather than just a technique....Revan as a Jedi was apparently stronger than Revan as a Sith, and we know Yoda was above him there thanks to the rOTs novelization

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Wouldn't hope of knowing? Give me a break, does noone bother to read Star Wars?
Nope, Palpatine couldn't know things with several holocrons, probably Revan's own Holocron and communions with the Ancient Sith themselves, no...

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Invented? The thought Bomb was suicidal by nature and apparently an ancient Sith ritual, rather than just a technique....Revan as a Jedi was apparently stronger than Revan as a Sith, and we know Yoda was above him there thanks to the rOTs novelization

Does the novelization call Yoda the strongest Jedi? If so where? And Revan was probably the #2 sith and top 5 Jedi..

darthsith19
Yes, and where does it say Revan as a Jedi > Revan as a Sith?

Lightsnake
Strongest Foe the Darkness had ever known?
Considering fighting evil is in the Jedi job description...

Darth Subjekt
in all fairness in GL explaining EP3, he says that at the time of ROTS, Anakin is the most powerful, he just doesn't have that much experience. So with that said, it could mean that he has more power than Yoda. Im talking Raw power, not refined and attuned, which some of you might say doesn't mean anything then, but it shows that Yoda isnt the absolute best Jedi ever. Although I'm not saying that Revan is automatically above him. You have to think though, fights in the movies are just plain different then fights in EU. EU isnt as bound by certain restrictions as the movies are. Like if Anakin just started flying around like Neo does, we'd be like thats effin stupid, but if someone flies in the EU, we would most likely be like, wow-he's uber powerful. See what I mean? I dunno it makes sense to me, lol...just dont know if i typed out my thoughts well enough.

Darth Kreiger
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
in all fairness in GL explaining EP3, he says that at the time of ROTS, Anakin is the most powerful, he just doesn't have that much experience. So with that said, it could mean that he has more power than Yoda. Im talking Raw power, not refined and attuned, which some of you might say doesn't mean anything then, but it shows that Yoda isnt the absolute best Jedi ever. Although I'm not saying that Revan is automatically above him. You have to think though, fights in the movies are just plain different then fights in EU. EU isnt as bound by certain restrictions as the movies are. Like if Anakin just started flying around like Neo does, we'd be like thats effin stupid, but if someone flies in the EU, we would most likely be like, wow-he's uber powerful. See what I mean? I dunno it makes sense to me, lol...just dont know if i typed out my thoughts well enough.

No no, that would be pretty stupid too

zephiel7
Originally posted by Lightsnake
....I think 'Anti-Malak' and 'Pro-anakin' was rather self-explanatory
Either way, even if acknowledge Dooku as Malak's equal, that grants Anakin the edge still.

You assume because Anakin is > Dooku, then Anakin > Malak? I don't agree due to the facts presented below:


1) The fundamental reason Anakin beat Dooku is because his Djem So style (that he is apparently focused on) works well against Makashi (Dooku's form). The ROTS novelization mentioned something about Makashi not having enough kinetic energy to stand against the other style. Since Malak does not use Makashi (he has his own unique lightsaber form incorporating a larger saber) then I doubt Anakin will win against the second best duelist of KOTOR.

2) With the "advent" (no pun intended Motoko) of POD we learn how much the two Sith really learned about ancient Sith magic. I don't think Anakin is well trained in the arts of defending against such abilities.

For more go to the ROTS Anakin versus Darth Malak thread. I have let down some proofs that work out Darth Malak being at least on par with ROTS Anakin.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Invented? The thought Bomb was suicidal by nature and apparently an ancient Sith ritual, rather than just a technique....Revan as a Jedi was apparently stronger than Revan as a Sith, and we know Yoda was above him there thanks to the rOTs novelization

I'd say that information is retconned (and should be) thanks to PoD. Revan before that was believed to know zero techniques in sith magic, but now we have first hand proof of his devastating abilities.

Didn't you agree that Revan is stronger than ROTS Sids, but not the DE incarnation? I agree that Sidious is the strongest Sith Lord (due to his unique force storm ability) but I don't think he achieved that title by ROTS.

Lightsnake
1. Makashi is specifically designed to counter saber to saber combat. Anakin using his form to exploit a weakness in no way makes
And Malak 'has his own unique style?' Does everyone whose style can't be placed use a unique style? Seems Malak uses Makashi actually...one handed, pretty elegant if you watch his attacks..
and ok, he used a long saber, SO? Yoda used a short one, big freaking deal.
And when did Malak use ancient Sith magic against Revan when it would've, y'know, saved his ass? Anakin was only trained in a time when they realized the Sith were back, YEAH he'd be trained against that.
Malak has done absolutely nothing to put him in an elite corps on one of the best duelists on the PT era

2. Nope, the info wasn't retconned. Revan knew it, where'd he get it from? And the Thought Bomb is still a RITUAL....and suicidal.
And apparently LFL seems to think Palpatine was the strongest by ROTs thanks to approving the NEC...and no, I never called Revan stronger than Palpatine. by TPM, Palpatine is already stronger than Bane according to the DSB...strongest Sith in over a millenia and the strongest Bane's order produced.

And we also have proof of Palpatine's devastating abilities by ROTS...he learned diorectly from the Ancients, recall

Darth Kreiger
Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Makashi is specifically designed to counter saber to saber combat. Anakin using his form to exploit a weakness in no way makes
And Malak 'has his own unique style?' Does everyone whose style can't be placed use a unique style? Seems Malak uses Makashi actually...one handed, pretty elegant if you watch his attacks..
and ok, he used a long saber, SO? Yoda used a short one, big freaking deal.
And when did Malak use ancient Sith magic against Revan when it would've, y'know, saved his ass? Anakin was only trained in a time when they realized the Sith were back, YEAH he'd be trained against that.
Malak has done absolutely nothing to put him in an elite corps on one of the best duelists on the PT era

I wasn't aware Malak knew much of the Dark Side, hence why he never tried to kill Revan himself

zephiel7
For most, but not all.

Facts state that this dueling form is utterly useless against Djem So.




Actually if we had to hazard a guess, I would have to say some strange mixture of Djem So and Ataru. Ataru because in his animations he seems to being leaping when he does swipes. Djem So because according to PoD, those of greater physical builds are taught to use Djem So to maximize their assets.



I wasn't making a big deal about it... I was just stating that if anything his style is unique, and since it isn't specifically Makashi, Anakin's Djem So does not have the same advantage as it had with Dooku.

I was making an assumption that Revan taught his apprentice some of the magics that he learned.



Proof that he was? Hell, Anakin never fought anyone who used Sith magics. Dooku? Force ligthning and lightsaber all the way baby! Assaj Ventress? No.

-He was stated to be the second best duelist of his time (aside from Revan.)
-Defeated the best duelist of his order

Lightsnake
If that were true, they'd send Agen Kolar after Dooku and be done with it. The form doesn't equal victory.

Dooku leaps too, so? And Mace used Juyo and was rather physical. Anakin's skill gives him the advantage not the form.

And it's not an equal assumption Anakin would know to counter Sith magic since he was trained when the Jedi knew they were back? And
Dooku was the second top Dark side-probably Jedi- duelist of his time and defeated numerous other strong opponents, including Mace.
So?

Advent
Originally posted by zephiel7
Facts state that this dueling form is utterly useless against Djem So.

Actually, if you'd get your facts straight instead of turning them upside down to fit your argument, then you'd realize that Dooku's Makashi didn't generate enough kinetic energy to meet Djem So head-on. This isn't to say that Dooku cannot tool Djem So users, or that it makes the form "utterly useless" (considering Makashi doesn't even meet the opposition head-on for the most part).

We know that Sora Bulq is a Vaapad practitioner and master - a fine one at that. Yet Dooku beat the bloody shit out of Sora while defending against Tholme as well. That alone has no relevance until you bring up what the Star Wars Insider, Issue 62 article on lightsaber forms says about Vaapad:

"Form VII employs bold, direct movements, more open and kinetic than Form V but not so elaborate in appearance as Form IV."

-- Star Wars Insider, Issue 62.

This would indicate that Makashi is, indeed, not utterly useless, but may produce a minor setback, because as noted, Dooku tooled Sora:

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/9473/sorapwnedyc7.th.jpg

Who seems to use the form that generates more kinetic energy than Djem So. Plus, Makashi does not usually meet another lightsaber form "head-on", so to speak. They usually counter with parries, ripostes, etc. to expend less energy, and then pwn the opposition when they tire out. Unless, of course, the form is being wielded by an utter joke.

By this we can gauge that Anakin's superior skill (and determination really) is above that of Dooku's. The form hardly was the problem, it was the fact Anakin was "all over him".

Darth Kreiger
Advent with your ultimate skills of research, please tell us who wins

zephiel7
By tooling Sora you mean the fact that Sora Bulq lost primarily because he was hit head on with a blast of lightning that he never learned to defend against? Are we also ignoring that Bulq has never seen Dooku's style of fighting, unlike Skywalker who knew Dooku's style, and trained against it. And are we also excluding that Dooku had no idea to prepare for whatever form Anakin preferred, giving the former the clear advantage in said battle scenario.

Anakin knew Dooku's technique and prepared Djem So specifically for him. His battle plan was to force Dooku into a head on battle. Dooku on the other hand had NO information against his opponent, and was unprepared for said attack plan. Against Malak, he is not exactly facing a Makashi user, nor is he facing an opponent he knows the attack technique of. If he tries his head on tactics, he is facing an individual of even greater physical strength.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
I'm out for now, I will get back to you guys in two or so days, midterms call unfortunately. sad

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Strongest Foe the Darkness had ever known?
Considering fighting evil is in the Jedi job description...

How in the world does that make him more powerful than Revan as a Jedi, much less call him the most powerful Jedi as of ROTS?

Lightsnake
Oh, gee....maybe because 'enemies of darkness' are in the Jedi job description?

Unless you wanna tall me Revan wasn't a foe of the darkness...he only killed the Dark Lord of the Sith

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
How in the world does that make him more powerful than Revan as a Jedi, much less call him the most powerful Jedi as of ROTS?


oooh I misread the point. Ok...Yet Revan still showed more than Yoda

Lightsnake
Since when? Yoda can lift the temple of Ilum, destroy a droid army totally on his own, defeat the Bpfasshi Dark Jedi and their master who was so powerful he left a great taint on Dagobah....which Yoda personally contained to the cave...outmatch three masters, including Depa Billaba, the Vaapad mistress...

Darth Sexy
Did Yoda know the thought bomb, the force storm, or the force drain?

zephiel7
Well after PoD blowing up massive temples seems to be in the job description of Revan/Bane... Revan also has force storm going for him (not as good as DE Sids though)

If as Jedi, he gets stronger, then I am pretty sure PoD is retconning some things...

---Now I am really out. later stick out tongue

Lightsnake
....I don't see Yoda really taking the time to learn Dark Side techniques...

Remember, the Thought Bomb is a ritual and a suicidal one, so noone in their right mind will be using it in a fight...let alone be able to.

However, would Yoda, in 900 years of fighting the Dark Side, which included encounters with Sith of Bane's order....I don't see those abilities making much a difference to the guy who can muster a defend to anything the DS can muster.


PoD cannot retcon a G-canon source

Advent
Originally posted by zephiel7
By tooling Sora we are excluding the fact that Sora Bulq was hit head on with a blast of lightning that he never learned to defend against?

Obviously you need to get the Hubble Space Telescope because the panel before that Dooku slices Sora and his saber, hence "tooling":

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/6560/blindbatgq9.th.jpg

He also was beating the shit out of them on the page prior when both Tholme and Sora were attacking. Toying with them would've been a better choice. You stated that Makashi is "utterly useless" against Djem So. This is incorrect. It cannot meet Djem So head on, but useless? Bullshit as proven by the more kinetic (which is the apparent weakness) form of Vaapad.

I'd also like to call into question when you think that Obi-Wan Kenobi was trained to defend against Force lightning?



How the hell do you know? Are you Sora Bulq? Hey Sora, when was Dooku stated to be the only practitioner of Makashi? Where's the proof for this assertion? Not that it even matters.



Where's the proof for this assertion? From what Mace states, Anakin switched to Djem So because of his emotions, and how well it suits him as he is typically the aggressor.

Prove up. Where's it say Anakin tailored his form specifically for Makashi? Better yet, where's the logic in that? He prepared to face Dooku again, except he didn't even know if he would ever combat him again? As well, he's only faced Dooku once. He hardly "knew" Dooku's style, because as far as I know, he doesn't spend years reading on Makashi or even know how to use it to its fullest.



Right. Aside from the fact that Dooku knew Anakin was using Djem So before he even took out Obi-Wan? I mean, didn't he teach Grievous like, almost every form? If he knows "every form", then by all means, he should know how to counter them, or at least, modify his movements to suit the situation. The narration also states he knows near every weakness of Ataru considering he taught it to Qui-Gon, and it's logical to assume he knows some weaknessrd of Djem So at the very least, as he also knew enough that he would capitalize on a "weakness" of Djem So:

"...the weakness of Djem So was its lack of mobility - that slapped Skywalker's boot sharply enough to throw the young Jedi off balance, giving Dooku the opportunity to leap away."

By the pure fact that Dooku is a superb duelist, and what is above - it would indicate that Dooku didn't need years to prepare to face Anakin nor Djem So. So, what are you even trying to get across? (Because *hint* it's not working).



Prove that assertion. Where does it ever say that Anakin tailored his Djem So to combat Makashi when logically speaking, that makes no sense because:

1.) he wouldn't even know when or if he'd fight Count Dooku again after AOTC.
2.) his form would thus be lacking against other forms.

Overall, even if there's a quote - it makes zero sense.



What is he facing then? What form does Malak use? Do you even know? Oh? You don't? Okay, so I'm arguing with pure speculation. It's always a wonder to know that you can take a speculated - basically unknown - form and claim that it's "not exactly" Makashi, even more when you said that he doesn't use Makashi, as if it's fact.

(Hint: because it's not.)



Just because Malak wears a skintight suit doesn't mean he's stronger than Anakin. Even so, it's not the fact that he needs to overcome them with brute strength, it's skill.

Not that I ever care, because this is irrelevant to what I'm arguing. So, if you want to address Darth "z0mg l33tsauce" Malak, make sure you hold the Shift key and press 2, followed by typing someone else's name, because frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn (not to be rude, just saying).

Much of this could've been avoided had you actually posted one quote, as that is all that's really a requirement in a way.

zephiel7
You misunderstand my position...

I was not stating that Anakin < Dooku.

I was stating because Anakin>Dooku does not mean he is > Malak as well.

There are several factors in Anakin's battle against Dooku, when put into context, don't apply to a one on one arena match against Malak.

When I am a little less busy, I will lay out the passage where Anakin (and Kenobi) were battling against Dooku, and show how it does not apply to a one on one battle against Malak.

ESB Vader
is this presuit vader or the suit vader.

and i dont know about malaks forms, but im sure vader could blow him back and use his sorroundings to kill malak which he always does to his enemies

Advent
Originally posted by zephiel7
You misunderstand my position...

I was not stating that Anakin < Dooku.

I was stating because Anakin>Dooku does not mean he is > Malak as well.

And you must misunderstand mine as well. I'm stating that Makashi isn't "utterly useless" against Djem So. Unless, of course, I've misunderstood that, in which case this argument was unnecessary.



You can do that, as long as you are not referring it to me, because I don't care. I was out to prove the statement that Makashi is useless against Djem So isn't true, that is all.

And I apologize if I was overly rude or uncivil in my past post. I'm a born again Buddhist now (not that it has anything to do with being rude).

zephiel7
Ah, when I stated utterly useless it wasn't the complete truth. How do you Americans call it? Ah yes, it was...an embellishment.

Darth Kreiger
So who wins? big grin


It's fair to assume Malak uses Makashi, as it was a "goal" for Sith Lords

Darth Sexiest
Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
Let's see, after Bane's novel and what DS has told us, I would say Revan is maybe a bit better than Sidious. Malak is believed to be slightly weaker than Dooku, who is weaker than Vader. However, I would Malak can stalll Vader long enough for Revan to defeat Sidious. Vader then gets pwned.


Wrong. Darth Revan is significantly stronger than Sidious.
And Malak and Dooku are tied in the catagory of Force and lightsaber weilding.

I'd say If this is Vader before he gets in the Suit, he manages to beat Malak, but not by too much.

Revan manages to defeat Sidious.

Then its Anakin VS Revan.

Revan wins.

Lightsnake
Revan singificantly stronger than Sidious?
Bullshit.

Darth Sexiest
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Revan singificantly stronger than Sidious?
Bullshit.


Lol...relax. I didn't mean stronger by much. stick out tongue

Darth Kreiger
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Revan singificantly stronger than Sidious?
Bullshit.

According to people who read the Bane novel, Yes, yes he is

Darth Sexiest
Revan would win, but not comfortably, not at all...

ESB Vader
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Revan singificantly stronger than Sidious?
Bullshit.

no, sidious stronger than revan, ROTS DE or what ever sidious is smarter and more deadly

Darth Kreiger
Originally posted by ESB Vader
no, sidious stronger than revan, ROTS DE or what ever sidious is smarter and more deadly

Umm no, Revan was a Genius, everything he did was Planned, Sidious just can make Plans 1000 years in Advance and somehow make them work. Deadly Factor, Revan wins, he knew much more than Sidious in terms of Force, and his Saber skills must be up to Par

Lightsnake
Really now, do prove up...Palpatine had....what, everything Revan did thanks to the holocrons? And access to the spirits og the Ancients themselves?

You have something to back this up? Everything Sidious did wasn't planned? There's this movie called Star Wars, now...

ESB Vader
revan wins? how? raw power? hell no sidious would kill revan with his mastery of lightning, revan takes time to plan, sidious knows what to do immeadiately, proven in ROTS battle of sid vs yoda

Darth Sexiest
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Really now, do prove up...Palpatine had....what, everything Revan did thanks to the holocrons? And access to the spirits og the Ancients themselves?

You have something to back this up? Everything Sidious did wasn't planned? There's this movie called Star Wars, now...


Um...Lightsnake, Hate to say....but this is before DE....

Plus Revan would eventually blast Sidious to bits with his Force Storm.

Or just barely beat him in Lightsaber combat.

ESB Vader
for the last time its force storm lightning, only palpatine did the original force storm which is the wormhole

Darth Sexiest
What?

What the heck are you talking about? eer

Darth Sexiest
The wormhole?

Did I miss somthing?

ESB Vader
revans force storm is upgraded from lightning, its lightning storm, palpatines force storm is different and far more destructive, its a worm hole which sucks in everything and sends them to oblivion

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Darth Sexiest
Um...Lightsnake, Hate to say....but this is before DE....

Plus Revan would eventually blast Sidious to bits with his Force Storm.

Or just barely beat him in Lightsaber combat.

Hate to say it, but....Palpatine's already extremely strong by ROTS.

And 'just barely' beat him in saber combat? You get Revan's saber abilities from...where? And blasts him to bits with his force storm? Palpatine, AKA, master of force lightning who's learned from the Ancients?

Darth Sexiest
Hmm...Your point is...

Lightsnake
My point is, I really doubt someone with that pedigree knows less about the Force than Revan

Darth Sexiest
No, No...I was thinking in my head...deciding about your point...
I wasen't trying to be rude. ^_^'

Darth Sexiest
Im still a'thinkin...

Darth Kreiger
Originally posted by ESB Vader
revans force storm is upgraded from lightning, its lightning storm, palpatines force storm is different and far more destructive, its a worm hole which sucks in everything and sends them to oblivion

Actually Revan's Force Storm is Bane's Force Storm which I'm pretty sure is Palpatine's Force Storm

Darth Sexy
Or not? Palpatine created his force storm by DE, which was beyond any force storm created by the ancients

Darth Sexiest
This is before DE, So Revan wins.

Lightsnake
Except Palpatine is still mega-powerful and has been learning from the ancients themselves, so Revan has nothing on Palpatine

Darth Kreiger
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Except Palpatine is still mega-powerful and has been learning from the ancients themselves, so Revan has nothing on Palpatine

Umm what? No he wasn't, he learned from Plagueis, that's it. Revan CREATED most of those Force Powers, and from then on it was passed down.

Lightsnake
Um, no...Revan learned most from Ancient times...Palpatine had holocrons to learn from, Plagueis and he routinely summoned the spirits of the Ancients for a little extra

Darth Subjekt
it doesnt hurt that Palpatine is a master of all the lightsaber forms either...

Darth Kreiger
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
it doesnt hurt that Palpatine is a master of all the lightsaber forms either...

Where does it say this?

ESB Vader
ok prove to us that revans force storm is the identical one to palpatines, DS and zephiel already stated it is different, zephiel said that IT WAS NOT A WORMHOLE, and the only other force storm is lightning!!! which apparantly sidious has came to learn

Darth Sexiest
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
it doesnt hurt that Palpatine is a master of all the lightsaber forms either...



So was Revan. smile

Lightsnake
That you'll have to prove

Darth Subjekt
Known practitioners: Yoda (Yoda mastered all the forms), Qui-Gon Jinn, Darth Sidious (Palpatine trained in all of the forms), Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, Darth Revan, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura. - Lighsaber Combat - wikipedeia

Now notice how Revan's name is in there, if he had mastered all forms then it would have mentioned it as it did for Yoda and Sidious. And if you want to say that Wiki isnt a good enough source, then provide one to the contrary that Revan DID master all forms....

ESB Vader
wiki and wookie updates very fast ok? and they hell dont say anything about revan mastering all forms of lightsaber combat.

and sidious? ROTS is nearly as powerful as DE sidious, why is DE better? just because in DE he learnt more stuff ok? in terms of damage and power ROTS sidious is nearly as powerful, very close.

and with vader by his side? who pulls of unexpected moves with his environment? malak is a brainless brute who prefers bashing his opponents to a pulp, the only smart one is revan, and its 2 smart people vs revan, so? obviously malak would go down first then its 2 on 1 vs revan

Quinlan_Vos
I don't see why Malak can't hold off Vader until Revan slays Sidious. In addition, Revan can probably get rid of Vader faster than Sidious does to Malak.

Lightsnake
Since Revan will be slaughtered by sidious, your point collapses

Quinlan_Vos
"slaughtered"

I doubt it

Darth Kreiger
Considering DE Sidious was ROTJ's Sidious's Spirit in a Younger body, that means he knew all of his stuff in or shortly after ROTS.

Palpatine was stated as TRAINING in all the forms, that's what Niman users do, it never said Mastered. Palpatine uses Juyo with many elements of Ataru.

Oh and by the way, since this is in the Emperor's Throne Room, I find it hard to believe Sidious will use a Force Wormhole(Storm)

Lightsnake
Doubt it all you want, can you form a single argument for Revan without conjecutre? revan did not have hands on training with the Ancients like Sidious did.

And Palpatine apparently mastered the forms, anyways...and he grew stronger by DE

Quinlan_Vos
Darth Bane learned most of his power from Revan. Where did Revan learn it from. Either he too must have learned it from a higher power like Ragnos or he formed some new Force abilities. If this is DE Sidious, then Sids/Vader wins. If it's ROTS Sidious, Revan wins. Sidious can keep firing lightning but Revan could probably strike back with Lightning or do Force Shield. It doesn't matter really to me, but I feel Revan > Sidious.

Lightsnake
Prove up or shut up. He didnt learn it directly from the spirits of the Dark Lords he summoned like Palpatine did, did he? And Palpatine knows a lot more than lightning, stop being stupid. You keep saying 'Revan knows more because he does!'

there is zero proof and I'm tired of conjecture

Quinlan_Vos
What has ROTS Sidious shown us:

- Lightning
- Push
- Pull
- Wave
- maybe Choke though he hasn't shown it.

From the Bane novel, what has Revan shown. Revan taught Bane, so we can assume Revan know's all of Banes moves. And Bane was quite impressive. More powerful than Sidious it seemed.

Darth Kreiger
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Prove up or shut up. He didnt learn it directly from the spirits of the Dark Lords he summoned like Palpatine did, did he? And Palpatine knows a lot more than lightning, stop being stupid. You keep saying 'Revan knows more because he does!'

there is zero proof and I'm tired of conjecture

Where the hell does it say Plagueis/Sidious summoned Spirits? You also from nowhere say he Mastered every Lightsaber form, he did not, he was a Master of Juyo, and likely Ataru

Revan created most of the powers, or he learned them from an Ancient, either way

Lightsnake
What has Revan shown us? absolutely nothing. We know he knew the thought bomb, which won't help...

And it's confirmed Palpatine's stronger than Bane by TPM, actually, according to the Dark Side sourcebook.

And yeah, Palpatine's learned from the spirits of the Ancients themselves and doesn't know Sith magic, lovely assertion

Quinlan_Vos
So, does than mean Bane > Revan. Since Revan could have made those Force moves himself and probably mastered it, Revan is probably greater than Bane. And do you hve a quote that says Sidious > Bane and Sidious learned from the Ancients?

ESB Vader
ok lightsnake answer this, true or false, revan is the most overrated person is SW

Quinlan_Vos
Revan WAS overrated. After the Bane novel, he has becomes less overrated because he was finally not an unknown, taught Bane (who's quite powerful) everything, and appears to be powerful due to Bane's powers (who learns it from Revan). Revan is not overrated.

Lightsnake
Sidious greater than Bane: Dark Side Sourcebooksidious learning from the Ancients: Dark Side Sourcebook, Visionaries-see the spirits around him, The Ultimate Visual Guide confirms he called them up, Empire's End shows them knowing him personally...
and in PoD, it's shown Revan got his stuff from the Ancients

Darth Sexy
Revan gets slaughtered by Sidious? PSh.. It's very unlikely Sidious slaughters the 3rd or 4th most powerful sith.. But whatever makes you happy.

Lightsnake
It'd make sense from the most powerful Sith killing the weaker one, but...

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