White Phoenix VS HOM Scarlet Witch

Mr Master

Originally posted by jffxex1980
We are talking about the matriach of the Phoenix force at full power! She has held the universe in the palm of her hand

That was just a visualization of the Universe, NOT the actual Universe.

There were a bunch of low end Avatars there and all of them were the same size as Jean. Come one, those Avatars get handled all the time.

So they can hold Universes too?

Here's the Scan with Jean and the visualization of the Universe that represents the events of Here Comes Tomorrow (the Future that is NOW)

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/3430/pf8zt1.th.jpg

Phoenix is CLUELESS as to WHAT this is, or WHAT to do with it.

Jean says, "Did I have to FIX something that was dying?

What is it?"

It tells her, "A badly wounded Orphan Universe...Phoenix work"

Fine.....Now WHAT does that mean?....Jean Grey DOESN'T KNOW either.

AM I LYING? LOOK AT THE SCAN!!!

"But...but WHAT's that supposed to mean?

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/5156/pf9wr5.th.jpg

Phoenix asked, "but what's that supposed to mean?"

AFTER She was told it's a "A badly wounded Orphan Universe...Phoenix work"

Now, it TELLS Phoenix WHAT THAT MEANS,

"That Henry's heart's broken, that Scott succumbs to loneliness", ect..ect..

Is it saying,

"This Universe needs to be Fixed anyway?" NO!

"This Universe is injured or damged and needs to be repaired?" NO!

"This Universe needs a Future? NO!

So WHAT does it SAY WHEN Jean ASKED "but what's that supposed to mean?"

"That Henry's heart's broken, that Scott succumbs to loneliness", ect..ect..
(This is the OUTCOME of Here Comes Tomorrow)

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/8366/1zl6.th.jpg

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/1052/2ye7.th.jpg

NOW, to Change that OUTCOME, Phoenix did NOT manipulate the Universe.

AM I LYING?

Here is GRANT MORRISON'S and company telling us HOW Phoenix CHANGED that Future.

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/1293/0zc0.th.jpg

Just like in the Comic book, which anyone can see as plain as day.

She actually went to the past and forced Scott to be with Emma
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/1708/x1dd6.th.jpg

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/8494/x2pz3.th.jpg

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/8485/pf14kr5.th.jpg
In order to PREVENT the events of "Here Comes Tomorrow"

Jean had to change Scott's mind anout Emma in the Past to change that Timeline, Wanda changed the whole UNIVERSE'S Past on a Whim.

Originally posted by jffxex1980
and manipulated 616's timeline so that scott would be too happy and wouldn't blame himself for Jean's death and contained sublime in the process.

I just explained to you how it really happened.

Jean didn't manipulate anything, all Jean did was go into the Past and chnage Scott's mind about Emma.

That's what Grant Morrison and company made conclusive:
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/1345/mtt0.th.jpg

This is from the last page of New X-Men issue #155, in the Questionnaires addressed to the Writers.

Originally posted by jffxex1980
wanda would get owned by Jean. A multidimensional destroyer versus a universe manipulator?

More like a Universal Destroyer and Re-Creator that was collapsing the Omni-verse without even knowing it,

versus

a being that has NEVER destroyed, remade or created a Universe.

Mr Master

Originally posted by Galan777
go try and fool people elsewhere roll eyes (sarcastic)

Dinalfos

SW for teh winzors.

(also because I dislike Phoenix)

Mr Master

Wanda doesn't need to take twists and turns to rearrange the Timeline.

Whatever she wishes, is.

Wanda changing the Universe's PAST on a Whim

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/6653/w2oe5.th.jpg

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/5301/w1ti8.th.jpg

NEXT PANEL

the Universe, the Past, Present and Future has been REMADE
http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/8318/w3zc5.th.jpg

AGAIN

"What's happening on 616"
http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/1783/w20sp4.th.jpg

"Her ability to altar probability got Super charged"
http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/3817/wanda1km4.th.jpg

"She's starting to REMAKE Reality 616... again" (more than once she did it)
http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/4126/wanad2jy7.th.jpg

"You might not even exist anymore in whatever New Reality takes its place"
http://img326.imageshack.us/img326/5289/wanda3pi5.th.jpg

"Who knows how she'll change Everything this time"
http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/355/wanda4iu5.th.jpg

continues in the next post...

Mr Master

AGAIN

http://img435.imageshack.us/img435/7594/w1vi8.th.jpg

http://img435.imageshack.us/img435/6563/w2bu5.th.jpg

AGAIN

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/8128/w3qs5.th.jpg

http://img277.imageshack.us/img277/3286/w4tp9.th.jpg

AGAIN

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/5451/w5iw8.th.jpg

AGAIN

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/9313/w10sq9.th.jpg

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/2359/w11xt8.th.jpg

http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/8791/wyz7.th.jpg

Remade
http://img445.imageshack.us/img445/9958/w1nt5.th.jpg

xjustice69x

lmao at this point 60 % of Mr Master posts are to disprove phoenix's so called feats.

Ext@nt

Originally posted by jffxex1980
We are talking about the matriach of the Phoenix force at full power! She has held the universe in the palm of her hand and manipulated 616's timeline so that scott would be too happy and wouldn't blame himself for Jean's death and contained sublime in the process. wanda would get owned by Jean. A multidimensional destroyer versus a universe manipulator? I think the universe is quiet obvious.

Okay thisis my point, Mr M posted facts and scans disproving your claims. Yet you will not listen and ignore them.

This people is why I called them Phoenix Fanboys, cause no matter how much logic and common sense you show them it just dosen't sink in.

Wanda = Omniversal

Phoenix = Multiversal

Bye Bye Birdie!

Galan777

Originally posted by Ext@nt
Okay thisis my point, Mr M posted facts and scans disproving your claims. Yet you will not listen and ignore them.

This people is why I called them Phoenix Fanboys, cause no matter how much logic and common sense you show them it just dosen't sink in.

Wanda = Omniversal

Phoenix = Multiversal

Bye Bye Birdie! Phoenix has never been proven as even Multiversal.

The PF has been shown as being Universal at best wink

jffxex1980

I really don't know how extant talk so much crap when his head is up his ass. He must be gifted in that area.

Ext@nt

Originally posted by jffxex1980
I really don't know how extant talk so much crap when his head is up his ass. He must be gifted in that area.

Are you capable or acutally showing proof or feats or scans that havent already been disproven or is all you can do insults?

Your the type that gives Fanboys a bad name.

LordKaos

Wanda's chaos wave was powerful indeed, but Meggan was able to halt it and she is one of the most underrated beings in marvel. Jamie pulled Rachel and Betsy to the white hot room because it was untouched by the wave. Betsy saw all her alternate counterparts in the white hot room (the heart of the Phoenix) and they seemed untouched by the wave that was apparently destroying their realities. Marvel doesn't pull these stories out of their from nowhere it takes time to make sure they keep things as close to continuity as possible, there is a reason they made sure Endsong happened before HOM, Phoenix would have posed a threat to the entire story. Wanda brought back every mutant who ever died, but she somehow neglected to bring back Jean, that and there was never any mention of her, except when Rachel and Betsy were in the white hot room.

Ext@nt

Wanda's power exteneds further then Phoenix's

Phoenix = Universal

Wanda = Omniversal

Her feats trump Phoenix's

As you say Jean was dead hence Wanda probably didn't take her into account when remaking things.

White hot room seems to be close to DCU's Vanishing Point, In that it exists outside of time and space and immune to time and reality alterations.

However, WCP is not.

jffxex1980

Originally posted by Ext@nt
Wanda's power exteneds further then Phoenix's

Phoenix = Universal

Wanda = Omniversal

Her feats trump Phoenix's

As you say Jean was dead hence Wanda probably didn't take her into account when remaking things.

White hot room seems to be close to DCU's Vanishing Point, In that it exists outside of time and space and immune to time and reality alterations.

However, WCP is not.

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/spotlight/showquestion.asp?faq=10&fldAuto=60

I don't know why you have such animosity towards the PF.

Sub_Mariner

I don't know why your Wanda hatin'.

Not cool.

Ext@nt

Wanda has feats on panel that would make the WCP crap in her pants.

newjak86

Now I'm going to have to be fair here.

While me and GS have never really seen eye to eye on the Phoenix people are being a little overzealous at the moment with the Chaoswave.

The fact is that Phoenix in the eyes of the X-Men universe is as GS says while in reality the whole of marvel is different.

Now I've always thought this would be retconned and the Phoenix would loose some of tis high standing.

That being said I don't see this as being that.

First while throwing out Omniverse and Multiverse sounds great the only reality that was infact changed was 616. Now I know somethings are used to try and explain that the point is we don't know how effective or how big this really was. Heck even the Phoenix force has been shown to branch into many of the Multiverses.

So here is what we do know that 616 was changed but on what scale we don't even know that. For the most part it was limited to Earth we have no clue as to whether other parts of 616 was effected after the initial showing.

Next what else we know about how things happen we never see any of the higher abstract beings stepping in. We never see Eternity or the Living Tribunal taking notice of this.

Now to be fair this means two things.

A) The Chaoswave was so overpowering that Eternity or the likes never had a chance to stop it but seeing as they have fought against the IG before its hard to see this.

B) It wasn't big enough a threat to take on.

Next as to just how the Chaoswave comes about. We know Wanda seemingly brings it about but this has its own ups and downs. For instance Wanda is a mutant. This means that in reality she is supposed to be able to extend and eventually become a part of the Phoenix force as well.

So was this Chaoswave solely based on her powers or her taping into the Phoenix Force allowing her to use her full potential???

Or did the Wanda have help from a higher up increasing her power???

In the End we don't know enough about what happened how high up the food chain it really goes and just how effective it is. We don't even know just what this Ascension is and whether it truely is heaven.

And with Phoenix Warsong coming out alot of this HOM stuff could be retconned after that really easily. You guys may be right but there is alot of room to be wrong as well especially with such a limited event.

Ext@nt

Phoenix healed an infected future by making scott fall in love with emma.

That may be impressive, but it doesnt compare to being able to warp the entire reality and possibly causing the entire collapse of the omniverse. Wanda couldve wiped out everything leaving nothing left.

And all Wanda has to say is "No more Phoenix" and it's over.

No where does it say anything baout Wanda's power has anything to do with the Phoenix.

Wanda could remove Jean's mutant powers, hence shes no longer an Omega and unable to house the Phoenix Force for very long.

People who aren't Omega's and try to house the Phoenix are tramuatized by it.

Examples:
Scott in X-men vs Teen Titans
Emma recently in Phoenix Warsong

When her power is fully active Wanda cannot be killed as poor Hawkeye found out.

newjak86

Originally posted by Ext@nt
Phoenix healed an infected future by making scott fall in love with emma.

That may be impressive, but it doesnt compare to being able to warp the entire reality and possibly causing the entire collapse of the omniverse. Wanda couldve wiped out everything leaving nothing left.

And all Wanda has to say is "No more Phoenix" and it's over.

No where does it say anything baout Wanda's power has anything to do with the Phoenix.

Wanda could remove Jean's mutant powers, hence shes no longer an Omega and unable to house the Phoenix Force for very long.

People who aren't Omega's and try to house the Phoenix are tramuatized by it.

Examples:
Scott in X-men vs Teen Titans
Emma recently in Phoenix Warsong

When her power is fully active Wanda cannot be killed as poor Hawkeye found out. Obviously you didn't read a single thing I said and took one part of it to discuss.

Listen what you say may be true but in reality you don't know. And as you said for the most part possibly doing this and in fact we do not know how much effect the Chaoswave really has and how it originated and came about.

Yes it came from Wanda but we do not know exactly how all of a sudden she just turned into God. It is quite plausable she was simply being powered up by someone else, the Phoenix part was an example and I think the most likely if Marvel X-Men writers want to keep playing it up.

Finally like I said there is not enough of a showing to reall describe just how big HOM really is going to play in Marvel History and can easily be changed and certain parts revealed with others being retconned within the next 2 years.

Ext@nt

So the basis for your arugement is that SOMETIME in the future Marvel MAY retcon it? Well when they do you can use it. But for now it hasn't been retconned and we have Avengers Dissasembled and the entire House of M storyline to go on and it has allot of on panel feats.

I think we have enough to go on for this one. She turned into a God cause Marvel wanted to turn her into one. She had the power all along she just never fully tapped into it until she lost control. And she used it before to "make" her children. And it could've just been a secondary mutation as well.

Wanda whispers "No more Phoenix" and makes the majority of this forum really really happy.

Galan777

Originally posted by newjak86
Yes it came from Wanda but we do not know exactly how all of a sudden she just turned into God. Wanda has always had these "chaos powers" her psychotic demeaner is what unlocked her powers to unheard of levels. And she has ALWAYS been a walking plot device anyway lol!

Originally posted by newjak86
It is quite plausable she was simply being powered up by someone else, the Phoenix part was an example and I think the most likely if Marvel X-Men writers want to keep playing it up. It may be possible, but to date nothing like this has ever been shown or depicted on pannel, so as of right now, we can not interpret it this way. As this is nothing but oppinion (right now)

Originally posted by newjak86
Finally like I said there is not enough of a showing to reall describe just how big HOM really is going to play in Marvel History and can easily be changed and certain parts revealed with others being retconned within the next 2 years. Again, you may be correct and certain parts of HOM may EVENTUALLY be retconned, but as of now its all cannon. What you have stated is only your oppinion.....

newjak86

Originally posted by Galan777
Wanda has always had these "chaos powers" her psychotic demeaner is what unlocked her powers to unheard of levels. And she has ALWAYS been a walking plot device lol! I didn't know she always had these powers roll eyes (sarcastic)

That doesn't change the fact that she has never shown this type of power or large scale manipualtion before.

Then again the point is you can interpret it this way as there are a number of factors that are unanswered and holes that have been left open that Marvel itself says it will explain as time goes on.

That and even the on panel feats are iffy as I said. For instance someone mentions the Assencion and people are saying that the wave effected everything until it reached Heaven. You just can't do that I mean it was effecting and going through many realities but only ended up effecting one.

Odin has sent shockwaves throughout the Multiverse before is he all of a sudden a Multiversal power above the likes of Eternity. No he isn't

Is this Chaoswave really Omniversal or even Multiversal no. What we do know is that in the end it only ended up effecting the 616 Universe

An yes it is my opinion that it is such but then again this is yours as well. And listen this isn't some one time event that is never going to be enlightened on again Marvel itself has left holes in the story for MANY different opinions to be in it and has even said there is more to the story.

So yeah m Opinion is just as valid as yours because in reality that is what you have because on panel feats are cannon but then again on panel feats with holes and more coming can be taken with a grain of salt. wink

Thanos_THOTU

Originally posted by Sub_Mariner
Who Wins?

No PIS, CIS, Prep, Fight in an empty dimension.

Full power of the chaos wave Witch.

Debate away!
I allready did this about a half year ago.
And then Phoenix got most votes.

Galan777

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
I allready did this about a half year ago.
And then Phoenix got most votes. half a year ago? You have been registered about 4 months confused

Thanos_THOTU

Originally posted by Galan777
half a year ago? You have been registered about 4 months confused

Oh, perhaps it was two-three moths then.
However, then White Phoenix won.

However, I belive that Wanda form House of M is powerful.
And the chaos wave is the generated energy from all the universes.

I think (I'm not sure though) that the Living Tribunal could have stoped it.

Mr Master

Originally posted by LordKaos
Wanda's chaos wave was powerful indeed, but Meggan was able to halt it and she is one of the most underrated beings in marvel.

Meggan slowed it down for a few seconds or One panel., she was never able to "halt" it.

To Halt something is to stop it completely.

And she is underrated I agree, thats because she seldom uses her full potential like she did against the Wave.

Originally posted by LordKaos
Jamie pulled Rachel and Betsy to the white hot room because it was untouched by the wave. Betsy saw all her alternate counterparts in the white hot room (the heart of the Phoenix) and they seemed untouched by the wave that was apparently destroying their realities.

So were many other Realities, the WHR just wasn't in its path yet.

Mad Jim Jaspers also Warped the White Hot Room (Heart of the Phoenix) like child's play.

This is the WHR

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/3728/wyz2.th.jpg

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/7650/m2jo5.th.jpg

Jaspers teleported Rachel and Betsy to the Room, then after a short while he begins to Morph the White Hot Room

http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/2512/j1ma3.th.jpg

He appears flying by an image of Captain Britain

http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/3619/j2hw6.th.jpg

Jim Jaspers with total control of the WHR
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/4193/j3cw1.th.jpg

Jim Warps it into a Crystal like object.

Originally posted by LordKaos
Marvel doesn't pull these stories out of their from nowhere it takes time to make sure they keep things as close to continuity as possible, there is a reason they made sure Endsong happened before HOM, Phoenix would have posed a threat to the entire story. Wanda brought back every mutant who ever died, but she somehow neglected to bring back Jean, that and there was never any mention of her, except when Rachel and Betsy were in the white hot room.

Come on guy, Jean has never faced a Universel destroyer.
Jean has NEVER destroyed, remade or created a Universe On Panel.

What threat? laughing out loud

Thanos_THOTU

Originally posted by Mr Master
Come on guy, Jean has never faced a Universel destroyer.
Jean has NEVER destroyed, remade or created a Universe On Panel.

What threat? laughing out loud

She did reverse time and unmade something as white Phoenix wink

But . . . can that really be compared to what Wanda is capable of roll eyes (sarcastic)

ExodusCloak

Isn't that Jamie Braddock? Who treated the WTR as his play pen?

Mr Master

Originally posted by newjak86
First while throwing out Omniverse and Multiverse sounds great the only reality that was infact changed was 616. Now I know somethings are used to try and explain that the point is we don't know how effective or how big this really was.

"She's starting to REMAKE Reality 616... again" (more than once she did it)
http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/4126/wanad2jy7.th.jpg

"You might not even exist anymore in whatever New Reality takes its place"
http://img326.imageshack.us/img326/5289/wanda3pi5.th.jpg

Originally posted by newjak86
Heck even the Phoenix force has been shown to branch into many of the Multiverses.

VIA the Multi-verse Interface Alignment but, who's counting.

This is before the Phoenix even came into the picture:

It clearly says "when a series of interfaces across the Multiverse were aligned, the localized energy fields merged... to Create an Energy Matrix."

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/2029/tower12vr2dv.th.jpg

The Energy fields merge ON THEIR OWN... and the Interfaces across the Mulitverse Align BY THEMSELVES...

AT the MOMENT of ALIGNMENT, THEN Feron called Phoenix to project the Tower",

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/1399/tower26ug4lz.th.jpg

a less than monumental feat... considering it was the Energy Matrix (ON IT"S OWN) that allows simultaneous existence in the Multiverse when the Interfaces Across are Aligned, Which Also happens ON it's OWN.....

Phoenix made a duplicate of the original Tower and it simultaneously duplicated itself across the Multi-verse because of the Interface Alingment.

Bottomline: Without the Interface Alignment, this Feat would Never exist.

Originally posted by newjak86
So here is what we do know that 616 was changed but on what scale we don't even know that. For the most part it was limited to Earth we have no clue as to whether other parts of 616 was effected after the initial showing.

Up top, read.

Originally posted by newjak86
Next what else we know about how things happen we never see any of the higher abstract beings stepping in. We never see Eternity or the Living Tribunal taking notice of this.

Dude, Captain Britain has the Power to Re-Write the Omni-verse.

He's the guy they sent.

Mastermind (NOT the Mutant) was going to REMAKE the Omni-verse in his image, but Excalibur only works if your worthy

"The Sword of Might united with the Amulet of Right, possesses the Power to REMAKE the Cosmos" (Omni-verse)
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/6563/ex1gj1.th.jpg

Brian Braddock becomes the Omniversal Guardian

"With IT (Excalibur) you shall protect the Omni-verse"
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/3893/ex3cv1.th.jpg

The only thing LT is concerned with is Multiversal balance.

http://img320.imageshack.us/img320/7840/ltny5.th.jpg

That wasn't the case with the Chaos Wave, because the Wave is a Force that just crashes universes into one.

http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/4164/chaoslb3.th.jpg

And still, this is how the Wave is considered:

http://img288.imageshack.us/img288/4247/cheb1.th.jpg
"No more coherence to Causality, Chaos Beyond the comprehension of any Sentience, No matter how Grandiose it's opinion of itself"

Originally posted by newjak86
And with Phoenix Warsong coming out alot of this HOM stuff could be retconned after that really easily.

Warsong already been out, it's not written by Grant Morrison and Phoenix now seems to be controlled through 3 girls.

Same ol' Phoenix

Originally posted by newjak86
You guys may be right but there is alot of room to be wrong as well especially with such a limited event.

Well Jean has never destroyed, remade or created a Universe.
So she loses right there.

harri

there is no dout that wite pheinix has it but dark phenix is the best
ecxept for ion

Mr Master

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Isn't that Jamie Braddock? Who treated the WTR as his play pen?

It is actually.

typo, my bad.

ExodusCloak

Originally posted by harri
there is no dout that wite pheinix has it but dark phenix is the best
ecxept for ion

Ah cool...I thought I was losing it for a sec... big grin

yer

this thread isnt exactly fair since we dont really know much about WPOTC's power level at all. HOM Wanda had an entire overpublicised crossover event dedicated to show her power while WPOTC has appeared when, the end of the Here Comes Tomorrow arc and in the last few panels of endsong?

Ext@nt

The WPOTC has been around since the 80's we know enough about it.

lando005

here's an intersting question we have no idea how wanda effected the cosmic being in the HOM we dont even know if they were effected, let alone the requred beings of the 616 univers like eternity and galatcus pheonix has been described as a nessicary part of the universe could wanda's power really rewrite it?

newjak86

Originally posted by Mr Master
"She's starting to REMAKE Reality 616... again" (more than once she did it)
http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/4126/wanad2jy7.th.jpg

"You might not even exist anymore in whatever New Reality takes its place"
http://img326.imageshack.us/img326/5289/wanda3pi5.th.jpg

VIA the Multi-verse Interface Alignment but, who's counting.

This is before the Phoenix even came into the picture:

It clearly says "when a series of interfaces across the Multiverse were aligned, the localized energy fields merged... to Create an Energy Matrix."

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/2029/tower12vr2dv.th.jpg

The Energy fields merge ON THEIR OWN... and the Interfaces across the Mulitverse Align BY THEMSELVES...

AT the MOMENT of ALIGNMENT, THEN Feron called Phoenix to project the Tower",

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/1399/tower26ug4lz.th.jpg

a less than monumental feat... considering it was the Energy Matrix (ON IT"S OWN) that allows simultaneous existence in the Multiverse when the Interfaces Across are Aligned, Which Also happens ON it's OWN.....

Phoenix made a duplicate of the original Tower and it simultaneously duplicated itself across the Multi-verse because of the Interface Alingment.

Bottomline: Without the Interface Alignment, this Feat would Never exist.

Up top, read.

Dude, Captain Britain has the Power to Re-Write the Omni-verse.

He's the guy they sent.

Mastermind (NOT the Mutant) was going to REMAKE the Omni-verse in his image, but Excalibur only works if your worthy

"The Sword of Might united with the Amulet of Right, possesses the Power to REMAKE the Cosmos" (Omni-verse)
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/6563/ex1gj1.th.jpg

Brian Braddock becomes the Omniversal Guardian

"With IT (Excalibur) you shall protect the Omni-verse"
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/3893/ex3cv1.th.jpg

The only thing LT is concerned with is Multiversal balance.

http://img320.imageshack.us/img320/7840/ltny5.th.jpg

That wasn't the case with the Chaos Wave, because the Wave is a Force that just crashes universes into one.

http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/4164/chaoslb3.th.jpg

And still, this is how the Wave is considered:

http://img288.imageshack.us/img288/4247/cheb1.th.jpg
"No more coherence to Causality, Chaos Beyond the comprehension of any Sentience, No matter how Grandiose it's opinion of itself"

Warsong already been out, it's not written by Grant Morrison and Phoenix now seems to be controlled through 3 girls.

Same ol' Phoenix

Well Jean has never destroyed, remade or created a Universe.
So she loses right there. Where to begin with this.

OK first as you've shown she recreated 616 over and over not anything else so once again only 616 was effected and at the end going by on panel items we never see just how bad the universe was effected and whether most of it was confined to Earth.

Next for great Britain you want to talk of on panel feats since when has that combination ever been shown to recreate the Omni-verse. I don't think it has and guess what he doesn't say he is going to rewrite the Omni-verse he states he can rewrite the cosmos as to how far and to what extent just like the Chaoswave we do not know just that. Let me ask you something who is the guardian of the Universe for 616 its either Adam Warlock or Quasar my mind is drawing a blank right now but ti doesn't matter because non of those are univesal in power anyways point still made. So being made an Omniversal Gaurdian does not equate to Omniversal power less it has been shown that it is.

As for LT he has been shown to get involved enough times that if many universes were threatened he normall attempts to step in and other Abstracts as well like Eternity.

Next as for Warsong it is out my bad I wasn't planning on picking it up but once again it was only one example.

Because already shown and stated in Civil War by writers that HOM and what it truely was about has yet to be completely revealed.

Because of that they left holes and unrevealed items yet to be shown to us.

So as of right now here are the facts concerning the Chaos wave.

It originated from wanda(Who has never shown such power before)

It may have been felt through many universes and even the mutliverse but in the end it still only effected 616 Universe and yet still we do not know how badly. (Heck Odin in a fight has sent Shockwaves thrugh the Multiverse in a fight once again doesn't mean he is Multiversal or even Universal in power.)

Everything else is just speculation and throwing vague and sometimes putting things together that don't belong together much like GS did with the Phoenix.

So before everyone blows the Chaoswave out of proportion like the Cosmic Bunny of Whirlyspat everyon take a deep breath. Realize that we really don't know enough about the wave to really gauge its power correctly especially sine the writers still have more to give us.

xjustice69x

well said newjak86 i agree

Thanos_THOTU

Originally posted by xjustice69x
well said newjak86 i agree
Actually I have too agree as well.

However, I have never read the series (House of M) but I heard a couple of times over that the Excalibur absorbed the Chaos wave.
And the Chaos wave was going to affect "all realities".

However, Beyonder was not millions of times stronger than a Multi-verse.
His power equalled the rest of the Multi-verse (All the universes) combinded millions of times.

Why just millions of times? -- Becuase Molecule man had a fraction of Beyonders power and was present in the Multi-verse.

Omni-verse (Now) = All universes (infinity) in Marvel
Multi-verse (1980s) = All universes (infinity) in Marvel, exept for the Beyond realm.

Beyonder was all there was in the Multi-verse and Beyond.

I would put him up with TOAA/God.
I am still unsure about Thanos in the End, because he stated that he only destroyed a universe. -- But I am working on it.

Ext@nt

And the Phoenix Fanboys agree, while the rest of us stand in shock, amazement and a shitload of pity.

Wanda's power extends beyond Phoeinx's. Wanda's feats extend beyond Phoenix's.

Wanda could turn Jean from an Omega mutant to human with a thought.

Wanda says no more Phoenix, The Phoenix Fanboys cry and cry while we smile and laugh.

lando005

the only thing that bothers me is that wanda isnt normally that powerfull whre did that huge boost in power come from? and we have no idea how she would effect someone on the cosmic scale

Ext@nt

She always had the power, she just didn't realize it and shes yused it before long ago when she first made her children (of course I already mentioned this earlier in the thread and no one reads)

And she really effected Genis-vell who is definately on the cosmic scale.

"No More Phoenix" smile

Thanos_THOTU

Originally posted by Ext@nt
She always had the power, she just didn't realize it and shes yused it before long ago when she first made her children (of course I already mentioned this earlier in the thread and no one reads)

And she really effected Genis-vell who is definately on the cosmic scale.

"No More Phoenix" smile

. . . Phoenix would lose.
But not as badly as the most here thinks.
Wanda's wave is slightly above the Nullifier, maybe even the Infinity Gauntlet . . . But no futher.

Galan777

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
. . . Phoenix would lose.
But not as badly as the most here thinks.
Wanda's wave is slightly above the Nullifier, maybe even the Infinity Gauntlet . . . But no futher. And what did the UN do again? Ohhhh yeah, it destroyed and recreated the Multiverse........ The Phoenix has been proven as simply a Universal force, Wanda is no less then Multiversal in nature.

So yes the Phoenix looses,

MORE then most think wink

lando005

my thing is no omega level mutant has show that level of power to suggest that she naturally has that level of power means she's far more than a cosmic or an abstract which she's not there has to be some other explaination for the HOM level of power

harri

you all talk crap phenix is th 3rd best
mad

Thanos_THOTU

Originally posted by Galan777
And what did the UN do again? Ohhhh yeah, it destroyed and recreated the Multiverse........ The Phoenix has been proven as simply a Universal force, Wanda is no less then Multiversal in nature.

So yes the Phoenix looses,

MORE then most think wink

One blink and Jean's dead . . .
But still . . . There are beings who could take on Wanda, shes a bit overestimated.

lando005

am i the only one who finds it weird people are saying wanda's more powerful than the universal abstracts?

Mr Master

Originally posted by lando005
am i the only one who finds it weird people are saying wanda's more powerful than the universal abstracts?

It's not wierd,

because Wanda REMADE (RECREATED) ETERNITY.

Now even though we have non believers even though I presented the conclusive EVIDENCE of her REMAKING Reality 616, I see the dude writing "were not sure to what extent 616 was Remade when it CLEARLY says:

"She's starting to REMAKE Reality 616... again" again again again!
http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/4126/wanad2jy7.th.jpg

"Who knows how she'll change Everything this time"
http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/355/wanda4iu5.th.jpg

As for that other dude that gave us a monologue of his vison or interpretation of the On Panel events, I have a "shut that boy down surprise"....

So he disputing the FACT that Excalibur and the Amulet of Right together can REMAKE the OMNI-VERSE.

I've prepared the Scans,

that SHOW MERLIN (while possessing Both Excalibur and the Amulet) and Roma casually playing a game of Chess, and the Chess Board is the Multi-verse and the Chess pieces are beings representing UNIVERSES.

Merlin manipulating EVERY evnt that takes place in the Omni-verse.

Even funnier than that, they show MERLIN in his Realm with MANY Chess Boards and each BOARD Representing a Multi-verse.

Anyways, tomorrow I "shut down the non-believers"....

Ext@nt

Originally posted by lando005
am i the only one who finds it weird people are saying wanda's more powerful than the universal abstracts?

You just said it yourself right there, UNIVERSAL, Phoenix's powers effect the universe only.

Wanda's power is Omniversal, she can effect everything in EVERY universe.

No more phoenix, could there BE any sweeter words? stick out tongue

newjak86

Originally posted by Mr Master
It's not wierd,

because Wanda REMADE (RECREATED) ETERNITY.

Now even though we have non believers even though I presented the conclusive EVIDENCE of her REMAKING Reality 616, I see the dude writing "were not sure to what extent 616 was Remade when it CLEARLY says:

"She's starting to REMAKE Reality 616... again" again again again!
http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/4126/wanad2jy7.th.jpg

"Who knows how she'll change Everything this time"
http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/355/wanda4iu5.th.jpg

As for that other dude that gave us a monologue of his vison or interpretation of the On Panel events, I have a "shut that boy down surprise"....

So he disputing the FACT that Excalibur and the Amulet of Right together can REMAKE the OMNI-VERSE.

I've prepared the Scans,

that SHOW MERLIN (while possessing Both Excalibur and the Amulet) and Roma casually playing a game of Chess, and the Chess Board is the Multi-verse and the Chess pieces are beings representing UNIVERSES.

Merlin manipulating EVERY evnt that takes place in the Omni-verse.

Even funnier than that, they show MERLIN in his Realm with MANY Chess Boards and each BOARD Representing a Multi-verse.

Anyways, tomorrow I "shut down the non-believers".... Once again where is the on panel showings of lets say Silver surfer being effected or Galactus being effected where are they oh yeah they aren't there. we don't even see actually it effecting Eternity the being we see two panels saying she remade 616 over and over and then we never just how bad and conclusive those statements are.

As for this other dudes monolouge and that "shut down boy surprise" weren't you the one that said simple representations don't mean jack like when Jean Grey was holding the universe or as you put not actually holding a universe just its representation.

So basically your going to show me scans of things that GS tried to pull off again.

newjak86

Tried to edit this in but I ran out of time.

Edit: By the way I'm going to be a doubter until the full story is out when a true estimate of how bad the Chaoswave really was and not some half baked idea involving artifacts that can remake the Omniverse on a whim(haven't even seen this) being weilded by a much lesser being then the person your going to show me as solid proof. at least with GS he gave me a scan of Jean doing said feat not someone else who is remarkably more powerful than the person who actually did it.

And rammbling on about Omniversal power based on a few on panel feats where in the end only 616 was effected and only 616 was shown to be made over and over.

Because at the end of this no matter what you say its only going to be ranting because thats all you've got because you don't know the whole story and unless you work at Marvel your not going to know before me what was going on.

juggernaut66666

Originally posted by newjak86
Once again where is the on panel showings of lets say Silver surfer being effected or Galactus being effected where are they oh yeah they aren't there. we don't even see actually it effecting Eternity the being we see two panels saying she remade 616 over and over and then we never just how bad and conclusive those statements are.

As for this other dudes monolouge and that "shut down boy surprise" weren't you the one that said simple representations don't mean jack like when Jean Grey was holding the universe or as you put not actually holding a universe just its representation.

So basically your going to show me scans of things that GS tried to pull off again.
Oh so in that case whenever a character destroys or re-creates the Universe it is needed to be shown that it effected for example Prof-x or the Thing or Antman other wise they weren't effected by it ????

ExodusCloak

Didn't Roma show everybody the effects of the Chaos Wave on the Omniverse had Captain Britan not sealed the breach in 24 hours..?

It says the alterations were on a global scale...which intially they probably were...this probably cause the breach...however later on in Exiles she is described as remaking the 616 Universe many times.

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/4812/uncannyxmen462page18hk7.th.jpg

Exiles....remaking 616 Again...
http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/4126/wanad2jy7.jpg

ExodusCloak

Yep...Romas Celestial Nullifier "should" have been able to stop it by removing 616 from existence...before the wave spilled over into other realities...the waves main weakness is that it doesn't change the entire Omniverse in an instant...the alteration only happens as the wave progresses throughout reality.

However if Wanda is standing 10m away from her enemy...speed shouldn't make a difference....the wave greatest feat is it shows the jurisdiction of her powers.

Funny enough Jamie Braddock was uneffected by the wave...and he managed to save Psylocke and Rachel from it...so I wonder how he ranks on the power scale...(It should be noted that he has been shown to slip in and out of reality...so he could have just shifted into another reality as the wave....intially made it's way through 616)

lando005

i'm not disputing her abilities i'm disputing her level of power yes she had the ability to warp reaility to give herselr childern but that on a completly diffrent scale of power from rewriteing an intier universe she's never generated that kind of energy before you relly tellingme she's more powerful than the beyonder now even if she's a omega level it still doesnt make sense the things she's doing goes way beyond her power level

newjak86

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
Oh so in that case whenever a character destroys or re-creates the Universe it is needed to be shown that it effected for example Prof-x or the Thing or Antman other wise they weren't effected by it ???? No because all of Earth and even Doc Strange was effected therefore we know everything beow it was effected. If they had shwo Galactus or Eternity being changed then we would have known that everything below it was change

But instead what we got was a reference to 616 being changed and then we never see anything past Earth being effected for the most part.

Ext@nt

Well thats the way Marvel wrote it, and it was her power level all along.

Read the opening to New Avengers #2, it even say that in her madness she tapped into the full power of her reality altering ability.

It remains, Wanda's power extends futher then Phoenix's.

Wanda says "No More Phoenix" and we all celebrate.

Wanda's power extends tto the omniverse. Phoenix's power is localized to one universe and thats it.

Wanda can effect Eternity himself.

Eternity > Phoenix

Fanboys, give it up, people are trying to explain it to you every which way they can.

juggernaut66666

Originally posted by newjak86
No because all of Earth and even Doc Strange was effected therefore we know everything beow it was effected. If they had shwo Galactus or Eternity being changed then we would have known that everything below it was change

But instead what we got was a reference to 616 being changed and then we never see anything past Earth being effected for the most part.
The the ultimate nullifier didn't effect Galactus cause it wasn't showed on panel laughing

newjak86

Originally posted by Ext@nt
Well thats the way Marvel wrote it, and it was her power level all along.

Read the opening to New Avengers #2, it even say that in her madness she tapped into the full power of her reality altering ability.

It remains, Wanda's power extends futher then Phoenix's.

Wanda says "No More Phoenix" and we all celebrate.

Wanda's power extends tto the omniverse. Phoenix's power is localized to one universe and thats it.

Wanda can effect Eternity himself.

Eternity > Phoenix

Fanboys, give it up, people are trying to explain it to you every which way they can. Ext@nt I'm only going to tell you this once and hopefully it will be enough so that you understand me perfectly.

I'm not argueing what level of power Phoenix is on becuase that is a whole other arguement. What I'm tryin to tell you is this that we don't know enough about the true nature of the Chaoswave to really give it such a high pedistal for now.

Basically everyone reads and makes some connections and all of a sudden people are saying it was stopped just short of heaven and thus everything below TOAA is below the weaker than the Wave.

I remember someone(GS) making the same claims with Phoenix using the same type of loose connections and came to the same conclusion and he had more stuff then even you guys did.

The Point before we give the Chaoswave to much credit wait lets see the whole picture and realize there are gaps until filled in.

newjak86

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
The the ultimate nullifier didn't effect Galactus cause it wasn't showed on panel laughing

Ok I don't see how that really helps you but I'l try and explain this as simple as possible.

This isn't something being said and then not seeing it on panel.

WE DON'T SEE ANYTHING ABOUT THE HIGHER UPS OF THE UNIVERSE NOT EVEN A REFERNCE.

All we see is 616 Earth being changed and no rmention not even a slight on of anything else being changed.

And for refernce I dout it did effect the big higher ups.

Ext@nt

Yes we do have enough info.

We have:

Avengers dissasembled
A few issues of Excalibur
HOM
HOM crossovers

She almost destoryed the omniverse itself. That's WAYYY over Phoenix's powerlevel. Wanda can remake eternity, and eternity is higher up then the Phoenix.

Wanda could destory the omniverse which would destroy the Phoenix. Who's to say in Wanda's HOM the Phoenix even existed anymore?

Stop looking for excuses for the Phoenix. I think we have ample proof of the Choaswave's power seeing as how, oh yeah that's right, it almost destroyed EVERYTHING!!

Fanboys, learn to lose.

newjak86

Originally posted by Ext@nt
Yes we do have enough info.

We have:

Avengers dissasembled
A few issues of Excalibur
HOM
HOM crossovers

She almost destoryed the omniverse itself. That's WAYYY over Phoenix's powerlevel. Wanda can remake eternity, and eternity is higher up then the Phoenix.

Wanda could destory the omniverse which would destroy the Phoenix. Who's to say in Wanda's HOM the Phoenix even existed anymore?

Stop looking for excuses for the Phoenix. I think we have ample proof of the Choaswave's power seeing as how, oh yeah that's right, it almost destroyed EVERYTHING!!

Fanboys, learn to lose. Ext@nt learn to read becuase I'm no saying that the Chaoswave isn't stronger than the Phoenix I'm saying that we don't have enough evidence.

We have Mr. M coming throwing togther things that he doesn't have any right to do. He is claiming things he isn't sure off. He is basically saying that Captain Britain at the time the Chaoswave was coming through could change the entire Omniverse on a whim which by the he doesn't know that for sure and there are no on panel feats to prove that what he was saying would happen.

He gave us panels sayong that the cosmos would be rewritten and then someone proclaiming CB guardian of the Omniverse and if that is enough to grant someone a power level then the Guardain of the Universe is Universal in power right but Quasar isn't.

Before you go spouting off and having orgasim make sure you understand that there are holes in everything being shown and even more holes in the actual story because the writers chose for that to take place because they didn't want to give everything away because they want to do it later and thereofre for the whole picture we must wait for it.

So get of this Cahoswave Bullsh*t for now and realize its like Superman Prime or devil Hulk a very limited appearance with very limited and holed feats isn't enough to grant it Omniversal power just yet.

wink

leonidas

Originally posted by newjak86
Ext@nt learn to read becuase I'm no saying that the Chaoswave isn't stronger than the Phoenix I'm saying that we don't have enough evidence.

We have Mr. M coming throwing togther things that he doesn't have any right to do. He is claiming things he isn't sure off. He is basically saying that Captain Britain at the time the Chaoswave was coming through could change the entire Omniverse on a whim which by the he doesn't know that for sure and there are no on panel feats to prove that what he was saying would happen.

He gave us panels sayong that the cosmos would be rewritten and then someone proclaiming CB guardian of the Omniverse and if that is enough to grant someone a power level then the Guardain of the Universe is Universal in power right but Quasar isn't.

Before you go spouting off and having orgasim make sure you understand that there are holes in everything being shown and even more holes in the actual story because the writers chose for that to take place because they didn't want to give everything away because they want to do it later and thereofre for the whole picture we must wait for it.

So get of this Cahoswave Bullsh*t for now and realize its like Superman Prime or devil Hulk a very limited appearance with very limited and holed feats isn't enough to grant it Omniversal power just yet.

wink

nice.

lando005

leonidas

i would just like one person to show me -- ON PANEL -- that wanda had: (a) and conscious knowledge that she even BEGAN the wave (b) any sort of ability at all to consciously CONTROL the wave.

that's it. show those 2 things and i'll happily concede wanda the win.

newjak86

Originally posted by lando005
listen to what your trying to say wanda a mutant is more powerful than the living tribunal that's basicly what your summing up it doesnt stike you weird at all that powers on that scale ( which are the power levels of cosmics and abstrcts) suddenly fall in to the nads of a mear mutant? there's no way she could have that much power and still be a mutant not even an omega is capable of that Unless of course to want to believe in GS's theory that all mutants especially Omega level mutants are eventually supposed become like the Phoenix because that is the final step in the evolution of mankind.

If you believe that though then all Wanda was doing was taping into the Phoenix Force which really throws the Chaoswave for a loop.

Anyways I don't believe in that.

I also don't believe Wanda could have done it by herself especially on the scale you guys are trying to say.

So once again no one knows enough to really give a truely unbiased point at the moment.

Thanos_THOTU

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Yep...Romas Celestial Nullifier "should" have been able to stop it by removing 616 from existence...before the wave spilled over into other realities...the waves main weakness is that it doesn't change the entire Omniverse in an instant...the alteration only happens as the wave progresses throughout reality.

However if Wanda is standing 10m away from her enemy...speed shouldn't make a difference....the wave greatest feat is it shows the jurisdiction of her powers.

Funny enough Jamie Braddock was uneffected by the wave...and he managed to save Psylocke and Rachel from it...so I wonder how he ranks on the power scale...(It should be noted that he has been shown to slip in and out of reality...so he could have just shifted into another reality as the wave....intially made it's way through 616)
So what you're saying is that the Nullifier could have neutralize the Choas wave, but as a side-effect all the universes the Chaos wave have entered would have been destroyed as well.
So the Nullifier is above the Chaos wave after all.

Thx. big grin

Ext@nt

Okay, peitro told her what to do with the wave, that shows control.

She knew they were comming to deal with her, so she released the wave.

Phoenix Fanboys, get over it.

It's not the same as Superman Prime. He appear for a few panels in ONE comic.

We have allot of issues invovling wanda and her power. It exteneds farther then Phoenix's.

If Wanda wanted to she could wipe out the Phoenix.

And she always had the power, deal with it, Marvel made her more powerfull then your beloved bird, whine and cry to them not us.

And no, we've seen threw many issues what this wave can do and how far its power exteneds, you fanboys just can't handle it and that's sad.

To make it easy for you,

TOAA>LT>Chaoswave>Eternity=Galactus>Phoenix

That's the order of things.

ExodusCloak

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
So what you're saying is that the Nullifier could have neutralize the Choas wave, but as a side-effect all the universes the Chaos wave have entered would have been destroyed as well.
So the Nullifier is above the Chaos wave after all.

Thx. big grin

It should have....because the breach would have been non existant...and therefore the wave would have been stopped....so yeah the Celestial Nullifer could have stopped it...had Jamie not broken it..

As for the Omega Level theory...wasn't that...theory more on the lines of....Omega Mutants have infinite potential....and they can become beings who are "like" Phoenixes....not actual Phoenixes because the Phoenix is supposed to be specific to Jean Greys mutation?

leonidas

anyway, scans would be very cool to prove your points. smile

lando005

Originally posted by Ext@nt
Okay, peitro told her what to do with the wave, that shows control.

She knew they were comming to deal with her, so she released the wave.

Phoenix Fanboys, get over it.

It's not the same as Superman Prime. He appear for a few panels in ONE comic.

We have allot of issues invovling wanda and her power. It exteneds farther then Phoenix's.

If Wanda wanted to she could wipe out the Phoenix.

And she always had the power, deal with it, Marvel made her more powerfull then your beloved bird, whine and cry to them not us.

And no, we've seen threw many issues what this wave can do and how far its power exteneds, you fanboys just can't handle it and that's sad.

To make it easy for you,

TOAA>LT>Chaoswave>Eternity=Galactus>Phoenix

That's the order of things.
you know you sound just as bad as thoes phoenix fanboys your always talking about except you think wanda could do anything soooo does that make you a wanda fanboy?....guess u should start on that golden statue huh

Ext@nt

Mr M has already done that many times.

Unlike him I'm not goona keep playing your game.

Wanda FTW Phoenx and her Fanboys FTL

lando005

Originally posted by Ext@nt
Mr M has already done that many times.

Unlike him I'm not goona keep playing your game.

Wanda FTW Phoenx and her Fanboys FTL nobody's playing any games we'ld just like you to quit ranting on and on about phoenix fanboys if they exist they're not even here in this thread you sound like a broken record

newjak86

Originally posted by leonidas
did . . . you just call me a phoenix fanboy . . .? confused

anyway, scans would be very cool to prove your points. smile

Yes he did me too even though for the past 4 or so pages all I've said was don't blow the Chaoswave out of proportion just yet

Never did I say Phoenix for the win stick out tongue

But hey I've come to figure out that Ext@nt must not read very well.

Just
j/k Ext@nt

But please learn to slow your reading take in every sentence. wink

Ext@nt

Its plain to everyone here save your small group of loyal Phoenix supporters that Wanda would win.

We have loads of info on the wave and wanda's powers considering we have like around 20+ comics where shes used them as reference.

newjak86

Originally posted by Ext@nt
Its plain to everyone here save your small group of loyal Phoenix supporters that Wanda would win.

We have loads of info on the wave and wanda's powers considering we have like around 20+ comics where shes used them as reference. Impling everyone here means a majority but I don't think you and Mr. M count as such does it

Ext@nt

Cause everyone else is sick of dealing with the Phoenix Faboys who try to make her seem more powerful then she is.

newjak86

Originally posted by Ext@nt
Cause everyone else is sick of dealing with the Phoenix Faboys who try to make her seem more powerful then she is. Wouldn't that imply that someone was coming in here and saying that. I mean no one has done that
confused

Thanos_THOTU

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
It should have....because the breach would have been non existant...and therefore the wave would have been stopped....so yeah the Celestial Nullifer could have stopped it...had Jamie not broken it..

As for the Omega Level theory...wasn't that...theory more on the lines of....Omega Mutants have infinite potential....and they can become beings who are "like" Phoenixes....not actual Phoenixes because the Phoenix is supposed to be specific to Jean Greys mutation?
So basicly if you have the power of-/ or the- Nullifier you an nautralize the Chaos wave.
The only reason they couldent survive the wave from 10m distance as you said was because they wouldent have time to active the Nullifier before the wave consumes them.
But if your body contained power (equal or above the Nullifier) the Chaos wave wouldent harm you.

However:
LT >> IG > I-IG >> UN > Chaos wave >> Multi-Eternity >> (any) Phoenix

Ethereal

Pre-Retconned Beyonder > Thanos w/HOTU > LT

lando005

Originally posted by Ext@nt
Cause everyone else is sick of dealing with the Phoenix Faboys who try to make her seem more powerful then she is. like your doing with wanda?

Ext@nt

Originally posted by newjak86
Wouldn't that imply that someone was coming in here and saying that. I mean no one has done that
confused

So your saying Wanda would win then?

lando005

nobody's even talking about the match we're all just wondering how wanda went from being a mutant to the omniversal power u make her out to be

leonidas

Originally posted by Ext@nt
So your saying Wanda would win then?

nice topic shift. wink

so, no scans and anyone who disagrees with you (and apparently, masters?) is a phoenix fanboy?

laughing

stupendous logic.

you don't feel like playing these games?

translation: i have no scans and am relying on master's (and apparently "all the other supporters" of your ideas . . .) interpretations of the events to carry me in this debate.

laughing out loud

again: (and please take careful note i make no/zero/nada/zilcheroo mention of phoenix here because i HATE phoenix and her powerlevel is irrelevent if you cannot prove that wanda can control the wave)

(a) show proof wanda could have controlled the wave (ie -- show she could have stopped it, redirected it, focussed it, ANYTHING, once it was released)

(b) show definitive proof that she was fully aware of the scope of the wave and what it was doing.

sh!te or get off the pot, bro. wink

ExodusCloak

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
So basicly if you have the power of-/ or the- Nullifier you an nautralize the Chaos wave.
The only reason they couldent survive the wave from 10m distance as you said was because they wouldent have time to active the Nullifier before the wave consumes them.
But if your body contained power (equal or above the Nullifier) the Chaos wave wouldent harm you.

However:
LT >> IG > I-IG >> UN > Chaos wave >> Multi-Eternity >> (any) Phoenix

From what's been shown if one could seal the breach before the wave made contact with you then yeah you could halt the wave....by sealing the breach the balance should be fixed...until another breach is opened....

newjak86

Originally posted by leonidas
nice topic shift. wink

so, no scans and anyone who disagrees with you (and apparently, masters?) is a phoenix fanboy?

laughing

leonidas

seriously, i don't get it, nj. i'm not even saying phoenix WOULDN"T have been consumed by the wave. MAYBE she would have. it's meaningless to this debate however if the power wanda needs to destroy phoenix could not be controlled consciously by her.

weird.

meh, that's what we get for being fanboys.

laughing out loud

Ext@nt

lol So your admitting that Wanda would beat the Phoenix well since thats the topic of the thread I guess debates over then.

oh and yes Wanda CAN exert control over the wave she did it to create the House of M and she did it again to wipe out most of the mutants.

That shows control.

manorastroman

Originally posted by Ext@nt
Phoenix = Multiversal

teetee. extant's right. considering that phoenix has been shown to have hosts in multiple universes, i'm not sure how anybody could claim that the force is universal.

i'm with leo and newjak.

lando005

Originally posted by Ext@nt
lol So your admitting that Wanda would beat the Phoenix well since thats the topic of the thread I guess debates over then.

oh and yes Wanda CAN exert control over the wave she did it to create the House of M and she did it again to wipe out most of the mutants.

That shows control. that would be a nice argument except for the fact that there are still mutants around maybe not a whole lot but i belive she said "no more mutants" not "leave all but a few mutants left" gee i guess that allpowerful chaos wave didnt fully understand her huh

newjak86

Originally posted by leonidas
seriously, i don't get it, nj. i'm not even saying phoenix WOULDN"T have been consumed by the wave. MAYBE she would have. it's meaningless to this debate however if the power wanda needs to destroy phoenix could not be controlled consciously by her.

weird.

meh, that's what we get for being fanboys.

laughing out loud

I know what you mean.

Perhaps we should work on our fanboyism it obviously blinds stick out tongue

leonidas

you need more work on your 'subtle' topic shifts and 'careful' efforts to turn the discussion AWAY from the questions put to you.

wink

so you're saying she could have stopped the wave at anytime, recalled it, harnesed it, redirected it? THAT is control. and you're saying she basically KNEW the wave it was about to destroy the omniverse and was . . . all right with that? i just want to be clear on what you (or whoever's ideas you're reciting) think.

smile

Ext@nt

Originally posted by manorastroman
teetee. extant's right. considering that phoenix has been shown to have hosts in multiple universes, i'm not sure how anybody could claim that the force is universal.

i'm with leo and newjak.

There's also many Wolverine's as well in many universes, that doesnt make them Multiversal.

And the Topic of THIS thread is WHo would win in a fight between Wanda and the Phoenix and everyone seems to agree its Wanda so the debate is over.

You ethier think one wins or the other, pick one.

leonidas

Originally posted by Ext@nt
There's also many Wolverine's as well in many universes, that doesnt make them Multiversal.

And the Topic of THIS thread is WHo would win in a fight between Wanda and the Phoenix and everyone seems to agree its Wanda so the debate is over.

You ethier think one wins or the other, pick one.

laughing out loud

who's everyone, again? confused

i said MAYBE the wave would have killed phoenix. that implies the obverse is also possible -- ie, MAYBE it would NOT have killed her.

i also said it doesn't matter if the wave WOULD have, or would NOT have, IF she had no control over it. and it's quite clear to 'everyone' ( big grin

) that you have failed to repeatedly prove your claim that she could control it. (we don't count rants and repeatedly saying 'but she CAN control it!' as actual proof. smile

)

on the point of the battle itself though, how can you be so certain wanda could even activate her power before phoenix lobotimized her? even allowing for the chance wanda was capable of killing her, it STILL boils down then to who could get in the first attack, a universal/mulitversal(??) entity, or a mutant human? even allowing the possibility she could kill phoenix, i STILL don't like her chances of doing it before she's reduced to something on the order of a kumquat.

so by 'everyone', you must have meant 'everyone-except-leo-newjak-manora, right?

smile

Ext@nt

Wanda's power works instantainously, Phoenix's power does not.

So basically your trying to say you think Phoenix Wins, but you don;t want to say it outloud for fear of being called a fanboy?

We have a new one folks, A "closet" Phoenix Fanboy.

Mr Master

The Celestial Nullifier did not and could not stop the Wave.

The Chaos Wave spills over to ther Realities, if you cut one of those Realities out of it's way, it can't continue and stops itself, then the Omni-verse repairs the damage.

Mr Master

Ok, time to shut down that boy.

Newjack you continue to compare me to GS and his antics because your totally clueless about the Excalibur and the Amulet of Right, I forgive you for being ignorant.

You requested proof of their Power, here it is chump. You associating me with the likes of GS is as insulting as me calling you CHUMP.

You said I was talking sh*t but CHUMPS talk alot of shit without knowing anything.

Get ready to apologize.

jffxex1980

Extant, u just hate the phoenis force period. Wanda can certainly take Rachel down BUT there is no way on hell she is taking down the most powerful avatar of the phoenix force. Saying out loud "No more Jean" would not work because the phoenix force is the sum and substance of all creation. Certainly she is powerful, yes BUT she is not going to win this one. She is a very powerful mutant BUT the chaos wave itself is causing a multidimensional tear NOT HER. It's causing a domino affect through out all realities. Think of a pebble being thrown in a water. Despite it's size, it causes continous, radiating ripples.

Mr Master

This is Merlin with ONLY the Sword of Might (Excalibur)

Merlin and Roma begin a game of Chess and Multi-verse 616 is their Chess Board.
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/1920/m1rx1.th.jpg

Notice there are many Chess Boards floating around them, EACH Board representing a Multi-verse
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/3724/m2nv7.th.jpg

As Merlin and Roma moved their Chess Pieces, Reality is Altered accordingly
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/7885/m3yx7.th.jpg
Even Mad Jim Jaspers, (the Omniversal threat) is just One of their Game Pieces

The Game continues
http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/1174/m4ue9.th.jpg
Merlin realizes he underestimated the determination of the Fury (a creature created by Jaspers 238)

Merlin says, "I've missed something, I, of all people"
http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/9338/m5sz7.th.jpg
Roma responds, "No one is infallible Father, sometimes I think a strong wind will blow you over"
Merlin replies, "Ah yes, but I MAKE the WINDS"

Roma says, "and that Father, did you make that"?
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/9697/m6he3.th.jpg
That's the Fury.

As the Fury is about to kill Linda Mcquillan (Captain UK) in Multi-verse 616.
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/8533/m7rl3.th.jpg
Merlin protects her, by covering the Chess piece with his hands

As you can see, his hands get burned by the Fury (a creature that killed every Super hero in the 238 Universe within TWO Hours)
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/589/m8kd5.th.jpg
The Fury is in disbelief that Linda survived

Roma begins to have a vision, Jaspers was not supposed to be part of this Game she thinks, but Merlin set it up like that (later we learn he's training her for her future position as Omniversal Guardian), and if a Multi-verse has to DIE in order to prepare her properly, so be it.
http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/1782/m9ej7.th.jpghttp://img349.imageshack.us/img349/2961/m10cr3.th.jpg
"But if this Game is Lost, I see a Universe eaten alive by Chaos, and ANOTHER Universe, and ANOTHER, like Dominos, Tumbling...I see the Future"

continues in the next post...

Mr Master

continues...

Roma wants to stop the Game, "with So much at stake (the 616 Multi-verse) your Play is erratic" she tells Merlin.
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/8279/m12an6.th.jpg
Merlin could care less though, her training is more important than ONE Multi-verse, when there's an Infinite number of Multi-verses to Protect.

Merlin get angry at Roma for wanting to stop the Game
http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/9992/m13tn7.th.jpg
but Roma doesn't understand Merlin's motives completely yet

And so the Game proceeds
http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/4741/m14sd4.th.jpg

Merlin here begins to focus on Captain Britain, for he too is in this dangerous training and doesn't even know it.
http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/3286/m15en5.th.jpg

Merlin says, "I stretched your sanity to the breaking point to prepare you for a Universe (238) Reduced to Idiocy" the Omniversal Tribune Erased 238.
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/2566/m16hl3.th.jpg
Merlin says about Cap. Britain, "I sent you to a lesser menace (Jaspers 238) and you were Killed"

"Merlin says, "You cannot fail, this version of Japers is too powerful, too dangerous"
http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/1219/m17iu3.th.jpg
They had to destroy the entire 238 Universe in order to kill 238 Jaspers, but 616 Jaspers is "NOT so easily contained, and if he's not stopped, the OMNI-VERSE will fall into Chaos, and a NEW GOD shall play dice with Matter"

Mad Jim jaspers 616, with FULL control of the 616 Universe
http://img349.imageshack.us/img349/7223/m18gy5.th.jpg

http://img290.imageshack.us/img290/2392/m19zi6.th.jpg

continues in the next post...

Mr Master

continues...

Roma says, "The Game's disintegrating, but the MULTI-VERSE DEPENDS upon the GAME"
http://img349.imageshack.us/img349/1124/m20uy7.th.jpg
Roma thinks they've lost the 616 Multi-verse, but actually Merlin knew Jaspers would lose to the Fury, so he fakes his death and allows Roma to finish the rest.

Roma says, "It's over, the Pieces must be gathered up" (Captain Britain, Saturnyne and Captain UK)
http://img290.imageshack.us/img290/1679/r17po5.th.jpg
http://img290.imageshack.us/img290/8061/r18qc4.th.jpg
Again, what happens on Merlin and Roma's Chess board, happens in Reality.

Roma says, "the terror that threatened the Omni-verse is destroyed"
http://img316.imageshack.us/img316/9749/r19nw6.th.jpg
Roma gives Captain Britain, Captain UK and Saturnyne the credit

Now that Merlin is supposedly dead, Roma becomes the Omni-versal Guardian
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/2638/r20ei9.th.jpg
"My hand guides the Omni-verse Now, Unlike my Father, I have no desire to shape the destiny of men"

continues in the next post...

Mr Master

continues...

Captain Britain acquires the Sword of Might (Excalibur)
http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/4099/r24xw9.th.jpg

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/7177/r21kj5.th.jpg

Roma says, "to wield Excalibur is to Hold the HAND of GOD itself"
http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/7830/r22vp5.th.jpg

Excalibur, One of Two Talismen of Power, the other being the Amulet of Right, TOGETHER, their Power could sunder the Omni-verse
http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/7714/r23op3.th.jpg

newjak86

Is that everything

Mr Master

Recap

Merlin and Roma are playing Chess with the MULTI-VERSE and Merlin ONLY has EXCALIBUR at this point.

Merlin had Multi-verses just hovering around his Realm, with absolute control over ALL of them.

So you see silly, being your "Universal protector" like a Quasar is a whole different story, than being Guardian of the Omni-verse.

When has Quasar manipulated the Universe?

Or in Merlin's case the Multi-verse? With a bunch of Multi-verses at his disposal.

Begone my child.

Mr Master

As for the Power of the Chaos Wave.

I have NEVER said Wanda is the most powerful being in Marvel, or even the Second or the Third,

Infact I have her in 9th place on my hierarchy.

But a depiction was given On Panel of just HOW powerful the Wave is.

Besides it being able to collapse the Omni-verse.

When Meggan harnessed the Power of the BEYOND (True Beyonders) to attempt to stop the Wave, she was overwhelmed in seconds.

"Only She can claim the Pan-Dimensional Power of the Beyond for her own"
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/4538/m4fy1.th.jpg
"Knows that by her side, ALL things are possible"

"Until He sees what she's up against"
http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/2103/m5kk1.th.jpg

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/9048/m6xc4.th.jpg
Meggan (with the Power of the Beyonders) manages to Hold the Chaos Wave for a short while.

The Omni-verse itself Repaired the damage the Wave had caused once the Wave was sealed behind the breach.
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/8757/m8rd4.th.jpg
"the Cosmos is Healing itself before our very eyes"

Even with the Power of the BEYOND, Meggan didn't last.
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/681/m9tu1.th.jpg

Now I don't know if you know this but, a TINY BIT of Power from the BEYOND is enough to collapse a Multi-verse, as POST Molecule Man nearly did.

"Minute bits of of their Energy" from the Beyonders, created Post-retcon Molecule Man & Post-retcon Beyonder.
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/5996/shistory5wo5.th.jpg

"to rend the Life Force of such a being as the Beyonder"
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/1825/beyonderandmmbattleagain3mu7.th.jpg
"Havoc unthinkable would be wrecked across Multiversal Cosmography"

Kubik BEGS for the life of the Beyonder and the Multi-verse
http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/7615/kubikexplains2jz4.th.jpg

newjak86

Originally posted by Mr Master
Recap

Merlin and Roma are playing Chess with the MULTI-VERSE and Merlin ONLY has EXCALIBUR at this point.

Merlin had Multi-verses just hovering around his Realm, with absolute control over ALL of them.

So you see silly, being your "Universal protector" like a Quasar is a whole different story, than being Guardian of the Omni-verse.

When has Quasar manipulated the Universe?

Or in Merlin's case the Multi-verse? With a bunch of Multi-verses at his disposal.

Begone my child. So the answer is yes

well thats impressive but then again not enough for me to apologize.

Sorry but as you put it simply like the Phoenix holding the Universe in her hands simple reprsentations aren't enough and apprantly al he did in it was move things around. He never shows any actual control of the realms themselves. In fact in on of your scans does it ever claim they are actual Multiverses Roma once says if we loose here we loose The Multiverse and that is what your using to base the chess boards equating Multiverses but it is never stated and in fact these events seem to takeplace mostly in one singular Universe.

Despite the fact that pretty much ruins everything you stated right there I'll address some other things.

First you claim that someone with both items can completely recreate and control the Omniverse yet the best thing said is it can sunder the Omniverse pretty good but still vague.

GS said that the Phoenix has the power to recreate everything based on a saying that the Phoenix the the begining and end of all things.

Of course this continues throughout your post as simple hyperbole stuff. To weild the sword is to weild the hand of God but what exactly on panel wise has the this done have they created and destroyed Multiverses or even Universes on a whim I didn't think so.

As to Merlin's control over these events. even that seems rather limited for the most part. He doesn't seem to have total control over everything. In fact his control seems limited to simply moving people around. In fact when he blocks the Furry's attacks his hand gets burned which doesn't imply vast control because if he was at the level you suggest he would have simply willed the attack to stop if he wanted.

Basically he did minor things and to be honest Phoenix's future alterantion is a better feat in my opinion.

Basically both were looking through representations of events Jean the Universe Merlin Universe/possible Multiverse(Once again it never actually suggests it is in your scans maybe you forgot to put that one in)

And if you claim Phoenix is Univesal because of that then Merlin must also be Universal or just Multiversal not Omniversal.

So what was that about child begone

Perhaps it should say Mr. M be exoricsed of GS
because once again your making loose connections and using sayins and phrases much like GS did with the Phoenix without actual concrete feats to base the Omniversal power gauge on this. wink

Mr Master

Scarlet Witch never was depicted having control of the Wave, but it most certainly came from her.

Roma says, "a trans-temporal Tsunami. ORIGINATING from Earth 616"

Wanda's magic is Chaos Magic .... uhh Chaos Wave, sounds familiar.

newjak86

Originally posted by Mr Master
As for the Power of the Chaos Wave.

I have NEVER said Wanda is the most powerful being in Marvel, or even the Second or the Third,

Infact I have her in 9th place on my hierarchy.

But a depiction was given On Panel of just HOW powerful the Wave is.

Besides it being able to collapse the Omni-verse.

When Meggan harnessed the Power of the BEYOND (True Beyonders) to attempt to stop the Wave, she was overwhelmed in seconds.

"Only She can claim the Pan-Dimensional Power of the Beyond for her own"
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/4538/m4fy1.th.jpg
"Knows that by her side, ALL things are possible"

"Until He sees what she's up against"
http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/2103/m5kk1.th.jpg

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/9048/m6xc4.th.jpg
Meggan (with the Power of the Beyonders) manages to Hold the Chaos Wave for a short while.

The Omni-verse itself Repaired the damage the Wave had caused once the Wave was sealed behind the breach.
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/8757/m8rd4.th.jpg
"the Cosmos is Healing itself before our very eyes"

Even with the Power of the BEYOND, Meggan didn't last.
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/681/m9tu1.th.jpg

Now I don't know if you know this but, a TINY BIT of Power from the BEYOND is enough to collapse a Multi-verse, as POST Molecule Man nearly did.

"Minute bits of of their Energy" from the Beyonders, created Post-retcon Molecule Man & Post-retcon Beyonder.
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/5996/shistory5wo5.th.jpg

"to rend the Life Force of such a being as the Beyonder"
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/1825/beyonderandmmbattleagain3mu7.th.jpg
"Havoc unthinkable would be wrecked across Multiversal Cosmography"

Kubik BEGS for the life of the Beyonder and the Multi-verse
http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/7615/kubikexplains2jz4.th.jpg Your doing it again because it only says Cosmos and nothing about Omniverse.

Next Kubik never says that this power is strong enough to actually uttlery destroy a Multiverse he claims it is enough to wreak havoc across a Multiversal Cosmology there is a big difference there.

To imply wreaking havoc and utterly destroying is completely different.

Heck Galactus has the potential to wreak havoc across many Universes

Mr Master

Originally posted by newjak86
Sorry but as you put it simply like the Phoenix holding the Universe in her hands simple reprsentations aren't enough and apprantly al he did in it was move things around. He never shows any actual control of the realms themselves. In fact in on of your scans does it ever claim they are actual Multiverses Roma once says if we loose here we loose The Multiverse and that is what your using to base the chess boards equating Multiverses but it is never stated and in fact these events seem to takeplace mostly in one singular Universe.

Gibberish

Originally posted by newjak86
First you claim that someone with both items can completely recreate and control the Omniverse yet the best thing said is it can sunder the Omniverse pretty good but still vague.

"The Sword of Might united with the Amulet of Right, possesses the Power to REMAKE the Cosmos" (Omni-verse)
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/6563/ex1gj1.th.jpg

Originally posted by newjak86
Of course this continues throughout your post as simple hyperbole stuff. Toweild the sword is to weild the hand of God but what exactly on panel wise has the this done have they created and destroyed Multiverses or even Universes on a whim I didn't think so.to Merlin's control over these events. even that seems rather limited for the most part. He doesn't seem to have total control over everything. In fact his control seems limited to simply moving people around. In fact when he blocks the Furry's attacks his hand gets burned which doesn't imply vast control because if he was at the level you suggest he would have simply willed the attack to stop if he wanted
Basically he did minor things and to be honest Phoenix's future alterantion is a better feat in my opinion.
Basically both were looking through representations of events Jean the Universe Merlin Universe/possible Multiverse(Once again it never actually suggests it is in your scans maybe you forgot to put that one in)
And if you claim Phoenix is Univesal because of that then Merlin must also be Universal or just Multiversal not Omniversal.

firefirefireph

Ok, I can see now you've become intransigent and debating with you is pointless.

newjak86

Originally posted by Mr Master
Gibberish

"The Sword of Might united with the Amulet of Right, possesses the Power to REMAKE the Cosmos" (Omni-verse)
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/6563/ex1gj1.th.jpg

firefirefireph

Ok, I can see now you've become intransigent and debating with you is pointless. So the Cosmos now equals the Omniverse you know how many times the word Cosmos has been described when decribing things alot.

Once again though where are the actual feats of effecting the Omniverse you got all over GS not giving enough feats actually doing stuff.

Instead if being a hypocrite actually practice what preach instead of saying and walking to two different beats.

Mr Master

Originally posted by newjak86
Your doing it again because it only says Cosmos and nothing about Omniverse.

Dude, go READ COMICS, Captain Britain ONLY deals with OMNIVERSAL Threats.

I'm doing it again, what are you doing except for spewing your meaningless opinions without any proof.

Originally posted by newjak86
Next Kubik never says that this power is strong enough to actually uttlery destroy a Multiverse he claims it is enough to wreak havoc across a Multiversal Cosmology there is a big difference there.

WRONG!

Molecule Man and beyonder had done that already earlier in the issue

"from the Quantum to the Trans-Multiversal, Reality trembles as the forces unleashed reverberate through out creation"
http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/5499/beyonderandmmbattleagainbp6.th.jpghttp://img90.imageshack.us/img90/999/beyonderandmmbattlesagain2rv5.th.jpg
Realize how ALL Reality is falling apart because of them, (both are POST-Retcon).
A WATCHER even goes blind in another Universe.

"I come to BEG for the SALVATION of my REALITY"
http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/7615/kubikexplains2jz4.th.jpg

You wanna sugar coat it, whatever.

Originally posted by newjak86
To imply wreaking havoc and utterly destroying is completely different.

I said Collapse, but it seems your bent on being ontuse.

Mr Master

Originally posted by newjak86
So the Cosmos now equals the Omniverse you know how many times the word Cosmos has been described when decribing things alot.Once again though where are the actual feats of effecting the Omniverse you got all over GS not giving enough feats actually doing stuff.Instead if being a hypocrite actually practice what preach instead of saying and walking to two different beats.

When it comes to Captain Britain, yea my child, it means the OMNI-VERSE.

EVIDENCE has been pumped in your face and your in denial, because you feel stupid.

You were talking mad shit and now your smelling it, and it hurts.

So continue to go in circles, you've said nothing of consequence except to vainly attempt to knock the ON PANEL PROOF.

newjak86

Originally posted by Mr Master
Dude, go READ COMICS, Captain Britain ONLY deals with OMNIVERSAL Threats.

I'm doing it again, what are you doing except for spewing your meaningless opinions without any proof.

WRONG!

Molecule Man and beyonder had done that already earlier in the issue

"from the Quantum to the Trans-Multiversal, Reality trembles as the forces unleashed reverberate through out creation"
http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/5499/beyonderandmmbattleagainbp6.th.jpghttp://img90.imageshack.us/img90/999/beyonderandmmbattlesagain2rv5.th.jpg
Realize how ALL Reality is falling apart because of them, (both are POST-Retcon).
A WATCHER even goes blind in another Universe.

"I come to BEG for the SALVATION of my REALITY"
http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/7615/kubikexplains2jz4.th.jpg

You wanna sugar coat it, whatever.

I said Collapse, but it seems your bent on being ontuse. Finally a scan thats actually worth something.

Not your whole captain Britain thing but the Beyonder one you see how hard is it to actually give on panel feats showing these things but once again Odin has sent shockwaves throughout the Multiverse but this one is really impressive perhaps your others can finally get up to par.

newjak86

Originally posted by Mr Master
When it comes to Captain Britain, yea my child, it means the OMNI-VERSE.

EVIDENCE has been pumped in your face and your in denial, because you feel stupid.

You were talking mad shit and now your smelling it, and it hurts.

So continue to go in circles, you've said nothing of consequence except to vainly attempt to knock the ON PANEL PROOF. So Captain Britain means Omniverse right so now everytime I read a feat of his I've got to assume Omniverse got ya.

I'll remember that the next time I see him running around with Juggernaut and the rest of New Exacilbur taking on Dark X-Men roll eyes (sarcastic)

Mr Master

Originally posted by newjak86
Finally a scan thats actually worth something.

Not your whole captain Britain thing but the Beyonder one you see how hard is it to actually give on panel feats showing these things but once again Odin has sent shockwaves throughout the Multiverse but this one is really impressive perhaps your others can finally get up to par.

Whatever, I'm not taking you too seriously right now, I believe you have an agenda.

The Merlin scans are dealing with the 616 Multi-verse as his Chess Board, it was mentioned several times AND it was ARTISTICALLY depicted.

The bottomline is you know nothing about the Captain Britain series, and apparently Marvel has given them jurisdiction over the OMNI-VERSE.

Again from Captain Britain issues.

The Omniversal Tribune can Erase any Universe they want.

"Destroy an ENTIRE Universe, are you people insane"?
http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/9969/e5na4.th.jpg
http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/2561/e6qo5.th.jpg

"an ENTIRE Universe OBLITERATED in an Instant"
http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/9369/e7fg1.th.jpg

"In ALL the OMNI-VERSE there is NOT ONE Universe that I cannot DESTROY at the Touch of a Switch"
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/3205/e8tr6.th.jpg

Mr Master

Originally posted by newjak86
I'll remember that the next time I see him running around with Juggernaut and the rest of New Exacilbur taking on Dark X-Men

Stick to this dude, making jokes, it applies to you since your a joke to me right now.

manorastroman

Ext@nt

I know what you think. You think Phoenix can beat anything in the Marvel U. There's a name for that, delusional.

Wanda's power can effect Eternity who is more powerful then your pet bird there.

"No more Phoenix" she whispers and ends this debate.

manorastroman

Originally posted by manorastroman
and don't conceit to tell me what i "ethier" think.

Originally posted by Ext@nt
I know what you think. You think Phoenix can beat anything in the Marvel U.
you have again proven that you can't read. and what the hell do you mean by "your bird"? not that i would expect anything more, but i've told you before at least twice that i don't particularly care for phoenix, or jean grey for that matter.

Ext@nt

So are you saying Wanda would win then?

I'm tired of people claiming they aren't Phoenix Fanboys yet ignoring anything that proves the bird wouldn't win.

There is no way Phoenix can win here. Wanda's on panel feats exceed anything the bird has ever come close to doing.

manorastroman

i'm saying that i agree with leo and newjak. it's impossible to tell. wanda has shown great power, but almost no control. i can see victories for both.

i'm tired of you and your antics, and i'm not alone. do the wise thing and show some humility.

Ext@nt

So in other words your trying to straddle the fence to avoid being called a fanboy.

Wanda created the HOM universe accroding to her fathers and everyones wishes. That demonstrates control.

I am tired of you and the Phoenix Fanboys.

You people need to realize Wanda could anihillate the bird with a stray thought.

Stop grasping at useless strings here, You know Wanda sweeps this one. Your just pig-headed and refusing to see the truth which is what I find annoying about Fanboys.

manorastroman

grasping at useless strings? what the holy hell are you talking about? if you're talking about what YOU did to defend extant, that comment makes sense. i'm not trying to straddle the fence. i just don't know who would win. and the only person who would call me a fanboy is you.

and learn your comics. wanda did a global alteration (with some control) and the wave was just a side affect of that.

that's it, you're officially too far gone. you apparently live in some universe where everynody is on your side. actually, you're a joke. nobody takes you seriously and if you left these forums today it probably wouldn't even register.

Ext@nt

Read over this thread and see how many people agree with me.

Wanda did an omniversal alteration. Wanda can effect eternity, whos power exceeds that of the Phoenix.

And The Chaoswave was not a side effect, it was an extension of her power. Re-read this thread over slowly and carefully, and try real hard to see the good and valid points people like Mr M have brought up.

manorastroman

i HAVE read over this thread. i can actually read, you see. it's a wonderful talent.

the wave was an extension that she had no control over, which classifies it as a side effect.

people don't agree with YOU, they agree that wanda would win. learn the difference.

Ext@nt

Good now all you have to master is absorbing what's written and understanding it. I understand this is a slow process for you, but we will be patient with you, don't worry.

For anyone who has a logcial mind, Wanda FTW 10/10

leonidas

Originally posted by Ext@nt
Read over this thread and see how many people agree with me.

Wanda did an omniversal alteration. Wanda can effect eternity, whos power exceeds that of the Phoenix.

And The Chaoswave was not a side effect, it was an extension of her power. Re-read this thread over slowly and carefully, and try real hard to see the good and valid points people like Mr M have brought up.

stop being a sycophant and learn to defend your own stance with something more than: 'i'm tired of you fanboys!'

your position has been officially challenged. you have REPEATEDLY failed to bring about proof that would allow you to claim anything remotely resembling a 'victory' in this debate. even your apparent mentor, masters, has stated on pg 6 of this thread that wanda NEVER demonstrated control over the wave.

i never once contended that the wave actually originated from her, only that she showed no ability to control it or its power -- WHICH SHE DID NOT. i also said that PERHAPS she could take out phoenix, but even YOU said she could do it with a 'stray thought'. it comes down to who could 'think' faster, and of course you never explained why i or anyone else should believe that a 'stray thought' of some human would be executed more quickly than the thought of an entity that is far BEYOND human. but you never explained or proved anything else, so by this point i am most certainly NOT surprised. having seen you around a little, i'd expected a debate.

this wasn't a debate. you have been massacred.

phoenix wins NOT because i 'like' her or am i a fan of hers, but because a conceptual entity by all reason and logic should be able to attack quicker than a crazy human mutant. bottom line.

you have failed over and again to address points and queries made directly to you, you have brought nothing to this thread that any sychophant can't bring to any thread, you have been insulting and you have repeatedly pointed out what OTHERS have said and done NONE of the work yourself. you have screamed fanboy but done nothing to address valid points that have been raised and brought to your attention except to yell and scream even louder. above all, even the guy you repeatedly call upon has said she showed no control over the wave.

all in all, very nice job in this debate, bro. ask not for whom the bells tolls, mon ami, because you lose.

resoundingly.

manorastroman

Originally posted by leonidas
stop being a sycophant and learn to defend your own stance with something more than: 'i'm tired of you fanboys!'

your position has been officially challenged. you have REPEATEDLY failed to bring about proof that would allow you to claim anything remotely resembling a 'victory' in this debate. even your apparent mentor, masters, has stated on pg 6 of this thread that wanda NEVER demonstrated control over the wave.

i never once contended that the wave actually originated from her, only that she showed no ability to control it or its power -- WHICH SHE DID NOT. i also said that PERHAPS she could take out phoenix, but even YOU said she could do it with a 'stray thought'. it comes down to who could 'think' faster, and of course you never explained why i or anyone else should believe that a 'stray thought' of some human would be executed more quickly than the thought of an entity that is far BEYOND human. but you never explained or proved anything else, so by this point i am most certainly NOT surprised. having seen you around a little, i'd expected a debate.

this wasn't a debate. you have been massacred.

phoenix wins NOT because i 'like' her or am i a fan of hers, but because a conceptual entity by all reason and logic should be able to attack quicker than a crazy human mutant. bottom line.

you have failed over and again to address points and queries made directly to you, you have brought nothing to this thread that any sychophant can't bring to any thread, you have been insulting and you have repeatedly pointed out what OTHERS have said and done NONE of the work yourself. you have screamed fanboy but done nothing to address valid points that have been raised and brought to your attention except to yell and scream even louder. above all, even the guy you repeatedly call upon has said she showed no control over the wave.

all in all, very nice job in this debate, bro. ask not for whom the bells tolls, mon ami, because you lose.

resoundingly.

cry it's so beautiful it just might get through...

love

Ext@nt

And with all that nonsense you ignore simple facts.

Wanda's power exceeds and over powers what the Phoenix has EVER been able to do.

And the reason I dont need to show scan's is because good people like Mr M have done that so if you want the scans or proof simply re-read over the thread.

You ask people to contanstly provide the same info over and over again so you can try to wear them out and so they will abondon the debate, as you hopefully realize such is not the case with me.

Wanda has omniversal power and can wipe the Phoenix Force out with a thought.

Even if Phoenix hurt her it would have the same effect as when Hawkeye tried to kill her, she just makes it so it didn't happen. The Omniverse is her plaything.

Wanda wipes Phoenix out.

ExodusCloak

Originally posted by leonidas
stop being a sycophant and learn to defend your own stance with something more than: 'i'm tired of you fanboys!'

your position has been officially challenged. you have REPEATEDLY failed to bring about proof that would allow you to claim anything remotely resembling a 'victory' in this debate. even your apparent mentor, masters, has stated on pg 6 of this thread that wanda NEVER demonstrated control over the wave.

i never once contended that the wave actually originated from her, only that she showed no ability to control it or its power -- WHICH SHE DID NOT. i also said that PERHAPS she could take out phoenix, but even YOU said she could do it with a 'stray thought'. it comes down to who could 'think' faster, and of course you never explained why i or anyone else should believe that a 'stray thought' of some human would be executed more quickly than the thought of an entity that is far BEYOND human. but you never explained or proved anything else, so by this point i am most certainly NOT surprised. having seen you around a little, i'd expected a debate.

this wasn't a debate. you have been massacred.

phoenix wins NOT because i 'like' her or am i a fan of hers, but because a conceptual entity by all reason and logic should be able to attack quicker than a crazy human mutant. bottom line.

you have failed over and again to address points and queries made directly to you, you have brought nothing to this thread that any sychophant can't bring to any thread, you have been insulting and you have repeatedly pointed out what OTHERS have said and done NONE of the work yourself. you have screamed fanboy but done nothing to address valid points that have been raised and brought to your attention except to yell and scream even louder. above all, even the guy you repeatedly call upon has said she showed no control over the wave.

all in all, very nice job in this debate, bro. ask not for whom the bells tolls, mon ami, because you lose.

resoundingly.

Nicely put...but does a Phoenix Avatar really have God-like reflexes? The conceptual entity itself(The consiousness who speaks to Jean) whose power is present in all avatars across the multiverse...yes...but an avatar? I know Jeans mutation is the Phoenix and all...and the force is her mutation...as per retcon...but does that mean she(The Avatar) has God-like reflexes, when she the Avatar hasn't demonstrated any trace of this particular power?

Ext@nt

Wanda could wipe out the multiverese and the Phoenix itself instantainiously.

And there's no evidence Wanda can be killed at all.

yer

I say either of them could win, it all depends on who is more prepared.
It can be assumed that Wanda could blink phoenix out of existance or make her Jean no longer a mutant with a connection to it. However, If Jean wanted to, she could go to the WHR and do that whole altering a future timeline thing she did in Here Comes Tomorrow, except this time instead of making Scott move on from her death, she goes back furthur and makes Magneto think hes gay before Wanda is concieved, saving a whole lot of depowered mutants a whole lot of suffering

Ext@nt

If Wanda's power goes to far she could wipe out the enitre Omniverse,

And accroding to people on this forum, reality altering equals time altering so that nerfs your theory abit.

The WHR is to Marvel, what Vanishing Point is to DC. But if all of time and space EVERYWHERE is wiped out you have to stay in the WHR.

Okay as a side bar, Why the hell do they call it "The White Hot Room"? It sounds like a cross between a lunatic asylum and a strip bar.

leonidas

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Nicely put...but does a Phoenix Avatar really have God-like reflexes? The conceptual entity itself(The consiousness who speaks to Jean) whose power is present in all avatars across the multiverse...yes...but an avatar? I know Jeans mutation is the Phoenix and all...and the force is her mutation...as per retcon...but does that mean she(The Avatar) has God-like reflexes, when she the Avatar hasn't demonstrated any trace of this particular power?

it's a fair question, ec, but when acting in her role as the white phoenix, is it not fair to say jean becomes . . . elevated in status? i'd thought the lines between jean and phoenix (in this incarnation in particular) blurred to say the least.

that said, you may well be correct in assuming that jean's reactions wouldn't be elevated (though in lesser forms she has transcended light speed which should say more than enough about her ability to react and process thought at speeds that exceed a 'regular' human's) but even assuming their reactions ARE the same, it comes down to a dice roll as i initially said, as opposed to this being anything LIKE a straight and easy win for wanda.

and extant, did you just compare the white crown phoenix with . . . hawkeye . . .? sad

Ext@nt

It IS a definate win for Wanda. If Phoenix does anythign to her she just reverses it from happening and wipes out the phoenix this all occurs in less then a second.

And can someone awsner my question at the top of the page?

leonidas

. . . sigh . . . sad

and no, i don't know if anyone can . . .

yer

i have no idea why they call it the white hot room. it makes it sound very uncomfortable to be in.

Mr Master

Actually since my name's been mentioned here and there, I might as well give my opinion on the fight.

Wanda wins.

Why?

1. Because Wanda can survive Universal explosions at ground zero with zero damage.
So that gets the "Reflex" issue out the way.

Ground Zero:

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/9313/w10sq9.th.jpg

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/2359/w11xt8.th.jpg
Wanda explodes the Universe in her face

http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/8791/wyz7.th.jpg

Boom boom bang, where's Wanda after this?

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/3577/wkd2.th.jpg
In some village shopping

I've NEVER seen Jean as DP or as WPOTC even taking a Universal explosion let alone surviving it.

2. Because Wanda is immortal and Jean is definitely NOT.

Hawkeye drove an arrow straight into Wanda's heart
http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/1153/w7sc2.th.jpg
Notice the arrows Position, right on the side of the Heart,

Hawkeye came to KILL, READ the scan.

ONE Panel later, Everything is as was.
http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/6858/w6dw8.th.jpg
"If I couldn't KILL you"......

As for Phoenix, Kill the Avatar, you win the fight.

WHY?

Because the Phoenix Force is UNAWARE of it's one Existence in it's Natural State (without Avatar)

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/9239/f1ov3.th.jpg

IN FACT

The Phoenix Force has NO CONSCIOUSNESS in it's Natural State

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/5633/f3pe8.th.jpg

So WPOTC CAN'T Hurt Wanda physically, because Wanda can take a Universe blowing up in her face, and Jean has NEVER been depicted On Panel as being able to output Power that can destroy a Universe.

Lastly, since Jean can't affect Wanda physically, in Power generation Wanda is greater too.

3. Because Wanda can destroy and Re-create Eternity (REALITY 616) on a passing Whim.

"She's starting to REMAKE Reality 616... again"
http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/4126/wanad2jy7.th.jpg

"Who knows how she'll change Everything this time"
http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/355/wanda4iu5.th.jpg

Yes, EVERYTHING in the 616 REALITY (ETERNITY)

And we ALL know Jean has NEVER destroyed, remade or created a Universe On Panel.

Wanda 10/10

Ext@nt

It sounds erotic to be in. It sounds like a Porno club for the KKK.

manorastroman

universal explosions of her own design. might be a little different if phoenix was holding the gun. moreover, wanda's power doesn't really translate into battle prowess.

just saying, i'm still unsure.

lando005

Originally posted by Ext@nt
Wanda could wipe out the multiverese and the Phoenix itself instantainiously.

And there's no evidence Wanda can be killed at all.
you know i never seen anyone worse than a wolverine fanboy untill now you all you do is rant and rant over and over and over again people ask you to provide proof of your claims not rely on the work of others and what do you do? you try and take credit for other peoples work, so far all you have done is simply hate on phoenix and call anyone who questions wanda's power or think phoenix has a chance a fanboy..... the only fanboy present in this thread is you.....no sorry i take that back you go beyond a fanboy you have such blind hatred for phoenix i dont think it matters who she goes up against you say she looses, and appernatly to you wanda (a mutant) is GOD with the power to do anything to anyone and who cant die without any thing to show for it either, you say you dont need to repeat the work of others.... the question has been brought up on how a mear mutant could generate that level of power and up to this point nobody has answered that question, there ya go that's a topic nobody's touched yet so your not repeating anything why dont you start by answering that and then maybe people would stop thinking of you as a ranting idiot, till then go off somewhere with a picture of wanda and go build a shrine or something go have a wet dream about her i dont care just stay out of this thread