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Symbolism

Its not actually the right term to be used when discussing something that means something else in a movie.

Symbolism is what it is. Say you see the cross, you know its Christianity, you see a flag, you know it represents a country..the EITC logo etc.

However say you see a phallic suggestion (Jack and the cannon), or something that looks like something else..(Kraken)..that is symbolism.

Everything else is actually Mise en Scene..french for "Put in the scene"

So now I'm gonna explain something to people who don't just don't see how the dog can be linked into Jack and how Liz mourning at the start and finish can be linked in with a particular theme:

"The use of mise-en-scene elements by a film maker helps the viewer to "read" a scene in a particular way. Mise-en-scene can offer the viewer information and meanings connected to character, genre, atmosphere, mood, place, space and time. Elements of mise-en-ecene may be repeated within a film and they may also change. you should carefully identify the elements which are constant and those which change and consider why this difference occurs"

Mise en scene:

1) setting
2) decor
3) props
"The objects included in a scene are also essential in the generation of meaning. They could give information about genre, historical period or character"
4) costume
5) make-up
6) colour
7) Character body language and movement
(also camera angles often come into play here)

ALL of these can be used in film to create themes/meaning (deeper meaning)



PROPS peeps props

..the dog is a prop, as are its keys..as is the bone, the compass is a prop..all these things are probably not pointless and without meaning they are in my opinion used to generate meaning for the characters.



"Elements of mise-en-ecene may be repeated within a film and they may also change. you should carefully identify the elements which are constant and those which change and consider why this difference occurs"

I take this into consideration when talking about Liz at the start of the movie and Liz at the end of the movie..she's mourning Jack..and its repeated later on at the end. but there is also a difference but the theme be constant..Jack is REALLY gone from her life now..he's not just absent and in a coffin after her mourning at a funeral type scene (mise en scene again peeps)

Just needed to get that in one thread because people just don't seem to understand where I'm coming from when it comes to the dog/Jack theory AND the opening and closing theory..I just needed to have it in one place to explain what the heck I'm on about..

I also think the heart resembles something else as does the key all the men are after on the beach..the wheel probably does mean something too to the theme or character/s..and where they are placed as it rolls along (Jack the underdog no?)

NOW when it comes to lines with double meanings, sound:digetic and non digetic etc..thats not mise-en-scene...I think its "film language."

*searches for sheet*

I always enjoy when you type up film stuff. It's make me understand the movie better. As Jack would say "That's Very Intersting".

LOL thankies

I think the dog is used in the mise-en-scene to help create this theme jack is following IMO. If he does the good deed, drops his keys he gets the reward which is the bone. (Elizabeth for Jack) He also mirrors Jack and his actions in the movie, after Jack's dead..we see that the dog is in fact not dead..he doesnt have the keys..he has the bone

Oh I was wrong..Film language means everything about film (god I should be ashamed at forgetting that lol):

"Film Language" describes the way directors, producers and editors create meaning from the moving images of film, video and television. We "decode" the meanings in a similar way to how we interpret written language, but much more so, we do not just "read what we see" - we bring into our interpretation of moving images a whole range of pre-existing expectation and knowledge that affect the meaning we take from what we see.

Everything that is used to create meaning/themes,deeper meaning in films:
1) Signs, codes and Conventions
2) Mise en scene
3) Editing
4) Shot types
5) Camera Angle
6) Camera movement
7) Lighting
8) "Deigesis" and sound
9) Visual effects/ SFX
10) Narrative
11) Genre
12) Iconography
13) The star system
14) Realism

i swear...everyday lovely has 4 different NEW threads lol

this is me just trying to back up my agruments about the dog, bone and keys having meaning with Jack and his theme in the movie with something solid

..but people seem to be ignoring the thread lol..I keep trying to get surreal44 and willofthewisp to take notice but they dont lmao darn you girls

Just trying to prove I'm not looking too deep with crack pot theories

I know that anything that is centeral in a scene and is like prop usually generates deeper meaning in movies...more often than not.

Good Lord ppl are still arguing about the damn dog..??

well not argument as such..Just debate...

oh let me rephrase

Good Lord ppl are still debating over the damn dog..??

whats wrong with that^^?

lmao nothing wrong w u. My question is WHATS WRONG WITH THE DOG!? Why is it so hard no to see the similarities bewtween the Dog and Jack. Why was the special ending focused on the Dog. It obviously meant something. Dog is an original character from POTC the ride. And Jack is our main character, they cant kill both of them. And both are facing with the same problem and msut figure out a way to escape.

Jack out of the kraken/daveys locker
Dog out of the cannibal island

Each got what they wanted, which got them in trouble, now they both must figure out how to get out of trouble to be with who.what they want most. Is it that hard ppl..??

Im slightly mad at the dog....I had to wait through al those credits! (whihc in my opinion seemed longer than the movie lol) just to watch that little 5 second clip...and yes i know its probably important and related to Jack but i mean I really had to go to the bathrooom but since Im in love with POTC and i heardabout the clip at the end I just HAD to see it...so I was slightly mad at the dog for just HAVING to be at the END of the credits! lol sry felt like sharing...


I personally think the dog COULD be realted to Jack;s story in some way...i still think he might not and just might be somehting added into the movie becasue it was in the ride...i could argue (excuse me...DEBATE) either way...

Originally posted by CaptinJackLover
Im slightly mad at the dog....I had to wait through al those credits! (whihc in my opinion seemed longer than the movie lol) just to watch that little 5 second clip...and yes i know its probably important and related to Jack but i mean I really had to go to the bathrooom but since Im in love with POTC and i heardabout the clip at the end I just HAD to see it...so I was slightly mad at the dog for just HAVING to be at the END of the credits! lol sry felt like sharing...


I personally think the dog COULD be realted to Jack;s story in some way...i still think he might not and just might be somehting added into the movie becasue it was in the ride...i could argue (excuse me...DEBATE) either way...

thats cool lol..I can understand people having that opinion..but Imma keep my opinion lol, Cuz I had to write a screen play (did it on a scene from the Odyssey) I got told of for even adding a bird in that flew over Odysseus shoulder..my teacher thought it meant nothing so he told me to take it out or I might get a lower grade..but he didn't understand that back then birds were signs to read the future..but he still told me to take it out because general public don't know that.

Its only the Americans wh o really know that the dog is art of the ride the rest of the world don't.

Also I really don't think they would just add in a meaningless thing from the ride..I mean they added in Tortuga's scenes (similar to the ride) but it wasn't just a random thing added, it had to tie in with the story in movie 1.

I also feel that they left that to the end because its a rather large hint when you think hard enough...he's got the bone.

link that back to what the dog had before and how he behaved towards his two friends..then how he lost them he transformed in character..Why even write in that he lost his key if it meant nothing to anything? They could have just left the dog with them but no they gave him a big bone to hold on a throne..

Its a huge contrast..I remember seeing it thinking..
1.where are his keys? Its most beloved possession
2. why does he have a bone?..a reward?? give a dog a bone"

then I linked it in with what I saw earlier and it basically mirrors Jack in DMC

Its an add in from the ride yes..but If I was writing this screenplay..I would know better than to just have him there as a meaningless character(I was taught this)..Its wise to also use him as a way to help generate theme..something that simple dialogue cant always do. Its the theme for Jack anyway which is..do the good deed and you "gain the rewards that follow" - Elizabeth. The dog did the good deed, he kept his friends safe...we hen see him with a bone, reward. Jack just crossed step 9 before the mocie closed (seizing of the sword/reward)

all the dog had to do to gain the bone in movie 1 was drop his keys, do the right thing and he would get the reward...which is much tastier than cold metal keys no?

watch movie 1..listen to what Jack says to the dog/himself as he hesitates to come close and help him..

"come on you stinky, mangy COWARD"(runs off)..is this how he really sees himself? The dog runs off clinging to his keys rather than help someone else...like a coward.

I would say yes because on the island he owns up to being one.

I'm here! I'm reading!


But I got promoted at work and now I have almost no time to post. Ah, what I do for food. Are there any jobs around where I get paid to do nothing?


At any rate, I see what you are saying, although, on WordPlayer, when asked about the canon as a phallic symbol for Jack, one of the writers replied that sometimes a canon is just a canon. That is my main argument that not everything is symbolic.


Not everything is put into this movie as a deep symbol, because obviously, a lot of that stuff would be necessary to fit in with the times (sort of, since some of the objects and history are screwy. Ah, the magic of movies!).


And my main objection has to do with how you relate EVERYTHING to Jack, or Jack/Elizabeth. There are tons of other characters in the movie, each one with their own story, and some of these symbollic things you view as being J/E could actually mean something else.


For example, I don't think the dog represents Jack. I think the dog is a little plot device (same with the monkey). Notice that both animals are used at the end of the movie, and notice too, that they are both doing something that is involved with immortality.


The chest, the coin, the throne and the bone could be significant clues, and since they are all linked to Jack (here, now I'm linking stuff to Jack ), perhaps it is symbollic of what happens to him?


I don't know. I'm just tossing in an idea. I like symbolism, and your teacher is kind of a retard for assuming that little uneducated people like me wouldn't understand the significance of the bird.


We peons may not go to college, but that doesn't mean that we don't pick up on things.

I completely see the whole Jack/Dog thing. The ending scene after the credits wasn't even that funny or anything so it had to have more meaning lol

Although the dog and the entire Cannibal Island scene may have had more to do with Calypso and what happens to her rather than with Jack.


Did you notice the huts? They looked like spider webs! The particular web that they look like is a funnel web. Scary.

There is a great post on Wordplayer about the Cannibal scene
Here

If it isn't showing up right sorry, just copy and paste the part between wordplayer and 85338

I agree not everything has meaning..its usually the ones that appear to link in with a particular theme..they usually help express it.

I also disagree the theme is raised that Jack has to do the good deed to get the reward. The dog does it and we see him get it as does Jack

Its important not to over-annalyze and not to under-annalyze.

>> While the cannibal island sequence was one of my favorites, it had no bearing
>> at all on the plot.

That is a very rare thing to do^^Willofthewisp you were right

Still its very rare thing to do with a script but I suppose because Its Jack sparrow they can. They would have never done that with PotC1

thanks Ericadawn

also funny how they dont even mention the dog...again..

Its interesting that they dont..cuz the dog is gonna be in the 3rd too I think...

I still stick by it. The dog helps raise the theme of Jack's character.

OH WAIT LOL..nt he didnt say what i said about the plot^^^ that that was a comment made for him to reply to ...my bad

so I wasnt wrong..they didnt just add that in for no reason.


-- this one is a bit unfair, but the story of Jack imprisoned in human form and then set free is a subtle set up for something in Pirates III.

*COUGH* TIA DALMA! *COUGH.*...wow what a crabby woman she is ay?

Lovely, you lost me big time lol

Who said improsined in human form?? I thought Jack "dies" and is reborn as a new man. Just a change of character.

no they just mean the theme is brought up in DMC where someone can be trapped in human form(they thought Jack was a god trapped in human form)..we all know Tia is Calypso trapped in human form

OOOOOOOOOOOOO. *slaps hand on forhead*

The cannibal scene, when they thought Jack was a god trapped in human form. When its actually Auntie dalma traped in human form. I think thats funny..

More evidence in Tia's mind to think they belong together if that be the case. Plot twist!

What were the spices and stuff from the EITC were doing in that island??

Originally posted by willofthewisp
More evidence in Tia's mind to think they belong together if that be the case. Plot twist!

lol hell no..she's too CRABBY for that..

they also recognized the dog as a god..so this must be a plot twist! Tia and the dog

HA god is dog spelled backwards.

is tia turning into a crab or something? what did i miss? cause i come back and suddenly everyone is making crab jokes...

only me and shanstar making crab jokes I feel like making a few jokes on worldplayer or something..see what they say

I really wanna say that as a response but I cant reply to that

I dunno how to join to add responses to their posts.


I wanna quote this:

-- this one is a bit unfair, but the story of Jack imprisoned in human form and then set free is a subtle set up for something in Pirates III.

and say "I wonder if the cannibal islanders enjoy the taste of crabs then?"

if it turns out tia and the dog im just gonna throw up all my popcorn...

even if I did try to join..Im certain erica and surreal44 would do all they could to stop me..: /I'm far too brash for that site no?



someone called TC's reply:

Upon watching this scene a second time my thought was that Will was behaving very captain like. The crew members were actually listening to him and following his orders. Maybe Will eventually becoming the captain of his own ship is the destiny that Tia Dalma is referring to early on in the movie.

I'll SAY^^^ ..he's the next Davy J

I will stop them first before they even get the chance to stop you...
*cracks knucles*

Originally posted by Surreal_44



But I got promoted at work and now I have almost no time to post. Ah, what I do for food. Are there any jobs around where I get paid to do nothing?



Work at a library! I'm telling you, it's the way to go if you're in college, or a mere peon.

The following is what Jack says to the dog when he is in the jail cell:

Jack: Come on you filthy, slimy, mangy CUR.

Sorry, it's not coward but cur.

IMO T/T say in one of their steps to a story is "Don't kill the dog". I guess that could translate to don't kill the rogue (Jack) or literally don't kill the dog. Jack has to get back to that island to save the dog before the end of AWE. I am still unclear on why all the people in the swamp by Tia's hut were morning Jack's death. How did they know about it?
Telephone, telegraph, blackberry, e-mail, or smoke signals?

what could cur be then?
there is no meaning behind the world Cur...unless it is part of a longer word..Curvy? Curby? Cursed?

I heard it as Caw..I think Jack has a rather cockney accent at times..

Caward

British cockney. I dont think americans pick it up too well.

EDIT - ok my bad cur is a dog yes it was probably cur

Ok the meaning of Cur:

1. a mongrel dog, esp. a worthless or unfriendly one.
2. a mean, cowardly person.

Cur, Coward whats the difference ay?

Searched another site Dictionary:

cur:

n 1: an inferior dog or one of mixed breed 2: a cowardly and despicable person

heck even Liz calls him despicable in movie 1 he then says "sticks and stones" as if words will never hurt him..he then says Cur to the dog and it"hurts him".. "Oh I didnt mean it!" - Jack

from good ole Cambridge dictionary:

1 a mongrel (= dog of mixed type), especially one that is frightening or fierce

2 a person who is thought to be worthless or cowardly


Ok I'll stop

I bow to you (with hands held in prayer-like position)......like I have said before, just too smart.

My little Merriam-Webster just says: Cur: a mongrel dog.

But having lived in the country for many years cur does not necessarily mean coward.

Now, your assignment if you choose to accept it, is to find out the ending for sure, beyond a reasonable doubt. And don't let the dog begile you on your quest.

Tee hee I thought you actually got me good there, I was like "NOOOOOOO" then I looked up the meaning of Cur and I was like "YAAAAY"..thanks BTW you just helped me kinda have more back up to my dog/Jack theory

Jack is kinda saying both lol..cuz the dog is behaving like a coward and not coming near enough and he's also a mut..

But then again Jack looks like a rough mangy mut..and he's also despicable and cowardly in character..as is Mr dog. (at the moment anyway) By DMC?? heck no..the dog is brave.

I do know the "current" ending for AWE ..but I dunno if its gonna change or not..

I read that the ending for DMC was kept from the crew til the last minute and that everyone in the hut thought Anamaria was going to come down the stairs.

But then I got to thinking (smell smoke?) how could they have hidden Barbosa from the crew when he has to be in make-up for at least two hours before his films.

I don't know anymore. Just too confused, to many ambiguous statements and all the double talk from T/T. Unless they have built a bunch of new theatres in the last year, I don't know how they will top opening weekend of DMC, because that weekend all the seats were sold
out for each show.

Yeah totally they know how to keep things secret and out of the scripts^^ this is whats got me thinking..because the endng I know about isnt exactly a twist or spectacular. And the twist to AWE is suppsed to be so shocking that it has to be reeased at exactly the same time worldwide

and its not Will stabs the heart..that was bloomin obvious..and its pretty well known now that Tia is calypso

there was something REALLY odd about the salmon revision script ending..like random and unexplained...they have now "removed" that particuar scene apprently

I have so many ideas about Jack and his back story. I just hope he winds up being someone completely opposite from what he looks like now.

Jack is a good man, but is capable of making hard decisions when necessary and following through even if he did not want to die.

I think his actions are courtly, more like a fop at court. I just have a bad feeling about him and Lizzy.

I know I don't want to be leaving the theatre crying like I did the 15 times I saw DMC.

I never was a JD fan and can't say I am now, but I love his portrayal of the character JCS. I just cannot give it up. Boo-hoo......

Me too. My feeling has turned to one that is a bad feeling.

I don't want to see Jack lose out to a ****ing back up character. I'm not joking here. Will is a BACK UP CHARACTER...no one really gives a toss about him. Liz is the leading Lady Jack is the leading male, not Will the "thrill" I cant believe they are making this "Will's story" they are obviously doing this because the sod dies at the end. Need to give him a decent story before hey do so.

I feel this way now. And I would feel this way if I wasnt a shipper..I was just one of the general public before coming to this forum and I said "J/E is hot EW is not." even way back then..The only reason I went there was to watch Jack Sparrow be Jack Sparrow. Now I like the character of Liz too, she's my second fave all because of J/S and him being with her in the movie.

If they screw with JS's happiness they screw with the audiences happiness.

And this = box office suicide
even the people who dnt like the thought of Jack ending up with Liz..

do they REALLY want to see their fave character's heart be ripped out and stamped on in AWE?

cuz if that happens I'm not buying that DVD and im only gonna watch AWE once..the W/E shippers can all rejoice in Jack's pain all they want as long as Will the pansy is happy.

Why the hell do they even watch this movie? Its about pirates not ****** blacksmiths and thier pasty caged wives

Will Turner will never be a convincing or interesting "pirate" to watch on screen ..he's too much of a pansy

JD was nominated for BEST ACTOR nor Best Supporting Actor for COTBP.

So you are right about a back up character or supporting actor as it were.

I just think T/T haven't explored the idea that even though the Black Pearl represents "freedom", so can a good relationship/marriage.

yeah I agree with you Terry did say that the pearl didnt resemble freedom to Jack at the end of DMC however.


..and forgive me I edited that post and went off on a big fat rant lol

Okey dokey..... "noted"

the first movie the pearl represented freedom He wasnt in love with the ship, he was in love what the ship symbolized: Freedom

By the end of DMC.."Its only a ship, mate."