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Who wins?

I would say Sidious, just because he was able to use force speed in an epic fight with Bane. However Bane was shown to use some force speed ability against I forgot who...

Against Fohargh, the Makurth, I think. He was moving faster than the eyes can see.

That's quite impressive sure, but Sidious moving that fast against Luke is a little more impressive, as Fohargh was nothing more than an apprentice..

My mistake, it was against Sirak. However their duel was described as pretty long, and Bane must have been getting pretty tired, so still pretty impressive. Plus, he increased in power by a hell of a lot afterwards.

DE Sidious. Apparently he refined himself from ROTS, so I would believe he still had his lightsaber skills from ROTS.

i would say sidious. Bane isn't completely covered with orbalisks so palps could strike the unprotected areas. Also, they aren't entirely impervious to lightsaber attack, so as fast as Sidious is if he kept tagging the same spots he would break through and kill Bane.

Does Bane have Orbalisks on his arms? Anyways, Bane probably takes this due to the fact that Orbalisks are very lightsaber resistent and cause they pump adrenaline into Bane he will never tire. And it would take a strong blow to cut through one of the Orbalisks, Ataru is light blows, and a light blow isn't going to cut through them.

Sidious has extensive training in all the forms...

Source?

I don't know about all the forums, but he seems to take elements from most of them. He taught Maul to be a master of Juyo, so he knows it. He knows something close to Ataru - and perhaps Makashi.

Asajj Ventress may have been an Ataru practitioner based on her acrobatic performance in the arena on Rattatak in the first season of the Clone Wars cartoon series.

In Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords, the Jedi Exile can learn Ataru from Master Vrook.

Known practitioners: Yoda (Yoda mastered all the forms), Qui-Gon Jinn, Darth Sidious (Palpatine trained in all of the forms), Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker, Darth Revan, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura

wiki - lightsaber forms

wiki doesn't count unless you can get wiki's source for that.

thats so much bullshit, just cause someone doesn't agree with something, they say, "oh thats not a source!" Ok tell you what, since NOTHING contradicts it, why don't you provide a source saying that he didn't train in all forms? Its no different than ANY EU book, the people at Wiki don't sit there like, "hmm, lets see what we can make up today, hahahaa..." No they don't do that. So until something proves otherwise that he didn't, then he DID. no contradiction=canon.

The general consensus is that wikipedia isn't a canon source, as anybody can add shit to it. On the other hand if there's a source and nothing directly contradicts that source, then it is technically canon.

well there's all your refferences...

lightsaber battle? hmm, doesnt the orbalisk protect bane from lightsabers? even his head is covered as shown to us in the negtc and legacy issus 5.

idk, there are some parts exposed and i dont even know what style bane uses, i assume sidious still uses ataru by the way he jumps and does those acrobatic moves on luke in DE

I definitely see know evidence to suggest that Sidious would be able to take Bane in a saber battle, I'm gonna have to give this to Bane.

Originally posted by Escape81
I don't know about all the forums, but he seems to take elements from most of them. He taught Maul to be a master of Juyo, so he knows it. He knows something close to Ataru - and perhaps Makashi.

Why would Maul knowing Juyo mean Sidious has to know that? It's very possible that Maul learned it from a holocron or some other teaching method. That's like saying that Obi-wan must also know form five because Anakin knows it.

sidious lightsaber form is ataru, he switches forms to suit combat situations, Even by DE i assume he still uses ataru by the way he fights, it suits "acrobatic" maneuvers

He still knows some of all 7 forms

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
He still knows some of all 7 forms

Source?

wiki with references noted. If you believe it to be non canon, then its up to you to disprove it. As that statement and claim contradicts nothing, its not up to us to prove he knows them all. We have a source, the doubters don't.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
wiki with references noted. If you believe it to be non canon, then its up to you to disprove it. As that statement and claim contradicts nothing, its not up to us to prove he knows them all. We have a source, the doubters don't.

Excuse me, but you clearly don't understand debate. It is not up to me to prove your statement wrong by finding a source which disputes it, you're the one making the claim, it is up to you to provide a source.

excuse me, but you clearly don't understand reading. I have provided a source with references...if you feel it's not valid, then it is up to you to disprove it. If it contradicts nothing else, it can viewed as canonical information.

LMFAO!
Wikipedia isn't a source, you need to actually state the exact source and provide a quote in the very least.

again...reading my friend...at the bottom of the page is a list of all the references to the claims of th page. If you click on the previous pages, you will see that i took the liberty of copying and pasting all the noted refs. on the page. If you still feel that it is incorrect, then feel free to check on all the refs. made. Is it really that hard to believe that the most powerful sith lord ever knows all the forms?

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
again...reading my friend...at the bottom of the page is a list of all the references to the claims of th page. If you click on the previous pages, you will see that i took the liberty of copying and pasting all the noted refs. on the page. If you still feel that it is incorrect, then feel free to check on all the refs. made. Is it really that hard to believe that the most powerful sith lord ever knows all the forms?

I think it is you who needs to work on their reading skills, I said exact source. Provide a quote, and exact source, and you'll have an argument. Until then, you have no case.

actually, you have no case cause you have nothing to contradict it or argue against it except your opinion. So i don't have to prove shit. The references are there for you to go through.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Why would Maul knowing Juyo mean Sidious has to know that? It's very possible that Maul learned it from a holocron or some other teaching method. That's like saying that Obi-wan must also know form five because Anakin knows it.

Please, Glentract.

1) If you expect this theory to hold weight, than I suppose Ragnos doesn't know everything that Sadow or Kressh know, either, correct?

2) There are many lightsaber instructors for the Jedi. There's only Sidious for Maul.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
actually, you have no case cause you have nothing to contradict it or argue against it except your opinion.

Bullshit, you're the one making the claim, it is up to you to prove it, don't ask me to prove a negative



Don't be silly Subject, it's up to you to provide proof for your claims.

Out of polite curiosity, Kas'Im, why make this thread? If Bane has his orbalisks - that means that he could likely beat anyone in a sheer saber match.

Including Sidious.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
actually, you have no case cause you have nothing to contradict it or argue against it except your opinion. So i don't have to prove shit. The references are there for you to go through.

By your craptastical logic, I can use "the internet" and my source for Darth Maul being a reincarnation of Revan. I've got a source, it's up to you to sort through it. See the failure of your ways?

1) If you expect this theory to hold weight, than I suppose Ragnos doesn't know everything that Sadow or Kressh know, either, correct?

Yes, Ragnos doesn't know everything that Sadow knows.

2) There are many lightsaber instructors for the Jedi. There's only Sidious for Maul.

Who says that Maul had to learn it from Sidious? There are things such as holocrons. Guess how Luke learned his form? It wasn't from Obi-wan or Yoda. Guess how Bane got most of his knowledge. From holocrons. If you want to claim that Sidious knows Juyo you're going to need some better evidence.

Originally posted by Escape81
Out of polite curiosity, Kas'Im, why make this thread? If Bane has his orbalisks - that means that he could likely beat anyone in a sheer saber match.

Including Sidious.

According to LS, the Orbalisk's don't cover his wrist, waist, or head. The Orbalisk's do give him a massive advantage in the fact that they remove 95% of Sidious' potential targets, but the are still targets. However, I don't see Sidious being able to take Bane down in pure lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by Escape81
Out of polite curiosity, Kas'Im, why make this thread? If Bane has his orbalisks - that means that he could likely beat anyone in a sheer saber match.

Including Sidious.

It's just that I know there will be people who will argue for both sides, and this seemed like it could be a pretty interesting thread.

I'll rememeber this. And I suggest you do the same, the next time that we debate on Ragnos.



Oh, yes. Because the situations with Bane and Luke are identical to Maul's own.

Obi-Wan and Yoda were both with Luke for extremely short amounts of time, before they both died. Sidious trained Maul from infancy. Now, of course, it is possible for a Sith Holocron to have taught Maul. But, I'd say that if this holocron were in Sidious's possession - and that it is confirmed that Sidious is the most knowledgeable Sith Lord - then he, too, must know Juyo.

Unless of course you don't think that Sidious learned from the holocrons that he had in his possession. Certainly doesn't fit his modus operandi and personality, now does it?

I'll rememeber this. And I suggest you do the same, the next time that we debate on Ragnos.

It doesn't make any difference. Ragnos doesn't have to know everything they know to be leagues ahead of them in power.

Oh, yes. Because the situations with Bane and Luke are identical to Maul's own.

Obi-Wan and Yoda were both with Luke for extremely short amounts of time, before they both died. Sidious trained Maul from infancy. Now, of course, it is possible for a Sith Holocron to have taught Maul. But, I'd say that if this holocron were in Sidious's possession - and that it is confirmed that Sidious is the most knowledgeable Sith Lord - then he, too, must know Juyo.

Unless of course you don't think that Sidious learned from the holocrons that he had in his possession. Certainly doesn't fit his modus operandi and personality, now does it?

When was Sidious said to be the most knowledgeable Sith Lord in reguards to lightsaber combat? Sidious was still learning a lot of things after Darth Maul died, he wasn't the most knowledgeable at that time necessarily. And why would Sidious use Juyo? It doesn't fit his body type or fighting style at all. Sidious didn't know everything on the holocrons in his posession.

Kas'I'm, i believe it's mentioned in Star Wars Insider #62. Good enough for now? I'm sure someone has it laying around in their room. I don't otherwise I'd most definitely check and post a quote.

Oh, it does make a difference. By admitting that Ragnos doesn't know everything that his inferior (Sadow) does, you can't say that powers that Sadow possesses belongs to Ragnos. So the old excuse of: "Sadow could make stars go supernova - so Ragnos obviously has to be the PWNZOrs!" no longer applies, because Ragnos hasn't been proven to possess that power, that expertise with Sith Alchemy or technology.



Sidious = most Sith knowledge, period. Since Sith knowledge can mean Force powers and saber knowledge, it is "logical" to deduce that Palpatine possessed considerable knowledge of Jedi/Sith fighting forms.

I'm not impressed with your argument, Glentract. You said that Maul learned his fighting form from a holocron. That would mean that the holocron belonged to Sidious. Considering what we know about Sidious - and his thirst for knowledge - it's rather inept of you to try to say that he didn't know it as well.

Sith knowledge is generally just knowledge of the dark side of the force, not knowledge of saber forms.

but to have knowledge in lightsaber forms is still to have knowledge. Like i posted before, I believe its noted in SWInsider #62. And also, why is it so absurd to assume that Sidious knows them all? If Yoda has mastered tham all and Sidious beat him, he would have to know how to counter and adapt to the fighting situation. I don't see why people are so against Sidious knowing all the forms....bane fanboys perhaps? no I'm kidding.

Originally posted by Kas'Im
Sith knowledge is generally just knowledge of the dark side of the force, not knowledge of saber forms.

Did you read my argument and his?

He said that Maul likely learned Juyo from a holocron. I said, in that case, it had to have been Sidious's holocron. And it would be sheer stupidity to assume that Sidious didn't view and learn from all of the holocrons he possessed.

Meaning he knew Juyo as well.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
but to have knowledge in lightsaber forms is still to have knowledge. Like i posted before, I believe its noted in SWInsider #62. And also, why is it so absurd to assume that Sidious knows them all? If Yoda has mastered tham all and Sidious beat him, he would have to know how to counter and adapt to the fighting situation. I don't see why people are so against Sidious knowing all the forms....bane fanboys perhaps? no I'm kidding.

Sidious didn't beat him though..Sidious KNEW he couldn't beat him so he got the higher ground.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Sidious didn't beat him though..Sidious KNEW he couldn't beat him so he got the higher ground.

Oh, Jesus. Not this again...

Sidious didn't beat or own Yoda. Yoda didn't beat or own Sidious. If you disagree (anyone), you're an idiot.

Originally posted by Escape81
Did you read my argument and his?

He said that Maul likely learned Juyo from a holocron. I said, in that case, it had to have been Sidious's holocron. And it would be sheer stupidity to assume that Sidious didn't view and learn from all of the holocrons he possessed.

Meaning he knew Juyo as well.

I don't dispute this, I was just saying that sith teachings/knowledge are generally considered teachings/knowledge of the dark side of force, and that's it, not saber knowledge. I was just addressing this single sentence (Since Sith knowledge can mean Force powers and saber knowledge, it is "logical" to deduce that Palpatine possessed considerable knowledge of Jedi/Sith fighting forms.), I agree with everything else.

I've already said that Sidious "won" because he had a bar "appear" from one seen to the next for him to grab on to, and not fall like Yoda, so maybe i shouldnt have put beat in there.

Originally posted by Escape81
Oh, Jesus. Not this again...

Sidious didn't beat or own Yoda. Yoda didn't beat or own Sidious. If you disagree (anyone), you're an idiot.

Erm, Sidious beat Yoda, Yoda got blasted off the podium, ended up hurt and bruised, and fled. A clear victory.

Originally posted by Kas'Im
Erm, Sidious beat Yoda, Yoda got blasted off the podium, ended up hurt and bruised, and fled. A clear victory.

Actually they both got blasted off, Yoda weighed less and therefore fell further. George Lucas said it was a stalemate of the most powerful of each respective side of the force.

also the "magic rail" is a big factor too. If yoda had one of those he wouldnt have fallen either.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Actually they both got blasted off, Yoda weighed less and therefore fell further. George Lucas said it was a stalemate of the most powerful of each respective side of the force.

By definition, Sidious won. How it happened doesn't matter, he ended up victorious.

Originally posted by Kas'Im
By definition, Sidious won. How it happened doesn't matter, he ended up victorious.

And what definition is that? He wanted to kill Yoda, he didn't.. Yoda wanted to kill him, he didn't. Yoda lived on and trained Luke, who then destroyed the emperor, so by definition HE won.

But not that particular battle.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
And what definition is that?

Sidious ended up victorious, so by definition he won - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/win - To gain the victory.



You're clearly not on the same wavelength as me, I'm talking about the fight itself, you seem to be talking about their goals.

Originally posted by Kas'Im
Sidious ended up victorious, so by definition he won - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/win - To gain the victory.



You're clearly not on the same wavelength as me, I'm talking about the fight itself, you seem to be talking about their goals.

You're obviously not understand the definition of victory. He didn't beat Yoda. They stalemated... They both fell. At the end of the fight Sidious had the worried look on his face. Where do you derive a victory for Sidious from ANY of this? Not to mention George Lucas said it was a S-T-A-L-E-M-A-T-E.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You're obviously not understand the definition of victory. He didn't beat Yoda. They stalemated... They both fell. At the end of the fight Sidious had the worried look on his face. Where do you derive a victory for Sidious from ANY of this? Not to mention George Lucas said it was a S-T-A-L-E-M-A-T-E.

Yoda was the one who fell down, and ended up bruised and tired, and was forced to flee because he couldn't win - it's a clear victory on Sidious' part.

The fight itself was a stalemate.

However, Sidious's goal, DS, was to live. Yoda's goal was to kill Sidious. He didn't achieve his goal.

Originally posted by Kas'Im
Yoda was the one who fell down, and ended up bruised and tired, and was forced to flee because he couldn't win - it's a clear victory on Sidious' part.

they both fell, he was lighter, he doubled his search for Yoda, it was a stalemate.

I'd be more inclined to say that the force powers battle was a stalemate, but ultimately Sidious won. Yoda said he failed and had to hide, and Sidious ran the galaxy for decades. Yoda failed, hence giving the victory of that battle to Sidious.

Originally posted by Escape81
Oh, it does make a difference. By admitting that Ragnos doesn't know everything that his inferior (Sadow) does, you can't say that powers that Sadow possesses belongs to Ragnos. So the old excuse of: "Sadow could make stars go supernova - so Ragnos obviously has to be the PWNZOrs!" no longer applies, because Ragnos hasn't been proven to possess that power, that expertise with Sith Alchemy or technology.

He doesn't have to have those specific powers to still have Sadow, who could do all of those things cower at the sight of his Force Ghost.

Originally posted by Escape81
Sidious = most Sith knowledge, period. Since Sith knowledge can mean Force powers and saber knowledge, it is "logical" to deduce that Palpatine possessed considerable knowledge of Jedi/Sith fighting forms.

First, where exactly was it stated that he was the most knowledgeable Sith Lord? Second, your evidence does prove that Sidious knew Juyo. If you want to claim that you'd have to prove that Sidious knew everything on his holocrons.

Originally posted by Escape81
I'm not impressed with your argument, Glentract. You said that Maul learned his fighting form from a holocron. That would mean that the holocron belonged to Sidious. Considering what we know about Sidious - and his thirst for knowledge - it's rather inept of you to try to say that he didn't know it as well.

I'm not here to impress you. And it's rather inept of you to claim that Sidious did know everything on his holocron without any proof backing you up. We know that Sidious' forte was NOT lightsaber combat. Force powers were where he was at his peak. Sidious even called lightsaber fighting a "Jedi game". From what I see it's much more likely than not that Sidious didn't know Juyo.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract

Sidious was a practicioner of all 7 forms. He didn't master them but he did used 2-3 against Mace.





Except Sidious was fast enough to carve a figure of Maul around Maul, faster than Maul could see. Except for the fact that Sidious nearly stalemated one of the greatest lightsaber duelists ever, AFTER being inactive for 13 years. You're not making any sense here.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Sidious was a practicioner of all 7 forms. He didn't master them but he did used 2-3 against Mace.

Prove it.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Except Sidious was fast enough to carve a figure of Maul around Maul, faster than Maul could see. Except for the fact that Sidious nearly stalemated one of the greatest lightsaber duelists ever, AFTER being inactive for 13 years. You're not making any sense here.

Sidious stalemated Yoda? Overall, yes, but with the lightsaber, no. Mace, Yoda's inferior, defeated Sidious in lightsaber combat. If Sidious had used offensive Force attacks on him he would have dominated the fight, but they went lightsaber against lightsaber and he went down. If you want to claim that Sidious knows Juyo, prove up.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Prove it.

perhaps you forgot where Sidious attacks head on, and then a few minutes later he starts flipping around like a muppet. That's at least 2-3 forms right there, and that's prove..



Uh yea, Sidious stalemated him overall. They're about equal in force abilities while Yoda is slightly better with a saber..

No, that's not "prove". Because he flips doesn't mean he is using Ataru, because he attacks head-on doesn't mean he uses Djem Su(o?). If it's not stated we don't know...

The bottom line is that you have just said that Ragnos's knowledge does not equate to Sadow's. So, for all you know, Ragnos is completely inept and incompetent in anything related to Sith Alchemy, which Sadow had excelled in.



Read Dark Empire and its sourcebook, or ask Lightsnake for the exact quote. It states, I believe, that he knows all of the known techniques, has rediscovered lost techniques, and invents new ones at his pleasure. That > Ancient Sith.

"Second, your evidence does prove that Sidious knew Juyo."

Glad to hear it. There's no need to argue it.

And, of course, you're right. Sidious isn't a patron of knowledge, he doesn't like to learn techniques about the Force, and of course, wouldn't learn everything that he could and everything in his possession.

Stunning argument, Glentract.



You're not here to impress anyone. Thank God, because you'd do a poor job, I'd imagine.



Don't accuse me of ineptitude, Glentract, when your entire argument stinks of it. We know Sidious's modus operandi, his disposition for Force based knowledge in general. It is inept of you to propose that Sidious wouldn't learn everything from the holocrons he had in his possession.



Wrong. We know that Sidious didn't duel in thirteen years before RotS, and was still able to stalemate Windu in sheer swordsmanship. We have accounts from Darth Maul that make Sidious's skills with a saber astonishing. He didn't likely touch a saber after RotS, because he had no need to. Vader was his lightsaber.

Don't argue things that you don't know, Glentract.



As we've seen, what you see isn't much.

Sidious is the only instructor and teacher that Maul had. Maul knew Juyo. Sidious knew what his holocrons had detailed. Therefore, Sidious knew Juyo.

Originally posted by kamikz
No, that's not "prove". Because he flips doesn't mean he is using Ataru, because he attacks head-on doesn't mean he uses Djem Su(o?). If it's not stated we don't know...


What do you mean that's not p-r-o-o-f? When he's flipping like Yoda, he's incorporating either Aturo or Juyo style into the fight. When he's attacking head on he's incorporating another style. That alone gives him 2-3 styles in one fight.

The bottom line is that you have just said that Ragnos's knowledge does not equate to Sadow's. So, for all you know, Ragnos is completely inept and incompetent in anything related to Sith Alchemy, which Sadow had excelled in.

That's very possible. I don't think that I ever argued that Ragnos was specifically good at alchemy. Big whup. Even if I can't prove that Ragnos knew ANYTHING AT ALL we still know that Sadow cowered in the presence of Ragnos' Force Ghost. When has any other Force Ghost been displayed as powerful, much less capable of having the two strongest Sith Lord crapping in their pants?

Read Dark Empire and its sourcebook, or ask Lightsnake for the exact quote. It states, I believe, that he knows all of the known techniques, has rediscovered lost techniques, and invents new ones at his pleasure. That > Ancient Sith.

You're going to need something a lot more solid then that. First of all, Exar was directly stated to have more knowledge that he could ever possibly use and he was still rather young when he got it. Unless Sidious was already several hundred, if not thousand, years old (which we know that he wasn't) there is no way that he could know everything.

"Second, your evidence does prove that Sidious knew Juyo."

Glad to hear it. There's no need to argue it.

And, of course, you're right. Sidious isn't a patron of knowledge, he doesn't like to learn techniques about the Force, and of course, wouldn't learn everything that he could and everything in his possession.

Guess what. Still no evidence to support Sidious knowing Juyo. He could try to learn everything in his posession, but he simply doesn't have the time to do so. Exar, who knew nowhere close to everything, had more knowledge than he could use.

Don't accuse me of ineptitude, Glentract, when your entire argument stinks of it. We know Sidious's modus operandi, his disposition for Force based knowledge in general. It is inept of you to propose that Sidious wouldn't learn everything from the holocrons he had in his possession.

Guess what. Still no evidence to support Sidious knowing Juyo. He could try to learn everything in his posession, but he simply doesn't have the time to do so. Exar, who knew nowhere close to everything, had more knowledge than he could use.

Wrong. We know that Sidious didn't duel in thirteen years before RotS, and was still able to stalemate Windu in sheer swordsmanship. We have accounts from Darth Maul that make Sidious's skills with a saber astonishing. He didn't likely touch a saber after RotS, because he had no need to. Vader was his lightsaber.

I'd like to see these accounts from Darth Maul that make Sidious' saber skills astonishing.

As you have pointed out, Darth Sidious hadn't touched a lightsaber in the 13 years before ROTS and he probably didn't touch one afterwards (either you're forgetting DE or you aren't including times after his first death). And as we know, Exar had more knowledge than he could use, however, you're claiming that Sidious knew all the techniques. There's no logic there. When would he have had time to learn Juyo?

Look at Odan-Urr. He was over a thousand years old when he died, yet he was STILL studying Jedi teachings at the time of his death.

Sidious is the only instructor and teacher that Maul had. Maul knew Juyo. Sidious knew what his holocrons had detailed. Therefore, Sidious knew Juyo.

Guess what. Still no evidence to support Sidious knowing Juyo. He could try to learn everything in his posession, but he simply doesn't have the time to do so. Exar, who knew nowhere close to everything, had more knowledge than he could use.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
What do you mean that's not p-r-o-o-f? When he's flipping like Yoda, he's incorporating either Aturo or Juyo style into the fight. When he's attacking head on he's incorporating another style. That alone gives him 2-3 styles in one fight.

It's highly possible that he's using Form Six.

Fear is a funny thing, Glentract. Count Dooku was terrified of Palpatine - are you suggesting that the gap of power between them is so significant that Palpatine could wave his hand, and Dooku would fall over, dead?

Especially when we know that Yoda, in AotC (though he dominated the fight), was unable to kill or subdue Count Dooku?



Exar =/= Sidious, Glentract. If anything, intellectually speaking, you can't even put Kun and Sidious on the same level. Or are you going to argue that one, too?

I guess, of course, if that logic applies... Sadow, Kressh, and Ragnos himself don't know jack, either, do they?



Sidious traced Maul's outline with a lightsaber, moving so quickly that Maul later recollected if he had moved an inch, Sidious would have shred him to pieces.

It's in the Darth Maul journals.



Uh, gee, maybe he learned it before he stopped touching the saber.



Let's see...

- Maul knew Juyo? Check.

- Sidious being Maul's only instructor/teacher/mentor? Check.

- Sidious, being an intellectual who strived for knowledge? Check.

- Sidious, the type who plundered various worlds for Force based knowledge? Check.

- Sidious, the type who owned holocrons and would, of course, learn as much as he could from them. Check.

- Sidious is confirmed to know these techniques, so if they came from his holocron, he'd use them. Check.

I learned Algebra, geometry, trig, and calculus in school...i haven't been to school in approx 8 years, i haven't used them in 8 years either....ya know what though....i still know them. And i only studied them for less then a year each...we're talking about the most dominant Sith lord ever training in ways to further is occupation. I'm sure he still knows them even if being out of practice. And what do you think he did in the privacy of his home or office when no one was around? played with himself? I'm sure he was still learning as much as he could.

Played with himself. He's too old to get action.

Well, Palpatine was a lonely man... that may have been all he did... play with his nasty, old self. Rofl. That's why he always had an apprentice... to assist him...



Sorry. That was gross.

Originally posted by Escape81
Well, Palpatine was a lonely man... that may have been all he did... play with his nasty, old self. Rofl. That's why he always had an apprentice... to assist him...



Sorry. That was gross.

You've been to the OTF lately?

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
You've been to the OTF lately?

?

Ya, stupid joke.

Kinda ruined the akwardness there.

Oh ya, Sid team would win.

Fear is a funny thing, Glentract. Count Dooku was terrified of Palpatine - are you suggesting that the gap of power between them is so significant that Palpatine could wave his hand, and Dooku would fall over, dead?

Especially when we know that Yoda, in AotC (though he dominated the fight), was unable to kill or subdue Count Dooku?

What I'm saying is that it is apparent that people's power declines greatly when they become a Force Ghost. Even after having declined greatly when he died, Ragnos' powers were still so great that he left Sadow shaking in his boots. I doubt very strongly that Sidious' Force Ghost would do that to Dooku.

Exar =/= Sidious, Glentract. If anything, intellectually speaking, you can't even put Kun and Sidious on the same level. Or are you going to argue that one, too?

I guess, of course, if that logic applies... Sadow, Kressh, and Ragnos himself don't know jack, either, do they?

What are you trying to argue? My point is that Sidious could not possibly know everything because we know for sure that there is too much for anyone to know. Even Odan, who was over a thousand when he died was still learning and he spent most of his life in the library.

Sidious traced Maul's outline with a lightsaber, moving so quickly that Maul later recollected if he had moved an inch, Sidious would have shred him to pieces.

It's in the Darth Maul journals.

If Sidious was this good, why couldn't he take down Mace or Yoda? How old was Maul at this time?

Uh, gee, maybe he learned it before he stopped touching the saber.

You think that he had the time to do so?

Let's see...

- Maul knew Juyo? Check.

- Sidious being Maul's only instructor/teacher/mentor? Check.

- Sidious, being an intellectual who strived for knowledge? Check.

- Sidious, the type who plundered various worlds for Force based knowledge? Check.

- Sidious, the type who owned holocrons and would, of course, learn as much as he could from them. Check.

- Sidious is confirmed to know these techniques, so if they came from his holocron, he'd use them. Check.

You've got a problem with you theory and that is that Sidious has so much knowledge that he could not possibly have learned all of it. Refer to my examples with Exar and Odan for proof.

It is possible Sidious knew everything, because nobody was as committed to the darkside and teachings of the sith, as Palpatine. He had a thirst for knowledge and judging by everything we know about him, anything he could learn that dealt with the force, he would have. It explains why he's the most powerful.

It is possible Sidious knew everything, because nobody was as committed to the darkside and teachings of the sith, as Palpatine. He had a thirst for knowledge and judging by everything we know about him, anything he could learn that dealt with the force, he would have. It explains why he's the most powerful.

Did you miss the part about Odan? The guy spent 90+% of his life in the library studying the Force and he still didn't know even close to all of what there was to know. The most important part is that Odan was MUCH older than Yoda when he died.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
It is possible Sidious knew everything, because nobody was as committed to the darkside and teachings of the sith, as Palpatine. He had a thirst for knowledge and judging by everything we know about him, anything he could learn that dealt with the force, he would have. It explains why he's the most powerful.

Did you miss the part about Odan? The guy spent 90+% of his life in the library studying the Force and he still didn't know even close to all of what there was to know. The most important part is that Odan was MUCH older than Yoda when he died.

Do you understand the difference between quality and quantity? By now we know Plagueis was a pretty damn good teacher, him and Sidious both had a thirst for knowledge, and Sidious learned everything dealing with the Jedi AND the sith. Odan didn't create his own techniques, and it's quite obvious his knowledge was absolutely nothing compared to the knowledge possessed by Sidious.

i think that sidious knew many forms of fighting, very aggressive, he killed three jedi MASTERS in seconds then engaged windu on one on, and for those of you who say windu won, its still debated that palpatine let him win. It makes good sense, palpatine might have sensed anakin comming and lost the fight so that windu would try to kill him FORCING anakin to kill windu due to his fear of losing pademe. If windu is yoda's inferiour how did an injured palpatine fight him and hold his own so well, i would gess it was a stalemate, since palpatine had to much for lightning even for yoda to just absorb yet yoda was able to cause that explosion that made them both lose. It was clearly a stalemate, Yoda even said that the battle was lost even before it hard started did he not. Dooku and Yoda are the only ones who have ever out fought mace windu in a saber battle, and dooku or tyrannus was his apprentice, if he wanted him dead he should have just killed palpatine and become the lord of the sith, thats how it works, one is the boss the other is the apprentice, the boss representing the power the apprentice wants, when the time comes, the apprentice will kill his master and take his place. vader, and dooku both wanted palpatine dead to take his place, the only one who did not wanna kill palpatine was maul and probably only because he was in sidious care most of his life. Palpatine is not the sith lord cause he is stupid he has considerable power, as well as smarts, if he didnt he would nto have been able to mess with the republic so badly.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Do you understand the difference between quality and quantity? By now we know Plagueis was a pretty damn good teacher, him and Sidious both had a thirst for knowledge, and Sidious learned everything dealing with the Jedi AND the sith. Odan didn't create his own techniques, and it's quite obvious his knowledge was absolutely nothing compared to the knowledge possessed by Sidious.

You mean, minus the fact that Odan had more than ten times longer to learn and more of his life was devoted to the study of the Force? Sidious could not have known everything, or even as much as Odan.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
You mean, minus the fact that Odan had more than ten times longer to learn and more of his life was devoted to the study of the Force? Sidious could not have known everything, or even as much as Odan.

Wow what an argument. And Yoda had 800 more years to learn than Sidious, and was the most powerful jedi up until that time, yet he couldn't defeat him. So moral of the story? Quality>Quantity
Sidious' teachings were the most knowledgable teachings in the SW universe, as shown in Dark Empire. I'd say Plagueis' was better but it's inconclusive. Sidious WAS the dark side and it's pretty obvious he had the most knowledge of it along with the ancients.

there are things that sidious has not learned, The stuff in DESB is already a debate itself

Where was it ever stated that Yoda knew a lot? He just lived a long time. When was he ever shown studying? All Odan ever did was study, even moreso than Sidious. He's got a lot more knowledge, as there is a limit based on time as to how much Sidious could have learned and that limit is set at a much, much higher bar for Odan.

Originally posted by Kadesh
there are things that sidious has not learned, The stuff in DESB is already a debate itself


like?

The fallanasi looping technique,
1.Some groups of force users - like the Falanassi - did hide away from him and he never had access to their ways of using the force.
2. and illustrious did mentione that sidious himself said he couldnt access the jedi holocrons with the teachings, no not the one in DE, the holocrons he said are different

Originally posted by Kadesh
The fallanasi looping technique,
1.Some groups of force users - like the Falanassi - did hide away from him and he never had access to their ways of using the force.
The falanassi were written about long after DE. DE states that up to that point, he knew everything. Of course he didn't know the looping technique that Luke knew, nor the flow walk that Jacen knew.

Lol, Illustrious doesnt know what he's talking about..

well illustrious handed lightsnakes ass in that thread.

And what is the flow walk? Is it like darth vader who used it to walk like it was mentioned in rodv?

Originally posted by Kadesh
well illustrious handed lightsnakes ass in that thread.
If you mean directly argued with canon quotes and text, just because anything>TOTJ=false, then yes. However lightsnake was one of the only ones that brought these quotes to this forum, and you don't see any of those older guys here anymore as a result.



Being able to see the future and alter it, and being able to see the past as well. Jacen learned it from some monks during his 5 year "soul searching".

Unless he manipulated the Force to shove Sadow across the room, or anything of that nature, you have yet to provide any proof that the fear was nothing but residual psychological issues that Sadow had with the living Ragnos, as well as a possible fear of the unknown.



Inconsistencies in Star Wars exist. I hate to tell you this, but it's true. Just because Odan or Kun couldn't learn everything doesn't mean that Sidious couldn't.



Sidious hadn't touched a lightsaber for thirteen years.

You need to read that. Again. And again. And again. Until you understand it.

Furthermore, Sidious = Mace in sheer swordsmanship, despite the fact.



This is before he became Chancellor of the Republic. Hell. He may have learned it from Plagueis.



Refer to the fact that Exar and Odan aren't Sidious.

oo nice did kreia posses flow walking? she predicted the fall of the republic and the death of jango

No, Kreia couldn't alter the future, she could only see it. THATS called foresight.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No, Kreia couldn't alter the future, she could only see it. THATS called foresight.

She seems to be unrivaled in her accuracy, as well.

This is very true

wrong sidious equals yoda or he wouldnt have defeated yoda i tell you its under debate weather palpatine let windu win or not and in my mind its more logical that he did then kill windu forcing anakin to think of him as a monster instead of a guy who could save his wife, that singular act made him an enemy of the jedi there was no going back, and after he was told he killed padame thats it he lost total care for anyone or anything.

No proof suggested that palpatine let windu beat him, he was trying to kill windu and when windu started to dominate the 2nd half of thefight, he was getting frustrated and more desperate to kill mace, and after he dropped his lightsaber, he was moaning and crawling to the corner even before anakin walked in

AS Anakin walked in...and its already been confirmed that he was "faking" being weak and injured to sway Anakin,

yes i never denied that, mider was claiming mace let sidious beat him which is not true

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
AS Anakin walked in...and its already been confirmed that he was "faking" being weak and injured to sway Anakin,

Read what escape said. He started acting when his lightning attempt was failing(although Mace couldn't hold on for much longer). Everything before that was real.

thats what i was getting at....but he fell AS Anakin walked in, not before like they'ree trying to say, implying that Sidious is WAY weaker than Mace. I saw the movie too...

Originally posted by Escape81
Unless he manipulated the Force to shove Sadow across the room, or anything of that nature, you have yet to provide any proof that the fear was nothing but residual psychological issues that Sadow had with the living Ragnos, as well as a possible fear of the unknown.

Force Ghost were not uncommon in Ancient Sith times. Sadow would have logically had dealings with them before. If you want to claim that the fear was psychological, you must PROVE IT.

Originally posted by Escape81
Inconsistencies in Star Wars exist. I hate to tell you this, but it's true. Just because Odan or Kun couldn't learn everything doesn't mean that Sidious couldn't.

You cannot try to formulate knew inconsistencies in your favor, you should know that. By the same logic, I could state that Sidious being called the most powerful Sith ever an inconsistency. As with Yoda being stated to be the strongest Jedi up to that point. See the failure of your logic?

Originally posted by Escape81
Sidious hadn't touched a lightsaber for thirteen years.

You need to read that. Again. And again. And again. Until you understand it.

Furthermore, Sidious = Mace in sheer swordsmanship, despite the fact.

I'll ask you again, how old was Maul at the time?

Let's take a look at another fact. Maul was better than Qui-gon. Qui-gon was stated in one of the novelizations to be comparible to Mace. Mace is equal to or better than Sidious with a lightsaber. It doesn't add up. The most logical explanation is that Maul wasn't very good when he was amazed by Sidious' saber skills.

Originally posted by Escape81
This is before he became Chancellor of the Republic. Hell. He may have learned it from Plagueis.

Did he learn them in a week a piece or what? There wasn't time for him to do so.

Originally posted by Escape81
Refer to the fact that Exar and Odan aren't Sidious.

You can't use potential inconsistencies as an argument. It had no basis.

Mace hadn't mastered Vapaad at that point I belive, that was why he beat Sids. And the fact that they were both equal until his shatterpoint ability came in handy....

Actually it's pretty clear that they were in the complete unknown of force ghosts.

http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/2553/starwarstotjthegoldenagfu5.jpg

Sadow: Marka Ragnos! But you're dead!

It's pretty clear that he was completely surprised that Ragnos was able to come back as a spirit.

Originally posted by kamikz
Mace hadn't mastered Vapaad at that point I belive, that was why he beat Sids. And the fact that they were both equal until his shatterpoint ability came in handy....

I heard from someone that he mastered it when he was like 13 or something.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Force Ghost were not uncommon in Ancient Sith times. Sadow would have logically had dealings with them before. If you want to claim that the fear was psychological, you must PROVE IT.
Wrong. As Adas said, "Ragnos, but youre dead!!"




Except Sidious being the most powerful isn't an inconsistency. It's pretty damn accurate. The same goes for Yoda although I personally think Revan should be up there.




Actually this is indeed an inconsistency, unless ROTS Mace got a lot better. Because that would make Maul better than Mace, and that means Maul is better than Dooku. That would also mean Anakin is better than Mace if he beat Dooku. So that's a bunch of inconsistencies. Oh and btw, "comparable to Mace" doesn't mean they're on par at ALL..

And it's irrelevant how old Maul was although it's clear he was in his 20s, because force speed is force speed.

Glentract, stop it: It's canon Palpatine mastered everything there was to know and canon the Orbalisk armor was flawed.

Palpatine takes this. Oh, and just cause you seem to be dedicated to willfully denying the truth, Glen:

Did Exar or Odan tap into the Force itself in pure, unmitigated terms as Palpatine did to the Dark Side?

Nope? Ok, then.

Source?

Haven't I given to you about three dozen times? Quit being willfully ignorant.

Well you have, but if you're talking about the one I think you're talking about, it's slightly different to what you originally stated.

King Adas, Lightsnake, and Darth Sexy have done my job for me. I'm sort've disappointed.

Wrong. As Adas said, "Ragnos, but youre dead!!"

Perhaps you could interpret it as saying that, but I think that it actually is referring to the fact that Ragnos was no longer in charge because he had died, yet he was still ordering the two strongest Dark Lords around.

Except Sidious being the most powerful isn't an inconsistency. It's pretty damn accurate. The same goes for Yoda although I personally think Revan should be up there.

In the future argue against what I said. Escape had tried playing off the fact that Sidious could not logically know everything as an inconsistency. He has no evidence that it is one. I called Sidious and Yoda being the most powerful inconsistencies to prove the failure in his logic, not to forumlate an actual argument for such.

Actually this is indeed an inconsistency, unless ROTS Mace got a lot better. Because that would make Maul better than Mace, and that means Maul is better than Dooku. That would also mean Anakin is better than Mace if he beat Dooku. So that's a bunch of inconsistencies. Oh and btw, "comparable to Mace" doesn't mean they're on par at ALL..

And it's irrelevant how old Maul was although it's clear he was in his 20s, because force speed is force speed.

If Maul was ten years old, it's not very impressive as ten year olds are easy to impress. See the point?



It's canon Palpatine mastered everything there was to know and canon the Orbalisk armor was flawed.

Prove Palpatine knew everything there was to know.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Wrong. As Adas said, "Ragnos, but youre dead!!"

Perhaps you could interpret it as saying that, but I think that it actually is referring to the fact that Ragnos was no longer in charge because he had died, yet he was still ordering the two strongest Dark Lords around.

Or it could be they'd never seen a ghost before.

Logic, logic.

Afraid the canon contradicts you. So, maybe your logic is wrong, k? K

Strawman



Sure! DE sourcebook: "He had mastered all known, previously unknown and forgotten techniques and invented new ones at his pleasure."

Want the one of the DE Handbook where it calls his power limitless?

every aspect of the force?
Major debate in DESB
1.Fallanasi people were hiding from palpatine and he could have never learned their ways of the force
2. he himself stated he could not acces the holocrons

Clearly hyperbole statements in DESB
i saw palpatines page, it is only said "it is believed he mastered all known techniques"

STOP using it as an arguement

It seems pretty much black-and-white to the rest of us, Glentract. Do you have on-panel evidence that proves that Sadow and Kressh were in contact with Force Ghosts before this confrontation with Ragnos, or are you making an assumption?

Bear in mind: your assumptions are irrelevent.

If they had been in contact with Force Ghosts, and if they feared Ragnos as much as you said, then they would not be a reference to their disgruntlement that Ragnos was trying to give them orders.

No. It appears to be complete surprise.



Oh, please, Glentract. Star Wars is full of inconsistencies. But it is also full of the "what applies to one, does not necessarily apply to another" rule.

Exar Kun =/= Sidious. Unfortunately, I hate to tell you this, but Kun's intellect is far from Sidious's own, and I'd imagine that his comprehension is as well. Dark Empire confirms that Palpatine's knowledge of Dark Side techniques is immense (!).

Given that Sidious is older, smarter, and deeper in the Dark Side than Kun is, it isn't surprising.



One part is Maul being in awe. The other, of course, you elected to neglect - is that Sidious traced Maul's entire form with a lightsaber, and Maul recollected that if he moved - he would have died.



Dark Empire.

Originally posted by Kadesh
every aspect of the force?
Major debate in DESB
1.Fallanasi people were hiding from palpatine and he could have never learned their ways of the force
2. he himself stated he could not acces the holocrons

Clearly hyperbole statements in DESB
i saw palpatines page, it is only said "it is believed he mastered all known techniques"

STOP using it as an arguement

escape81. please read this, And by the way, that damm quote which said palpatine mastered aspects from the force is from palpatines Stat page. Read the above quote

Originally posted by Kadesh
escape81. please read this, And by the way, that damm quote which said palpatine mastered aspects from the force is from palpatines Stat page. Read the above quote

It is from Dark Empire. You can go to swtimeline.ru and look at it yourself.

1. You never know. The Jedi were hiding from Palpatine, as well. Didn't stop him from gaining knowledge of their techniques. The Sith were also hiding from the Jedi in the PT, for a thousand years. Didn't stop Yoda from gaining Dark Side knowledge enough to handle Count Dooku's Force lightning. It is possible that Palpatine captured one of them. Face it, the man was the supreme ruler of the most powerful military force in the history of the galaxy.

2. The Jedi holocrons. Nothing about Sith holocrons.

So, clearly, it isn't hyperbole. It is a well thought out and complex sentence, and would not have been made if it were a hyperbole, and Sidious carried average knowledge of the Dark Side. Given his zealotry and fanaticism related to the Dark Side, his life's dedication to uncovering it's secrets, and that he commands the greatest resources and most powerful regime ever - I see no reason why it is a hyperbole and why it isn't possible.

So, no, I will continue to use it.

Sidious wins. Why? Just read whatever Escape writes.

Originally posted by Escape81
It is from Dark Empire. You can go to swtimeline.ru and look at it yourself.

1. You never know. The Jedi were hiding from Palpatine, as well. Didn't stop him from gaining knowledge of their techniques. The Sith were also hiding from the Jedi in the PT, for a thousand years. Didn't stop Yoda from gaining Dark Side knowledge enough to handle Count Dooku's Force lightning. It is possible that Palpatine captured one of them. Face it, the man was the supreme ruler of the most powerful military force in the history of the galaxy.

2. The Jedi holocrons. Nothing about Sith holocrons.

So, clearly, it isn't hyperbole. It is a well thought out and complex sentence, and would not have been made if it were a hyperbole, and Sidious carried average knowledge of the Dark Side. Given his zealotry and fanaticism related to the Dark Side, his life's dedication to uncovering it's secrets, and that he commands the greatest resources and most powerful regime ever - I see no reason why it is a hyperbole and why it isn't possible.

So, no, I will continue to use it.

What about when he himself stated that he could not access certein holocrons of the jedi.

And now that quote "it is believed that he had mastered all known powers, unkown powers and creates them at pleasure" is sadly outdated.

New abilities like the fallanasi looping technique and the amulets were written after DE, and there is nothing to prove that sidious had ever met the fallanasi since they were hiding from him and he could not learn their ways of the force.

Another thing which is a debate in DESB. They said he spent decades uncovering the secrets of the force to master every aspect of the force, but is there anything to prove that? When we read RODV, he is back in coruscant, when we read the mandalorian armour, i doubt he bothered to uncover secrets, the only time where he could have studied the force at a higher degree is when the 6 year period between rotj and DE

And that quote came from the stat page of DESB. It never said anything about the fallanasi looping technique. All powers they claimed he mastered were there

Originally posted by Kadesh
every aspect of the force?
Major debate in DESB
1.Fallanasi people were hiding from palpatine and he could have never learned their ways of the force
2. he himself stated he could not acces the holocrons

Clearly hyperbole statements in DESB
i saw palpatines page, it is only said "it is believed he mastered all known techniques"

STOP using it as an arguement

1. There were Fallanassi traitors, remember?
No, wait, that'd be too easy...

2. To Leia. Meaning he was most probably lying. Or that you don't need holocrons to learn everything, consider that

And Kadesh, recent material substantiated his knowing everything: Visual Guide, Dark Side Sourcebook, Hyperspace suplements.....among, y'know, others

Oooh, sorry, but quotes don't get outdated unless there are direct contradictions.
And there aren't. Sucks for your argument, hm?

And if you're ready to stop being stupid: What was he doing during the Mandalorian Armor? I dunno, maybe he was, y'know, studying from the massive collection he had gained on Coruscant?

No, that would be too easy...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. There were Fallanassi traitors, remember?
No, wait, that'd be too easy...

Still, nothing proved that he even met a fallanasi whos a traitor, and even if he did, i doubt they would have showed him their ways of the force. Prove to me that he ever met a fallanasi, that ability was written LONG after DE,
Originally posted by Lightsnake
2. To Leia. Meaning he was most probably lying. Or that you don't need holocrons to learn everything, consider that
ooo why would he want to lie to her? just because he is a lier? And to learn certein things, you gotta learn it from a holocron encrypted by its creator, a reason why they do it, they wont be around to teach it, bane learnt most of his stuff from revan

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And Kadesh, recent material substantiated his knowing everything: Visual Guide, Dark Side Sourcebook, Hyperspace suplements.....among, y'know, others Ahahaha... tooled.. visual guide only stated he studied holocrons to become stronger, they didnt say he mastered everything, You love to lie dont you.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oooh, sorry, but quotes don't get outdated unless there are direct contradictions.
And there aren't. Sucks for your argument, hm?

no, it sucks for you, from your point of view, quotes dont get outdated unless there is a contradiction right? then lets look at tulak, Whom a quote from kreia which she or no body can, same with DESB, they have yet to prove it. They just said "It is believed"
You want to play idiot quotes then lets play, Totj stated ragnos was the strongest of the strongest, did it contradict anything? maybe, like the NEC, but that was the Dan wallace opinion, i got the email to prove it
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And if you're ready to stop being stupid: What was he doing during the Mandalorian Armor? I dunno, maybe he was, y'know, studying from the massive collection he had gained on Coruscant?
could be true, still we dont know what he is doing for sure.

Ragnos's quote only applies for his time. Sidious didn't exist back then. Adjectives like "ever" or phrases like "in history" were never used. And, of course, nothing states or implies that Ragnos knew anything on the level that Sidious did.

Good enough then, And thats because we dont know anything about ragnos, all we knew is that every1 feared him. He could be so powerful that he could kill every one with a simple attack, Or he could be so weak, R2d2 could mop his ass with a stun gun

Originally posted by Kadesh
Good enough then, And thats because we dont know anything about ragnos, all we knew is that every1 feared him. He could be so powerful that he could kill every one with a simple attack, Or he could be so weak, R2d2 could mop his ass with a stun gun

I doubt he's either extreme, Kadesh. Because Ragnos is an unknown, it is pointless to argue for or against him, which is why most of us try not to include him in anything at all.

But when they do, I play the skeptic, and argue against him, because there's nothing to support his awesome power in terms of evidence.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Still, nothing proved that he even met a fallanasi whos a traitor, and even if he did, i doubt they would have showed him their ways of the force. Prove to me that he ever met a fallanasi, that ability was written LONG after DE,
ooo why would he want to lie to her? just because he is a lier? And to learn certein things, you gotta learn it from a holocron encrypted by its creator, a reason why they do it, they wont be around to teach it, bane learnt most of his stuff from revan
It's been confirmed he lied to Luke before in the same comic, why not?
And since the continuity was established, the later continuity meshes perfectly with DE. It adapts to fit the earlier as there's zero contradiction. And the Fallanassi traitors joined the imperials. Logic, my friend.


Hardly, that's one thing, dear lad. There are others and all are used towards the same point


Awww, sorry, but Kreia's an in-universe falliable source and the TOTJ source was referring to a time before everything else. *Yawn*
And maybe that Ragnos one was KJA's opinion. Hypocrisy much?


Logic, logic.

Chill, LS.

Don't get wrapped up in a moment of self-absorption. The argument about the Visual Guide still applies and still helps your side.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It's been confirmed he lied to Luke before in the same comic, why not?
And since the continuity was established, the later continuity meshes perfectly with DE. It adapts to fit the earlier as there's zero contradiction. And the Fallanassi traitors joined the imperials. Logic, my friend. Prove that fallnasi joined the imperials. and prove that sidious learnt their ways of the force, tsk tsk, lying fanboys cant save sidious. This fallanasi ability was created long after DE
. They could have joined him(no proof). But why would he bother to learn defensive techniques? Even the DESB can back me up on this, he learns DARK SIDE techniques, he cares nothing for defensive techniques, try again, you fail



Originally posted by Lightsnake
Awww, sorry, but Kreia's an in-universe falliable source and the TOTJ source was referring to a time before everything else. *Yawn*
And maybe that Ragnos one was KJA's opinion. Hypocrisy much?
*snore* The same can be said for DESB

The visual guide confirmed he did study holocrons to become more powerful, But did not mention nor prove that he learnt every DARK side technique

Prove the Fallanassi joined the Imperials. Ever read the Black Fleet trilogy? Hey, umm, idiot? The full quote from Insider: "He had mastered the Great Power- The Force, the White Current, etc etc- what is the White Current? The Fallanassi term for the Force. Oh, moreover: In the BFC, Talsava betrayed the Fallanassi to the Imperials long ago. And since the quote is canon, that's the reasoning. Logic!

And once again: the DESCB is written from an out of universe POV, thanks for playing!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Prove the Fallanassi joined the Imperials. Ever read the Black Fleet trilogy? Hey, umm, idiot? The full quote from Insider: "He had mastered the Great Power- The Force, the White Current, etc etc- what is the White Current? The Fallanassi term for the Force. Oh, moreover: In the BFC, Talsava betrayed the Fallanassi to the Imperials long ago. And since the quote is canon, that's the reasoning. Logic!

And once again: the DESCB is written from an out of universe POV, thanks for playing! ahahahaha.. no such book exists, i checked on wiki, wookie, yahoo and google, nice try liyng!

Rip the exact quote from the book and ill believbe you

Star Wars Insider is a monthly Star Wars magazine.

And the Black Fleet Crisis Trilogy? Dark Empire Sourcebook? Those don't exist? Well, what are:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Black_Fleet_Crisis

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars_Insider

Appearances
Before the Storm
Shield of Lies
Tyrant's Test
Dark Nest I: The Joiner King
Retrieved from "http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/White_Current"

These were the appreances of the fallanasi, no "black fleet"

and again the fallanasi, even the traitors would never teach sidious the looping technique, They use it to defend themselves, nothing proved thatsidious knows it. You are a Liar

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Star Wars Insider is a monthly Star Wars magazine.

And the Black Fleet Crisis Trilogy? Dark Empire Sourcebook? Those don't exist? Well, what are:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Black_Fleet_Crisis

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars_Insider

Nice try, that was 16 ABY AFTER sidious died

Hey, umm....idiot? Talsava betrayed the Fallanassi long before the events of the book, nice try, though!

Sorry, you pathetic little idiot, but the quote's canon, meaning Palpatine learned it somehow, meaning you lose. Get the hell out of my face.

Oh, btw, that series of books is called THE BLACK FLEET CRISIS TRILGOY!

WOOOOOOWEEE!!!!

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Hey, umm....idiot? Talsava betrayed the Fallanassi long before the events of the book, nice try, though!

Sorry, you pathetic little idiot, but the quote's canon, meaning Palpatine learned it somehow, meaning you lose. Get the hell out of my face.


Oh, btw, that series of books is called THE BLACK FLEET CRISIS TRILGOY!

WOOOOOOWEEE!!!! ROFLMAO then dont waste your time!!!
"somehow" doesnt prove anything, just because he hangs out with a fallannasi? thats pathetic, so itssafe to say that this yuuzhan vong who hangs out with luke in the unifying "somehow" learnt the force?!
no! He doesnt giva jack about defensive techniques, its power he wants
And quit trolling!

Most YV can't learn the force, we call that a strawman.
And since it's canon Palp had all techniques, the explanation is right there

i love how kadesh calls people fanboys and tries to use that against them, but try to tell him that OT Vader is slow, and he gets all upset and fanboyish and tries to argue using EU material.

If a quote, statement, book, comic, or any other source indicates or even insinuates that something is true, and there's NOTHING to DISprove it, then it's canon if not contradicted. So if it leads you to believe that Sidious was with the fallannasi, and that he LEARNED every possible power, then thats what happened. If LS has ANY kind of support to his claims, and you have nothing to the contrary, guess who wins??? Could you say....LS? I knew you could.

Guys, CHILL!

LS, jeez, quit getting so freakin' defensive. No one here is a "pathetic little idiot".

Kadesh, he laid out the material, black and white. If you don't want to accept it, that is your prerogative. But he is right. Palpatine did learn the techniques. Quit trying to argue it.

DS, you're not helping the situation.

calling him out on his hypocricy might cause him to stop. I dont know why he cant except the facts.

Well, im argueing becase DESB is a debate itself, it said he mastered DARK SIDE techniques, the fallanasi is a lightside technique, the looping this and that, why the hell would palpatine need to learn that?

And im asking him to PROVE, that palpatine mastered lightside techniques, did he learn emerald lightning? no, does he ever uses spmb? no, he never uses what he learns,

Originally posted by Kadesh
Well, im argueing becase DESB is a debate itself, it said he mastered DARK SIDE techniques, the fallanasi is a lightside technique, the looping this and that, why the hell would palpatine need to learn that?

And im asking him to PROVE, that palpatine mastered lightside techniques, did he learn emerald lightning? no, does he ever uses spmb? no, he never uses what he learns,

1. I don't think Palpatine mastered any lightside techniques, as they are absolutely of no use to him.
2. Palpatine couldn't have learned emerald lightning considering he was long dead by the time Luke invented it.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
1. I don't think Palpatine mastered any lightside techniques, as they are absolutely of no use to him.
2. Palpatine couldn't have learned emerald lightning considering he was long dead by the time Luke invented it.

thank you very muchDarth sexy
, That answers it, palpatine DID NOT master lightside techniques and the looping technique is LIGHT SIDE.

Emerald lightning: Upgraded form of Electric Judgement, meaning force lightning in effect. That's it. And last I checked, Palp knew plenty lightside techniques-Morichro, Malacia, among others.

nd Sexy? IT says Palpatine 'mastered the forms of the lightsaber' and Maul reflects on Palp's exceptional mastery. Why wouldn't they be of use to him? He'd have to be prepared for a fight eventually

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Emerald lightning: Upgraded form of Electric Judgement, meaning force lightning in effect. That's it. And last I checked, Palp knew plenty lightside techniques-Morichro, Malacia, among others.


O great, sad to say luke INVENTED green lightning, plo koon was also a master of electric judgement, did it turn green? no, And even DESB can prove that he did not master the fallanassi technique

lightsnake the burden of proof is on you.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
lightsnake the burden of proof is on you.
PWNED

Ok, proof?

Insider and DESB state he masted everything. 'All known, unknown and forgotten."
That includes Fallnassi.

From Insider? "He had mastered the Great power in all its forms and all its levels. ."
We know several Fallanassi sold out to the Empire, so that accounts for that.

Proof Luke invented Emerald Lightning please? It's an upgraded form of Electric Judgement and in Traitor and Star by Star, Jacen and Jaina use Green Colored lightning.

To quote on EJ: It showed up as yellow or green energy instead of blue or white; appearance-wise it was like the dark side power Force lightning. An example of it being used for instance, Plo Koon would shoot lightning from his fingertips to wound enemies. A possible reason for this not being a widely used power is because of its similarities to the dark side power causing a moral issue among Jedi.


Luke's is so powerful because Luke is so powerful. The 'green sparks' were an upgraded form of Luke's signature Electric Judgement attack. Luke is just so powerful, he can kill someone with it instantly.

The info about the Electric Judgement is in The NEw Essential Guide to Characters.

Pwned indeed, friend.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ok, proof?

Insider and DESB state he masted everything. 'All known, unknown and forgotten."
That includes Fallnassi.
wrong, fallanasi was written AFTER de

Originally posted by Lightsnake
From Insider? "He had mastered the Great power in all its forms and all its levels. ."
We know several Fallanassi sold out to the Empire, so that accounts for that.
Wrong try again, That quote could not be referring to lightside techniques, prove that it is

Originally posted by Lightsnake

Proof Luke invented Emerald Lightning please? It's an upgraded form of Electric Judgement and in Traitor and Star by Star, Jacen and Jaina use Green Colored lightning.
Yea ok, but plo koon was a master too right? did it turn green and powerful? no, and jaina learnt it from luke


Originally posted by Lightsnake
can kill someone with it instantly.

The info about the Electric Judgement is in The NEw Essential Guide to Characters.

Nod, but nothing states that plo has emrald lightning nor does palpatine *yawn* try again

I know you are lieing because you are a liar

Originally posted by Kadesh
wrong, fallanasi was written AFTER de

Wrong try again, That quote could not be referring to lightside techniques, prove that it is

Yea ok, but plo koon was a master too right? did it turn green and powerful? no, and jaina learnt it from luke
Sure. 'All known, unknown and forgotten.'
And we see him use lightside techniques, and taught them to Luke- Morichro, Malacia, Battle Meditation,,,
And Jaina learned it from Luke? Prove it. Oh, btw: Did you miss what the passage said, from the NegtC? Green OR YELLOW.
And Jaina simply lashed out, no mention of her knowing the technique.
And The Black FLeet Crisis being written after means nothing. The continuity fits. DESB is still canon.
Sorry.

New Essential Guide to Characters states Plot has EL.
Oh, and by the way: Emerald lightning is the lightside version of force lightning. Therefore....
Oh, and according to the Potentium view of the Force, the technique depends on how its used
Lightside Force Lightning: Yellow or Green
Darkside FL: White or purple
K? K.


Whatever keeps you warm at night.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ok, proof?

Insider and DESB state he masted everything. 'All known, unknown and forgotten."
That includes Fallnassi.

From Insider? "He had mastered the Great power in all its forms and all its levels. ."
We know several Fallanassi sold out to the Empire, so that accounts for that.

Except for the fact that you're basing your argument on pure speculation.


You can call it an upgrade, but it's still his OWN personal technique that instakilled a slayer, and that has never been replicated. Therefore it's HIS.


That's YOUR opinion. An upgraded form made into an instakill makes it his OWN.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Sure. 'All known, unknown and forgotten.'
And we see him use lightside techniques, and taught them to Luke- Morichro, Malacia, Battle Meditation,,,
O great, you pulled that one outta your ass, battle meditation? yes he has that, he demonstrated it in ROTJ, and which other ls technique has he demonstrated? And again i have read DESB, it mentioned the list of powers he had, *checks to find looping technique* nope didnt see it, Did see alot of DS powers, not many Ls powers, try again
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And Jaina learned it from Luke? Prove it. Oh, btw: Did you miss what the passage said, from the NegtC? Green OR YELLOW.
And Jaina simply lashed out, no mention of her knowing the technique.
And The Black FLeet Crisis being written after means nothing. The continuity fits. DESB is still canon.
Sorry.
Wrong, so i could say that kreias quote is 100% true right? its still canon, As i said, DESB is a major debate, Fallanasi traitors? there would be a reason why they betray their people
1) they could have been cut of the force
2) sidious wouldnt know what the hell is that technique is for
3) if he doesnt know what its for he wont give a damm about it, sidious is a killer, not a defender, he will sought to kill his enemies with dark side techniques, never once has he shown us that he defended against another dark sider, try again