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It has been said that a heroe is defined by his villains. The greater the villain the greater the heroe.

Joker - Batman
Lex Luthor - Superman
Sabertooth - Wolverine
Red Skull - Captain America
Leader - Hulk
Dr. Doom - Fantastic Four
Zoom - Flash

But if the villain never defeats the super heroe then the villain loses it's effectiveness as a character.
For instance: Bebop and Rocksteady (warthog and Rhinocerous) the TMNT villains used to be too tough for all four of them. Too strong, too ruthless. After a while however they became 100% useless.

However if the heroe loses then the villain becomes the one of the most frightening forces in comics and makes the heroe that much more effective.
For instance: When Joker killed Jason Todd it was a loss for Batman that had a permanent effect on Batman's life and further developed the Joker into one of the most lethal villains in Comics. Batman has had many losses against the Joker with small victories. These are important.

Thoughts?

Originally posted by Psyquis52
It has been said that a heroe is defined by his villains. The greater the villain the greater the heroe.

Joker - Batman
Lex Luthor - Superman
Sabertooth - Wolverine
Red Skull - Captain America
Leader - Hulk
Dr. Doom - Fantastic Four
Zoom - Flash

But if the villain never defeats the super heroe then the villain loses it's effectiveness as a character.
For instance: Bebop and Rocksteady (warthog and Rhinocerous) the TMNT villains used to be too tough for all four of them. Too strong, too ruthless. After a while however they became 100% useless.

However if the heroe loses then the villain becomes the one of the most frightening forces in comics and makes the heroe that much more effective.
For instance: When Joker killed Jason Todd it was a loss for Batman that had a permanent effect on Batman's life and further developed the Joker into one of the most lethal villains in Comics. Batman has had many losses against the Joker with small victories. These are important.

Thoughts?
Are we supposed to say we agree or disagree or what?

Just a basic discussion would be nice. You know. The usual stuff. Opinions, judgements, disagreements. Whatever.

Originally posted by Psyquis52
Just a basic discussion would be nice. You know. The usual stuff. Opinions, judgements, disagreements. Whatever.
Oh, well I agree.

I've always been especially fond of the whole Batman/Joker dynamic. Truth be told, that's probably my favorite rivalry in comics. The part I like most, is that if Batman ever DOES break down and finally off the Joker, then he's actually beaten Batman because that's what he's always daring Batman to do.

See it's not so much "losing". I mean look at the Green Goblin. He and Spider-man go toe-to-toe and Spidey usually wins. But does that matter? No. Goblin is like Joker. He may lose to Spidey all the time, but he's more than just a physical villain. Just as the Joker excels at screwing with Batman, as does Green Goblin.

Old villains are boring now. They don't have the same effect.

Originally posted by MuffinmanMike
See it's not so much "losing". I mean look at the Green Goblin. He and Spider-man go toe-to-toe and Spidey usually wins. But does that matter? No. Goblin is like Joker. He may lose to Spidey all the time, but he's more than just a physical villain. Just as the Joker excels at screwing with Batman, as does Green Goblin.
It's not losing the fight. It's the feeling of loss.
For instance: Batman may beat the Joker every time but how many times does he do it before the Joker gets away with something horrible?
Same with Green Goblin. Spiderman does beat him frequently but how often does he actually stop him?

It can also be a feeling of loss before you even face your opponent.
Like when Wolverine had to fight Sabertooth in the old days. Back when Sabertooth was stronger and more deadly. In those days you could almost feel a sense of dread in Wolverine whenever the name Sabertooth came up. Or when Omega Red first appeared and it was like Wolverine didn't stand a chance.

Or even Superman vs Darkseid. There wasn't a chance for him at all. He couldn't win because his opponent was stronger, smarter, and all around more lethal than him.

This brings about a sense of "loss". That's what I'm feeling some of these characters are missing nowadays.

Originally posted by Turok16
Old villains are boring now. They don't have the same effect. Just out of curiousity: what villains do you consider interesting now?

I agree. I look to the the Spider-Man/Green Goblin dynamic as an example. Spider-Man may beat Norman, but the Green Goblin has taken away his Gwen Stacy (twice if count what he did to her in Sin's Past, which I don't acknowlegde btw), his best friend and his daughter. In the end Spider-Man may defeat Norman and send him to jail but the Green Goblin has really messed up Peter's loss.

But yet with this kinda loss, the fact that Peter trugdes onward only serves to further humanize and stregthen the character. We get to see his anguish and his resolve and we get to really feel what he's going through. Its moments like this that not only serve to make villians more deadly, but also make our heroes even more herioc. Its a win-win (if done right of course) for both the hero and villian.

Some more to add to your list

Spider-Man-Green Goblin
Daredevil-Bullseye

Punisher is defined by his loss. He symbolizes what happens to a heroe when he loses everything.

That's one of the things about him that makes him fascinating.

Originally posted by Psyquis52
Punisher is defined by his loss. He symbolizes what happens to a heroe when he loses everything.

That's one of the things about him that makes him fascinating.

I agree.

Originally posted by Alfheim
I agree.
Yay! I'm winning!

Originally posted by Psyquis52
Punisher is defined by his loss. He symbolizes what happens to a heroe when he loses everything.

That's one of the things about him that makes him fascinating.

Not to sure I agree here. Punisher is defined by his loss, but his loss is what drove him to become a hero. ie He wasn't a hero before he lost everything.

He is fascinating as hell though