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I guess by themselves I always dismissed these things as annoying and tried not paying too much attention to them. Lately though when I've been thinking of the 3 of them combined and reading the threads on this board and thinking back to the games and books I've become pretty agitated. I remember growing up during the 80's and watching the OT and hearing them speak about the Republic Era Jedi as if they were the SW galaxy equivalent of Spartans, Samurai, and any other fabeled, noble warrior of their day. Seeing that I couldn't wait to see the Jedi in action in the Clone Wars they spoke about in the OT. So flash forward to the PT and I'm getting to see the Old Republic knights in action... everything is still fine.

Then the EU which I've been a fan of since '94 and the Zahn trilogy starts producing video games... Ok, well even then I'm playing some cool stuff but Teras Kasi comes out and I just find myself laughing as I return it to the store a week later. A chick beating a Jedi's ass unarmed? A Tusken Raider as her apprentice? Surely Lucas licensing will look closely at anything before such a lame product hits the shelves again. Still, this is nothing.

The first thing that really got me pissed was when they decided they were going to make Kyle Katarn a Jedi Knight after undergoing some half ass training. On top of that, they went on to give him powers Luke didn't even have at the time like lightining and lifting force choke. Here I was thinking 'what makes this douche so special he can have a better array than Luke?' I mean even from the beginning I couldn't get past dude's name. Kyle Katarn? That's like someone from your school being named Larry Lion or Trevor Tiger... It was corny overkill to me.

Then Lucas licensing shifted the crap storm into hyperspeed as I don't remember which of the next two arcs came next. For sake of staying with the new Jedi order let's just say it was the Vong/NJO series. Ok, WHAT THE F*CK were they on when they decided to invent some of these techniques? I mean the 'Battle Meld' where everyone's thoughts were one? Getthefuggouttaherewiththatbullshit. And where Lomi Plo killed a Vong by using a Force laser-grid-beam-thingy technique. That was enough for me to stop reading the NJO series... and I've read EVERY novelized series. What's next? Force kamehameha? Force beams coming out of the eyes a la Cyclops style?

Finally, the piece de resistance was the *gasp* KOTOR games. I'm sure some of the younger peeps want to tp my house seeing that but hear me out. Granted, I didn't have a problem with the gameplay itself. In fact, I was a fan of both the games. But when you introduce another unpredented technique like it's nothing its on the road of ridiculousness. Force draining a whole planet? Are you kidding me? Some zombie sith who's cheating death yet Palpatine doesn't mention it when he's giving the Plagueis pitch to Ani? Strange you'd think that'd be a Sith prerequisite technique right up there with Force lightning. Yet no one else replecates it. Some of the stuff they do in the KOTOR games just borders on Superman/Silver Surfer type powers, and frankly it warps the fabric of the SW tangibility IMO.

I'm not hating on the authors of these books or developers of these games because they're just trying to make a living like everyone else. I'm just angered that the geniuses down at LL allow all the liberties to be taken. Because now, when I think of the PT Jedi I don't see the Golden Age of the Jedi(and rightly so they DID all die). I just see weak Jedi's who's role ended up being minor in comparison to what seem like ultra powerful Jedi of other EU stories.

It almost makes you wonder, was the PT/OT held at the most exciting time of the SW timeline? There were plenty of other times when more Jedi and Sith were around and arguably more was at stake...


/End rant. *whew*

I agree. Completely.

thats why there is a diffrence between EU and Movies, the Movies are the LAW, and Lucas' creation. everything else is EU and "use your imagination" type stuff. dont sweat it man

This thread bugs me.

Of course Lucas is not going to be using things from EU. That is a complete no brainer. In addition, of course EU is going to **** with continuity and do whatever the hell they want...

Pinpointing Teras Kasi and Jedi Knight as the worst of it, however, I completely disagree with. In regards to Teras Kasi, that's all been retconned. Said 'chick' is actually an Emperor's Hand, trained in martial arts rather than lightsaber-use. The Force can make martial arts pretty damned deadly. And Jedi Knight...well, array of powers is a video game thing, but at least they're not ridiculous powers. It is also five years after ROTJ, I do believe? Luke was already a great deal more powerful, and still surpasses Kyle Katarn in the current timeline.

KOTOR1 is fun and all, but the KOTOR series...Force Destroy Droid? Neat! Where the **** did THAT come from? Most of their outrageous stuff is solely to make the game more unique, but when viewed in fandom...no.

But NJO does indeed take the cake. More than KOTOR. Can't wait to see where Legacy of the Force takes us!

Luke Skywalker, Jedi Master, gained the power to force crush entire planets...

While cutting himself off from the force!

KoToR wasn't that bad, it showed more of the Force, that was good, how much more powerful it is than the Death Star as explained by Vader.

NJO, yuck, they turned Star Wars from a basic storyline to some Religious thing, plus the Vong were pretty stupid in my opinion, here the Force can't affect them or something

Kyle Katarn was pretty cool, and the reason he had those powers was because he used the Dark Side, Luke didn't, he's basically Luke's Mace Windu.

And I can see a person killing a Jedi unarmed

Wow, I was expecting harsh protest to this. I guess I'm not THAT crazy.

But whilst I'm back here again let me add one more thing. I first read Courtship of Princess Leia years ago while in my early teens. Reading it now, I realize that fat uni-bomber redneck of an author Dave Wolverton is right up there with these guys. Does anyone else remember his half baked abilities he gave Luke? Using the Force to navigate hyperspace better than a navcomp? Flying through the air after ejecting from his X-Wing above Dathomir? This is Neverending Story series type stuff. These mentions seem nitpicky I know, but I feel like I'm forgetting another laughable power he's only used in this book. Someone chime in if you can remember.

NJO series is shit... I've read Vector prime and I think the books should be banned from Star Wars (along with Yuzzhang Vong) just because of its sheer queerness...

Tsk,tsk,tsk.

Why does everyone hate NJO? i have been in the SW forum for over a year and everyone says it is stupid, gay, etc But why? I read all 18 books in 3 months and loved every second of it. It was an increadabe series with a lot of action and it was awsome.

Originally posted by Darth Scythe
Wow, I was expecting harsh protest to this. I guess I'm not THAT crazy.

Nah, it's generally accepted around here that the EU went over the top.


Most of the super-power love is in the vs. area.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Nah, it's generally accepted around here that the EU went over the top.


Most of the super-power love is in the vs. area.

Werd. That makes sense when you compare the 2 forums.

Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
Why does everyone hate NJO? i have been in the SW forum for over a year and everyone says it is stupid, gay, etc But why? I read all 18 books in 3 months and loved every second of it. It was an increadabe series with a lot of action and it was awsome.

I totally agree. all u lot who think NJO is a load of rubbish are mental! why can't you graps that the beauty of it is in the way it relates directly to the core of a person's being - all the ethics and morality stuff is what makes people people! many fans see SW as somewhere to escape to in times of need, something to turn to for answers and NJO provides. in this sense, SW can be as real as the real world - and in the real world, this stuff needs to be dealt with.
Del Rey and LL did a fantastis job with NJO and they continue to do so with LotF - suck on that!

I could voice my argument, but have decided against it.

Originally posted by Nactous
I could voice my argument, but have decided against it. Smart.

And NJO is a load of rubbish because, in comparison to the rest of SW, it went overboard. They'd given the Jedi alot of enemies and they overcame all of them. For a new series they needed a new enemy that would pose a big challenge to them and the Galaxy. Ala the Vong.

But the Vong were too much, the whole not existing within the known boundaries of the Force because a thinking planet took the ability from them was a justified "WTF?" The whole aspect of the Force the NJO took to in the later novels was also a bunch of BS. We go from the classic "Light is Good and Dark is Evil," to "It's all the same thing. There is no Dark or Light. And for that matter, there is no spoon either."

And of course the Heros HAD to overcome the Vong somehow. So they gave the Jedi powers worthy of the Gods. Luke especially. It got carried away. I feel this is one of the reasons that they're now writing books in which Luke is dead and gone so that his Superpowers don't interfere with the new villains.

^Listen to this man.^

Originally posted by Tangible God
Smart.

And NJO is a load of rubbish because, in comparison to the rest of SW, it went overboard. They'd given the Jedi alot of enemies and they overcame all of them. For a new series they needed a new enemy that would pose a big challenge to them and the Galaxy. Ala the Vong.

But the Vong were too much, the whole not existing within the known boundaries of the Force because a thinking planet took the ability from them was a justified "WTF?" The whole aspect of the Force the NJO took to in the later novels was also a bunch of BS. We go from the classic "Light is Good and Dark is Evil," to "It's all the same thing. There is no Dark or Light. And for that matter, there is no spoon either."

And of course the Heros HAD to overcome the Vong somehow. So they gave the Jedi powers worthy of the Gods. Luke especially. It got carried away. I feel this is one of the reasons that they're now writing books in which Luke is dead and gone so that his Superpowers don't interfere with the new villains.

And did that totally keep you from enjoying the books? if it did, you think way too much and that is not a compliment.
I didn't see Luke become to powerful at all. he turned a dovin basal inside out... and then fainted. wow. that was not too hard, considering a dovin basal cant take, like what, 10 laser cannon blasts from a ship.

Kyp did the same and didn't faint, but than got pwned by two slayers. way too overpowered.

and the whole philosophy of the force thing, so what. i hardly gave that a second glance. some people choose to change their religion because new evidence comes to light. whatever. again, and i repeat, did that totally keep you from enjoying the books? if it did, you think way too much and that is not a compliment.

I appreciate the fact that authors decided to write about the legacy of Luke and the boths are quite enjoyable, but the certain material (like the Vong) is kinda screwed up.

so it is something different. accept it, dont reject it and you wont find it bad at all.

I agree with the original poster, completely

It is the sheer inteptitude of Star Wars authors that has let it happen. Kevin J. Anderson may be one of the greatest science fiction authors of the age, but he was the one primarily responsible for turning the Force into LotR and Harry Potter-class magic. Exar Kun's spirit putting a post-DE Luke into a coma? Exar Kun's spirit imbuing Kyp with the power to resurrect the Sun Crusher?

Tom Veitch is also responsible for giving Emperor Palpatine the power of Force Storms (which is completely beyond what I consider to be 'mystical').

The KotoR games are fun to play, but they - like LotF and the Legacy comics - have recycled storylines because the creators are simply too incompetent to come up with creative storylines.

If there's another: "the Sith return in a bid to control the galaxy - and nearly succeed until that one special Jedi foils them" plotline, I'm going to scream.

Timothy Zahn is the best all around author in SW. And, yet, he too overpowers some characters and undermines others. Thrawn can get an extraordinary readout of tactics from simply looking at artwork. Completely baseless - especially when Thrawn doesn't have superhuman cognitive powers. C'Boath being on par with RotJ Palpatine (though this is retconned)? Ridiculous.

And, yet, he made Luke very weak (or more realistic, I should say), in Survivor's Quest. The problem there is, this is set like 12 years after Dark Empire - and Luke has trouble taking out a single modified droideka.

These inconsistencies are stupid.

LotF is just as bad. Lumiya (despite being weaker than suit-Vader) is capable of creating phantoms in the Force that are as powerful as LotF Luke himself. Very, very stupid.

I prefer the old days. When Jedi were just tough.;Luke was pretty good, but not invincible; when Force push, pull, speed, jump, and mind trick were standard and basically it; when everyone feared Darth Vader; when Yoda and the Emperor were too powerful for lightsabers.

Those were the good days.

Originally posted by Escape81



LotF is just as bad. Lumiya (despite being weaker than suit-Vader) is capable of creating phantoms in the Force that are as powerful as LotF Luke himself. Very, very stupid.

I prefer the old days. When Jedi were just tough.;Luke was pretty good, but not invincible; when Force push, pull, speed, jump, and mind trick were standard and basically it; when everyone feared Darth Vader; when Yoda and the Emperor were too powerful for lightsabers.

Those were the good days.

Wow, I had already forgot about the Force Phantoms. I'm still hoping to get a good explanation of it, but rather they'll probably just say it was due Lumiyas 'awesome' power.

Well id like to agree with one thing escape said a while ago, DB POD really screwed things up, giving all of banes credit to revan. Who ever wrote that book is a fanboy of revan, and that guy himself worked with bioware making the kotor game. I only like kotor revan, not POD revan

I find james luceno the ok ok type, i really liked RODV while i didnt really like the unifying force because the areas and the charcters were very hard to imagine and see it virtually, Other than that i find RODV quite good

Although i find DE a major contradiction when stated by GL who is suppose to bring balance to the force which vader did but then palpatine comes back to wreck havok and make the sith return

Originally posted by Gideon
It is the sheer inteptitude of Star Wars authors that has let it happen. Kevin J. Anderson may be one of the greatest science fiction authors of the age, but he was the one primarily responsible for turning the Force into LotR and Harry Potter-class magic. Exar Kun's spirit putting a post-DE Luke into a coma? Exar Kun's spirit imbuing Kyp with the power to resurrect the Sun Crusher?

Tom Veitch is also responsible for giving Emperor Palpatine the power of Force Storms (which is completely beyond what I consider to be 'mystical').

The KotoR games are fun to play, but they - like LotF and the Legacy comics - have recycled storylines because the creators are simply too incompetent to come up with creative storylines.

If there's another: "the Sith return in a bid to control the galaxy - and nearly succeed until that one special Jedi foils them" plotline, I'm going to scream.

Timothy Zahn is the best all around author in SW. And, yet, he too overpowers some characters and undermines others. Thrawn can get an extraordinary readout of tactics from simply looking at artwork. Completely baseless - especially when Thrawn doesn't have superhuman cognitive powers. C'Boath being on par with RotJ Palpatine (though this is retconned)? Ridiculous.

And, yet, he made Luke very weak (or more realistic, I should say), in Survivor's Quest. The problem there is, this is set like 12 years after Dark Empire - and Luke has trouble taking out a single modified droideka.

These inconsistencies are stupid.

LotF is just as bad. Lumiya (despite being weaker than suit-Vader) is capable of creating phantoms in the Force that are as powerful as LotF Luke himself. Very, very stupid.

I prefer the old days. When Jedi were just tough.;Luke was pretty good, but not invincible; when Force push, pull, speed, jump, and mind trick were standard and basically it; when everyone feared Darth Vader; when Yoda and the Emperor were too powerful for lightsabers.

Those were the good days.
What, dude no. Timothy Zahn is awful.

Originally posted by Darth Scythe
I guess by themselves I always dismissed these things as annoying and tried not paying too much attention to them. Lately though when I've been thinking of the 3 of them combined and reading the threads on this board and thinking back to the games and books I've become pretty agitated. I remember growing up during the 80's and watching the OT and hearing them speak about the Republic Era Jedi as if they were the SW galaxy equivalent of Spartans, Samurai, and any other fabeled, noble warrior of their day. Seeing that I couldn't wait to see the Jedi in action in the Clone Wars they spoke about in the OT. So flash forward to the PT and I'm getting to see the Old Republic knights in action... everything is still fine.

Then the EU which I've been a fan of since '94 and the Zahn trilogy starts producing video games... Ok, well even then I'm playing some cool stuff but Teras Kasi comes out and I just find myself laughing as I return it to the store a week later. A chick beating a Jedi's ass unarmed? A Tusken Raider as her apprentice? Surely Lucas licensing will look closely at anything before such a lame product hits the shelves again. Still, this is nothing.

The first thing that really got me pissed was when they decided they were going to make Kyle Katarn a Jedi Knight after undergoing some half ass training. On top of that, they went on to give him powers Luke didn't even have at the time like lightining and lifting force choke. Here I was thinking 'what makes this douche so special he can have a better array than Luke?' I mean even from the beginning I couldn't get past dude's name. Kyle Katarn? That's like someone from your school being named Larry Lion or Trevor Tiger... It was corny overkill to me.

Then Lucas licensing shifted the crap storm into hyperspeed as I don't remember which of the next two arcs came next. For sake of staying with the new Jedi order let's just say it was the Vong/NJO series. Ok, WHAT THE F*CK were they on when they decided to invent some of these techniques? I mean the 'Battle Meld' where everyone's thoughts were one? Getthefuggouttaherewiththatbullshit. And where Lomi Plo killed a Vong by using a Force laser-grid-beam-thingy technique. That was enough for me to stop reading the NJO series... and I've read EVERY novelized series. What's next? Force kamehameha? Force beams coming out of the eyes a la Cyclops style?

Finally, the piece de resistance was the *gasp* KOTOR games. I'm sure some of the younger peeps want to tp my house seeing that but hear me out. Granted, I didn't have a problem with the gameplay itself. In fact, I was a fan of both the games. But when you introduce another unpredented technique like it's nothing its on the road of ridiculousness. Force draining a whole planet? Are you kidding me? Some zombie sith who's cheating death yet Palpatine doesn't mention it when he's giving the Plagueis pitch to Ani? Strange you'd think that'd be a Sith prerequisite technique right up there with Force lightning. Yet no one else replecates it. Some of the stuff they do in the KOTOR games just borders on Superman/Silver Surfer type powers, and frankly it warps the fabric of the SW tangibility IMO.

I'm not hating on the authors of these books or developers of these games because they're just trying to make a living like everyone else. I'm just angered that the geniuses down at LL allow all the liberties to be taken. Because now, when I think of the PT Jedi I don't see the Golden Age of the Jedi(and rightly so they DID all die). I just see weak Jedi's who's role ended up being minor in comparison to what seem like ultra powerful Jedi of other EU stories.

It almost makes you wonder, was the PT/OT held at the most exciting time of the SW timeline? There were plenty of other times when more Jedi and Sith were around and arguably more was at stake...


/End rant. *whew*

I am just going to have to say something after all.

Your problem is with KotOR 2 man, which blew horribly. Pretend it never happened and you really have no problem with the original. Two sucked so dont drag its predecessor in two it. If you've got a problem with the Sith Lords then go ahead and rant, it was an awful sequel, but dont draw the first game in as well as the comic book series.

LOTF is by far the worst of them, it completely destroys alot of the good old days of star wars when characters werent so over hyped

Don't like it? Don't read it!

That's my motto.

The movies are still the same. Stick with them and you won't get your panties in a twist.

I aint gonna read LOTF, Stupid authors

Originally posted by SnakeEyes
Don't like it? Don't read it!

That's my motto.

The movies are still the same. Stick with them and you won't get your panties in a twist.

yup, totally agree with you there.

and there's no chance of them panties gettin wet with excitement either - the films are lame after a while, and only ESB remains good.

Originally posted by SnakeEyes
Don't like it? Don't read it!

That's my motto.




Thats bordering on an ignorant statement. How would one know beforehand if an book is good or not. One of the first phrases most people remember is "don't judge a book by its cover". I can't speak for everyone, but if you spend money on a book of a franchise you've been following for most of your life and begin reading it then why not finish it?

Would you go to your favorites sports teams game and leave in the middle of it just because your team started losing? If so than what does that say about ones character?

Take the Raiders for example, I like them and I'll still be a fan of them even though I can admit they were the worst NFL team this season... Anyways, most people would probably stay for most of the game then complain how their team sucked that night, much like I complained how the books I like to read had a bad spell.

Originally posted by Darth Scythe
Thats bordering on an ignorant statement. How would one know beforehand if an book is good or not. One of the first phrases most people remember is "don't judge a book by its cover". I can't speak for everyone, but if you spend money on a book of a franchise you've been following for most of your life and begin reading it then why not finish it?

Would you go to your favorites sports teams game and leave in the middle of it just because your team started losing? If so than what does that say about ones character?

Take the Raiders for example, I like them and I'll still be a fan of them even though I can admit they were the worst NFL team this season... Anyways, most people would probably stay for most of the game then complain how their team sucked that night, much like I complained how the books I like to read had a bad spell.

i think the point here is for those who hate the EU entirely: don't read any more then, as you'e never going to be satisfied. in that case it's a waste of money.

and for those who enjoy the bantam press line, but read the first NJO book and hated it - don't read them. same argument again: you're not going to be satisfied.

Originally posted by Kadesh
LOTF is by far the worst of them, it completely destroys alot of the good old days of star wars when characters werent so over hyped

um.... it's called progress. as i've pointed out on a number of occasions, there is only some much GL could do with his films, and only as much as technology of the time would allow. if GL decided not to go ahead with the PT, but someone wrote a book about some guy with a double-bladed lightsaber people would think it was pathetic and get pissed off because the films only ever had single bladed lightsabers.

Originally posted by Gideon
I prefer the old days. When Jedi were just tough.;Luke was pretty good, but not invincible; when Force push, pull, speed, jump, and mind trick were standard and basically it; when everyone feared Darth Vader; when Yoda and the Emperor were too powerful for lightsabers.

Those were the good days.
my thoughts exactly..

Originally posted by starwarsfreak34
um.... it's called progress. as i've pointed out on a number of occasions, there is only some much GL could do with his films, and only as much as technology of the time would allow. if GL decided not to go ahead with the PT, but someone wrote a book about some guy with a double-bladed lightsaber people would think it was pathetic and get pissed off because the films only ever had single bladed lightsabers. Just because it's technological, chronological, and character progression, doesn't make it better. The movies kept things to a respectable degree of realism within Star Wars, no matter how bad the acting was at some points.

When you start making characters with severe emotional issues who's troubled and exciting tales are told through what seems like over-blown narration, strange and increasingly more powerful Force powers which revolve around ever changing (and never-ending) theories of the Force, new enemies which become more and more bizarre as time goes on (Vong, Killiks), and the bringing back of enemies which should have died a 1000 times by now (Sith), you know the authors are straining for material to hold the attention of devoted fans who, despite their grievances, continue to buy and read the books in the hope for something new, fun, and yet hopefully original, fresh, and down to earth at the same time.

*takes a breath*

Originally posted by Tangible God
Just because it's technological, chronological, and character progression, doesn't make it better. The movies kept things to a respectable degree of realism within Star Wars, no matter how bad the acting was at some points.

When you start making characters with severe emotional issues who's troubled and exciting tales are told through what seems like over-blown narration, strange and increasingly more powerful Force powers which revolve around ever changing (and never-ending) theories of the Force, new enemies which become more and more bizarre as time goes on (Vong, Killiks), and the bringing back of enemies which should have died a 1000 times by now (Sith), you know the authors are straining for material to hold the attention of devoted fans who, despite their grievances, continue to buy and read the books in the hope for something new, fun, and yet hopefully original, fresh, and down to earth at the same time.

*takes a breath*

so what would you suggest for a new story - another superweapon, or perhaps another empire - uho, i think the latter one exists..... no Star Wars at all then? Personally, the only reason i read the books now IS for the Force theories and emotional issues. I also think that some people will NEVER be happy with whatever the EU brings, therefore maybe it is about time for it to end - though id rather it didnt

I agree with EVERYTHING you said. In fact, your last topic is on of the reasons i love kotor but i hate kotor II. I mean, and no matter what you say, Kotor makes no contradicton with the Force World. Even the "destroy droid" power actually exist. Master Arca for example, he also uses an attack that destroy droids components and this power only affect droids. So, the kotor's "destroy droid" can perfectly be cannot-
However, in kotor II we have, let's see:

- wounds in the force??? WTF?
- a sith lord that destroyed 1 planet with hundreds of jedis with 1 force attack??????
- a sith lord whose flesh was separated from bones and his body is completly crush and his power is not affected, in fact he seems stronger due to his damage, yet see what happen with anakin: with MUCH less damage he lost most of his potential. Incredibaly, sion seems to have no power decrease... Ok, we don't know him before but he said he was on Korriban when revan killed uthar, so sion was not that strong before suffer all that damage, so his power should GREATLY decrease, making him less then 1 average sith lord...
- kreia kills 3 jedi masters with 1 force drain... I am starting to think thart force drain is 10x times stronger then force lightning...

These are the main problems to me...

Very good post.

hmmm... i see no reason to argue here - finally .

what you said is perfectly true, and i agree. I hated KotOR II very much. the wound in the Force was exactly as you said - WTF!!!! and the worst part of it for me is that in almost every possible way, Kreia is like a CLONE of vergere (philosophy wise) and a big rip-off of her - and yet she wanted to DESTROY THE FORCE? (at least as i came to understand it....)

your point about Sion is also well made - i honestly can't see why KotOR II is liked by ANYONE with this kind of shit...

KoTor (both games) has to be excused to some lengths because it is, a video game, but all along, there has been a strain for new material. Now we are at a stage when force powers are described like some kind of video game special from an anime franchise, instead of creating an aura and mystique.

I'd be much more interested in the underworld aspects of the Star Wars universe, the ones firmly grounded in Star Wars reality; the Hutt gangsters, the Smugglers, the Bounty Hunters, the scum of the galaxy.

Originally posted by exanda kane
KoTor (both games) has to be excused to some lengths because it is, a video game, but all along, there has been a strain for new material. Now we are at a stage when force powers are described like some kind of video game special from an anime franchise, instead of creating an aura and mystique.

I'd be much more interested in the underworld aspects of the Star Wars universe, the ones firmly grounded in Star Wars reality; the Hutt gangsters, the Smugglers, the Bounty Hunters, the scum of the galaxy.


mmm.... now that would be interesting. Criminal organisations like Black Sun would make a nice change of direction - for books and games. Though they did try this with the expansion for Empire at War - and though i havnt got it, my mate says its not all that good.

Originally posted by starwarsfreak34
mmm.... now that would be interesting. Criminal organisations like Black Sun would make a nice change of direction - for books and games. Though they did try this with the expansion for Empire at War - and though i havnt got it, my mate says its not all that good.

Crime Lords duking it out with the Empire and the Alliance? It's a bit over the top, only people that I think ate it up were all the Mandalorian kiddies.

If they made a new film, I'd want a Film Noir thriller about a Smuggler on coruscant, and the Bounty Hunter that's after him, that'd make a nice change.

With the next generation of games they are bringing out I reckon they need to include one, just for me, little Exanda Kane. They've taken Spice away from me in SWG because that's "unwholesome" for the target audience, and little Exanda Kane wants something illegal to do in the Star Wars universe.

Originally posted by exanda kane
Crime Lords duking it out with the Empire and the Alliance? It's a bit over the top, only people that I think ate it up were all the Mandalorian kiddies.

If they made a new film, I'd want a Film Noir thriller about a Smuggler on coruscant, and the Bounty Hunter that's after him, that'd make a nice change.

With the next generation of games they are bringing out I reckon they need to include one, just for me, little Exanda Kane. They've taken Spice away from me in SWG because that's "unwholesome" for the target audience, and little Exanda Kane wants something illegal to do in the Star Wars universe.

lol - yes that sounds like fun. (and did they actually have spice in SWG?)

i like this - but i'm a bit of a perfectionist and so my ideal game would be:

1) First and foremost set during the NJO arc,
2) Allow the player to experience ALL sides of the war, from the Yuuzahn Vong, the Peace Brigade, to the Underworld, Jedi and the NR/GA (including common soldiers like in Battlefront)
3) Follow the general story plot, but allow the player to do certain things that would alter other aspects.
4) Have game play a mixture of 1st/3rd person combat, including in space battles, AND the strategic playing field of EaW.

Really, it would be a cross between KotOR, EaW, Battlefront, Jedi Outcast and Rogue Squardon, where you would get to play out things like the Myrkr strike mission as a party of 12 characters (the Jedi on the mission) who have their own strengths and weaknesses, and like KotOR you can have a team of 3/4 at one time - but each character would be controlled like in Jedi Outcast (none of that rubbishy 'queing for attacks' system). You would also get to participated in the great space battles, including the battle for coruscant (in the modes of 1st person pilot and whole battle aspect like in EaW), and then direct the course of the war in galactic conquest and EaW build and conquer type modes.

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...
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we can but dream, i suppose

I don't understand your problems with KotOR II. Nihilus can destroy a planet, so what, we're talking about THE FORCE. As Vader said it's much more powerful than some superweapon. And Sion can regenerate using THE FORCE so what. It's not like their powers are common as Force Lightning. They gained their powers at the Trayus Academy which afects everyone diferently.

Yes, but Vader had to explain it was more powerful precisely in the context that it CANNOT destroy a planet. It's more powerful in far less juvenile ways than that. 'The Force' is not a magic word to explain everything and do anything.

Well Nihilus doesn't really destroy planets what he does is more like a big Force Drain.

Originally posted by the_satan32
Well Nihilus doesn't really destroy planets what he does is more like a big Force Drain.

Now explain Force Drain?

If you can do it without referring to a computer game, computer game related character or in fact structuring an answer relating to any kind of methology stemming from a video game, you can have a cookie.

As much as The Force can be used heal the reverse is possible. It can be used to boaster the will be of others and can be used to drain their will to fight. Basicly it drains their life essence.

Originally posted by the_satan32
Well Nihilus doesn't really destroy planets what he does is more like a big Force Drain.

Same principle, and so in the same way cannot be done.

I do really enjoy threads like these, it goes to show the divisions in fan's opinions, those who are more interested in the characters and those that are more interested in the narratives.

I'd also like to add that I, Jedi and other Corran Horn related stories seem to throw things like telekinesis around far too easily.

^^^good point about I, Jedi. though, isnt the point that Corran CAN'T use telekinesis...

That's not my point however, more the fact that ot exists. It's not the force, it's just plain supernatural, like that thing the Kiffar have to read objects.

But isnt the Force meant to be some supernatural thing? Thats the only way it makes sense to me, because the question then becomes: Well, WTF is it? I mean, in the film it's described as a 'mystical energy field' - to me, mystical=magical=supernatural and all things that come between.

Yes, there's "the Force", but it doesn't have to be explained; it's "the Force", something mysterious and noble in a pretty gritty, grounded sci-fi world, a "wretched hive of scum and villainy" full of shady people just "trying to make there way in the galaxy".

Adding other supernatural things outside the bounds of "the Force" defeats and lowers the mystique of the Force and its significance in the Star Wars universe, where it really shouldn't.

Originally posted by exanda kane
Yes, there's "the Force", but it doesn't have to be explained; it's "the Force", something mysterious and noble in a pretty gritty, grounded sci-fi world, a "wretched hive of scum and villainy" full of shady people just "trying to make there way in the galaxy".

Adding other supernatural things outside the bounds of "the Force" defeats and lowers the mystique of the Force and its significance in the Star Wars universe, where it really shouldn't.

but who says some of the things the Jedi can do with the Force now are outside the bounds of the Force? Who puts these boundaries in place? Are you saying that all we saw of the Force in the films is all it can and should possibly amount to? As Ive said, there was a limit as to how much GL could do with the Force for the films, technological limits and time limits, in terms of plot.

By limiting the Force to what you see in the films, you're limiting your enjoyment of the stories in the SWEU. I enjoy the books no matter what, even if a lot of the ideas (KotOR II) are way OTT and a load of bull. Even if there is yet ANOTHER superweapon, i enjoy it because it's Star Wars - and to me, the possibilities are endless. Thats the beauty of a make-believe world

Lazy and unimaginative plots and plot devices do not cease to be lazy and unimaginative just because they are in a make-believe world.

Originally posted by starwarsfreak34
but who says some of the things the Jedi can do with the Force now are outside the bounds of the Force? Who puts these boundaries in place? Are you saying that all we saw of the Force in the films is all it can and should possibly amount to? As Ive said, there was a limit as to how much GL could do with the Force for the films, technological limits and time limits, in terms of plot.

By limiting the Force to what you see in the films, you're limiting your enjoyment of the stories in the SWEU. I enjoy the books no matter what, even if a lot of the ideas (KotOR II) are way OTT and a load of bull. Even if there is yet ANOTHER superweapon, i enjoy it because it's Star Wars - and to me, the possibilities are endless. Thats the beauty of a make-believe world

I don't enjoy it, even if it is Star Wars, difference of opinion.

You know what could be a good idea for a mini series? Featurettes on daily life on Coruscant. From the top of the Palace/Senate district to the depths of the shady underworld. One week could show the trials of a corrupt politcian, the next a slicer selling secrets or a slick sabaac player enjoying the life of the party. It could serve the same purpose that tales from the New Republic, or tales from Mos Eisley books served.

The unknown is always induced so much curiousity, and the city-planet of Coruscant holds plenty of it. Especially the old, lower depths of the planet. It always intrigued me whenever the books made mention of it, and I particularly noticed this when I saw Anakin freefalling during the chase of Zam Wessell. The camera angle was right above him showing the lit surface of the city below, and I thought "there could be so much potential with just Coruscant".

Originally posted by Darth Scythe
Thats bordering on an ignorant statement. How would one know beforehand if an book is good or not. One of the first phrases most people remember is "don't judge a book by its cover". I can't speak for everyone, but if you spend money on a book of a franchise you've been following for most of your life and begin reading it then why not finish it?

Would you go to your favorites sports teams game and leave in the middle of it just because your team started losing? If so than what does that say about ones character?

Alright, I think you misunderstood my statement.

Of course you're usually not going to know if a book is good or not before starting it. But, NJO, for example, has a notorious reputation for overpowering characters and so forth. Therefore, if a Star Wars fan were to consider reading the series, they should know what they're getting into and be prepared to not like certain aspects (or all) of it.

Also; nobody is forcing you to read these things that you hate. If you're in the middle of a book and you realize that you think it's pure shit, then by all means, just set it down and stop reading.

And your sports analogy doesn't really work.

Originally posted by SnakeEyes
Alright, I think you misunderstood my statement.

Of course you're usually not going to know if a book is good or not before starting it. But, NJO, for example, has a notorious reputation for overpowering characters and so forth. Therefore, if a Star Wars fan were to consider reading the series, they should know what they're getting into and be prepared to not like certain aspects (or all) of it.

Also; nobody is forcing you to read these things that you hate. If you're in the middle of a book and you realize that you think it's pure shit, then by all means, just set it down and stop reading.

And your sports analogy doesn't really work.

I don't 'set it down and stop reading', especially if I've paid for it. It doesn't work like that b. At least not for me, once I start something I must finish it.


Maybe you're not familiar with that trait in your personal character.

My sports analogy is full-proof. End of story.

The thing that made my blood boil about the NJO was 1) its crappy force stuff and 2)... HOW DARE THEY KILL CHEWBACCA

Don't overthink it. You'll break your brain.

@ Darth Scythe

relax man!

Star Wars is just a work of science fiction entertainment. I agree that what Lucas created is actually GOLD. The rest (EU materials) are not as appealing due to some ridiculous concepts introduced in them. Still most of the EU materials are enjoyable, especially the KOTOR game series.

If you like something - well and good. And if not then avoid.

And enjoy life!

One interesting thing to note is that the NJO (and after) interpretation of the Force isn't even consistent.

First, in the OT and PT, we have the Light Side and the Dark Side. No biggie there. One's good, the other's evil. Jedi use the Light, Sith use the Dark, end of story.

But then this former Jedi Vergere is like "hey the dark side and light side are not real", and so the NJO series goes with this whole "It's all in how you use it" thing. Okay. It's an unnecessary change, but it's all right. Right?

Wrong. They change their minds *yet again* -- some Jedi apparently aren't sure on that, and Jacen Solo, who by now had been hopelessly brainwashed by Vergere's philosophy, is starting up with this "Dark Side" and "Sith" spiel.

Honestly...

If you're going to change how the Force works, at least *be consistent* about it. It's evident as it goes on that both the characters and the writers have no clue just how the Force works anymore, and that they've given up on trying to make sense out of it.