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i searched and didnt find anything
i know alot of people will say luke but wasnt koon a jedi master
Setting:On the first death star
Anything goes.

I'd say Plo, imo Qui-Gon and ROTJ Luke are on par and Plo is supposed to be slightly above Qui-Gon, plus he knows electric judgement and has the ability to freeze creaks and stuff, and he's a respected Jedi Master and Shien/Djem So master and is held in high regards by Maul, which is saying something since Maul hates Jedi.

Originally posted by darthsith19
I'd say Plo, imo Qui-Gon and ROTJ Luke are on par and Plo is supposed to be slightly above Qui-Gon, plus he knows electric judgement and has the ability to freeze creaks and stuff, and he's a respected Jedi Master and Shien/Djem So master and is held in high regards by Maul, which is saying something since Maul hates Jedi.

and luke with less than a year's worth of training was able to defeat Vader, what's your point? luke also mastered djem so at an early age, and i believe he and anakin were the best djem so users in the galaxy. i'd give this to luke though

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
and luke with less than a year's worth of training was able to defeat Vader, what's your point? luke also mastered djem so at an early age, and i believe he and anakin were the best djem so users in the galaxy. i'd give this to luke though
Vader would have beaten Luke if he hadn't been holding back. Proof that Luke mastered Djem So by ROTJ? And your right that Luke and Anakin were the best Djem So users but Luke by ROTJ wasn't, Plo was greater than he was. He was stronger than Qui-Gon during the Stark Hyperspace Wars, which takes place 12 years before TPM, likely around the time when Qui-Gon was in his prime, and as I already stated I believe TPM Qui-Gon to be equal with ROTJ Luke. So Plo > Qui-Gon in his prime > TPM Qui-Gon = Luke (the last bit is debatable, some might think ROTJ Luke to eb above TPM Qui-Gon).

Luke beat Vader with Anakin's help....yea figure that one out, lol.

Anyways, Plo was one of the top Masters of the Order, and hass no emotional connection to Luke where by to let him win, and he was a much physically stronger being as was the nature of his species. Koon hands down. If not even saber skills then mos def in force mastery.

i think plo also

ROTJ Luke is better (but only by a close margin) than Qui-Gon. People even say Luke is on par with Maul. I would say

Maul > (close) ROTJ Luke > Qui-Gon

Now, I don't think Plo Koon is better than Maul since Maul's so underrated and Plo's so overatted. It's just like ESB Luke vs. Qui-Gon, Plo Koon wins by experience and being more connected with the Force.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
and luke with less than a year's worth of training was able to defeat Vader, what's your point? luke also mastered djem so at an early age, and i believe he and anakin were the best djem so users in the galaxy. i'd give this to luke though

Ah, yes, swinging your saber like a bat truly displays mastery.

How is Maul underrated and Plo overrated??? Maul killed one of the top Jedi Masters while tooling his padawan. We saw what he can do. Maul would pwn Luke (ROTJ), much like QGJ would. I don't think there is one Jedi Master that Luke can beat in ROTJ, except maybe that fat blue toolbox that Jango shot. And really thats just because i don't like him, lol, ill admit it. Plo, who actually is one of the better Jedi Masters, would take luke n a matter of minutes.

Didn't I successfully give LOGICAL evidence that ESB Luke is pretty close to QGJ. I did, didn't I? ROTJ Luke would definately be better than Jinn (that's not saying he's much better and all, just a bit better) but not enough to take on Maul. I would say Plo wins but ROTJ Luke would give a good fight.

well first of all plo koon is my favorite star wars character and in no way is he overrated.
in fact hes very much underrated.
but ROTJ Luke is a pretty bad with the lightsaber he uses no technique unless you call swingin you lightsaber around like a maniac a technique.
also luke barely has any force control.
plo koon is better in saber skills and force mastery.
im sorry to say but plo koon craps all over luke when it comes to being a jedi

See, i think that Luke is overrated...maybe its just me. But i dont think he's better than hardly any masters of the PT era.

Did I say he was better? No, I said he'll lose but he might give an okay fight. Luke isn't overrated. He just has incredible strength, courage, and potential.

And sorry I was too hasty in sayng Plo Koon was overrated. However, certain people (Koon fanboys) claim that Plo is one of the best swordsmen ever and that he can contend with Anakin, etc. However, Koon fanboyism has decreased.

We all know Plo isn't the best swordsman. Just look in AOTC where he gets captured.

trust, im no Koon fanboy. He's good, but hell, OB1 got capturd in AOTC. Luke has crazy potential, but is nowhere near as refined by ROTJ as he needs to be to beat Plo. I'll say it'll be a good fight.

Yep, see we're on equal terms now Subjekt.

For an earlier statement, TPM Qui-Gon and ROTJ Luke are not at all on par...

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
See, i think that Luke is overrated...maybe its just me. But i dont think he's better than hardly any masters of the PT era.

i completely agree with you.
although plo is my favourite jedi i know he is not the best.
but in this case plo wins hands down

Originally posted by Blue_Hefner
Ah, yes, swinging your saber like a bat truly displays mastery.

Are you that daft? Do you not understand that Luke trained for less than a year with NO real lightsaber form? And it was obviously good enough to defeat Vader.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Are you that daft? Do you not understand that Luke trained for less than a year with NO real lightsaber form? And it was obviously good enough to defeat Vader.

go watch the movie again.
vader was obviously holding back and luke knew that.
luke owes his life to vader because if vader wasnt sympathetic to luke sidious wouldve killed him.

Vader was holding back, but he was fighting as hard as he can to DISARM Luke, not kill him.

Plo would own him so badly. ROTJ Luke is a nobody, not even on par with most jedi knights. I'd even go as far to say that TPM Obi-Wan is a good league above Luke, maybe even leagues.

Originally posted by Kas'Im
Plo would own him so badly. ROTJ Luke is a nobody, not even on par with most jedi knights. I'd even go as far to say that TPM Obi-Wan is a good league above Luke, maybe even leagues.

Yet he defeated Dark Jedi in between ESB an ROTJ, and then he defeated Vader.. Yea, REAL loser.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Yet he defeated Dark Jedi in between ESB an ROTJ, and then he defeated Vader.. Yea, REAL loser.

Who?

plus, dont make that Vader win sound like a magnificent victory. Vader wasnt trying to kill him, and could have many times had he wanted to.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Are you that daft? Do you not understand that Luke trained for less than a year with NO real lightsaber form? And it was obviously good enough to defeat Vader.

I'm sorry. I didn't realize Djem So wasn't a lightsaber form.

Wow.. LOL..Get something through your skull. Luke had no lightsaber form by ROTJ, it was only after that he perfected his Djem So technique. And as far as i'm concerned, Djem So is just attacking someone with full force and anger, which he didn't do in ESB, and did at the end of ROTJ, so no, he HAS no form because NOBODY taught him one.

Answer my question TD.

Plo Koon wins by default due to lightning pwnage and freezing small creeks. Plo is also a jedi master when it comes to what's that form, Plo can also kill Kit Fisto any time he likes because he's just rad like that.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Yet he defeated Dark Jedi in between ESB an ROTJ, and then he defeated Vader.. Yea, REAL loser.

vader wasnt tryin to kill luke thats why luke won.
vader couldve just force choked him.
luke force abilities werent eve that great in ROTJ

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
plus, dont make that Vader win sound like a magnificent victory. Vader wasnt trying to kill him, and could have many times had he wanted to.


Both the script and the novelisation doesn't mention Vader holding back, rather that they both fought at their fullest. Some magazine (although maybe not as canon) states that it was " a fight between equals"...

Originally posted by kamikz
Both the script and the novelisation doesn't mention Vader holding back, rather that they both fought at their fullest. Some magazine (although maybe not as canon) states that it was " a fight between equals"...

Which version of the script? Does the novel state that he was in fact trying to kill his son that he started caring for? Thats why Palps dispersed the Hands, cause he felt that in Vader and didn't trust him any longer and why he couldn't "feel" that Luke was on the shuttle with Han, when Vader could. Basically, it was Anakin who was sensing Luke, the good man that was still inside wasn't allowing the Darkside to Kill Luke. "That's why you couldn't destroy me before." And why he was constantly calling him "son" with softness in his voice. He didn't want his son to join the darkside, but at the same time he didn't want Palps to kill him for not turning. Thats why he didn't kill him, and why he killed the Emperor.

Vader was holding back, as he wasn't aiming for cutting Luke's body in half. But he was fighting to get Luke in a surrender or die position, which he couldn't get. Vader tried in the end using advanced techniques like fighting while using the Force to beat Luke yet Luke held on. That fact is, that was ESB Luke. ROTJ Luke is even more powerful. I admit Plo wins, but to he mega-pwns Luke is utter foolishness.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Which version of the script? Does the novel state that he was in fact trying to kill his son that he started caring for? Thats why Palps dispersed the Hands, cause he felt that in Vader and didn't trust him any longer and why he couldn't "feel" that Luke was on the shuttle with Han, when Vader could. Basically, it was Anakin who was sensing Luke, the good man that was still inside wasn't allowing the Darkside to Kill Luke. "That's why you couldn't destroy me before." And why he was constantly calling him "son" with softness in his voice. He didn't want his son to join the darkside, but at the same time he didn't want Palps to kill him for not turning. Thats why he didn't kill him, and why he killed the Emperor.



Is that your opinion? It doesn't really mention it, it says that they are both fighting at their fullest. Even if I would have remembered it wrong, Luke held back as well since he was actually the one refusing to fight, it was only at the end he struck Vader down. And he DID want Luke to join the dark side, what was the whole speech in the Cloud City for? If he didn't want to kill him he at least fought as good as he could, but he lost.....


Wait, we are not talking about ESB right? Cause then Vader totally held back.

Vader did not hold back in ROTJ, what the hell are you talking about?

prove it.

yea he wanted to join the darkside in ESB, but thats not ROTJ is it? When he was talking to Luke alone in the hallway on Endor, you could tell he wanted to go with Luke, but the lightside in him wasn't strong enough yet to contend with the darkside. If that was his plan to kill and or turn him, why kill the Emperor? And yea in ESB he mentioned turning him as an alternative to killing him. He just found out the son son he thought was dead was alive, why let Palps kill him? Unless it clearly states he was trying to kill Luke, then its up for speculation. Much like whether or not PLageus created Anakin. GL stated he left that open on purpose for us to decide. Why would that be the only instance?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Vader did not hold back in ROTJ, what the hell are you talking about?

"it's pointless to resist, son"

"
EMPEROR
If you will not be turned, you will be destroyed.

Blinding bolts of energy, evil lightning, shoot from the Emperor's
hands at Luke. Even in his surprise, the young Jedi tries to use the
Force to deflect them. At first he is half successful, but after a
moment the bolts of energy are coming with such speed and power the
young Jedi shrinks before them, his knees buckling. The wounded Vader
struggles to his feet, and moves to stand at his master's side."

ok this is from the script. The reason I'm bring thins to attention is because it says Luke uses the force to block the lightning and at first is half successful. Now, in the movie nothing like that happened, so this is non-canon since the movie contradicts it. It also said nothing about Vader fighting for his life, fighting his fullest, or anything like that. It does say that Luke forced him back while using his anger and hatred, but thats not what we're debating here. Since there's no undeniable proof that Vader was holding back or fighting full out, we can, like Ush, ASSUME that he was holding back out of some type of love for his son. Correct?

However, Luke held back as much if not more in the beginning. He still kicked Vader down pretty easily, he could have killed him at that point. But he chose to not fight him, and Vader continued the fight. Luke hid and did not want to fight him while Vader encouraged him to fight, and said they could use his sister instead. Luke goes crazy and defeates Vader.
Just saying that Vader wasn't fighting to kill Luke is not enough to say Vader>Luke....

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
prove it.

yea he wanted to join the darkside in ESB, but thats not ROTJ is it? When he was talking to Luke alone in the hallway on Endor, you could tell he wanted to go with Luke, but the lightside in him wasn't strong enough yet to contend with the darkside. If that was his plan to kill and or turn him, why kill the Emperor? And yea in ESB he mentioned turning him as an alternative to killing him. He just found out the son son he thought was dead was alive, why let Palps kill him? Unless it clearly states he was trying to kill Luke, then its up for speculation. Much like whether or not PLageus created Anakin. GL stated he left that open on purpose for us to decide. Why would that be the only instance?



"it's pointless to resist, son"

"
EMPEROR
If you will not be turned, you will be destroyed.

Blinding bolts of energy, evil lightning, shoot from the Emperor's
hands at Luke. Even in his surprise, the young Jedi tries to use the
Force to deflect them. At first he is half successful, but after a
moment the bolts of energy are coming with such speed and power the
young Jedi shrinks before them, his knees buckling. The wounded Vader
struggles to his feet, and moves to stand at his master's side."

ok this is from the script. The reason I'm bring thins to attention is because it says Luke uses the force to block the lightning and at first is half successful. Now, in the movie nothing like that happened, so this is non-canon since the movie contradicts it. It also said nothing about Vader fighting for his life, fighting his fullest, or anything like that. It does say that Luke forced him back while using his anger and hatred, but thats not what we're debating here. Since there's no undeniable proof that Vader was holding back or fighting full out, we can, like Ush, ASSUME that he was holding back out of some type of love for his son. Correct?

You claim he held back when there was nothing in the script nor the novelization, so the onus is on YOU to prove that he held back

Originally posted by Blue_Hefner
We all know Plo isn't the best swordsman. Just look in AOTC where he gets captured.
When was this?

Originally posted by Captain REX
For an earlier statement, TPM Qui-Gon and ROTJ Luke are not at all on par...
That was my statement, and I said imo, but how do you believe to be stronger between Qui-Gon and ROTJ Luke?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You claim he held back when there was nothing in the script nor the novelization, so the onus is on YOU to prove that he held back
there's also nothing in the script saying he wasn't holding back. Either way its an assumption. He wanted Luke to kill the Emperor so he could take over, while Palps wanted Luke to kill Vader to take his spot. No one wanted Luke dead till he outright refused to kill Vader for Palps. Now if you don't want to kill someone, then you're holding back. That seems obvious. If he wanted him dead, he wouldn't go through all the talking and such.

Vader didn't want Luke to die. However, that's doesn't mean he wasn't even trying against Luke. No, he was trying to perform Cho Sun or get him a surrender position, which he was incapable to do throughout the duel in ROTJ and ESB. This shows Luke isn't a newbish Jedi, but very strong for a person of his stature. Yes, he can definately take on QGJ. ESB Luke is not better than Jinn, but ROTJ Luke is definately on par or even better.

Now Plo Koon is stronger than QGJ, therefore he beats Luke. Howver, he doesn't own Luke in thirty seconds. I would say Skywalker dies after a couple of minutes's of useless determination.

Are you kidding me? Vader didn't have Luke in a surrender position in ESB? He had him on the ground with a lightsaber to his throat and then lopped off his hand. He pwned Luke in ESB. And I will admit that in ROTJ he underestimated Luke, and with the help of the darkside he defeated Vader. However, Vader was NOT trying to kill him, wanted to inflict minimal damage in order to help him take out Palps. He also wanted him sheltered from palps once Luke got there, hence throwing his house down the shaft.

Originally posted by darthsith19
When was this?



When he was walking back to the jedi circle escorted by a TF droid.

Originally posted by Blue_Hefner
When he was walking back to the jedi circle escorted by a TF droid.
He didn't get captured. He, Kit and Mundi shut down the droid control computer to stop the droids, only these Battle Droid are upgraded versions from the ones in TPM and shutting down the system doesn't stop them. Then they allowed the droids to escort them back into the circle where the other Jedi were. If they had tried to keep fighting they would have been shot and killed, and Dooku had instructed the droids to half the battle so he could talk to Windu so there was no point in not allowing the droids to lead them back into the circle.

lead back by the droids to avoid being shot and killed = captured.

Vader wasn't trying to kill him, but he was trying to capture Luke, which he couldn't do for a good several minutes against Luke in ESB. I know how powerful Luke becomes by ROTJ, he's as strong as QGJ. However, he'll still lose to plo.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
lead back by the droids to avoid being shot and killed = captured.


Because they were on a mission to save them all, not actually just out there defending against blaster bolts....

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Luke beat Vader with Anakin's help....yea figure that one out, lol.

Anyways, Plo was one of the top Masters of the Order, and hass no emotional connection to Luke where by to let him win, and he was a much physically stronger being as was the nature of his species. Koon hands down. If not even saber skills then mos def in force mastery.

Pretty much, although Plo actaully was alot more skilled in Djem So than Luke was.

He'd break Luke down in about a minuite.

Yeah, I agree that a minute or maybe a minute and a half would be how long this duel would take it (with Plo winning, though Luke gives a good fight).