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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061009/ap_on_re_as/koreas_nuclear

Yikes, if it's true, there's going to be hell in the next year or so

Yes. Somehow it astounds me that we don't know if a nuke has exploded or not.

It was more likely than not a Dirty Bomb, not a real Nuke, and exploded Underground, this only happened an hour or so ago, look at the time for the News Report, like 12 minutes

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061009/ap_on_re_as/koreas_nuclear

Yikes, if it's true, there's going to be hell in the next year or so

Why will there be?

Think about it for a second, yes it's a bit disconcerting that North Korea tested a device, but that's all they did. Both American and South Korean officials have said that they don't believe North Korea did this with any intent to start an escalation or any military reaction, and why would they? It's more or less them on their own.

It's in nobody's interest to have any nuclear conflict, and trustworthy or not, North Korean defense officials have said that they would never be the first to use nukes.

I admit, it's a bit dodgy, but I wouldn't start worrying yet. They've not weaponised it etc. Japan are the only ones going a bit mental, but their new leader has said he doesn't want a nuclear Japan, so there's no reason for them to do it. An arms race is the worst that could happen, and even then it's not suggesting war in any way.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Why will there be?

Think about it for a second, yes it's a bit disconcerting that North Korea tested a device, but that's all they did. Both American and South Korean officials have said that they don't believe North Korea did this with any intent to start an escalation or any military reaction, and why would they? It's more or less them on their own.

It's in nobody's interest to have any nuclear conflict, and trustworthy or not, North Korean defense officials have said that they would never be the first to use nukes.

I admit, it's a bit dodgy, but I wouldn't start worrying yet. They've not weaponised it etc. Japan are the only ones going a bit mental, but their new leader has said he doesn't want a nuclear Japan, so there's no reason for them to do it. An arms race is the worst that could happen, and even then it's not suggesting war in any way.

-AC

Perhaps, but if NK sells Nukes, *cough* Iran, Terrorists *cough*, then there's a big problem. They will also try and bully the other Nations, which could bring war

War is on the horizon......

They don't even have nukes, they tested a bomb. It's not weaponised, they didn't test multiple weapons, they tested a single one. So first of all, they don't even have any to sell.

There won't be any militant response from the US or whatever, it'll be argued over in the diplomatic arena.

As of right now, there's no reason to worry. There may be in future, but in future there may be many other things to worry about, or there may not. If it escalates, then worry, but not right now. This is precisely how administrations try to make people afraid, there's really no reason to be right now.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
They don't even have nukes, they tested a bomb. It's not weaponised, they didn't test multiple weapons, they tested a single one. So first of all, they don't even have any to sell.

There won't be any militant response from the US or whatever, it'll be argued over in the diplomatic arena.

As of right now, there's no reason to worry. There may be in future, but in future there may be many other things to worry about, or there may not. If it escalates, then worry, but not right now. This is precisely how administrations try to make people afraid, there's really no reason to be right now.

-AC

They apparently have the material to make 6 bombs, though I doubt they'll get the chance to make another, still frightening that they did it

It's official: North Korea admitted they tested a nuclear bomb.

Um...do we believe them?

No.

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
Perhaps, but if NK sells Nukes, *cough* Iran, Terrorists *cough*, then there's a big problem. They will also try and bully the other Nations, which could bring war

And maybe the sky will fall on your head tomorrow...

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
It's official: North Korea admitted they tested a nuclear bomb.

So? Its of no concern to anyone else, other countries can ***** about it as long as they want, but they dont govern NK.

disgust]
They havent broken any laws, havent started any wars, havent killed anyone, I dont see what the mass media fuss is all about. Just cause people dislike the idea, doesnt mean they cant do it.

It's not mushroom clouds they have in their sites, it's dollar signs.

It was not a dirty bomb, dirty bombs don't actually produce a fission or fusion reaction, they just spread radioactive material.

Most likely it was a successful nuclear test.

This however, is a far cry from an actual threat. anyone can set off a nuclear detonation in a controlled environment. North Korea is more than likely incapable of A. Storing nuclear warheads B. reliably delivering nuclear payload. C. Building a reliable altitude based detonator.

hell, the only nations with the current technology to fullfill those three criteria are the US and Israel. Not even the USSR perfected proper nuclear storage or detonation capabilities.
Is it possible for them to launch a successful nuclear attack?
yes
Is it likely?
not by a long shot.
how long will it take them to develope functional weaponry?
considering that china's been nuclear for at least 40 years and still has an very unreliable arsenal, probably 50 years.

Best strategy?
sit back, relax, and whatch kim jung il starve and bankrupt his own people until they do to him what the Italians did to mussollini cause that'll cost several trillions of dollars.

Even if they have hundreds of weaponised nukes I just can't take North Korea seriously after seeing Team America: World Police.

It's just that word; Nuclear. As soon as it's used, people panic.

-AC

its NOOKYL'R

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It's just that word; Nuclear. As soon as it's used, people panic.

-AC

Indeed - the only evidence of escalation I have seen is in certain people thinking this is somehow the worst thing that could happen and somehow signals a direct assult on the US and its allies (metaphorically which will in their minds lead to a physical one.)

After all - escalation is a two sided afair. It isn't escalation if N.K. simply tests a nuke. It is escalation if the rest of the world allows themselves to be goaded into rash hot headed reaction.


I really don't see the point of panic or fanatical cries of "N. Korea has proved they are a threat to the world. Bush should have taken them out instead of Iraq." (not on this forum yet, but on others) when it really shows how far away N.K. is from actually being in any posistion to use offensivly (though why they would is beyond me - theyN.K. government might be a lot of things but they aren't stupid.)



Why won't they get the chance to make another?

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
Perhaps, but if NK sells Nukes, *cough* Iran, Terrorists *cough*, then there's a big problem. They will also try and bully the other Nations, which could bring war

It's not even in Iran's best interest to nuke the west, they want to control our countries and convert them into Muslim territories. That can't be done if the land is inhospitable.

Well this was to be expected... Now there will be probably be a lot of fuss then nothing will happen until eventually the entire debate about the future of those weapons in NK start over.

Ay guey, Bush has called for "immediate U.N. action".

We all know where this is heading....

There won't be any war there. There's nothing in North Korea that the US wants control of...

Some worthless treaty that will say NK has to stop but name any sanctions then some more treaties that will name sanctions but not carry them out. Then a new treaty that will force all country's to carry out those sanctions which were already in place because of other treaty's.

And that all in the time span of just 5 short years...

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
There won't be any war there. There's nothing in North Korea that the US wants control of...

There isn't over 50,000 US troops in South Korea for nothing.

Sure there are... NK won't move against SK, and SK won't against NK... Simple as that, it's just like the cold war only far less global.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
There isn't over 50,000 US troops in South Korea for nothing.

They've been there for a long while, and they're there as a preventive measure. The last thing Bush wants is to have to support the rebuilding of a whole country that has very little in the way of natural rescources. There's no strategic economic advantage there for him or his pals, so it's just not going to happen.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
There isn't over 50,000 US troops in South Korea for nothing.

Damn its like you want war to happen. Its not in there interest to start anything. America, China, Japan, Russia and South Korea and other countries are all against N. Korea going nuclear. Damn when have you seen so many countries agree on the samething. N. Korea has no allies.

I was stationed in Incheon in '96; trust me its more than just some diplomatic statement. Its to keep the commies in-check, since we screwed over the Japs after WWII, someone has to do it. I firmly believe that if the Japanese weren't so shafted, NK wouldn't be nearly as a concern as it is right now.

Plus, the US has this "Who's gonna stop us!" attitude, so I'm not to sure of what all this will become.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Damn its like you want war to happen.

No I don't.

With all that money wasted on testing. Kim coulda have fed a lot of his people.

With all that money Bush has spent on wars under false pretences he could have fed a lot of...the world.

I see your point.

But we're not talking about Bush. We talking North Korea. Shifting the argument to another Anti-american politics doesn't help nor is very on topic.

Quick edit...glad you saw my point.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Ay guey, Bush has called for "immediate U.N. action".

We all know where this is heading....

Odd that he would call for the UN to get involved, when their irrelevance was so highly touted in the lead-up to Iraq. And we KNOW North Korea has weapons. It just illustrates the total idiocy of this president and his administration.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
But we're not talking about Bush. We talking North Korea. Shifting the argument to another Anti-american politics doesn't help nor is very on topic.

Well, actually it acts as a balance to your post. It puts things in perspective.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Quick edit...glad you saw my point.

Yeah, sadly you missed mine.

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061009/ap_on_re_as/koreas_nuclear

Yikes, if it's true, there's going to be hell in the next year or so

Hell? I think not....

China will simply blow North Korea off the map if they try anything, I don't think North Korea will survive if it's only real Ally goes against them. The west are too chicken shit to stand up to China so I believe that is as far as it'll go...

Bye, bye North Korea.

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
Well, actually it acts as a balance to your post. It puts things in perspective.

I don't feel the need for balance when we're talking about a direct certain subject. In this case one specific negative. The other negative can be discuss in their perspective threads.

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
Yeah, sadly you missed mine.

Never sadly....just better late than never.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
I don't feel the need for balance when we're talking about a direct certain subject. In this case one specific negative. The other negative can be discuss in their perspective threads.

thats ridiculous. you imply that people cant point out hypocrisy in foreign policy relations unless there's a "hypocrisy in foreign policy relations" thread????

North Korea...Nuclear tests...you can imply as you like. Topic is the former two I mention.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
North Korea...Testing Missiles...you can imply as you like. Topic is the former two I mention.

you brought up using the money to feed citizens.

yet nobody can point out the selective discrimination of such a philosophy?

Yes, because food is more important than nuclear testing. Specially for a country like North Korea. That was my direct point. My honest opinion remains. Kim could really use the money to feed his people.

and i wholeheartedly agree. however bloated military spending in spite of poverty is our problem as well. so if you bring up a point like that, and someone counters it by pointing out such a selective philosophy and that we have the same backward sense of priority, that doesnt equate to a thread hijacking.

:edit: but i guess this exchange does, so i guess ill leave it at that

I think the problem is pretty much general world wide. The military needs to test stuff...cost money...etc. This isn't the first nor the last time we will see such things. Also, no one has been accuse of thread hijacking. If that was the case then you would see me in my usual "Back on topic." suggestion.


late edit again..damn the last minute decisions.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
I was stationed in Incheon in '96; trust me its more than just some diplomatic statement. Its to keep the commies in-check, since we screwed over the Japs after WWII, someone has to do it. I firmly believe that if the Japanese weren't so shafted, NK wouldn't be nearly as a concern as it is right now.

Plus, the US has this "Who's gonna stop us!" attitude, so I'm not to sure of what all this will become.

Yeah but that dont mean there gonna attack N.Korea. Anyway I hope not.

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
War is on the horizon......

Originally posted by ladygrim


no no no no no no.

Originally posted by PVS
bloated military spending

I lol'd

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Ay guey, Bush has called for "immediate U.N. action".

We all know where this is heading....

No where, that is where.

The US can rush to the UN when they feel like playing decent member state but it doesn't mean much.

Draft resolution in process - it is expected to be soundly defeated if it gets to the vote by both Russia and China, both of which do trading with N. Korea worth low billions. Sanctions would potentially destroy N. Korea's already buggered economy. China and Russia don't want that.

Nor China does not want military conflict on its border, nor does it wish to face a refugee crisis as starving N. Koreans flee (since it is pretty much assumed sanctions won't bother Kim as he will let the people starve to keep his military supported.)

The US lacks sufficient global kudos points to launch another unilateral war (which is what it would be without provocation or UN support) - Blair by all accounts is on his way out within the next year with those waiting in the wings expressing aims and policy less geared towards US interest and more Europeans ones, Blair is essentially a lame duck in terms of keeping the views he fostered going. In Australia recent polling has shown a massive swing away from both Iraq and support of US foreign policy - the majority apparently wants the troops out - a feeling that was boosted by the report that claims Iraq has only compounded the terrorist threat. John Howard has already said he intends to contend the next election which is close - most Australian commentators agree that Iraq will be dangerous to him, and if he went to hard after Korea it might be even more detrimental for chances of re-election.

Really, if all this political commentary is correct, and since most are saying the same thing, there will be a lot of sabre rattling and Bush talking about escalation and tension, but it is unlikely anything will really come from it.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
I think the problem is pretty much general world wide. The military needs to test stuff...cost money...etc. This isn't the first nor the last time we will see such things.

If that's the case, then why did you make your post in the first place? If it's a general problem, why did you make it North Korea specific? Unless, you were trying to make a cute analogy about how great America is...Which is why I pointed out your hypocrisy in the first place.


Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Also, no one has been accuse of thread hijacking. If that was the case then you would see me in my usual "Back on topic." suggestion.

You're suffering from some of the same symptons as the administration you appear to love. Maybe you should read this again:

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Shifting the argument to another Anti-american politics doesn't help nor is very on topic.

All this can be cleared up by a simple acknowledgment that you made a mistake. Don't follow your leader again...

I know people rattle on about Bush being mad, Jong-Il being mad, but it comes back to a very simple point; Nobody wants a nuclear conflict, nobody. I'd put that out of your mind as a possibility at all.

As said, the problem if anything is that North Korea would sell to terrorists, but that's only if they need the cash, which hopefully won't happen if China keep funding them. This is probably going to create lots of tension and, as Samura said, nothing more.

-AC

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
If that's the case, then why did you make your post in the first place? If it's a general problem, why did you make it North Korea specific? Unless, you were trying to make a cute analogy about how great America is...Which is why I pointed out your hypocrisy in the first place.

Just giving my take and view on NK. The topic IS on NK...can't be much more clear than that. I'm not even mention america. You are...and make assumptions that are not even present.

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo

You're suffering from some of the same symptons as the administration you appear to love. Maybe you should read this again:

And you're suffering from too much anti-american politics hatred. To the point in which any comment or even opinion you see on foreign politics you want to take and re-direct to American politics. You're driving the car without brakes bound to crash.

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
All this can be cleared up by a simple acknowledgment that you made a mistake. Don't follow your leader again...

Take my comments with a pinch of salt. Take my warnings with a spoonful of salt.

Now Back on the topic of North Korea Nuclear Test.

it was just a rebuttal to your point on backwards priorities (warfare over citizens)
i guess when you stretch it past that it becomes redundant and pointless, but in itself, he had a valid point. and even if he's a crazed anti-american, a broken clock still tells the correct time twice a day.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I know people rattle on about Bush being mad, Jong-Il being mad, but it comes back to a very simple point; Nobody wants a nuclear conflict, nobody. I'd put that out of your mind as a possibility at all.

there is the insanity factor, of which kim is suspect. its clear that he doesnt fear the u.s., as well he shouldnt since bush wants no part of a korean conflict. however he does fear china, and the u.s. is china's most important client with regards to trading. but...like i say there is the insanity factor, and who knows how far kim is willing to go to prove...whatever the hell he's trying to prove.

I still don't see a reason for my comment is to be the highlight of the thread. Can we just move pass that and return to the topic...this is getting old enough and I don't want to strech it. And just like any clock they must follow the timezones or they will give you the wrong time. Back to NK nuclear testing.

kim wears platform shoes

Team America can take care of it!

http://blog.lordsutch.com/local/billboard2.jpg

Rumsfeld's North Korea Connection

What did Donald Rumsfeld know about ABB's deal to build nuclear reactors there? And why won't he talk about it?

(The background to this is in Tales from the Time Loop)

'... there is no clear public record of his views on the controversial 1994 deal in which the U.S. agreed to provide North Korea with two light-water nuclear reactors in exchange for Pyongyang ending its nuclear weapons program. What's even more surprising about Rumsfeld's silence is that he sat on the board of the company that won a $200 million contract to provide the design and key components for the reactors.

The company is Zurich-based engineering giant ABB, which signed the contract in early 2000, well before Rumsfeld gave up his board seat and joined the Bush administration.'

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2003/05/12/342316/index.htm





China urges UN action on North Korea

http://www.davidicke.com/images/stories/October1%202006/koreaprotestap.jpg
South Korean protesters burn a defaced North Korean flag

'North Korea's claim sparked angry protests in the South China has called for "appropriate" UN action over North Korea's claim to have carried out a nuclear test on Monday. Beijing - traditionally Pyongyang's closest ally - said it had not ruled out UN sanctions but that military action was "unimaginable".'
......................


Funny how China publicly condemns North Korea when it wouldn't sneeze without China's permission. Do you think by any chance there may be more to know??

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6036129.stm

Rolling Blunder

'How the Bush administration let North Korea get nukes'

'The White House stood by and did nothing. Why did George W. Bush--his foreign policy avowedly devoted to stopping "rogue regimes" from acquiring weapons of mass destruction--allow one of the world's most dangerous regimes to acquire the makings of the deadliest WMDs?

Given the current mayhem and bloodshed in Iraq, it's hard to imagine a decision more ill-conceived than invading that country unilaterally without a plan for the "post-war" era. But the Bush administration's inept diplomacy toward North Korea might well have graver consequences.'

This was no 'mistake' or 'blunder'. It was calculated design.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0405.kaplan.html

Yesss more copy and pasting of speculation from Deano.


The UN isnt gonna do shit. They are good for nothing.

Originally posted by PVS
there is the insanity factor, of which kim is suspect. its clear that he doesnt fear the u.s., as well he shouldnt since bush wants no part of a korean conflict. however he does fear china, and the u.s. is china's most important client with regards to trading. but...like i say there is the insanity factor, and who knows how far kim is willing to go to prove...whatever the hell he's trying to prove.

I agree the man seems a bit off kilter, but I genuinely don't believe he's stupid enough to engage in military conflict first, and as dumb as Bush is, neither is he.

It's disconcerting, naturally, but I just dislike all the "OH NO WORLD WAR 3!" people.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I agree the man seems a bit off kilter, but I genuinely don't believe he's stupid enough to engage in military conflict first, and as dumb as Bush is, neither is he.

It's disconcerting, naturally, but I just dislike all the "OH NO WORLD WAR 3!" people.

-AC

Completely true, no nuclear power is stupid enough to start a war with another nuclear power. It could end their own lives, and in the case of America the lives of many of their allies.

I think they exploded a conventional weapon and claimed it was a nuke in order to get respect after thier failed missile programm.

Neverthelss the "toothless" UN will probably impose some pointless sanctions so the appear to be doing something. Nothing was done when India and Pakistan aquired nukes, a lot of saber rattling but now they are accepted.

All a big cloud of nothing imo

you would think that if they really did detonate an atomic bomb, they would make sure to have undisputable proof of it. perhaps it is indeed a hoax.

Originally posted by PVS
you would think that if they really did detonate an atomic bomb, they would make sure to have undisputable proof of it. perhaps it is indeed a hoax.

Meh , Geiger counters show very little...apparently it shall take ' Two weeks' to notice whether or not a Nuclear weapon was used ...

Originally posted by PVS
kim wears platform shoes

That fool lacks style in all respects: hair, glasses, clothes...

and as with every other problem the nation faces, the looney right (and their newest spokesman john mccain) have come to the same brilliant conclusion:

its all clinton's fault

http://movies.crooksandliars.com/CNN-McCain-blame.mov




SNOWBALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by PVS
and as with every other problem the nation faces, the looney right (and their newest spokesman john mccain) have come to the same brilliant conclusion:

its all clinton's fault

http://movies.crooksandliars.com/CNN-McCain-blame.mov




SNOWBALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is his fault though...he gave him supplies to build Nukes, Money, and a free ticket to build these. A sad view of today is that Negotiation really works with Insane people, it doesn't

I'm more worried about zombies than nuclear war......or maybe zombies brought on by nuclear war.....good times.

Originally posted by BackFire
I'm more worried about zombies than nuclear war......or maybe zombies brought on by nuclear war.....good times.

Prepare your bunker! What kills Zombies hmmmmm

Love kills them. Wonderful, filthy, wet love.

Originally posted by PVS
there is the insanity factor, of which kim is suspect. its clear that he doesnt fear the u.s., as well he shouldnt since bush wants no part of a korean conflict. however he does fear china, and the u.s. is china's most important client with regards to trading. but...like i say there is the insanity factor, and who knows how far kim is willing to go to prove...whatever the hell he's trying to prove.

I have heard a lot on both sides, but really I tend to agree that Kim is far from insane.

Certain political commentators have noted in the past few days how many western commentators like to portray him as a clown, an oddball, a fool, when actual study of him shows that is far from the case.

He has eccentricities most certainly (like any political leader), but everything else seems to support that in terms of political acumen he is quite canny and in touch which the necessities of controlling the state. If anything the world underestimates him based upon his eccentricities. And it would be agreed that underestimating such a man would be dangerous. It is one of those situations where a fearful character has been given the humor treatment, but it has gone to far and now for many it is impossible to reconcile him as anything other then an unbalanced despot. Will he sell weapons to terrorists? He hasn't yet, and there is no reason to believe he will.

And I have heard of lot about this in the last few hours - yes, Korea detonated a nuclear device. However they apparently have no means of attaching one to a missile (and wont for some time) - yet media commentators appear to overlook this - the risk from nuclear attack is greatly reduced if it can't actually be fired.



Maybe zombies that run around shooting nukes from their mouths.

We've been through the "Cold War," this is small time.blowup

Originally posted by PVS
and as with every other problem the nation faces, the looney right (and their newest spokesman john mccain) have come to the same brilliant conclusion:

Remember when McCain was respected by people from both parties. Remember when we all thought he was genuine and a decent guy.





Ahhhh....remember when.............

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
I have heard a lot on both sides, but really I tend to agree that Kim is far from insane.

Certain political commentators have noted in the past few days how many western commentators like to portray him as a clown, an oddball, a fool, when actual study of him shows that is far from the case.

He has eccentricities most certainly (like any political leader), but everything else seems to support that in terms of political acumen he is quite canny and in touch which the necessities of controlling the state. If anything the world underestimates him based upon his eccentricities. And it would be agreed that underestimating such a man would be dangerous. It is one of those situations where a fearful character has been given the humor treatment, but it has gone to far and now for many it is impossible to reconcile him as anything other then an unbalanced despot. Will he sell weapons to terrorists? He hasn't yet, and there is no reason to believe he will.

And I have heard of lot about this in the last few hours - yes, Korea detonated a nuclear device. However they apparently have no means of attaching one to a missile (and wont for some time) - yet media commentators appear to overlook this - the risk from nuclear attack is greatly reduced if it can't actually be fired.

Kim-jon-Il is insane, in both meanings of the word, 1.)He's a Tyrannical Dictator worse than Hitler(except he doesn't invade people)
2.)If you look at his personal life, he's a nut, he thinks Donald Duck is the greatest Comedian of all time, has a "brigade" of like 12 year olds that he has sex with, among other weird things, huge list

I think the entire human race will be wiped out by nuclear warfare. It's scary.

Are people really this STUPID? A hoax? you guy's think this is fake?
Alot of you talk the line like you actually think you know more than the government.

You guy's are not the solution, your the f*cking problem.
STOP BEING THE DAMN PROBLEM!

The nuke is real, the threat is realer. Kji is threatning to use there nuclear power for destruction, not improved power. ISNT THAT CLEAR.

If you really think it's all a Lie. If you really think the Twin tower was a conspiracy. Look into yourself. The tower's aint there anymore. Our friend's died that day.

I am a millitary family, and I have over 20 ex Millitary men working under me. This threat is real.

Stop letting them control us. Its "WE THE PEOPLE"

But no, let's just blow this off like we have with Terrorism already.

So without reading this thread, who's bombing who first? I'm really a bottom line kind of guy.

Originally posted by S.C.U.D DF

But no, let's just blow this off like we have with Terrorism already.

are you sure? well...........ok...i guess

The only thing that is scary, is the new era of people coming up, dumb democrats that think the War is pointless.

You know what will happen if we pull out. You know, which is enough proof for me that the democratic party doesnt care about my life or any other.

Our revenue is at record high. Our economy is ok, its our security that we need to be worried about.

Originally posted by PVS
are you sure? well...........ok...i guess

Definatly! More tea please.

this has been said for ages:

World War Three in Brief

A Three World War scenario was developed several decades ago (see Conspiratorial History). Two World Wars have already been achieved, and the Third and final World War envisions an attack on Iraq, Iran and/or Syria as being the trigger to set the entire Middle East into fiery conflagration. Once America is firmly entrenched into the Middle East with the majority of her first-line units, North Korea is to attack South Korea. Then, with America's forces stretched well beyond the limit, China is to invade Taiwan. This will usher in the start of World War Three.

www.threeworldwars.com

Originally posted by Deano
this has been said for ages:

World War Three in Brief

A Three World War scenario was developed several decades ago (see Conspiratorial History). Two World Wars have already been achieved, and the Third and final World War envisions an attack on Iraq, Iran and/or Syria as being the trigger to set the entire Middle East into fiery conflagration. Once America is firmly entrenched into the Middle East with the majority of her first-line units, North Korea is to attack South Korea. Then, with America's forces stretched well beyond the limit, China is to invade Taiwan. This will usher in the start of World War Three.

www.threeworldwars.com


Thats such a huge "what if" scenario I wanna stab my eyes out for reading it.

Originally posted by S.C.U.D DF
The only thing that is scary, is the new era of people coming up, dumb democrats that think the War is pointless.

You know what will happen if we pull out. You know, which is enough proof for me that the democratic party doesnt care about my life or any other.

Our revenue is at record high. Our economy is ok, its our security that we need to be worried about.

quote a single democrat which ever said that we should just pull out. like "kthxbye" and just leave. all that was suggested by anyone was an exit strategy, as opposed to permanent occupation, a conclusion of which i can play strawman and throw at you, but how can we "stand united" if we all pull that crap?

its sad that someone has to demonise half their american peers as not caring about their lives, while hypocritically stating that we should all be united.

well, ill leave it at that before im accused of flaming and harassment again

Originally posted by PVS

well, ill leave it at that before im accused of flaming and harassment again


Yeah, noticed that in your sig.

What happened, one of the mods get on your case for all the GOP "knob-polisher" comments?




While they were good for keeping an argument going, I never took personal offense.

Just curious, but what happened to get you a warning?

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Yeah, noticed that in your sig.

What happened, one of the mods get on your case for all the GOP "knob-polisher" comments?




While they were good for keeping an argument going, I never took personal offense.

Just curious, but what happened to get you a warning?

actually that had nothing to do with it, and sorry to say, neither did you.
but lets leave it at that, k?

Originally posted by PVS
actually that had nothing to do with it, and sorry to say, neither did you.
but lets leave it at that, k?

Very well, so how bout it?

Clinton set those N. Korea boys up real nice didn't he, given 'em all the tools to build nooks and what not......

the agreement proposed to be brought to them during the clinton administration was for NK to replace its already existant technology with light reactor technology, which cannot be used to create nuclear weapons. mccain is a fat lying whore, preying on the gullibility of people who just want a simple answer to a very complicated situation.

read up instead of blowing hot air about things you know nothing about.
i must admit it has my head spinning as well, but im not acting like i know the answers for certain, and certainly am not repeating verbatim, lies spun by a politician

http://www.isis-online.org/publications/dprk/book/af.html

http://www.army.mil/professionalwriting/volumes/volume1/august_2003/8_03_1.html

what disturbs me the most is how eager people are to swallow those lies and crap out even greater lies which were never even hinted at by bush or the new saint mccain...because they are completely false of course:

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
It is his fault though...he gave him supplies to build Nukes,

Originally posted by sithsaber408


Clinton set those N. Korea boys up real nice didn't he, given 'em all the tools to build nooks and what not......

lies. nothing more than lies. you should both feel ashamed, though im sure you wont.

I was just kidding.

I think that little commie just screwed Clinton, taking the deal and using it for his own purposes.

I doubt that Clinton could guess that a nuke program would come out of the light energy water reactors.

I think the more pressing question should be: what now?

Originally posted by sithsaber408


I was just kidding.

oh, thank god you were just kidding. for a minute i thought you were willing to make up a complete lie that its possible to create weapons from light reactor technology...*sigh of relief*

Originally posted by sithsaber408
I think that little commie just screwed Clinton, taking the deal and using it for his own purposes.

I doubt that Clinton could guess that a nuke program would come out of the light energy water reactors.

so, then you turn around and tell the same lie. oh you were kidding again, right?

Originally posted by sithsaber408
I think the more pressing question should be: what now?

yes, what now? do you continue consciously spreading a lie? or do you seek out the truth? it requires reading, not listening, to me, mccain, bush, clinton, or anyone. research it ffs

Democrats are so funny. Can you make up your mind.
First Bush doesnt know what he is doing because he is at war with Iraq. Then it's his fault cause HE let North Korea get this far ahead.

This isnt Bushes Fault. This is the Democrats fault.

Democrat's admit to trying to pre-occupy bush from Iraq for the past 2 years. But at the same time, it's his fault that North Korea test a nuke.

PVS... talk about Hypocricy. Yet, you Hyprocriticly blame Bush for Clinton's doings. Talk about someone pulling Crap out there Ass.

You follow a party with no will nor morals. But, yet still insist that The Bush Administration is a lie. That they are hidding top secret's. Yea man. Alien's already landed, we just havnt told you yet.

PVS.. since everyone else is lying on this forum.

Why dont you shed some light on the truth.

Originally posted by PVS

lies. nothing more than lies. you should both feel ashamed, though im sure you wont.

As much as I liked Clinton, what they said isn't completely false. The light water reactors cannot be used to create nuclear weapons, that is correct. But under Clinton's plan, the N. Koreans we're provided with uranium, they were handed hundreds of millions in aid (which most likely Kim Jong-Il used for military purposes) and it completely went against the J. Carter agreement.

I do think Clinton did have the best intentions when he authorized the policy, but it blew up in his face. But the Republicans must also realize, this isn't new news, Bush had 5+ years to do something about N. Korea & Kim Jong-Il and he didn't.

:edit: not directed at robtard


im sorry, but who's point are you arguing? and is arguments based on lies and straw man bashing all anyone has to throw on the table?

Originally posted by S.C.U.D DF
This is the Democrats fault.

Democrat's admit to trying to pre-occupy bush from Iraq for the past 2 years. But at the same time, it's his fault that North Korea test a nuke.

nobody faults bush for anything but scrapping the agreement in which all nuclear fuel in NK was kept under lock and key under the supervision of international instectors. once he cried "axis of evil" and broke off all aid, kim threw out the inspectors and began building his bomb. so ultimately its kim's fault for building the damn thing, and in part bush's fault for not producing a clear reason why he scrapped the agreement. the true reason why the agreement was scrapped was because NK went about research for uranium enrichment. however all nuclear fuel was locked down as agreed upon.

why must people oversimplfy everything to the point of a lie? i mean ffs, as much as i explain, i am oversimplifying as well. but to say "ITS THE DEMOCRATS FAULT" is....WOW dude.

Originally posted by Robtard
As much as I liked Clinton, what they said isn't completely false. The light water reactors cannot be used to create nuclear weapons, that is correct. But under Clinton's plan, the N. Koreans we're provided with uranium, they were handed hundreds of millions in aid (which most likely Kim Jong-Il used for military purposes) and it completely went against the J. Carter agreement.

I do think Clinton did have the best intentions when he authorized the policy, but it blew up in his face. But the Republicans must also realize, this isn't new news, Bush had 5+ years to do something about N. Korea & im Jong-Il and he didn't.

NK had already developed enriched plutonium. that was the whole point of the agreement. it was to have NK scrap their existing reactors, which could be used duelly for power and for weapons grade plutonium develpment, and replace it with light reactor technology (which by the way never passed in the senate, so no technology at all was sent).

what was left was basically an agreement that NK keep its existing enriched plutonium locked up and supervised by inspectors, continue with its existing program while not enriching plutonium (only one use for that) all in exchange for us throwing money and food at them. yeah, it was sloppy, i know, but the fact stands that we did not supply them with weapons grade plutonium.

the fact is that clinton and bush only managed to halt and then begin again the inevitable. NK never needed help nor our uranium to produce enriched plutonium. they already produced it.

Wait wait wait. First it's Bushes fault... now it's Kind of Bushes fault.

To the extremes of blaming the demo party was out of line.
It was the U.N that decided to scrap the program.

But let's jump to now. Bush is stating that, he has no intention's of taking action on NK via attack. He did call for a U.N meeting to take civil action. His actions are to protect us as Americans. The Democrats now want to fight that Bush is slacking, and that North Korea krept up in the Nuclear program, while Bush was obsessing over Terrorism.

Now let's keep this key to Terrorism. Bush Administration is taking action on Terrorism by sending in troops to HELP the country work there shit out/ keep there ruler from mass Genociding it's own people. Now, all of a sudden this war is terrible. We need to get out, and worry about our own shit here, is what the Demo party is claiming.

CONTRADICTION. So this is Loose Loose for bush in the eye's of the Democrats. If Bush pushes and persues War on Terrorism. Your mad and throw sh*t fits cause were at war and that we should be more worried about our homeland. But, then Bush isnt doing enough because he cant keep his focus large enough on the WHOLE subject/north korea.

Please again make up your mind.

Originally posted by PVS
oh, thank god you were just kidding. for a minute i thought you were willing to make up a complete lie that its possible to create weapons from light reactor technology...*sigh of relief*



so, then you turn around and tell the same lie. oh you were kidding again, right?



yes, what now? do you continue consciously spreading a lie? or do you seek out the truth? it requires reading, not listening, to me, mccain, bush, clinton, or anyone. research it ffs

Was going to respond to clarify, but Robtard already posted it.

I meant that Clinton couldn't know that a nuke program would come out of the deal for the light water reactors, not that he took those and developed nuclear weapons.


Either way, I'm not blaming him.


McCain is right however, that the time for talking is over.

We've done negotiated with them, giving millions of dollars and uranium (for peace-worthy efforts) and they took it and developed nukes that the little bastard Kim wants to use as leverage.

If harsh U.N. sanctions don't deter him (and they probably won't) why should we think that some promise made in a negotiation with us would?

Especially now that he HAS nuclear capabilities. (limited though they may be)


And Robtard, Bush DID do something.


He cut them off, from aid and from talks, which is what Clinton agreed to give him in exchange for not having a nuke program.

Kim violated that agreement, and Bush responded by terminating the agreement.

Short of boots on the ground, or a missle war, he's done everything possible, appealing to N. Korea's neighbors or the U.N. to settle this.

Now that those options are seemingly all about to have been played out, we'll have to see Bush's next move to judge if he's "doing nothing" about it.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
giving millions of dollars and uranium

clintons light water rector plan involved supplying them with uranium, but like i said that never passed the senate (i believe it was robtard who pointed out the conflict which halted it). so ill ask for any proof that uranium was supplied to NK by the US. an article....something. ill take a wiki link even. anything. go. search.

I dont think anyone would like to be in Bushes Shoe's. There is a whole picture here that is being painted that aint looking so well. America is getting attack from almost all shores. Democrats in America are Blaming bush for making our America look like the "Increadible HULK".

Decisions need to be made. Hard decisions. And now when we need it most, some of our allies are pissing there pants.

Russia, and most of Europe are sh*ting themselves. They notice that we are at war, and they are goign to try to take us from under the table.

Originally posted by PVS
clintons light water rector plan involved supplying them with uranium, but like i said that never passed the senate (i believe it was robtard who pointed out the conflict which halted it). so ill ask for any proof that uranium was supplied to NK by the US. an article....something. ill take a wiki link even. anything. go. search.

Prove to us that we didnt. We dont need to supply shit. Your the one with the accusations.

what are my accusations?
please, you're only pointing your finger and not making any sense doing it.
counter the facts or be silent.

Originally posted by PVS
clintons light water rector plan involved supplying them with uranium, but like i said that never passed the senate (i believe it was robtard who pointed out the conflict which halted it). so ill ask for any proof that uranium was supplied to NK by the US. an article....something. ill take a wiki link even. anything. go. search.

ok, then take out the word uranium.

Anything else to be said about my post, which had 6 or 7 other points to it?

(this one still stands anyway, since I was arguing that out of the Clinton deal, N. Korea was sneaky and developed nukes anyway. Not that we helped them build them)

I must assume that you brought the point up for clarification purposes only, since it has little to do with the ultimate point of the post.

But thanks for keeping me on the straight and narrow.

all that is left of your points is that under clinton the u.s. decided to throw money at NK to keep them from continuing their use production of weapons grade enriched plutonium (yes i know thats redundant).

and you are correct. but whats your point?

the point i made is that it was working and the plutonium remained locked and supervised. once bush broke the deal, and the money stopped, kim resumed weapons building.

thats not the "blame game", thats history. clinton threw a bandaid on it and bush ripped the band aid off. no heros in this story, unless you're a deluded bush fan boy

No, no heroes.

But I was under the impression that Bush stopped the deal because N. Korea was still pursuing nukes.


You are saying then that the deal Clinton put in place was working and that they were only developing nukes after Bush put a halt on the deal?

Originally posted by sithsaber408
No, no heroes.

But I was under the impression that Bush stopped the deal because N. Korea was still pursuing nukes.


You are saying then that the deal Clinton put in place was working and that they were only developing nukes after Bush put a halt on the deal?

no, i am saying, and have said, that the 'nukes' were produced already. clinton struck this deal to keep the ENRICHED PLUTONIUM which was ALREADY DEVELOPED----->unused. dude, its a complicated situation i know, but this part is simple. there was no need for them to pursue. NK had already leaped the greatest hurdle in nuclear weapons production.

and yes, NK CONTINUED developing nuclear weapons after the deal was shredded (to the best of anyone's knowledge, of course)

Got it.

Thanks.


So yeah, the Presidents did what they could (I guess) and it wasn't good enough to stop him, since he had developed weapons before, during, and after the deal.


Again, McCain is right: Time for talking is over. It isn't getting us anywhere, since Kim is a little dipshit that's gonna do whatever he wants to, talks or not.

we have no resources to go to war with korea. all we can do is lean on china, which bush has consistantly said...well he calls it "diplomacy"

This isnt about resources. This is about life. They could be the largest oil or diamond resource in the world. The fact that they are Making Bomb's to "KILL" is reason to at least check the shit out.

We all know if democrat's get into the House then. What are they going to do? The exact damn thing the republicans have been doing. But with a larger budget decreas. I dont know if this will be a big enough warning for the republicans to get there head's out there ass and get down to buisness either. It's a throw.

k

Originally posted by S.C.U.D DF
This isnt about resources. This is about life. They could be the largest oil or diamond resource in the world. The fact that they are Making Bomb's to "KILL" is reason to at least check the shit out. Originally posted by S.C.U.D DF
We all know if democrat's get into the House then. What are they going to do? The exact damn thing the republicans have been doing. But with a larger budget decreas. I dont know if this will be a big enough warning for the republicans to get there head's out there ass and get down to buisness either. It's a throw.

Stop screwing up the threads WHOB.

Stay on topic if you wanna post in here.

Where did this S.C.U.D guy come from?

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
Where did this S.C.U.D guy come from?

I think G.W. Bush shat him out and it was a mean one...

Originally posted by S.C.U.D DF
This isnt about resources. This is about life. They could be the largest oil or diamond resource in the world. The fact that they are Making Bomb's to "KILL" is reason to at least check the shit out.

If by "check this shit out" you mean, as the President is urging, let the UN get involved; why should the UN get involved? What I don't understand is that the UN was inept and useless before the Iraq war, but they're our best option now?

The vote to allow the President to use force against Iraq said the President was supposed to get concuring evidence from the UN. Since they didn't agree with the war the President made them out to be useless and outdated. Now he's calling on them for help. But, why? I thought they were a failed organization that had outlived it's usefulness.

Your ole boy Bush can't have it both ways.

Considering the North Koreans are now saying they'll take continued pressure as a declaration of war, I'd say we just hope Bush isn't as dumb as we hope.

-AC

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
Where did this S.C.U.D guy come from?

perhaps a whob sock?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Considering the North Koreans are now saying they'll take continued pressure as a declaration of war, I'd say we just hope Bush isn't as dumb as we hope.

-AC

That's a great policy, a bully threatens and you tuck tail and run.

I generally agree with that, France has nuclear weapons and they don't get on with America at all..

So why isn't America hitting the roof about that?

Its just because emerging powers are viewed as junior states and the in the case of North Korea the boundaries between rogue and emerging have been made blurred by western media

He could be dangerous, but i think the nuclear deterrant works, no one wants to wipe the world out in one go... we'd all much prefer to do it by polluting it till its uninhabitable, basically so we can ignore it for longer

You can't ignore a mushroom cloud!

Originally posted by Jayflip
I generally agree with that, France has nuclear weapons and they don't get on with America at all..

So why isn't America hitting the roof about that?

Its just because emerging powers are viewed as junior states and the in the case of North Korea the boundaries between rogue and emerging have been made blurred by western media

He could be dangerous, but i think the nuclear deterrant works, no one wants to wipe the world out in one go... we'd all much prefer to do it by polluting it till its uninhabitable, basically so we can ignore it for longer

You can't ignore a mushroom cloud!

For one France is lead by a stable government, it's head of state is level headed and France isn't likely to go ahead and sell a nuke to religious zealots with a death wish.

Do I think Kim Jong-Il will launch a nuke at Hawaii or S. Korea himself? No, he knows that would be the end of N. Korea, but I can see him selling nukes to the highest bidder, no matter who the bidder is.

Originally posted by Robtard
That's a great policy, a bully threatens and you tuck tail and run.

I'm not saying they should tuck their tails and run, but North Korea saying "We have nuclear capability, back off or we'll take it as you declaring war." is a lot different than "I'll punch you.".

I stand by what I said before, I believe there will be tension and then nothing major, but as PVS pointed out, Kim Jong-Il is a nutter.

-AC

Originally posted by Robtard
For one France is lead by a stable government, it's head of state is level headed and France isn't likely to go ahead and sell a nuke to religious zealots with a death wish.

Do I think Kim Jong-Il will launch a nuke at Hawaii or S. Korea himself? No, he knows that would be the end of N. Korea, but I can see him selling nukes to the highest bidder, no matter who the bidder is.

As much as I would agree that France is someone to be trusted to not use nuclear weapons, I must disagree on you about France selling nukes to religious fantics. Most likely, France is one of the main corprets of selling WMDs to Iran, Iraq, and other middle-eastern countries.

Though France itself may not launch their own nukes, the irony in that statement is all to sweet when they sell off their own weapons.

Originally posted by Phoenix2001
Though France itself may not launch their own nukes, the irony in that statement is all to sweet when they sell off their own weapons.

Uh the USA has sold TONS of arms to everyone as well even helping some middle eastern countries in the 70's to become nuclear (obviously that didn't happen but it was being worked on then.)

It would be awesome if China got sick of NK and just took them out for us, diplomatically of course.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'm not saying they should tuck their tails and run, but North Korea saying "We have nuclear capability, back off or we'll take it as you declaring war." is a lot different than "I'll punch you.".

I stand by what I said before, I believe there will be tension and then nothing major, but as PVS pointed out, Kim Jong-Il is a nutter.

-AC

And nut-jobs with dictator like powers should not be handling nukes. So when a nut like Kim Jong-Il says "Back off I have nukes." best thing to do is call his bluff, he's a bully and bullies only understand a 'punch in the mouth' approach. Backing off will only encourage a bully, that is a fact everyone can agree with.

Originally posted by Soleran
Uh the USA has sold TONS of arms to everyone as well even helping some middle eastern countries in the 70's to become nuclear (obviously that didn't happen but it was being worked on then.)

It would be awesome if China got sick of NK and just took them out for us, diplomatically of course.


Yes... the USA has given help to country's that need help. Did america supply IRAN with Nuclear advice, and IRAQ with weapon's and a millitary stand points. Yes. We did this with PURE intentions of Helping out our friends.

Like the neighbor asking to use your tool's. We were trying to be friendly.

I dont think the terrorist had intentions of being friend's when they destroyed the twin towers. They were asking for us to come. Why do they want us to attack. They know we can/did humiliat them. But what they have done is perform the greatest, and oldest magic trick in the book. While they pull our full attention with "The War on Terrorism". They are pulling the old switch/dissapear act. It's right under our noses. They are driving US apart. and they are planning to attack again. Next time, can very well be it.

We need to stand strong.

Perhaps the US should stop making "friends" based on the Cold War and the Cold War on Terrorism.

Originally posted by S.C.U.D DF
Did america supply IRAN with Nuclear advice,

no

Originally posted by S.C.U.D DF
and IRAQ with weapon's and a millitary stand points. Yes. We did this with PURE intentions of Helping out our friends.

no, we supplied iraq and hussein with the single intention of having iraq fight a war with iran, and there after to keep iran in check.

Originally posted by S.C.U.D DF
Like the neighbor asking to use your tool's. We were trying to be friendly.

WORST. SIMILE. EVER.

Originally posted by S.C.U.D DF
I dont think the terrorist had intentions of being friend's when they destroyed the twin towers. They were asking for us to come. Why do they want us to attack. They know we can/did humiliat them. But what they have done is perform the greatest, and oldest magic trick in the book. While they pull our full attention with "The War on Terrorism". They are pulling the old switch/dissapear act. It's right under our noses. They are driving US apart. and they are planning to attack again. Next time, can very well be it.

that made no sense at all.

I think the chances of a country helping another country for purely altruistic reasons are about the same as candidates running objective political advertisements.