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Plo in his prime. Anything goes. Gets full rest between battles. Assume that if no specification is given for the combatents in the gauntlet assume it's them in their primes.
1. TPM Kenobi
2. Jango Fett
3. Jastus Farr
4. Kit Fisto
5. Luminara Unduli
6. Sora Bulq
7. Cin Drallig
8. ROTS Kenobi
9. ROTS Dooku
10. Makes it

He makes it up to Drallig or Undui, then dies.

I say he beats Kenobi pretty easily, Jango's nearly as easy, Jastus lasts a little while. Kit lasts at least a minute, probably a minute and a half. Luminara will give him a very nice fight, with sabers it's likely even but Plo's ahead with the Force I think so he wins after a real long duel. Then Cin takes him cause Cin can take EU Grievous and I seriously doubt Plo can. But he lasts a long time. Against Kenobi he's lose for sure after a pretty long duel, and Dooku would beat him without to much trouble, he'd last a little over a minute (Anakin in AOTC lasted like 55 seconds, so).

I say he makes it to four.

He gets to Dooku and dies.

What makes you think he'll take Kenobi?

Jango kills him

Originally posted by darthsith19
What makes you think he'll take Kenobi?
Because all of Obi-Wan's victories are so because of luck.

Jango unless it takes place in a favorable setting for Plo.

Plo could just zap Jango with his Electric Judgement.

Or Jango could fly away.

Hmm, lets see, lightning moves fast enough that it would still hit his legs as he flies up at the very least. And then Plo would block att of Jango's blaster fire. I see nothing Jango could do to beat Plo. Plo could Force Choke him.

... And Yoda popped Dookus head like a zit, right? He's a Jedi, he wouldn't force choke someone. If they are close when they start off, Plo could bedazzle Jango with electricity, and while Jango is disoriented with pain, Plo could chop him down. If they started a reasonable distance apart, though, Jango would fly up, and, assuming that it's not a flat plain of some kind, have an advantage. It would be a close fight, and I see Jango winning after a long time. He did well against Kenobi, who was a practitioner of Form III.

It could go either, way, though. What accomplishments does Plo have under his belt?

Originally posted by darthsith19
Hmm, lets see, lightning moves fast enough that it would still hit his legs as he flies up at the very least. And then Plo would block att of Jango's blaster fire. I see nothing Jango could do to beat Plo. Plo could Force Choke him.



Does lightning even work on Jango's armor?

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
He makes it up to Drallig or Undui, then dies.


Yeah...I'd have to agree with that...

Originally posted by jollyjim311
... And Yoda popped Dookus head like a zit, right? He's a Jedi, he wouldn't force choke someone. If they are close when they start off, Plo could bedazzle Jango with electricity, and while Jango is disoriented with pain, Plo could chop him down. If they started a reasonable distance apart, though, Jango would fly up, and, assuming that it's not a flat plain of some kind, have an advantage. It would be a close fight, and I see Jango winning after a long time. He did well against Kenobi, who was a practitioner of Form III.

It could go either, way, though. What accomplishments does Plo have under his belt?


Plo could Force Jump up to Jango and carve him open like a Thanksgiving Turkey...

His Djem So would offer ample protection against Jango's blaster bolts...

thats why OB1 did just a great job right?

Actually, Plo Koon is better than AOTC Obi-Wan Kenobi by a good deal. We say Kenobi about several monthes into the CW and being on par with Fisto, who's definately worser than Koon.

You know Darth, you should post that in the recent EU thread I just made: "Can Plo Koon use Electric Judgment and his other abilities". You can start it really well.

He gets curbstomped right off the bat as Kenobi owns him.

So Plo > Jinn in hid prime > TPM Jinn > TPM Kenobi who somehow curbstomps Plo? Wow, that's messed up.

Well TPM Kenobi isn't that bad.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Well TPM Kenobi isn't that bad.
No, he isn't, but he's no where near the level of the sixth strongest Jedi in the ROTS Order (4th or 5th strongest in TPM Order ).

Originally posted by darthsith19
and while Kenobi utalizes Soresu, Plo uses Shien/Djem So, which is the form that excels at deflecting blaster bolts back at the person who fired them, so if lightning didn't work Plo could just as easily deflect a bolt back at Jango.

Plo Koon uses Djem So? Ahem, but since when? As far as I know, no actual source states he is a practitioner of Djem So, but provide an actual quote please as I know the rest of what you copied was like, straight from wiki, lol - which obviously gives no direct source.

No direct source, but due to his saber moves from it is thought that he uses Shien/Djem So.

Awesome...Anakin and Obi-Wan must both use the same exact form because they use identical moves in Star Wars: Battlefront 2!

Except nothing contradictc what we see in Jedi Power Battles and several sources contradict Battlefront 2.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Except nothing contradictc what we see in Jedi Power Battles and several sources contradict Battlefront 2.

Except video games are not a source to go by in terms of game movements and the like, which is the main point that apparently flew over your head (point would be how every form in KOTOR does the same thing practically). Anyways, you cannot state Plo Koon uses Djem So simply because a game from six years ago shows "slow, power" movements or whatever the hell you are purely speculating on.

No direct source, and a video game that was created before lightsaber forms were mainly introduced (2002) is your evidence? That's far from sufficient evidence to even begin to deduct from, let alone to state as fact like you did and then use it as an argument.

The game is all we have on Plo's saber form, there's nor eason why we should not be able to use it. Last time I checked Video Games were a part of the Star Wars Universe and are therefor canon as long as they are not contradicted by a higher source, as is the case with Battlefront 2.

Originally posted by darthsith19
The game is all we have on Plo's saber form, there's nor eason why we should not be able to use it. Last time I checked Video Games were a part of the Star Wars Universe and are therefor canon as long as they are not contradicted by a higher source, as is the case with Battlefront 2.

Last time I checked, game elements like movements were hardly "canon". The fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter what the game shows, because there's no direct evidence nor anything remotely close backing it up.

By your logic, I can claim that Exar Kun uses Djem So as fact, and so does Ulic...and for that matter, Vodo must use Soresu. But then I think about and say to myself, "Damn, Advent, I'm purely speculating. Wouldn't it be sheer idiocy to try and use it as an argument?". Of course, the answer is yes.

There is a reason for why we shouldn't use it, and it's a simple one at that: it's game movements from a video game six years ago. There's no definitive answer that says Plo Koon uses Djem So, for all you know he's a Juyo practitioner, or maybe he uses Ataru like Qui-Gon Jinn does (slow, not fast, seemingly powerful swings).

So, as it seems, your argument about Plo Koon's lightsaber form is faulty as I would suspect. So, please do not state anything about Plo Koon's form as fact, even more do not state that "there's no reason" because I can think of ten (err...less) that would put doubt on it, and call it into question.

Hey, nothing contradicts that Vodo wasn't the "grandmaster" or equivalent of during the Old Republic times, nothing also contradicts that Odan wasn't the most powerful Force using Jedi after Exar Kun and Ulic turned, so it must be so. That's sure some spectaculizzle logicizzle. Although the analogy isn't perfect (give me some time, I'll cook up a new one), you should get the point. Just because it isn't contradicted, doesn't mean it is so - especially with the ridiculous source you're using.

Anyways, screw what I wrote above, because the point is: you cannot state as fact, nor use as an argument that Plo Koon uses Djem So because it "seems like" he does based on a PS1/Dreamcast video game movement.

Unless you can provide proof that says video games arn't canon shut it.

And if it was only one month old would it be more canon? If the answer is no, then why do you keep[ bringing up how old it is? And I want a source saying video games arn't canon.

If there was a video game that showed Vodo on the Council being the clear leader then yes, I would say he's the grandmaster.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Unless you can provide proof that says video games arn't canon shut it.

Obviously your spectacles need to be equipped for this one:

Originally posted by Advent
Last time I checked, game elements like movements were hardly "canon".

Game elements have always been non-canon, read our canon policy, pal. It'd actually be your job to show me where it says that video game movements are canon, not the other way around. By the fact nearly every video game produced does not accurately portray lightsaber movements (even ones created after 2002) is proof enough for my side.

And there's really nothing to "shut", except you up.



Obviously you've missed the point yet again (no surprise right thurr ), a game that was made two years before lightsaber forms were even introduced is hardly a source to go by. And while I'd agree that even though forms weren't around really when say, Ep. VI was made - it's the pure fact that you're using video game movements that do not specify what form the player is using.



Originally posted by Advent
Last time I checked, game elements like movements were hardly "canon".

^
And the source saying that would be: obvious. Since when have video game movements ever been considered canonical?

Short answer: Never, it's common knowledge. Especially when forms vary in their movesets from game to game.



If there was an actual source that said Plo Koon uses Form V, then yes I would say he uses Form V. It's a simple response.

Again I ask, why is it that I can't claim Plo Koon uses Ataru in the manner that a one Qui-Gon Jinn does (slow, not fast or flashy), but you can claim as fact that Plo Koon uses Djem So?

As I see you seem to have "skipped" over the majority of my post, I'll say it again: by your twisted logic, I'd be able to state that Exar Kun uses Djem So, and Ulic, too, as well judging by what we've seen of Vodo (and his stick) he must be a Soresu practitioner. And I'd also be able to use this as an argument.

But then, like I said, I come to the realization that there's nothing majorly supporting those assumptions (and that's what they are - assumptions, NOT FACT - something you clearly cannot differentiate between).

I'm sorry, DS, but your argument about Plo Koon is far from being able to state as fact, it's faulty logic to make the claim you are based off a video game. Especially what we know about the movements, and how they are usually incorrectly portrayed. And I'm going to assume that you've never actually seen Plo Koon in Jedi Power Battles, but are only going by what you've read fans have *speculated* on wiki. So, perhaps those "fans" are wrong, perhaps they are right, either way JPB's movements are not a source to use an argument due to the fact that video games rarely get forms correct, and the fact that there's several other explanation as to why he is slow and/or uses power swings or whatever (like I said before, QGJ moves similarly to the description fans have given).

Okay, so it is your opinion that video games are considered non canon. How is it my job to provide proof, you're the one who just came out of nowhere and started syaing something that has been used for canon since I've been here isn't canon. So then Nihilus isn't canon, eitehr I take it, and neitehr are Traya, Sion, The Exile, Desaan or Malak, huh? But, if you must insist: C-canon is "continuity" canon, consisting of all recent works (and many older works) released under the name of Star Wars: books, comics, games, cartoons, non-theatrical films, and more. - Star Wars Insider

Does it matter? Tell me, then, when were the saber forms created?

Well, there's thread that contain video game only characters on the last page of the vs. thread, so.

Watch TPM again. Qui-Gon moves his lightsaber fast and his blows are light. Sure their not as fast as Yoda's but they are fast, clearly Ataru.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Okay, so it is your opinion that video games are considered non canon.

Can you like, not misinterpret my statements anymore? Is it possible? Because:

Originally posted by Advent
Last time I checked, game elements like movements were hardly "canon".

Now, do you want to go get the Hubble Space Telescope or what?

I've stated specifically that video game movements (which, in the context I'm using it in means "move sets" for those who are incapable of grasping that simple fact) are not canon. They have never been considered canonical unless it's a Force power depicted in another source or whatever. And when I say "game elements", I really mean my main point, which was move sets - are non-canon.

I've never stated video games are non-canon, the background stories and cutscenes are, but how a character moves is not, likewise what level you reach, what forms you would pick (for KOTOR/JA/JO/etc.) are not. Just to echo myself, so as I make myself clear.



No, you're the one that has been constantly misinterpreting my statement. If you've ever looked at my beautiful posting history, I've argued for/against video game characters (Kyle Katarn, for example) - I wouldn't be arguing for/against them if they were considered N-Canon (or if I thought they were).

Plus, I've never even stated that video games aren't canon, only movements, like how the lightsaber strikes, you dolt.



Darthsith, read carefully:

Originally posted by Advent
Last time I checked, game elements like movements were hardly "canon".

"...elements like movements..."

Now where do I have the opinion that the games' characters, storylines, and cutscenes are not canon? Mainly where do I say that "video games aren't canon"? Ah? Nowhere? What do I say? Movements, MOVEMENTS, MOVEMENTS, which equate to the way a lightsaber strikes, are not canon is what I stated.



It matters inasmuch as video games usually have inaccurately portrayed lightsaber movements, so what makes JPB - a game which you've never even played - a good source especially considering it came out years before forms were around )two years to be exact)? Just because nothing contradicts it? Well, nothing contradicts Vodo > Odan with the Force, but is it true? Nothing contradicts Exar using Djem So! It must be so!

You are missing the real point, and addressing a simple add-on. Please quit wasting my time, son.



How is the Games Versus Forum relevant to Star Wars (and my point)? Does every game follow a canon policy like Star Wars? No. Is something like Street Fighter, or Mortal Kombat limited to only what LFL allows? No? Thought not, so...



1.) I don't need to watch TPM to know that Qui-Gon is slow. He's not that fast, and he actually doesn't use just "light" blows. but that's irrelevant anyways, because...

2.) ...people utilize forms in all types of different manners (Yoda jumps like a cricket, Jinn doesn't, Maul uses TK in his Juyo, Mace is actually slow, etc.), your point collapses when we take that into account, and that it's a video game, and as we clearly know video games inaccurately portray lightsaber forms. Wow, great "evidence".

Clearly Ataru? Would you say Anakin in AOTC was using Ataru when he used two sabers against Dooku? Forms vary from person to person. Kenobi doesn't look like Qui-Gon, and same with Yoda. And I mean...

3.) ...you've never even played the game you are referring to. You got the information off wikipedia, and all it says is that "some fans have speculated, but no source states this".

Plus, wiki = fallible, third party source. Wow, great "source". Here's some facts:

FACT: "Speculating" in the manner you are doing it has never been accepted as fact. What I'm saying is that you cannot state Plo Koon uses Djem So just because "fans speculate" on move sets, because the keyword is "speculate".

Again, by your logic, it is fact that Exar uses Djem So because it looks like it, and same with Vodo and Soresu, and so on.

Is that fact, DS?

FACT: Hell no.

If I were to debate like you, I would say as fact that Shaak Ti must use Makashi because fans speculate that from a line in a novel. Then again, I don't debate like you (thank Buddha), and I realize that to state such as fact is fallacious, and flawed debating.

You have no argument. You are using what a player can do as evidence from a video game moveset. Guess what? It's definitely NOT cold-hard fact because you have no real evidence to support the claim, nor the game. And even worse, game forms are usually inaccurately portrayed. As well, there's always the fact just because something looks the part, doesn't mean it is. Especially with a game as evidence, this is pretty ridiculous to ass-ume.

Originally posted by darthsith19
C-canon is "continuity" canon, consisting of all recent works (and many older works) released under the name of Star Wars: books, comics, games, cartoons, non-theatrical films, and more. - Star Wars Insider

Originally posted by darthsith19
So Plo > Jinn in hid prime > TPM Jinn > TPM Kenobi who somehow curbstomps Plo? Wow, that's messed up.

I didn't see this was TPM Kenobi.

Thus, I think that he makes it to Jango.

If we go canonically, Plo shouldn't even be in that game, since he never had a part of the main storyline. So he wasn't really in on any of the missions anyway. And you cannot simply just look at his style and then guess what it looks like, you need proof. I could state what I think it looks like, then it's just your opinion vs mine.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Plo in his prime. Anything goes. Gets full rest between battles. Assume that if no specification is given for the combatents in the gauntlet assume it's them in their primes.
1. TPM Kenobi
2. Jango Fett
3. Jastus Farr
4. Kit Fisto
5. Luminara Unduli
6. Sora Bulq
7. Cin Drallig
8. ROTS Kenobi
9. ROTS Dooku
10. Makes it

1. Wins
2. Wins
3. Wins
4. Might win, might lose. Fisto's good.
5. Same as with Fisto.
6. Probably will lose here.
7. Same as 6
8. Probably/Definately would lose here
9. Probably/Definately would lose here
10. Doubt it

Where exactly is it said that Plo was better than Qui-Gon in his prime? Qui-Gon by TPM was said to be on par with Mace in sword ability, at least according to Obi-Wan. Does this put Plo far above Mace in sword ability?

darthsith, you truly miss the point. Here's what's considered "canonical" from games: background stories, places, the storyline, characters, cutscenes - mainly things involving the story. Stuff like how a character moves, how a lightsaber strikes, what level you reach, if you can choose what powers (a la KOTOR and JA), etc. are not part of the story, and thus are not canonical.

You are arguing from your POV that Plo Koon uses Djem So because it "seems like it" (not that you've even played the game, but are going by what you hear a.k.a. hearsay). There's no possible way to judge exactly what a character's form by a video game least of all. So, again - using your logic - it is fact Exar uses Djem So. Why do you constantly avoid my post on this? It looks like Exar uses Djem So, it looks like Vodo uses Soresu, is that fact as well?

Let's say another plays Jedi Power Battles, I'll go out on a limb and say that it mocks Vaapad instead, but twisted to fit Plo Koon's speed. So, it seems your little "argument" about looking like Djem So has much doubt on it. This would allows go along with what I said about people using their forms differently.

darthsith, face the facts. You're wrong. Period. Plo Koon doesn't use Djem So as fact. Period. You cannot use it as an argument since you have none backing it up. Period.

Originally posted by kamikz
Where exactly is it said that Plo was better than Qui-Gon in his prime? Qui-Gon by TPM was said to be on par with Mace in sword ability, at least according to Obi-Wan. Does this put Plo far above Mace in sword ability?

Plo was the hero of the Stark Hyperspace Wars. Qui-Gon was present in that battle, yet Plo was the hero, not Qui-Gon. At the time, Qui-Gon was 49 eyars old so he was likely in or about in his prime. Yes, Plo might be stronger than Mace as a Jedi Knight or early Jedi Master (when did Mace ebcome a Master, anyways?). I'd guessing by TPM Mace is ahead of Plo, though.


Wrong. Only Depa, Mace and Sora ever learned Vaapad. And it resembles no otehr form.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Wrong. Only Depa, Mace and Sora ever learned Vaapad. And it resembles no otehr form.

Juyo is what I originally meant rather (as that was my previous point). And darthsith, you haven't even played the game, WTF are you talking about?

Originally posted by darthsith19
Plo was the hero of the Stark Hyperspace Wars. Qui-Gon was present in that battle, yet Plo was the hero, not Qui-Gon. At the time, Qui-Gon was 49 eyars old so he was likely in or about in his prime. Yes, Plo might be stronger than Mace as a Jedi Knight or early Jedi Master (when did Mace ebcome a Master, anyways?). I'd guessing by TPM Mace is ahead of Plo, though.


Wrong. Only Depa, Mace and Sora ever learned Vaapad. And it resembles no otehr form.


Sorry, but I don't see how that makes him better than Qui-Gon. If he was the hero, sure, but he might have earned that through extraordinary courage, done special missions or something like that. Anakin was the hero of the clone wars, and Mace was in that too, doubt he is better than Mace, same with Yoda.

Originally posted by kamikz
Sorry, but I don't see how that makes him better than Qui-Gon. If he was the hero, sure, but he might have earned that through extraordinary courage, done special missions or something like that. Anakin was the hero of the clone wars, and Mace was in that too, doubt he is better than Mace, same with Yoda.
No, but Anakin fought in alot more battles than Yoda or Mace did, and he is #3. Plo and Qui-Gon fought in the exact same number of battles and fought in the same battles everytime. You havn't read the The Stark Hyperspace Wars I take it, have you? It's way smaller than the Clone Wars, lasts only a few days, a week at the most. Tholme, Quinlan, Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Tyvokka, Plo and another Jedi, can't remember who (Adi Gallia, maybe?) were the Jedi who fought in it.

Him being the "Hero" of the battle could be for any number of reasons. Maybe he had the opportunity to do something heroic that Qui Gon did not. All other material would make it look like Qui Gon is better. (Best swordsman Obi had ever seen, on par with Windu, remarkable focus/trance in combat etc).

Anyway, about the lightsaber forms, I'm with you DS. It looks like something that may be Form V (by accident, but, so what?), so it must be. Another thing, Revan sucks at lightsaber combat, he can only attack once every three seconds from a very select few basic attacks. He is way over rated. I mean, we all see how his style of combat is portrayed in KOTOR.

Thank you for agreeing with me about Plo using form 5.

Plo led the battle, it was he who led the others to victory after the death of Tyvokka. Yes, Qui-Gon's saber skills . When does Kenobi say Qui-Gon's the best swordsman he's ever seen?

There, Plo led the battle, he could have had tremendous leadership, or he did something heroic or similair. Being a hero doesn't mean he is better than them, a hero is someone who is brave, often risking his life for others, not necessarily the best combatent.

He says it in TPM novelisation, and even remarks he is "on par" with Master Windu.

Originally posted by kamikz
There, Plo led the battle, he could have had tremendous leadership, or he did something heroic or similair. Being a hero doesn't mean he is better than them, a hero is someone who is brave, often risking his life for others, not necessarily the best combatent.

He says it in TPM novelisation, and even remarks he is "on par" with Master Windu.
So Qui-Gon is stated twice to rival Mace? I only remember it stating this during the fight between Maul and Qui-Gon, one on one, never coming from Kenobi, but okay, so maybe Qui-Gon is a better duelist than Plo, or Kenobi was to busy fighting for his own life during the Stark Hyperspace Wars to pay attention to Plo's fighting abilities - or, likely, since he never saw Plo, Tyvokka, Mace, or Yoda duel Qui-Gon would be the best dueler he ever saw actually duel, right? No, I believe Plo to be superior to Qui-Gon in his prime, he won by encouraging the Republic Soldiers to keep fighting and not listen to tarken and formed a battle strategy, so your right about he could have won due to leadership, but still, he seems to be on par with Qui-Gon during the fighting at least.

But how? The only argument seems to be that he fought in the war, nothing else. This does not put him on par with Qui-Gon and certainley not above. I know abscense of proof is not proof of abscense, but we are talking about Qui-Gon, one of the best swordsmen the order had ever seen, vs Plo, who I haven't seen a single special comment on really except for being a war hero.

Well then, we have nothing on Plo Koon except comic books, where he only appears rarely. I have to go with the video games to A CERTAIN extent. In addition, Maul admired him. Maul's a very martial guy, if he apparently admired him, then he must have admired his swordsmenship since Maul despises everything, especially Jedi.

Maul admired Plo? Where is that? Weird.

Yeah, he actually does, he seems to verbally felate him like constantly.

Really? When? I find that quite funny

He admired him as a warrior, as a martial artist (Teras Kasi master) and a fine practitioner of Schien.

So.... where did he find out about Plo Koon?

Well jedi weren't exactly unknowns, he most probably heard of his exploits in the Stark Hyperspace War, or from Palpatine.

Cool, but which comic was this?

I think it was in a novel, not a comic. ShadowHunter IIRC.

I see...

Yeah, it was Shadow Hunter.

The Twi'lek he had fought had not been the first Jedi he had crossed lightsabers with, but he was not far from having that honor. It had been exhilarating to know that he, Darth Maul, was better in combat than his hated foes. He longed to battle one of the truly great Jedi warriors: Plo Koon, perhaps, or Mace Windu. - C19, ShadowHunter.

He also makes note of his saber skills (Schien), unarmed (Teras Kasi) skills and admires him as a warrior.

That's good enough evidence. If Maul wanted to, he could have said he longed to battle Qui-Gon or Depa Billaba, but he specialy chose Koon.

Yes, proving Koon's a great Jedi warrior, or actually the greatest alongside Mace (of course Yoda could beat them to, but I doubt alot of Jedi regard him as a warrior at all as he doesn't seem like a warrior, just wise).

Are you putting him that high because of that quote? And that quote in TPM takes Qui-Gon as high as ON PAR with Mace Windu, which is to the least as good as that quote puts Plo.

Originally posted by kamikz
Are you putting him that high because of that quote? And that quote in TPM takes Qui-Gon as high as ON PAR with Mace Windu, which is to the least as good as that quote puts Plo.
No. The quote from Shadow Hunter suggests that Plo is an equally great Jedi warrior as Mace, so, basically, Plo = Mace (TPM era). The TPM novel states that Qui-Gon rivals Mace, it doesn't say he equals Mace, and from Mace's databank we know that Mace is ahead of Qui-Gon due to the fact that the only people who ever bested him are Yoda and Dooku, and never Qui-Gon. So basically Mace > Qui-Gon but it's close and Plo = Mace, meaning Plo is slightly stronger than Qui-Gon, and also Maul mentioned Plo, not Qui-Gon, as a great Jedi Warrior, proving that Plo's a greater warrior than Qui-Gon is.

How does "He longed to battle one of the truly great Jedi warriors: Plo Koon, perhaps, or Mace Windu" put Plo on par with Windu? It says he longed to fight good warriors, and he took examples of people he had heard off. Doesn't mean they are equals.
And since when was Maul a credible source? I bet Obi-Wan who spends his entire life with these characters knows better than him...

And if he rivals Mace he is close to him in power, and being "THE best swordsman" Dooku had seen is good to.....

Originally posted by kamikz
How does "He longed to battle one of the truly great Jedi warriors: Plo Koon, perhaps, or Mace Windu" put Plo on par with Windu? It says he longed to fight good warriors, and he took examples of people he had heard off. Doesn't mean they are equals.
And since when was Maul a credible source? I bet Obi-Wan who spends his entire life with these characters knows better than him...

And if he rivals Mace he is close to him in power, and being "THE best swordsman" Dooku had seen is good to.....
Maybe Plo and Mace arn't equal but it does suggest that they are the greatest warriors in the order, making Plo a greater warrior than Qui-Gon, and since Qui-Gon rivals Mace and Plo > Qui-Gon then Plo and Mace are probably tied. Maul is fairly credible cause he will know all the great Jedi because those will be the Jedi that he will have strived to be able to beat. I don't think Kenobi spends much time with Mace or Plo, though, and likely has never seen eitehr of them duel to it makes sense for him to say Qui-Gon's the best dueler he's ever seen. Maul likely knows how strong Mace and Plo are better than Kenobi does as he idolizes them, as far as their strength goes, at least. And as far as being the best swordsman Dooku has ever seen, can I get a source for that?

He longed to battle one of the truly great Jedi warriors: Plo Koon, perhaps, or Mace Windu."
He just takes them as examples, it doesn't say they are the only ones. If he indeed listed the mightiest then Yoda would be on the list no doubt.
And I still don't get why you say Plo>Qui-Gon like it is a fact, Qui-Gon has been stated to be "one of the best swordsmen the order has", "The Greatest by Dooku" (Sorry, I can't remember what source at the moment, if I can I'll tell you tomorrow, promise), and "rivals Mace Windu". I think that is enough to put him as one of the highest jedi warriors in the order by TPM. Now where is anything like that said about Plo? Again, one of the truly great warriors was just using Plo or Mace as examples, he could have dragged up half the Council if he wanted to, and Hero doesn't necessarily mean fighting skills nor does it have to mean he is better than anyone else in that war....

Late here, gotta go to sleep. Bye.

Darth Maul desired to show his prowess and his skill against warriors like Plo Koon and Mace Windu. Maul is a very physical Sith, he wants to fight and by admiring two mentioned above, he acknowledges that they're also very martial and powerful. Now, there is not many fighting Jedi out there. Most of the Jedi Council during this time are not martial. Qui-Gon Jinn is a famous Jedi, well known throughout the galaxy. It's hard to say why Maul didn't say "to fight against Mace Windu and Qui-Gon Jinn" instead of "to fight against Plo Koon and Qui-Gon Jinn". I mean, yes, Plo Koon is famous for his heroics, but nevertheless Qui-Gon is just as popular. Maul must have admird him for a reason, because he's a master of the lightsaber and the Force. However, he didn't desire to fight Qui-Gon because he considered every other Jedi weak and pitiful. In addition, he didn't know about Yoda's power because no living Jedi during this time ever saw Yoda fight fight.

Here's what Star Wars Databank says about Plo Koon:



It clearly says Plo Koon is more martial, thus he uses more agressive negotiations that anything.

During the uprising on Yinchorri, Koon manipulated the Force to create a Dust storm to cloak his fellow Jedi from the enemies. In addition, he is a known user of the Electric Judgement technique. This showns Plo is a master of a more martial type of the Force.

Originally posted by kamikz
He longed to battle one of the truly great Jedi warriors: Plo Koon, perhaps, or Mace Windu."
He just takes them as examples, it doesn't say they are the only ones. If he indeed listed the mightiest then Yoda would be on the list no doubt.
And I still don't get why you say Plo>Qui-Gon like it is a fact, Qui-Gon has been stated to be "one of the best swordsmen the order has", "The Greatest by Dooku" (Sorry, I can't remember what source at the moment, if I can I'll tell you tomorrow, promise), and "rivals Mace Windu". I think that is enough to put him as one of the highest jedi warriors in the order by TPM. Now where is anything like that said about Plo? Again, one of the truly great warriors was just using Plo or Mace as examples, he could have dragged up half the Council if he wanted to, and Hero doesn't necessarily mean fighting skills nor does it have to mean he is better than anyone else in that war....

Late here, gotta go to sleep. Bye.
I already said why he likely didn't mention Yoda, most people probably didn't realise that Yoda was a great warrior, since he nearly never fights. He clearly regarded Mace and Plo as the greatest, as he also mentions Plo's good unarmed skills and Shien skills. Yes, Qui-Gon has been stated to be one of the best swordsman the order has, good, great, we got that, but Plo has been regarded as a greater warrior, making him one of the few Jedi in TPM who are even stronegr than Qui-Gon. It's not like Maul just mentions Plo's name, he speaks of his great saber skills and Teras Kasi (sp?) skills, too. So here we have proof that Plo is a greater warrior and strategist than Qui-Gon is. So pretty much the only thing Qui-Gon might be stronger than Plo in is Force skills. Yes, Qui-Gon's powerful, we realise that, Plo's just even more powerful, that doesn't take any fame and glory away from Qui-Gon, he's still likely the fourth of fifth strongest Jedi at the time of TPM.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Darth Maul desired to show his prowess and his skill against warriors like Plo Koon and Mace Windu. Maul is a very physical Sith, he wants to fight and by admiring two mentioned above, he acknowledges that they're also very martial and powerful. Now, there is not many fighting Jedi out there. Most of the Jedi Council during this time are not martial. Qui-Gon Jinn is a famous Jedi, well known throughout the galaxy. It's hard to say why Maul didn't say "to fight against Mace Windu and Qui-Gon Jinn" instead of "to fight against Plo Koon and Qui-Gon Jinn". I mean, yes, Plo Koon is famous for his heroics, but nevertheless Qui-Gon is just as popular. Maul must have admird him for a reason, because he's a master of the lightsaber and the Force. However, he didn't desire to fight Qui-Gon because he considered every other Jedi weak and pitiful. In addition, he didn't know about Yoda's power because no living Jedi during this time ever saw Yoda fight fight.

Here's what Star Wars Databank says about Plo Koon:



It clearly says Plo Koon is more martial, thus he uses more agressive negotiations that anything.

During the uprising on Yinchorri, Koon manipulated the Force to create a Dust storm to cloak his fellow Jedi from the enemies. In addition, he is a known user of the Electric Judgement technique. This showns Plo is a master of a more martial type of the Force.



So what you guys are saying is that because Maul mentioned he wanted to fight Plo (because he admired him) that means he is above Qui-Gon? How??? He was stated to be "ONE of the greatest fighters" not "above anyone but Mace Windu". I don't get how you automatically reach the conclusion that he is a better warrior than Qui-Gon...

And maybe Maul had never heard as much about Qui-Gon, or maybe he thought he was old since Qui-Gon had already left his prime. And of course there were jedi who knew how Yoda fought, they have sparred with him....

Dooku considered Qui-Gon to be damn good, one of the best he had seen, while Obi-Wan remarks his incredible swordsmanship and power. Why do you put Plo above him because Maul, someone who could only have heard about rumours (and there are many more rumors about Plo and Mace than there is about Qui-Gon) mentioned Mace and Plo. (He did not say those were the only good jedi). And again, Maul could have liked Plo because he was agressive not negotiative, he solved things through combat. That could be what he wanted, that could be why he admired him....

Just because he wished to duel one of the great warriors didn't make him equal to Mace. Dooku asked Grievous what would happen if he faced any of the Council members, like Yoda, or Cin Drallig. Does that mace Cin on par with Mace.

He was clearly up there however, the very least you can get from that statement is that Maul viewed him as a better warrior than Anoon Bondara, and Anoon Bondara was noted by some to be the finest swordsman of the order, so that's got to count for something, though to assume that Plo was above Jinn and others just from that statement is pretty silly to say the least.

Yeah, at the time Anoon was probably like Cin, right? Plo was definately above Jinn, but lesser to Mace, who was said to be basically on par with Jinn and...

I'm just curious, where does it say that Jinn and Mace were pretty much the same?

Yeah, Anoon was the instructor, though I doubt he was as good as Cin. And I'd say that Jinn was most likely definitely ahead of Jinn, the top jedi (after Count Dooku and Yoda) would have been Mace, Jinn, Depa, Sora and Plo.

Cool. Didn't Maul kill Anoon?

I really don't mind Plo being better than Qui-Gon, but I just not get how people say that those quotes alone (hero and Maul's comment) about him takes him higher than Qui-Gon......

Maul's comments and Plo's heroics are just one reason why Plo MIGHT be better than QGJ. However, his mastery of the Force is another argument.