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Revan
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q143/Zephiel7/bitterredemptionsmall-1.jpg



Versus



Kyp Durron
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q143/Zephiel7/eu2_bg.jpg


Who wins?

I say Revan

Revan

To Bane it seemed the teachings contained within the single Holocron surpassed those of the Academy's entire archives. Revan had discovered many of the rituals of the ancient Sith, and as the holocron's avatar explained their nature and purpose, Bane could barely wrap his mind around their awesome potential. Some of the rituals were so terrible-so dangerous to attempt, even for a true Sith Master-that he doubted he would ever dare to use them. (PoD)

As we see from PoD, Bane describes some of the darkside techniques Revan knew as possessing awesome potential. He mentions that the force storm he used on Russan was a technique he learned from Revan. As was the thought bomb.

Revan dueled Malak while Malak was empowered by the Star Forge. The Star Forge gave Malak a substantial boost in force powers, (the said Sith Lord was already known to possess knowledge on Sith Magics, and was a very powerful duelist and force uses). What more, Revan defeated Malak twice. Malak also stated that Revan's powers in the ligthside were far more superior than his already formidable abilities in the darkside.

Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered (complete Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic to learn more), Darth Malak possesses extraordinary dark side Force powers (DE Sourcebook add on)

Revan was also a master of Echani precognition, an ability that in conjuction with his Jedi precognition gives him an advantage in dueling against Kyp Durron.

Kyp

While Durron may have manipulated a black hole, that is the only ability that impressed me. However this does not even translate into a dueling arena situation. Also Durron may have guided a lightning bolt into an ancient Sith Worm, but I would rank this below a full fledged force storm (as described by PoD, KOTOR.)

So in conclusion, I would state that Revan succeeds.

That's Revan?

Anyways, don't know much about Kyp, except he's leet in Saber Skills, Revan wins with Force Powers I guess

Revan wins. Kyp's good but not quite that good.

Kyp might POSSIBLY be superior to Revan in the force, but none of his abilities would have anything to do with 1 on 1 combat with another powerful force user. Revan is already uber.. Add the fact that he's a saber prodigy and you have a win.

I'd actually say Kyp most likely has this, he's far too strong in the force, pretty close to Luke. He could probably crush him or something with the force, I don't think Revan's quite that strong.

id give it to revan for revans saber skills

@Kas'im. We know that Kyp is second to Luke in his age.. But how far is the margin of superiority? By NJO we see Luke cut through hundreds of Yuzzang Vong, whereas Kyp only succeeded in killing one slayer, with great difficulty. I would not put them both near each other...

yea kyp is sloppish with the lightsaber, personaly i think that the old republic era jedi are much better in terms of saber combat, for the NJO id say they are better with the force but not saber wise

Ugh why did you choose that picture for Revan there are so many better ones let alone the fact that Revan is black...

Very close, but Kyp wins. He's second to Luke in the NJO except maybe Jacen but he is very powerful. I would say Revan can beat him up with the saber but in the Force I would say Kyp barely wins out.

I have a question, where does it say that Revan is a saber prodigy?

I've heard no evidence of the sort, other then fanboy BS. Can someone provide me with a quote explaining Revan's apparent leetness with a saber?

We know he's pretty powerful in the force thanks to the Bane novel, but I've not heard anything about his saber skills.

However, Kyp is not good with the saber I have heard. And considering Revan was able to beat Malak, who said to be powerful in the Force and saber, I am under the impression that he is pretty good.

Originally posted by San'Doria
yea kyp is sloppish with the lightsaber, personaly i think that the old republic era jedi are much better in terms of saber combat, for the NJO id say they are better with the force but not saber wise


I remember somone saying that to Advent a long time ago, and she disagreed...

You are right though. Most of the NJO was somwhat limited and stunted in the use of the lightsaber - at least in comparison with the older Jedi Order.

Kyp is pretty horrible with a lightsaber, It should be noted that at the high point of the NJO series, he got beaten down and subdued in a duel with two YV Slayers. Any of the heavy-hitters of the pre-purge Jedi Order could have beaten those two without too much trouble.

Revan wins, also, without too much trouble.


As a final note, I don't think Kyp's ability to manipulate black holes and such can actually be utilised or applied in conventional dueling.
If it could have been, he would have used to somhow against the two Slayers, to insure Han Solo dident die of that amphistaff bite.

So, yeah, Revan wins, of course.

Revan took out an entire Sith Academy on Korriban. I doubt he used the Force the whole time. KOTOR shows Revan using a lightsaber slaying Sith and using the Force at the time. In addition, he out Uthar Wyn, who's the head of the Academy. I consider Uthar to be somewhat like a battlemaster and Academy Head. Revan defeated him and then took out Uthar's apprentice as well. Plus you see Revan killing Malak with a saber ignited (Duron Qel-Droma's vision + KOTOR), and Malak was quite exceptional.

Yea, Revan being a saber prodigy is more of a logical deduction than actual canon text.

Thats really not good enough though. For all we know these people could be as good at dueling as say Kit fisto, Or they could be as good as Mace, there's no way to tell though.

So until I actually get some real proof that Revan was some saber god, then I'm not believing it based soley on the premise that "revan was teh l33t!!1". Its pretty obvious that he had to be good at least to some extent, given what he accomplished, but currently I'd put his saber skills on par with the likes of say ROTS Obi-Wan or Cin Drallig or someone. Good, but not THAT good.

I'm pretty sure he was stated to be both a saber and force prodigy, as was Malak, and I think Bastilla.

Link? Quote? Proof of any kind as to where or when or who says this?

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Thats really not good enough though. For all we know these people could be as good at dueling as say Kit fisto, Or they could be as good as Mace, there's no way to tell though.

So until I actually get some real proof that Revan was some saber god, then I'm not believing it based soley on the premise that "revan was teh l33t!!1". Its pretty obvious that he had to be good at least to some extent, given what he accomplished, but currently I'd put his saber skills on par with the likes of say ROTS Obi-Wan or Cin Drallig or someone. Good, but not THAT good.

Why would his skills match those of only ROTS Obiwan and Cin Drallig? Him and Malak were the ABSOLUTE best in an order of tens of thousands. How would that NOT make him a lightsaber prodigy exactly? His defeat of Malak, although somewhat of an unknown, shows his case..

Thats not logical at all. Simply because they were the best of an order of thousands does not equate to them having saber skills on par with say Mace Windu.

Maybe they're were both uber leet force users (and we know Revan was pretty damn powerful with the force), but shitty saber duelists, and thats why they were the best of the best. You cant conclude that Revan was a saber prodigy, as its not actually a prerequisite of him being one of the most powerful people in the galaxy. At this point the evidence points towards Revan being uber powerful force wise out of an order of thousands, not (nearly as much so) saber wise.

It IS possible that he was, and so was Malak. But without any kind of solid proof then I don't just assume things. Nor do we (in this forum) assume such things. So sorry, its still not good enough.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Thats not logical at all. Simply because they were the best of an order of thousands does not equate to them having saber skills on par with say Mace Windu.
Why not? Mace was the best or second best in an order of tens of thousands. He was a lightsaber prodigy. Yoda WAS the best.. He was a lightsaber prodigy.. How is that NOT logical?


Name me one person who was among the best in the order, and shitty at saber dueling.


Not good enough for you maybe, but logical deduction says he WAS a prodigy.

Originally posted by AcStylesVer01
Ugh why did you choose that picture for Revan there are so many better ones let alone the fact that Revan is black...

Sorry, do you mean black ala Mace Windu...?

Vos, I am going to have to ask you to supply a bit more proof on Kyp's apparent uber force abilities. He manipulated one black hole. This alone cannot give him an advantage in an arena duel, because there are no black holes lying close to the contenders.

Revan possessed knowledge in the force that surpassed that held by the entire archives during PoD time period. Bane even mentioned that he could hardly rap his mind around their awesome potential. Malak also judged Revan, during their duel, as possessing an even greater ability in the lightside. One of Revan's abilities include the PoD force storm, an attack that is far more effective in a dueling situation.

Sure Kyp was the second best in his order, at the time. But he was leagues behind Luke. Luke was able to slaughter a hundred or so Vong warriors. Kyp was having trouble with two Vong slayers.



Logical deductions really. Malak was generally considered a better duelist than Kavar, the top duelist of the martial Jedi Order of the time.

Revan defeated Malak in a duel aboard the Star Forge, and he defeated the empowered Sith Lord twice . A duel usually consists of lightsabers clashing and force attacks against one another. If Revan defeated an empowered Malak AT least twice, logic would dictate that he was far superiour to Malak.

Revan was also a master of Echani precognition, an ability when synergized with Jedi precognition gives him an advantage in dueling against Kyp Durron.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Why not? Mace was the best or second best in an order of tens of thousands. He was a lightsaber prodigy. Yoda WAS the best.. He was a lightsaber prodigy.. How is that NOT logical?


Name me one person who was among the best in the order, and shitty at saber dueling.


Not good enough for you maybe, but logical deduction says he WAS a prodigy.

Again, not logical.

Name one person who was among the best in the/ an order and was not a saber prodigy? Perhaps you should look at the name of this thread *COUGH*Kyp Durron*COUGH*

Enough said.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Sorry, do you mean black ala Mace Windu...?

Yes...what other kind of black is there?

And for Revan not only does he become more powerful in KOTOR as a Jedi but Post KOTOR he regains all his old memories thus regaining all his knowledge as a Sith Lord plus that of current Jedi status.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Again, not logical.

Name one person who was among the best in the/ an order and was not a saber prodigy? Perhaps you should look at the name of this thread *COUGH*Kyp Durron*COUGH*

Enough said.

By among the best I meant #1 and #2. Kyp is at least #3.. So you were saying?

Originally posted by AcStylesVer01
Yes...what other kind of black is there?




Darth Vader black????

Originally posted by AcStylesVer01
Yes...what other kind of black is there?

The things is, the dark side and ancient sith teachings especially were mostly real quick to learn (the darkside is stated to be a quick and easy path to power many times, for example once Aleema started studying sith magic, she grew in power by a phenomenal amount in such a short time) and vastly more devestating than lightside techniques, so the fact that Revan was stated to be more powerful as a jedi master (Malak states this, he had no reason to lie and is in a position to judge effectively) would indicate that he could wield the power of the lightside to a more devastating effect than he could to all his sith teachings, which to me suggests great great strength and mastery of the force.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
By among the best I meant #1 and #2. Kyp is at least #3.. So you were saying?

Grasping at straws much? The fact is that Kyp is arguably second to Luke in terms of force power. Which puts him "Among the best in the order"

And it proves that you can in fact be in the top tier of power, and not be very good with a lightsaber.

And even if I take what your saying and run with it, you've sill offered no actual premises that show that Revan is in fact a lightsaber prodigy.

(BTW, Yoda wasn't REALLY a lightsaber prodigy, he just had 800 years of practice, thats a huge difference) People like Anakin and Mace are lightsaber prodigies.

I mean even Sidious is an example of what I'm talking about. In terms of overall dueling ability, Sidious isn't really the best of the best in terms of saber dueling. Its VERY VERY arguable that ROTS Anakin is better then he is. I'd actually go as far to say that Anakin would probably beat Sidious in a pure saber fight. Sidious is good, but Yoda and Mace are slightly better at saber dueling then he is, as is Anakin more then likely. That means he's #3 on the saber skills list, but tied for 1st in the force power list (with Yoda).

Again, your saying that the best of the best are ALWAYS lightsaber prodigies. Thats completely unfounded, even if coincidently it happens to be true that most of the top tier are decent with a lightsaber, its not an actual formulatic argument.

It does not follow in any way that "Best Jedi/ Sith = Lightsaber prodigy" Kyp is probably the best example of this, Sidious is also a good example. As is Kreia.

Your drawing conclusions that Revan MUST be a saber prodigy, and your drawing these conclusions, not by having evidence of Revan being one, but your using other people and saying it somehow also applies to Revan. Its BS, plain and simple.

All top Jedi and Sith are Lightsaber prodigies
Revan is the top Jedi
Therefore Revan is a lightsaber prodigy.

Thats the argument your using, but P1 fails due to the fact that not all of the top Jedi/ Sith are lightsaber prodigies. Nor is it a necessary condition for them to be lightsaber prodigies if they are in the top tier, your argument fails here.

Again, I'm not saying that Revan is a crappy saber duelist. He is no doubt good, from what we've seen him do. But is he on the level of Anakin or Mace, or Exar Kun, or other stated proven lightsaber prodigies? No. Not until there is either 1) legitimate comparative evidence that can prove it or 2) It is explicitly stated somewhere. Neither of which have happened. You can believe that Revan is a lightsaber prodigy, but don't start trying to tout it around as fact when it isn't.

Just one thing Anomaly, how do you know Yoda wasn't a saber prodgidy? Maybe he was a prodgidy when he was younger, I mean, he was damn old in the PT and OT, he probably moved even faster when he was younger. (The fact that he enhances his body from walking with a stick or levetating in a chair, to jumping around faster than anybody in the whole PT) He also had the highest midichlorians count in the PT order except for Anakin...

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Grasping at straws much? The fact is that Kyp is arguably second to Luke in terms of force power. Which puts him "Among the best in the order"

And it proves that you can in fact be in the top tier of power, and not be very good with a lightsaber.
Again, I did not specify the first time, but either way you don't know Kyp isn't good with a saber.. Revan and Malak were 1 an 2, and were great, I guess Kas'im and Bane were 1 and 2, and were great, Yoda and Mace were 1 and 2, and were great.. See the pattern?


I would say someone that mastered all 7 forms in lightsaber combat and was never beaten, makes him a prodigy.


Wrong, its not arguable. Sidious practiced all 7 forms and had the ability to move faster than the eye could see. Read the Journals of Darth Maul before you make that assumption.


Always, maybe not, nothing is definite, but the statement was 99% accurate.


Sidious was incredible with a lightsaber, and we don't know enough about Kreia to throw her into this.


I am saying it's logical to think Revan is most likely a lightsaber prodigy. He was never beaten, and be beat Malak twice..


Or Revan was never beaten and he defeated Malak..


Except for the fact that you've proven that pretty much all the BEST jedi/sith are lightsaber prodigies.. Just because Anakin was stated as a lightsaber prodigy and Revan wasn't in no way means Anakin>revan. That's not a very good argument.

Or we could go by the fact that he beat Malak on the SF when Malak was being described as near invincible, had an extraordinary and twisted control of the DS, was the best duelist in the Jedi and Sith Order(save for Revan) since he beat Kavar who was known as the best. And Revan beat this in a duel...twice as a padawan with months of actual experience under his belt. Revans power and skill speak for themselves, and then we have Vandar calling him a prodigy.

Originally posted by AcStylesVer01
Or we could go by the fact that he beat Malak on the SF when Malak was being described as near invincible, had an extraordinary and twisted control of the DS, was the best duelist in the Jedi and Sith Order(save for Revan) since he beat Kavar who was known as the best. And Revan beat this in a duel...twice as a padawan with months of actual experience under his belt. Revans power and skill speak for themselves, and then we have Vandar calling him a prodigy.

Well there we go

While Durron may have manipulated a black hole, that is the only ability that impressed me. However this does not even translate into a dueling arena situation. Also Durron may have guided a lightning bolt into an ancient Sith Worm, but I would rank this below a full fledged force storm (as described by PoD, KOTOR.)

What about the fact that he had enough power in telekinesis to shove an capital ship with a wave of his hand and there was zero noticable drain from the force expenditure. The amount of power in that gesture rivals what Bane did to the Temple on Lehon and Bane had to charge up for the attack and was extremely drained afterwards. Revan may be better than Bane, but it's not by a ton from what I have thus far seen.

Oh, and Kyp killed a Leviathan with the lightning attack, not a Sith Wyrm. It must have been a literally MASSIVE amount of lightning, as Leviathan's were described by the NEC as "superweapons". You don't call something a superweapon if you can kill it with your average force storm.

ok so what if kyp manipulated a black hole? does that mean he is uber? no, nihilus even pulled the ravager from orbit on malachor v and held the ship together with his will does that mean he is uber? no

lightsaber combat = revan
force = revan

Prove any of that.

Well as for Lightsaber combat, Revan single handedly destroyed an entire academy of Sith, killed Uthar, beat Pumped Up Malak twice and had a Battle Precognition stronger then the highest of the Echani generals who could predict battles months in advanced.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Again, I did not specify the first time, but either way you don't know Kyp isn't good with a saber.. Revan and Malak were 1 an 2, and were great, I guess Kas'im and Bane were 1 and 2, and were great, Yoda and Mace were 1 and 2, and were great.. See the pattern?


I would say someone that mastered all 7 forms in lightsaber combat and was never beaten, makes him a prodigy.


Wrong, its not arguable. Sidious practiced all 7 forms and had the ability to move faster than the eye could see. Read the Journals of Darth Maul before you make that assumption.


Always, maybe not, nothing is definite, but the statement was 99% accurate.


Sidious was incredible with a lightsaber, and we don't know enough about Kreia to throw her into this.


I am saying it's logical to think Revan is most likely a lightsaber prodigy. He was never beaten, and be beat Malak twice..


Or Revan was never beaten and he defeated Malak..


Except for the fact that you've proven that pretty much all the BEST jedi/sith are lightsaber prodigies.. Just because Anakin was stated as a lightsaber prodigy and Revan wasn't in no way means Anakin>revan. That's not a very good argument.

1. Yoda has never been beaten? Even in his youth? Ever? Oh wait, we don't know anything about Errr....800 years of his life. Ohhhh I get it, your just assuming things again. Gotcha.

Yoda was a saber prodigy? Not proven, unless you have such proof that Yoda had mastered any style to a degree of say, Anakin, when he was 20ish years old. Oh wait, again, you don't. Being a saber prodigy and having 800 years to learn everything are VERY different things. You don't think Anakin would master all 7 forms if he could train for 800 years? Seriously, give ANY Jedi 800 years to train and they could learn all 7 forms. BS and unsupported assumptions yet again.

2. and yet Sidious got put on his @ss in saber combat by Windu. There's no doubt that Sidious is very good with a saber. But he's not as good as Anakin or Mace or Yoda. Btw, does it actually say that Sidious practiced all 7 forms somewhere? or are you just making that up too? Last I checked all we had were assumptions of what form Sidious practiced. I'm not saying your wrong, but I want something to prove that Sidious practiced all 7 forms, because I've never seen any proof.

3. And thats where your argument fails. And where you proceed to not comprehend what I'm telling you. Even if by coincidence MOST of the top tier Jedi/ Sith are saber prodigies, it does not follow that ALL Jedi have to be.

Heres a question for you. If you took away LOTF Luke's lightsaber skills, and assume that he's never seen or used a saber before, but kept his force powers exactly the same, do you think that he'd no longer be considered the most powerful person in the galaxy? No, he would still be the most powerful person in the galaxy (and in the SW universe). Lightsaber skill and force power are not inherently connected together by logical thinking. It is possible to be shitty with a lightsaber, and UBER powerful with the force, to the point (like say Luke, or Revan) where no one could beat you anyways, even if you sucked with a saber. Even Palpatine states this in a manner in DE when he grows tired and says "I've had enough of your Jedi dueling games". People who are THAT powerful with the force don't need lightsaber skill, nor does it follow that they ALL have Uber saber skills. Uber saber skills does not equal uber force power, right? So why does uber force power equal saber skills? It doesn't, because you CAN, in fact, have one without the other.

4. Sidious was VERY good with a lightsaber, but he wasn't quite Mace or Yoda or possibly even Anakin (Even arguably Dooku for that matter).

5. And where exactly was it stated again that Malak was a saber prodigy? Seeing as we know little of how powerful Malak actually was in comparison to people who we can gauge they're power (because we have proof) you cant say Revan beating Malak would then allow you to deduce that he could beat, say, Windu. We have no real proof of Malak's saber skill, and until we do, saying Revan beat him in no way is a judge of his saber skill. Again, maybe Malak was uber in the force, and maybe thats why he was the next powerful person in the galaxy at the time. There's no way to know, so There's nothing you can say other then "We don't know enough about Revan's (or Malak's) saber prowess to compare then to other known saber prodigies.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
5. And where exactly was it stated again that Malak was a saber prodigy? Seeing as we know little of how powerful Malak actually was in comparison to people who we can gauge they're power (because we have proof) you cant say Revan beating Malak would then allow you to deduce that he could beat, say, Windu. We have no real proof of Malak's saber skill, and until we do, saying Revan beat him in no way is a judge of his saber skill. Again, maybe Malak was uber in the force, and maybe thats why he was the next powerful person in the galaxy at the time. There's no way to know, so There's nothing you can say other then "We don't know enough about Revan's (or Malak's) saber prowess to compare then to other known saber prodigies.

We have the fact that he beat the known best saber user in the Jedi Order of Thousands.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
We have the fact that he beat the known best saber user in the Jedi Order of Thousands.

Ahem second best..

Oh yeah forgot about Revan for a second.

Hold up, because Kavar was the leader of the jedi guardians, he must be the best duelist? More likely he would be the Mace Windu of the order, not necessarily the best.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
We have the fact that he beat the known best saber user in the Jedi Order of Thousands.

Proof?

Originally posted by Kas'Im
Hold up, because Kavar was the leader of the jedi guardians, he must be the best duelist? More likely he would be the Mace Windu of the order, not necessarily the best.

^^This is Exactly right. Any statement that is a "more then likely" statement is speculation. Even this statemenet is speculation (the fact that he was "the Mace Windu of the order"

Again, ALL have is speculation. Nothing more. You then proceed to "Prove" your speculation with even more speculation. It doesn't work. You need solid facts, none of which you have.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Proof?



^^This is Exactly right.

Again, ALL have is speculation. Nothing more. You then proceed to "Prove" your speculation with even more speculation. It doesn't work. You need solid facts, none of which you have.


Actually Mace Windu wasn't the leader, Yoda was.. And Yoda was the best. Malak might not have been a lightsaber prodigy, but he was better than everybody but Revan and whoever cut off his jaw. Not to mention that probably happened before he found the starforge and became more powerful.

Yes I know this, what does this have to do with anything?



You see, the problem is that your equating force power with saber skill

your using the equation:

Force Power=Saber skill

Malak getting stronger with the Starforge has nothing to do with his saber skill. It has to do with his force powers. That equation is flawed because if force power equals saber skill, then saber skill MUST equal force power. This is obviously not true, given examples such as Kas'Im, or Cin Drillag, etc. etc. Who are just good at saber dueling, and not so great with the force.

So if saber skill does not equal force power, then force power does not equal saber skill. Therefore, given that Revan and Malak were in fact quite powerful with the force (which we DO know) then we can only conclude that they were powerful with the force, because force power does not equal saber skill and vise virsa.

Therefore your conclusion that Revan must be a saber master of the highest caliber is flawed based on that premise. So then it is inconclusive how good or bad Revan was with a lightsaber, which means calling him "a saber prodigy" is nothing near fact.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Yes I know this, what does this have to do with anything?



You see, the problem is that your equating force power with saber skill

your using the equation:

Force Power=Saber skill

Malak getting stronger with the Starforge has nothing to do with his saber skill. It has to do with his force powers. That equation is flawed because if force power equals saber skill, then saber skill MUST equal force power. This is obviously not true, given examples such as Kas'Im, or Cin Drillag, etc. etc. Who are just good at saber dueling, and not so great with the force.

So if saber skill does not equal force power, then force power does not equal saber skill. Therefore, given that Revan and Malak were in fact quite powerful with the force (which we DO know) then we can only conclude that they were powerful with the force, because force power does not equal saber skill and vise virsa.

Therefore your conclusion that Revan must be a saber master of the highest caliber is flawed based on that premise. So then it is inconclusive how good or bad Revan was with a lightsaber, which means calling him "a saber prodigy" is nothing near fact.

You do understand that your dueling abilities are largely due to force mastery right? Anakin became one of the best in what, less than 10 years? This is what you're failing to understand. Force mastery DOES matter in saber dueling.
And on the other hand, if you suck with a saber, you suck with a saber. You have Maul, who is probably NOT on par with Qui Gonn or Obiwan, tear the two up. Then you have Luke, who can barely fight with a saber, owning Vader. Why? Because of his force potential+force abilities.

Bane was just assuming the title of dark lord of the sith. Plus he was just fighting against one of the best duelists in the galaxy before he used said attack.... of course he would be tired. The attack Bane used was a blast of force energy. Kyp, according to how you described, used telekenesis. Vastly different.

This feat is significant, but this does not translate well into an arena fight. Revan can defend against these attacks with his own telekenesis. He has formally learned force storm, enough to interrupt Kyp. Aside from that he knew a multitude of other dark side technique's that put Bane in awe, as well as a host of other lightside abilities that Malak replied as being even greater.




I want proof of how much electrical energy is required to kill one. I believe in the actual comic he directed a lightning bolt to hit the leviathan. Not the same as a force storm.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You do understand that your dueling abilities are largely due to force mastery right? Anakin became one of the best in what, less than 10 years? This is what you're failing to understand. Force mastery DOES matter in saber dueling.
And on the other hand, if you suck with a saber, you suck with a saber. You have Maul, who is probably NOT on par with Qui Gonn or Obiwan, tear the two up. Then you have Luke, who can barely fight with a saber, owning Vader. Why? Because of his force potential+force abilities.

Thank you for proving my point, and contradicting yourself in your own paragraph.

Here you have Maul, who is not Qui-Gon in the force department, put Qui-Gon down easily with a saber (saber /= force power)

Then you have Luke or Anakin, who is very powerful force wise, who are good with a saber.

Then you have Kas'Im who is amazing with a saber, like Maul, but are so so with the force. Or Cin Drillag, who is the battle master of the PT era, and yet meh force wise.

Since equations must be equal (as you'd have noted had you payed attention to my previous posts) then if dueling ability does not equal force power (like the examples of Maul, and Cin, and Kas'Im), then Force power cannot equal saber skill.

You cant have:

Force Power = Saber Skill

and also have:

Saber skill /= Force power

It does not make logical sense, its a contradiction. It must be either Does, or Does Not. Since the likes of Maul, Cin, Kas'Im prove that Saber skill /= Force power then it becomes a Does Not statement. Obviously though, there in fact ARE people who have both Saber skill AND Force power, but since we've proven that Saber skill /= Force power then any people who actually do have saber skill and force power are simply just lucky, its a coincidence. It is however, not a necessity for them to have saber skill, as it makes no logical sense.

Therefore, simply because Revan was powerful force wise, it does not necessarily follow that he had acute saber skill. And since it does not necessarily follow, then it is a unknown. And since it is an unknown, then it is NOT a fact, as you've seemingly decided it should be.

i assume revan might use Soresu by the way he held his lightsaber on the leviathen bridge deck, very similar to kenobis stance of soresu on utapau before he crushed the 4 magnaguards

Originally posted by King Adas
Hold up, because Kavar was the leader of the jedi guardians, he must be the best duelist? More likely he would be the Mace Windu of the order, not necessarily the best.

Didn't it state in KOTOR 2 that Malak defeated Kavar?

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Thank you for proving my point, and contradicting yourself in your own paragraph.

Here you have Maul, who is not Qui-Gon in the force department, put Qui-Gon down easily with a saber (saber /= force power)

Then you have Luke or Anakin, who is very powerful force wise, who are good with a saber.

Then you have Kas'Im who is amazing with a saber, like Maul, but are so so with the force. Or Cin Drillag, who is the battle master of the PT era, and yet meh force wise.

Since equations must be equal (as you'd have noted had you payed attention to my previous posts) then if dueling ability does not equal force power (like the examples of Maul, and Cin, and Kas'Im), then Force power cannot equal saber skill.

You cant have:

Force Power = Saber Skill

and also have:

Saber skill /= Force power

It does not make logical sense, its a contradiction. It must be either Does, or Does Not. Since the likes of Maul, Cin, Kas'Im prove that Saber skill /= Force power then it becomes a Does Not statement. Obviously though, there in fact ARE people who have both Saber skill AND Force power, but since we've proven that Saber skill /= Force power then any people who actually do have saber skill and force power are simply just lucky, its a coincidence. It is however, not a necessity for them to have saber skill, as it makes no logical sense.

Therefore, simply because Revan was powerful force wise, it does not necessarily follow that he had acute saber skill. And since it does not necessarily follow, then it is a unknown. And since it is an unknown, then it is NOT a fact, as you've seemingly decided it should be.

I fail to see how I contradicted myself. Your whole argument is if A=B, then B=A, which is incorrect.

i know i'm jumpin in to the conversation but anomoly i think what they are saying with the whole force power=saber skills is that if you're uber with the force and give yourself to the force going just off of it's will while fighting with a lightsaber you're more than liekly going to win because it's the force guiding you not yourself. " the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the force." so i think they didn't explain that part well enough.

so i think thats what they were saying someone tell me if i'm wrong on that though.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
i know i'm jumpin in to the conversation but anomoly i think what they are saying with the whole force power=saber skills is that if you're uber with the force and give yourself to the force going just off of it's will while fighting with a lightsaber you're more than liekly going to win because it's the force guiding you not yourself. " the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the force." so i think they didn't explain that part well enough.

so i think thats what they were saying someone tell me if i'm wrong on that though.

I'm not denying that it indeed helps on that basic level, but even if an uber powerful force user "gave himself to the force" and had no prior saber training (or was just shitty with a saber) went up against someone who was not powerful with the force, but extremely amazing with a saber, the person who "gave himself to the force" still wouldn't last long against a saber master. It might give him an extra 30 seconds to live or so, but other then that it wouldn't make that much difference.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I fail to see how I contradicted myself. Your whole argument is if A=B, then B=A, which is incorrect.

Then you fail to comprehend basic logic. Which is not my fault. Maybe you should read it more carefully. Its logically correct, what your saying makes no sense at all, and, is logically contradictory.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
I'm not denying that it indeed helps on that basic level, but even if an uber powerful force user "gave himself to the force" and had no prior saber training (or was just shitty with a saber) went up against someone who was not powerful with the force, but extremely amazing with a saber, the person who "gave himself to the force" still wouldn't last long against a saber master. It might give him an extra 30 seconds to live or so, but other then that it wouldn't make that much difference.



Then you fail to comprehend basic logic. Which is not my fault. Maybe you should read it more carefully. Its logically correct, what your saying makes no sense at all, and, is logically contradictory.


Once again, your logic is if A=B, then B=A.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Once again, your logic is if A=B, then B=A.

Pray tell, what are you talking about?

Originally posted by King Adas
Pray tell, what are you talking about?

Indeed...

who knows

Perhaps if you actually read what I was talking about, then you'd understand it.

It is indeed A=B then B=A. What your failing to comprehend is WHY this is the case.

I will not repeat it because of other peoples lack of comprehension of it. So go back, read it. Then, come up (if you can) with a proper response to it. Thats the way debating works. You should try it sometime.

So far all you've given me is "No, your wrong". Sorry, but in debating, "No" isnt good enough.

Wow owned...

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Perhaps if you actually read what I was talking about, then you'd understand it.

It is indeed A=B then B=A. What your failing to comprehend is WHY this is the case.

I will not repeat it because of other peoples lack of comprehension of it. So go back, read it. Then, come up (if you can) with a proper response to it. Thats the way debating works. You should try it sometime.

So far all you've given me is "No, your wrong". Sorry, but in debating, "No" isnt good enough.


Why is it A=B, and B=A? I don't remember what we were arguing about but I'm pretty sure that because youre powerful in the force, it does NOT necessarily mean you're good with a lightsaber, and vice versa. See Darth Maul, Ulic Qel Droma, I guess even Kyp Durron or whatever. Now apparently if I'm correct, you are stating Revan is NOT good with a saber just because he's good with the force, using some of those rare cases as backup. But you fail to realize that the things Revan did make him BETTER than good, and could categorize him as a saber prodigy. It doesn't have to explicitly state something for it to be true. Revan beat Malak, Revan beat Bastilla, Revan beat Bandon, Revan beat an empowered Malak, and Revan never lost. Revan was the most powerful with the force and the saber in an order of tens of thousands. I'd say that classifies him as pretty damn good, if not a lightsaber prodigy.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Why is it A=B, and B=A? I don't remember what we were arguing about but I'm pretty sure that because youre powerful in the force, it does NOT necessarily mean you're good with a lightsaber, and vice versa. See Darth Maul, Ulic Qel Droma, I guess even Kyp Durron or whatever. Now apparently if I'm correct, you are stating Revan is NOT good with a saber just because he's good with the force, using some of those rare cases as backup. But you fail to realize that the things Revan did make him BETTER than good, and could categorize him as a saber prodigy. It doesn't have to explicitly state something for it to be true. Revan beat Malak, Revan beat Bastilla, Revan beat Bandon, Revan beat an empowered Malak, and Revan never lost. Revan was the most powerful with the force and the saber in an order of tens of thousands. I'd say that classifies him as pretty damn good, if not a lightsaber prodigy.

How good was Malak in comparison to actual known saber prodigies?

How good was Bandon in comparison to actual known saber prodigies?

How good was Bastilla in comparison to actual known saber prodigies?

You don't know. Maybe they all sucked ass at saber dueling. And since Revan beat them, it might put him on the level of say Kit Fisto or something, hardly a "saber prodigy" status. The fact is you don't know, so saying that Revan beat all these people is useless, because you don't know anything about they're actual saber abilities. Malak was obviously a hell of a lot better then most of the rest of people Revan beat, but how good was he actually? There's no way to tell. So it means that Revan COULD be as good as Windu, or he could be as good as someone like Kit Fisto. Since it could be either or, calling him a "saber prodigy" isn't justified at all, since you just don't know.

TAK (traditional analysis of knowledge) is the way that we know if in fact we have actual knowledge about something.

It states that: S knows P = df. (i) S believes P (ii) P is true, (iii) S is justified in believing P

So here is what your saying "YOU know Revan is a saber prodigy"

(i) Do you believe it is true? Yes

(ii) Is it true? No, it cant be, given the lack of evidence. You cant have truth without it being absolute. Since there are blatant counterexamples to your argument, it cant be true. Since there are examples of something that defeats the (A=B) argument, by proving that (B /=A), which then makes the actual statement (A/=B) which makes (A=B) false. And since it is false it is not true.

(iii) Are you justified in believing its true? No, because you have no actual evidence of it being justified, because you don't have evidence of it being true. You cant justify something that isn't true. Therefore you have no justification.

So, all you have is: (i) You believe its true. Unfortunately given that TAK, which is the universal calculator for knowledge, says you lack 2 of the 3 components that are required for knowledge (facts etc) then all you have is untrue, unjustified opinion. Which, isn't good enough to argue with, Unfortunately.

lmao, that was some serious ownage.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
How good was Malak in comparison to actual known saber prodigies?

How good was Bandon in comparison to actual known saber prodigies?

How good was Bastilla in comparison to actual known saber prodigies?

You don't know. Maybe they all sucked ass at saber dueling. And since Revan beat them, it might put him on the level of say Kit Fisto or something, hardly a "saber prodigy" status. The fact is you don't know, so saying that Revan beat all these people is useless, because you don't know anything about they're actual saber abilities. Malak was obviously a hell of a lot better then most of the rest of people Revan beat, but how good was he actually? There's no way to tell. So it means that Revan COULD be as good as Windu, or he could be as good as someone like Kit Fisto. Since it could be either or, calling him a "saber prodigy" isn't justified at all, since you just don't know.
Ahhhh so youre basing your argument on your opinion that Revan could possibly be only as good as Kit Fisto. So what you're saying is out of the tens of thousands of Jedi at the time, the best one rivals kit fisto? What an argument. Btw, did i mention Yoda WASNT a lightsaber prodigy either, yet he still was undefeated? Hmmm interesting.





um what LOL.. Do you understand the concept of a star wars versus forum? You are prancing around with "Truth is absolute", when in the star wars universe, very few things are absolute, and they usually involve canon sources. Do you know WHAT happens when we don't have a canon source to give us the absolute truth? We argue logically. We logically deduce. So your whole argument based on truth being absolute is quite flawed.


Yes I'm justified. I see Yoda and Mace being #1 and #2, and they're both incredible with a saber. I see Exar Kun and Ulic being #1 and #2, and they're both incredible with a saber. But when it gets to Revan, we have no evidence? Please Anomaly, I can at least use logical deduction in most instances while your argument is based on "absence of proof", because "truth is absolute". REALLY great argument.



And unfortunately you fail to comprehend the concept of a star wars versus forum and logical debating through logical deduction. Your philosophical "truth is absolute" nonsense is thrown out when you realize there's a fraction "absolute truth" in the star wars universe, while the other 99% is up for debate. Welcome to the Star Wars Versus Forum.

Seeing as you didn't address anything I actually said, your wrong.

Go read up on the traditional analysis of knowledge, since you obviously have absolutely no idea what it is. Which is not my fault, its not up to me to teach you how logic works and how things are addressed in epistemology, simply because you dont know or dont understand them does not make you correct. So go learn it. When you do that then come back here and make relevant points. Until then, stop doing the same things, which I have pointed out, are completely fallacious, and don't even adhere to what is acknowledged as the basic necessities for knowledge.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Seeing as you didn't address anything I actually said, your wrong.

Go read up on the traditional analysis of knowledge, since you obviously have absolutely no idea what it is. Which is not my fault, its not up to me to teach you how logic works and how things are addressed in epistemology, simply because you dont know or dont understand them does not make you correct. So go learn it. When you do that then come back here and make relevant points. Until then, stop doing the same things, which I have pointed out, are completely fallacious, and don't even adhere to what is acknowledged as the basic necessities for knowledge.


What didn't I address. I think I addressed your "truth is absolute" nonsense perfectly. I don't need for you to spew out the "traditional analysis of knowledge". Save that for EOD. Let me simplify for you. Character X's abilities aren't 100% known, Character Y's abilities aren't 100% known.. Solution.. Ah yes, logical deduction. If we went around with your "Truth is absolute" logic, this forum wouldn't exist.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
What didn't I address. I think I addressed your "truth is absolute" nonsense perfectly. I don't need for you to spew out the "traditional analysis of knowledge". Save that for EOD. Let me simplify for you. Character X's abilities aren't 100% known, Character Y's abilities aren't 100% known.. Solution.. Ah yes, logical deduction. If we went around with your "Truth is absolute" logic, this forum wouldn't exist.

You obviously still have no idea what I'm talking about. Your only choosing to hear little parts and saying "this is teh wronggg!!!" when you don't even understand the overall concept. Again, I'm not going to give you a crash course in logic and epistemology. In terms of the basics of language and logic what you said is incorrect. In terms of epistemological fact what you said is incorrect. Because this is a matter of underlying foundations on which knowledge is made up, it makes absolutely no difference in which context it is applied. The fact is, that if you don't have the necessary parts that make up knowledge, then you DO NOT have knowledge. The Star Wars universe does not fall out of these set foundational rules, because they are necessary NO MATTER WHERE they are applied. Maybe, if you had read about it, or had some basic skills in logic, then you'd know. But again, I'm not explaining it to you. Go learn it yourself.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
You obviously still have no idea what I'm talking about. Your only choosing to hear little parts and saying "this is teh wronggg!!!" when you don't even understand the overall concept. Again, I'm not going to give you a crash course in logic and epistemology. In terms of the basics of language and logic what you said is incorrect. In terms of epistemological fact what you said is incorrect. Because this is a matter of underlying foundations on which knowledge is made up, it makes absolutely no difference in which context it is applied. The fact is, that if you don't have the necessary parts that make up knowledge, then you DO NOT have knowledge. The Star Wars universe does not fall out of these set foundational rules, because they are necessary NO MATTER WHERE they are applied. Maybe, if you had read about it, or had some basic skills in logic, then you'd know. But again, I'm not explaining it to you. Go learn it yourself.

And once again, instead of preaching to me about how I lack logic, maybe you should really sit down and think about what you're saying, as it applies to the entire SW Universe. You can't just pick and choose, otherwise your logic covers about 99% of the unknown star wars universe, and destroys any need for logical debating on a star wars theory. I don't need any crash course in knowledge or logic. Instead I would like for you to think about what you're saying, instead of trying to spew out irrelevant information pertaining to this and coming off as a quasi intellectual. I had enough of that on the other forum.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
You obviously still have no idea what I'm talking about. Your only choosing to hear little parts and saying "this is teh wronggg!!!" when you don't even understand the overall concept. Again, I'm not going to give you a crash course in logic and epistemology. In terms of the basics of language and logic what you said is incorrect. In terms of epistemological fact what you said is incorrect. Because this is a matter of underlying foundations on which knowledge is made up, it makes absolutely no difference in which context it is applied. The fact is, that if you don't have the necessary parts that make up knowledge, then you DO NOT have knowledge. The Star Wars universe does not fall out of these set foundational rules, because they are necessary NO MATTER WHERE they are applied. Maybe, if you had read about it, or had some basic skills in logic, then you'd know. But again, I'm not explaining it to you. Go learn it yourself.


*Draws a lightsaber from beneath a black robe and ignites it, casting a crimson shadow over his deeply lined face*

If you battle with my Apprentice, you shall battle with me!!!

Originally posted by Darth Sexiest
*Draws a lightsaber from beneath a black robe and ignites it, casting a crimson shadow over his deeply lined face*

If you battle with my Apprentice, you shall battle with me!!!


Hmm...is this going too far?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
And once again, instead of preaching to me about how I lack logic, maybe you should really sit down and think about what you're saying, as it applies to the entire SW Universe. You can't just pick and choose, otherwise your logic covers about 99% of the unknown star wars universe, and destroys any need for logical debating on a star wars theory. I don't need any crash course in knowledge or logic. Instead I would like for you to think about what you're saying, instead of trying to spew out irrelevant information pertaining to this and coming off as a quasi intellectual. I had enough of that on the other forum.

No actually, it destroys nothing, as a lot of SW material fits well within the TAK. Unfortunately, in this instance, it does not.

Almost all things in Star Wars that have sufficent evidence and can be justified can be considered knowledge. Again, IF you understood it, then you'd understand what I mean.

It does not undermine anything, its been used in debate since Descartes. It, in fact, is a major help in debating, and actually further improves upon what we know by giving it a foundation in which to steam out of. ALL I did in this instance is disprove that it is a fact that Revan is a saber prodigy. I in no way undermined this forum and debating, as almost ALL actual fact (like DE Sidious being the strongest Sith lord for example) does in fact fit perfectly into the TAK and is thus considered actual knowledge. I guarantee that probably 75% of all things taken as fact on this forum are in fact justified and true, Revan being a saber prodigy however, is not.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
No actually, it destroys nothing, as a lot of SW material fits well within the TAK. Unfortunately, in this instance, it does not.

Almost all things in Star Wars that have sufficent evidence and can be justified can be considered knowledge. Again, IF you understood it, then you'd understand what I mean.

It does not undermine anything, its been used in debate since Descartes. It, in fact, is a major help in debating, and actually further improves upon what we know by giving it a foundation in which to steam out of. ALL I did in this instance is disprove that it is a fact that Revan is a saber prodigy. I in no way undermined this forum and debating, as almost ALL actual fact (like DE Sidious being the strongest Sith lord for example) does in fact fit perfectly into the TAK and is thus considered actual knowledge. I guarantee that probably 75% of all things taken as fact on this forum are in fact justified and true, Revan being a saber prodigy however, is not.

Jesus christ, you still don't get it. 99% of these versus threads are pure spculation. Besides the obvious canon quotes of Yoda, Sidious, and Luke, EVERYTHING else is speculation that could be deduced through logical arguments. Since you seem incapable of grasping this concept I'll give you a simple example.

Premise: Marka Ragnos is the most powerful of the ancient sith and likely more powerful than any other except for Sidious
Evidence: Very little
Logical Deduction: He ruled for a century with an iron fist, he died of old age, and the two most powerful sith after him cowered to his image. He was THE dark lord who crowned other DLOTS, he was THE Dark Lord who spoke for the ancient sith..

Now, as you see, there's very little evidence on Ragnos, but we can logically deduce that he was at the top. Is it absolute truth? Certainly not. Neither is 99% of star wars.

Jesus christ, you still don't get it. 99% of these versus threads are pure spculation.

Bull crap. 99% have speculation in them, but 99% of MY post are based on logical deductions. I see you weren't around here a year ago when all threads were based on logic.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Jesus christ, you still don't get it. 99% of these versus threads are pure spculation.

Bull crap. 99% have speculation in them, but 99% of MY post are based on logical deductions. I see you weren't around here a year ago when all threads were based on logic.

1. Who the hell was talking about you?
2. You've proven my point
3. Ive read arguments from a year ago, and as far as I can say, a year ago there was no logic. There was nothing but Ancient Sith fanboyism without any logic in an argument. "OMG THEY CAN CHUCK STARS!!". There's a LOT more logic now then there was a year ago, which clearly explains why none of those people are here now. You seem to be going the exact same way.

In all seriousness, I've been too hard on Glentract today. I was wrong, and it kind've shames me for being as cruel to him as I was. I sounded like Janus or Illustrious.

Though, I do agree, Glentract - some of the arguments and claims made by you and your ilk have been very odd. I bring up the old Dooku > Sidious debates; Ragnos owns all (despite being an unknown); Exar > Luke. DE Sidious > Luke (IKC's theory); Ancient Sith 'hurl stars'; Sadow's powers being purely from him (despite being performed by Force-based technology).

The term "bullshit" would summarize all of those arguments up.

Dooku > Sidious debates;

For one, you can't call the misguided actions of some of us old time members the misguided actions of all of us old time members. This argument was based on what they knew at the time. It's been disproven as far as I'm concerned, but hey, times change. There were times when we'd call Revan the best of all time. Not true any more. They just went on what they knew at the time.

Ragnos owns all (despite being an unknown);

All? I never recall saying that he owns all. These arguements took place BEFORE LOTF or DN were written. Even now I think even you'd say he's still way up there.

BTW, what qualifies him as an unknown exactly? We know that he ruled the Sith unchallenged for over a century even though they all hated him and wanted nothing more than to take him down. And we know that his spirit was so powerful that Sadow, who was quite the powerhouse in his own right, feared him. And for the Ancient Sith in general, we know (from PoD) that they had techniques so powerful that Darth Bane doubted that he would ever even ATTEMPT them.

Exar > Luke.

Again, this was before LOTF or DN was written. And even still it might hold true. I recall Lord Darkstar stating that it took the combined strength of the ENTIRE Jedi Order to take him down and that by the time he died he had gotten so powerful that the entire planet shok beneath his feet as he walked.

DE Sidious > Luke (IKC's theory);

Again, you can't call the misguided actions of some of us old time members the misguided actions of all of us old time members

Ancient Sith 'hurl stars';

Due to misinformation. We did the best with what we had though.

Sadow's powers being purely from him (despite being performed by Force-based technology).

Again, due to misinformation. Resources like swcomics.com were unknown to us at that time. We did a lot better with what we had than people (including myself) do now with what they have.

Again, it didnt TAKE all of the combined Jedi to stop Kun, they just USED everybody, to destroy Yavin. It's unknown how many it would take, but we know that to defeat Sidious for good, every jedi's spirit that came before, was used.

Again, it didnt TAKE all of the combined Jedi to stop Kun, they just USED everybody, to destroy Yavin. It's unknown how many it would take,

Wrong. It was specifically stated that it would take all of their strength.

but we know that to defeat Sidious for good, every jedi's spirit that came before, was used.

Prove it.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Again, it didnt TAKE all of the combined Jedi to stop Kun, they just USED everybody, to destroy Yavin. It's unknown how many it would take,


No, it was stated by SOME JEDI that they will gather ALL of the Jedi. So not only are you wrong about the quote, you don't comprehend a fallible character. It's called being safe than sorry.



Crack open Empire's End to the last page.

That's not actually true, nowhere is it steated that it would require the combined might of all the jedi.

exactly

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No, it was stated by SOME JEDI that they will gather ALL of the Jedi. So not only are you wrong about the quote, you don't comprehend a fallible character. It's called being safe than sorry.

The Jedi stated that it would take the combined strength of the entire Order to defeat Exar.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Crack open Empire's End to the last page.

I don't have Empire's End, so I'll settle for a direct quote.

well it took only a single jedi to vanquish palpatines spirit forever. that fat floating jedi

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
The Jedi stated that it would take the combined strength of the entire Order to defeat Exar.
No it didn't. They said they will gather ALL the Jedi. Nobody said how many it would take. Not to mention even if it DID, it's a 3rd party character that doesn't know what he's talking about.





Yes, because he bound his life to the spirit of palpatine, and said every jedi that came before would make sure Palpatine never returned.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No it didn't. They said they will gather ALL the Jedi. Nobody said how many it would take. Not to mention even if it DID, it's a 3rd party character that doesn't know what he's talking about.

So now Jedi don't know what they're talking about?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Yes, because he bound his life to the spirit of palpatine, and said every jedi that came before would make sure Palpatine never returned.

Can you provide a direct quote with page numbers?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
So now Jedi don't know what they're talking about?

#1. It never stated what you said so the point is irrelevant.
#2. Who is an average jedi to KNOW how many Jedi it would take if the quote WAS there?
#3. Brand had the credibility to say how many Jedi he was going to use to stop Palpatine, considering Palpatine was inside of him and he felt his full power.





no its on the last page of Empire's End.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Jesus christ, you still don't get it. 99% of these versus threads are pure spculation. Besides the obvious canon quotes of Yoda, Sidious, and Luke, EVERYTHING else is speculation that could be deduced through logical arguments. Since you seem incapable of grasping this concept I'll give you a simple example.

Premise: Marka Ragnos is the most powerful of the ancient sith and likely more powerful than any other except for Sidious
Evidence: Very little
Logical Deduction: He ruled for a century with an iron fist, he died of old age, and the two most powerful sith after him cowered to his image. He was THE dark lord who crowned other DLOTS, he was THE Dark Lord who spoke for the ancient sith..

Now, as you see, there's very little evidence on Ragnos, but we can logically deduce that he was at the top. Is it absolute truth? Certainly not. Neither is 99% of star wars.

No actually, Ragnos has enough proof of being the most powerful Sith of the ancient sith for it to be considered knowledge. We KNOW that he was, because they're is substantial reasoning to back it up. What we don't know is how powerful he was on the grand scheme of Star Wars. But given all the Sith that were below him, he either a) was more powerful then they were or b) he possessed some kind of ability(s) that they feared.

Unfortunately YOU don't get it, let me make it clear for you. Revan DOES NOT HAVE THE SAME KIND OF EVIDENCE TO BACK UP HIS SABER SKILLS.

There is absolutely no evidence AT ALL about it. Seeing as there is no evidence of how good ANY of the KOTOR characters are at lightsaber dueling on the grand scheme of things, deducing how good Revan was is completely illogical.

YES, he obviously was the best in that era. But what does that mean? It doesn't mean anything, because as I've pointed out in my numerous posts before, Force power DOES NOT equal saber skill, so perhaps everyone in the KOTOR era was pretty damn good with the force, but were absolute crap in terms of lightsaber combat. So that would put Revan as the best of some of some of the worst saber duelists. Which means, on the grand scale, Revan's saber skills would suck. However, MAYBE the KOTOR people were awesome with lightsabers, and maybe then Revan was the best of some of the best, which would put him on a pretty good level in terms of overall saber skill. The problem you encounter logically is proving that the KOTOR characters WERE actually good with lightsabers, because there is no evidence to back it up. Nothing at all. So deducing that Revan was a saber prodigy becomes a huge problem logically as the first premise you are using to argue it falls, because it does not adhere to the TAK, which makes it a faulty premise, which makes the conclusion false.

Basically, it is possible that Revan was a saber prodigy. But it is not a fact that he was. There is not enough proof to make a good premise about it, and the fact of there not being enough proof means the premise isn't good enough to form a valid deductive argument.

Revan being a saber prodigy, even good with a saber is completely speculation. Since it is 50/50, he could be crappy with a saber, or he could be amazing with a saber, but since it is equal both ways, there is absolutely nothing to justify in calling him a saber prodigy.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
#1. It never stated what you said so the point is irrelevant.
#2. Who is an average jedi to KNOW how many Jedi it would take if the quote WAS there?
#3. Brand had the credibility to say how many Jedi he was going to use to stop Palpatine, considering Palpatine was inside of him and he felt his full power.

1. Why do you keep trying to deny fact?
2.An average Jedi? Yo think that an average Jedi would have the influence to rally the entire Jedi Order? It must have been a very wise Master to have that influence.
2. How many Jedi did Brand exactly use? There were maybe five of them alive at the time.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
no its on the last page of Empire's End.

If you can't provide the quote, why should I believe you? Such things are often taken out of context and I'd like to see for myself.

Wow, Glentract....what was the quote? Something funny about Brand and all those who came before him insuring Palpatine never returned? The entirety of Jedi in history?
There's bashing, but then there's willfull ignorance

so um this has gotten completley off topic. by all means keep debating cause thats fun but just remeber your points should proving who would win revan or kyp.