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at the end of COTBP, IMO it seems will and Jack have formed a bond, like friendship, Will helps to resue Jack from the Hangmann he actually risks his life to save Jacks

at the beginning of DMC while talking to beckett Will says he and Jack are more like aquantiences than friends. would you risk your life for an aquatnience????

here is my question: why does will say that? maybe Elizabeth has been talking about Jack for the past year, or talking about how much she misses Jack and being on a pirate adventure, and will knows he cant give her that

I dont know what do u guys think?

I'm happy you brought this up..that line really bothers me cause it suggests that movie one literally meant nothing.all the jack/will friendship stuff were are lies? I doubt it it may have been that will was just trying to convince ol'bucket head that he's not so close to captain sparrow so he would let both him and liz go but he looks as if he means it so I guess the line is there to seuggest/explain the act Will is going to do in AWE. that he doesn't care for jack as a friend just someone he knows,used to likeand trust and looks up to for great plans when he seems to be on his side and that he doesn't feel so guilty for betraying him cause he's only aquientence not a friend. that's sad! cause will might not be my fave character but I liked looking at him as the straight character,the on ethat will never go wrong.anyways hope I'm wrong(am probably lol) i hope your posts prove me wrong.

I know it bothers me too..It should a tiger doesnt change his stripes..IMO their friendship is not going to last. He turns on Jack in AWE..*******..seriously his character pisses me off so much.

jack's character in T&T's words is actually returning/being revealed to who he really is..which is a brave man who is capable of love IMO

I think will is doing this also he's returning back to the discriminitive character he once was althought things have still chjanged in his personality IMO, he will always have that horrible habbit.

yes Will's character bugs the crap out of me, he is wishy washy like he dosent know what he wants:
by the end of COTBP he seems like he wants to be a pirate, Liz even calls him a pirate
By the beginning of DMC he seems like he back to his old ways, dismissing the factthat he and Jack were actually friends at the end of COTBP. I think this line was maybe preparing the audience for the betrayal by Will upon Jack in DMC and AWE. Will is in fact squareing with the Pirate in his blood that Jack warned him about in COTBP

yeah I agree. and the line "more aquentiences than friends" makes it reasonable for him to turn on jack cause no one can say "hey I thought they were good friends how come he's betrayed his friend?" anyways I know this is off topic but does anyone know an email address or something of Ted or Terry's cause I was just thinking maybe if we contacted them in some way and convinced them to pay as much attention to us as they do to KTTC that would be great..I mean I know it's the "official website" and all that but people have different point of views and we've worked harder than those KTTC people ever did I LOVE LovelyOne's theories and all the other stuff people notice and we have so many good threads and great fun RPs ,we've digged really deep (heck someone even noticed the STONE on jack's RINGS for god sake did the KTTC people inspect will's necklace?I think not.)and i think they should take the time to read this point of view and post here.i don't expect them to change the script or anything just cause of us lol(wouldn't that be great?) but I DO think it'll effect their furture decisions just really small decisions. maybe they DO read our posts who knows but better safe than sorry! sorry for rambling on like that. so does anyone know how we may contact them?(sorry again for the off topicness)

I wish I know their email or what ever.

What bugs me with KttC is they really are very W/E based in the spoilers and specs section..kate said they delete J/E spoilers and such with no real proof that they are wrong. They tell J/E supporters to shut up through PM in the thunderdome when you show a lot of passion towards J.E (they did me anyway)

It wasnt about the way I spoke. It was about me posting to much J/E in the tunderdome they even complained in the actual thunderdoome itself too, telling me not to post so much J/E stuff yet the W/E shippers go on and on.

The only place where we can really talk J/E is in the spyglass..and there if you post speculation/spoilers it gets deleted..

I think they know the important people are looking at the speculation and spoilers section and they keep the J/E happy shippers out...they just keep them out of there in general actually. So many J/E shippers on that site have a fear of going into the specs and spoilers section..now I know why cuz they rip you apart and chase you away, or they ban you.

All the "important people" see is the praise towards the E/W spoilers..which is sneaky IMO KttC EW shipper mods know what they are doing..why is it ALL E/W shippers who are the mods in that section?

suspicious

that's EXACTLY MY POINT...if T&T keep seeing that the W/E stuff is being appreciated by all the fans they'll think that they're keeping everyone satisfied and they'll keep on continuing that's why I get the feeling KTTC(isn't it funny how the people in the site are bashing the person they got the name from lol I don't recall WILL ever telling ANYONE to:keep to the code!) doesn't want J/L mentioned to give the impression that there aren't much fans of the coupling around. as god as my witness..as god as my witness...I WILL FIND A WAY TO TALK TO T OR T AND I'LL INFORM THEM THAT WE"VE ALL BEEN wronged..it's no fair!!! if they only took the time to read HALF of the new and some of the old threads they'd know just how many people think differently

On Wordplayer.com which is the T/T site, you cannot post spoilers or suggest endings for AWE because everything is an idea. And they have already been sued by a couple of people claiming they stole their screenplay, story or idea, etc. So, I think T/T are cautious about reading suggested endings and/or spoilers and that may be why they are deleted from Disney's KTTC. Hey they can gladly have mine.

I posted here on Sept 22nd my idea for an ending to AWE and found a post on another site posted on Sept 24 that was real similar to what I said, but I can back up my reasoning from my look at the scripts, the back stories in evidence and my study of the middle or second child of same sex siblings.

So, did I answer your question or confuse us all more. Sorry if I did.

they probably do look around the net alot..

but Pirates life fo works on set..and he had no idea how huge J/L had become (which doesnt bode too well for us)

..heck there are even entire sites dedicated to the pairing.

but I think they do look around the net for other sites..honestly even on non PotC boards and someone puts up a poll J/E wins out all the time. by FAR!

Also disney did visit youtube and they saw the MASSIVE surge of J/E vids and stuff and deleted them due to copy right infringment so I think they are aware of the hige buzz around this pairing.

also the 1 billion didnt get there because Will was with the girl Will is not the money of the movie. Jack is and he was with Elizabeth throughout most of it.

on this site it was like 20 something to 2

on KttC its 217 JE vs 87 EW shippers..dunno if thats still the stats though

oh thanks you just mademe feel much more better..thank you. you're right. i mean they don't just make a movie based on what one single little site wants them to believe *sigh of relief*

Thanks Calypso for the info

Tee_pirategirl

I learned in film stuides that the internet is now a crucial place for info when it comes to how well a movie is recieved..Its also a great marketing tool with online trailers..Its a great place for movie makers to look to see how well their film is being recieved by the general PUBLIC and not the critics

thats all that matters really. The public's view on it all. And its very J/E almost every where I go.

even KttC has more J/E supporters on there than W/E supporters.

Originally posted by LovelyOne
even KttC has more J/E supporters on there than W/E supporters.





jack and Liz are so meant to be!

I was thinking. Even Jack shows hardly any concern about Will hanging there. I was like " huh? I thought they were friends??"

then as soon as Will mentioned Liz was in danger Jack (who's walking away) suddenly stops dead in his tracks. Only then he starts to try and escape. Jack sitting there means he wont die if he plays the part I think.

.If not then its still obvious Jack only musters the bravery to escape as soon as will mentions Elizabeth being in danger.

Originally posted by LovelyOne
I was thinking. Even Jack shows hardly any concern about Will hanging there. I was like " huh? I thought they were friends??"

then as soon as Will mentioned Liz was in danger Jack (who's walking away) suddenly stops dead in his tracks. Only then he starts to try and escape. Jack sitting there means he wont die if he plays the part I think.

.If not then its still obvious Jack only musters the bravery to escape as soon as will mentions Elizabeth being in danger.

I noticed that too. as soon as he said Elizabeth is in danger Jack does stop dead in his tracks
I dont know I mean tome something fishy is going on between will and Jack in DMC
IMO

Ya this line has been knawing at me since i heard it too....i felt that bond and connection by the end of COTBP too....so when i heard more aquaintences than friends...i was like WTF!! and then he still correct Beckett when he just called him JACK SPARROW...Will said "Capitan"! if he shows that much respect to him then why just call him aquaintance!?

Originally posted by PirateDiva
Ya this line has been knawing at me since i heard it too....i felt that bond and connection by the end of COTBP too....so when i heard more aquaintences than friends...i was like WTF!! and then he still correct Beckett when he just called him JACK SPARROW...Will said "Capitan"! if he shows that much respect to him then why just call him aquaintance!?

some thing else I noticed on the Captian scene
When Beckett said Jack Sparrow, Elizabeth and Will both counter it with CAPTAIN JACK SPARROW
If you notice the way Elizabeth says captain, she looks really pissed that Beckett did not respect Jack and call him Captain Jack Sparrow
now Will says it yes but, right after he says it, he glances over at liz and then looks down at the ground

that was odd to me

I think the real significant bond/relationship was actually Jack/Liz in movie 1. It seems like the Will/Jack thing should be the most important but its not..they chose not to continue that theme...they actually continued the J/E bond/relationship. That island scene with Liz in movie one was probably the most significant moment for Jack. (even Johnny says this on the lost disc edition)

But they also frigging cut the scene that is vital to movie 2 and why Jack is behaving the way he does around Elizabeth. Its all because of that Island encounter with her when she burned the rum. He's met his equal..his soul mate in her. These two had a far more important meeting of characters than W/E & J/W..and they had a far more significant scene together..the ISLAND scene that was both characters laid bare for what they really are(literraly layers stripped off). Its the most telling moment of Jack sparrow (according to Johnny and the writers/director) Its also the most telling moment of Elizabeth I think too. Its who both people really are underneath everything.

Will is not even given a scene like this.


They put THESE two together to show this depth in both characters for a REASON why did they feel it more important for her to have this particular telling moment with Jack and not Will and why did they choose to show this particular telling moment of Jack with Elizabeth and NOT WITH THE WHELPY BOY??

very interesting

Why does she not have a scene like this with Will..EVER? if its really him shes supposed to have depth with etc etc?

Originally posted by shannstar79
some thing else I noticed on the Captian scene
When Beckett said Jack Sparrow, Elizabeth and Will both counter it with CAPTAIN JACK SPARROW
If you notice the way Elizabeth says captain, she looks really pissed that Beckett did not respect Jack and call him Captain Jack Sparrow
now Will says it yes but, right after he says it, he glances over at liz and then looks down at the ground

that was odd to me

Yes ur right the both countered it with Captain but then Will look at Liz and then looked to the ground and stopped saying anything and then only Liz continued saying CAPTAIN JACK SPARROW!! Hmmm i think Will was already showing signs of Jealousy!!!

YEP,
thats kind of why I think maybe Liz has been mentioning Jack and Pirates (durring the time laps in between COTBP and DMC) Will shows signs of jelousy right off the bat IMO

Originally posted by LovelyOne
I think the real significant bond/relationship was actually Jack/Liz in movie 1. It seems like the Will/Jack thing should be the most important but its not..they chose not to continue that theme...they actually continued the J/E bond/relationship. That island scene with Liz in movie one was probably the most significant moment for Jack. (even Johnny says this on the lost disc edition)

But they also frigging cut the scene that is vital to movie 2 and why Jack is behaving the way he does around Elizabeth. Its all because of that Island encounter with her when she burned the rum. He's met his equal..his soul mate in her. These two had a far more important meeting of characters than W/E & J/W..and they had a far more significant scene together..the ISLAND scene that was both characters laid bare for what they really are(literraly layers stripped off). Its the most telling moment of Jack sparrow (according to Johnny and the writers/director) Its also the most telling moment of Elizabeth I think too. Its who both people really are underneath everything.

Will is not even given a scene like this.


They put THESE two together to show this depth in both characters for a REASON why did they feel it more important for her to have this particular telling moment with Jack and not Will and why did they choose to show this particular telling moment of Jack with Elizabeth and NOT WITH THE WHELPY BOY??

very interesting

Why does she not have a scene like this with Will..EVER? if its really him shes supposed to have depth with etc etc?

Sometimes i get the feeling that even from the beginng (COTBP) the Writers never really wanted us to get comfortable with Will/Elizabeth! Because ur very right Lovelyone there is never really a moment when Will and Liz connect...and honestly i dont think Will truely knows what Liz is fully capable of, he dosent really know her!!

AGREED^^

and on the captain! thing

she says it twice..then we meet him and he's in a coffin so strange how even before the wedding was disrupted...she looks as if she is mourning the death of someone..and Jack is clearly the person on her mind..and has been for a while..because of that look Will gives..like jealousy "ohh she's showing how much she loves JACK again" kinda look

Ya....that was a definate jealous look right there!! and just how the whole day came about you know? like how it was raining and it just didnt look like it was a wedding...so like whether it was beckett who stopped the wedding or the rain something would have eventually made the wedding come a hault....Like the marriage was never meant to be!!

Originally posted by PirateDiva
Ya....that was a definate jealous look right there!! and just how the whole day came about you know? like how it was raining and it just didnt look like it was a wedding...so like whether it was beckett who stopped the wedding or the rain something would have eventually made the wedding come a hault....Like the marriage was never meant to be!!

RIGHT THE WEDDING WAS NEVER MEANT TO BE
Beckett could have invaded at any time but it just so happened to be at their wedding
what do you know
fate intervened

Beckett didnt intervene it was fate. and fate was jack

You know, when I first saw the movie, and all the other times I've seen it as well, this line has bothered me so much. I was thinking the same thing, "I thought they were friends" but what I came up with is that Will may have just said that so Beckett won't have something against him... I don't know though.

Wrong, wrong, wrong....When Beckett mentions that Jack is Will's friend, Will is being cautious. He's already in trouble for helping Jack, and he's suspicious of Beckett. He doesn't want Beckett to know too much about how close he and Jack actually are.


Of course, Will is not experienced enough to mask his emotions, but he's getting there. Beckett is just excellent at manipulation. Also, you have to remember, Will and Elizabeth probably have not seen Jack since he escaped...so they aren't building a friendship with him.


The wedding is meant to be...but Beckett timed his arrival to break up the wedding, to show everyone who's in charge now, and because it would be more motivation to get everyone to do what he wants them to do.


All the foreshadowing isn't foreshadowing, but more of a ploy to get you to believe something, while something else is lurking under the depths and is just biding its time to jump out and catch you off guard.


As for Will not repeating the "Captain" bit, I think he realized he had just made a mistake, and was silently berating himself for it. He shouldn't have acted so familiar with Jack Sparrow, because then Beckett has something more to use against him.


This might be an example of reading just a teeny bit too much into a scene. Just a bit.

i dont think its reading too much into the scene.
it was a rainy terrible day, not a day for a wedding. thats fate.
though i do agree with you on beckett timing his arrival-that's not fate, he planned that.
though he does say that fate line, her going into much trouble for JS-these are lines that there is something wrong with their relationship

and will-i dont think he's jealous, i think surreal is right about him realizing he made a mistake...idk, maybe he's jealous-but to me at this point he doesn't seem aware of how elizabeth feels...or is going to feel, his face when he sees them kissing is so confused, if he had known something about her feelings it wouldn't have been as confused as it was.

Originally posted by LovelyOne
I wish I know their email or what ever.

What bugs me with KttC is they really are very W/E based in the spoilers and specs section..kate said they delete J/E spoilers and such with no real proof that they are wrong. They tell J/E supporters to shut up through PM in the thunderdome when you show a lot of passion towards J.E (they did me anyway)

It wasnt about the way I spoke. It was about me posting to much J/E in the tunderdome they even complained in the actual thunderdoome itself too, telling me not to post so much J/E stuff yet the W/E shippers go on and on.

The only place where we can really talk J/E is in the spyglass..and there if you post speculation/spoilers it gets deleted..

I think they know the important people are looking at the speculation and spoilers section and they keep the J/E happy shippers out...they just keep them out of there in general actually. So many J/E shippers on that site have a fear of going into the specs and spoilers section..now I know why cuz they rip you apart and chase you away, or they ban you.

All the "important people" see is the praise towards the E/W spoilers..which is sneaky IMO KttC EW shipper mods know what they are doing..why is it ALL E/W shippers who are the mods in that section?

suspicious

LOL im not getting involved in another battle, but they do delete liz/jack spoilers. recently, the "choke on it" scene, the "will dies" rumor, and a bunch of pictures of the whores crying have bitten the dust, because apparently the sites they were posted on and linked to were "sites that contain unnecessary character bashing." lol.

the thing is, there really arent any will/liz spoilers at the moment, except for the wedding rumor. thats it, and no one has a link to that.

but i have been having my way in the thunderdome, and as long as i end every post with a smiley face, they dont bother me about getting passionate. but i definately am more free with my speech here. i love ya alls!!!!

its interesting, we havent had a super dramatic day in a while. remember the day the "will dies" rumor surfaced? man oh man, that was intense.

It wouldn't be to bad to have another one. Everyone needs some excitement from time to time

lol-that was an intense day-and if you didnt sign on that day...you had a LOT of catching up to do

HeY aLL My LoVes Of KMC!!! I Just wanted to say that i shall miss u all cause i am on my way to HAwaii!! See u all when i get back in a week....OMG imma have a lot to read when i come back...lol!!! If anything Special happens, or any drama happens PM me with it thanks!!! Love ya and miss ya!! MuaH!!!

Originally posted by Surreal_44
Wrong, wrong, wrong....When Beckett mentions that Jack is Will's friend, Will is being cautious. He's already in trouble for helping Jack, and he's suspicious of Beckett. He doesn't want Beckett to know too much about how close he and Jack actually are.


Of course, Will is not experienced enough to mask his emotions, but he's getting there. Beckett is just excellent at manipulation. Also, you have to remember, Will and Elizabeth probably have not seen Jack since he escaped...so they aren't building a friendship with him.


The wedding is meant to be...but Beckett timed his arrival to break up the wedding, to show everyone who's in charge now, and because it would be more motivation to get everyone to do what he wants them to do.


All the foreshadowing isn't foreshadowing, but more of a ploy to get you to believe something, while something else is lurking under the depths and is just biding its time to jump out and catch you off guard.


As for Will not repeating the "Captain" bit, I think he realized he had just made a mistake, and was silently berating himself for it. He shouldn't have acted so familiar with Jack Sparrow, because then Beckett has something more to use against him.


This might be an example of reading just a teeny bit too much into a scene. Just a bit. LOL TRUST ME..the wedding is NOT meant to be...its not a happy ever after for Will/Liz...no way no how.
also Its not looking too much into a scene.

Please dont ever say someone can look too much into a scene when you have no knowledge of film studies..T&T/gore had to study the exact same way as me in college to get to where they are today, they would probably laugh at someone saying "they dont think about what they put into a scene"

..everything put into a scene is thought out long before they even shoot...so that little look Will gives? He was probably told to do it to look jealous. the setting? Everything means something. The setting can often reflect the characters emotions..the colour of the scene is drained..reflecting Lizzies emotions..and this is before the wedding even gets stopped. Before she knows Will is even arrested..the atmosphere is reflecting how she feels.."miserable about the wedding"..she's emotionally drained..she then snaps on about Jack...and we are introduced to Jack in a coffin..then we get that line later on "widow before marriage, searching for her husband lost at sea"

you cant even BE a widow before marriage unles you were perviously married to someone else and they have lft you to persue a hobby or have dies..since when did Will do either before their marriage?

I had to write and draw a story board for my college coursewok and before I could even start I had to think about what I was going to put into the mise en scene first that would reflect what I was trying to portay with, camera angles, lighting, setting, camera directions, color all to add to my over all theme for character.

I always thought they both said "captain" at the same time and then Will didn't want to appear too close and said "more an acquaintance than a friend." And that's true, isn't it? Like someone said, he hasn't seen Jack for a while and they can't really build up their relationship. But I thought for sure he and Liz said it at the same time.
Will and Jack is a cool relationship because they're friends in the sense that they will watch the other's back and their differences actually compliment one another. It's my opinion they're stronger together than they are apart, but they aren't friends in the sense that they like spending time together, can confide in one another, and can support one another. That's where Liz comes in. I have a feeling she was involved in their plan to save Jack from hanging, but there hasn't been a scene of her actually working with Jack unless you count searching for the chest, which wasn't really a team effort because she was the only one who had the compass and it didn't work how she thought it would. But she does provide the friendship that Will doesn't. She's supportive of Jack and makes him feel confident enough to talk to her about anything.

I don't think Will and Jack were connected or friends at ALL. Even in CotBP, Will was still VERY hesitant to trust Jack {When Elizabeth didn't mind jumping head first into trusting him} and he still held his discriminatory feelings towards pirates. He saved Jack from the hangmans' noose cause he felt GUILTY, not because he wanted to save Jack.

Honestly, he doesn't even thing about Jack at all. All the little Unuich has on his mind is Elizabeth and his father. He's just a one track minded person, he doesn't really appeal to me or alot of others.

{BTW I posted a poll for J/E and alot of other ships, so far it's 50/50 with J/E and EW}

And Surreal__44, what would you classify your self as. I mean, what ship do you root for.

Secondly, I DO think Beckatt coming that day WAS FATE! Honestly, he could've come ANY time in the world, any time. But it HAD TO BE ON THEIR WEDDING, and there is barely any way to find out if the Unuich and Elizabeth were to be married on that day. SO HE DIDN'T PLAN TO RUIN THEIR WEDDING, IT WAS FATE!

HAHAHAHA, burn!

where did you post that poll?^^

and I agree with you..

you see his legs just appear in shot right after she looks like she's kneeling at a grave..

In KTTC, I wanna see what those people think. And if they got rid of the J/E shippers, I'm gonna cry and raise a protest.

Lol, it's in Speculations And Spoilers.

Called lets take a vote.

YAY, J/E IS WINNING. IT'S AT 5 AND EW IS AT 2!

Will used Jack to get to Liz lol. Hes not being catious, hes being honest. Will doesnt still trust him. He never did really, he just used them they both used eachother for their own convenience.
We are RIGHT RIGHT RIGHT and you got PUNKED PUNKED PUNKED lol

But they can't deny that they both helped each other get what they wanted in COTBP. Will wanted to save Liz: Jack pretty much did all the work there. Jack wanted the Pearl, Will helped him get it and then saved him at the end. There is a foundation of friendship there, or at least debt to the other. They're forever connected now, not just because of Liz but because of how they've interfered with each other's lives.

In COTBP Will really wanted to help Jack escape. There was a bond between them. But, in DMC Will's character was a lot more darker. When Will was having that conversation with Becket he seemed sincere when he said that "more acquaintances than friends" line. I don't believe he said it just to be cautious. That wouldn't make sense, just the way he expressed it...he looked like he was being completely honest. He just wanted to save himself and Liz. I mean he didn't knew Jack that well, so he could careless for Jack's well being.
Therefore Liz looked like she really wanted to make sure he was alright. Liz spend time with him, she got to know him well. Jack really left a mark on her or else she wouldn't have gone and point a gun at Becket, steel the Letters of Marque, and go find him on her own. I mean she really went in to so much trouble. She didn't trust Will to find Jack, I wonder why?

Swann&Sparrow: If I could choose two people to be together, it would be Norrington and Elizabeth. I think they are excellently suited to each other personality-wise, they look good together, and they are both incredibly smart.


As for who I believe is going to end up together, it's W/E. I see no way that Elizabeth and Jack would ever be anything more than a "What might have been" couple.


Also, in the visual guide, it mentions that Beckett waited for the right moment for when to come to Port Royal...that moment was the wedding of Elizabeth and Will.


And yes, Beckett would have known about the wedding...That kind of news would have been considerably exciting, since Will and Elizabeth is a forbidden love The lady marries a man below her station? Unthinkable! The circumstances surrounding the engagement would have been shocking too, what with pirates and a broken engagement to a handsome Naval officer...the rumors probably spread well beyond Jamaica and the colonies.


After all, if Beckett knew about the compass, the chest of Davy Jones and Jack's escape, why wouldn't he know the date of Will and Elizabeth's wedding? It's not like today, where you mail an invitation out and people get it in a week or less; back then, it took a looooong time for news to travel, so there was plenty of time for Beckett to hear about the engagement.


Everything Beckett said in the movie was done to manipulate others, from mention Norrington and Sparrow without their titles (I believe he was testing the waters to see which person the others cared about more), to his non-surprise at Elizabeth getting the letters to getting Swann to work for him, Beckett had planned and mapped out all of their movements and responses. He'd be one heck of a chess player, I bet.


So no, it wasn't fate. Beckett doesn't believe in fate, he believes in himself. He's pretty much telling her that he is in control, that he'll do what he wants...when he wants. Beckett never says anything without purpose, so no, it wasn't a random comment from no-where.


To make sure I cover all interaction between Beckett, Elizabeth and Will, I might as well add that when Beckett off-handedly points out how much trouble she's going to for Sparrow, and she protests, I think he is simply fishing for information on how much she cares about Jack.


I think up until the point where Jack was so flippant about Elizabeth's plight when they got onto the Pearl was where Will decided that he'd had enough of Jack and no longer trusted him. The very fact that Jack would not hand over the compass to save Elizabeth was probably an affront to Will, and he was willing to do anything to get that key to save her, because without the key Jack would not give him the compass.


And I agree with willofthewisp; Will and Jack used each other in the first movie, and they did have a friendship of sorts. Will realized his mistake the moment he tried to defend Jack's title, which is why he's more cautious in his meeting with Beckett. It has nothing to do with jealousy, and everything to do with staying alive.

Misty just pointed out another thing that is irritating to me...


Elizabeth didn't steal the letters for Jack...she stole them for Will. Not because she didn't trust him to get them, but because she didn't trust BECKETT.


Remember what her father said to her right before that scene? That even if Will succeeds, both Elizabeth and Will are going to hang? There is no way Will knows that information, and Elizabeth isn't going to leave those papers with Beckett on the off-chance he does something sneaky. I have a feeling if Jack's name was already on the papers she would have made Beckett put Will's name in there.


I'm sorry to say, that was not a J/E moment, and it wasn't an "Elizabeth is losing her love for Will" moment either. Elizabeth LOVES Will...she's attracted to Jack. Attraction and love are two totally different things.

i agree with all the beckett stuff about him planning it 100%

but of course i do not agree with the liz loves will, because if she was truly only thinking about will then there would be no point for the 'she's going into alot of trouble for jack' line or anything else jack/liz realated-if it is a EW ending then theres no point in any of it, it would have been a waste of time, characters cannot turn out the same way that they started in the beginning in the film, because films are made to teach lessons and to show you how a character changes throughout their problems, if the character ended up the way the movie started then the character nor us have learned anything.

Well...here's my two cents worth..I don't agree with anything Surreal44 writes....cuz Norrington and Liz look good together..okay...but Jack and Liz look good, hot, sexy and lovely together....and....yes, this line bothered me too...especially the first time I saw the movie..I was like "what the crap"....why would you risk your life for a mere acquantance...I guess maybe Will was only making nice with Beckett...that's why he stands between Jack and Norrington at the end of POTC..."yes, it's between Jack and you..." referring to his where he stands....
ya know....even at this point, my friends...I kept thinking..okay somethings going to happen between Jack and Liz...and then when Jack says that line "it would have never worked between us, darling...I'm sorry"...I was like okay...I wasn't a total idiot...there is more going on here then what meets the eye...why else would they have Jack utter that line to LIz....on initial thought ya might think it was just flirty old Jack..but then....it's much much more than that....I love this story...Jack and Liz forever...

Ok Surreal i have a few questions that I need for you to answer.
How could you be so sure that Liz stoled those letters to save Will? If the letters were really meant for Will she could have not showed them to Jack. She didn't even made great efforts to retrieve the letters from Jack when he took them. There were other ways to take them from him, instead of using "persuasion". Oh and how come if she was so pissed at Jack for taking the letters that were"meant for Will" we see her grinning after that persuade me scene? Those letters were meant for Jack all along, Liz knew it. What good were those letters for Will?. She could of have use the letters for herself, she was facing the same fate as Will.
She says these aren't going to Jack. And Becket was the one that asked her if it was to insure Will's freedom. She didn't answer the question. She didn't say if they were actually for Will.
Thats true Will couldn't possible known that he was going to get hanged anyways. But when Gov. Swann helps her scape from the prison and tells her they are going to go to England, Liz respond is,No Will has gone to find Jack! She could of had said I'm not leaving without Will or something like that. But her respond was different.
I'M glad that you are accepting that J/L are attracted to each other. Thats the first step, there has to be an attraction first and then comes loves. They may be totally different things, but thats how love starts. Oh
if she is sooo in love with Will, why is she suddenly feeling attracted to another man? humm makes you wonder, does she really loves Will? Perhaps.. Is she in love with him??? I guess we are gonna have to wait and see.

I dunno if Surreal writes all these to irritate us and test us. Or does shi sniff some pot before typing these ridiculous theories...

By the way Misty you kick ass lol

Originally posted by Mistypirate
Ok Surreal i have a few questions that I need for you to answer.
How could you be so sure that Liz stoled those letters to save Will? If the letters were really meant for Will she could have not showed them to Jack. She didn't even made great efforts to retrieve the letters from Jack when he took them. There were other ways to take them from him, instead of using "persuasion". Oh and how come if she was so pissed at Jack for taking the letters that were"meant for Will" we see her grinning after that persuade me scene? Those letters were meant for Jack all along, Liz knew it. What good were those letters for Will?. She could of have use the letters for herself, she was facing the same fate as Will.
She says these aren't going to Jack. And Becket was the one that asked her if it was to insure Will's freedom. She didn't answer the question. She didn't say if they were actually for Will.
Thats true Will couldn't possible known that he was going to get hanged anyways. But when Gov. Swann helps her scape from the prison and tells her they are going to go to England, Liz respond is,No Will has gone to find Jack! She could of had said I'm not leaving without Will or something like that. But her respond was different.
I'M glad that you are accepting that J/L are attracted to each other. Thats the first step, there has to be an attraction first and then comes loves. They may be totally different things, but thats how love starts. Oh
if she is sooo in love with Will, why is she suddenly feeling attracted to another man? humm makes you wonder, does she really loves Will? Perhaps.. Is she in love with him??? I guess we are gonna have to wait and see.

i agree wit ya 100%
especially the last part
sure, if you're inlove with someone you're still going to be attracted to other guys, but liz takes this a little too far for someone who is suppose to be in love-she didn't have to kiss jack, she didn't have to flirt with him-if she was in love she shouldn't have nor wanted to do such things with another man. especially since this is the beginning of their marriage its not like they've been married for a long time and now she's bored...though i guess with will you'd get bored pretty quickly

yay misty!
lol-kudos for everyone on this fourm who have made their wonderful theories- you truly bring air freshner where will has envaded...lol

Ok about those Letter, those everyone remember the scene before the persuasion one. Jack's asks her how she got the letters..yada, yada,yada. And the Jack says, " Will strikes a deal for these and upholds it with honor. Yet you're the one standing here with the prize. Full pardon, commission as a privateer on behalf of England
and the East India Trading Company. As if I could be bought for such a low price." I believe Liz wanted those letters for herself, it is clearly stated. And when Jack takes them and puts them in his coat, she says," Jack the letters, give them back". She didn't say give them back they are for Will. Liz wants to save her a$s, I believe she wants those letters for herself.

Originally posted by mmoviejunkie
yay misty!
lol-kudos for everyone on this fourm who have made their wonderful theories- you truly bring air freshner where will has envaded...lol


Lol you are welcome

Originally posted by Chiki Mina
I dunno if Surreal writes all these to irritate us and test us. Or does shi sniff some pot before typing these ridiculous theories...

By the way Misty you kick ass lol

Thank you Mina.
I truly believe she gets high before posting these theories.

Hey....I don't think Liz is "in Love" with Will....I do believe that she loves him...and believe me there is a big difference....remember (i've posted this before somewhere else)...at the beginning of POTC when Liz is a little girl and she is singing the Pirates song....then she says "I think it would be exciting to meet a Pirate"...well, when she meets Will she thinks he's a Pirate..but it's not all that exciting..what was exciting is the way she meets Jack...and he Looks and Acts like a Pirate in that scene. Anyways...one clue as to how Liz actually feels about Will....ya'll know how Lovely always refers to this relationship as a brother/sister type thing...Liz is more protective of Will...she looks out for him...because she promised her father she would...at the beginning of POTC on the Dauntless...her father tells her..."watch over him, Liz, the boy is in your charge, now."....and when Will comes to and he meets Liz for the first time she tells him "I'm watching over you Will."....That's why Liz does what she does.....She watches over Will..she protects him...she feels responsible for him....yes, she loves him....but what is going on between her and Jack is so much deeper...and adult and sexy....

Oh, yea.....about those letters of Marque...she sooo was getting those for Jack...Beckett even knows that....she holds him at gunpoint...those letters are for Jack...not her, not Will....it's not a wedding interrupted, fate intervenes...Beckett says "you make great efforst to ensure Jack Sparrow's freedom"....Liz responds: "these are not for Jack"...and Beckett never even glances her way and says "oh, really." to me that implies that he's not buying a word she is saying....and you are right Misty...she gives those letters to Jack first chance she gets....and she wasn't pissed...she was smiling...at Jack's suggestion...she was imagining what it would be like to "persuade" him...if she is SO in love with Will...why is she daydreaming and fantazing about dear old Jack...Will is her childhood love...Jack is her soulmate and adult Love...the chemistry between jack and liz is too great to be overlooked...the kisses between Will and LIz are boring..and lack passion...they are just sweet..that's all....

When you watch The Kiss...you can feel the passion oozing out of Liz and Jack...face to face, nose to nose, breath to breath, mouth to mouth...so hot....and especially when she moves in as if to take another taste....I can't wait for Jack to ask her why she kissed him when there could have been many other ways to force him to stay behind...

Surreal 44 she didnt take them for Will..Beckett even knows she's taking them for Jack. Think back to the scene where she shouts "CAPTAIN!...CAPTAIN JACK SPARROW!" he knows that this woman is smitten with him, his facial expression says this..even Wills facial expression suggests she's been talking about him a lot since he left them both

when he suggests it she over reacts when saying no..that bares the marks of someone who is trying to hide their feelings.

secondly when her dad is taking her away from the jail she shouts "but Will has to find JACK".....odd choice of words there if she's desperate for Will to be safe...its like "Will needs to save JACK!"

if its not fate intervening then why on earth is the theme raised.."and I say it was divine providence that rescued us from Jail"

no lines are added into a movie to be pointless...its just common sense people..its not even common sense actually..Its like the No1 rule of script writing.

You are absolutely correct Lovethemtigers and Surreal is living in a
surreal world. Is she from another site, like maybe pluto. (And I don't mean the dog.) Either that or she didn't see the movie we saw.

Liz feels she must still protect Will and even the kiss and hug on the beach IMO was a little too maternal. Not a whole lot of passion there. More like Will, old friend I am glad you are ok.

surreal..she loves Will..but IMO if you take out the two rather plain kisses where Liz actively jumps backwards, and the scene in the cell where she says "I'd have you already" you would swear they were family and not lovers. she loves him like a family member not as a partner..there is just no chemistry what so ever between the two...

Liz actually shows attraction to Jack..which is not what I see with Will at all. She shows shes attracted to him as a man and not just on a sexual level..its the deeper level which she fears..if she feared the sexual attraction she wouldn't have used a kiss to chain him up..she fears how she feels about him. Thats why she does what she does at the end..

imagine it..you have feelings for a man..you are afraid of them..he leaves you..then he comes back to save you..and toy know its because of you he did it..imagine how you would feel about him, your feelings would escalate sky high..everything about that shot suggests she's totally smitten with him. There is even a halo of light there.

Guys, be nice to surreal. You're acting the way KTTC people treat LovelyOne! This is a friendly discussion and she's entitled to think however she wants, or he. I don't know.

Here's the thing, the three men in the story, Norrington, Will, and Jack, are all at different levels of decency, and different levels of piracy. In the first movie, Norrington is a pretty great guy: smart, brave, the only one more concerned about justice than his own wants, and he gives Liz up to make her happy. Will is a nice guy, a little bit of a wimp here and there, but overall a nice kid that just wants to save the girl he loves. Jack is a pirate, and not a particularly nice guy, although he's not going to screw Will or Liz over to get what he wants. When you break it down, he has a selfish drive and only does things for others when he sees no risk involved.

Second movie: we've seen their initial levels, now it's time to develop characters, which usually happens in sequels, good sequels anyway. We saw so much of Norrington's good side we actually wondered what he and Liz would have been like and now we see his beloved job taken away and he's a total douchebag. He betrayed all of them and acted more shrewdly than any of them. So he has a pirate side which you would think would attract Liz. Being attracted to danger's only fun when it's not happening to you. Will, we saw a darker Will, but also a more developed one, one who didn't live in fear of Liz and tried to drive apart Jack's I'm-in-charge-when-it's-the-two-of-us attitude. So far, he doesn't really have a pirate side, so we're at extreme pirate for Norrie and no pirate for Will.

Then there is Jack. Jack has done some pretty bad things, but some pretty good things. If you look at it like a scale, Norrie is on both opposite ends, Will is still only on one, but falling back more to the middle, and Jack hops around, averaging to the middle. He seems to be the only one who can balance his need for freedom and to act on selfish impulse with doing the right thing, as much as he denies his ability to do so.

So Liz also tries to balance. She's a good girl, but Norrie's too nice, too boring for her so she tries Will and Will only drifts as much as he needs to. He'll never dominate her, never let her be free enough. It's only Jack that seems to like her being involved in the adventures in addition to protecting her.

I'm not being mean...Its just lots of peoples opinions countering hers..

I dont mean to be intimidating. So I apologize if thats how I'm coming across

common guys(not speaking to anyone in particular so don't get mad at me just sayin..in general) we should appreciate surreal cause she's arguing with our ideas in a reasonable way..unlike SOME people(again no one in particular) who just marched in here told us their opinion rather rudely, made up some rumors, insulted our friends and swore like hell. but surreal is just saying her opinion, she's still our freind and a member of this forum just has a different POV. I haven't read this page that much just enough to know everyone got bugged at what she said.

I got to admit my own mind just started spining crazy, evry reason or point she made my mind went "no ACTUALLY it's not like that CAUSE this and that happend and it can't be like that!" but it's point of view we can't change it (at least not by force lol so I just wanted to thank her for posting her ideas in a friendly way

I dont think anyone means to be rude or come off as rude. I think we all just believe our won opinion is the right one as you all have said we are intitled to our own opinions , that is why I love this forum, we can all speak our minds with our friends here and we are respected for our opinions. I want to thank all u guys for always listening to me and my crazy opinions
luve u all
group
group hug

Well I actually like having Surreal around the forum. It gives us the opportunity to debunk her theories...which IMO her previous theory didn't make sense to me. And I just expressed about how I felt about it. And the comment were I said, that she gets high every time she post a theory was meant as a joke. I wouldn't get offended if someone that is disagreeing with me made that comment. I mean if someone tells me, what the heck are you saying are you high on something? I would take it as it is, a joke. I would not take it personal. Therefore I'm going be a good person and apologize if I hurt Surreal's feelings in any kind of way.

Oh Shannstar 79 I luv u to. Everyhting you said is entirely true. Everyone is intiteled to their own opinions.

Originally posted by Mistypirate
Well I actually like having Surreal around the forum. It gives us the opportunity to debunk her theories...which IMO her previous theory didn't make sense to me. And I just expressed about how I felt about it. And the comment were I said, that she gets high every time she post a theory was meant as a joke. I wouldn't get offended if someone that is disagreeing with me made that comment. I mean if someone tells me, what the heck are you saying are you high on something? I would take it as it is, a joke. I would not take it personal. Therefore I'm going be a good person and apologize if I hurt Surreal's feelings in any kind of way.

Oh Shannstar 79 I luv u to. Everyhting you said is entirely true. Everyone is intiteled to their own opinions.

same here...don't mean to be rude...but Surreal's theories just don't wash with me....it's like Lovely says "fate intervenes"...that line is not put in the movie just for the fun of it...it means something...or else....why say it....why did they want us to focus so much on what is going on and developing between Jack and Liz...it can't be to make a stronger love tie between Will and Liz..cuz it didn't work...not for me, anyways....just wants me want to see more Jack and Liz...

Originally posted by lovethemtigers
same here...don't mean to be rude...but Surreal's theories just don't wash with me....it's like Lovely says "fate intervenes"...that line is not put in the movie just for the fun of it...it means something...or else....why say it....why did they want us to focus so much on what is going on and developing between Jack and Liz...it can't be to make a stronger love tie between Will and Liz..cuz it didn't work...not for me, anyways....just wants me want to see more Jack and Liz...

ME TOO
I just want more Jack and Liz and so does the rest of the world if you ask me

1 BILLION DOLLAR MARK

exactly..I doubt Disney are stupid enough to do the opposite of what obviously pushed DMC up to 1 bilion..even if that was the original intent before DMC was released.

I'm telling you the movie will not get to 1 billion unless there is J/E romantic chemistry or a hint of a J/E ending.

a movie only gets to 1 billion when something is working really really well onscreen. Its not will Turner I can tell you that. Its Jack sparrow..and what did we see with Jack sparrow in DMC?

If its to end W/E or Liz on her own I think they have made a mistake. This isnt just personal opinion its based on everything I'm taught about statistics in box office takings for like Titanic etc.

When something is obviously raking in the money in for DMC are you gonna do the exact opposite of that in the next installment?

of course not..well I hope not anyway...it doesnt take a dummy to know where the money is.

This is a blockbuster..their soul purpose is to make money..so they cant risk it.

YES YES YES! Exactly. Thank You Lovethemtigers...
But some people just don't want to keep their minds open to other possibilities. I mean It's all in front of our faces. And like you said why focused so much attention in the developments of these two characters, why so much interest? They are not doing it because that line or that part looks or sounds nice in the movie. Or just to make the ties between W/E stronger. It's clearly not pointing that way. I do not buy it either. I know our theories are mostly true, i just feel it. Because the writers presented that idea clearly to us in DMC. And some people are just completely blinded by the idea that W/E are going to end up together, get married and live happily ever after. Sorry but it's not going to happen. Its not pointing that way. Oh and I'm not saying that J/L will, who wouldn't like that. There are visible signs in the movie that they are both attracted and have feelings for each other. Those feelings eventually are going to develop in to something else, attraction is the first step. Attraction(want)=Love. But I have an open mind and realise that they might not end up together at the end of AWE. Some conflicts are going to end at the end of AWE, but new ones will develop. And I believe that there might be something that is not going to allowed them to be together at the end. Well that is my opinion of what I think it might happen, I hope I'm wrong I really do. But I just have an open mind to other possibilities. It doesn't point that W/E are going to have a happy ending together. It clearly points it.

my friend who is a J/E shipper wne to see this movie 32 times..32 TIMES!

people did this with Titanic why? because they loved the love story yeah it can be argued they didnt end up together..well we went there expecting tragedy thats al I have to say..so we knew in the back of our minds that someone might die..AWE..no one knows what happens at the end.

a movie only reaches 1 billion when someone sees what they like and they watch it over and over and over again

and I'm not being funny but its mostly young women who watch this movie and they do love romances..obviously the J/E thing has caused a MASSIVE buzz and Disney would royally kill it if the end it W/E the most boring relationship to ever grace the big screen.

EW can say: "maybe people are going to watch the EW romance over and over"

Well I say: "what romance is that again?? I failed to see that amount to anything even remotely interesting in DMC"

I agree 100% I went to see Titanic 5 times. I'm not that young I'm 24 but I do love those kind of romantic movies. Specially the forbidden love ones. And I loved DMC because of these two characters and there developments. I never expected it to happen, but it was presented to us. And I fell in love with that idea. And I bet that a lot a lot of people felled in love with that idea as well. I though the W/L thing in the first movie was ok, I was expecting it, it was a Disney movie. Nothing new, same ol boring thing. But when I saw that the relationship of J/L was developing in to something else, I was like holly c#$b thats a first. I never imagined it to happen. It was a surprise.

AGREE 100% LOVLEYONE

think about it, why in the owrld would they have a Wil/Liz ending, they KNOW they would not reach 1 billion again. Disney is very very smart, and so are T&T they know what and WHO the money makers are in this film. It would make absolutly no sence at all to make an ending that they know would not reach a million dollar mark
. period.

it wont reach 1 billion if its WE because firstly that is only 1 billion cuz peeps went to see it over and over..so those peeps are gonna probably see it once and never again if its EW..maybe twice if they love Johnny's character..even the EW shippers (not the majority of the audience) wont be able to build up the numbers because they are actually mainly Orlie fan girls or women who are like my mums age.

the rest of the audience either like Jack on his own or J/E ending..and I would suggest more like J/E ending..cuz movie 1 ended with Jack on his own and it got 360 million...vs 1 BILLION where Jack got the girl??

come on peeps its common sense.

J/E is HOT SHIT!

Well my 3 best friends liked the idea of the J/E thing, plus they love Johnny, thats why we went to see the movie over again. The only person that I know that doesn't like the idea of J/E to end up together is my sister. She is stuck behind the W/E thing, and loves Orlando Bloom she thinks they are going to end up together and live happily ever after.I try to explain our theories to her, but she is hard headed and she wont listen. So that makes 4- rooting for J/E and 1-for E/W. 4 to 1. What does that tell ya.

There's just one thing about the J/E pairing that has me a little iffy, just one thing. With all our evidence that we've compiled and LovelyOne's film knowledge and other people's knowledge, why does it still feel like it will be a W/E ending? Does anyone else get that vibe that Disney is not going to do what we want and Will and Liz, although they may not live happily ever after, will probably be the couple at the end? I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I get a real eerie feeling about the whole thing.

Willo, that sinking feeling you have is your ship going down, sweetie. W/E are destined to be together, whether you want it to happen or not. I'm sorry, I really am, but that's just how it is. It's in the movie, it's hinted at what might happen to everyone in DMC...but you all are too, too centered on J/E.


If you would just STOP looking at EVERYTHING as being centered around J/E and take the other characters in the film into consideration, you'd see a lot more.


This next comment of mine is going to sound harsh, especially for LovelyOne, and I really don't intend for it to be...I've rewritten it about a half dozen times trying to soften it, so please don't be offended..but, just because LovelyOne has gone and studied film does not mean that she knows exactly what TnT are going to do or what they are planning.


There are plenty of ways to write a story and a way to lead people to one conclusion while at the same time, bringing up a more natural conclusion that will make you go "Oh!".


The two of them (TnT) have pretty much made it clear that W/E is going to end up together. It's right there, in front of us, how they want it to end. It's in the rough draft of the script, it was in CotBP, and it's in DMC. W/E will be together.


I adore arguing with all of you, but it's hard to do it when you just out-right dismiss it as being 'crazy talk'. I see little to no effort to even try to see things the W/E way...mainly because I think that if you look too closely, you'll see what I am saying and that worries you.


And it shouldn't. It is only a movie, after all.

Basically, the 4-1 thing tells me that Johnny Depp has more fans. In all honesty, I think shipping is just a matter of which actor you like best, not which character makes the most sense together.


To me, N/E are the perfect couple. And yes, I'm well aware that my ship has so many holes in it that it is sinking faster than that little fishing boat Jack sailed to Port Royal in.


I like Jack Davenport, and I think he's the best looking of the three male lead characters in the films. My next choice would be Orlando, and my third choice is Johnny.


So maybe that's what it is. There isn't symbolism, but just hormones blinding everyone.

Surreal said


If you would STOP for a moment and make a list of the possibilities of Will/Liz. We started with Will/Liz we tried and retried making out possibilities of a Will/Liz ending. There is no chemistry, There is no spark, There is no bond. Love is extremely confusing yes. But what Liz thought it was just a physical attraction to Jack, it turned out to be more than meets the eye. What she thought it was love to Will, turned out to me a friendly love.

You cant just say since COTBP ended with Will/Liz means AWE will end that way too. To tell you the truth it actually never ended as a Will/Liz ending. All 3 characters still had unfinished business. Will still had his father to look for, liz still had that attraction towards jack, and jack couldn't stop thinking about her by the end of the movie.

Again, we are not OBSESSED FANATICS over Jack/Liz. WE are not making theories for the hell of it because its what we want to believe, its what we believe in. You don't need film studies or any type of special class(no offense Lovely). Its common sense. And its right under our noses. If you will stop for a moment in making things that you only want to happen, then you can probably see things a little clearer. We are opposing your theories not bc we hate you, its just doesn't make sense!

Question...how can Liz end up with Will if Will supposedly gonna become the next captain of the flying Dutchman??? You made many theories on how Will/Liz should end up together. I think you should explain then what will happen to Jack?

How do Norrington and Liz make more sense than Jack and Liz, or even Will and Liz? She has flat out rejected him. He does not appeal to her and I think he's gotten over her, at least for now. Will we all know at least has puppy love for her and Jack, well, you know how I feel about that.

Yeah, I agree that just because a film is SUPPOSED to do certain things doesn't mean it does. Several writers like to break traditions and several writers make what fans consider mistakes. I'm sure plenty of people really hated that Luke turned out to be Leia's brother. I just don't think it's promised that ANYTHING will happen. Will and Liz is just as likely as Jack and Liz. Jack/Liz is likely because the writers have put in hints and scenes that would have no purpose if it wasn't going to go anywhere.

Will and Elizabeth will work because Will ISN'T going to be the next captain of the Flying Dutchman. That's how W/E work. Also, the writers are obviously very W/E.


The problem is, what you view as chemistry isn't necessarily how TnT view chemistry. You want something explosive, thinking that it will be exciting and hot, and honestly, not everyone sees it that way.


Jack and Elizabeth together had flirty moments, but I wouldn't call it uber-hot OR sexy...especially that Kiss of Death you all keep pointing out as being THE turning point of the romance. It was, because she KILLS Jack. Dead, gone, he's being digested or whatever happens when a Kraken eats you.


Will and Elizabeth are together at the end of the movie...not Jack and Elizabeth. Will fought to get back to Elizabeth, Elizabeth fought to get back to Will...she KILLED for Will, she KILLED Jack...Elizabeth is happy to see Will...genuinely happy, not surprised!happy like she is when Jack returns to the ship. She hugs Will, kisses him...she kisses Jack and leaves him chained to a ship to die.


She agreed to marry Will, she threw out Jack's proposal. She threw out a marriage to a wealthy man to marry Will, she manipulated good men to their deaths for Will and she risked death...for WILL.


There's undeniable attraction Elizabeth and Jack, but that's all that there is. A relationship needs more than attraction, and as nice as total freedom sounds, I think that such a lifestyle would eventually wear on Elizabeth.


Besides that, one of the points you all keep pushing is the scene where Gov. Swann busts her out of prison, and you think the line is "But Will has to find Jack!" That isn't the line.


The line is "But Will has gone to find Jack!" and then immediately after that, she defends WILL...then her father tells her Will is going to hang no matter what happens. So what does that leave Elizabeth with? She has to do something to save the man she loves...so she steals for Will. I forgot that one...


Everything she does is for WILL. Not for Jack. You don't KILL for someone you don't love. If she really, really loved Jack, she would have stayed with him to die with him. Live together, die together. THAT is what you do when you love someone.


Every argument that you all have for J/E, you either contradict or conveniently come up with a way to make EVERY moment of the movie J/E. What I am trying to say here is that even IF there are hints for J/E in the movie, it isn't in every scene, and it isn't the whole plot/purpose of Dead Man's Chest, and it won't be the whole plot for AWE either.


Talk about loose plot lines, we still have Tia, DJ, Norrington and the EITC to deal with. Do we have any symbols (that don't involve J/E or Will's rather convenient death) that might foreshadow what happens in the next film with any of those characters?


I do love the shipping debate, but I would love it if we could talk about something else.

I'll try to shift gears a little, but to let you know, in a group predominantly made of girls, even tomboys like me, subjects usually revert back to who Liz will end up with, as if that's all a woman is meant to do! Lol.

Are we all on the same page that Liz and Jack are at least friends? That they at least have come to that point in their relationship? Okay, because this is what would be interesting to talk about: how will Will react to being in charge now? He has no problem being a leader for short missions like getting of the cannibal island and the battle in the first movie, but to be in full command of a ship with Jack not even there? He's not speaking to Liz, who is his closest friend (we should all be agreed on that), so I wonder if his confidence will be hurting and lead him to make some stupid mistakes.

Originally posted by Surreal_44
Will and Elizabeth will work because Will ISN'T going to be the next captain of the Flying Dutchman. That's how W/E work. Also, the writers are obviously very W/E.


The problem is, what you view as chemistry isn't necessarily how TnT view chemistry. You want something explosive, thinking that it will be exciting and hot, and honestly, not everyone sees it that way.


Jack and Elizabeth together had flirty moments, but I wouldn't call it uber-hot OR sexy...especially that Kiss of Death you all keep pointing out as being THE turning point of the romance. It was, because she KILLS Jack. Dead, gone, he's being digested or whatever happens when a Kraken eats you.


Will and Elizabeth are together at the end of the movie...not Jack and Elizabeth. Will fought to get back to Elizabeth, Elizabeth fought to get back to Will...she KILLED for Will, she KILLED Jack...Elizabeth is happy to see Will...genuinely happy, not surprised!happy like she is when Jack returns to the ship. She hugs Will, kisses him...she kisses Jack and leaves him chained to a ship to die.


She agreed to marry Will, she threw out Jack's proposal. She threw out a marriage to a wealthy man to marry Will, she manipulated good men to their deaths for Will and she risked death...for WILL.


There's undeniable attraction Elizabeth and Jack, but that's all that there is. A relationship needs more than attraction, and as nice as total freedom sounds, I think that such a lifestyle would eventually wear on Elizabeth.


Besides that, one of the points you all keep pushing is the scene where Gov. Swann busts her out of prison, and you think the line is "But Will has to find Jack!" That isn't the line.


The line is "But Will has gone to find Jack!" and then immediately after that, she defends WILL...then her father tells her Will is going to hang no matter what happens. So what does that leave Elizabeth with? She has to do something to save the man she loves...so she steals for Will. I forgot that one...


Everything she does is for WILL. Not for Jack. You don't KILL for someone you don't love. If she really, really loved Jack, she would have stayed with him to die with him. Live together, die together. THAT is what you do when you love someone.


Every argument that you all have for J/E, you either contradict or conveniently come up with a way to make EVERY moment of the movie J/E. What I am trying to say here is that even IF there are hints for J/E in the movie, it isn't in every scene, and it isn't the whole plot/purpose of Dead Man's Chest, and it won't be the whole plot for AWE either.


Talk about loose plot lines, we still have Tia, DJ, Norrington and the EITC to deal with. Do we have any symbols (that don't involve J/E or Will's rather convenient death) that might foreshadow what happens in the next film with any of those characters?


I do love the shipping debate, but I would love it if we could talk about something else.

I am not usually one to argue at all, but when you said Elizabeth and will are together at the end of DMC I completely disagree. they may be physically there but BOTH of their hearst are in different places.

Will- Focused on NOTHING but how upset he is that the Pearl (not Jack) is gone so now he has no way of saving his fathers soul. that she ONLY thing his heart is focused on

Elizabeth- she is completly distraught over what she has done to Jack, she clearly feels terrible and she knows she shouldnt have dont, she already misses him, he spirit and her heart feel as if they are being pulled to the bottom of the ocean

they are there yes in the room physically together, but their hearts and sould are in two completly different places

same here....I feel no connection between Will and Liz at the end of DMC..they feel more distant than ever....she gives Will a hateful look too...when he asks "Where's Jack"...I'm sorry Surreal44...but I just didn't feel any great joy when Liz runs and hugs Will on the beach...it just lacks passion (to me)...sorry, but I beleive relationships need heavy sexual attraction to be a great love and long lasting love....i just don't feel any attraction between Liz and Will...and neither does many other people, as you say 4 to 1...

Okay, I'll admit to you Surreal44...I am a huge Johnny Depp fan...it's hard for me to even fathom that someone could find Jack Davenport and Orlando Bloom better looking...because in the looks department, Johnny is the most beautiful man in the world to me..and as Jack Sparrow, OMG< I can't even explain it.....AND not only he is the best looking of the three...he is the best actor -by a long shot (especially over poor Orlie) over Jack and Orlando....so....yes, I guess you could say that I'm pulling for Jack cuz I love Johnny Depp...but it really goes much deeper than that...cuz the first time I saw POTC/COTBP I was not a huge Johnny fan...I had heard of him but had not seen anything with him in it before....and by the time POTC was over I was screaming for Jack and Liz to be together...it wasn't until I had watched POTC for the third time that I fell absolutely head over heels for Johnny....

SO what I'm trying to say is even though I am a big Johnny fan...that's not the only reason I believe that Jack and Liz are the better couple...you say we twist things in the movies to make it all Jack/Elizabeth...but I don't see it that way...many of the clues and symbols are staring us right in the face....

And, I'm still believing what Keira said: "well, the relationship between Elizabeth and Will is kind of, well, actually falling apart. Meanwhile, something rather 'interesting' is developing between her and Jack Sparrow.".....

also:
If you were in LOVE with someone this scene would have been different

( Jack, Norrie and liz find the chest and suddnley Will appears
Liz runs over and they embrace, he explains hoe Jack had gotten him captured by davy Jones, but thanks him fir it or else he would have never met his father.
Notice Liz never commented on Will meeting his father, she knew how important Will's father was to him, she only turned at snapped at Jack, everything you said to me was a lie

Its just weird to me how the man she sopposidly loved just met his father, a goal hes had all his life that liz KNOWS about, and she blows that off like she dosent even care
only to turn around to snapp and acccuse him of lying to her

Strange sceen for Will and liz if they were soppsed to be in love
IMO

Originally posted by shannstar79
also:
If you were in LOVE with someone this scene would have been different

( Jack, Norrie and liz find the chest and suddnley Will appears
Liz runs over and they embrace, he explains hoe Jack had gotten him captured by davy Jones, but thanks him fir it or else he would have never met his father.
Notice Liz never commented on Will meeting his father, she knew how important Will's father was to him, she only turned at snapped at Jack, everything you said to me was a lie

Its just weird to me how the man she sopposidly loved just met his father, a goal hes had all his life that liz KNOWS about, and she blows that off like she dosent even care
only to turn around to snapp and acccuse him of lying to her

Strange sceen for Will and liz if they were soppsed to be in love
IMO

I agree...she was more upset with Jack "lying" to her than excited that Will got to meet his father....and.....still...as we have said many times...why does she climb those stairs and hang on to Jack's leg...instead of running over to grab and comfort Will as he falls....to me, if T & T want me to think it's Will and Elizabeth...then they should have had her run over and see Will and he and her watch the cargo net explode together....not clinging to Jack's leg...who by the way...as Lovely as said...camera angle....they have just shown Jack in that hero worship shot....her gazing up at him and Jack surrounded by a halo of light.....

Fate Intervenes means something...they wouldn't just randomnly have Beckett say that....

It's a curious thing....they wouldn't just have Norrington say that for no reason...

Camera Angle....it emphasis Jack when Liz holds the compass...and yes he's always in a pose...because it's to draw attention...to let the audience know..."Look it's pointing to Jack, get it?"

Surreal Wil and Liz ended up together physically in DMc. Not emotionaly. They both disconnected emotionally-a loooong time ago. Will stil wants his father and Liz still wants Jack.

Whats all that crap Tia said Will has a destiny? Its not some kind of fancy line, it meant something. Anybody cannot just stab Davy, there are consecuences to it and that person has to have a good reason in doing so. Wills reason was to free his father and beat EITC. Thats his destiny.

Jack sparrow is our main character. You can choose whoever for ur fav but our main character POTC main character is Jack. Jack cannot just end up with whores, that will totaly hurt the character and the plot. Jack wants the girl, the fans want him to get the girl. DMC did not ended with Will/Liz, they were together physcally but not emotionally.

a bit off-topicness from me again (though I have to agree first with what chiki, shanstar and lovethemtigers said...100% agree)

about the whole jack/will friendship(sounds really tacky when you put slashes between their names but still you know what I mean) on wordplayer.com someone had posted something about will and jack betraying each other and how a love triangle just complicates things and messes the movie up.

terry replied said and I quote:"1. There is no triangle, unless you are referring to the thing Elizabeth wanted most at one point being the chest, and at another point being Jack.

2. At no time did Jack was wibbling about Elizabeth, or vice-versa.

3. If you think Jack using Will as leverage to serve his own interests, or Will taking action against Jack to save a loved one, is a perversion of their relationship in the first movie, then that's what you think.

4. Jack was never enamored of his ship; he was and is enamored of what his ship represents: freedom. And, of course, as it turned out the very thing he wanted so much he was willing to make a deal with the devil to get, has come to represent either a hundred years of servitude (and eventual loss of identity) or death.

Why, it's almost as if Jack claimed the thing he wanted most in the world at the eventual cost of his own freedom. Hm ... I wonder if that idea might be relevant to some other part of the movie? Reflected, refracted and explored throughout the movie, even? Demonstrated in action and dialogue, or even overtly referenced at points?

5. Your suggestion that the story requires a Will/Jack pairing to resolve the triangle presumes there is a triangle to be resolved. "


I know someone already posted a link to this one but numbers 3 and 4 really got my attention cause terry gives us the idea that will and jack were just doing what they had to and not ruining their relationship.

I couldn't makeout what the whole "Why, it's almost as if Jack claimed the thing he wanted most in the world at the eventual cost of his own freedom. Hm ... I wonder if that idea might be relevant to some other part of the movie? Reflected, refracted and explored throughout the movie, even? Demonstrated in action and dialogue, or even overtly referenced at points? " meant. which actions do u think he meant?


BTW WHAT DID "there's no love triangle to be resoleved." MEAN? he said " There is no triangle, unless you are referring to the thing Elizabeth wanted most at one point being the chest, and at another point being Jack." was that what it was? just liz wanting jack at some point? or does it mean the love triangle is actually between lizzie/jack/chest?LOL

anyways sorry for rambling on but I'm really confused what did he mean by this?



-

and since I already rambled on so long may I add one more thing from wordplayer:
Hey Ted!

I really do have to say that you have made some very interesting points; thank you so much for such wonderful insight!

I feel very terrible for bothering you about this, but reading your statements has brought up one very big issue in my mind; it seems to me as if your #1, #2, and #5 statements , the way that I see them, are almost meant to say that there was never really anything between Jack and Elizabeth to begin with, which really breaks my heart, come to think of it; I would absolutely hate to see the Captain`s heart broken in the end, and according to KTTC, nearly 85% of the voters in a poll, including me (at least, when I last checked it) are truly hoping that there may yet be a chance that he will "get the girl"

On the other hand, however, I would be eternally, incredibly greatful to (please!) know whether or not, if it would be at all within your means to say, what you said in #5 was meant to reference the Pearl itself entirely, of if there was also something (or someone) else included there...



here's how he answered:
A triangle is a type of dilemma: Character A must choose between a relationship with Character B or a relationship with Character C.

Do you think DMC ended without Elizabeth making that choice?



this could be a good thing or a bad thing...depends on wether we look at the surface of things(lizzie leaves jack to get rid of the temptation forever and safe will/herself/the crew and live happily everafter) or deep into things(lzzie chooses to get a taste of what it's like and then she feels so heartbroken she can't concentrate on will she has to get the capt'n back)

The love triangle...I dont think there ever was a love triangle. I think it already got resolved in DMC. Its obvious Liz loves Jack, its just she has will to take care of. Like I said, Will/liz ended up together physcally not emotionally. Elizabeth still wants Jack.

thank go there are ppl here who think like me..on worplayer everone was like "yeah totally, then liz/will ended up together" but I think since ted couldn't just TELL them that he had to hint it cause by the end of DMC, if he means the very END of it it's pretty clear that liz wants jack back.

I hate people that try to be clever just by saying open ended things. Grr. Here is what I think they're saying, making sure you can interpret it as Will/Liz or Jack/Liz.

"1. There is no triangle, unless you are referring to the thing Elizabeth wanted most at one point being the chest, and at another point being Jack."
Will: There is no triangle because Liz's attraction to Jack was fleeting
Jack: There is no triangle because Liz has made the choice to have Jack

"2. At no time did Jack was wibbling about Elizabeth, or vice-versa."
Wibbling? Is that supposed to be like pining/desiring? Jeez, and that came from a writer.
Will: Jack and Liz don't really mention each other all that much or act all that lovey-dovey around each other, reason being Liz loves Will and Jack only sees her as a friend
Jack: Not everyone in love "wibbles," and it's a more genuine, realistic love when two adults don't wear their emotions on their sleeve but prefer to think it through (or immaturely deny it)

"3. If you think Jack using Will as leverage to serve his own interests, or Will taking action against Jack to save a loved one, is a perversion of their relationship in the first movie, then that's what you think."
Will: Jack and Will aren't really friends in the true sense of the word
Jack: Jack and Will aren't really friends in the true sense of the word

"4. Jack was never enamored of his ship; he was and is enamored of what his ship represents: freedom. And, of course, as it turned out the very thing he wanted so much he was willing to make a deal with the devil to get, has come to represent either a hundred years of servitude (and eventual loss of identity) or death."
Will: A guy that is willing to do this cares way too much about freedom to commit to anyone, especially someone as challenging as Liz.
Jack: That was what he wanted most at the time, but subtle hints and interpretations lead one to believe his values are changing.

"5. Your suggestion that the story requires a Will/Jack pairing to resolve the triangle presumes there is a triangle to be resolved. "
Will: First of all, Will is so not gay even if Orlando is, and second, Will loving two people would not resolve any love triangle but would result in an awkward threesome no fan wants to see.
Jack: First of all, Jack is not gay even though he wears eyeliner, and second, Jack loving two people does not resolve a love triangle but would make Will and Liz compete for his affection.

See? All open-ended and you can't take these quotes and put spins on them. They aren't meant to do that. They're meant to confuse and be open to interpretation because it circulates rumors and rumors provide great publicity.

can I get a AMEN
GREAT POST !!!

amen praise the Lord

We shuold publish a Jack/Liz Bible lol

Thou shalt not listen to T&T and instead go into thy own little world and make Jack and Lizzie do whatever you want them to do.

THANK U feel a load better now

Originally posted by willofthewisp
Thou shalt not listen to T&T and instead go into thy own little world and make Jack and Lizzie do whatever you want them to do.

thats what I do !!
everyday when I am writing in the POTC7 thread

willofthewisp I think wibbling means "nonsense talk"..he siad there was no nonsense talk between the two, everything had meaning

Surreal44..by the time of the supreme ordeal..Will can only really be reconciling with one of the major things..the father or the woman. I have never seen it be both in a story....ever.

He stabs the heart meaning he has chosen his father, he is reconciling with him. he is the reward he is seeking and by the end of DMC this is by far the most clear thing ever with his character..He wants to have the pearl to save his father..he has made his choice. It is his father and not elizabeth that is the most important thing to him in AWE and DMC. Trust me Will stabs that darn heart, I know this as a fact.

Jack was the one to reconcile with the woman at the end of DMC after his supreme ordeal..and because he didnt reconcile with the father or the gods here..they will now come raging after him in step 10/11..which is where he will be with AWE..and Yes Davy/tia come after him..as does his father.

thanks that makes sense I've read all the Hero's steps you've wrote and this really fits it all...I looked into wordplayer some more(I came by a few intresting user names I know from here like Ericadawn which was cool to see wiff the same user name and Pierce Urlipz from that choke it! thread) and this really triggered my mind:

-- this one is a bit unfair, but the story of Jack imprisoned in human form and then set free is a subtle set up for something in Pirates III.

this was one of terry's reasons as to why the cannibal island serves some importance to the plot..think someone already posted this but thought it was sorta intresting in a way.

I don't get that, that means Jack is a god immprisoned in human form? i'm confused

NOO LOOK AT MY SIIIGGG..its not jaaacckkk

I'm sorry but I having a retarded moment still don't get it. I like the words but I don't seem to relate them with Jack. Please explain to me i'm going desperate

The king and his men stole the queen
From her bed and bound her in her
Bones

- this one is a bit unfair, but the story of Jack imprisoned in human form and then set free is a subtle set up for something in Pirates III.


think... Tia is Calypso (sea goddess) trapped in human form, she has a "dramatic departure" - Naomi Harris

The king and his men?? I'll leave peeps to guess that..if you really wanna know PM me

I get it now. That part in the cannibal island and Jack being a God was meant to be a set up of something thats going to happen in AWE. Meaning Auntie Dalma is going to be the one trapped in human form. I must say that quote is really confusing. It makes you understand like if it is Jack that is trapped in human form.

he means for it to be^^ LOL..as is every other spoiler he posts

are those posted in that wordplayer site?

yeah they are

I should post these words on there but I wold probably get a lawsuit slapped on me by him

EDIT - oopps

Tell me why all the people at Tia's are in mourning. And if they are mourning Jack, how did they find out?

Is it possible that Jack is a Pirate God trapped in human form?

nop

he's not

Terry Is giving away plot details but he's also making it look like something else..whcih is what he does with everything...Ted does the same I think.

she's a "voodoo lady", she knew Jack was going to die before he even came to see her. She had the means to bring him back in her cabin (we see Barbossas legs). She probably told them all that he was dead.

I dont even know if those people are real. They may be water nymphs or they may be the slaves Jack released.

I though that part was a little bit odd, because when they were in the boats nobody seemed to notice those people in the water. It was just like they weren't there. I believed they are the slaves souls guarding Tia's hut.

I agree. I dont know what they are planning. But I'm pretty confident on one or two things..and you will be surprised that J/E ending is NOT one of the things I'm confident on.

I'm not confident on that at all I dont actually think that it will happen with AWE.

I'm just trying to figure out how it could

Originally posted by willofthewisp
Thou shalt not listen to T&T and instead go into thy own little world and make Jack and Lizzie do whatever you want them to do.


i love you so much. that was the best piece of sense i have heard in months.

I don't see how the writers are W/E shippers since when did you get that vibe?..

What I find interesting is how they have visibly introduced J/E..its SMOKING HOT it is far more interesting than anything we have ever seen from W/E..EVER! why even do this if not to attract the audience to that particular relationship? People are obviously gonna lean towards that..especially the males. because its got sex appeal

Sex sells..the golden rule of Hollywood..why do I see no sex appeal with W/E?

you take away those 2 kisses and the line between the cage..and you would swear they were siblings.

Willofthewisp

Star Wars had to do that because Lukes main priority became his father..the hero cant have two major reconciliations(father and the female) during and after the supreme ordeal because it would clash people saw him get the girl already..and would people want to really see that again?. which makes me think Liz might end up on her own because something is zapping back into my mind here about what T&T said about starwars but ep 4/5 were one big story for startwars as is DMC/AWE..meaning Jack dont gots dat female just yet savvy?..well he does but he needs to "return home with"..if he does that is.

Lukes was with the father Han's was with the female.

LovelyOne, i'm all with ya. its so true. they wouldn't have even introduced the j/l element unless they were bored with the w/l element. horny writers resort to the relationship that is actually shockingly hott, totally unexpected and unbearably unique.

Gah, LovelyOne i'm going a little bit crazy if you know what i mean. care to pm me anything? lol.

I dont have anything new

and it seems the writers knew the public would get bored of W/E if you know what i mean..I got bored with it about mid movie 1.

I was like "so why are these two here and having their own story whilst Jack the main character just..........."

LOL i know seriously.... no way was the w/l relationship going to pull off 3 films, even with all their so called "developing".

and here's a question. how the heck are w/l's relationship supposed to develope if they NEVER BLOODY TALK!?!?!?! they just mope around not asking each other the truth behind anything, assuming nonsense about each other, refusing to be honest with each other. its bogus to think they are "growing" because of this.

and everyone is like "they are going to develope and have a better, more mature, more complex relationship in 3." but the thing is, T and T keep saying they don't do internalized conflict. whenever there is character development or growth or anything, they EXTERNALIZE it. they turn it into a plot thing, an action thing. HENCE< DMC.

and in 3, with all we know, whats going on?
Will and Elizabeth are STILL not being honest with each other, barely talking, etc.
Jack and Elizabeth are EXTERNALLY fighting out their inner issues! Trading each other, arguing, etc...

and THAT is how T and T do character growth/developement. Know what I mean?

exactly Kate^^ melodramaic characters the both of them!! (not domestic melodramas)

The writers know what the public want, our hearts true desires . I though COTBP was a good movie, same old boring Disney movie. What else can you expect? The writers are intelligent people that know how to surprise the audiences. And what better to give the audience something shocking and that is less expected. People are going to love that. The writers knew that people were going to get bored if they saw the same thing. Totally agree w/ Kate, the writers wouldn't introduced the J/L thing for no reason or to make the W/E relationship stronger, that would be a bunch of crab.

Melodrama and melodramatic characters:

"In melodramatic cinema, the interior emotions of the characters are expressed in means other than verbal Language: setting, color, music and other aspects in the mise en scene. Big emotions can sometimes not be put into words, and the feeling is displaced into other cinematic codes and signs"

"The function of melodrama is to clarify (make clear) the moral choices we make every day. There is a clear distinction to be made between melodrama and tragedy. The latter usually features noble characters who are determined to pursue a certain goal. Sometimes in conflict with the gods themselves, even to the point of death. There is very little whining or moaning in the acceptance of their destiny because, they themselves have shaped it and take full responsibility for it(can someone say Will?)"


Film Theorist Thomas Elsaesser contrasts action driven narrative with melodramatic story telling "In one sense the drama moves forward by having its central conflicts projected into direct action, a Jail break, a bank robbery a car chase. Not so in domestic melodrama, the range of "strong action" is limited"

PotC isn't a domestic melodrama. The emotions are not expressed inside..you see them projected on screen through other means

and Its only Jack/Liz who seem to do this in DMC

Jack/Liz do have their words..but its the actions that show more about their emotins as do objects like the compass. and other things like the dog and the Kraken IMO.

Wow interesting, So that makes POTC a melodrama? it would be cool if they make AWE a tragedy.



This quote makes a lot of sense in regard to the characters, specially J/L.


True but this also can relate to Jack in the end of DMC, he accepted his fate (feelings), and he was willing to take full responsibility for it.

yes thats true^^^

Do you think AWE may become a tragedy? since it's getting darker.

have i told you guys lately that i love you all? seriously. you guys are awesome and so smart.

LovelyOne, thanks for always getting to the depth of things with your theories!!! they are so important to keep our hopes alive.

Thanks kate I love you too and you msty and shanstar etc..

Yes Misty its turning into tragedy it seems..but tragedy usually revolves around one character "this is Will's story" according to T&T on AWE

sometimes its two but when its a second person that person usually isnt a huge main character with thier own seperate story going on like Elizabeth

if there is a second tragic character they are usually mere plot points

(tia??)

Originally posted by katelovespirate
have i told you guys lately that i love you all? seriously. you guys are awesome and so smart.

LovelyOne, thanks for always getting to the depth of things with your theories!!! they are so important to keep our hopes alive.

Yes everyone's theories are amazing. I believe all of you guys bring in such interesting points, that make a lot of sense. And specially thanks to Lovelyone, for sharing with us her knowledge. It makes this board more interesting. Luv all of you guys 4 ever.

Originally posted by LovelyOne
Thanks kate I love you too and you msty and shanstar etc..

Yes Misty its turning into tragedy it seems..but tragedy usually revolves around one character "this is Will's story" according to T&T on AWE

sometimes its two but when its a second person that person usually isnt a huge main character with thier own seperate story going on like Elizabeth

if there is a second tragic character they are usually mere plot points

(tia??)

to add..I aslo study Classical Civ..and I had to study ancient greek literature with it lol..its amazing how the 2 subjects can tie in so well

I did the Odyssey, and the tragedies: Oedipus, Antigone and Hephaestus

Originally posted by LovelyOne
to add..I aslo study Classical Civ..and I had to study ancient Greek literature with it lol..its amazing how the 2 subjects can tie in so well

I did the Odyssey, and the tragedies: Oedipus, Antigone and Hephaestus


I took English literature and ancient Greek literature as an elective. It was a really good and interesting class. I learned a lot from it. At first I didn't wanted to take it, but I needed the credits for my social science degree. But it was worth it I don't regret taking it.
Is that Classical Civ like a Humanities class?

no its learning about ancient history like the ancient greeks and romans..and we also have to learn the ancient literature side of it too....Which I wasnt so good at because I suck at literatre exams..but I understood it all..just crap at the exams..I passed though

yeah well Will definately fits the bill of the "tragic hero" which is interesting considering the rest of the movie is a dead cut out for a melodrama.

Plus, in a melodramatic setting, Jack would technically be considered the hero, if you take into account the modern re-organization of the melodrama.

plus, T and T made that huge quote about "letting your hero smile often, in every act." If they were serious about that, Jack IS their hero. know what i mean? Will only smiles twice in DMC. literally. and not in a heroic way either... in a passing fancy way.

So if they are making will the tragic hero/protagonist, that pretty much means he has to either die or lose the thing he wants most.

poor Will. ah well. best not wallow in our grief... on to the hotness of liz and jack!!!!!!!!!

agreed

also Its unrealistic for a character to reconcile with 2 main "rewards" the female and the father after the supreme ordeal it cant be both..Wills gonna have to be gaining one and not the other..IMO its his father..thats the very reason he vows to stab the heart..not to save Liz..Its to save his dad.

Originally posted by LovelyOne
agreed

also Its unrealistic for a character to reconcile with 2 main "rewards" the female and the father after the supreme ordeal it cant be both..Wills gonna have to be gaining one and not the other..IMO its his father..thats the very reason he vows to stab the heart..not to save Liz..Its to save his dad.

Right, he will be dying for his father not for Liz. Will's character kind of contradicts himself, remember in COTBP When Will says he is willing to die for her. Well at that point he was, but after he finds his father he realises he is way more important than Liz. And thats why I think he accept it that Liz and him are falling apart. He didn't seem that torn when he saw Liz kissing Jack. He was upset but not angry. I believe that was when he accepted it.

man.....u guys need to shorten a bit about the 12 steps...i cant post anything anymore :/

Originally posted by Chiki Mina
man.....u guys need to shorten a bit about the 12 steps...i cant post anything anymore :/

Why?

read and read and more reading about the steps, its great and all dont get me wrong...but cant we go whats in the movie, like use a litle of our hearts and instincs other than fancy film studies and 1203801238 steps.

Originally posted by Chiki Mina
read and read and more reading about the steps, its great and all dont get me wrong...but cant we go whats in the movie, like use a litle of our hearts and instincs other than fancy film studies and 1203801238 steps.

We were trying to figure out something with the hero 12 steps. Dis you read the previous posts?

never mind lol i'm crazy, this is the wrong thread. We were trying to figure out something that was posted in another thread.

too long..my eyes are tired. nevermind..im such a whiner.

Kate, Misty...PM read..now..singapore bathouse is real! not Jack in there so far however

WHAT? bath house? no JACK? what good is a bath without JACK? *faints* there's still a chance right? ok I'm not gonna get my hopes up to have them smashed again but at least we can watch a reportedly shirtless body double and pretend it's the real thing

That's interesting!!!

What would they use a bath house for???

Dear God.....I hate to say this but I told you guys not to get ur hopes high. I knew there was no such thing as a Jack bath scene....no one listens.

No there is no Jack in that scene, but there's still a looooong way to go. I still have hope to see him in that asian bath.

Theres no confirmation, its great to stay positive. But we cant blinded by what we want to happen. We need confirmation that will be. I just dont want to see no one with their heads down. Lets not try tu put all our eggs in one basket..