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All of Sidious' past Apprentices unite against him, TPM Maul, ROTS Dooku, ROTJ Vader.....against ROTS Sidious

Don't know if this thread was created yet, sorry if it was....


Either way, takes place in the main room of the Jedi Temple

Maul, Dooku, and Vader.

Without being rude (and, considering my bad mood, lol, it may be hard to do), why make a stupid thread like this? RotS Dooku would give Sidious "a fight", adding the others is extreme overkill.

Though RotJ Vader or Maul may die (Vader simply because of his suit).

way overkill

ROTS Sidious gets tooled.

Fine, how about DE Sidious

ROTJ Vader is 80% of Sidious so he alone, one on one, wouldn't get pwnd, but Sidious would beat him comfortably. Dooku put up a good fight against Yoda so he therefor would put up a good fight against Sidious (one on one). And Maul, who is the weakest link here, alone, when angry, nearly killed Sidious (though Sidious wasn't trying to kill Maul). So take someone who could alone put up a good fight against Sidious, anotehr who wouldn't get beaten to badly and another who could nearly kill him when Sidious was only trying to defend himself and you result in having Sidious get pwnd badly.

Again, it is now DE Sidious

Sorry, while now, this is much closer, in a saber duel I still say the duo would win but when you add in the Force then it's really close, but I'll still go with the trio.

Without insta-kills, none of these characters, against practically anyone, would get beaten badly. They are all solid contenders. Vader, and Dooku have both shown very powerful force attacks, and, Maul has to a much lesser extent. If needed, Maul will be a melee meat-shield. If the team can work together, with force and lightsaber assaults, they can take out DE Sidious, assuming he doesn't throw, a force storm at them.

I think DE Sidious knows way to many force techniques to get beaten by these. He could do alot of things, I for one, don't belive that Dooku nor Maul would be able to resist his drain or lightning, possibly not Vader either. Or else, well in "The Mandalorian armor" he tools Vader like hell by shutting down his equipment with the force, and Vader can't do shit about it....

Vader dies in mere seconds, due to a full onslaught of Sith Lightning from Sidious. He may be 80% of Sidious force wise, but his suit is a MAJOR weakness against people who can use lightning.

Maul just gets tooled with Palps snapping his neck or something with the force (uber powerful force choak). Maul is a saber duelist, ROTS Sidious would tool maul in both saber and force. DE Sidious is faster, younger, and his force powers are much superior to his ROTS self. So Maul goes down quickly enough after Vader's 3 second appearance. Basically Maul and Vader go down before Dooku could even fully try to engage Sidious in saber combat. In which case it becomes DE Sidious vs. Dooku. Which is just a retarded battle no matter how you slice it. Dooku gets owned.

If it's ROTS Sidious, then he gets slaughtered.

If it's DE Sidious, hmmm. Sidious could in fact take this as he could fry Vader up and then beat Maul while fighting Dooku at the same time. Then he slays Tyrannus.

Or of course, DE Sidious loses badly as each of his apprentices are almost as good as him.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Or of course, DE Sidious loses badly as each of his apprentices are almost as good as him.

Are you new?

None of these people are remotely close to DE Sidious.

Maul is like a meat shield in comparison to DE Sidious. Completely useless in almost every way.

All Vader can do is choke people and use his "I'm useless against a saber duelist who is faster then me" skills. Sid's uses lightning and kills him in seconds. Or he can just beat him in a saber duel, but lighting is more owned and Sid's likes to own people, so I'm sure he'd just do that.

Dooku, while the closest of the 3 to Sidious, isn't even in the same galaxy as DE Sidious in terms of Force power. A saber duel would/could be a close one, but force wise Dooku just gets b!tch slapped around.

None of these people are close to DE Sidious, who, is the most powerful Sith Lord of all time.

Did I say he would lose? I said it was a possibility. If you read my previous statement, I gave a situation where DE Sidious would probably win.

No, you said:

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Or of course, DE Sidious loses badly as each of his apprentices are almost as good as him.

Which, I then pointed out, was ridiculous, as none of them are close to Sidious.

Oh, I am sorry then. I wrote incorrectly. I meant ROTS Sidious. Sorry, DE Sidious would wipe the floor out of each of them. Me and my foolish typing mistakes

Originally posted by darthsith19
ROTJ Vader is 80% of Sidious so he alone, one on one, wouldn't get pwnd, but Sidious would beat him comfortably. Dooku put up a good fight against Yoda so he therefor would put up a good fight against Sidious (one on one). And Maul, who is the weakest link here, alone, when angry, nearly killed Sidious (though Sidious wasn't trying to kill Maul). So take someone who could alone put up a good fight against Sidious, anotehr who wouldn't get beaten to badly and another who could nearly kill him when Sidious was only trying to defend himself and you result in having Sidious get pwnd badly.


Pretty much, 'cept Sidious coulden't beat Vader comfortably...

I say the trio win - but barely.

Also, two of the three would perish in the attempt.

I know one of them would be Maul...

Force Storm.

Vader, Dooku, and Maul all die.

Originally posted by Escape81
Force Storm.

Vader, Dooku, and Maul all die.


LOL, I can see that happening actaully...

I mean, let's face it guys - they are going up against THE Dark Lord of the Sith.

It ain't gonna be that easy.

If possible.

Escape, what makes you think the 3 combatants are going to just stand around waiting for a force storm? Either way Sidious wins, with or without the force storm.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Escape, what makes you think the 3 combatants are going to just stand around waiting for a force storm? Either way Sidious wins, with or without the force storm.

A Force Storm takes a few seconds to conjure. Especially, given that this is DE Palpatine, what the hell makes you think that they could get to him and kill him in time?

Answer: they couldn't.

Even in his RotS incarnation, it'd take a little while to kill Palpatine. Not three seconds.

Originally posted by Escape81
A Force Storm takes a few seconds to conjure. Especially, given that this is DE Palpatine, what the hell makes you think that they could get to him and kill him in time?

Answer: they couldn't.

Even in his RotS incarnation, it'd take a little while to kill Palpatine. Not three seconds.

You seem to think that the only way to stop Sidious' force storm is to kill him in those several seconds it takes for him to summon one. This is not so, all it would take is for them to disrupt the ritual; he cant conjure one up while being attacked at the same time.

Originally posted by Escape81
A Force Storm takes a few seconds to conjure. Especially, given that this is DE Palpatine, what the hell makes you think that they could get to him and kill him in time?

Answer: they couldn't.

Even in his RotS incarnation, it'd take a little while to kill Palpatine. Not three seconds.

Well like I said, Sidious wins with or without the force storm. However, I didn't read the location of the fight. If it's in an open area, Sidious unleashes the force storm. However, if it's in an enclosed area, I don't think he could get it off in time, or if he does I don't think he would escape it.

Is there even any evidence that Sidious could control one on such a small scale?

Sidious can indeed control force storms.. I forgot which source it's in, you'd have to as lightsnake.

On such a small scale though?

A Smaller scale would make it easier to control. Seeing as though he cant Completely control a fleet destroying Storm (by his own admission), but he can control it to an extent, then the smaller the Force Storm the easier it would be to manipulate.

Originally posted by Kas'Im
You seem to think that the only way to stop Sidious' force storm is to kill him in those several seconds it takes for him to summon one. This is not so, all it would take is for them to disrupt the ritual; he cant conjure one up while being attacked at the same time.

It takes him only a few seconds. These three couldn't face and defeat the most powerful Sith Lord, regardless of his Force Storm or not.

Originally posted by Escape81
It takes him only a few seconds. These three couldn't face and defeat the most powerful Sith Lord, regardless of his Force Storm or not.

Pretty much.

Originally posted by Escape81
It takes him only a few seconds.

I simple force push would disrupt the attack. Any one of these three jedi would be able to pull it off in a heartbeat.



Oh I know, I just don't agree with your reasoning. He can't just pull off a force storm right away in this kind of battle, he doesn't have the time to do it, and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be able to control it in the situation.



I'm not talking about how big the force storm is, that's pretty irrelavent, all I'm saying is that there's no proof that he'd be able to control such a devastating attack on such a small scale - against 3 individuals, in a pretty small area, I don't see how he'd be able to control it on such a small scale without harming himself, not to mention the fact that the room in the jedi temple is closed, not open so he wouldn't be able to pull one off without destroying the room anyways.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Sidious can indeed control force storms.. I forgot which source it's in, you'd have to as lightsnake.

He was actually stated to not being able to perfecty control them.

Indeed, sid just needs to fry them with lightning, But 3 strong sith against DE palp? vader has the force crush which can immobalise his opponents, dooku has a good version of force grip and maul.. idk, his force push

I'm glad to know that you're suddenly an expert on Dark Empire and what exactly can disrupt Palpatine's ability to summon Force Storms. Did you get this information from the same place where Sirak knew Vaapad, Bane and Revan could flow walk, and Occulumency doesn't require any magical ability?

Please. Once again, don't throw your half-assed, unsupported assumptions around and expect them to factor in at all. All Sidious does is concentrate his anger, and then, let loose.

If any of their Force pushes effect him (considering the vast power gap between them), it'll likely only knock him back a little. Which just would likely make him more pissed off.

Then the Force Storm just intensifies.



I'm sure you don't agree with my reasoning. But that doesn't change the validity of it.

Don't tell me what he can and cannot do. He summoned a Force Storm whenever the hell he felt like it.

Guess what, Mr. Dark Empire Expert? Palpatine summoned a Force Storm to kill Luke and Leia, when he was in the same room with them, and he was unarmed - right after their duel.

So, let's see. A saberless, armless Palpatine has no problem causing a Force Storm, when he's in the same room with his opponents - who are armed.

There just went your argument.



You seem to make the bastard come out in me, lol.

See the above: Palpatine had no problem creating a Force Storm when he was without his lightsaber (and his hand), as well as being in the same room as the people he planned to use it on.

Bottom line:

Palpatine's Force lightning is capable of mortally wounding any person it hits. That alone would put either of them down. But, we'll play the cynic route. It immediately shunts Vader out of the fight. His life support systems can't handle that kind of power. It'd likely either kill or mortally wound Dooku or Maul.

Then, a Force Storm comes, and they die.

Or, hell, he just skips to the Force Storm and kills them in one deft move.

Creating a force storm in a room is the most stupid thing palpatine would do, why? because firstly it takes a few seconds to summon the storm and there are 3 sith lords, That leaves palpatine open to be attacked, from either force crush, or force lightning which would wound if not kill palpatine,

The best thing for palpatine to do is to use lightning, no chance insaber combat due to 3 great lightsaber duelists taking on him, honestly sidious can win them on a 1v1 but not on a 3 on1.

Since his lightning is super dangerous then he can fry vader easy but dont forget vader has the lightsaber to block the lightning and while sidious is doing lightning on vader, again it leaves himopen to count dooku and darth maul,

no way for even for one of the strongest sith lords can take on 3 powerful sith lords at once, and if this environment suits vader, then vaders trio has the advantage due to vader pulling suprise attacks with his surroundings,

Did you not read what I just typed?

1) Palpatine CAN create a Force Storm in the same room, and he was comfortable enough to do it in front of Luke (who just defeated him and was still armed) - before Luke could do a damn thing to stop him.

2) You're forgetting one thing, my friend. Palpatine taught each of these guys. He knows more than they do. He's got more power than they do.

3) They are not gonna mortally wound him with any of their Force attacks.



He can move faster than the eye can see. That's more than what these guys have. He'd likely kill them all pretty easily by utilizing his speed.



Just a problem:

Palpatine's lightning compared to the RotJ days are a lot stronger. And, remember, Vader got killed by Palpatine when he was half distracted by torturing Luke.

Palpatine can kill Jedi with blasts of energy. Vader's suit makes him vulnerable. He's likely the first to die.



Sidious slaughters them.

Originally posted by Escape81
Did you not read what I just typed?

1) Palpatine CAN create a Force Storm in the same room, and he was comfortable enough to do it in front of Luke (who just defeated him and was still armed) - before Luke could do a damn thing to stop him.

2) You're forgetting one thing, my friend. Palpatine taught each of these guys. He knows more than they do. He's got more power than they do.

3) They are not gonna mortally wound him with any of their Force attacks.



you seem to forget creating a force storm takes 2 to 3 seconds and it leaves him open

Secondly yes palpatine taught them, but did palpatine teach vader to use his sorroundings? hell no, even in RODV palpatine didnt do sh!t to train vader has he trained maul, vader learnt all that through himself, palpatine was there to make him stronger.

thirdly a force crush will kill any one, The only people who can defend against this ability are people like Luke, Kyp, Jacen and Kyle katarn who can create a shield, palpatine is a dark side master, he cares nothing about learning the lightside techniques, Force crush immobalises you, even if it doesnt kill palpatine again there is count dooku and maul to kill palpatine when he is immobalised by the crush


Originally posted by Escape81

He can move faster than the eye can see. That's more than what these guys have. He'd likely kill them all pretty easily by utilizing his speed.

did the book even state what form he has used? you got that from the DE source book didnt you, guess what, you cant use rpg stat books as reference since they themselves are a debate, and secondly palpatines skills has got rusty since rotj after being a spirit for a couple of years without practising.



Originally posted by Escape81
Palpatine's lightning compared to the RotJ days are a lot stronger. And, remember, Vader got killed by Palpatine when he was half distracted by torturing Luke.

Palpatine can kill Jedi with blasts of energy. Vader's suit makes him vulnerable. He's likely the first to die.
Are you forgetting vader knows how to block lighting with the lightsaber? Again i will say that leaves him open to count dooku and maul to finish palpatine

Originally posted by Escape81
Sidious slaughters them.

Under these cirumstances, sidious gets slaughtered

lmao, Sirak was stated to know Vaapad in PoD, I never said Revan or Bane could flow walk, just that when you consider the possibilities with the force, it's certainly possible that Sirak might have known Vaapad.

And Occlumency doesn't require any innate magical ability, I thought we had already resolved this. If you want, we can continue it.



Ever heard of a thing called common sense? How the hell is Palpatine going to complete the several second ritual of a force storm if one of these force users just disrupt his concentration, which any of them can do in a heartbeat.

You are the one making the 'half-assed, unsupported assumptions'; you are effectively saying that Sidious possesses enough control to be able to complete the ritual of a force storm while being attacked at the same time. That's bs.

BTW you have no proof whatsoever how long it took for him to create the storm, comics are still media so how much time passes between panels is up for interpretation. It most likely took about ten seconds, he would have likely started it shortly after their duel ended, and there seems to be at least ten seconds passed through by that time, what with Luke's mini speech and Palpatine taunting Luke and explaining how he has a contingency plan and whatnot. Ten seconds seems far more reasonable then 'a few', however at least I can accept that it's an assumption, you're just trying to pass off your opinion as fact, so don't talk about half-assed assumptions with me sonny Jim.



More likely, he would be pushed back by quite a bit, considering he is focusing on the force storm. He would either have to stop the ritual to defend himself, or let himself be attacked and thus lose concentration. Either way, he ain't gonna be able to pull one off.
And he's not exactly that much more powerful than Dooku or Vader (Vader himself was stated to be 80% of Sidious), just possesses more knowledge of the dark side.



How about no.



Actually it does change the validity of it, as I've effectively mooted every point in your favour, he wouldn't be able to employ a force storm in a battle like this, you're wrong, just accept it.



That's strange, I didn't catch him summoning one more than three times, but sure, if you say that he did it whenever he wanted, it must be true, correct?



Bullshit. Quit lying Escape, it's not my fault you're a fanboy.

http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/9120/starwarsdarkempire0624ff1.jpg

http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/5001/starwarsdarkempire0625eb9.jpg

http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/4619/starwarsdarkempire0626pd4.jpg

There's nothing to suggest that he was trying to kill Luke or Leia with the force storm.

"Look below... Look what is happening to your pitiful moon"
"He's destroying the whole fleet. Thousands of warriors are dying"
"My force storm is reducing your rebel fleet to dust. All of your friends will die"

There's absolutely no evidence to suggest that he was attempting to use it on Luke or Leia, nothing.



He didn't plan on using it on Luke or Leia, so this point is moot.



Actually I think you'll find that it's your argument that just got destroyed, so unlucky about that.



Hold up, I thought that it was Zephiel who makes the bastard come out of you, or wait, wasn't it San'Doria, or Admiral Ackbar, or sith'ari, or anyone at EoD? It seems like you're just a bastard period.



He didn't plan on using it on Luke or Leia, so this point is moot.

Originally posted by Kas'Im
lmao, Sirak was stated to know Vaapad in PoD, I never said Revan or Bane could flow walk, just that when you consider the possibilities with the force, it's certainly possible that Sirak might have known Vaapad.

And Occlumency doesn't require any innate magical ability, I thought we had already resolved this. If you want, we can continue it.



Ever heard of a thing called common sense? How the hell is Palpatine going to complete the several second ritual of a force storm if one of these force users just disrupt his concentration, which any of them can do in a heartbeat.

You are the one making the 'half-assed, unsupported assumptions'; you are effectively saying that Sidious possesses enough control to be able to complete the ritual of a force storm while being attacked at the same time. That's bs.

BTW you have no proof whatsoever how long it took for him to create the storm, comics are still media so how much time passes between panels is up for interpretation. It most likely took about ten seconds, he would have likely started it shortly after their duel ended, and there seems to be at least ten seconds passed through by that time, what with Luke's mini speech and Palpatine taunting Luke and explaining how he has a contingency plan and whatnot. Ten seconds seems far more reasonable then 'a few', however at least I can accept that it's an assumption, you're just trying to pass off your opinion as fact, so don't talk about half-assed assumptions with me sonny Jim.



More likely, he would be pushed back by quite a bit, considering he is focusing on the force storm. He would either have to stop the ritual to defend himself, or let himself be attacked and thus lose concentration. Either way, he ain't gonna be able to pull one off.
And he's not exactly that much more powerful than Dooku or Vader (Vader himself was stated to be 80% of Sidious), just possesses more knowledge of the dark side.



How about no.



Actually it does change the validity of it, as I've effectively mooted every point in your favour, he wouldn't be able to employ a force storm in a battle like this, you're wrong, just accept it.



That's strange, I didn't catch him summoning one more than three times, but sure, if you say that he did it whenever he wanted, it must be true, correct?



Bullshit. Quit lying Escape, it's not my fault you're a fanboy.

http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/9120/starwarsdarkempire0624ff1.jpg

http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/5001/starwarsdarkempire0625eb9.jpg

http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/4619/starwarsdarkempire0626pd4.jpg

There's nothing to suggest that he was trying to kill Luke or Leia with the force storm.

"Look below... Look what is happening to your pitiful moon"
"He's destroying the whole fleet. Thousands of warriors are dying"
"My force storm is reducing your rebel fleet to dust. All of your friends will die"

There's absolutely no evidence to suggest that he was attempting to use it on Luke or Leia, nothing.



He didn't plan on using it on Luke or Leia, so this point is moot.



Actually I think you'll find that it's your argument that just got destroyed, so unlucky about that.



Hold up, I thought that it was Zephiel who makes the bastard come out of you, or wait, wasn't it San'Doria, or Admiral Ackbar, or sith'ari, or anyone at EoD? It seems like you're just a bastard period.



He didn't plan on using it on Luke or Leia, so this point is moot.

very good one sir kasim
PWNED

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/2430/ownedbirddm4.jpg

Originally posted by Kas'Im
lmao, Sirak was stated to know Vaapad in PoD, I never said Revan or Bane could flow walk, just that when you consider the possibilities with the force, it's certainly possible that Sirak might have known Vaapad.
I don't see anything about Sirak knowing Vaapad. I see Kas'im knew all 7 lightsaber forms, 7th being Juyo.. And if Sirak DID know Vaapad then it could directly contradict G-Canon sources stating Windu created it, therefore its wrong.


You're missing the point. He conjured one up in seconds while dueling with someone who was almost as powerful as he was. He doesn't need full concentration to create one, he needs concentration to control one.


maybe, maybe not


If you look at the DE scans, you can deduce that it took a few seconds at most to create one. Between all the dialogue and what not, it's obvious.




Lets put it this way, the only thing that stopped his force storm was 3 skywalkers.. That's pretty damn impressive.



REally? Because he told them he was through playing their games, and a force storm came from nowhere.. Yes Kas'im, he was once again trying to kill everyone BUT him even if his patience wore thin..


prove it

*ignores Darth Sexy and waits for Escape to reply*

hey listen troll, we already have one forum idiot here. We don't need another one. If you can't add an intelligent rebuttal, don't post, otherwise you're just embarassing yourself.

Why waste my time replying to your's when we know that Escape will reply, and we know that there's nothing you can add to the table that he can't. Not to be rude, but your posts aren't really worth a reply, sorry if that sounded harsh.

Originally posted by Kas'Im
Why waste my time replying to your's when we know that Escape will reply, and we know that there's nothing you can add to the table that he can't. Not to be rude, but your posts aren't really worth a reply, sorry if that sounded harsh.
Except for the simple fact that my posts have shown far more logic than you could ever fathom obviously, judging by your incessant nonsense..

1) As I told you before. It is a canon fact that Mace Windu invented Vaapad. If this is truly said in PoD, it is obstructing a canon fact, and is therefore rendered non-canon.

2) When has this "flow walk" (if you are referring to Jacen Solo's ability) been shown to alter history or the past? Jacen used this ability to delve into the past and experience encounters that Anakin went through - but he didn't (or rather "couldn't" - as I recall) change anything. Once again, it is a nice speculation, but that is all it is - speculation is nothing. Not here. Not in a debate.

3) Sirak could have known Juyo. Which was a lightsaber form, and one that Maul mastered.



Once again: It is stated to be "magical". The books (specifically, Professor Snape) said this twice. Muggles (non magic people) - and that includes Force users - do not possess a drop of innate magical ability, and therefore, cannot perform Occulumency or Legilimency.

The likes of Voldemort and Dumbledore possess complete defense from Jedi/Sith mind assaults, but Force users do not share the same luxary.

Please don't argue with JK's canon.



It is a mode of concentration, and not even a considerable mode at that. Palpatine was able to electrocute and torture Luke on board the Death Star in RotJ - while simultaneously exercizing Battle Meditation over the Imperial Fleet at Endor.

Considering how no one has interfered with performing a Force Storm (Luke and co. only used their considerable power to stop it after it had already been performed), it isn't likely that it is just that easy.

Furthermore, Palpatine managing to make his psychotic rant to Luke and Leia while summoning the Force Storm speaks well for him. If it required as much effort as you claim, it is likely that he'd be in a Bhudda stance - unable to talk or rant at all until the action is performed.

Or it is possible that he made his speech and then summoned the Force Storm.



I am saying that, as the most powerful Sith Lord in the Star Wars lore, and given what we know - it is likely that though he will remain vulnerable - they will not have the power to kill him in those seconds it takes to summon the Force Storm and then suck them into space.



Unfortunately, one can infer. You've got no proof that it didn't take longer than a few seconds. And, you must consider ten seconds a long time if it doesn't qualify as a "few".

These three won't be killing him in ten seconds.

More likely, he would be pushed back by quite a bit, considering he is focusing on the force storm. He would either have to stop the ritual to defend himself, or let himself be attacked and thus lose concentration. Either way, he ain't gonna be able to pull one off.

You don't understand, my friend.

1) By DE, he is far beyond any of them.

2) Even if he has to stop and defend himself, he will still kill them.



Lucas made a quote to RotJ-era Palpatine. Palpatine does indeed possess FAR more knowledge than they do (which helps him quite a bit) and his power has vastly expanded since RotJ.

Furthermore, that was in terms of power (or potential). As Vader, he has 80% of Sidious's own potential.

Besides. No one said Vader was weak. But his life support system will make him the first one to die.

Palpatine's blasts of energy can mortally wound people. Specifically, Force-users.



Refrain from being arrogant, lol. You don't dictate to me what happens and what does not. Debate a little more, if you will, and gain a reputation before you presume to be on par with anyone here.



You may see the above.



That's right.

We saw Vader use Force Choke about three times in the movies. Does that mean it requires a concentrated effort for him to do it?

We saw Yoda unleash his furious power on Dooku and Sidious, years apart. Must mean he can only do so once every few months, eh?



Oh, of course. I am a fanboy. Once again. Don't presume as if you have any experience with me. I specifically stated on another thread (and I can provide the quote) that I HATE DE Sidious.



Read what Darth Sexy provided. Having debated with Darth Sexy on plenty of occasions, I have to say that he, unfortunately, "can bring more to the table than you can".



See the above.



As I said before, "sonny boy", you've not got a reputation around here, and you're really not appreciated by those of us who do.



Oh, you've got no idea.

escaoe81 you seem to forget that there are 3 sith lords fightning him, yes palpatine in DE can finish any of them on a 1 v 1 match, but how is palpatine going to strike out lightning at all 3 of them when 3 of them are spreaded around, i may go down but again it leaves him open,

And with both dooku and vader throwing objects at him, he has to defend right? which again leaves him open to be attacked by maul


I honour your support for palpatine but he cant defeat all 3 of them, there are other sith lords who can defeat him.

Did you know that vader is still 80% of sidious even by DE? Why? because already in the movies he is at his peak, He just happens to learn more techniques in the force while he is hiding in byss

Hey escape, is that a shot at me? IF so, it's not MY fault that I can only bullshit with the limited sw knowledge I possess and sometimes create semi logical arguments.. Don't use "unfortunately" with my name lol..

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Hey escape, is that a shot at me? IF so, it's not MY fault that I can only bullshit with the limited sw knowledge I possess and sometimes create semi logical arguments.. Don't use "unfortunately" with my name lol..

'Unfortunately' for Kas'Im, you can bring better arguments to the table than he can. Not unfortunately for you.

San'Doria, understand this:

You can't dictate where exactly Dooku, Vader, and Maul will be standing. For all you know, they'll be very close to one another. You can't just say: "oh, they'll be standing here, here, and here".

Read Dark Empire. Palpatine fired off a single burst of lighting per Jedi - and mortally wounded one, and immediately killed the other.

All he has to do is blast one, blast the other, and blast the third. This is not RotS Palpatine. He's far more powerful than he was then. And, this isn't in RotJ where he is torturing Luke. He will be looking to kill these three. Not torture them.



You just don't understand. Vader's electronic life support systems make him especially vulnerable to Palpatine. Need I remind you that Vader stood no chance against Palpatine as of RotJ? He even died when he managed to surprise Sidious in the first place.

As Palpatine put it in The Rise of Darth Vader:

"Is that why you choose to not strike me down? Because you know I could so easily overwhelm the delicate electrical systems of your suit?"

Fastforward 25 years, to a much more powerful Palpatine. Vader's going down.

Then you forget that Palpatine can move faster than the eye can see (!). Vader, Maul, and Dooku are no where near that fast.



1) He would slaughter these three. He's too quick.

2) He is the most powerful Sith Lord ever. Period. No other Sith Lord could take him in a fight.



Once again...

Vader possesses 80% of Palpatine's power (potential) by RotJ. As a Force user, Vader is very powerful. But his lack of mobility and his life support system would make him easy prey.

Originally posted by Escape81
San'Doria, understand this:

You can't dictate where exactly Dooku, Vader, and Maul will be standing. For all you know, they'll be very close to one another. You can't just say: "oh, they'll be standing here, here, and here".

Read Dark Empire. Palpatine fired off a single burst of lighting per Jedi - and mortally wounded one, and immediately killed the other.

All he has to do is blast one, blast the other, and blast the third. This is not RotS Palpatine. He's far more powerful than he was then. And, this isn't in RotJ where he is torturing Luke. He will be looking to kill these three. Not torture them.



you forgot that vader dooku and maul are carrying lightsabers to block his lightning

Originally posted by Escape81
You just don't understand. Vader's electronic life support systems make him especially vulnerable to Palpatine. Need I remind you that Vader stood no chance against Palpatine as of RotJ? He even died when he managed to surprise Sidious in the first place.

As Palpatine put it in The Rise of Darth Vader:

"Is that why you choose to not strike me down? Because you know I could so easily overwhelm the delicate electrical systems of your suit?"

Fastforward 25 years, to a much more powerful Palpatine. Vader's going down.
i already knew that lol, but you forget a lightsaber does block lightning


Originally posted by Escape81
Then you forget that Palpatine can move faster than the eye can see (!). Vader, Maul, and Dooku are no where near that fast.

you seem to forget we cannot give credit to a RPG stat book who has yet to prove that sidious did move that fast
Originally posted by Escape81
1) He would slaughter these three. He's too quick.

2) He is the most powerful Sith Lord ever. Period. No other Sith Lord could take him in a fight.
wrong, nihilus could take him, exar kun could take him, freedon nadd could take him and in this thread, lightsnake got his ass handed to him about exar vs sidious http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=386748&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=1

Originally posted by Escape81
Once again...

Vader possesses 80% of Palpatine's power (potential) by RotJ. As a Force user, Vader is very powerful. But his lack of mobility and his life support system would make him easy prey.

sigh he could just pull off a force crush and as i keep saying palpatine is a sith lord, he cared nothing about the lightside techniques, he doesnt know heal, he doesnt know lukes force shield, He cant defend against crush, what is there to say he can?

and for nihilus vs sidious? sidious cant loop out of the force, this quote from a former debator is good enough to prove that What is so hard to understand in the point that he can't have mastered every aspect of the force because:
a) He stated himself that he couldn't access the Jedi Holocrons
b) Some groups of force users - like the Falanassi - did hide away from him and he never had access to their ways of using the force.

No offense, but you've really frayed my patience. If this sort've crappy logic is the kind you're going to bring up, then don't argue with me any more.

Mark it well:

Sufficiently powerful Force users can destroy the defenses provided by a lightsaber. Yoda, when using the Force, exhibits superhuman levels of physical strength beyond Dooku, Maul, or Vader. And, in RotS, Sidious disarmed Yoda with a single blast of lightning.

Now, Palpatine's a stronger Force user, and his lightning has improved dramatically.



Dark Empire confirmed that in his duel with Luke, Palpatine was moving faster than the eye could see - and the energy he was generating was killing nearby Stormtroopers.

It is a fact. Period.



Look. You and Kas'Im are seriously pissing me off with the "you're wrong" remarks - and then expecting me to accept it. Neither of you have any real reputation or experience. You, especially, San'Doria - aren't taken seriously at all.

Palpatine knows all Dark Side techniques. This is confirmed . Exar doesn't. Nihilus doesn't (and Sidious possesses Nihilus's drain powers), and Freedan Nadd can't touch Sidious.



Palpatine = most powerful and knowledgeable Sith Lord. Confirmed. A lesser Force user isn't going to kill him with a Force Crush.



You can argue with DS or LS. I'll let them own you. I just don't have the patience for you.

Originally posted by Escape81
No offense, but you've really frayed my patience. If this sort've crappy logic is the kind you're going to bring up, then don't argue with me any more.

Mark it well:

Sufficiently powerful Force users can destroy the defenses provided by a lightsaber. Yoda, when using the Force, exhibits superhuman levels of physical strength beyond Dooku, Maul, or Vader. And, in RotS, Sidious disarmed Yoda with a single blast of lightning.

Now, Palpatine's a stronger Force user, and his lightning has improved dramatically.

and with vader having great physical strength to keep his lightsaber in place while blocking the lightning? your point gets crushed


Originally posted by Escape81
Dark Empire confirmed that in his duel with Luke, Palpatine was moving faster than the eye could see - and the energy he was generating was killing nearby Stormtroopers.

It is a fact. Period.
Again we cannot give credit to a sourcebook whom is a RPG stat book. If he was really that fast the comic itself would have wrote something, which they didnt

Originally posted by Escape81
Look. You and Kas'Im are seriously pissing me off with the "you're wrong" remarks - and then expecting me to accept it. Neither of you have any real reputation or experience. You, especially, San'Doria - aren't taken seriously at all., you cant accept it because your a fanboy of sidious. And you think you have a good reputation? yes for your apparant fanboyism of palpatine

Originally posted by Escape81
Palpatine knows all Dark Side techniques. This is confirmed . Exar doesn't. Nihilus doesn't (and Sidious possesses Nihilus's drain powers), and Freedan Nadd can't touch Sidious.
firstly, Palpatines force drain isnt instant and its slow as hell, read this
Emperor Palpatine fed off the inhabitants of his retreat world of Byss collectively with his Dark Side Adepts, although those unfortunate souls were drained slowly, over a long period of time, rather than consuming the whole world at once, yes palpatine has learnt them but does he uses them? when have we seen him use spear of midnight black? when have we seen him use deadly sight? Secondly, freedon nadd as a spirit hurt vodo while nadd was in yavin4. But can the dark side defend against a dark side technique? Drain would kill palpatine, Exar kun can finish him off with a blast of the amulet


Originally posted by Escape81
Palpatine = most powerful and knowledgeable Sith Lord. Confirmed. A lesser Force user isn't going to kill him with a Force Crush.
Being the most powerful doesnt mean invincible. As i said, vader is 80% of sidious, how is sidious going to defend against a force crush when he has no lightside techniques! He cant use the dark side to creat a shield because that is a lightside ability

Originally posted by Escape81
You can argue with DS or LS. I'll let them own you. I just don't have the patience for you. Sad to say, that link i posted, Had LS ass handed to him

lying fanboys cant save sidious

I have a hard time believing that Lightsnake got owned. Much less by you.

For example:

From you:


You must not have read this:

From me:


So don't tell me that my point gets crushed, when you don't READ.

Regarding your reading skills... I'm not going to go so far as to say that you can't read... (though if your spelling is any indication, you have the reading comprehension of an unplugged toaster)... but, perhaps it is that you choose not to read.

Another example:

I've just told Kas'Im that I hate DE Sidious, because he is one of those who makes the Force seem to be more akin to magic powers. I can even provide a quote from another thread, too.

But, either out of lethargy or (possibly) sheer stupidity, you choose not to read. Why? I've got no clue.

Argue with DS or LS from now on.

oops

Originally posted by San'Doria
THEN READ THE LINK, see it for yourself

Originally posted by San'Doria
For example:



From you:


You must not have read this:

From me:


So don't tell me that my point gets crushed, when you don't READ.

Regarding your reading skills... I'm not going to go so far as to say that you can't read... (though if your spelling is any indication, you have the reading comprehension of an unplugged toaster)... but, perhaps it is that you choose not to read.

Another example:

I've just told Kas'Im that I hate DE Sidious, because he is one of those who makes the Force seem to be more akin to magic powers. I can even provide a quote from another thread, too.

But, either out of lethargy or (possibly) sheer stupidity, you choose not to read. Why? I've got no clue.

Argue with DS or LS from now on.

And you are wrong, vader in terms of PHYSICAL strength ALONE surpasses all other sithlords accept for maybe grievious

and you hate DE sidious, nice lying. From what i have been reading about you, you are another fanboy of palpatine.And no i dont have to argue with DS or LS because that thread is enough to convince me that ls is a lier and he got his ass handed to him, READ IT

Originally posted by San'Doria and with vader having great physical strength to keep his lightsaber in place while blocking the lightning? your point gets crushed
How retarded are you? If Yoda, who has shown more superhuman force abilities than any other character up until Luke, gets disarmed by force lightning, what in your ****ing mind makes you think Vader won't? In case you haven't noticed, the force>mechanics..



I'll say this once for the listening impaired, the sourcebook is Canon. the RPG stats are NOT.. The End..


That's a really intelligent argument you have there. "I'm wrong but I'll project my insecurities on you and call you a fanboy".. Shut up



1. How in the blue hell are you going to tell me Sidious' force drain isn't instant and slow as hell? Did you WATCH Sidious drain Byss? Do you KNOW Sidious personally? No? Then shut up..
2. Actually Nadd was on Korriban when he forced pushed Vodo. If you're going to use irrelevant misdirection, make sure to get your facts straight.
3. How is Exar Kun even a part of this thread? Kun was very powerful but he doesn't quite measure up to Sidious, ESPECIALLY DE Sidious..



If character X is the most powerful character, that means character Y doesn't have much chance of defeating him. This isn't a cinderella underdog story, this isn't hoosiers.. We're talking about a hypothetical situation where the best man wins.. Sidious is the best man here.



And you are an imbecile.

see it for yourself

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=386748&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=1

This thread proves exar > sidious

and this came from SOMEONE who has seen the drain
"Emperor Palpatine fed off the inhabitants of his retreat world of Byss collectively with his Dark Side Adepts, although those unfortunate souls were drained slowly, over a long period of time, rather than consuming the whole world at once."

now DS stfu and gtfo, "DONT waste your time," i wont be convinced by your stupid fanboyism

now darth sexy read the ****ing link i posted, it had shut the mouth of LS and it will certeinly shut the gap on your face,
I prove my point, you have not

and DS i said PHYSICAL STRENGTH ALONE! how ****ing stupid can you be?

San'Doria, keep up the ranting - you'll get reported. No one cares about your temper tantrums. It is the general consensus of this forum that you flat-out suck as a debator.

You're not owning anyone. Get over yourself.

1) The Force > Mechanics, as DS said. Yoda has used the Force to show impressive feats of strength (moreso than Vader). Yoda was able to block an attack from Count Dooku - who was capable of using the Force to allow himself to block overhanded strikes from Anakin and Obi-Wan both - at the same time.

If RotS Sidious can overpower Yoda's lightsaber defenses with a single blast, be sured that he could easily do it to Vader. Sidious is now more powerful than he was in RotS and RotJ, and his lightning is now extreme.

Fact #1: Sidious is capable of blasting through that lightsaber.

2) Oh, and, you forget this. In Dark Empire, Sidious used the Force to disintegrate Leia's lightsaber hilt, nullifying the lightsaber itself.

What's to stop him from using that on Vader? Or Dooku? Or Maul?

Oops!

Fact #2: Sidious is capable of destroying their weapons.

(doesn't look good for these three, now does it?)

Fact #3: Sidious is far faster than these three (moving as fast as the eye can see, for one...)

Fact #4: Sidious is far more powerful than these three, in the Force.

Fact #5: Sidious possesses far more Sith knowledge than these three (or any other Sith Lord).

So, let's see:

- A single blast of Force energy will be sufficient enough to obliterate Vader. But, we'll take the cynic route. It'll take two. One blast to either a.) blast the lightsaber aside or b.) turn the lightsaber into dust. Then, the second blast will ruin Vader - killing him and putting him out of the fight.

- Sidious moves; then he can take out either Maul or Dooku with a similar feat. He can destroy their weapons, leaving them with their meager (in comparison) Force powers. Then, he blasts them both to hell.

- Sidious wins. The fight doesn't last that long.

Edit: I felt I had to respond because, your apparent arrogance and lack of cooperation as far as reading is concerned, warranted a nice swift kick of reality.

You're not anything special around here. Stop pretending that you are.

As for the Exar Kun vs. Sidious thread, it is old, and proves nothing. So quit saying: "oh this proves everything!", when clearly - if it is the consensus that Sidious > Kun, it didn't prove a damn thing.

Dang, I ain't reading all that ermm

Didn't Lucas say after ROTJ the Sith are destroyed and NEVER return?

Doesn't that blow the whole EU "Sidious returns uber-powerful" stuff out the window?

Continuity.

In 1983 when RotJ was completed, Lucas did not have the term "Sith". The Emperor and Darth Vader were just Dark Side users who opposed the Jedi.

The prophecy was non-existent.

In 1990-something, Dark Empire came out and resurrected the Emperor - and George Lucas praised the comic, and said that it was the closest thing to a "sequel" of Star Wars (he and I disagree).

In 1998, he began to map together the back story. The prophecy was born. The Sith was born.

Unfortunately, by that time, too many comics/works had used the Sith and Dark Side Force users, which made Anakin's struggle somewhat in vain - though he did technically destroy the most effective Sith and ended their greatest reign.



Ogami, this, unfortunately, makes no sense. Sidious did return, uber-powerful, and far stronger than he was in the movies. I dislike DE, and all other 'superpowerful characters', but this just isn't the case.

1 question, where was it stated that Sidious knew all previously known darkside techniques, and that he invented some of his own.

DE or DE Sourcebook or DSB

Its just that I was reading the DE Sourcebook, and all it says is "It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure".

Originally posted by Kas'Im
Its just that I was reading the DE Sourcebook, and all it says is "It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure".

It is still said by the omniscient narrator - which means that it is a canon fact. That he knows "previously unknown powers" and "invents new ones" means that his knowledge base is considerably larger compared to any other Sith Lord.

From the beginning of the Original Trilogy, Special Edition. Interview with George Lucas.

"......Which brings us up to films IV, V and VI, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him, and allow him to fulfill the prophesy, where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and get rid of evil in the universe"

hhmmmm it seems if DE is canon and Sidious does return it really cheapens Anakins whole struggle!

Obi wan should have said this in ROTS:

With all due respect, Master, is he not the Chosen One? Is he not to destroy the Sith for 10 years and bring balance to the Force?

Originally posted by Ogami Itto
From the beginning of the Original Trilogy, Special Edition. Interview with George Lucas.

"......Which brings us up to films IV, V and VI, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him, and allow him to fulfill the prophesy, where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and get rid of evil in the universe"

hhmmmm it seems if DE is canon and Sidious does return it really cheapens Anakins whole struggle!

Obi wan should have said this in ROTS:

With all due respect, Master, is he not the Chosen One? Is he not to destroy the Sith for 10 years and bring balance to the Force?

I mean if you really think about it, he DOES destroy the sith. Sure Sidious comes back but it's just him. There are no more sith, no more apprentices, no more Bane's order. Unless of course you'd like to consider Han Solo as the chosen one?

Originally posted by Escape81
It is still said by the omniscient narrator - which means that it is a canon fact. That he knows "previously unknown powers" and "invents new ones" means that his knowledge base is considerably larger compared to any other Sith Lord.

"It is believed"

It seems to me that Ogami is suffering from the same deficiency that San'Doria is plagued with. Ogami, pay attention.

Dark Empire is canon. When the series came out, the Prophecy wasn't even formed. Lucas has been known to contradict himself, though he is the highest level of canon. Yes, I agree. It cheapens Anakin's struggle and sacrifice, but that doesn't change its canon status.

So, it is canon. You're going to have to accept that.

@Kas'Im:



I'm going to start calling you Kas'Im, Man Who Argues Semantics. Lol.

Your skills as a debator notwithstanding, this isn't a good point. The omniscient narrator has confirmed that Sidious knows nearly all of the abilities. I would also consult the tNEC, the Dark Side Sourcebook, and the Dark Empire Sourcebook for further information.

Knowing nearly all of the Dark Side techniques + All the previously unknown ones + New ones he invents = more knowledge than any other Sith Lord.

Once again, my friend, Palpatine = the most powerful and knowledgable of the Sith Lords.

So Sidious is NOT a Dark Lord of the Sith in Dark Empire?

Ok but anyways Lucas says Anakin destroyed the Sith in ROTJ so Sidious (The Sith) is DESTROYED i.e. cant come back

It is my belief that DE is NOT Canon, it is a "what if" scenario(c-canon?)
henceforth, can't be used to backup the current debate about Sidious's uberpowers .

Dude, why don't you READ?

1) DE Palpatine is a clone (!). As Lumiya explains in Legacy of the Force, she didn't consider Palpatine's clone to be a true Sith like his original self.

2) Dark Empire is still considered canon.



Unfortunately with the Sith - they aren't an object that can be broken and never repaired. Lumiya is the current Dark Lady of the Sith, and isn't really a true Sith - but she was taught Sith teachings by Palpatine and Vader, and is just a self-proclaimed Sith.



Sorry. That's not how it works. No one gives a damn what your belief is. Sidious's uberpowers still apply.

Originally posted by Ogami Itto
So Sidious is NOT a Dark Lord of the Sith in Dark Empire?

Ok but anyways Lucas says Anakin destroyed the Sith in ROTJ so Sidious (The Sith) is DESTROYED i.e. cant come back

It is my belief that DE is NOT Canon, it is a "what if" scenario(c-canon?)
henceforth, can't be used to backup the current debate about Sidious's uberpowers .

You can call Sidious whatever you want in DLOTS.. DE IS canon considering Lucas helped out with it. The prophecy called for the destruction of the sith and balance to the force. "Destruction of the sith" could mean a few things. Could mean what it says literally, could mean there would have been no more sith after Sidious, or that Bane's order was forever vanquished. It could mean a lot of things really, but Anakin DID fulfill that prophecy. IF you want to point fingers at things that ruin star wars, seek the Legacy comics. They better be N-CANON, otherwise they destroy the entire Star Wars Saga

Sorry GL pwns the eu

He said the Sith (sidious) were destroyed!
Can't u understand what destroyed means??

GL also is involved with the EU, unless youre going to take the idiot's route that's already been done on this forum, and claim GL has nothing to do with the EU. Read what EScape wrote, GL LOVED DE and said it would be a fitting sequel, therefore it is CANON... Capische dipshit?

somebodys obviously not getting any!

ok we're not gonna agree !!

No need for namecalling

Originally posted by Ogami Itto
somebodys obviously not getting any!

ok we're not gonna agree !!

No need for namecalling

We (Darth Sexy and myself) don't care if you agree with us. We're right. You're wrong. You don't read what we post, and instead choose to ramble on with your irrelevent bull. We'd be nicer if you read and understood that you have no evidence and no ground at all to stand on.

Which is the case, unfortunately.

The bottom line: DE is (again, unfortunately) canon, and Sidious's powers still apply. No one cares what you think, when in the face of cold hard fact.

Originally posted by Escape81
We (Darth Sexy and myself) don't care if you agree with us. We're right. You're wrong. ]

ooooo I like

Besides give me proof that GL worked on DE

I gave you a real quote from a valid source (the special editions)

And i don't want no Wiki shit either!! where is he quoted to have said that he considers DE pretty close to a sequel trilolgy?

I want PROOF not your pompous assertions that ur right and i'm wrong

Originally posted by Ogami Itto
Besides give me proof that GL worked on DE

I gave you a real quote from a valid source (the special editions)

And i don't want no Wiki shit either!! where is he quoted to have said that he considers DE pretty close to a sequel trilolgy?

I want PROOF not your pompous assertions that ur right and i'm wrong

1) When did we ever say that Lucas "worked on" DE?

2) You accuse "us" of being pompous? I'm sorry, weren't you the guy who just came out of the blue and declared that DE isn't canon and can't be used to cite Palpatine's powers?

That is arrogance.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
.. DE IS canon considering Lucas helped out with it.

ahem

i'm using the Lucas Quote as evidence that DE is not canon because (for the last time sigh) Anakin DESTROYED the Sith (Sidious) so he's dead! he can't retain his identity like obi or Anakin

So prove me wrong with real evidence and i will concede

Originally posted by Ogami Itto
ahem

i'm using the Lucas Quote as evidence that DE is not canon because (for the last time sigh) Anakin DESTROYED the Sith (Sidious) so he's dead! he can't retain his identity like obi or Anakin

So prove me wrong with real evidence and i will concede

I said it, not Escape. Lightsnake told me about it and I believe he had some sources for me. Either way as Escape said, GL Loved it. He didn't dismiss it, and since his opinion=fact in the SW universe, I believe you're quite wrong. We don't HAVE to prove you wrong with ANYTHING. you CLAIM that DE is NON CANON, so YOU prove that it's NON CANON...

Escape said when did "WE" say that lucas helped on DE

Once again Where is Lucas quoted to have said he loved it???

Proof or stfu

No, DS is right. The burden of proof is on you because you made the claim that DE is non-cannon. So you have to back up your statement.

Oh FFS Lucas said The Sith (Sidious) are DESTROYED in ROTJ!!!!!!!

That means Sidious is DEAD!!!! Anakin has fulfilled the prophecy

He hasn't been hanging with OBI or Yoda so he doesn't know how to retain his identity after death!!!

"......Which brings us up to films IV, V and VI, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him, and allow him to fulfill the prophesy, where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and get rid of evil in the universe"

Is that not proof enough? if not please explain how

Page numbers please.



'It is believed'

Originally posted by Kas'Im
Page numbers please.



'It is believed'

Can you not read? Unless you have a useful argument for why the OMNISCIENT AUTHOR IS LYING OR MIGHT BE WRONG, shut up.

Originally posted by Ogami Itto


Once again Where is Lucas quoted to have said he loved it???

Proof or stfu

How do you know that Qui-Gon is only person in the PT to know how to retain identity. Besides, Sidious incarnated himself. Obi-Wan appeared as a GHOST. He didn't have any physical material. What Sidious learned must have been a Dark Side technique. Remember when he said Plagueis wanted to find immortality. Well Sidious must have been studying from ROTS to ROTJ how to do so. In the end, he finally found the ability to reborn himself in case he gets killed. Which he does.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
How do you know that Qui-Gon is only person in the PT to know how to retain identity. Besides, Sidious incarnated himself. Obi-Wan appeared as a GHOST. He didn't have any physical material. What Sidious learned must have been a Dark Side technique. Remember when he said Plagueis wanted to find immortality. Well Sidious must have been studying from ROTS to ROTJ how to do so. In the end, he finally found the ability to reborn himself in case he gets killed. Which he does.

So sidious learnd the old retain your identity after death thing?
Proof????
A comic??

You have no say in determining wether a comic is cannon or not, so find some proof of your own saying it's NOT, or STFU.

a comic is NOT a CANNON GTFO Jive Turkey

PROOF A COMIC IS NON-CANNON? NOOB

WTF is Cannon????????????????? you retard

did you mean canon????Fool !! its only been said about 20 times already with the correct spelling smilie wars wooohooo

btw I was mocking your spelling not posting an opinion .I do accept comics to be canon if they dont contradict the movies

Anyway one at a time please!!Where is Lucas quoted to have said he LOVED DE and considers it close to a sequel???

Originally posted by Escape81
San'Doria, keep up the ranting - you'll get reported. No one cares about your temper tantrums. It is the general consensus of this forum that you flat-out suck as a debator.

You're not owning anyone. Get over yourself.

1) The Force > Mechanics, as DS said. Yoda has used the Force to show impressive feats of strength (moreso than Vader). Yoda was able to block an attack from Count Dooku - who was capable of using the Force to allow himself to block overhanded strikes from Anakin and Obi-Wan both - at the same time.

If RotS Sidious can overpower Yoda's lightsaber defenses with a single blast, be sured that he could easily do it to Vader. Sidious is now more powerful than he was in RotS and RotJ, and his lightning is now extreme.

Fact #1: Sidious is capable of blasting through that lightsaber.

2) Oh, and, you forget this. In Dark Empire, Sidious used the Force to disintegrate Leia's lightsaber hilt, nullifying the lightsaber itself.

What's to stop him from using that on Vader? Or Dooku? Or Maul?

Oops!

Fact #2: Sidious is capable of destroying their weapons.

(doesn't look good for these three, now does it?)

Fact #3: Sidious is far faster than these three (moving as fast as the eye can see, for one...)

Fact #4: Sidious is far more powerful than these three, in the Force.

Fact #5: Sidious possesses far more Sith knowledge than these three (or any other Sith Lord).

So, let's see:

- A single blast of Force energy will be sufficient enough to obliterate Vader. But, we'll take the cynic route. It'll take two. One blast to either a.) blast the lightsaber aside or b.) turn the lightsaber into dust. Then, the second blast will ruin Vader - killing him and putting him out of the fight.

- Sidious moves; then he can take out either Maul or Dooku with a similar feat. He can destroy their weapons, leaving them with their meager (in comparison) Force powers. Then, he blasts them both to hell.

- Sidious wins. The fight doesn't last that long.

Edit: I felt I had to respond because, your apparent arrogance and lack of cooperation as far as reading is concerned, warranted a nice swift kick of reality.

You're not anything special around here. Stop pretending that you are.

As for the Exar Kun vs. Sidious thread, it is old, and proves nothing. So quit saying: "oh this proves everything!", when clearly - if it is the consensus that Sidious > Kun, it didn't prove a damn thing.

*cough* escape81 needs a life. btw kun > sidious already janus, ikc and borbarad had convinced me that, now shut up escape 81, you are not going to convince me either way.

ok i may not be special i never said i was but speak of the devil, i find you the worst and most idiotic debator here yet who only debates on sidious

Originally posted by Escape81
1) When did we ever say that Lucas "worked on" DE?

2) You accuse "us" of being pompous? I'm sorry, weren't you the guy who just came out of the blue and declared that DE isn't canon and can't be used to cite Palpatine's powers?

That is arrogance.
speak for yourself.

number1) Dont ever go around and judge people
number2) dont even attempt to justify your actions

Originally posted by Escape81

You're not owning anyone. Get over yourself.
i never said i owned any one

Originally posted by Escape81
2) Oh, and, you forget this. In Dark Empire, Sidious used the Force to disintegrate Leia's lightsaber hilt, nullifying the lightsaber itself.

What's to stop him from using that on Vader? Or Dooku? Or Maul?
Whats to stop them? how often did sidious do that? we never see him do it in DEII we never see him do it in EE


Originally posted by Escape81
Fact #3: Sidious is far faster than these three (moving as fast as the eye can see, for one...)
The fact that the DE sourcebooks are a debate themselves and is yet to be proven

Originally posted by Escape81
Fact #4: Sidious is far more powerful than these three, in the Force. I dont deny that

Originally posted by Escape81
Fact #5: Sidious possesses far more Sith knowledge than these three (or any other Sith Lord).
True but what good is the knowledge when sidious only uses lightning? Even as he became more powerful?

Originally posted by Escape81
- A single blast of Force energy will be sufficient enough to obliterate Vader. But, we'll take the cynic route. It'll take two. One blast to either a.) blast the lightsaber aside or b.) turn the lightsaber into dust. Then, the second blast will ruin Vader - killing him and putting him out of the fight.
since when sidious ever used blasts? see you are a fanboy, you are making things up


Originally posted by Escape81

- Sidious moves; then he can take out either Maul or Dooku with a similar feat. He can destroy their weapons, leaving them with their meager (in comparison) Force powers. Then, he blasts them both to hell.

Originally posted by Escape81
- Sidious wins. The fight doesn't last that long.
. Not unless a force crush gets a hold on him, Tell me you ignorant guy, How is sidious going to defend against that ability where he cant even move?I still wait for your answer,
Originally posted by Escape81

As for the Exar Kun vs. Sidious thread, it is old, and proves nothing. So quit saying: "oh this proves everything!", when clearly - if it is the consensus that Sidious > Kun, it didn't prove a damn thing. it did when the much better debators like janus IKC and borbarad proved exar kun > sidious, they were even aware the DEsourcebook was a debate itself

Originally posted by Kadesh
*cough* escape81 needs a life. btw kun > sidious already janus, ikc and borbarad had convinced me that, now shut up escape 81, you are not going to convince me either way.
Who has convinced you? Oh right, people that left this forum because they couldn't face facts, and who call every statement that doesn't help them sleep at night, "blanket" statement..Very nice crowd you follow. And I HIGHLY doubt Nai argued for Kun>Sidious.. You couldn't throw in an argument for Kun besides the random "omgosh he has an amulet he pwns" line..Now shut up. Nobody here cares about past arguments because they were irrelevant. The former idiots of this forum used to parade around the theory that the ancient sith could chuck stars at each other, is that true too? Stop talking shit.. All you're doing is embarassing yourself, and your lack of debating skills is evident.

blahblah shut up

Originally posted by Kadesh
speak for yourself.

number1) Dont ever go around and judge people
number2) dont even attempt to justify your actions

1. An idiot is an idiot, whether he is judged or not.
2. He doesn't have to justify anything. He raped you in a debate, the end.. Shut up.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Who has convinced you? Oh right, people that left this forum because they couldn't face facts, and who call every statement that doesn't help them sleep at night, "blanket" statement..Very nice crowd you follow. And I HIGHLY doubt Nai argued for Kun>Sidious.. You couldn't throw in an argument for Kun besides the random "omgosh he has an amulet he pwns" line..Now shut up. Nobody here cares about past arguments because they were irrelevant. The former idiots of this forum used to parade around the theory that the ancient sith could chuck stars at each other, is that true too? Stop talking shit.. All you're doing is embarassing yourself, and your lack of debating skills is evident.

Firstly darth sexy, you are not superior to any one. What they were debating was that the DEsourcebook was a debate and still is.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
blahblah shut up
why not you shut your mouth and i never talk to you?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
1. An idiot is an idiot, whether he is judged or not.
2. He doesn't have to justify anything. He raped you in a debate, the end.. Shut up.
1. i may be an idiot, but you are no better than i am
2.hes attempting to, you are too idiotic to see that,

and darth sexy, you are the most arrogant debator on KMC. You act superior to others, You ramble, you try to judge people and you think you are above others, Let me tell you something, yes i may be an idiot, but from the way you do things, you look like you are letting out a cry of attention

The thing is, at least Sexy can admit and accept that he's a below average debater, you can't and that's why you're getting all this stick.

i never said im a good debator. im getting all these insults because they cant accept the fact that certein threads about DEsid has been broken

Originally posted by Kas'Im
The thing is, at least Sexy can admit and accept that he's a below average debater, you can't and that's why you're getting all this stick.

Below an average debater? I'm as good of a debater as anyone for someone with limited knowledge of star wars. I've only read some of the comics, a few books, watched the movies, and read the NEC. The people that know more about SW than me are better debaters. Don't presume that I admitted i'm below an average debater, stop embarassing yourself.

Do you say this to everyone who is a better logician and debator than you, San'Doria?

You must repeat this all the time.



IKC is in love with Exar Kun. He also believes that DE Sidious > NJO Luke and Exar Kun > NJO Luke. But he's wrong in all three instances.

And, Janus? Janus is the same way. This is a guy who once thought that Dooku was more powerful than Sidious and could defeat him in combat.

Finally, when have I said that I wanted to convince you? I don't have to.



Well, fortunately for me, your opinion doesn't really amount to much, does it?

Where is Lucas quoted to have said he LOVED DE and considers it close to a sequel???
yawn!!

wow u guys have quite the brawl going on herechair

chill escape 81

Originally posted by Escape81
Do you say this to everyone who is a better logician and debator than you, San'Doria?

You must repeat this all the time.

nope,

Originally posted by Escape81
IKC is in love with Exar Kun. He also believes that DE Sidious > NJO Luke and Exar Kun > NJO Luke. But he's wrong in all three instances.
o hell yes that is so true but still he has pretty good arguments, i mean come on there is fanboy in all of us

Originally posted by Escape81
And, Janus? Janus is the same way. This is a guy who once thought that Dooku was more powerful than Sidious and could defeat him in combat.
not really, i have read his posts and his arguements, i personally find him and fishy the best debators on kmc,




Originally posted by Escape81
Well, fortunately for me, your opinion doesn't really amount to much, does it? i was not talking to you

Originally posted by Kadesh



If you call ignoring source material, calling everything a blanket statement, and making up random shit good arguing then yes, he was great..


Good thing your opinion is irrelevant.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
If you call ignoring source material, calling everything a blanket statement, and making up random shit good arguing then yes, he was great.. nope, fishy janus and borbarad are great debators, they dont ignore canon, they use their brains, not like you going around calling people idiots and assuming superiority

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Below an average debater? I'm as good of a debater as anyone for someone with limited knowledge of star wars. I've only read some of the comics, a few books, watched the movies, and read the NEC. The people that know more about SW than me are better debaters. Don't presume that I admitted i'm below an average debater, stop embarrassing yourself.

Hold up, no need to get defencive, I was sticking up for you.
And just a hint, it really isn't too hard to differentiate between someone's debating ability, and their knowledge base.
However I'll stop 'embarrassing myself'.

Wow, so this thread is going to who's being a good debater and all, now?

Anyway, if you ask me who's the best debaters here, I'll tell you (as I am remaining nuetral here)

Level A Debaters:

1.) Ushagarak
2.) Escape81
3.) Advent
4.) Nai

Level B Debaters:

1.) Lightsnake (though he could be Level A)
2.) Prodigal Knight
3.) Kadesh
4.) Kas'Im
5.) Subjekt
6.) Darthsith19

Level C Debaters:

1.) Darth Sexy
2.) Rampant Ox
3.) Zephiel7
4.) Darth Sexist
5.) Council #13
6.) JollyJim

Level D Debaters (rising up):

1.) Ogami Itto
2.) Medvock
3.) ....

/////NOTE\\\\ The Order of numbers is not a ranking system. I just listed it out. I guess some of the people I put in a specific order but most of them I just listed it. From my time here at KMC, here's how people have shown themselves. But it's just my own opinion I guess...

I feel sorry for Medvock

I'd say it would be, imho:

A1. Ushgurak.
A2. Borbarad.
A3. Swirly Girl.
A4. Escape81.
A5. Generic Hero.

B1. Motoko Sama.
B2. Lightsnake.
B3. Darth Glentract.
B4. ((The_Anomaly)).
B5. Kamikz.

C1. Deception.
C2. Great Vengance.
C3. Darth Sexy.
C4. Medvock.
C5. Captain Rex.

you forgot the retired debators like janus ikc illustrious and fishy, they are really really good.

O YES i no longer hate revan now

Well I didn't know how Swirly, Generic, Glentract, Deception, and Great Vengance really debated.

Crap, I forgot Kamikz and Anomaly. They would definately be on my list.


Oh yeah, Medvock is rising. however, he seriously needs to get rid of that Fisto fanboyism.

Besidies, that list I made was for RIGHT NOW currently here at SW Versus Forum. Janus and them are all retired. So yeah.

mine is

group A
advent
fishy
escape81
janus
borbarad
illustrious
Lightsnake

group B
kasim
Kadesh
Prodigalknight
Subjeckt
darthsith 19
kamikz
rampant ox

group c
zephiel
darth sexy
darth sexiest
Adas(now banned)

group D
sparten
..

they are in no paticular order

Ahaha you guys are hilarious. How you put yourselves above others, I'll never know. Good thing your opinions are meaningless.

Hold up, I didn't even include myself in my ratings.

Level A (The Top Ten Finest)

1.) Ushagarak
2.) Escape81
3.) Janus
4.) Advent
5.) Nai Fohl
6.) Generic Hero
7.) IKC
8.) Illustrious
9.) Swirly Girl
10.) Fishy

Level B (The Top 10-20 Finest)

1.) Lightsnake
2.) Sorgo
3.) Darth Glentract
4.) Prodigal Knight/Kadesh/Kas'Im
5.) Prodigal Knight/Kadesh/Kas'Im
6.) Prodigal Knight/Kadesh/Kas'Im
7.) Faunus/Darthsith19
8.) Faunus/Darthsith19
9.) Subjekt
10.) Kamikz

Level C (The Top 20-30 Finest)

1.) Adas
2.) Darth Sexy
3.) Deception
4.) The_Anomaly
5.) Zephiel 7
6.) Council #13
7.) Jollyjim
8.) Great Vengeance
9.) Darth Sexist
10.) Sparten?

..... More but here's the Top Thirty

I can only laugh how you would put yourself and Kadesh anywhere near level D.. Keep ruining the thread with your irrelevant nonsense.

Very funny lol, let's see where you put yourself Sexy.

I wouldn't waste my time making useless posts. If I did I would put myself above and beyond you and Kadesh. I would say Nai is the best debator that's been on these forums though.. Now stop wasting text.

Believe me Sexy, even if you may be (i dont think so still but if) better than me, I doubt you can beat Kadesh. Even I'm not sure if I can take him on, but I have confidence in my debating skills, as I have greatly improved since I joined this forum.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Believe me Sexy, even if you may be (i dont think so still but if) better than me, I doubt you can beat Kadesh. Even I'm not sure if I can take him on, but I have confidence in my debating skills, as I have greatly improved since I joined this forum.

I've seen you and Kadesh debate. I can be mentally retarded and still out debate you.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I've seen you and Kadesh debate. I can be mentally retarded and still out debate you.

lol

Originally posted by Kas'Im
I'd say it would be, imho:

A1. Ushgaruk.
A2. Borbarad.
A3. Swirly Girl.
A4. Generic Hero.
A5. Escape81.

B1. Motoko Sama.
B2. Lightsnake.
B3. Darth Glentract.
B4. ((The_Anomaly)).
B5. Kamikz.

C1. Deception.
C2. Great Vengance.
C3. ACStyles.
C4. Darth Sexy.
C5. Deus Veneficus.

D1. Medvock.
D2. Captain Rex.
D3. Darth Frobo.
D4. Himokun.
D5. Zephiel 8.

E1. Spartan 2.
E2. Darth Sith.
E3. Rampant Ox.
E4. Jolly Jim.
E5. Darth Subject.


Not including myself, that's the current list. Don't know where I'd rank myself.

yea, i can out do at least half the people on that list.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
yea, i can out do at least half the people on that list.

Now now, it's not a competition. Who btw, may I ask?

Level A (The Top Ten Finest)

1.) Ushagarak
2.) Escape81
3.) Janus
4.) Advent
5.) Nai Fohl
6.) Generic Hero
7.) IKC
8.) Illustrious
9.) Swirly Girl
10.) Fishy

Level B (The Top 10-20 Finest)

1.) Lightsnake
2.) Sorgo
3.) Darth Glentract
4.) Prodigal Knight/Kadesh/Kas'Im
5.) Prodigal Knight/Kadesh/Kas'Im
6.) Prodigal Knight/Kadesh/Kas'Im
7.) Faunus/Darthsith19
8.) Faunus/Darthsith19
9.) Subjekt
10.) Kamikz

Level C (The Top 20-30 Finest)

1.) Adas
2.) Darth Sexy
3.) Rampant Ox
4.) The_Anomaly
5.) Zephiel 7
6.) Council #13
7.) Captain REX
8.) Jollyjim
9.) Great Vengeance
10.) Darth Sexist


Level D (31-..)

1.) Sparten2
2.) Deception
3.) Great Vengeance
4.) Medvock
5.) ACStyles

..... More but here's the Top Thirty

once again, your lists are nothing more than laughable.

if its not a competition, then why make a list?lol

How so Sexy? I am definately on par with Darthsith19 as we have debated many times before and he's never technically beaten me. I have never really beaten him, however I did defeat the arguments of him and Sexist (your master lol) in the ESB Luke vs. Qui-Gon thread where I faced against three other people and still I won.

As for you Sexy, I guess I can put you on par with Faunus and DS, but to say you're "above and beyond" Kadesh and I is totally ridiculous as in real life, I would oust you pretty badly. It's just my SW knowledge isn't that great enough and I don't have much time to give arguments like what escape does.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
How so Sexy? I am definately on par with Darthsith19 as we have debated many times before and he's never technically beaten me. I have never really beaten him, however I did defeat the arguments of him and Sexist (your master lol) in the ESB Luke vs. Qui-Gon thread where I faced against three other people and still I won.

As for you Sexy, I guess I can put you on par with Faunus and DS, but to say you're "above and beyond" Kadesh and I is totally ridiculous as in real life, I would oust you pretty badly. It's just my SW knowledge isn't that great enough and I don't have much time to give arguments like what escape does.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this statement.

I appreciate the merits of confidence, lol. But in all seriousness, I'd say that Faunus, Motoko Sama, and Nai are among the best on KMC (even in its past). Illustrious and Janus are good, and they possess intense knowledge and ability (as much as the top three), but - having debated with them more than anyone on this thread, lol - I can safely say that they are completely narrowminded.

They also let bias dictate their actions. Janus = Dooku > Sidious, and Illustrious = Ragnos owns everybody and their mother.

Oh are people including past people as well, I was only including current.

*Sigh* thats why I hate when Im new to forums, I am NOT D level material Im at LEAST on par with Lightsnake, being as though I've debated Advant or as she's known at Gamefaqs Asian Chick and she's never beat me I'd put myself up there.

- Ushgarak rarely debates, being a moderator. But, I agree, when he does - he argues in terms of canon. He doesn't let any personal bias interfere, and he enforces canon to its highest degree.

- Janus and Illustrious are some of the most knowledgeable people/debators you'll ever come across. They know a crapload more than 80% of the KMC population (including myself), but they are outrageously aggressive (even moreso than I was for this "social experiment" and are completely narrowminded.

- Advent/Motoko Sama (aside from being my wife - j/k) is aggressive, but not needlessly so. She's backed me up plenty of times, and I her. We proved that Anakin > Dooku (in terms of saber abilities), and she also doesn't let bias dictate her actions.

- Nai's one of the very best, like Advent, and I can safely say this, though he and I have a record of disagreeing on 99% of most cases. He likes to function as "the devil's advocate" (self admitted), but he also argues with everything he's got. And, excuse his occasional grammatical errors, as his native language is German.

- IKC is like Janus and Illustrious. He knows what the hell he's talking about. But he's probably the most aggressive debator, and can be outrageously cruel to people who disagrees with him.

- Generic Hero is someone whom I'd rank on par with Motoko and Nai.

- Faunus doesn't let bias dictate him, and he's pretty easy-going. On par with Motoko, Nai, and Generic.

- Glentract. Ehh... he's a math whiz, but uses outrageous algorithims to try to calculate the amount of destruction major Force attacks and stuff. He is also bound by bias.

- Deception = the supreme fan of Ancient Sith.

- Swirly Girl and Sorgo also know their crap (a hell of a lot more than I do), but they are also known for their aggressive attitude (though Sorgo seems to have calmed down) - and I haven't been in touch with Swirly Girl for a while. She seems to be clinically insane, though.

The Top Four Bestestests Evar!

1.) Advent.
2.) Motoko Sama.
3.) Major Motoko.
4.) Motoko Kusanagi.

I'm the best ev4r!

(Yeah, right.)

AcStyles, however, has shown a lot more skillz than half the debaters on here right now. Rating debaters is pretty asinine, though. Everyone sucks at debating!

And Escape, WTF! "aside from being my wife - j/k"? Is that how you treat our vows? As a joke?

Level A (The Top Ten Finest)

1.) Ushagarak
2.) Escape81
3.) Nai Fohl
4.) Advent
5.) Janus
6.) Generic Hero
7.) IKC
8.) Illustrious
9.) Swirly Girl
10.) Faunus

Level B (The Top 10-20 Finest)

1.) Lightsnake
2.) Sorgo
3.) Darth Glentract
4.) Fishy
5.) Kadesh
6.) Kas'Im/Prodigal Knight
7.) Kas'Im/Prodigal Knight
8.) Subjekt/Darthsith19/Darth Sexy
9.) Subjekt/Darthsith19/ Darth Sexy
10.) Subjekt/Darthsith19/Darth Sexy

Level C (The Top 20-30 Finest)

1.) Adas (banned) --> ACStyles (he's growing)
2.) Kamikz
3.) Deception
4.) Rampant Ox
5.) The_Anomaly
6.) Zephiel7
7.) Council #12
8.) Jollyjim
9.) Great Vengeance
10.) Darth Sexist

Growing? BS, I know for a fact Im better then Everybody on the B List save for maybe Lightsnake.

Big words. If you want, we can put it to the test.

All right then, I'll see if I can ask Kadesh if he is willing to duel with you. I highly doubt that you're DEFINATELY BETTER than everyone in the B List.

How the f*ck do you leave off Lord Darkstar?

?

Probably due to the fact that Prodigal and whoever else weren't around when Darkstar was (neither was I, but I still read like every thread on here before I started).

I will put them to the test, I just owned Kadesh in the Bane vs Revan topic, next. I hate being new, proving my self to the locals and all. Hell just ask Lightsnake yourself if you don't think Im any good.

And why is Fishy B team?

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
All right then, I'll see if I can ask Kadesh if he is willing to duel with you. I highly doubt that you're DEFINATELY BETTER than everyone in the B List.

He'd own Kadesh, but I'm up for it if he is.

Yeah, Lord Darkstar and Fishy were like the best, but I was only including active members.