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Takes place on Nar Shadda on a landing pad.

Round 1:Force only
Round 2: Saber only
Round 3: Anything goes


My money is on Kas'im, considering the fight he put up against Bane.

Force: Kas'Im. He's been a master and probably knows a little bit more than Maul's basic moves. HOWEVER, this is FP Maul. I would say FP Maul would defeat Kas'Im in swords becuz he has Sidious as a master who'll teach him a bunch of stuff.

Saber: Kas'Im. He was said to be one of the greatest swordsmen of his time and a master of all forms. He would definately beat TPM Maul and closely beat FP Maul.

Who?

TPM Maul is FP Maul. It was said he was at his peak.

Who is Kas'Im? ermm

Originally posted by Captain REX
Who is Kas'Im? ermm

A new Character from the Darth Bane novel. He mastered all seven forms and both dual and single wielding.

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/6797/sign7bz.png

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
TPM Maul is FP Maul. It was said he was at his peak.

Provide proof please.

there's already been a statement and quote provided. Provide proof to the contrary. Prove it was misinterpreted.

Originally posted by Captain REX
Who is Kas'Im? ermm

Oh, he was only the best lightsaber duelist ever.ermm

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
there's already been a statement and quote provided. Provide proof to the contrary. Prove it was misinterpreted.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=413242&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=2

seems that Ush won due to being a mod and being hard headed. She gave up, you can only prove a point for so long. I really don't care what USh or restricted boy say. Ush didn't "prove" anything, and i don't care what anyone really says about it. It didn't say those were QGJ's thoughts and it never said he would get better. In any reasonably rational persons mind, to assume he would get better is silly, and simply their opinion. To assume is to guess...if it was proven, it would not be an assumption, now would it? And you cant use that pathetic excuse that English isn't my first language so i don't understand it. Ush basically said that to assume that Maul would never get better is silly...when in all actuality, he was assuming that Maul would get better. How is his assumption better or more acceptable than anyone else's who actually have written words to support them? I don't care if he's an english teacher, that doesn't make his assumption more prevalent to Star Wars than anyone else's.

Advent didn't say she lost til after she just gave up due to dealing with innate stubbornness. I'm sure she believes that she is still correct nd her mind has not actually changed. And i will not be convinced that Maul will never get better either. Hence Peak, Apex, and Never to get any better.

Ushagarak and Advent are in a higher plane of debating then mine. I can't judge who wins.

Anyway, it's surprising that Maul's peak was what he showed in TPM. I mean, no Force moves at all except a simple push. Maul wasn't a tool for Sidious, unlike Dooku, he was for real. I expected him to be throwing Senate pods with ease like his master.

He was 24, you idiot.

uh...what? It even said in his bio from various sources, that maul was designed Sidious to be his weapon, his toll of destruction. He wasn't meant to be a great force user like Dooku. The whole point of Dooku was to show the mastery side of the Sith vs the brutal Jedi killing machine type. His force powers would never surpass, let alone reach Dooku's or Sidious'. And really, debating has nothing to do with it...its just reading what was written. And when nothing contradicts it, thats how you have to accept it, as its written.



Darth MaulIndoctrinated in the ways of the dark side from youth, Maul had no emotion aside from bloodlust and rage. During his training, any show of fear was severely punished by Sidious and any hint of mercy rewarded with cruelty. By the time Maul was an adolescent, his master had already forged him into a weapon of pure hatred. Marked by Sith tattoos that covered his entire muscular body, the young Zabrak was now the ultimate tool of the dark side. Despite this rather traumatic childhood (if it could be called that), Maul adored his Master, and never once contemplated killing him — until his final test.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
seems that Ush won due to being a mod and being hard headed. She gave up, you can only prove a point for so long. I really don't care what USh or restricted boy say. Ush didn't "prove" anything, and i don't care what anyone really says about it. It didn't say those were QGJ's thoughts and it never said he would get better. In any reasonably rational persons mind, to assume he would get better is silly, and simply their opinion. To assume is to guess...if it was proven, it would not be an assumption, now would it? And you cant use that pathetic excuse that English isn't my first language so i don't understand it. Ush basically said that to assume that Maul would never get better is silly...when in all actuality, he was assuming that Maul would get better. How is his assumption better or more acceptable than anyone else's who actually have written words to support them? I don't care if he's an english teacher, that doesn't make his assumption more prevalent to Star Wars than anyone else's.

Advent didn't say she lost til after she just gave up due to dealing with innate stubbornness. I'm sure she believes that she is still correct nd her mind has not actually changed. And i will not be convinced that Maul will never get better either. Hence Peak, Apex, and Never to get any better.



Actually, Advent stated that Ush "defeated her" so.... (Not saying that is the case, but your saying that she gave up by the sheer stuborness of them while she herself said she was defeated).

Originally posted by Advent
Eh, forget it. I surrender.

yes i saw she said that. after this.

well submit something to LFL and see if you get hired...

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
well submit something to LFL and see if you get hired...


They've already used more than half of my ideas, especially in terms of characters

Damn the person who gave Asajj a Double Bladed Saber that can split into 2

I wanna see a Jedi the Hutt. I saw one in an old comic, but it was mad cheesey. I think it'd be funny, he slaps his tail in a dude's face and he has a bunch of slug shit all over his face.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
I wanna see a Jedi the Hutt. I saw one in an old comic, but it was mad cheesey. I think it'd be funny, he slaps his tail in a dude's face and he has a bunch of slug shit all over his face.

Planet of Twilight had one

Anyone else notice their ideas being used? I always find one on a Wiki search that somehow is completely differant than what I was searching for

useless thread. Kas'im did master all 7 forms of saber combat, and was called the greatest duelist of his order and possibly ever.

so he's better than NJO Luke or LoTF Luke rather?

Most likely not. Luke's got some pretty impressive natural affinity with a saber. Add in his mastery of the force, and he's pretty much unstoppable.

Thats kinda what i was getting at, being that he said possibly the best ever..i just wanted some clarification.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
useless thread. Kas'im did master all 7 forms of saber combat, and was called the greatest duelist of his order and possibly ever.

Hyperbole and lack of research. It was BS. It said a Sith student was using vaapad at one point in the novel.


Maul would destroy him in saber combat. Maul would not get tired, where Kas'Im was stated to be a victim of fatigue. Maul knows how the double-bladed lightsaber works and has been using it since childhood. Maul can resist lightning with or without a lightsaber, has obliterated the black sun with ease (which includes many of the "Galaxies deadliest" people), is a master of teri kasi, and is from a more powerful era where the dark side isn't spread thin and weak.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Maul would destroy him in saber combat.B]


Hilarious stuff.

Read it and come back, if you have an argument worth reading, now is the time.

It was stated by the omniscient narrator, and seeing as it's not disputed by any higher forms of canon, it goes. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean that you can just shrug it off as hyperbole, that doesn't quite cut it.



Willing to provide an argument as to why?



A mistake on Drew's part, doesn't make any of the rest of the book less genuine or anything.



Yay for unsupported assumptions. I've heard you parade around how Maul is beyond fatigue, care to provide a argument, because nobody is beyond fatigue, everyone eventually would run out of energy given the right amount of exertion.



Where was that said? That is just ridiculous, considering that Kas'im kept his body in better condition than any other sith lord around at the time.



Within the first few passes Bane knew he couldn't win. Kas'Im had trained his entire life for this moment. After years of study, he'd mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber. Then he'd honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. Maybe the greatest swordsman ever. bane was no match for him.

What seems more impressive to you?



Erm, feat wars anyone? How is that relevant to a saber duel.



Quantify and substantiate this please. How did he do it, how many people did he kill? Sure, from what I remember (I read the comic quite a while ago) it was somewhat impressive, but at the end of the day it doesn't really speak for his duelling skill. You're gonna have to do much better than that.



This is great and all, but still nothing on Kas'Im. I'd pick a master of all seven forms, as well as a master of the dual sabers as well as the saber staff over a master of Juyo and Teras Kasi.



This is a pretty ridiculous way to try and downplay how powerful Kas'Im's era was; if anything 'the darkside being spread too thin' had more to do with the sith philosophy and how strong and stable the order was, it has hardly anything to do with the personal power of anyone in the order.
Also, this is a discussion on saber skill, not force power, so your point is moot anyways.

Originally posted by Kas'Im
It was stated by the omniscient narrator, and seeing as it's not disputed by any higher forms of canon, it goes. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean that you can just shrug it off as hyperbole, that doesn't quite cut it.



Originally posted by Kas'Im
Willing to provide an argument as to why?



Originally posted by Kas'Im
A mistake on Drew's part, doesn't make any of the rest of the book less genuine or anything. ah so ultimately YOU can dictate whats canon in a book and whats not? unless its contradicted by a movie or Lucas, then theres no mistake. Books are proofread about 3 times before being published, so if that was a mistake, it would surely be corrected before hand.



Originally posted by Kas'Im
Yay for unsupported assumptions. I've heard you parade around how Maul is beyond fatigue, care to provide a argument, because nobody is beyond fatigue, everyone eventually would run out of energy given the right amount of exertion. Im thinking he meant his comditioning is above Kas'Im's.



Originally posted by Kas'Im
Where was that said? That is just ridiculous, considering that Kas'im kept his body in better condition than any other sith lord around at the time. AHA! Like you said, EVERYONE will run out of energy, now youre saying he wont? Please. And exactly, of HIS time, not everyone else's era.



Originally posted by Kas'Im
Within the first few passes Bane knew he couldn't win. Kas'Im had trained his entire life for this moment. After years of study, he'd mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber. Then he'd honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. Maybe the greatest swordsman ever. bane was no match for him.

What seems more impressive to you? When speaking like that, ever means up to that point. They cant speak of the future cause in their timline, nothing else has happened, so theres nothing new to compare it to. But other than that, i wont argue the quote, it has a point.



Originally posted by Kas'Im
Erm, feat wars anyone? How is that relevant to a saber duel. Is this an anything goes fight? If so, then its quite relevant. If not, then it doesnt matter.



Originally posted by Kas'Im
Quantify and substantiate this please. How did he do it, how many people did he kill? Sure, from what I remember (I read the comic quite a while ago) it was somewhat impressive, but at the end of the day it doesn't really speak for his duelling skill. You're gonna have to do much better than that. How does him killing MULTIPLE people with dueling not speak for his duelling skills? Thats excatly what it is you idiot. If he dueled them and killed them...thats it. So find something saying that he used other methods.



Originally posted by Kas'Im
This is great and all, but still nothing on Kas'Im. I'd pick a master of all seven forms, as well as a master of the dual sabers as well as the saber staff over a master of Juyo and Teras Kasi. I agree



Originally posted by Kas'Im
This is a pretty ridiculous way to try and downplay how powerful Kas'Im's era was; if anything 'the darkside being spread too thin' had more to do with the sith philosophy and how strong and stable the order was, it has hardly anything to do with the personal power of anyone in the order.
Also, this is a discussion on saber skill, not force power, so your point is moot anyways.

indeed.

Excuse me? That's just how canon works, all I'm doing is following the rules.



Well I've seen him go on about how Maul is beyond fatigue before, and I just wanted to address it.



Where did I say he won't? Reading comprehension much? He implied that Kas'Im was pretty unconditioned on a relative scale, and I was just saying that it's bs.



The point is, he is in great physical condition, and if you knew how to read properly, you would see that I was addressing JJ's point about Kas'Im lacking in that particular department.



And, why are you telling me things I already know? Did I say anything in contrary to that?



JollyJim was speaking in terms of a saber duel.



It doesn't speak for his dueling skills because there was no swordsman for him to duel with. It only speaks for his espionage skills, assassination skills and how capable he is in dealing with blaster wielding foes.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Hyperbole and lack of research. It was BS. It said a Sith student was using vaapad at one point in the novel.


Maul would destroy him in saber combat. Maul would not get tired, where Kas'Im was stated to be a victim of fatigue. Maul knows how the double-bladed lightsaber works and has been using it since childhood. Maul can resist lightning with or without a lightsaber, has obliterated the black sun with ease (which includes many of the "Galaxies deadliest" people), is a master of teri kasi, and is from a more powerful era where the dark side isn't spread thin and weak.

One typo does not change the fact that Kas'Im was stated by the narrator to have mastered all seven forms and then continued to improve upon all his abilities.

Stop trying to argue against canon JJ...

Maul is good, but not that good.

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/6797/sign7bz.png

Thats how canon works? By YOU choosing what info is canon? No, the whole book is equal.

I know Maul would get tired, it seemed as though you were saying that Maul would, but your boy wouldn't. And yes i can comprehend what I read. He said that Kas'Im was a victim of fatigue, and you said that is ridiculous because he kept his body in better condition than any other sith in his time. You didn't say that Maul would just get tired first, you just said that Kas getting fatigued was ridiculous. I comprehended that quite well. If thats not what you meant than you need to proof read and comprehend what you yourself wrote.

Well being that Maul is not in his era, and you said he's the best ever, using that against Maul, then yea you did say that, so its not really me telling you things you already know.

So no one in the Black Sun wielded a sword? I don't know so I'm seriously asking. But if he killed them all with his lightsaber and didn't even get hurt, that says something for his overall fighting skills.

Dont get me wrong tho, i agree Maul loses.

WRONG!!

Any aspect of the book that contradicts a higher form of canon is rendered invalid, whilst the rest of the book that doesn't contradict a higher form of canon stays valid. That's just how these things work.



JollyJim stated that Maul would not get tired, whereas Kas'Im was a 'victim' of fatigue. The context in which he stated this indicates that he believed that Kas'Im was pretty badly conditioned, at least worse than Maul. I just responded by saying tha Kas'Im was very well physically conditioned. I really don't see the problem here, you're clearly having trouble understanding the English language.



I didn't realise that people could get this plain stupid. Please point out where I indicated that I believed that that statement was referring to the future tense as well as past and present, because I didn't.
And yes, you are telling me things I already know, please stop.



I'm pretty sure nobody wielded a sword, but even if there were a few, the feat itself says little about his dueling skill as pretty much the most of the feat involved Maul going up against blaster wielding foes.

ok, which part was contradicted and where was it contradiced at?

And obviously you are quite incapeable of understanding the English language. You implied that Kas being the best "ever" that he was better than Maul. You did this by using that staement to refute Maul's accomplishments. So what I gathered from your post, was actually quite accurate. If you did not mean that in that sense, then you failed to properly express yourself. Anyone who gets tired or fatigued, is a VICTIM of fatigue. Thats how the language works. If you assumed that JJ meant Kas is poorly conditioned, then thats on you. He was saying he believed Maul to be in better shape, but didnt say that Kas was bad. Its a shame how you try to critique others, yet you dont seem to be able to comprehend sentences too well.

The fact that Sirak utilised Vaapad, when in fact Mace Windu invented Vaapad. Direct contradiction.



What are you on?

This was my entire post:
'Within the first few passes Bane knew he couldn't win. Kas'Im had trained his entire life for this moment. After years of study, he'd mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber. Then he'd honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. Maybe the greatest swordsman ever. bane was no match for him.

What seems more impressive to you?'

As you can see, the whole point that Kas'Im was possibly the best ever was a tiny portion of my entire post, you're working under the assumption that it was my main point. Shoddy reading comprehension my friend, shoddy.



The problem here would be context, Subject.
His choice of the word 'victim', the fact that he was using the post to explain why Kas'Im would get tired whereas Maul wouldn't, his choice of the words 'was stated'. It's fairly simple, if you were any good at reading people, you would know. Clearly everyone is susceptible to fatigue, so the fact that he is using the reason that 'Kas'Im was stated to be a victim of fatigue' to say that Maul wouldn't get tired in their fight shows us that he was indicating that being a 'victim of fatigue' was a bad thing, and thus indicating that Kas'Im was womewhat poorly conditioned. Believe me Subject, you don't want to go up against me on this. If you do, you will lose.

Seriously, what's there to argue. Kas'Im wins. He has experience and he is the greatest swordsmen of his time. Maul is good, but he is no where in the league Kas'Im is shown to be.

'Seriously, what's there to argue. Kas'Im wins.'
lmao, for a second I thought you were talking about me in the debate lol.

haha no. I'll go up against you in anything you want. I really don't want this to continue to get personal, but if you want, so be it. The way you typed it out, made me think what i wrote. Doesn't mean its wrong, it means thats the way it was written. I have a high amount of reading/writing comprehension. It was about 8 years ago, but i did extremely well on my SAT's . No but seriously, I like debating you anyways. I already said that Kas'im would win. Thats not what i was arguing at all, just the finer points of the previous arguments.

To me it didn't seem you were getting what JJ was saying, but i got what he was saying. Either way,all good.

lol, sorry if it seemed like I was getting personal, it was just banter, it's all cool.

nah its all good. I just meant like the "idiot" "dumbass, moron, tool" shi tlike that. I get heated alittle too easy sometimes, lol....

"Both fighters were breathing hard." (159)

That's in reference to Bane and Kas'Im sparring for "Well over a minute" with a brief break afterwords. Maul has never shown any signs of fatigue, and is in top physical condition.

"The outcome was inevitable...Bane had seen every possible sequence, series, move, and trick with the double-bladed lightsaber, and he knew how to counter and nullify them all."(243)

Seeing as how Maul uses a double bladed saber I think this has value. I realize this is a two way street, but Maul is a teri kasi master, and is deadly with his body and not just lightsaber, throwing in kicks and hits that aren't part of any form. He has a unique style of using Juyo and Teri Kasi.

"Every time he tried to change tactics or switch forms, Bane anticipated, reacted and seized the advantage." (243)

Speaks for itself...

Also, Kas'Im was defeated by Bane with less than a year of training (Probably?). Maul was trained by Darth Sidious for his whole life to kill.



Also, read the Maul comics.

good points, but Maul is no Bane. I think Kas takes this kinda quickly.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
good points, but Maul is no Bane. I think Kas takes this kinda quickly.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Also, Kas'Im was defeated by Bane with less than a year of training (Probably?). Maul was trained by Darth Sidious for his whole life to kill.

JollyJim, no need to lie. I have the book right here, where the hell does it say "well over a minute".

Here's a little passage on the same page that I'll throw out at ya:
'Fatigue was setting in. Even the force couldn't keep his muscles fresh forever, and the seemingly endless duel had finally taken too great a toll. The Blademaster, on the other hand, had lost almost none of his speed and sharpness'

This passage describes how Bane felt straight after their duel.

So as you can clearly see, it was 'seemingly endless', and even though Kas'Im was breathing heavily just before, he 'had lost almost none of his speed or sharpness'.
And I mean really, enough with trying to downplay Kas'Im, it's starting to become a joke.



However Maul has never been up against a saber staff, so he wouldn't have been able to study how it would be used against him as intently as Bane. Maul also only knows Juyo, whereas Kas'Im knows all seven forms (he combines them together, switches from form to from, so his style is very much unique too, with only Bane knowing it pretty much as well as Kas'Im himself)) so Kas'Im's fighting style would still be very much alien to Maul I'm afraid.



This is because Bane had studied every single aspect of Kas'Im's style, knew it almost as well as Kas'Im himself, and had the superior force mastery to be able to anticipate everything Kas'Im could throw at him.
Please, stop trying to downplay Kas'Im, it's starting to become a joke.



More like a year at the very least.
And what you seem to be forgetting is that Bane was clearly a saber prodigy, had progressed fast as hell in the short time he had (taking extra lessons for example), had studied every aspect of Kas'Im's form, had the superior force mastery and knew the temple far better than Kas'Im did, in fact he even states it was this knowledge that gave him the edge.
And yet when Kas'Im brought out the dual sabers, he pwned Bane easily.

Qui Gon: Best saber duelist Obi had ever seen, on par with Windu. Beat in 30 seconds flat by Maul.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Qui Gon: Best saber duelist Obi had ever seen, on par with Windu. Beat in 30 seconds flat by Maul.

Wow, nice rebuttal.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Qui Gon: Best saber duelist Obi had ever seen, on par with Windu. Beat in 30 seconds flat by Maul.

Are we talking about ROTS Mace who put Sidious on his ass, or the younger, pre Vaapad/Shatterpoint Mace who is still slightly noobish in comparison? I am thinking the latter, in which case the quote holds no water. And that last part, is there proof that the battle was just 30 seconds?

Kas'im mastered every single form of lightsaber dueling, plus double bladed and Jar Kai. He was commented by the omniscient narrator as the "perfect weapon," "greatest duelist of his age" and "possibly the greatest ever."

Just because Maul defeated one Jedi of note (which IMO wasn't even that powerful a Jedi), and an organization of non force sensitives (big whoop, Shadows of the Empire Luke did the same thing) means absolutely nothing when he is fighting against a master duelist commented as a contender for the title "the best duelist ever"

And being pushed back by Bane means jack in putting down Kas'im. Bane was getting pushed back when Kas'im unleashed his most trained form of lightsaber dueling (which is apparently Jar Kai).

(We can't be sure when Mace invented his style and he was born with shatterpoint, either way, it's impressive, unless Mace magically became uber by Episode 2 but sucked in Episode 1...?)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=aTpixIcDz08
Exactly 30 seconds after Qui Gon meditated (which, according to the novelization, made him very powerful). Once Maul goes on the offensive, 30 seconds even (2:33-3:03)
Notice how around 45 seconds Qui Gon is one on one with Maul, and gets discarded easily? Now, Qui Gon is good, and him being defeated by Maul is not a negative thing. It speaks for Mauls power, not against Qui Gons.

Quit pretending like Maul sucks. Taking out the Black Sun is damn impressive. And Maul's feats are better than Kas'Im's, who has done zilch other than train with Bane and die in the end. He has one hyperbole to his name. That book has a lack or research (Like someone using Vaapad, which wasn't invented until some 1,000 years later), and the quote is exaggerated.

Also, Maul learned from Sidious so he probably has a better dark side knowledge.
As for "mastering" every form, Bane had no problem taking an advantage when he had a double bladed saber (not to mention how he was always preaching about if you practice another form, it's time away from yours, and how it's a bad thing, he probably learned from experience).

And? When did he fully recognize and refine his shatterpoint ability? Bane had the innate ability to force crush when he was young...Did that mean he was force crushing every single miner? No, it was not yet developed or refined. not to mention Mace has yet to develop and learn Vaapad.

Can you prove that the Mace Windu in TPM was as strong as Mace Windu in ROTS?

Look, Qui Gon is no where near ROTS Mace's power in terms of dueling. If we accept this, then we must also accept that he is in the same league as ROTS Sidious which is just plain illogical.





I disagree. When dealing with high tier characters like Kas'im, you have to quantify the strength of these grunts. Defeating a bunch non force sensitives who are utterly vulnerable to force attacks means very little when facing against a force user capable of blocking blasts of energy capable of reducing a temple to rubble, who mastered all forms of lightsaber dueling.



Being beaten by Bane doesn't put down Kas'im at all. You seem to disregard that Bane at the very least was a prodigy with the saber.

And really, feat wars means jack in this competition. Put feats into context. Maul defeated a bunch of black sun grunts. I ask, so what? How does defeating non force sensitives give him an edge in this battle?



You're assuming there was an exagerration, care to prove it?



Since when does learning from Sidious make him better. Prove that Sidious taught Maul everything.



Bane had knowledge of the entire temple. He could direct the fight any where, while Kas'im was new to the area. We see how much setting can influence a fight, especially when Anakin got his ass handed back to him by Kenobi.

Again, Maul is no Bane. Bane was a prodigy, and is close to the top as one of the greatest Sith Lords EVER. He was extremely prodigous and fast learned, as in a short period of time, he was able to conjure up ligthning that matched what the masters of the academy were doing.

In PoD he studied everything about the lightsaber FROM Kas'im. Given that he was a prodigy and consequently a fast learned, obviously aftering training with Kas'im, he is going to be good at countering his master's double bladed style.

Point is, when Kas'im unleashed his main style, Bane was being wtfpwned.



What the? What are you trying to prove? That Kas'im mastering all seven forms of lightsaber dueling is a bad thing?