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Originally posted by Alfheim
More useful information. I dont know what the religous forum would do without you. You always come out with thought provoking information. Just so you know im being sarcastic.

But why are you being sarcastic? Are you bitter?

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
But why are you being sarcastic? Are you bitter?

No. I just dont understand why I should listen to anything you say. Its like you're telling me stuff and I should listen to you just because you say it. (Is going to try and reason with him but its going to be a waste of time).

Originally posted by Alfheim
No. I just dont understand why I should listen to anything you say. Its like you're telling me stuff and I should listen to you just because you say it. (Is going to try and reason with him but its going to be a waste of time).



hysterical

I don't understand why you should listen to anything I say either--but you do.

Question: did I force you to read and/or respond to any of my posts? No? Oh, I see so then your excuse for reading my posts has nothing in the world to do with me but your own volitional choice (was I redundant just now?). So then why I are you so bitter (or why do you seem bitter)?

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive


hysterical

I don't understand why you should listen to anything I say either--but you do.

Question: did I force you to read and/or respond to any of my posts? No? Oh, I see so then your excuse for reading my posts has nothing in the world to do with me but your own volitional choice (was I redundant just now?). So then why I are you so bitter (or why do you seem bitter)?


Uh I said wasn't bitter.

P.S. You can see where this is heading.

Originally posted by Alfheim
No. I just dont understand why I should listen to anything you say. Its like you're telling me stuff and I should listen to you just because you say it. (Is going to try and reason with him but its going to be a waste of time).
I might be wrong but I am sure that I did not see that this thread was dedicated to you. You are taking this a bit personal. Hit a sensitif spot??? that one where Satan has been convincing you that you are doing alright without Jesus in your life???

Originally posted by sonnet
You are so right. Even Christians have a problem with this because the things of this world( friends, responsibilities at home, work, our image at work and between friends) put so much pressure on people that they would rather feel in with the crowd than love God more and stand up for what they believe. Many would rather spend time with family on Sunday, using the excuse that they work so hard during the week, than going to church or just read from the Bible. Before we know it we have fallen in the trap where it is more important to us what peolpe think of us than how God sees us.


I have been guilty of yielding to the pressures of my peers. The reason why this pressure is so formidable is because we wrestle not against flesh and blood. In other words, if our lives were just impacted by other people we would have no trouble brushing off their negative influence. But this is not the case, we are constantly bombarded (in the spirit, the realm that we cannot see unless the Lord permits us to) by demonic ranks of evil spirits. These demons tempt us personally with thoughts and suggestions to compromise our walk with God in this one, tiny area whatever it is. These demons are experts in their field. They know what our proclivities are, so they tempt us in those areas. We are still ultimately responsible for our own actions. But the demons are an unwelcome influence against us, and they endeavor to get us to sin. They want to separate us from God's love. They will not succeed however, if we submit therefore to God and resist them. They will flee. But we must resist them by speaking the Word of God. Whatever temptation they present to us in our mind we must counter with a Scripture just as the Lord, our Savior, our Captain in this fight of faith did against the devil. Demons can oppress us as well as tempt us. Unbelievers are even more susceptible to demonic attack. They do not have the indwelling power and presence of the Holy Spirit. They do not have the armor of God, the shield of faith, or the sword of the spirit, which is the Word of God. One such woman had a spirit of infirmity. This spirit was not inside of the woman (in other words she was not demon possessed (some people are), but the spirit was somehow attached to this woman’s body. Demons have specialized functions in satan's kingdom. They only do what they are assigned and equipped to do by the enemy. This woman had this spirit of infirmity for eighteen years and, because of the demon, she was bent over and could in no way raise herself up. Jesus laid His hands on her and immediately she was made straight. There are demons of all kinds of shapes, sizes, colors, anatomical combinations (half-human and half-animal). Demons are organized in ranks as listed in Ephesians. The ranks are the principalities, powers, rulers of the darkness of this age, and finally the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places (i.e. outer space). There are a great number of wicked spirits in the area around the earth. There are evil spirits on the earth and under the earth (i.e. in Hell). Some evil spirits (fallen angels) are presently in Tartarus (a region or part of Hell). They have been delivered into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment for their sin. Moreover, the very atmosphere is infested with demons. The devil who is the prince of the power of the air heads these wicked spirits. But we--through Jesus Christ--have defeated the devil, who walks about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. Jesus has given us authority to walk on serpents and scorpions (figurative language for demons) and over all the ability of the enemy (satan) and nothing shall any means hurt us (nothing lasting or permanent).

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I have been guilty of yielding to the pressures of my peers. The reason why this pressure is so formidable is because we wrestle not against flesh and blood. In other words, if our lives were just impacted by other people we would have no trouble brushing off their negative influence. But this is not the case, we are constantly bombarded (in the spirit, the realm that we cannot see unless the Lord permits us to) by demonic ranks of evil spirits. But we--through Jesus Christ--have defeated the devil, who walks about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. Jesus has given us authority to walk on serpents and scorpions (figurative language for demons) and over all the ability of the enemy (satan) and nothing shall any means hurt us (nothing lasting or permanent).
Thanks for this great piece of inspiration. The Bible tells us to cinstantly remind each other and uplift each other and I believe it is because God knows how cunning Satan is when he tries to impact on our lives. That is also why we are told to take on the armor of God, daily. But we also read in the Bible that He that is within us is greater than he (Satan) that is in the world. And we as children of God really do not have anything to be afraid of as long as we walk in God's will.

Originally posted by sonnet
I might be wrong but I am sure that I did not see that this thread was dedicated to you. You are taking this a bit personal. Hit a sensitif spot??? that one where Satan has been convincing you that you are doing alright without Jesus in your life???


yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever.

Hmmm.

I have a lot of religious idols - Hindu, Ancient Egyptian, Buddhist and so on - they are wonderful forms of art.

I pay a lot of attention to the important things in this life - since I believe it is the only one I have, so I better make it worth it.

I love this world - I love the people in it that are dear to me and nothing is higher then they. And it is worth it. I have yet to see any evidence giving a higher percentage of "love" to God has any profound effect on a persons happiness - since I am yet to meet a person of any religion happier then me. I live life, and I live it by the standards I believe right, and I enjoy it. And that will be a part of what defines me.

It is in no way idol worship. Nor are there demons hidden in it. The claim that there are does not ring true with my experiences. Nor with the experiences of people I know.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Hmmm.

I pay a lot of attention to the important things in this life - since I believe it is the only one I have, so I better make it worth it.

I love this world - I love the people in it that are dear to me and nothing is higher then they. And it is worth it. I have yet to see any evidence giving a higher percentage of "love" to God has any profound effect on a persons happiness - since I am yet to meet a person of any religion happier then me. I live life, and I live it by the standards I believe right, and I enjoy it. And that will be a part of what defines me.



Yes, you only have one life on this earth, then after that it is you and eternity- in eternal pain and suffering without God just as you lived your life or with God and with eternal joy and peace if you accept Jesus as His son and Saviour.
I do not love this world or the things of this world. If I had to give it up now should God ask that of me, I would. Nothing is more important than being worthy of standing in God's presence one day and enter into heaven for my life on earth is but a moment compared to eternity. So I would be a idiot to measure a moment more important than where I would spend eternity.
I love my family and children too and take joy in the fact that they love Jesus and worship God too. For I know that we will be together for eternity

Originally posted by Alfheim
yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever.
Thought so.

Originally posted by Atlantis001

Sacrifice in religion is interpreted as a way to sacrifice each individual animalistic or unspiritual nature so that he/she can be reborn into a spiritual life. For that they must sacrifice something pure, and that is why they sacrificed children... and virgins.(I am not approving sacrifice I am just describing it)


Christianism also believes in sacrifice.... Jesus was sacrificed because he was pure. In the same way children were sacrificed in other religions because they are pure.


Sacrifice is just not practiced in christianism because Jesus was pure enough for all the sins of mankind.

But sacrifice is still a valid way for purification in christianism, it is just not needed.
The evidence for this, is that Jesus was sacrificed.
God instructed the Israelites to sacrifice a lamb as attonement for their sins. this was a holy event and only the priests was permitted into the temple. When God sent Jesus He became the Lamb who's blood was the only blood that can wash away our sins. It is no need for us to sacrifice animals to God anymore. In fact it angers Him if we as Christians should do that.
So no, you have the wrong information.

The sacrifice of Jesus can in no way be releted to that of children because they cannot save a soul and their blood means nothing to the souls of mankind. It was not just the fact that Jesus was pure, but that He was the Son of God - that made him pure. The only way that your spirit can be reborn is by accepting Jesus Christ, the Saviour and God's sacrifice to us. No child's or animals' s blood can do that for you.

Originally posted by sonnet
Yes, you only have one life on this earth, then after that it is you and eternity- in eternal pain and suffering without God just as you lived your life or with God and with eternal joy and peace if you accept Jesus as His son and Saviour.

Oh yes, the big old "is all the wonder of earth worth it if you end up in hell, even though you don't believe and don't think there is evidence for it."

I have one life on earth. I am pretty much at peace with the realisation that when it ends there is unlikely to be anything else. That I will be gone.

As such I realise the importance of living this life right. Without giving into this whole "mortal life is less important then the promise of eternal life. This is just the proving grounds for the real life." And you know what? That mentality strikes me as a waste. With no proof (up to my standard) I will continue to assume this isn't a stage rehearsal - one has to make it count.



And it saddens me... that some people have such empty, unconnected lives. The idea nothing is important enough on this earth, that you'd give it all up at the drop of the hat.

Why bother living? Why bother with this life oh God if it is so pale and so easy to leave? Why not simply put the souls in heaven and forget this charade! Why not do away with the wonders of life and life's experience when they pale so!

Your followers oh God are so willing to accept the afterlife is so much better then this world based on nothing more then a promise! And that blinds them to the potential of life! And they call an atheist borderline Nihilistic!



Good for you. I on the other hand have no real expectation of eternity - thus I will make my life on earth a testament to the people I live and who deserve it.

You God can't understand that? Then I don't want his salvation. He can't see the worth of what we do on earth is greater then merely "having faith" then I will have to give it a miss.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I have been guilty of yielding to the pressures of my peers.

I guess you are going to hell then.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I have been guilty of yielding to the pressures of my peers. The reason why this pressure is so formidable is because we wrestle not against flesh and blood. In other words, if our lives were just impacted by other people we would have no trouble brushing off their negative influence. But this is not the case, we are constantly bombarded (in the spirit, the realm that we cannot see unless the Lord permits us to) by demonic ranks of evil spirits. These demons tempt us personally with thoughts and suggestions to compromise our walk with God in this one, tiny area whatever it is.

For some reason, I doubt you've had many opportunities to stray from your faith... In "Batman," for example: "Have you ever danced with the devil in the pale moonlight?" In other words, until you've done that, you haven't really lived. If you're not really tempted, you really can't be sure of your resolve. Of course, I could be wrong...

I SAW GOODY JIM REAPER WITH THE DEVIL!

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura

You God can't understand that? Then I don't want his salvation. He can't see the worth of what we do on earth is greater then merely "having faith" then I will have to give it a miss.
It is not God that needs to understand it, it is you that needs to understand that God created man to worship Him an Him alone. There is nothing creater for man to do than this, because all our earthly material efforts and achievements will account to nothing in the end. But faith will, and specifically faith in God. The fact that man rebells against God because of Satan's influance does not force God to change His plan or to accommodate our disobedience.It really does not matter whether you like God or like His plan for His creation, you will still stand in judgement before Him.

Originally posted by sonnet
It is not God that needs to understand it, it is you that needs to understand that God created man to worship Him an Him alone. There is nothing creater for man to do than this, because all our earthly material efforts and achievements will account to nothing in the end. But faith will, and specifically faith in God. The fact that man rebells against God because of Satan's influance does not force God to change His plan or to accommodate our disobedience.It really does not matter whether you like God or like His plan for His creation, you will still stand in judgement before Him.

BBBBBBBOOOORING!! sleeping

Originally posted by Alfheim
BBBBBBBOOOORING!! sleeping
Its that sensitive spot again, I see. Your spirit knows the truth, but your soul is corrupt and is trying to shut out God's voice. That is why you find it so annoying and can only be sarcastic.

Originally posted by lord xyz
How long did it take for you to find this so you can say Atlantis001 is wrong?

Originally posted by sonnet
Its that sensitive spot again, I see. Your spirit knows the truth, but your soul is corrupt and is trying to shut out God's voice. That is why you find it so annoying and can only be sarcastic.

No, I think he just couldn't care less and is - like most people here I'll bet - getting a bit annoyed with dozens of threads that have no point at all and are simply saying the same thing over and over.

Originally posted by Lana
No, I think he just couldn't care less and is - like most people here I'll bet - getting a bit annoyed with dozens of threads that have no point at all and are simply saying the same thing over and over.

Not to mention they don't say much of anything at all.

Originally posted by Alliance
Not to mention they don't say much of anything at all.

Nope.

It's pretty much "if you don't believe and do the same things I do you're going to hell!", and upon discovering that really no one cares, they just keep posting it over...and over...and over.

It's like a broken record and a car wreck at the same time. You KNOW it's going to be the same thing yet you can't help but look anyway.

Originally posted by Lana
No, I think he just couldn't care less and is - like most people here I'll bet - getting a bit annoyed with dozens of threads that have no point at all and are simply saying the same thing over and over.
And I suppose I have to feel sorry for you being annoyed by the truth? I might just say that we are getting annoyed by people commenting on the Bible and God, something they now nothing about, using literature that are filled with lies.

Originally posted by sonnet
And I suppose I have to feel sorry for you being annoyed by the truth? I might just say that we are getting annoyed by people commenting on the Bible and God, something they now nothing about, using literature that are filled with lies.

Can you prove that it is the truth?

No using the bible, by the way. You can't prove the contents of a religious text by using said text.

Originally posted by Lana
Can you prove that it is the truth?

No using the bible, by the way. You can't prove the contents of a religious text by using said text.
God does not need proof. He is all around us. The fact that you don't want to accept it is your perrocative. I won't use the Bible for the Bible said that we should not cast our pearls to the swine.

Originally posted by sonnet
I won't use the Bible for the Bible said that we should not cast our pearls to the swine.

Dude, that's gross. Does the bible condone beastiality?

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Dude, that's gross. Does the bible condone beastiality?
I don't see the relevance to beastiality. In fact what I wrote has no indication that it has. And by the way, I am not a dude.

Originally posted by sonnet
I don't see the relevance to beastiality. In fact what I wrote has no indication that it has. And by the way, I am not a dude.

you're the one talking about jerking off on pigs, not me.

Originally posted by sonnet
God does not need proof. He is all around us. The fact that you don't want to accept it is your perrocative. I won't use the Bible for the Bible said that we should not cast our pearls to the swine.

Why do you expect people to believe something with no evidence to support the possibility of it being real?

Originally posted by sonnet
God does not need proof. He is all around us. The fact that you don't want to accept it is your perrocative. I won't use the Bible for the Bible said that we should not cast our pearls to the swine.

How is he all around us?

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
you're the one talking about jerking off on pigs, not me.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
you're the one talking about jerking off on pigs, not me.
No you are the one acting like a swine...

Originally posted by sonnet
God does not need proof.

Is Lana God? She needs not proof?

Originally posted by Lana
Why do you expect people to believe something with no evidence to support the possibility of it being real?
Actually I do not expect anything from you at all. What you choose to believe is up to you. I'm telling you what I believe and why. It does not realy matter what anybody believes, God still is real.

Originally posted by sonnet
Actually I do not expect anything from you at all. What you choose to believe is up to you. I'm telling you what I believe and why. It does not realy matter what anybody believes, God still is real.

Except all you have is a belief...nothign more. And your "belief" is nto even based on fact.

Originally posted by Alliance
Is Lana God? She needs not proof?

Yes. I am. Now start worshipping.

Originally posted by sonnet
No you are the one acting like a swine...

thanks. I wish that had the searing bit of wit enough to hurt my feelings. But I don't have feelings. I haven't suckled the milk of christ enough to figure out things like that.

Chrsitianism is like a family tradition that makes people feel part of something, of a group.... that does something. It reflects the people need or search for authenticity.... it is a social integration tool, not a spiritual search.


Just ask any psychologist or sociologist....


EDIT : or psychiatrist... just kidding

and well... of course there is always something spiritual, but it is very rare in my opinion.... if people sincirely were seeking spirituality they will not be so afraid of thinking outside of the bible... just to see the possibilities at least.

Originally posted by Atlantis001
it is a social integration tool, not a spiritual search.

ABSOLUTELY!

It's like a big big social club.....
Yes takenn from Paganism...

Originally posted by Alliance
I SAW GOODY JIM REAPER WITH THE DEVIL!

He offered me an eternity of babbling on the internet, for the price of my soul. A fair trade IMO.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
I haven't suckled the milk of christ enough to figure out things like that.

Urizen has. droolio

Originally posted by Jim Reaper
He offered me an eternity of babbling on the internet, for the price of my soul. A fair trade IMO.

Hehe. I saw Goody JIA with the devil.

Originally posted by sonnet
It is not God that needs to understand it, it is you that needs to understand that God created man to worship Him an Him alone.

So much for.... free will!

And why is your God worthy if he doesn't even understand his creation? I understand the things I create, most people do - but does God? No, and apparently God doesn't even need to try and understand.

It sounds rather unpleasant. Like a tyrant. And I don't worship tyrants. When God actually provides some reason to believe he loves us like children and not as people who serve no other reason then to worship then we will have something to talk about. Until then he fails in my book.



And as I said why have earth at all then? It is useless apparently. Nothing matters in the end.



Yep, your decent loving God that doesn't care what I think. What I feel. Disgusting really. Why should I love someone like that? And relationship has to be two ways, and at the moment everyone is telling me "God doesn't care what you think" "God doesn't care whether you understand of have a problem" "God just wants your worship."

Well, he isn't going to get it with that attitude. And on the remarkable chance he exists and I go to judgment I would tell him as much. And he casts me down then fine.

Because it is something that some religious people don't understand - this isn't about "rebelling for no reason" - this is about what is right in the eys of his creation which he cares about. This is about humanity. God wants to be aloof and uncaring about the oppinion of his Children then I see no reason to dedicate more love to him then people I know care. And if he can't understand that then he is not as great as you make out.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
....... are presently in Tartarus (a region or part of Hell)......

Tarturus is part of GREEK MYTHOLOGY and is technically a PAGAN beleif....

Why does your Bible copy Pagan mythologies ? First Zoroastrianism, then Egyptian Mythos, NOW GREEK MYTHOS ? WTF ?

Originally posted by sonnet
It is not God that needs to understand it, it is you that needs to understand that God created man to worship Him an Him alone. There is nothing creater for man to do than this, because all our earthly material efforts and achievements will account to nothing in the end. But faith will, and specifically faith in God. The fact that man rebells against God because of Satan's influance does not force God to change His plan or to accommodate our disobedience.It really does not matter whether you like God or like His plan for His creation, you will still stand in judgement before Him.

Every time that I read your posts I know and am reminded of the Scriptures that state:

1 Thessalonians 2:13
For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe.


So, yes I thank God without ceasing because every time that I receive the Word of God (through your Scripturally sound posts) I welcome it not as the word of men, but as it is truth, the Word of God. This Word works effectively in me as I continue to believe. Your posts are replete with the Word of God. The Lord Jesus states that if we abide/continue in His Word, we are His disciples indeed, and we shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall make us free. We are indeed disciples of Christ and free!

Sonnet, we must continue to endure hardship as good soldiers of Jesus Christ. We are strong, the Word of God abides in us, and we have overcome the wicked one (satan)--through Jesus Christ our Lord. Whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. Who is he/she who overcomes the world, but he/she who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. Therefore, we also since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith, Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Finally, my sister in Christ, be strong in the Lord and in the power of the Lord's might.

sooooo... you're saying Christians are unoriginal?

Originally posted by sonnet
And I suppose I have to feel sorry for you being annoyed by the truth? I might just say that we are getting annoyed by people commenting on the Bible and God, something they now nothing about, using literature that are filled with lies.
People could feel a bit insulted when a person they don' t know suggests that they are unfamiliar with a concept/religion which they have studied, and may have once been a (devout) member of.

In many cases, it is actually the knowledge of religion which has been a key factor in deciding to leave Christianity and move on. Many have studied religion - study and reflection which involve significant reading on religion, philosophy, religious critique - and the more they learned, the less accepting they have been of what religious authorities have traditionally taught.

Originally posted by Alliance
sooooo... you're saying Christians are unoriginal? Very brain washed indeed! They can't or will never accept their roots of that religion.

Not all, but my roomate is Catholic, and he remains ignorant of his religions past...despite my prodding.

Originally posted by Alliance
Not all, but my roomate is Catholic, and he remains ignorant of his religions past...despite my prodding. True........I was once a very strict Christian and I did my research.........My father is or was raised Roman Catholic being from Italy, but yet he is very open minded...though hates protestants......

I have two very good friends who are Christian. They've done research on their religion and disagree with many things in the bible, but still believe in god and Jesus and what they think is the overall message of their teachings (don't judge/condemn others, do what you think is right, and life is precious). They're both very open-minded and completely non-judgmental about people's beliefs, because they both think that your actions decide who you are as a person, not what you do or do not believe in.

THAT, I think, should be the proper approach to religion. Don't let it blind you or take over your life.

Originally posted by Lana
I have two very good friends who are Christian. They've done research on their religion and disagree with many things in the bible, but still believe in god and Jesus and what they think is the overall message of their teachings (don't judge/condemn others, do what you think is right, and life is precious). They're both very open-minded and completely non-judgmental about people's beliefs, because they both think that your actions decide who you are as a person, not what you do or do not believe in.

THAT, I think, should be the proper approach to religion. Don't let it blind you or take over your life. Nice but in the end is the fear that they could be wrong and don't want to take a chance on their eternal soul..............!!!!!!!!

As true with many that know but don't leave.........IT'S FEAR if they are wrong............

Fear over thought.

Originally posted by Alliance
Fear over thought. Fear over the myth that they don't understand and will die for.........much like many past religions....they are just sheep.........in that one quote that Jesus said "People are like sheep", it is true............do a study on sheep.............they are really stupid and only follow after another .....they will even eat themselves to death..........and if one jumps off a cliff, they all will follow........

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Tarturus is part of GREEK MYTHOLOGY and is technically a PAGAN beleif....

Why does your Bible copy Pagan mythologies ? First Zoroastrianism, then Egyptian Mythos, NOW GREEK MYTHOS ? WTF ?

Funny, huh... the more someone research the more someone finds pagan elements in christianism.


Tartarus is in the Nag Hammadi(the gnostic texts) too... of course it is a apocryph, but it is from the same Jewish culture where christianism had its roots.


Christianity have many greek elements because they were slaves of the greeks at the time of Alexander, the Great.

Santana has always been one of my idols.

So I guess I'm going to Hell.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Every time that I read your posts I know and am reminded of the Scriptures that state:

1 Thessalonians 2:13
For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe.


So, yes I thank God without ceasing because every time that I receive the Word of God (through your Scripturally sound posts) I welcome it not as the word of men, but as it is truth, the Word of God. This Word works effectively in me as I continue to believe. Your posts are replete with the Word of God. The Lord Jesus states that if we abide/continue in His Word, we are His disciples indeed, and we shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall make us free. We are indeed disciples of Christ and free!

Sonnet, we must continue to endure hardship as good soldiers of Jesus Christ. We are strong, the Word of God abides in us, and we have overcome the wicked one (satan)--through Jesus Christ our Lord. Whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith. Who is he/she who overcomes the world, but he/she who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. Therefore, we also since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith, Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Finally, my sister in Christ, be strong in the Lord and in the power of the Lord's might.


Thanks for totally IGNORING another FACT JIA....

We have already confirmed that Tarturus is not an original Christian concept, but one that was stolen or "borrowed" from Greek mythology, thereby clarifying the fact that Christianity has taken ideas from PAGAN mythos, and made it part of its own...

See you do this all the time...when there is a fact that you have no argument against, you simply ignore it, and then you wondor why people are disrespectful to you...

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Thanks for totally IGNORING another FACT JIA....

We have already confirmed that Tarturus is not an original Christian concept, but one that was stolen or "borrowed" from Greek mythology, thereby clarifying the fact that Christianity has taken ideas from PAGAN mythos, and made it part of its own...
Christianity did not borrow this belief. Have you ever stopped to consider that most of the NT was written in Greek. The Greek word for hell is Tarturus. Therefore, when Paul and Luke went to write about hell they used the Greek word for it. Its not a big secret. The idea was not borrowed. The idea of hell dates to the OT not just the NT.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Christianity did not borrow this belief. Have you ever stopped to consider that most of the NT was written in Greek. The Greek word for hell is Tarturus. Therefore, when Paul and Luke went to write about hell they used the Greek word for it. Its not a big secret. The idea was not borrowed. The idea of hell dates to the OT not just the NT.

But Tartarus was a Greek concept. If Christians were talking about a non-Pagan version of hell, they should have used a differendt word to describe a different place.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Christianity did not borrow this belief. Have you ever stopped to consider that most of the NT was written in Greek. The Greek word for hell is Tarturus. Therefore, when Paul and Luke went to write about hell they used the Greek word for it. Its not a big secret. The idea was not borrowed. The idea of hell dates to the OT not just the NT.

This was the Greek language that could have up to and over six versions of a word depending on its context, number and all the rest.

It would not have been hard for the authors to have adapted the word or formed a knew one.

After all - was Jesus going around talking about "Tarterus" - he wasn't speaking Greek so no. Numerous times throughout history scholars have found one language has appropriate words belonging to another in order to give slight difference. They have a comparable word in there own language (say Tarterus) but the thing they want to talk about is different (Christian Hell) - thus they will form a new word. Every culture did it.

Yet in this case they didn't. The chopped the Greek Tarturus and used it as hell. Which is a conversion tool. Use Pagan words, names, places, festivals, beliefs in a Christian context and people will be more susceptible to conversion Tarturus would be the tip of the ice berg for things Christianity took from Pagan religion.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Christianity did not borrow this belief. Have you ever stopped to consider that most of the NT was written in Greek. The Greek word for hell is Tarturus. Therefore, when Paul and Luke went to write about hell they used the Greek word for it. Its not a big secret. The idea was not borrowed. The idea of hell dates to the OT not just the NT. And how do you know who invented the concept of hell?

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
This was the Greek language that could have up to and over six versions of a word depending on its context, number and all the rest.

It would not have been hard for the authors to have adapted the word or formed a knew one.

After all - was Jesus going around talking about "Tarterus" - he wasn't speaking Greek so no. Numerous times throughout history scholars have found one language has appropriate words belonging to another in order to give slight difference. They have a comparable word in there own language (say Tarterus) but the thing they want to talk about is different (Christian Hell) - thus they will form a new word. Every culture did it.

Yet in this case they didn't. The chopped the Greek Tarturus and used it as hell. Which is a conversion tool. Use Pagan words, names, places, festivals, beliefs in a Christian context and people will be more susceptible to conversion Tarturus would be the tip of the ice berg for things Christianity took from Pagan religion.
Yes, but Tarturus is not the same as the Christian idea of hell. It is a synonym that conveys the meaning. The idea of hell was not borrowed.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Yes, but Tarturus is not the same as the Christian idea of hell. It is a synonym that conveys the meaning. The idea of hell was not borrowed.

Yet you have a pagan culture, the Greeks, who have their own concept of the afterlife - Tartarus and the rest.

Suddenly you have a a text floating about that mentions Tartarus. You are a pagan Greek who has always known about Tarturus. Now tell me - can you imagine the Christian preachers stopping in the middle of the preaching to explain "But we are only using the word Tartarus for linguistic purposes, our Tartarus is the true Tartarus, and it is different from your false Tartarus despite some striking similarities..."

The concept of a place of spiritual punishment was not unique in the ancient world, the Christian version was just another in a line of others, and it just happened to share the name with one of them.

If I was cynical I would think it was a conversion tool...

Then how do you explain the uncanny similarities between hell and Tarturus?

Originally posted by Alliance
Then how do you explain the uncanny similarities between hell and Tarturus?
It's a real place.

So Greek Animism is also correct?

Originally posted by Nellinator
It's a real place.

So who is to say the Greek Tartarus is not the real deal and the Christian hell is? Couldn't it be the other way round? After all the Greek Tartarus came first, by all accounts if anyone was accused of plagerism it would have to be the Christians in this example.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
So who is to say the Greek Tartarus is not the real deal and the Christian hell is? Couldn't it be the other way round? After all the Greek Tartarus came first, by all accounts if anyone was accused of plagerism it would have to be the Christians in this example.
Not really, Sheol was developed independently of the Greeks. Now since I and several others have shown that Sheol is comparable to the hell of the NT it should be logical to assume that the word Tartarus and Hades are simply synonyms used for it.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Not really, Sheol was developed independently of the Greeks. Now since I and several others have shown that Sheol is comparable to the hell of the NT it should be logical to assume that the word Tartarus and Hades are simply synonyms used for it.

Listen buddy...

Sit down, take a deep breath, and open your mind for a second...

The idea of a raging inferno where souls end up, called Tarturus, came from Greek Mythos and preceded the mythical legend of "Christian Hell"

You claim that Tarturus was used by the Greeks when they translated the scriptures...thereby you are blatantly admitting that the Bible has a mistranslation, and is therefore flawed and unreliable.

If the Bible is trying to convey Hell, then the terms TARTURUS and HADES should not be used. The bible should only use HELL and Satan/Lucifer

To straight out STEAL the idea of another mythology, and not even bother to REPLACE it with its own mythology shows a huge lack of laziness, invalidity, unoriginality, and unreliability...

Hell and Tarturus are similar concepts, Tarturus came first....

Just like the Elysian Fields preceded Christian Heaven....

There is no excuse for this Biblical plagarism. The Bible should be declared flawed, or otherwise be RE WRITTEN....

And JIA thanks for TOTALLY avoiding the subject !

I'd love to hear your defense ! You'd probably just continue ignoring me though, because you can't compose enough bullshit to disguise as an answer.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Listen buddy...

Sit down, take a deep breath, and open your mind for a second...

The idea of a raging inferno where souls end up, called Tarturus, came from Greek Mythos and preceded the mythical legend of "Christian Hell"

You claim that Tarturus was used by the Greeks when they translated the scriptures...thereby you are blatantly admitting that the Bible has a mistranslation, and is therefore flawed and unreliable.

If the Bible is trying to convey Hell, then the terms TARTURUS and HADES should not be used. The bible should only use HELL and Satan/Lucifer

To straight out STEAL the idea of another mythology, and not even bother to REPLACE it with its own mythology shows a huge lack of laziness, invalidity, unoriginality, and unreliability...

Hell and Tarturus are similar concepts, Tarturus came first....

Just like the Elysian Fields preceded Christian Heaven....

There is no excuse for this Biblical plagarism. The Bible should be declared flawed, or otherwise be RE WRITTEN....
You simply don't understand languages and translations. I will restate this for you. Sheol is hell in the OT. Sheol is not used in the NT. Why? Because the NT is written in Greek and/or Aramaic. I'm not up to date on my Aramaic, but the Greek word for hell would be Tarturus or Hades. That is why they are used. You should probably take the culture into account. The Jews who strictly followed the OT understood what Jesus was talking about: Sheol. The NT was written by people with knowledge of Greek and was written for all people. Since the Roman Empire used Greek it was written in Greek. People who knew Greek understood the concept of Tarturus. This simply made the matter simpler for spreading the gospel. Making up a new word in the Greek language for hell was not neccessary to pass on the concept.

Originally posted by Alliance
So Greek Animism is also correct?

Originally posted by Alliance

Didn't see that the first time.

To understand what I'm saying you need to know that I see a lot of archaelogical and anthropological evidence points to the worship of one god (or the worship of one god and his enemy) at the beginning of human religion. These seem to be the Mother Goddess of the Moon which is associated with magic and the other is more vague, but seems to support a more simple lifestyle. Now, if all religions are derived from this original religion and the concept of hell existed in it, it is logically to assume that all religions contain some grains of truth. That is one theory I have seen.

My personal fav theory is one involving Atlantis. If all religions were descended from Atlantis (which is thought to also have a dualist religion with the god of power 'Belial' being more dominant, which supposedly led to their downfall) then it is logical that all beliefs may hold some similar mythology. Therefore, animism could potentially have some truth in it. Sadly, I am not overly familiar with Greek animism and can't really comment on it.

What I'm saying is Tartarus is a Greek concept. It is seen in Greek myhtology before Christian mythology. If the concept of Hell is so correct that wehn writing in Greek the early Chritstians kep the concept of Tartarus, then we can assume that the Greek concept of hell is also correct, because its the same.

Originally posted by Alliance
What I'm saying is Tartarus is a Greek concept. It is seen in Greek myhtology before Christian mythology. If the concept of Hell is so correct that wehn writing in Greek the early Chritstians kep the concept of Tartarus, then we can assume that the Greek concept of hell is also correct, because its the same.
Not really. The concept is similar, but not the same. Also the idea of the Christian hell goes back to Sheol which can be dated to a very early date and independently of the Greeks. Therefore, while I believe that yes an eternal place of torment exists, the ideas of how one gets there are far too different.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Santana has always been one of my idols.

So I guess I'm going to Hell. It's the day of Mani. Everyone's going to hell.