Biblical God, physical body or merely a spirit?

JesusIsAlive

Originally posted by Regret
I do not believe the text of the Bible necessitates God not having a physical form. Using the Bible prove that he does not.

This verse is not support:

John 4: 24
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Because, if it is stating that God does not have a physical form, then it also states that we must worship him in spirit, if man can worship in spirit, man is a spirit, and by the same logic man does not have a physical form. Also, as support for this verse not supporting God being merely a spirit:

1 Cor. 15: 45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Zech. 12: 1
1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Num. 27: 16, 18
16 Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation,

Man is a spirit. Saying this does not deny the physical aspect of man, thus saying "God is a Spirit", does not deny the possibility of a physical aspect of the Biblical God.

You are not rightly dividing the Word of Truth. God does not have a physical body (first of all because the Bible says so) because He does not need one. God exists in the spirit realm; therefore, it would not be necessary for Him to have a physical body. We have physical bodies because we exist in the material world or realm. We live in a physical environment. But God does not. Physical things are physical and spiritual things are spiritual. Both have substance in their respective environments. God has a spiritual body with spiritual substance or spiritual corporeality. We have a physical body with physical substance or physical corporeality. This is all there is to it. Yes, we are created in God's image and likeness and we are spirits but in order to live in this natural world, we need a physical body. Why do you think Jesus was born into the world? He needed a physical body just like us in order to die for our sins. He could not die for our sins in Heaven because Heaven is populated by spirits.

peejayd

"God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."
John 4:24

* Christ Himself said this and you don't believe, my friend? what is the explanation of Christ about what a spirit is?

"See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have."
Luke 24:39

* Christ also said that a spirit has no flesh and bones... humans have flesh and bones... humans, in its entirety, are not spirits...

* humans, however, have spirits but are NOT spirits... that's why Christians are commanded by Christ to worship God in spirit and in truth...

"Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."
Matthew 26:41

* see? humans have flesh and humans also have spirit... wink

debbiejo

Everything is energy.................as told in quantum mechanics..........give it all the names you want.............LOL

Imperial_Samura

I am going to side with Origen on this one - if God wants a body he would have one. If he needs a human face he can have one.

And for that he was declared heretical - God is pure spirit they said, and it is nigh blasphemy to soil his image with a something profane like a material body.

But, I would say if I believed - this is God we are talking about. He can have what he wants.

JesusIsAlive

Originally posted by peejayd
"God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."
John 4:24

* Christ Himself said this and you don't believe, my friend? what is the explanation of Christ about what a spirit is?

"See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have."
Luke 24:39

* Christ also said that a spirit has no flesh and bones... humans have flesh and bones... humans, in its entirety, are not spirits...

* humans, however, have spirits but are NOT spirits... that's why Christians are commanded by Christ to worship God in spirit and in truth...

"Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."
Matthew 26:41

* see? humans have flesh and humans also have spirit... wink

I suspect that this post is directed at me right Peejayd or is it addressed to someone else? In case it is meant for me I will respond accordingly.

For the umpteenth time pal you are not rightly dividing the Word of Truth. I have never seen a person so sincerely wrong in all my life. You seem to know what the Scriptures say friend but when it comes to accurately understanding it, this is where you fail--but not irreparably. Peejayd do you recall our past discussions on this very subject? Neither of us saw eye to eye on this subject. I furnished a plethora of Scriptures to substantiate what the Bible reveals (not my interpretation of what the Bible reveals). However, we do not need to fall out about this subject. This subject falls under the category of being a non-essential i.e. whether you believe that we are spirits or not will not affect your salvation (if you are saved). Peejayd I do not wish to rebut you at length so I will keep this post relatively succinct. From past experience it is evident that you do not rely 100% on what the Bible reveals about certain subjects, but instead you tenaciously hold on to your beliefs although they contradict the Bible. Regret follows in your shoes. For instance, I have provided a preponderance of Scriptures that unequivocally prove that Jesus is God and not "a" God as you assert. There are three subjects that we do not agree on. First, I have affirmed that we are spirits (this is the aspect of our three-fold nature that is created in the image and likeness of God. We are spirits, we have souls , and the spirit and our soul live in our physical earth suit ). Second, I have declared that Jesus is God not a "God." I don't mean that Jesus is the Father per se, I mean that He is the Second Person in the Godhead. The Godhead consists of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These Three (Persons) are one God. So it is accurate to say that the Father is God, Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. I have conveyed that these Three are co-equal in every way. Third, I have stated that we are not saved by our good moral lives. Salvation is a gift. A gift cannot be earned because that is what a gift connotes. The only thing that you can do with a gift is accept it. The Bible has a lot to say about salvation being a gift and about it being something that cannot be earned. You simply need faith in Jesus Christ for salvation to be saved. Your good moral life should be a reflection of the change that has occurred on the inside of you (if you are saved). But your works will not ever save you. Faith and works don't save you. I have already explained what James 2:14-26 means. The Bible does not contradict itself and God is not the Author of confusion. For the Bible to say one thing in one or more verses but then say that exact opposite in other verses would constitute confusion. The Bible does not do that. l will end on this note.

Regret

debbiejo

God doesn't need a body. What's god gonna do with it..........But if he wants to I suppose he could.....or she could.........Ok, IT could.........IT could be a dog if it wanted too.........A tree..........Katsup bottle...........

In fact IT already is.

Regret

"God is a Spirit" does not delimit the possibility of God having a physical form. Man is a spirit and man is a body, is he not? Or is the spirit of man in no manner a part of man? It is only interpretation that supports a conclusive stance on the subject, not the text of the Bible.

Regret

Originally posted by debbiejo
God doesn't need a body. What's god gonna do with it..........But if he wants to I suppose he could.....or she could.........Ok, IT could.........IT could be a dog if it wanted too.........A tree..........Katsup bottle...........

In fact IT already is. That is not the point, the discussion here is whether or not the Bible is definitive on the subject of a physical form. Also, the Biblical God is male, not female or it, this is absolute in the Bible. The title of the thread delimits the subject to the Biblical God, not other conceptions of God.

Regret

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
First, I have affirmed that we are spirits...
If man is a spirit, the verse stating "God is a Spirit" does not delimit God to only being a Spirit. Show some Biblical support for the idea that God is only a Spirit.

debbiejo

Originally posted by Regret
That is not the point, the discussion here is whether or not the Bible is definitive on the subject of a physical form. Also, the Biblical God is male, not female or it, this is absolute in the Bible. The title of the thread delimits the subject to the Biblical God, not other conceptions of God. Elohim is used in many ways with certain verbs and be male, female, or plural.

mahasattva

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
You are not rightly dividing the Word of Truth. God does not have a physical body (first of all because the Bible says so) because He does not need one. God exists in the spirit realm; therefore, it would not be necessary for Him to have a physical body. We have physical bodies because we exist in the material world or realm. We live in a physical environment. But God does not. Physical things are physical and spiritual things are spiritual. Both have substance in their respective environments. God has a spiritual body with spiritual substance or spiritual corporeality. We have a physical body with physical substance or physical corporeality. This is all there is to it. Yes, we are created in God's image and likeness and we are spirits but in order to live in this natural world, we need a physical body. Why do you think Jesus was born into the world? He needed a physical body just like us in order to die for our sins. He could not die for our sins in Heaven because Heaven is populated by spirits.

This kind of principle seemingly teaches us that the mind(spiritual) or the "true entity" and body(physical) or "all phenomana" are two distinct realms or entities. This philosophies is , thus, subdivided by the Materialists doctrine which claims that only the physical or material world, which can be measured or observed, is the true "reality," whereas some spiritual traditions see the physical world as mere illusion--or something which exists in order to be transcended--and the invisible, mental realm as the ultimate truth in which these teaching or faith representing a still-shallow and provisional body of philosophy, expounded that all phenomena (individual life) derived from the mind (cosmic life). In this case, the mind is like the earth, while all phenomena are like the plants growing in it. According to this paradigm, the mind and phenomena are separate entities.

Buddhism views life as dual in nature, as the unity of both the physical and the spiritual. All things, whether material or spiritual, seen or unseen, are manifestations of the same ultimate universal law(truth or reality) or source of life . The physical and spiritual aspects of our lives, although separate classes of phenomena, are completely inseparable and of equal importance. The Buddhist principle "The true entity" of "all phenomena" does not,however, mean that the true entity is contained within all phenomena or vice versa, nor does it assume the existence of some being that exists beyond all universal phenomena and governs them. Western philosophers and other non-Buddhist thinkers and systems of thought have long sought some truth or essence either beyond or behind phenomena. The Christian idea of an absolute God as the creator of the world is a good example of how these other philosophies removed the ultimate truth from all real phenomena. The inevitable result was a split between God and man or between Creator and creature. Churches and priests took over as the "authorized" intermediaries between the two, and they grew so powerful that the people were treated like vassals.

Buddhism is totally different. The Buddhist finds truth in reality itself; he discovers the underlying truth by steadily and carefully observing man and the things around him. "The true entity of all phenomena" is, therefore, a philosophy that sees into the real aspect of every reality in the universe, especially human life. All phenomena and the true entity are "two but not two," for one cannot exist without the other. This is what binds the true entity and all phenomena together, making them one and the same, even though they may seem to be different. All phenomena --- the sun and the moon as they rise and set, the ebb and flow of the seas, the bending of trees before the wind --- in the eye of Buddhism all appear as the action of Law or mystic truth.

The Judeo-Christian religions may assert that their supreme beings do not appear in any real form, but the Buddhism of the Lotus Sutra proclaims that there is NO true entity outside of phenomena.

Regret

Originally posted by debbiejo
Elohim is used in many ways with certain verbs and be male, female, or plural. Perhaps, but "God the Father" limits it a bit.

Regret

Originally posted by mahasattva
This kind of principle seemingly teaches us that the mind(spiritual) or the "true entity" and body(physical) or "all phenomana" are two distinct realms or entities. This philosophies is , thus, subdivided by the Materialists doctrine which claims that only the physical or material world, which can be measured or observed, is the true "reality," whereas some spiritual traditions see the physical world as mere illusion--or something which exists in order to be transcended--and the invisible, mental realm as the ultimate truth in which these teaching or faith representing a still-shallow and provisional body of philosophy, expounded that all phenomena (individual life) derived from the mind (cosmic life). In this case, the mind is like the earth, while all phenomena are like the plants growing in it. According to this paradigm, the mind and phenomena are separate entities.

Buddhism views life as dual in nature, as the unity of both the physical and the spiritual. All things, whether material or spiritual, seen or unseen, are manifestations of the same ultimate universal law(truth or reality) or source of life . The physical and spiritual aspects of our lives, although separate classes of phenomena, are completely inseparable and of equal importance. The Buddhist principle "The true entity" of "all phenomena" does not,however, mean that the true entity is contained within all phenomena or vice versa, nor does it assume the existence of some being that exists beyond all universal phenomena and governs them. Western philosophers and other non-Buddhist thinkers and systems of thought have long sought some truth or essence either beyond or behind phenomena. The Christian idea of an absolute God as the creator of the world is a good example of how these other philosophies removed the ultimate truth from all real phenomena. The inevitable result was a split between God and man or between Creator and creature. Churches and priests took over as the "authorized" intermediaries between the two, and they grew so powerful that the people were treated like vassals.

Buddhism is totally different. The Buddhist finds truth in reality itself; he discovers the underlying truth by steadily and carefully observing man and the things around him. "The true entity of all phenomena" is, therefore, a philosophy that sees into the real aspect of every reality in the universe, especially human life. All phenomena and the true entity are "two but not two," for one cannot exist without the other. This is what binds the true entity and all phenomena together, making them one and the same, even though they may seem to be different. All phenomena --- the sun and the moon as they rise and set, the ebb and flow of the seas, the bending of trees before the wind --- in the eye of Buddhism all appear as the action of Law or mystic truth.

The Judeo-Christian religions may assert that their supreme beings do not appear in any real form, but the Buddhism of the Lotus Sutra proclaims that there is NO true entity outside of phenomena. God in the Biblical sense is not entirely the same as God's power. To compare Biblical religions with Buddhism is fairly simple.

Buddhism believes in an energy/force/law, something anyway, exactly what is irrelevant to the comparison, that is the essence of existence. For Biblical religions this is the power of God, in my religion, the Priesthood, Biblical belief merely has a source from which this essence flows, where to my understanding Buddhism has this essence as self existing and without a source. If there were a single source of the essence of existence in Buddhism that would be the equivalent to God. God is merely a variable that does not exist in the Buddhist belief. In Buddhism, without this central direction, man must learn how to live in harmony with the essence of existence without aid from a divine source of instruction, Biblical religion has a divine being that instructs on how to achieve harmony with this essence.

debbiejo

Originally posted by Regret
Perhaps, but "God the Father" limits it a bit. I'd rather go by the original language and what was meant by it.....As for Father, you must remember that it was a mans world, and the word Papa was just to say god could be familiar with you....

besides the word Elohim was also put with a femanine verb.

Regret

Originally posted by debbiejo
I'd rather go by the original language and what was meant by it.....As for Father, you must remember that it was a mans world, and the word Papa was just to say god could be familiar with you.... Regardless, the Bible uses the term "Father", and the Christian Bible describes God in that manner. Your belief as to the Christian Bible is not being discussed, the God presented therein is.

debbiejo

Originally posted by Regret
Regardless, the Bible uses the term "Father", and the Christian Bible describes God in that manner. Your belief as to the Christian Bible is not being discussed, the God presented therein is. I AM discussing the Christian god........It's Elohim.

Regret

Originally posted by debbiejo
I AM discussing the Christian god........It's Elohim. God the Father is the God we are discussing, Christians believe Elohim to be God the Father. Do you disagree that NT reference to God the Father is in reference to Elohim?

debbiejo

While the words El, Elohim, and eloah are clearly related, with the word El being the stem, it is uncertain whether the word Elohim is derived from El through eloah. Moreover, the word eloah is arguably feminine. If this is true, some have suggested that the word Elohim is the masculine plural of a feminine noun, used as a singular. This would imply indeterminacy in both number and gender. However, this is speculative and confusing, although consistent with many Christian views of the Godhead.

The meaning of Elohim is further complicated by the fact that it is used to describe the spirit of the dead prophet Samuel, raised by Saul in 1 Samuel 28:13. The witch of Endor tells Saul that she sees 'gods' (elohim) coming up out of the earth; this seems to indicate that the term was indeed used simply to mean something like 'divine beings' in ancient Israel.

The Hebrews had three common names of God, El, Elohim, and Eloah; besides, they had the proper name Yahweh. Nestle is authority for the statement that Yahweh occurs about six thousand times in the Old Testament, while all the common names of God taken together do not occur half as often. The name Elohim is found 2570 times; Eloah, 57 times

Actually gods name in the bible is EL...

Regret

Originally posted by debbiejo
While the words El, Elohim, and eloah are clearly related, with the word El being the stem, it is uncertain whether the word Elohim is derived from El through eloah. Moreover, the word eloah is arguably feminine. If this is true, some have suggested that the word Elohim is the masculine plural of a feminine noun, used as a singular. This would imply indeterminacy in both number and gender. However, this is speculative and confusing, although consistent with many Christian views of the Godhead.

The meaning of Elohim is further complicated by the fact that it is used to describe the spirit of the dead prophet Samuel, raised by Saul in 1 Samuel 28:13. The witch of Endor tells Saul that she sees 'gods' (elohim) coming up out of the earth; this seems to indicate that the term was indeed used simply to mean something like 'divine beings' in ancient Israel.

The Hebrews had three common names of God, El, Elohim, and Eloah; besides, they had the proper name Yahweh. Nestle is authority for the statement that Yahweh occurs about six thousand times in the Old Testament, while all the common names of God taken together do not occur half as often. The name Elohim is found 2570 times; Eloah, 57 times

Actually gods name in the bible is EL... Regardless, NT verses referring to God the Father are in reference to Elohim in the OT. Christianity follows the New Testament, and the NT is a part of the Bible. If you are only speaking as to the OT and disregarding the NT, then you are not referencing the Biblical God, the Bible is the OT and the NT, separated they are not the Bible.

Also, this does not address the question, is God the Father a reference to Elohim or not?

debbiejo

It seems you are a NT Christian. So let's throw out the OT ok.....

To answer your question...I did.......It can mean papa, mom or us.......masculine, feminine, or plural.

mahasattva

Originally posted by Regret
God in the Biblical sense is not entirely the same as God's power. To compare Biblical religions with Buddhism is fairly simple.

Buddhism believes in an energy/force/law, something anyway, exactly what is irrelevant to the comparison, that is the essence of existence. For Biblical religions this is the power of God, in my religion, the Priesthood, Biblical belief merely has a source from which this essence flows, where to my understanding Buddhism has this essence as self existing and without a source. If there were a single source of the essence of existence in Buddhism that would be the equivalent to God. God is merely a variable that does not exist in the Buddhist belief. In Buddhism, without this central direction, man must learn how to live in harmony with the essence of existence without aid from a divine source of instruction, Biblical religion has a divine being that instructs on how to achieve harmony with this essence.

The ultimate and all-abiding law(truth) that the Buddha perceived may be another name for some people's concept of God. On the other hand, a person who cannot believe in an anthropomorphic God can see an underlying energy to the universe. The breadth of Buddhism encompasses both views and focuses on the individual.

There is no one to blame - and no one to implore for salvation. In Buddhism, no God or supernatural entity plans and shapes our fates. In Western religion, you can bring yourself closer to God through your faith, but you can never become God. In Buddhism, one could never be separate from the wisdom of God, because the ultimate wisdom already exists in the heart of every person. Through Buddhist practice, we seek to call forth that portion of the universal life force existing originally and eternally within - what we call Buddhahood - and manifest it by becoming a Buddha. Buddhists become aware of the existence, in their innermost depths, of the eternal law(truth) that permeates both the universe and the individual human being. They aim to live every day in accordance with that law. In so doing, they discover a way of living that redirects all things toward hope, value and harmony. It is the discovery of this objective law itself, as it manifests within the individual, that creates spiritual value, NOT some exterior power or being.

As my great teacher Nichiren, 13th century japanese reformist monk, stated in a famous letter titled "On Attaining Buddhahood In This Lifetime":

..."Your practice of the teachings will not relieve you of the sufferings of birth and death in the least unless you perceive the true nature of your life. If you seek enlightenment outside yourself, then your performing even ten thousand practices and ten thousand good deeds will be in vain. It is like the case of a poor man who spends night and day counting his neighbor's wealth but gains not even half a coin..."

This idea that the power to achieve happiness lies totally within can be disconcerting. It entails a radical sense of responsibility. My mentor Daisaku Ikeda has written: "Society is complex and harsh, demanding that you struggle hard to survive. No one can make you happy. Everything depends on you as to whether or not you attain happiness�. A human being is destined to a life of great suffering if he is weak and vulnerable to his external surroundings."

Atlantis001

In the OT we can find places that imply that God has no shape or form, and thus no physical body.

Deuteronomy 4:15
"You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire..."

I think there where other places in Exodus perhaps, but I couldn�t find right now.

Anyway, it is well know that in the hebrew culture(OT) God as viewed as a shapeless being.

Regret

Originally posted by debbiejo
It seems you are a NT Christian. So let's throw out the OT ok.....

To answer your question...I did.......It can mean papa, mom or us.......masculine, feminine, or plural. Not throwing it out, but the two are both necessary for a Christian view, both OT and NT, imo, and the God that exists when both are considered is the God to which I am referring.

Regret

Originally posted by mahasattva
The ultimate and all-abiding law(truth) that the Buddha perceived may be another name for some people's concept of God. On the other hand, a person who cannot believe in an anthropomorphic God can see an underlying energy to the universe. The breadth of Buddhism encompasses both views and focuses on the individual.

There is no one to blame - and no one to implore for salvation. In Buddhism, no God or supernatural entity plans and shapes our fates. In Western religion, you can bring yourself closer to God through your faith, but you can never become God. In Buddhism, one could never be separate from the wisdom of God, because the ultimate wisdom already exists in the heart of every person. Through Buddhist practice, we seek to call forth that portion of the universal life force existing originally and eternally within - what we call Buddhahood - and manifest it by becoming a Buddha. Buddhists become aware of the existence, in their innermost depths, of the eternal law(truth) that permeates both the universe and the individual human being. They aim to live every day in accordance with that law. In so doing, they discover a way of living that redirects all things toward hope, value and harmony. It is the discovery of this objective law itself, as it manifests within the individual, that creates spiritual value, NOT some exterior power or being.

As my great teacher Nichiren, 13th century japanese reformist monk, stated in a famous letter titled "On Attaining Buddhahood In This Lifetime":

..."Your practice of the teachings will not relieve you of the sufferings of birth and death in the least unless you perceive the true nature of your life. If you seek enlightenment outside yourself, then your performing even ten thousand practices and ten thousand good deeds will be in vain. It is like the case of a poor man who spends night and day counting his neighbor's wealth but gains not even half a coin..."

This idea that the power to achieve happiness lies totally within can be disconcerting. It entails a radical sense of responsibility. My mentor Daisaku Ikeda has written: "Society is complex and harsh, demanding that you struggle hard to survive. No one can make you happy. Everything depends on you as to whether or not you attain happiness�. A human being is destined to a life of great suffering if he is weak and vulnerable to his external surroundings." Your explanation is merely an expounding of what I would term the power of God. Everything you have stated I wholly believe. The aspects of Christian belief that you do not agree with are as to the concept of God, which is the source of the essence of existence. The ultimate and all-abiding law(truth) that the Buddha perceived is only the perception of the laws of existence, not necessarily the end of existence. He perceived existence and how it works, but not everything, imo.

JesusIsAlive

Originally posted by Atlantis001
In the OT we can find places that imply that God has no shape or form, and thus no physical body.

Deuteronomy 4:15
"You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire..."

I think there where other places in Exodus perhaps, but I couldn�t find right now.

Anyway, it is well know that in the hebrew culture(OT) God as viewed as a shapeless being.

Atlantis001, this verse of Scripture does not mean that God has no shape. Moses is simply letting the children of Israel know that they saw no form of any kind the day the Lord spoke to them at Horeb out of the fire. Moses reminds them of this fact in an effort to deter them from creating an idol of God (for worship). Atlantis001 what you need to do is examine and consider the verse (or verses) that immediately precede and follow the verse that you read to get a better understanding of what that verse is talking about. In other words, you need to study the context i.e. surrounding verses of Scripture of a particular verse to fully understand what a given verse means.

I believe that the Bible reveals that God does have a shape and that His shape is the basis of our shape. We (human beings only, animals are not included) are created in the image and likeness of God. This is a reference to the spirit aspect of our three-fold nature. We are spirits, we have souls, and we live in a body. But this also includes the shape of our anatomy. Image and likeness is a reference to our three-fold nature and the anthropomorphic shape of our anatomy. So God is a Spirit, He has a soul, and He has an anthropomorphic shape or anatomy. In the Book of Exodus Moses describes that He, his brother Aaron, Aaron's sons Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel saw God's feet.

Exodus 24:10
and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity.

So from this passage of Scripture we can safely deduce that God has feet and feet are normally attached to an ankle which in turn is attached to a leg. Legs are held together by a pelvic girdle which is connected to a torso/abdomen area.

Exodus 33:20
But He said, �You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.�

Atlantis001, based on this verse of Scripture (there are others but I will just use this one) we can see that God has a face. A face is part of a head. A head has ears, eyes, a nose, a mouth, etc.

Exodus 33:22-23
So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by. Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen.�

God reveals to Moses that He has a hand, a back, and a face. This is proof positive that God has a shape and it dispels the fallacy that God is formless. What I believe that some people erroneously do is confuse the glory of God (which is relatively formless) with the shape or anatomy of God. God's glory is an expression of His magnificence, greatness, splendor, and beauty. God is so wonderful and sublime that glory, which has effulgence (i.e. radiant splendor and brilliance), emanates and issues from Him. The apostle John, who history records had been exiled to the island of Patmos in the Aegean Sea, relates in his experience that He saw a throne set in Heaven. John states that He Who sat on the throne was like a jasper and sardius stone in appearance.

Revelation 4:2-3
Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. And He who sat there was like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald.

We can infer from this passage of Scripture that John saw the Father God seated on His throne in Heaven. Thus far Atlantis 001 we have learned that God has a face, a back, a hand, and feet. This coincides with my belief (which is wholly based on Scripture and nothing else) that God has an anthropomorphic anatomy. We are created in God's image and likeness so that is why we bear the shape of God in terms of our anatomy (i.e. a face, back, hands, feet, etc.). I could go on detailing and expounding this subject but I am satisfied that I have shown from the Word of God that God does in fact have a body, but it is a "spiritual" body and not a physical body.

mahasattva

Originally posted by Regret
Your explanation is merely an expounding of what I would term the power of God. Everything you have stated I wholly believe. The aspects of Christian belief that you do not agree with are as to the concept of God, which is the source of the essence of existence. The ultimate and all-abiding law(truth) that the Buddha perceived is only the perception of the laws of existence, not necessarily the end of existence. He perceived existence and how it works, but not everything, imo.

Yes, but buddhism takes radically on different path....."There is no one to blame - and no one to implore for salvation and that no God or supernatural entity plans and shapes our fates....."

The idea that something other than ourselves controls our destiny can in one sense be seen as a form of avoidance—a rationalization to escape facing and challenging real problems and suffering. It may also be an expression of a deep, subconscious sense of helplessness.

Buddhism teaches the solution to human suffering and provides a way to overcome or transform this sense of helplessness. Ultimately, it teaches that the cause of misery lies not with any external force/being or circumstance, but with ourselves. Buddhism looks nowhere beyond the sufferer for both the cause and the solution to suffering.

Regret

Originally posted by mahasattva
Yes, but buddhism takes radically on different path....."There is no one to blame - and no one to implore for salvation and that no God or supernatural entity plans and shapes our fates....."

The idea that something other than ourselves controls our destiny can in one sense be seen as a form of avoidance—a rationalization to escape facing and challenging real problems and suffering. It may also be an expression of a deep, subconscious sense of helplessness.

Buddhism teaches the solution to human suffering and provides a way to overcome or transform this sense of helplessness. Ultimately, it teaches that the cause of misery lies not with any external force/being or circumstance, but with ourselves. Buddhism looks nowhere beyond the sufferer for both the cause and the solution to suffering. So you are not fated to grow and learn and become an adult? Life has a plan for you regardless of your desire otherwise. Your nature is your nature, there is no escaping that. Christian belief does not tie man to any specific destiny, etc. It just claims that man's nature is more than the limited existence here in this realm. Nothing shapes your path but you, God does not do this. Ultimately, Christianity teaches that the cause of misery lies not with any external force/being or circumstance, but with ourselves. Christianity looks nowhere beyond the sufferer for both the cause and the solution to suffering. Christianity teaches that man must behave in a loving manner, in part to diminish ones own suffering, but mainly to aid others by relieving the suffering we might have caused had we behaved differently. Claims beyond this are lies and falsehoods, anything not in line with the teaching of "love thy neighbor" is a falsehood.

You throw terms around without understanding: avoidance, rationalization, escape, subconscious. These terms are only valid in some individuals, not in all of Christianity. Also, the subconscious has never been shown to exist, we highly doubt the probability of it existing.

Man is wholly responsible for his own actions and no other's. God does not "control" or "shape" man's destiny or fate, he is merely the loving Father waiting for the Graduation. We "control" or "shape" our destiny and our fate.

mahasattva

Originally posted by Regret
So you are not fated to grow and learn and become an adult? Life has a plan for you regardless of your desire otherwise. Your nature is your nature, there is no escaping that. Christian belief does not tie man to any specific destiny, etc. It just claims that man's nature is more than the limited existence here in this realm. Nothing shapes your path but you, God does not do this. Ultimately, Christianity teaches that the cause of misery lies not with any external force/being or circumstance, but with ourselves. Christianity looks nowhere beyond the sufferer for both the cause and the solution to suffering. Christianity teaches that man must behave in a loving manner, in part to diminish ones own suffering, but mainly to aid others by relieving the suffering we might have caused had we behaved differently. Claims beyond this are lies and falsehoods, anything not in line with the teaching of "love thy neighbor" is a falsehood.

You throw terms around without understanding: avoidance, rationalization, escape, subconscious. These terms are only valid in some individuals, not in all of Christianity. Also, the subconscious has never been shown to exist, we highly doubt the probability of it existing.

Man is wholly responsible for his own actions and no other's. God does not "control" or "shape" man's destiny or fate, he is merely the loving Father waiting for the Graduation. We "control" or "shape" our destiny and our fate.

Not really. In certain areas there might be parallels. But to see them as equal is to gloss over some key differences. For one thing, in Buddhism we have to work out our own salvation. We don�t expect a savior(i.e. Christ) to do it for us.

With regard to karma, as I understand it, Christians don�t believe that every volitional action has a consequence. Instead, they ask for forgiveness so as to erase the previous error. This, as I see it, can lead to immorality as there are no actual consequences for inappropriate actions.

debbiejo

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Atlantis001, this verse of Scripture does not mean that God has no shape. Moses is simply letting the children of Israel know that they saw no form of any kind the day the Lord spoke to them at Horeb out of the fire. Moses reminds them of this fact in an effort to deter them from creating an idol of God (for worship). Atlantis001 what you need to do is examine and consider the verse (or verses) that immediately precede and follow the verse that you read to get a better understanding of what that verse is talking about. In other words, you need to study the context i.e. surrounding verses of Scripture of a particular verse to fully understand what a given verse means.

I believe that the Bible reveals that God does have a shape and that His shape is the basis of our shape. We (human beings only, animals are not included) are created in the image and likeness of God. This is a reference to the spirit aspect of our three-fold nature. We are spirits, we have souls, and we live in a body. But this also includes the shape of our anatomy. Image and likeness is a reference to our three-fold nature and the anthropomorphic shape of our anatomy. So God is a Spirit, He has a soul, and He has an anthropomorphic shape or anatomy. In the Book of Exodus Moses describes that He, his brother Aaron, Aaron's sons Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel saw God's feet.

Exodus 24:10
and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity.

So from this passage of Scripture we can safely deduce that God has feet and feet are normally attached to an ankle which in turn is attached to a leg. Legs are held together by a pelvic girdle which is connected to a torso/abdomen area.

Exodus 33:20
But He said, �You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.�

Atlantis001, based on this verse of Scripture (there are others but I will just use this one) we can see that God has a face. A face is part of a head. A head has ears, eyes, a nose, a mouth, etc.

Exodus 33:22-23
So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by. Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen.�

God reveals to Moses that He has a hand, a back, and a face. This is proof positive that God has a shape and it dispels the fallacy that God is formless. What I believe that some people erroneously do is confuse the glory of God (which is relatively formless) with the shape or anatomy of God. God's glory is an expression of His magnificence, greatness, splendor, and beauty. God is so wonderful and sublime that glory, which has effulgence (i.e. radiant splendor and brilliance), emanates and issues from Him. The apostle John, who history records had been exiled to the island of Patmos in the Aegean Sea, relates in his experience that He saw a throne set in Heaven. John states that He Who sat on the throne was like a jasper and sardius stone in appearance.

Revelation 4:2-3
Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. And He who sat there was like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald.

We can infer from this passage of Scripture that John saw the Father God seated on His throne in Heaven. Thus far Atlantis 001 we have learned that God has a face, a back, a hand, and feet. This coincides with my belief (which is wholly based on Scripture and nothing else) that God has an anthropomorphic anatomy. We are created in God's image and likeness so that is why we bear the shape of God in terms of our anatomy (i.e. a face, back, hands, feet, etc.). I could go on detailing and expounding this subject but I am satisfied that I have shown from the Word of God that God does in fact have a body, but it is a "spiritual" body and not a physical body.
Origen

"Since our mind is in itself unable to behold God as he is, it knows the Father of the universe from the beauty of his works and from the elegance of his creatures. God, therefore, is not to be thought of as being either a body or as existing in a body, but as a simple intellectual being, admitting within himself no addition of any kind" (Fundamental Doctrines 1:1:6 ).

"John says in the gospel, �No one has at any time seen God,� clearly declaring to all who are able to understand, that there is no nature to which God is visible, not as if he were indeed visible by nature, and merely escaped or baffled the view of a frailer creature, but because he is by nature impossible to be seen"

Didymus the Blind

"God is simple and of an incomposite and spiritual nature, having neither ears nor organs of speech. A solitary essence and illimitable, he is composed of no numbers and parts" (The Holy Spirit 35 ).

Actually giving god a shape is blasphamy.... Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

If god is in Heaven, then we are not to have an image to him or IT ..Elohim.

Regret

Originally posted by mahasattva
Not really. In certain areas there might be parallels. But to see them as equal is to gloss over some key differences. For one thing, in Buddhism we have to work out our own salvation. We don�t expect a savior(i.e. Christ) to do it for us.

You do not believe that anyone can aid you in doing what you have difficulty doing, or find impossible to do yourself? Buddhists from what you have stated are rather arrogant individuals. Everyone should be aware of their shortcomings and allow others to aid them when possible and available. Expectation has nothing to do with it. If someone offers aid, you should allow them to do so, it will make the journey that much easier. Would you rather deny them the opportunity to act for the benefit of others?

Also, fact of this existence, people are not equal. Some people are more competant or capable than others in various aspects than others. Everyone can be aided by someone else.

Christianity teaches that faith without works is dead and that salvation is based on faith. Regardless of how you interpret the scripture you are not saved if the works are not present.

Originally posted by mahasattva
With regard to karma, as I understand it, Christians don�t believe that every volitional action has a consequence. Instead, they ask for forgiveness so as to erase the previous error. This, as I see it, can lead to immorality as there are no actual consequences for inappropriate actions. This is an oversimplification of Christian belief, accurate to those that only mildly or arrogantly study the teachings in the Bible. All actions have consequences according to Christian belief. We believe in consequences that are external as well as internal. Christ took upon himself the external consequences, the internal consequences must be resolved before the external consequence can be requested to be removed from us (in other words forgiveness granted.) The internal consequences are the increased probability of action that is not in harmony with behavior in line with a heavenly state, the guilt associated with a knowledge of the harm the action caused to others or ourselves, etc. These must be taken care of before forgiveness can truly take place. The external consequences are the requirements of justice, the egg falls and it breaks. External consequences exist. It seems, in my communications with Buddhists, that many Buddhists ignore or deny the external consequences of action and focus too heavily on only the internal consequences. They deny responsibility to those outside themselves in their pursuit of enlightenment. If any action you do causes any negative feeling, external consequence, etc. you must satisfy the laws governing that action, be the laws natural, governmental, familial, etc. If by your action a person feels less, you are further from harmony with the state that is enlightenment/heaven. External consequences can be mediated externally, but it requires acceptance of mediation, this is repentance and forgiveness.

peejayd

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive

I suspect that this post is directed at me right Peejayd or is it addressed to someone else? In case it is meant for me I will respond accordingly.

For the umpteenth time pal you are not rightly dividing the Word of Truth. I have never seen a person so sincerely wrong in all my life. You seem to know what the Scriptures say friend but when it comes to accurately understanding it, this is where you fail--but not irreparably. Peejayd do you recall our past discussions on this very subject? Neither of us saw eye to eye on this subject. I furnished a plethora of Scriptures to substantiate what the Bible reveals (not my interpretation of what the Bible reveals). However, we do not need to fall out about this subject. This subject falls under the category of being a non-essential i.e. whether you believe that we are spirits or not will not affect your salvation (if you are saved). Peejayd I do not wish to rebut you at length so I will keep this post relatively succinct. From past experience it is evident that you do not rely 100% on what the Bible reveals about certain subjects, but instead you tenaciously hold on to your beliefs although they contradict the Bible. Regret follows in your shoes. For instance, I have provided a preponderance of Scriptures that unequivocally prove that Jesus is God and not "a" God as you assert. There are three subjects that we do not agree on. First, I have affirmed that we are spirits (this is the aspect of our three-fold nature that is created in the image and likeness of God. We are spirits, we have souls , and the spirit and our soul live in our physical earth suit ). .

* spirits are different from humans... is that very hard to understand, my friend?

"See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have."
Luke 24:39

* Christ Himself said that spirits don't have flesh and bones... so it will follow that, if humans have flesh and bones, then humans are NOT spirits... but humans HAVE spirits...

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Second, I have declared that Jesus is God not a "God." I don't mean that Jesus is the Father per se, I mean that He is the Second Person in the Godhead. The Godhead consists of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These Three (Persons) are one God. So it is accurate to say that the Father is God, Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. I have conveyed that these Three are co-equal in every way.

* if the Holy Spirit is God, the Bible should have said so, not you and your pre-concluded ideas...

"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."
Ephesians 4:30

* Saint Paul said that the Holy Spirit is OF God and NOT God...

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Third, I have stated that we are not saved by our good moral lives. Salvation is a gift. A gift cannot be earned because that is what a gift connotes. The only thing that you can do with a gift is accept it. The Bible has a lot to say about salvation being a gift and about it being something that cannot be earned. You simply need faith in Jesus Christ for salvation to be saved. Your good moral life should be a reflection of the change that has occurred on the inside of you (if you are saved). But your works will not ever save you. Faith and works don't save you. I have already explained what James 2:14-26 means.

* we are judged according to our works and speech, plain and simple in the Bible... faith ALONE cannot save you...

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
The Bible does not contradict itself and God is not the Author of confusion. For the Bible to say one thing in one or more verses but then say that exact opposite in other verses would constitute confusion. The Bible does not do that. l will end on this note.

* then compose yourself... your pre-concluded ideas contradict the Bible blatantly... wink

peejayd

Originally posted by Regret
"God is a Spirit" does not delimit the possibility of God having a physical form. Man is a spirit and man is a body, is he not? Or is the spirit of man in no manner a part of man? It is only interpretation that supports a conclusive stance on the subject, not the text of the Bible.

* God limits Himself...

"Every good endowment and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change."
James 1:17

* the Father cannot change Himself...

"Before the mountains were brought forth, and thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from eternity to eternity thou art God."
Psalms 90:2

* from eternity to eternity, God is God... wink

peejayd

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Atlantis001, this verse of Scripture does not mean that God has no shape. Moses is simply letting the children of Israel know that they saw no form of any kind the day the Lord spoke to them at Horeb out of the fire. Moses reminds them of this fact in an effort to deter them from creating an idol of God (for worship). Atlantis001 what you need to do is examine and consider the verse (or verses) that immediately precede and follow the verse that you read to get a better understanding of what that verse is talking about. In other words, you need to study the context i.e. surrounding verses of Scripture of a particular verse to fully understand what a given verse means.

I believe that the Bible reveals that God does have a shape and that His shape is the basis of our shape. We (human beings only, animals are not included) are created in the image and likeness of God. This is a reference to the spirit aspect of our three-fold nature. We are spirits, we have souls, and we live in a body. But this also includes the shape of our anatomy. Image and likeness is a reference to our three-fold nature and the anthropomorphic shape of our anatomy. So God is a Spirit, He has a soul, and He has an anthropomorphic shape or anatomy. In the Book of Exodus Moses describes that He, his brother Aaron, Aaron's sons Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel saw God's feet.

Exodus 24:10
and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity.

So from this passage of Scripture we can safely deduce that God has feet and feet are normally attached to an ankle which in turn is attached to a leg. Legs are held together by a pelvic girdle which is connected to a torso/abdomen area.

Exodus 33:20
But He said, �You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.�

Atlantis001, based on this verse of Scripture (there are others but I will just use this one) we can see that God has a face. A face is part of a head. A head has ears, eyes, a nose, a mouth, etc.

Exodus 33:22-23
So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by. Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen.�

God reveals to Moses that He has a hand, a back, and a face. This is proof positive that God has a shape and it dispels the fallacy that God is formless. What I believe that some people erroneously do is confuse the glory of God (which is relatively formless) with the shape or anatomy of God. God's glory is an expression of His magnificence, greatness, splendor, and beauty. God is so wonderful and sublime that glory, which has effulgence (i.e. radiant splendor and brilliance), emanates and issues from Him. The apostle John, who history records had been exiled to the island of Patmos in the Aegean Sea, relates in his experience that He saw a throne set in Heaven. John states that He Who sat on the throne was like a jasper and sardius stone in appearance.

Revelation 4:2-3
Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. And He who sat there was like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald.

We can infer from this passage of Scripture that John saw the Father God seated on His throne in Heaven. Thus far Atlantis 001 we have learned that God has a face, a back, a hand, and feet. This coincides with my belief (which is wholly based on Scripture and nothing else) that God has an anthropomorphic anatomy. We are created in God's image and likeness so that is why we bear the shape of God in terms of our anatomy (i.e. a face, back, hands, feet, etc.). I could go on detailing and expounding this subject but I am satisfied that I have shown from the Word of God that God does in fact have a body, but it is a "spiritual" body and not a physical body.

"Now when forty years had passed, an angel appeared to him in the wilderness of Mount Sinai, in a flame of fire in a bush."
Acts 7:30

* according to Saint Stephen, it was not God Himself who appeared in the eyes of the people in the Old Testament but an angel of God...

"No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known."
John 1:18

"Who alone has immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen."
I Timothy 6:16

* no human being ever saw the Father... wink

JesusIsAlive

Originally posted by peejayd
* spirits are different from humans... is that very hard to understand, my friend?

"See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have."
Luke 24:39

* Christ Himself said that spirits don't have flesh and bones... so it will follow that, if humans have flesh and bones, then humans are NOT spirits... but humans HAVE spirits...

* if the Holy Spirit is God, the Bible should have said so, not you and your pre-concluded ideas...

"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."
Ephesians 4:30

* Saint Paul said that the Holy Spirit is OF God and NOT God...

* we are judged according to our works and speech, plain and simple in the Bible... faith ALONE cannot save you...

* then compose yourself... your pre-concluded ideas contradict the Bible blatantly... wink

* spirits are different from humans... is that very hard to understand, my friend?

I surmise that what you are doing is confusing the spirit aspect of man's three-fold nature with his physical side. We are spirits but we inhabit physical bodies. This is what you miserably fail to grasp.

"See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have."
Luke 24:39

Jesus was talking about His physical body here after He had risen from the dead. But on the inside of Jesus' physical body is the real Jesus, a Spirit just like you, me, and everyone else. The spirit aspect of our three-fold nature is the life source as it were. Once the spirit and soul leaves the body, the body dies.

* Christ Himself said that spirits don't have flesh and bones... so it will follow that, if humans have flesh and bones, then humans are NOT spirits... but humans HAVE spirits...

Spirits don't have flesh and bones, but Jesus is not referring to the real Him, He is talking about His physcial body. Jesus is referrencing His physical body to impress upon the mind of his disciples that He has been physically resurrected from the dead so that they don't think that they are seeing a spirit of Jesus.

I don't know why this is so difficult for you to comprehend. We are spirits, we have souls, and we live in a physical body. Your body is not the real you, it is only the house that the inner man (i.e. the spirit, the real you) occupies, lives in, and takes up residence in.

* if the Holy Spirit is God, the Bible should have said so, not you and your pre-concluded ideas...

The Bible did say so but you denied, ignored, and refused to believe it when I showed you the Scriptures.

"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."
Ephesians 4:30

* Saint Paul said that the Holy Spirit is OF God and NOT God...

I have provided ample (way more than you needed) Scriptures that prove incontrovertibly that the Holy Spirit (i.e. the third Person of the Godhead) is God, but you choose not to believe this.

* we are judged according to our works and speech, plain and simple in the Bible... faith ALONE cannot save you...

You are sadly mistaken or deluded. Your works don't save you. I have provided more than enough Scriptures to validated this and once again you choose not to believe this either.

* then compose yourself... your pre-concluded ideas contradict the Bible blatantly... wink

I have no pre-concluded ideas. I support everything that I say with the Bible. I have been doing this since the inception of my posts here at KMC.

JesusIsAlive

Originally posted by peejayd
"Now when forty years had passed, an angel appeared to him in the wilderness of Mount Sinai, in a flame of fire in a bush."
Acts 7:30

* according to Saint Stephen, it was not God Himself who appeared in the eyes of the people in the Old Testament but an angel of God...

"No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known."
John 1:18

"Who alone has immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen."
I Timothy 6:16

* no human being ever saw the Father... wink

"Now when forty years had passed, an angel appeared to him in the wilderness of Mount Sinai, in a flame of fire in a bush."
Acts 7:30

* according to Saint Stephen, it was not God Himself who appeared in the eyes of the people in the Old Testament but an angel of God...

Man, you really need to just let go of your attempts at teaching the Bible because you don't have the Holy Spirit living on the inside of you to teach you. I can tell that you don't.

Eyes of the people? This is not talking about people seeing God. Stephen is recounting the incident where the Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses (not people) in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush.

"No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known."
John 1:18

There are people in Heaven right now who see God so the whole "no man has ever seen God" notion is false. What no man is able to see is the face of God because the glory of God is so bright (the apostle Paul refers to it as unapproachable light). No person can look upon God's face and live. You must understand that when God told Moses that he could not see Him and live, that He (i.e. God) was referring to His face.

"Who alone has immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen."
I Timothy 6:16

No person on this planet has ever seen the face of God, but there are those alive who have seen God.

* no human being ever saw the Father... wink

There are plenty of people on this planet who have seen God. But no person has ever seen God's face. The light that issues and radiates from the Father is so intense that no one can look upon God the Father's face and live. That is why the Lord God showed Moses, his brother Aaron, Aaron's sons Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel His feet. One one occasion God the Father showed Moses His back. The prophet Isaiah saw the Lord sitting on a throne high and lifted up, and the apostle John saw the Lord sitting on His throne as well. What these men did not see, however, was the face of God.

JesusIsAlive

error.

debbiejo

I must be on ignore lists......... sad

Alliance

EVERYONE is on JIAs ignore list.

debbiejo

JIA and Peejayd sitting in a tree K I S S I N G........FIRST comes marriage........oh, blah blah blah.........baby carriage.

JesusIsAlive

Originally posted by debbiejo
I must be on ignore lists......... sad

I have responded to one of your posts today. Check the Are Jesus and Muhammad (i.e. Mohammed) Alike? thread.

mahasattva

Originally posted by Regret
You do not believe that anyone can aid you in doing what you have difficulty doing, or find impossible to do yourself? Buddhists from what you have stated are rather arrogant individuals. Everyone should be aware of their shortcomings and allow others to aid them when possible and available. Expectation has nothing to do with it. If someone offers aid, you should allow them to do so, it will make the journey that much easier. Would you rather deny them the opportunity to act for the benefit of others?

Also, fact of this existence, people are not equal. Some people are more competant or capable than others in various aspects than others. Everyone can be aided by someone else.

Christianity teaches that faith without works is dead and that salvation is based on faith. Regardless of how you interpret the scripture you are not saved if the works are not present.

According to the Buddha, man himself is the maker of his own destiny. He has none to blame for his lot since he alone is responsible for his own life. He makes his own life for better or for worse.

The Buddha says: man creates everything. All our griefs, perils and misfortunes are of our own creation. We spring from no other source than our own imperfection of heart and mind. We are the results of our good and bad actions committed in the past under the influence of greed and delusion. And since we ourselves brought them into being, it is within our power to overcome bad effects and cultivate good natures. This is not arrogance. This is truly called the works of faith or strong confidence which plays an important part in every aspect of man's life.

Achieving salvation can be compared to curing a disease: if one is ill, one must go to a doctor. The doctor diagnose the ailment and prescribes medicine. The medicine must be taken by the person himself. He cannot depute someone else to take the medicine for him. No one can be cured by simply admiring the medicine or just praising the doctor for his good prescription.

In order to be cured, he himself must faithfully follow the instructions given by the doctor with regard to the manner and frequency in taking his medicine, his daily diet and other relevant medical restraints. Likewise, a person must follow the precepts, instructions or advice given by the Buddha (who gives prescriptions for liberation)by controlling or subduing one's greed, hatred and ignorance. No one can find salvation by simply singing praises of the Buddha or by making offerings to Him. The same argument for the Christians can one find salvation by simply honouring and praising Christ's name. This is not so.

Knowing that no external sources, no faith or rituals can save him, the Buddhist feels the need to rely on his own efforts. He gains confidence through self-reliance. He realizes that the whole responsibility of his present life as well as his future life depends completely on himself alone. Each must seek salvation for himself.

According to Shakyamuni Buddha: �If a person commits an act of good or evil, he him-self becomes the heir to that action. This is because that action actually never disappears (Udana).�

Once committed, any human action, whether good or bad, does not simply vanish into the past with time. Each act remains in one�s life at the present as a potential force or energy, influencing the course of one�s existence from the point of that action forward. In this sense, rather than simply viewing karma as �action,� it may be more appropriate to think of it as action plus that action�s potential influence on one�s life. Or, in simpler terms, karma may be seen as life�s ingrained habits, leanings or tendencies�actions that tend to repeat themselves, or that we tend to repeat.

Buddhism teaches of the eternal or unending nature of life as a cycle of birth and death. So when people speak of �past karma,� they really mean the present influence on one�s life of actions taken in the past (in past lives). Buddhism also teaches that actions (karma) can be either good or bad; good actions (good karma) give rise to happy, positive effects, and bad actions (bad karma) give rise to unhappy, negative effects.

Further, some actions yield specific results that will appear at a set time�this is known as fixed or immutable karma. Other actions yield results that are not set or specific in their nature or timing�this is non-fixed or mutable karma. Immutable karma is often used to describe a person�s life span, because the time of one�s death is viewed in Buddhism as fixed or set by the influence of past karma.

While human beings cannot avoid the results of their actions in past lives, Buddhism does not teach that we should simply resign ourselves to the effects of karma, be they good or bad. Submission to fate, to �one�s lot in life� or to some will outside our own is NOT a correct for Buddhist view . Rather, Buddhism is correctly understood as a forward-looking, empowering teaching that stresses personal responsibility and hope. �If I am the one who made myself what I am today, then I am the one who will create the �me� of the future,� is the ideal attitude of life and such for Buddhists.

Karma, then, does not so much apply to our circumstances as to our thoughts, words and deeds. Things do not happen to us, we make them happe or we act in a habitual way when they do happen that leads us to habitual situations. We made what we are and experience now, and we are at this moment making what we will be and experience in the future. That is karma. So to change karma means to change our lives right now; that is, the way we think, speak and do things. The best way to positively transform the effects of our past bad karma, enjoy the effects of past good karma, and create good karma for the future is to inform our actions with fresh life force and wisdom.

The Law of Karma, or causality, is far makes sense to modern man than the idea that everything and ultimately is up to god.

Alliance

Please. No babies in the forum.

peejayd

Originally posted by debbiejo
JIA and Peejayd sitting in a tree K I S S I N G........FIRST comes marriage........oh, blah blah blah.........baby carriage.

* you have a very weird sense of humor, my friend... wink

Regret

Originally posted by peejayd
* God limits Himself...

"Every good endowment and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change."
James 1:17

* the Father cannot change Himself...

"Before the mountains were brought forth, and thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from eternity to eternity thou art God."
Psalms 90:2

* from eternity to eternity, God is God... wink

Never does scripture state "God is only a Spirit", so no change occurs if he has a physical form.

Regret

Originally posted by mahasattva
According to... I will not respond further as you have ignored many of my statements and disregard them due to your preconceptions as to Christian belief, as well as your preconceptions as to the differences between Buddhism and Christianity. Yes, mainstream Christianity does have many of the flaws you cite, but the Bible does not necessitate these flaws, many Christians interpret these things in this manner, but such is not necessarily true given the text.

Yes, I believe many Buddhists must be arrogant, a belief I have taken from your posts.

I believe that there are a great many similarities between Christianity and Buddhism. I believe that you have an issue with an accurate comparison. Your preconceptions and your stubborn inability to accept that things are not always in line with your view of them is the only things that hold you back from properly understanding these things. Christianity has a broad range of beliefs as to the nature of the religion, your preconceptions are true for a majority of Christian beliefs, but not all Christian beliefs.

I believe you are in error. No one can achieve enlightenment alone, without the aid of others. Even the Buddha was unable to achieve enlightenment without the presence of others. Had the woman not saved him from drowning, he would not have come to an understanding of moderation. Had his father not attempted to keep him from death the sight of age, sickness, and death would have Had no impact on him. The Buddha never would have understood the import of the pillars Had others not acted upon him.

peejayd

Originally posted by Regret
Never does scripture state "God is only a Spirit", so no change occurs if he has a physical form.

* so, i will be the one to say it - God is ONLY a spirit... in John 4:24, Christ revealed that the Father is a spirit... in Psalms 90:2, from eternity to eternity, God is still God, God is a spirit from eternity to eternity... and in James 1:17, God will not change, the proclamations are pretty absolute, my friend... wink

peejayd

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I surmise that what you are doing is confusing the spirit aspect of man's three-fold nature with his physical side. We are spirits but we inhabit physical bodies. This is what you miserably fail to grasp.

* i believe what is written in the Bible, human beings have a body, spirit and soul... soul, being the totality of a human being, can be both physical and spiritual... never did the Bible tells us that human beings are spirits because Jesus says spirits do not have flesh and bones... since human beings have flesh and bones, human beings are not spirits... if you believe in man's three-fold nature, you will not say that human beings are spirits, it is unsound and illogical and most of all, unbiblical...

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Jesus was talking about His physical body here after He had risen from the dead. But on the inside of Jesus' physical body is the real Jesus, a Spirit just like you, me, and everyone else. The spirit aspect of our three-fold nature is the life source as it were. Once the spirit and soul leaves the body, the body dies.

* of course, Jesus was talking about His physical body... Jesus' physical body is human, FYI... and what did Jesus told His disciples about His human body? it is not spirit... can't you understand that?

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Spirits don't have flesh and bones, but Jesus is not referring to the real Him, He is talking about His physcial body. Jesus is referrencing His physical body to impress upon the mind of his disciples that He has been physically resurrected from the dead so that they don't think that they are seeing a spirit of Jesus.

* oh my goodness... you are very stubborn... of course, Jesus was talking about His physical body... Jesus' physical body is human, FYI... and what did Jesus told His disciples about His human body? it is not spirit... can't you understand that?

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I don't know why this is so difficult for you to comprehend. We are spirits, we have souls, and we live in a physical body. Your body is not the real you, it is only the house that the inner man (i.e. the spirit, the real you) occupies, lives in, and takes up residence in.

* my body is not the real me... a blatant misinterpretation... care to tell it to Adam?

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
Genesis 2:7

* the first human being was formed by God from the dust of ground... even Job understood this and see how he repented...

"Therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes."
Job 42:6

* if you believe in man's three-fold nature, do not exclude the physical body...

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
The Bible did say so but you denied, ignored, and refused to believe it when I showed you the Scriptures.

* the story of Ananias and Sapphira... you showed great blatant self-conclusions there... Acts 5:3-4 never tells us that the Holy Spirit is God...

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I have provided ample (way more than you needed) Scriptures that prove incontrovertibly that the Holy Spirit (i.e. the third Person of the Godhead) is God, but you choose not to believe this.

* first off, you gave the verse, but the verse did not say anything like your conclusion... next, you cannot refute the fact in Ephesians 4:30 that the Holy Spirit is of God... and NOT God...

* you cannot even answer my question, the Bible commanded to worship God... the Father and Christ are both Gods and the Bible revealed both of them should be worshipped... but the Bible never tells us to worship the Holy Spirit, wonder why?

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
You are sadly mistaken or deluded. Your works don't save you. I have provided more than enough Scriptures to validated this and once again you choose not to believe this either.

* hypocrite... you are like a Jew in Jesus' time... the Scriptures tells us on what basis we shall be judged...

"I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter;
For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
Matthew 12:36-37

"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.
And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done."
Revelation 20:12-13

* God is not unrighteous and not unjust to overlook these things...

"For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do."
Hebrews 6:10

* i just hope you realize that...

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I have no pre-concluded ideas. I support everything that I say with the Bible. I have been doing this since the inception of my posts here at KMC.

* you can tell it to the marines...

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Man, you really need to just let go of your attempts at teaching the Bible because you don't have the Holy Spirit living on the inside of you to teach you. I can tell that you don't.

* oh really? don't make me laugh...

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Eyes of the people? This is not talking about people seeing God. Stephen is recounting the incident where the Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses (not people) in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush.

* if you have enough logic left in you, this revelation of Saint Stephen is very essential to prove the accuracy of the statement made by Christ - no man has ever seen God, at ANY time...

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
There are people in Heaven right now who see God so the whole "no man has ever seen God" notion is false. What no man is able to see is the face of God because the glory of God is so bright (the apostle Paul refers to it as unapproachable light). No person can look upon God's face and live. You must understand that when God told Moses that he could not see Him and live, that He (i.e. God) was referring to His face.

* are you an anti-Christ? you are blatantly contradicting Christ's statements...

"No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man."
John 3:13

* oh my...

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
No person on this planet has ever seen the face of God, but there are those alive who have seen God.

"And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."
Genesis 32:30

* the people of God in the Old Testament knows they have seen God, even God's face... but it was not true, what they have seen was an angel...

"He was still speaking, when lo, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him."
Matthew 17:5

* the Father said that we should listen to Christ, and Christ said that no man has ever seen God at any time and no man had ascended in heaven, only Christ Himself...

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
There are plenty of people on this planet who have seen God. But no person has ever seen God's face. The light that issues and radiates from the Father is so intense that no one can look upon God the Father's face and live. That is why the Lord God showed Moses, his brother Aaron, Aaron's sons Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel His feet. One one occasion God the Father showed Moses His back. The prophet Isaiah saw the Lord sitting on a throne high and lifted up, and the apostle John saw the Lord sitting on His throne as well. What these men did not see, however, was the face of God.

* you blatantly contradict Christ's statement... the people in the Old Testament saw an angel of God and NOT God Himself...

"Who alone has immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen."
I Timothy 6:16

"He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation;"
Colossians 1:15

* you also contradict the teachings of Saint Paul... wink

Regret

Originally posted by peejayd
* so, i will be the one to say it - God is ONLY a spirit... Which is the crux, you and those claiming such an interpretation are the ones saying it, not the Bible.

JesusIsAlive

* i believe what is written in the Bible, human beings have a body, spirit and soul... soul, being the totality of a human being, can be both physical and spiritual... never did the Bible tells us that human beings are spirits because Jesus says spirits do not have flesh and bones... since human beings have flesh and bones, human beings are not spirits... if you believe in man's three-fold nature, you will not say that human beings are spirits, it is unsound and illogical and most of all, unbiblical...

Peejayd, why do you not understand the Bible? Because you are not able to listen to the Word of God. I do not believe that you are a child of God peejayd. I think that this is why there is such a spiritual deficiency in terms of your ability to comprehend what I am telling you. I have never in all of my life had to keep reiterating the same information over and over and over to someone and then that person still reply to me with the same fallacious, erroneous, statements. Peejayd get born again then you will understand what I am talking about. Because at the moment we are on two separate wavelengths. Using radio transmission to illustrate my point it is as you are on AM and I am on FM. You cannot hear and understand a broadcast on both bands at the same time, on the same radio. You must have your setting on either FM or AM. Similarly, it is like I am on FM and you are on AM and we are both trying to communicate, hear, and understand each other. I am born again and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, but you are not born again nor are you indwelt by the Holy Spirit. However, the difference is I understand what your problem is but you cannot see it. I am on the outside looking in at you. I see all your issues, difficulties, and hang ups with respect to understanding the Bible. What I say does not make sense to you because you are not born again. How many times I have stated that you are a spirit, you have a soul, and you (the real you which is a spirit) lives in a body? I have told you this for months and yet you still say inane things like,

"...never did the Bible tells us that human beings are spirits because Jesus says spirits do not have flesh and bones... since human beings have flesh and bones, human beings are not spirits... if you believe in man's three-fold nature, you will not say that human beings are spirits...."

I already explained to you countless times why Jesus said that a spirit does not have flesh and bones--because spirits are not composed of flesh. But Jesus drew His disciples attention to the fact that He (i.e. His physical body) had been resurrected so that they would not thing that they were seeing Jesus' Spirit. Spirit's do not have flesh and bones peejayd, I know this for the umpteenth time. The human body is inhabited by the spirit and soul peejayd, this is what gives life to the physical body. A body can have blood but without the spirit and soul it is dead. You are a spirit and the real you presently dwells inside of your body along with the soul. This is all there is to it. Why are you incapable of comprehending this? I believe it is because you are not born again. You are just as unregenerate as Nicodemus. Jesus told Nicodemus that unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus was not born again so he was not capable (just like you peejayd) of understanding the spiritual import of what Jesus meant by being born again. So automatically (almost as if by default) Nicodemus's mind begin to try and grasp or interpret what Jesus said to him from a natural point of view. This is exactly what you do every time I mention spiritual things to you. Here Nicodemus' response to Jesus was,

John 3:4
Nicodemus said to Him, �How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother�s womb and be born?�

Jesus was talking about being born again "spiritually" but Nicodemus (who I think represents you in terms of your inability to comprehend spiritual things) started to relate what Jesus said and meant in "natural" terms. Jesus expounded what He meant by being born again to Nicodemus. Here it is,

John 3:5-8
5 Jesus answered, �Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, �You must be born again.� 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.�

Jesus just got done elucidating and explaining what He meant by being born again and here is what Nicodemus said in response:

John 3:9-10
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, �How can these things be?�
10 Jesus answered and said to him, �Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?

The man was just like you are now peejayd: unregenerate and in need of being born again. This is why you can't comprehend what I teach as plain as I make it, you still don't get it. I submit to you that this is the problem.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I have quoted this Scripture to you before peejayd. Your complete nature is three-fold. You are a spirit (this is the part of you that is created in the image and likeness of God), you have a soul (which is your mind, will, emotions, and personality), and you live in a body.

* of course, Jesus was talking about His physical body... Jesus' physical body is human, FYI... and what did Jesus told His disciples about His human body? it is not spirit... can't you understand that?

I am going to talk to you just like Jesus talked to Nicodemus since you share his incapacity (spiritually speaking).

John 3:5-8
5 Jesus answered, �Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, �You must be born again.� 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.�

Of course I understand that Jesus physical body is not spirit. But when Jesus said that a spirit does not have flesh and bones, He was referring specifically to His physical body. He was not trying convey to His disciples anything other than this fact so that they would not be think that they were seeing a spirit. But if Jesus were on the subject of man's complete nature then He would have told them thaty He was a Spirit, that He had a soul, and that the two inhabit His physical body.

* oh my goodness... you are very stubborn... of course, Jesus was talking about His physical body... Jesus' physical body is human, FYI... and what did Jesus told His disciples about His human body? it is not spirit... can't you understand that?

I just answered that in the above paragraph.

* my body is not the real me... a blatant misinterpretation... care to tell it to Adam?

Peejayd, when Jesus died on the cross the Bible states that His soul was not left in Hades. Jesus Christ body was physically in the rich man's brand new tomb. But His spirit and soul was in Hades (i.e. Hell). The real Jesus is a Spirit, but in order to live on this planet, Jesus needed a physical body. Jesus needed a physical body so that He could offer it up as a Lamb without spot or blemish, for our salvation from sin. The Bible states that the wages of sin is death (first spiritual then physical). Can you see this now? I don't expect you to understand this until you get born again.

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
Genesis 2:7

* the first human being was formed by God from the dust of ground... even Job understood this and see how he repented...

"Therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes."
Job 42:6

* if you believe in man's three-fold nature, do not exclude the physical body...

What on God' green earth gave you the impression that I have excluded 1/3 of man's three-fold nature? I have been telling you since time immemorial that we are spirits, we have a soul, and we live in a physical body. I think what trips you up is the fact that I list the spirit aspect (which is 1/3 of man's total nature) first, and then I mention the body last. I do this because that is the order that the Bible listed them in 1 Thessalonians 5:23. But I know and recognize that while I am typing this post right this minute that I am sitting here in my physical body. But I do not say that I am a physical body, because I am a spirit, I (the real me, the inner man) just live in a physical body. I can contact my earthly environment around me in my body (because that is what the physical body is for). But if I should die before Jesus Christ catches away His church, then my spirit (the real me) and soul (i.e. mind, will, emotions, and personality) will separate/depart from my physical body and be escorted by the angels of God into Heaven. But my physical body will be placed into a coffin (or cremated) and place into to the ground for burial.

JesusIsAlive

Can you see this now?

* the story of Ananias and Sapphira... you showed great blatant self-conclusions there... Acts 5:3-4 never tells us that the Holy Spirit is God...

The Holy Spirit is God and yes that verse does state that the Holy Spirit is God. I have said once before peejayd that the apostle Peter did not have to even mention the Holy Spirit. Peter could have simply said,

Acts 5:3-4
�Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to God and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.�

Can you see this JesusIsAlive version of Acts 5:3-4? I omitted the Name, "Holy Spirit" in His place inserted the word "God" so that you could see that this is all Peter would have had to do. But Peter didn't do that. I have told you this once before peejayd that God the Father has given us so many clues in His Word about Himself, the Lord Jesus, the Holy Spirit, Heaven, Hell, and just the things of God in general. God intends for us to study His Word so that we can put all of this clues together to get the complete revelation that He wants us to have. One such clue is the fact that Peter told Ananias satan had filled his heart to lie to the Holy Spirit. Then in the conclusion of his statement to Ananias Peter revealed that Ananias had not lied to men but to God. But I thought that he lied to the Holy Spirit? Peejayd, the Holy Spirit is God. smile

God is one but manifested as Father, Son, Holy Spirit. For the umpteenth time that's Who God is: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. This is Who God is. Well what is God? God is a Spirit.

* first off, you gave the verse, but the verse did not say anything like your conclusion... next, you cannot refute the fact in Ephesians 4:30 that the Holy Spirit is of God... and NOT God...

I don't need to because the Holy Spirit is God. Here check out this link:

http://www.theholyspirit.com/HolySpiritPerson.asp

http://www.theholyspirit.com/faq1/default.asp?c=19

http://www.theholyspirit.com/HolySpiritTrinity.asp

* you cannot even answer my question, the Bible commanded to worship God... the Father and Christ are both Gods and the Bible revealed both of them should be worshipped... but the Bible never tells us to worship the Holy Spirit, wonder why?

No the Father and the Son Jesus are not "Gods" they are one God peejayd. They are Persons Who constitute one God not Gods. This is polytheism. The Father, Son Jesus, and Holy Spirit are not Gods either, they are God--one God--but manifested as three divine Persons.

but the Bible never tells us to worship the Holy Spirit, wonder why?

This is a moot question. The Holy Spirit is God and we are instructed to worship God. No one can even say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

* hypocrite... you are like a Jew in Jesus' time... the Scriptures tells us on what basis we shall be judged...

"I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter;
For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
Matthew 12:36-37

"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.
And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done."
Revelation 20:12-13

* God is not unrighteous and not unjust to overlook these things...

"For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do."
Hebrews 6:10

* i just hope you realize that...

You are taking Scriptures out of context. And I notice that you use Scriptures that I furnished first in an effort to bolster your argument. But you are not using the Scriptures appropriately to support your case. The Bible talks about God not being unjust to forget our work and labor love which we have shown toward His Name, in that we have ministered to the saints and do minister. The Lord reveals this to us to encourage us to keep on keeping on. This does not have any thing at all to do with the Judgment described in Revelation 20:12-13. This Judgment in Revelation is for those who do not know Jesus Christ (i.e. those who are not saved). Their deeds have been recorded in books and those books will be opened at the Judgment as a means whereby God will judge those whose names have not been written in the Lamb's Book of Life. This Judgment hasn't got a thing in the world to do with receiving rewards from God. This Judgment is strictly for sinners/unbelievers.

Now, on the subject of works let me expound this for you. Once we have confessed Jesus Christ as Lord at that moment we are saved. Every work that we do from that moment forward is either a reward or a loss of reward. Our works have absolutely nothing to do with our salvation once we are saved. On the other hand, if we are not saved then our works will be used to commensurately determine our degree of punishment in the lake of fire in proportion to our works or sins.

* you can tell it to the marines...

It is the truth.

* oh really? don't make me laugh...

Yes, really, you don't have the Holy Spirit living on the inside of you if you did you would have no problem understanding what I say. Furthermore, any person who is genuinely saved knows that the Holy Spirit is living on the inside of them and have no problem admitting this. You can't admit this because you are not saved.

* if you have enough logic left in you, this revelation of Saint Stephen is very essential to prove the accuracy of the statement made by Christ - no man has ever seen God, at ANY time...

Exodus 33:20, 23
But He said, �You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.�

Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen.�

God equates seeing His face with seeing Him. So when God says that no man can see Him and live you must revert to the premise that God refers to as He qualifies what He means by seeing Him. He is talking about His face. If just seeing God was lethal then God would not have had to say anything about seeing His face (which He mentions twice).

Isaiah 6:1-4
1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple. 2 Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one cried to another and said:

� Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts;
The whole earth is full of His glory!�

4 And the posts of the door were shaken by the voice of him who cried out, and the house was filled with smoke.

Isaiah the prophet saw the Lord, but I do not believe that He saw the Lord's face.

Ezekiel 1:27-28
26 And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it.
27 Also from the appearance of His waist and upward I saw, as it were, the color of amber with the appearance of fire all around within it; and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw, as it were, the appearance of fire with brightness all around. 28 Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD.

Ezekiel saw the Lord and His glory, but I he did not see His face.

Daniel 7:9-14
9 � I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated,
And the books were opened.

11 �I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
13 � I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

JesusIsAlive

Daniel the prophet Saw the Lord Jesus and the Father God. But I do not believe that He saw their faces.

* are you an anti-Christ? you are blatantly contradicting Christ's statements...

No I am saved, sanctified, filled with Holy Spirit, and on my way to Heaven. A true believer has no trouble admitting this. Can you say this with confidence? No, you cannot because you do not belong to Christ. But you can.

"No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man."
John 3:13

* oh my...

Adam, Eve, Noah, Abraham, Enoch, Elijah, and all of the other Old Testament people of God are in Heaven right now.

"And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."
Genesis 32:30

* the people of God in the Old Testament knows they have seen God, even God's face... but it was not true, what they have seen was an angel...

I already said that no man can see God's face and live.

"He was still speaking, when lo, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him."
Matthew 17:5

* the Father said that we should listen to Christ, and Christ said that no man has ever seen God at any time and no man had ascended in heaven, only Christ Himself...

No man has seen God meaning God's face. I already qualified what this means.

* you blatantly contradict Christ's statement... the people in the Old Testament saw an angel of God and NOT God Himself...

None of the people that I mentioned (in the verses that I quoted) saw an angel on those particular occasions, they saw God. They either saw His feet, hands, back, or glory but never His face.

"Who alone has immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen."
I Timothy 6:16

"He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation;"
Colossians 1:15

* you also contradict the teachings of Saint Paul... wink

Jesus Christ is the physical image (or expression/manifestation) of the invisible God (God is a Spirit and spirits are invisible to the naked eye. God is a Spirit and He lives in the spirit world, thus relative to us He is invisible. We are only able to see God or things that are in the spirit world if God permits us to. Elisha the prophet (Elijah's successor) prayed for God to open his servants eyes once. God did it and the servant saw horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.

2 Kings 6:15-17
15 And when the servant of the man of God arose early and went out, there was an army, surrounding the city with horses and chariots. And his servant said to him, �Alas, my master! What shall we do?�
16 So he answered, �Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them.� 17 And Elisha prayed, and said, �LORD, I pray, open his eyes that he may see.� Then the LORD opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.

The Lord God could permit and enable us to see Him in a vision as He did with Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Daniel among others. Furthermore, the Lord could even take us to Heaven like He did with Enoch, Elijah, and the apostle Paul. Paul saw God but Paul did not see the Lord's face because the light was too bright. That is why Paul states that God dwells in unapproachable light.

Imperial_Samura

Originally posted by debbiejo
JIA and Peejayd sitting in a tree K I S S I N G........FIRST comes marriage........oh, blah blah blah.........baby carriage.

How that could occur in the middle of a schism I don't know.

And sigh - why have you started posting like Marcello JIA? Regardless of ones religious standing at least you posts were contained before.

JesusIsAlive

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
How that could occur in the middle of a schism I don't know.

And sigh - why have you started posting like Marcello JIA? Regardless of ones religious standing at least you posts were contained before.

I don't have enough time to copy and past each of peejayd's statments. It is just easier to respond to his post within his quote. I have done the same thing with recently with your posts pal. How are you doing by the way?

peejayd

Originally posted by Regret
Which is the crux, you and those claiming such an interpretation are the ones saying it, not the Bible.

* even if i did say it, it is also Biblical... the Bible says God is a spirit (John 4:24), He is God from eternity to eternity (Psalms 90:2) and He cannot change (James 1:17)... i really am astounded that you cannot accept that fact...

* the one spewing unbiblical doctrines is you, my friend... nowhere in the Bible that God is not a spirit and can change or have a physical body... if so, prove it according to the Bible... wink

peejayd

* oh my... another long, boring and irrelevant posts...

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive Peejayd, why do you not understand the Bible? Because you are not able to listen to the Word of God. I do not believe that you are a child of God peejayd. I think that this is why there is such a spiritual deficiency in terms of your ability to comprehend what I am telling you. I have never in all of my life had to keep reiterating the same information over and over and over to someone and then that person still reply to me with the same fallacious, erroneous, statements. Peejayd get born again then you will understand what I am talking about. Because at the moment we are on two separate wavelengths. Using radio transmission to illustrate my point it is as you are on AM and I am on FM. You cannot hear and understand a broadcast on both bands at the same time, on the same radio. You must have your setting on either FM or AM. Similarly, it is like I am on FM and you are on AM and we are both trying to communicate, hear, and understand each other. I am born again and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, but you are not born again nor are you indwelt by the Holy Spirit. However, the difference is I understand what your problem is but you cannot see it. I am on the outside looking in at you. I see all your issues, difficulties, and hang ups with respect to understanding the Bible. What I say does not make sense to you because you are not born again. How many times I have stated that you are a spirit, you have a soul, and you (the real you which is a spirit) lives in a body? I have told you this for months and yet you still say inane things like,

* you, my friend, are exposing your true colors - a hypocrite... just because you cannot refute the clear fact i post, you spew stupid things like i'm not born again, i'm not indwelt by the Holy Spirit, etc... you think you're perfect? heck, just refute my post! stop getting personal... we are discussing the our beliefs and here you are always getting personal... you know what? i believe, in the manner you reply to my posts, you are the one not indwelt by the Holy Spirit... you are blinded by the unbiblical doctrines you worship...

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive I already explained to you countless times why Jesus said that a spirit does not have flesh and bones--because spirits are not composed of flesh. But Jesus drew His disciples attention to the fact that He (i.e. His physical body) had been resurrected so that they would not thing that they were seeing Jesus' Spirit. Spirit's do not have flesh and bones peejayd, I know this for the umpteenth time. The human body is inhabited by the spirit and soul peejayd, this is what gives life to the physical body. A body can have blood but without the spirit and soul it is dead. You are a spirit and the real you presently dwells inside of your body along with the soul. This is all there is to it. Why are you incapable of comprehending this? I believe it is because you are not born again. You are just as unregenerate as Nicodemus. Jesus told Nicodemus that unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus was not born again so he was not capable (just like you peejayd) of understanding the spiritual import of what Jesus meant by being born again. So automatically (almost as if by default) Nicodemus's mind begin to try and grasp or interpret what Jesus said to him from a natural point of view. This is exactly what you do every time I mention spiritual things to you. Here Nicodemus' response to Jesus was,

* you are way out of the logic's line, kiddo... read my posts very carefully, try to reach that fake spirit in you... the resurrection of Jesus is physical, and the one that died and resurrected was the body of Jesus...

"And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
Hebrews 10:10

* and because of that, Jesus clearly says a spirit does not have flesh and bones like the one the apostles are seeing... and what did the apostles saw? the physical body of Jesus... read Luke 24:39... now, humans have flesh and bones and since humans have this, humans are NOT spirits... if you have enough knowledge and wisdom given by your fake "holy" spirit, then i hope you understand the simple fact i was trying to tell you... your belief is stupid and stubborn...

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive Of course I understand that Jesus physical body is not spirit.

* bingo! you hypocrite... that's my point and yet you still cling to your stupid stubborn belief? sheesh... hypocrites... sigh...

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive But when Jesus said that a spirit does not have flesh and bones, He was referring specifically to His physical body. He was not trying convey to His disciples anything other than this fact so that they would not be think that they were seeing a spirit. But if Jesus were on the subject of man's co