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ok so best dueler of the movies vs best dueler of the EU, mace = shatterpoint and luke = some unknown form, idk how he makes 20 sabers

Luke uses a combination of Djem So and Ataru.

Shatterpoint isen't the name of a Form. It is a technique of the Vapaad Form, wich Mace uses.

I'd say without the Force, and pure lightsaber, Mace takes this.

But after a terribly difficult battle.

Luke uses Djem So like his daddy. Luke's version seems to be more like a type of opposite of Vaapad since he was calm in Unifying Force and the Swarm War. There isn't much differenece between Djem So and Vaapad/Juyo except the fact that Juyo is a lot faster and the user can turn his enemies' powers against him. I wouldn't say Mace is the best duelist. It's kinda a tie between him, Yoda, Annie, and Depa.

However, I believe Luke could take Mace with a lot of difficulty.

Originally posted by Blue_Hefner
Luke uses Djem So like his daddy. Luke's version seems to be more like a type of opposite of Vaapad since he was calm in Unifying Force and the Swarm War. There isn't much differenece between Djem So and Vaapad/Juyo except the fact that Juyo is a lot faster and the users can turn his enemies' powers against him. I wouldn't say Mace is the best duelist. It's kinda a tie between him, Yoda, Annie, and Depa.

However, I believe Luke could take Mace with a lot of difficulty.


Luke had a uniquely powerful calmness and control in those books, but only in great part because of the Force.

However, since this is lightsaber only, Luke can't call upon a very great grasp of that kind of control, so Mace wins.

Good points though.

hmm, then how does luke shake his saber to make it look like 20? did he had to use the force to do that because i dont think any jedi or sith could do that without the force.

and i believe this is a hardmatch, luke is very graceful in saber combat as you said sexiest, calm this and that so no use of reflecting "hate"

Originally posted by ESB Vader
hmm, then how does luke shake his saber to make it look like 20? did he had to use the force to do that because i dont think any jedi or sith could do that without the force.

and i believe this is a hardmatch, luke is very graceful in saber combat as you said sexiest, calm this and that so no use of reflecting "hate"

Very true, Its straight up swordsmanship.

And yes, the whirling of the lightsaber to make it look like 20 was, obviously, done with the Force. (The physical ability to generate the kinetic force)

But Mace wouldn't need to use Vapaad to beat Luke.
He could use his mastery of Juyo to win.

Mace takes this, barely.

Luke is above Mace in saber combat. Maybe not by leagues but enough to defeat him in a saber match.

As I said before, Luke's saber form has elements of Vaapad in it. So, yes, he was using the force. That's just what I've observed. It may not be Djem So mixed Vaapad at all. I just think James was reading Shatterpoint while he writing The Unifying Force, and saw a way to make Luke even more godly.

i need a more clear explanation on vaapad and shatterpoint, i dont know very much about it, so thank you in advance if you want to explain

Well, I'm not good at explaining things as you may have seen from my previous posts. You should really read Shatterpoint by Matthew Stover. It's the best Star Wars novel you'll ever read apart from the ROTS novel.

Originally posted by Blue_Hefner
As I said before, Luke's saber form has elements of Vaapad in it. So, yes, he was using the force. That's just what I've observed. It may not be Djem So mixed Vaapad at all. I just think James was reading Shatterpoint while he writing The Unifying Force, and saw a way to make Luke even more godly.

Luke's Form has no elements of Vapaad in it.
He diden't know it. It died with Mace Windu.

He uses Djem So and Ataru and somtimes combines their attacks together.

Sure, I got a nice HTML on it, hold on a sec...

http://lightsaberguide.darkjedibrotherhood.com/LightsaberGuide.pdf

There we go.

It's not "Official" but is canonical nonetheless.

Enjoy.

Originally posted by Blue_Hefner
Well, I'm not good at explaining things as you may have seen from my previous posts. You should really read Shatterpoint by Matthew Stover. It's the best Star Wars novel you'll ever read apart from the ROTS novel.

you may not be good but you are certeinly good enough

Originally posted by Darth Sexiest
http://lightsaberguide.darkjedibrotherhood.com/LightsaberGuide.pdf

There we go.

It's not "Official" but is canonical nonetheless.

Enjoy.

Sometimes, it's hard to tell the difference between Ataru, Djem So, and Juyo for me. I guess you're right; however, most Ataru use leaping attacks. Luke must have just dropped the leaping parts.

i was just following this:

Jacen Solo described Luke in the Battle of Yuuzhan'tar as a maelstrom of Force energy, a Force storm against which there was no shelter. So calm and focused that his actions were not interrupted by any thought. Luke merged with the Force in a degree which seemed the Jedi Master, physically or as an individual personality, not present on the battlefield anymore. Luke's lightsaber blade was described to look like ten or twenty blades moving at once. The Solo twins were astounded by seeing their uncle in such a state. One should note that the description of Luke's blade work matches the legendary lightsaber combat form Vaapad which was created by Mace Windu.

Originally posted by Blue_Hefner
Sometimes, it's hard to tell the difference between Ataru, Djem So, and Juyo for me. I guess you're right; however, most Ataru use leaping attacks. Luke must have just dropped the leaping parts.

i was just following this:

Jacen Solo described Luke in the Battle of Yuuzhan'tar as a maelstrom of Force energy, a Force storm against which there was no shelter. So calm and focused that his actions were not interrupted by any thought. Luke merged with the Force in a degree which seemed the Jedi Master, physically or as an individual personality, not present on the battlefield anymore. Luke's lightsaber blade was described to look like ten or twenty blades moving at once. The Solo twins were astounded by seeing their uncle in such a state. One should note that the description of Luke's blade work matches the legendary lightsaber combat form Vaapad which was created by Mace Windu.


Yup. Good to point out.
But it only looks like it, it isen't actually Vapaad.

I have that book too...

Luke pwns. Now, if this were Clone Wars Cartoon Mace this would be close...

Well, he never said which Luke or Mace.

RotS Mace. And he beats Luke, Albeit through a difficult battle.

Btw, Clone Wars Mace is before RotS Mace, So RotS Mace wins.

NJO Luke would defeat any SW character...

Originally posted by Blue_Hefner
Well, he never said which Luke or Mace.
Actually, he said njo Luke in the topic title.


Except Clone Wars Mace is uber Mace, who can destroy an entire legion of droids with just the Force and his fists.

well luke cant pull of 20 lightsabers because i assume he used the force to do so, i said a pure saber fight, and didnt some one say luke uses form v combined with form IV?

Originally posted by darthsith19
Actually, he said njo Luke in the topic title.


Except Clone Wars Mace is uber Mace, who can destroy an entire legion of droids with just the Force and his fists.


Clone Wars Mace and RotS Mace are one and the same.

RotS Mace can obviously do everything the more "recent" Clone Wars Mace could.

Since NJO Luke can't draw on the Force for most of his awsome ability, he is left at an advantage with Mace's seemingly masterful grasp of Martial combat. That and Juyo, all 7 forms grouped together...

Luke, using Djem So and Ataru, just two Forms...

Mace does win this one, barely.

Since when can't luke draw upon the force? This is a saber battle but saber battles are based on the force as well. That's what this thread was intended to do. Understand? It is only a saber battle but they still use their force abilities to fight with a lightsaber.

Originally posted by Darth Sexiest
Since NJO Luke can't draw on the Force for most of his awsome ability, he is left at an advantage with Mace's seemingly masterful grasp of Martial combat. That and Juyo, all 7 forms grouped together...

Actually, if you are implying that Juyo is a combination of all seven forms, you couldn't be more wrong. It's draws from the two forms of Ataru, and Djem So.

And again, not to mention that you can't say they "can't use the force during lightsaber battles". How else would they fight? Unless this is Ulic qel Droma, I don't see it happening.

Exactly, a lightsaber battle entails no offensive or defensive powers, but instead more or less involuntary uses of the Force, as if they didn't use the Force at all - they'd be dropped a notch or several in dueling ability.

Basically there's no Force pushing, Force lightning, etc. however they still command the Force when using their lightsabers in a way that will not directly affect the opponent physically or mentally (save for being chopped in half). No Force powers, I should say. Simple explaination.

Originally posted by Darth Sexiest
Clone Wars Mace and RotS Mace are one and the same.

RotS Mace can obviously do everything the more "recent" Clone Wars Mace could.
Yeah, I suppose your right, I suppose RPTS Mace, unarmed, could beat an entire legion of Battle Droids when he, armed, plus 201 other Jedi couldn't do this in AOTC. So I guess ROTS Mace unarmed > AOTC Mace plus 201 other Jedi, right?

Originally posted by darthsith19
Actually, he said njo Luke in the topic title.


Except Clone Wars Mace is uber Mace, who can destroy an entire legion of droids with just the Force and his fists. uhh wouldent he still be able to do that if rots was after clone wars it not like he lost that skill

Vaapad is based on the force to fight. Saying Luke cant use the force to fight with his saber, then Mace cant either...Luke takes this.

Hasn't Luke cut his connection before? If then he should be used to it, whereas to Mace it would be a totally new experience. If he hasn't, then I don't know, probably Luke anyway...

Yeah, Luke has, but Mace has faced deadly lightsaber users who couldn't use the force.

the clone wars cartoon is VERY exagerated. the exagerated parts are there to make it look good, plus, what ever CW mace can do, ROTS mace can do.

i think mace, but i dont know to much about NJO luke. luke too powerful though.

ok, njo luke and clone wars mace

My money is on Luke.

couldnt mace shatterpoint take luke? vaapad is totally unpredictable

Shatterpoint and Vaapad seemed to be slung around as if they automatically win the fight for Mace. They really don't...

i guess we cant really tell whos the winner, in my point of view, they seem equal, that 20 lightsaber things, that is because luke use the force to do something to it, im talking a pure lightsaber match, no push no pull no using force to duplicate sabers

Originally posted by Captain REX
Shatterpoint and Vaapad seemed to be slung around as if they automatically win the fight for Mace. They really don't...

lol exactly, it really isn't that impressive.

CW Cartoon Mace, who can pwn droid armies using nothing but his fists, punching through durasteel, could likely take NJO Luke in a very, very close battle.

since this is a pure lightsaber match which you cant use the force to enhance your saber like making it 20, then i guess mace could stand a chance