Cap is superhuman, its official!!!!!

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Alfheim

Kang16
Wow. I guess he has improved abilities over Batman then.

Nice findings I guess.

What comic is that from ?

Alfheim
Im not sure, I was looking through the cap capability thread on herochat. Im seriously thinking of compiling as much info on Cap and making a bio for him.

Kang16
Sounds good. If you do it I will look forward to it.

Scoobless
It's from Cable & Deadpool (#25 I think)

But at that point Cable had lost all his mutant powers

DigiMark007
Is this about Cap or Cable??

And a hero complimenting another hardly makes it truth. Hell, Superman has said that basically the entire JLA could beat him at one point or another, and we all know how true that is. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Cap has enhanced reflexes, his body doesn't produce toxins so his stamina is incredible, some sick fighting skills, and can lift about half a ton, give or take.

ankur29

Kang16
Hey they all could. Bats at least. stick out tongue

Soljer
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Is this about Cap or Cable??

And a hero complimenting another hardly makes it truth. Hell, Superman has said that basically the entire JLA could beat him at one point or another, and we all know how true that is. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Cap has enhanced reflexes, his body doesn't produce toxins so his stamina is incredible, some sick fighting skills, and can lift about half a ton, give or take.

Fair enough, but how often has Superman straight up said "You're stronger than I am?"

How many times has he told someone that wasn't ACTUALLY faster than him "You're faster than me?"

Saying "You're good," or "You could beat me," is very different from straight up saying "You're stronger/faster/smarter/whatever-er than I am."

V for Valentine
Or maybe because Cable is two years older than him and not in his prime? Whereas Cap is constantly at the peak of human ability? confused

Soljer
Oh, and where was this posted in the capability thread?

http://herochat.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=100779&start=90

I don't see it.

DigiMark007
Originally posted by Soljer
Fair enough, but how often has Superman straight up said "You're stronger than I am?"

How many times has he told someone that wasn't ACTUALLY faster than him "You're faster than me?"

Saying "You're good," or "You could beat me," is very different from straight up saying "You're stronger/faster/smarter/whatever-er than I am."

Fair enough, but Cable's powered down right now so I really have no idea if that's even an impressive thing for him to be saying to Cap since I don't know his power level.

Scoobless
Purely physically speaking, Cap is superior to Cable in speed, strength (apart from the cyborg parts) and stamina

When Cable has TK he can use that to increase his stats in the same way other TK users do

Alfheim
Originally posted by Scoobless
It's from Cable & Deadpool (#25 I think)

But at that point Cable had lost all his mutant powers

His strength and durability I think come from him being a cyborg I dont know about his reflexes, that could be cybernetic too.



Originally posted by DigiMark007
Is this about Cap or Cable??

And a hero complimenting another hardly makes it truth. Hell, Superman has said that basically the entire JLA could beat him at one point or another, and we all know how true that is. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Batman can beat supes. I think some people have said that Hal Jordan can beat supes and also The Flash maybe, I dont read DC though.

Furthermore heroes say that an opponent can give them trouble or that this person scares them, but Cable clearly said in black and white that he is stronger and faster and 3 times his endurance. Cable was not talking about wether Cap could beat him he was specifically and unambigously talking about Cap's stats.

For example when Spiderman fought Wolverine he said he had never fought anyone like him before. Spiderman did not say that Wolverine was faster, this situation with Cable and Cap is different.

Originally posted by DigiMark007


Cap has enhanced reflexes, his body doesn't produce toxins so his stamina is incredible, some sick fighting skills, and can lift about half a ton, give or take.

That is incorrect he has been seen to lift at least 1100 lbs with ease. He can defintely lift a ton. His absolute limit is probably 2

Originally posted by Soljer
Oh, and where was this posted in the capability thread?

http://herochat.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=100779&start=90

I don't see it.

I think it was page 2 somewhere.

Originally posted by Scoobless
It's from Cable & Deadpool (#25 I think)

But at that point Cable had lost all his mutant powers

Oh yeah Cable had not lost his mutant powers later on you see him using telekinesis. When you say at that point, do you mean specfically that point or the whole fight?

Originally posted by Scoobless
Purely physically speaking, Cap is superior to Cable in speed, strength (apart from the cyborg parts) and stamina


This is also incorrect. Cable said that Cap was stronger than him. Cable was a cyborg when he said it.

Alfheim
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Fair enough, but Cable's powered down right now so I really have no idea if that's even an impressive thing for him to be saying to Cap since I don't know his power level.

He wasn't powered down, later on you see him levitating. Sorry double post.

Soleran
Originally posted by Alfheim
He wasn't powered down, later on you see him levitating. Sorry double post.


Um yes he is powered down, he has machines that allow him to mimic certain abilities at this point but it isn't like it was before.

capt it up
you do realize that was cable using no powers. which means cable who was using no powers said all those thing which would be true since capt is peakhuman

Scoobless
Originally posted by Alfheim
Oh yeah Cable had not lost his mutant powers later on you see him using telekinesis. When you say at that point, do you mean specfically that point or the whole fight?

No, I meant the whole comic... and every comic since then, Cable's powers are gone, he is only simulating them at the moment using a gravimetric field generator and some new tech device that allows him to mentally access the world wide info-net

This is all explained in that issue.... did you read it?

no expression

DigiMark007
Originally posted by Alfheim
That is incorrect he has been seen to lift at least 1100 lbs with ease. He can defintely lift a ton. His absolute limit is probably 2
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Cap has enhanced reflexes, his body doesn't produce toxins so his stamina is incredible, some sick fighting skills, and can lift about half a ton, give or take.

Key words "give or take". I've been around long enough to know that it depends on the writer and the level of PIS that's required for the situation. So please don't call me to task about Cap being able to lift 1-2 tons. I'm well aware...

P.S. 1 Ton = 2000 lbs. Your reference to 1100 lbs immediately followed by assertion of 2 tons had me confused....you might be doing your math wrong. Half a ton = 1000 lbs.

roll eyes (sarcastic)

Anyway, my whole point has been that the one scan posted shouldn't be used as an excuse to think Cap is any more powerful than we already assumed. The minutia of my point has been deconstructed, though, to the point where that's been lost.

And beyond that, saying that something is "incorrect" without leaving wiggle room denies the very essence of the varying levels of comic characters depending on the issue and feat. The handbook has Cap at about 1000lbs, so I'm not in the wrong. I realzie that a feat or two may speak otherwise, but I'm talking about norms rather than extremes.

Originally posted by Soleran
Um yes he is powered down, he has machines that allow him to mimic certain abilities at this point but it isn't like it was before.

Gracias. It's hard enough to keep track of the power levels of characters I do care about, let alone every mutie that decides it's time to retcon his/her entire history.

AcousticDoc
Cap has always been superhuman. The guy runs a mile in 60 seconds - 60 mph for a human! The fastest peak humans run miles in are about 4 minutes and the max speed a peak human can reach is 28 mph (an only for ~ a second). Cap is way beyond human!

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by Soljer
Fair enough, but how often has Superman straight up said "You're stronger than I am?"

How many times has he told someone that wasn't ACTUALLY faster than him "You're faster than me?"

Saying "You're good," or "You could beat me," is very different from straight up saying "You're stronger/faster/smarter/whatever-er than I am." He's stated Wonder Woman is as strong as him. And she's not. Being a woman and all.

ankur29
Originally posted by AcousticDoc
Cap has always been superhuman. The guy runs a mile in 60 seconds - 60 mph for a human! The fastest peak humans run miles in are about 4 minutes and the max speed a peak human can reach is 28 mph (an only for ~ a second). Cap is way beyond human!

i was told he was augmented to superhuman levels at that time and or it was hyperbole by one of the marvel handbook writer's i had questioned about cap's speed

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by ankur29
the same is said for wolverine , however i doubt cap will be able to lift well over 800lbs with his strength

Cap was benching 800lbs during the brief time his SSS wore off...

Soljer
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Cap was benching 800lbs during the brief time his SSS wore off...

yes

While the Serum wore OFF.

Rewmac
This scan cool...Next page Cap gets owned big grin

SpunkySmurph
Originally posted by Scoobless
Purely physically speaking, Cap is superior to Cable in speed, strength (apart from the cyborg parts) and stamina

When Cable has TK he can use that to increase his stats in the same way other TK users do

srankmissingnin
Originally posted by Soljer
yes

While the Serum wore OFF.

yes

Exactly

Innerhype
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
yes

Exactly


Elaborate...

Disappear
claiming the fastest sprinter can only hit 28 doesn't mean the pinnacle of human capability is 28 miles per hour. there are differences and nuances that are being overlooked.

captain america is THE peak human. it's his entire purpose. it's his mystique. his body is the physical embodiment of his mindset.

cable's also prone to decorative language. he referred to himself as the world's most powerful telepath on more than one occasion, remember. one character's thought bubbles do not constitute a retcon for another character.

Alfheim
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Key words "give or take". I've been around long enough to know that it depends on the writer and the level of PIS that's required for the situation. So please don't call me to task about Cap being able to lift 1-2 tons. I'm well aware...

Yeah ok, could you not take it so personal.

Originally posted by DigiMark007

P.S. 1 Ton = 2000 lbs. Your reference to 1100 lbs immediately followed by assertion of 2 tons had me confused....you might be doing your math wrong. Half a ton = 1000 lbs.

Mate, you didn't read my post properly I said he was seen to benchpress at least 1100 lbs. I put at least in bold for you to see. If he can benchpress 1100lbs with ease he should be able to lift a ton and his absolute maximum could be two tons.


Originally posted by DigiMark007

Anyway, my whole point has been that the one scan posted shouldn't be used as an excuse to think Cap is any more powerful than we already assumed.

Well actually its not just that scan, the bulk of his showings show that Cap could lift 2 tons

Originally posted by DigiMark007

The minutia of my point has been deconstructed, though, to the point where that's been lost.

I dont even understand what you said there, could you say this in simpler terms.

Originally posted by DigiMark007

And beyond that, saying that something is "incorrect" without leaving wiggle room denies the very essence of the varying levels of comic characters depending on the issue and feat. The handbook has Cap at about 1000lbs, so I'm not in the wrong. I realzie that a feat or two may speak otherwise, but I'm talking about norms rather than extremes.
.

Im sure you know that using handbooks to define a characters capabilities is not enough evidence on their own, you also need to look at their showings. As you know the old Powerman is supposezd to be able to lift 3 tons he consistently shown to be able to lift more than this, therefore the handbook is rejected. Namor is supposed to be able to lift 40 tons out of water and 85 tons in water, his showings reject this, therefore again the handbook is rejected.

I know their are extreme examples but their are loads of Cap showings that indicate that he can lift more than 1000Lbs and his maximum is 1 to 2 tons. Marvel need to sort it out. If you also look at evidence the lowest level of superhuman strength seems to be 3 tons, since Cap is peak human his strength could be anywhere outside of 3 tons.


Originally posted by Scoobless
No, I meant the whole comic... and every comic since then, Cable's powers are gone, he is only simulating them at the moment using a gravimetric field generator and some new tech device that allows him to mentally access the world wide info-netno expression

Ok, but hes still a cyborg. By the way his bio says he has telekinetic powers but it doesnt say anything about him using it to increase his physical stats.

Originally posted by Scoobless

This is all explained in that issue.... did you read it?

no expression

No I did not. Im not going to buy a comic so I can have a debate here, for now I will stick to scans, wiki and marvel.com, and when I have time I will buy the issue.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
He's stated Wonder Woman is as strong as him. And she's not. Being a woman and all.

Im sorry but that sounds like you're saying Wonder Woman is weaker than Superman because shes a woman?confused I dont read DC, but surely in a world full of superhumans being a women isn't neccesarily going to make you weaker.

marvelprince
Nice showings, but Cable is depowered so his stats are probably only equivilant to a regular human who engages in intensive regular exercise, in which case Cap is his superior.

And his watching bullets in slow mo etc is attributed to his cybernetic parts

Alfheim
Originally posted by marvelprince
Nice showings, but Cable is depowered so his stats are probably only equivilant to a regular human who engages in intensive regular exercise, in which case Cap is his superior.

How can they be when hes a cyborg? He will have at least enhanced stats.

Originally posted by marvelprince

And his watching bullets in slow mo etc is attributed to his cybernetic parts

Exactly, so according to Cable Cap can do this as well.

Priest
i think its stupid if captain america is upgraded to superhuman, he's already cool as it is..

Alfheim
Originally posted by Priest
i think its stupid if captain america is upgraded to superhuman, he's already cool as it is..

Well to tell the truth he has always been "superhuman".

Priest
Originally posted by Alfheim
Well to tell the truth he has always been "superhuman".
Cap being "superhuman" is not his character...Him being peek human and doing the things he does, hanging with the other super people is wat makes him great.

Juntai
Originally posted by ankur29
i was told he was augmented to superhuman levels at that time and or it was hyperbole by one of the marvel handbook writer's i had questioned about cap's speed There was a time when he was moved into the super-category, having a good amount of superstrength and stuff. It was later taken away from him, and he moved back to having his old stats back.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Priest
Cap being "superhuman" is not his character...Him being peek human and doing the things he does, hanging with the other super people is wat makes him great.

Well yyyyyyeah I know. When I say hes "superhuman" im just getting tired of people saying he has a jobber aura. What im trying to elaborate on is what is peak human. Im trying to prove that peak human is low level superhuman.

Juntai
Originally posted by Alfheim
Well yyyyyyeah I know. When I say hes "superhuman" im just getting tired of people saying he has a jobber aura. What im trying to elaborate on is what is peak human. Im trying to prove that peak human is low level superhuman. Fair enough, most comic characters are far beyond human. When was the last time you saw someone take down a helicopter with a throwing knife?

Disappear
the lowest levels of superhuman strength start around 1000 pounds, according to references made to both quicksilver and toad. peak human strength is approximately 800 lbs. and it's a very rare thing for weights to actually be mentioned on-panel, such as "there's captain america lifting 1100 pounds." some people, when researching respect threads, look up real-life equivalents to what they see, but that doesn't mean that that is the intended weight limit by the writer or artist.

besides ultimate cap and the aforementioned period in which cap had superhuman strength, i don't think i've ever seen him lifting decidedly superhuman amounts of weight. care to prove your case, instead of just saying it again and again?

marvelprince
Originally posted by Alfheim
How can they be when hes a cyborg? He will have at least enhanced stats.

His cybernetic parts don't give him that much of of a physical edge. In the past he was super strong with them but now the only thing they are is shiny. And durable

Originally posted by Alfheim
Exactly, so according to Cable Cap can do this as well.

sigh. No. Your reading too much into this. Cable says Cap is stronger, faster and triple his endurance. Of course Cap is cause Cable stats are that of a human. Cable seeing things in slow mo is cause of his tech eye, not cause of any training or level of superhuman appearances. To infer that Cap can do the same when Cable explicitly mentioned the areas where Cap is superior is wishful thinking

ankur29
Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah ok, could you not take it so personal.



Mate, you didn't read my post properly I said he was seen to benchpress at least 1100 lbs. I put at least in bold for you to see. If he can benchpress 1100lbs with ease he should be able to lift a ton and his absolute maximum could be two tons.




Well actually its not just that scan, the bulk of his showings show that Cap could lift 2 tons



I dont even understand what you said there, could you say this in simpler terms.



Im sure you know that using handbooks to define a characters capabilities is not enough evidence on their own, you also need to look at their showings. As you know the old Powerman is supposezd to be able to lift 3 tons he consistently shown to be able to lift more than this, therefore the handbook is rejected. Namor is supposed to be able to lift 40 tons out of water and 85 tons in water, his showings reject this, therefore again the handbook is rejected.

I know their are extreme examples but their are loads of Cap showings that indicate that he can lift more than 1000Lbs and his maximum is 1 to 2 tons. Marvel need to sort it out. If you also look at evidence the lowest level of superhuman strength seems to be 3 tons, since Cap is peak human his strength could be anywhere outside of 3 tons.




Ok, but hes still a cyborg. By the way his bio says he has telekinetic powers but it doesnt say anything about him using it to increase his physical stats.



No I did not. Im not going to buy a comic so I can have a debate here, for now I will stick to scans, wiki and marvel.com, and when I have time I will buy the issue.



Im sorry but that sounds like you're saying Wonder Woman is weaker than Superman because shes a woman?confused I dont read DC, but surely in a world full of superhumans being a women isn't neccesarily going to make you weaker.

where are you getting those stats from , where does it say 1 ton , 2 ton ,3 ton

he is peak, he can lift the maximum a human body is capable of lifting and lowerlevel superhuman is from 800lbs - 2 tons

cap is not 2 tons heck he isn't even 1 ton , he can lift under a ton 1100lbs is almost half a metric ton , he cannot lift four times that much (2 tons) he may be aroung 1500lbs with maximum effort 1 ton's or 2 is great exagerartion

btw what is said in 1 comic does not mean anything , spidey says morlun hit's harder than hulk and thor .....yeah right
he says wolverine is faster or as fast him .....thast wot i thought
he said himself he is 40 times faster/agile(reflexes) than an average human but according to the handbook of 2005 he is 15 times more faster agile (greater reflexes)

Brutacus
Cap never really should get super strenght or super speed or whatever.
He's the most perfect Human around, and by human I mean no real super powers.
He's a guy that shows that without super powers you can still be one of the best superhero's around.

Alfheim
I spent ages typing out this message and its been deleted!!!!!cursing

Ok im just going to have to own you guys tomorrow

cursing cursing censored

Alfheim
Originally posted by Disappear
the lowest levels of superhuman strength start around 1000 pounds, according to references made to both quicksilver and toad. peak human strength is approximately 800 lbs.

Are you refering to the Marvel handbooks? If you are you cannot refer to them without backing them up with other information. Handbooks can often be incorrect, for example stating that Powerman can lift 3 tons when he is clearly stronger than that.


Originally posted by Disappear

and it's a very rare thing for weights to actually be mentioned on-panel, such as "there's captain america lifting 1100 pounds." some people, when researching respect threads, look up real-life equivalents to what they see, but that doesn't mean that that is the intended weight limit by the writer or artist.

besides ultimate cap and the aforementioned period in which cap had superhuman strength, i don't think i've ever seen him lifting decidedly superhuman amounts of weight. care to prove your case, instead of just saying it again and again?


Well this is what they have to say in Marvel.com:

<He is depicted bench pressing 1100 lb (Cap) while D-Man is pressing 8900 which comes out like 4 tons and 900lbs while he said himself (D-Man) he could press 15 tons in a workout while carrying on a conversation in Captain America vol. 1 #402 (but not in the #402 issue).>

To be certain we need to get the scan it used to be on wiki, but its there no longer.

Futhermore characters do not have to lift to show their strength, their are other strength feats that show that Cap could lift 1 to 2 tons:

Ripping a steel door off a tractor.
Bending prison bars with ease, this feat is not too far off from when Sabretooth bended some barbells.
Buckling thick steel doors when he is injured in one arm
Pulling a packed supply truck through the desert that has one broken wheel.

Cap has consistently shown throught his career to be able to do feats like this.



Originally posted by marvelprince
His cybernetic parts don't give him that much of of a physical edge. In the past he was super strong with them but now the only thing they are is shiny. And durable

That doesn't make any sense. Without Cybernetic parts Cable will have the strength of a normal human being that takes regular intensive exrecise. He may be powered down but he still has cybernetic enhancements his strength level will be at least enhanced levels;

Originally posted by marvelprince

sigh. No. Your reading too much into this. Cable says Cap is stronger, faster and triple his endurance. Of course Cap is cause Cable stats are that of a human.

A strong human being with cybernetic enhancements is not going to have normal stats.


Originally posted by marvelprince

Cable seeing things in slow mo is cause of his tech eye,

Actually you're right about that , but this is what Marvel.com has to say about Cable's reflexes:

<His entire CNS (Central Nervous System) has been augmented by chemical changes down to the atomic level and by biocomputer enhancement, rendering his reaction time far above what is possible for a Human being. In spite of his great size and impressive build, Cable is literally fast enough to evade high-powered bullets in-flight (after they have been fired),>

Theres more......

<This great speed is also visible in superhuman levels of dexterity and agility, >


Originally posted by marvelprince

not cause of any training or level of superhuman appearances. To infer that Cap can do the same when Cable explicitly mentioned the areas where Cap is superior is wishful thinking

Well Cable's official bio says that Cable has superhuman reflexes which are not connected to TK and Cable said that Cap is faster then him. Cap has at least ehanced reflexes.



Originally posted by ankur29
where are you getting those stats from , where does it say 1 ton , 2 ton ,3 ton

he is peak, he can lift the maximum a human body is capable of lifting and lowerlevel superhuman is from 800lbs - 2 tons

cap is not 2 tons heck he isn't even 1 ton , he can lift under a ton 1100lbs is almost half a metric ton , he cannot lift four times that much (2 tons) he may be aroung 1500lbs with maximum effort 1 ton's or 2 is great exagerartion

I have already explained this point.

Originally posted by ankur29

btw what is said in 1 comic does not mean anything , spidey says morlun hit's harder than hulk and thor .....yeah right

Thats because Morlun was draining Spiderman's energy.

Originally posted by ankur29

he says wolverine is faster or as fast him .....thast wot i thought
he said himself he is 40 times faster/agile(reflexes)

Show me were he said that.

Originally posted by ankur29

he said himself he is 40 times faster/agile(reflexes)
than an average human but according to the handbook of 2005 he is 15 times more faster agile (greater reflexes)

Handbooks are consistently wrong, thats why I and you need to back them up with further evidence. What Cable says is just another bit of evidence that proves that Cap has enhanced stats I can bring even more proof to back it up.

Alfheim
*bump*

King KAM
Duh... Cap pwns, everyone else sucks, Viva la revolution

Alfheim
Originally posted by King KAM
Duh... Cap pwns, everyone else sucks, Viva la revolution

Yeah thanx for that.....

Alfheim
Originally posted by Disappear
the lowest levels of superhuman strength start around 1000 pounds, according to references made to both quicksilver and toad. peak human strength is approximately 800 lbs. and it's a very rare thing for weights to actually be mentioned on-panel, such as "there's captain america lifting 1100 pounds." some people, when researching respect threads, look up real-life equivalents to what they see, but that doesn't mean that that is the intended weight limit by the writer or artist.

besides ultimate cap and the aforementioned period in which cap had superhuman strength, i don't think i've ever seen him lifting decidedly superhuman amounts of weight. care to prove your case, instead of just saying it again and again?

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/7048/captainamericav1402ocd0fr6.jpg

There you go. Theres Cap lifting 1100lbs with ease. If he can do that easily he probably can lift a ton.

Daredevil1
Wrong the writer who wrote which is Ed Brubaker posts at the Alvaro Cap boards even stated thats what Cap can do. The only augmentation Cap had was the Super-Soilder-Serum.

jasonk3
Originally posted by Alfheim
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/7048/captainamericav1402ocd0fr6.jpg

There you go. Theres Cap lifting 1100lbs with ease. If he can do that easily he probably can lift a ton.

Dude i think he can lift more, cuz i thinks its 1100 lbs each barbell plate making it 2200 all together, plus the weight of the bar is probably another 100lbs or more too support such weight.

Alfheim
Originally posted by jasonk3
Dude i think he can lift more, cuz i thinks its 1100 lbs each barbell plate making it 2200 all together, plus the weight of the bar is probably another 100lbs or more too support such weight.

Mate are you sure????? Can you confirm this at all???

Daredevil1
There's no way to confirm that.

But feats like supporting part of a Skyscrapper, support that he can go above that.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Daredevil1
There's no way to confirm that.

But feats like supporting part of a Skyscrapper, support that he can go above that.

Well it does kinda make sense that both weights were 1100Lbs.

Soljer
Originally posted by Alfheim
Well it does kinda make sense that both weights were 1100Lbs.

It's arguable, since the dials were electronic, whether the electronic readout was for each weight, or for the entire bar.

Either way.

Alfheim
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/742/ca17016np5.jpg

Is this Cap saying he can see bullets ? confused

Damn that herochat respect thread kicks ***

StarsNeverFall7
Cap at his highest showing is no where near Cable level. So why are we comparing the two?

Alfheim
Because of what Cable said, also Cable was depowered at the time. Im aware that Cable can augument himself, but without augmentation Cap could be better than Cable. Anyway thats what I undertsand.

StarsNeverFall7
Cable was depowered at that point. Like stated before to the point of just being a regular human that excerises immensly. When they "fixed" his TO virus he lost alot of the benefits that came with it. Granted it could kill him and took 27% of his telekentics to control, it had its benefits. Once he lost that he lost alot of his power, and basically was human at that point, and we all know Cap is above human.

In the current situation, yes, Cap was likely above a serverly weakened Cable. I think Cap is an amazing character, his blind hero stupidity is some times astounding, but a great hero none the less. He just isn't Cables level without a decently large powerup.

sapphiremouse
the digital counter on the bench press bar is total weight. big grin

Alfheim
Originally posted by StarsNeverFall7
Once he lost that he lost alot of his power, and basically was human at that point, and we all know Cap is above human.



Yes he was severaly depowered but he is still a cyborg, which means that Cable would have enhanced stats.


Originally posted by sapphiremouse
the digital counter on the bench press bar is total weight. big grin

Ok so if somebody can lift 1100lbs without breaking a sweat and not breathing hard how much did you think the maximum is?. 1 ton is not unlikely.

StarsNeverFall7
Alfheim, you're missing what I'm saying. The cyborg parts Cable has is a virus, it eventually got "fixed" and lost its power along with him. He was completely powered down to human level. He didn't have the cyborg enhancement anymore, TK, his TP, etc. Just human..all of him, even the TO virus parts.

Alfheim
Originally posted by StarsNeverFall7
Alfheim, you're missing what I'm saying. The cyborg parts Cable has is a virus, it eventually got "fixed" and lost its power along with him. He was completely powered down to human level. He didn't have the cyborg enhancement anymore, TK, his TP, etc. Just human..all of him, even the TO virus parts.

You didnt tell me that before. Oh TO is supposed to mean Techno Organic?. Well heres a problem, his bio states as you said that when the TO virus got fixed it severely depleted his powers but it still says this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_(comics)#Powers_and_abilities

Currently, after his lobotomy and replacement of the T-O-infected tissue with benign techno-organic tissue.

Hes still a Cyborg. Therefore he still probably has superhuman strength.

StarsNeverFall7
He gets it replaced, and gets depowered to where he is at in those scans, then I'm not 100% sure but I believe after that some other things happen and he reaches that "godlike" cable phase. Im not too sure on that one thought im far from a cable expert.

On a side note, is the 1100lbs Caps highest strength feat? Or is there something higher?

Alfheim
Originally posted by StarsNeverFall7
He gets it replaced, and gets depowered to where he is at in those scans,

Meh....well we dont actually know for certain wether he was depowered there. I mean we dont knwo wether he was due for a replacement.

Originally posted by StarsNeverFall7

On a side note, is the 1100lbs Caps highest strength feat? Or is there something higher?

There are loads but not actually him lifting weights but with him doing stuff like pulling a steel door off a tractor and using it as a shield. His strength really should be 1 ton.

StarsNeverFall7
Well he had to eventually get the TO fixed, the virus was killing him. He just got the luck of being able to fight it off before being fully taken over. Sadly when he got it fixed/replaced his power went to crap for a while.

Well given if he is benching 1100lbs, Id suppose with full effort a ton isn't too far off. Doesn't that still leave him in enhanced human though? I thought it went from 800-2tons, I could be wrong though.

Daredevil1
Actually it wasn't even a steel-door but pure steel itself, which makes the feat much....much more impressive. Since doors have hinges and other little metals or screws holding it to the other portion that could have been ripped off.

King KAM
Cap is superhuman before cable ever said this.

cap weighs 240 pounds but easily benches 1100 pounds, if any of you lift weights you know that this is superhuman.

Cap runs over 60mph, meaning he runs over 3times faster than the fastest human ever, but thats not even cap sprinting, he ran this for 5 miles.

Cap sees bullets.....

Soujaboy
Originally posted by King KAM
Cap is superhuman before cable ever said this.

cap weighs 240 pounds but easily benches 1100 pounds, if any of you lift weights you know that this is superhuman.

Cap runs over 60mph, meaning he runs over 3times faster than the fastest human ever, but thats not even cap sprinting, he ran this for 5 miles.

Cap sees bullets.....

Cap saw the light when he made the mistake of attacking Thor. shifty

Alfheim
Originally posted by King KAM

cap weighs 240 pounds but easily benches 1100 pounds, if any of you lift weights you know that this is superhuman.



Apparently Cmaster was telling me some guy in real life lifted over a 1000lbs. I doubt this guy could do acrobatics afterwards though. laughing out loud

Scoobless
Originally posted by King KAM
Cap runs over 60mph, meaning he runs over 3times faster than the fastest human ever, but thats not even cap sprinting, he ran this for 5 miles.

It's just over twice as fast. It was him sprinting .... for 5 miles (which he can do as his body doesn't build up lactic acid like normal people)

Soljer
Originally posted by Alfheim
Apparently Cmaster was telling me some guy in real life lifted over a 1000lbs. I doubt this guy could do acrobatics afterwards though. laughing out loud

Yup. Scott Mendelson - 1008 pounds. For one rep. And he was wearing a bench shirt, and sure as **** couldn't get up and do any acrobatics afterwards.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Soljer
Yup. Scott Mendelson - 1008 pounds. For one rep. And he was wearing a bench shirt, and sure as **** couldn't get up and do any acrobatics afterwards.

Yeah im debating with some guy on another forum. He was trying to tell me that the reason why Cap wasnt tired was because he was showing off. He also told me that he has lifted his max before and was able to do sit ups straight afterwards. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Is this what your talking about? Cap lifts 1100lbs with ease but they wanna compare what Cap can do to this.

http://www.pumpedvideo.com/2006/10/19/scott-mendelson-the-man-who-beat-gene-rychlak/

Alfheim
If you can curl 500lbs after doing Gymnastics apporoxiamtely how much do you think you could banchpress?

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/1125/curl500tu1.jpg

WrathfulDwarf
This isn't exactly big news. We've already knew Capt was Juiced since day one. He's practically the Barry Bonds of Superheros:

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/2261/426pxcatransformationct1.png

Alfheim
Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
This isn't exactly big news. We've already knew Capt was Juiced since day one. He's practically the Barry Bonds of Superheros:

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/2261/426pxcatransformationct1.png

Well from day one he was blantantly superhuman. Now people say hes peak human but if he can curl 500lbs then thats above peak human. Thats why im asking if you can curl 500lbs what can you bench. Because one of the worlds strongest men can only bench 600lbs!

Disappear
captain america was meant to be the pinnacle of human excellence since day one. the definitions were looser when comics were getting their start, and it wasn't until rather recently that feats and strength levels began adhering to more strict rules. case closed.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Disappear
captain america was meant to be the pinnacle of human excellence since day one. the definitions were looser when comics were getting their start, and it wasn't until rather recently that feats and strength levels began adhering to more strict rules. case closed.

Im pretty sure its stated in numerous place that Cap as wupposed to be superhuman at one stage.

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Captain_America_(Steve_Rogers)

He experienced a time when he was augmented to superhuman levels,

Soljer
The world record for Bicep curls is somewhere around four hundred pounds.

Now, he didn't do that right after a VERY intense gymnastics work out (do you see the position he's holding? Insanely difficult), but still.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Soljer
The world record for Bicep curls is somewhere around four hundred pounds.



How many reps? Do you know how much the guy could bench?

Soljer
Originally posted by Alfheim
How many reps? Do you know how much the guy could bench?

I would assume the world record would probably be for a single repetition, though it didn't specify. And no clue on who the guy even IS, much less how much he could bench.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Soljer
I would assume the world record would probably be for a single repetition, though it didn't specify. And no clue on who the guy even IS, much less how much he could bench.

In that case that is still much lower than Cap. We would assume that Cap would be doing something like 10 reps with 500lbs. Obvously hes not going to pick up 500lbs and do one rep thats not how you workout.

Soljer
Very true. If he is doing a maintenance work out, or even a building work out, he would likely do more than a single repetition and more than a single set.

But who knows? We only see him do two reps on panel.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Soljer

But who knows? We only see him do two reps on panel.

Yeah but thats because its a comicbook, comics dont always show all the action. We dont know for certain but the most likely conclusion is that he did something like 10 because thats what most people do and being Captain America he obvoulsy isnt going to do 2 reps because that would not be a proper workout. So we go by the most likely conclusion.

Soljer
Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah but thats because its a comicbook, comics dont always show all the action. We dont know for certain but the most likely conclusion is that he did something like 10 because thats what most people do and being Captain America he obvoulsy isnt going to do 2 reps because that would not be a proper workout. So we go by the most likely conclusion.

Reading comprehension much?

"Very true. If he is doing a maintenance work out, or even a building work out, he would likely do more than a single repetition and more than a single set. "

However, SINCE it's a comic book (no shit), we have no idea whether Cap managed six reps, or twenty four.

Ten may or may not be the most logical conclusion, but it is still just a supposition with little to no actual support.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Soljer
Reading comprehension much?

"Very true. If he is doing a maintenance work out, or even a building work out, he would likely do more than a single repetition and more than a single set. "

However, SINCE it's a comic book (no shit), we have no idea whether Cap managed six reps, or twenty four.

Ten may or may not be the most logical conclusion, but it is still just a supposition with little to no actual support.

Good greif. Fine anything you say.

Disappear
it's true he was superhuman at times. there were also times when he was fully powerless. even once when he used an exo-skeleton designed by stark. that doesn't change the fact that his normal strength and other attributes, as was part of his initial and continuing concept, were peak human. that's what the super soldier serum did.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Disappear
that doesn't change the fact that his normal strength and other attributes, as was part of his initial and continuing concept, were peak human. that's what the super soldier serum did.

Wrong.


Caps is above peak human. These are quotes from Ed Brubaker. Thanks go to Daredevil1 for finding them.

http://www.comicboards.com/camb/view.php?rpl=060330214926

"Just physical exertion. While I don't think of Cap as 'super' like Spider-man or Superman, he's clearly not Batman with a shield. He's not just like a guy who works out all the time and is trained. He's been enhanced, and I wanted to show that a bit."

"See, I never understand why everyone gets so worked up about this stuff. Cap was given the Super-Soldier Serum. The first word there is SUPER. He's not superman, but clearly, he's been shown to be much faster and stronger than a well-trained athlete, many many times. One of everyone's favorite Cap appearances seems to be DD: Born Again, where he's shown running to fast that he's a breeze."

http://www.comicboards.com/camb/view.php?rpl=060418204829&q=ed%20brubaker

"I see it as he's the ultimate of human potential. Not something the modern man could ever be, but like an evolutionary next-step, basically. He's not Thor or Spiderman, but he's not Batman, either."

Martian_mind
And we took a writers word as gospell when?a writer once said he saw Superman as an omnipotent bein who had no limitations.....

Alfheim
Originally posted by Martian_mind
And we took a writers word as gospell when?a writer once said he saw Superman as an omnipotent bein who had no limitations.....

Ok so what you're trying to say is that what a writers says is bad piece of evidence then? Maybe that writer is an idiot but in general writers are a good piece of evidence and especially when what Brubaker says about Cap has always been true.

Can you quote what he said maybe you are taking what he said out of context. Human beings in the Mu have unlimited potential but that doesnt mean everything single human being can fly.

Dinalfos
Well, uhm, yes, very true. I don't think anyone even disagrees with that. Whether Captain is as skilled as Batman or not is debatable (I personally tend to think he's better), but his far superior stamina and enhanced strength give him the edge.

Move along, nothing to see here, folks.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Dinalfos
Well, uhm, yes, very true. I don't think anyone even disagrees with that. Whether Captain is as skilled as Batman or not is debatable (I personally tend to think he's better), but his far superior stamina and enhanced strength give him the edge.

Move along, nothing to see here, folks.

*looks at watch* Right on time Dinalfos I was wondering when you would turn up. wink

The point is, if he is above Batman that is superhuman because Batman is obvoulsy peak human. Obvoulsy he is not superhuman like Spiderman but hes still super.

In marvel terms enhanced seems to be the more accurate description but Caps strength level is class 1 which is a superhuman strength range.

Dinalfos
Originally posted by Alfheim
*looks at watch* Right on time Dinalfos I was wondering when you would turn up. wink

The point is, if he is above Batman that is superhuman because Batman is obvoulsy peak human. Obvoulsy he is not superhuman like Spiderman but hes still super.

In marvel terms enhanced seems to be the more accurate description but Caps strength level is class 1 which is a superhuman strength range.

If Cap is officially classified as superhuman, it's alright with me wink I just hate it when they keep beating around the bush.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Dinalfos
If Cap is officially classified as superhuman, it's alright with me wink I just hate it when they keep beating around the bush.

So do I. I think the problem is that Cap is supposed to be a reprensentation of what a human being could be in perfect form, so be calling him superhuman it negates that.

I think marvel should start calling him enhanced human not peak, hell or even low level superhuman with the explanation that he is the absolute pinnacle of what a human being can be and not peak.

Dinalfos
Originally posted by Alfheim
So do I. I think the problem is that Cap is supposed to be a reprensentation of what a human being could be in perfect form, so be calling him superhuman it negates that.

I think marvel should start calling him enhanced human not peak, hell or even low level superhuman with the explanation that he is the absolute pinnacle of what a human being can be and not peak.

Well, that's how I always saw him. As a person who was physically perfected by means of scientific enhancement. It's not quite the same as low-level superhuman, though. That would be very contradictory.

Cap's powers are very much human (according to Marvel's classic portrayal), it's just that some of his (or our?) potential is out of reach. It's like having a million inherited dollars locked away in an adamantium safe of which you don't know how to open it. You ARE technically a millionaire, for sure, but you're not experiencing the benefits. So you're going to need external factors to realize your full potential as a wealthy SOB. But once you manage to open it, you're still not a billionaire.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Dinalfos
Well, that's how I always saw him. As a person who was physically perfected by means of scientific enhancement. It's not quite the same as low-level superhuman, though. That would be very contradictory.

Not really when they say Cap is the pinnacle they are implying that humans are capable of superhuman feats at maximum potantial, but obvoulsy they are not as superhuman as Thor.

Originally posted by Dinalfos

Cap's powers are very much human (according to Marvel's classic portrayal),


Dunno about that. Tackling down Thor, Iron Man and Giant Man. Again obvoulsy not as super as some people.

Originally posted by Dinalfos

it's just that some of his (or our?) potential is out of reach. It's like having a million inherited dollars locked away in an adamantium safe of which you don't know how to open it. You ARE technically a millionaire, for sure, but you're not experiencing the benefits. So you're going to need external factors to realize your full potential as a wealthy SOB. But once you manage to open it, you're still not a billionaire.

Well yeah.

Dinalfos
Originally posted by Alfheim
Not really when they say Cap is the pinnacle they are implying that humans are capable of superhuman feats at maximum potantial, but obvoulsy they are not as superhuman as Thor.

But if a human can do it, then it's not superhuman. It's okay to establish that humans can lift, say, 1 ton max in the MU, but then you'd also have to move the low-level superhuman category up a notch.




No, I meant how Marvel wants us to see him. I'm not talking about comic book feats.

Disappear
captain america was, is, and should forever be the pinnacle of human potential. he isnt meant to be superhuman. he's what we could all be given the proper training, lifestyle and genes. brubaker saying he's the "evolutionary next step" doesn't contradict that. neither does him saying cap isn't a batman analogue.

Martian_mind
Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok so what you're trying to say is that what a writers says is bad piece of evidence then? Maybe that writer is an idiot but in general writers are a good piece of evidence and especially when what Brubaker says about Cap has always been true.

Can you quote what he said maybe you are taking what he said out of context. Human beings in the Mu have unlimited potential but that doesnt mean everything single human being can fly.

the scary thing is that essentially is a quote....

Alfheim
Originally posted by Disappear
captain america was, is, and should forever be the pinnacle of human potential. he isnt meant to be superhuman. he's what we could all be given the proper training, lifestyle and genes. brubaker saying he's the "evolutionary next step" doesn't contradict that. neither does him saying cap isn't a batman analogue.

Well this is the way I see it maybe there were are misintepreting each other. Batman is clearly peak human, anything above peak human is obvoulsy superhuman but like Bru said hes not Thor.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
the scary thing is that essentially is a quote....

So.

Martian_mind
Originally posted by Alfheim



So.

?you asked for a quote,what i said he said is basically a quote,he stated that he saw Superman wthout limits and that he can do anything.

just pointing out we shouldn't use writers statements as conclusive evidence...even good ones,as Stan lee himself has said he thinkls Hulk can beat Superman erm

Alfheim
Originally posted by Martian_mind
?you asked for a quote,what i said he said is basically a quote,he stated that he saw Superman wthout limits and that he can do anything.

just pointing out we shouldn't use writers statements as conclusive evidence...even good ones,as Stan lee himself has said he thinkls Hulk can beat Superman erm

Yeah but theres nothing wrong with my quote. What Bru said is consistent with his showings in comics.

Again maybe you took the Supermna quote out of context read what I said.

Does Stan write for Superman?

Bru writes for Cap and has written for Btamn so he is more qualified to talk.

All things being equal what a writer said is usually good evidence.

Martian_mind
Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah but theres nothing wrong with my quote. What Bru said is consistent with his showings in comics.

Again maybe you took the Supermna quote out of context read what I said.

Does Stan write for Superman?

Bru writes for Cap and has written for Btamn so he is more qualified to talk.

All things being equal what a writer said is usually good evidence.

what was said about supes is fairly consistent,as he really hasn't shown a cap.

but still i'd use actual scans rather then a writers statement as proof.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Martian_mind
what was said about supes is fairly consistent,as he really hasn't shown a cap.

What?

Originally posted by Martian_mind

but still i'd use actual scans rather then a writers statement as proof.

Are you havin a laugh? Just look at Caps feats.

Martian_mind
Originally posted by Alfheim
What?



Are you havin a laugh? Just look at Caps feats.


I was saying seeing as Cap has feats to match the statements,i'd use the feats rather then then the statement.

or i might just be screwing around,you can't really tell,can you stick out tongue

Alfheim
Originally posted by Martian_mind
I was saying seeing as Cap has feats to match the statements,i'd use the feats rather then then the statement.

or i might just be screwing around,you can't really tell,can you stick out tongue
Well I actually kinda got the impression you were trying to wind me up. no expression

Martian_mind
Originally posted by Alfheim
Well I actually kinda got the impression you were trying to wind me up. no expression

oh silly,would i do that? wink

Alfheim
Originally posted by Martian_mind
oh silly,would i do that? wink

angrymob Get him! laughing out loud

Disappear
batman's also DC, where the term peak human can be interpreted differently. also, in marvel, the two main "peak humans" achieved their status through vastly different means than batman. that's like comparing red apples to green apples, and saying because the red apple is, for whatever reason, "beyond" green, it's a super apple.

and, as was said, brubaker's opinion doesn't equate to official edict. cap is still the pinnacle of human potential in the classic, non-mutatable sense. thus, peak human.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Disappear
batman's also DC, where the term peak human can be interpreted differently. also, in marvel, the two main "peak humans" achieved their status through vastly different means than batman. that's like comparing red apples to green apples, and saying because the red apple is, for whatever reason, "beyond" green, it's a super apple.


No the the difference is that Cap trains all the time and has the SSS. Batman trains all the time but does not have SSS, so Cap is highier. Your analogy does not work. Heres a better one. Batman is a green apple, but Cap is a green apple grown with stereoids or some artfical means, therefore Cap is the stronger apple.

Furthermore the writers for JLA vs Avengers said that Cap was better than Batman. 2 writers vs your opinion is better. So basically no Cap is above Batman.



Originally posted by Disappear

and, as was said, brubaker's opinion doesn't equate to official edict.


Well to tell the truth you can see he was just messing with me a bit. Im sure what a writers says is not official all the time but its not a bad piece of evidence.

Originally posted by Disappear

cap is still the pinnacle of human potential in the classic, non-mutatable sense. thus, peak human.

Again this depends on what you mean by peak human. But the fcat of the matter is that Cap is above Batman in stats. If you still see that as "peak" human fine. This is just becoming semantics.

Daredevil1
Correct but peak human potential. Batman peak athlete, Daredevil peak athlete, Hawkeye peak athlete.


Captain America enhanced peak potential

Black Panther enhanced peak potential

Both Batman and Daredevil are not at the preternatural level that enhance beings enjoy.

If regular men such as Batman/Daredevil/Hawkeye/could reach such high potential just from training. Then there wouldn't have been much of a point for "Operation Rebirth" to create such "Super-Soilders". As the Doctor Erstein stated this will be the first of men unlike the world has "never" seen before. The perfect man the next step in human "evolution."

Disappear
yet he didn't say supermen, or superhuman. wonder what that could mean.

batman being weaker or physically inferior to captain america isn't any contradiction to the idea that cap is peak human. captain america, thanks to his training and super-soldier serum and vita-rays was fast-forwarded to the pinnacle of human potential. virtually the same process occurred with black panther and the heart-shaped herbs; with additional side-effects. just because others, such as daredevil or batman, aren't at their level doesn't mean their level is unattainable. batman is considered DC's perfect physical specimen, in terms of human potential, but forcing a translation from another company to prove captain america being superhuman is nonsense. and daredevil's never been outright labelled a "peak human." saying the fact that captain america is above him proves cap's superhuman also doesn't make sense, as the comparison can't apply.

it seems we are at semantics at this point. you believe that, due to comparisons to other characters, captain america must be superhuman; especially if no other human character has reached his level through training alone. i, on the other hand, believe he's still the peak human he was designed to be because certain comparisons are hardly proof, and the fact that he hasn't been "caught up to" doesn't mean it's impossible, or that he's de facto superhuman.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Disappear
yet he didn't say supermen, or superhuman. wonder what that could mean.

Yeah?

Originally posted by Alfheim

"See, I never understand why everyone gets so worked up about this stuff. Cap was given the Super-Soldier Serum. The first word there is SUPER.

Originally posted by Disappear

batman being weaker or physically inferior to captain america isn't any contradiction to the idea that cap is peak human. captain america, thanks to his training and super-soldier serum and vita-rays was fast-forwarded to the pinnacle of human potential. virtually the same process occurred with black panther and the heart-shaped herbs; with additional side-effects. just because others, such as daredevil or batman, aren't at their level doesn't mean their level is unattainable.

Oh ok then Proffesor X is peak human then is he? Moondragon taught herself to have vast psionic powers and Dr Strange has psionic powers as well.

Originally posted by Disappear

batman is considered DC's perfect physical specimen, in terms of human potential, but forcing a translation from another company to prove captain america being superhuman is nonsense. and daredevil's never been outright labelled a "peak human." saying the fact that captain america is above him proves cap's superhuman also doesn't make sense, as the comparison can't apply.

1. Originally posted by Daredevil1

If regular men such as Batman/Daredevil/Hawkeye/could reach such high potential just from training. Then there wouldn't have been much of a point for "Operation Rebirth" to create such "Super-Soilders". As the Doctor Erstein stated this will be the first of men unlike the world has "never" seen before. The perfect man the next step in human "evolution."

2. Its very simple Captain Americas abilities are not normally obtainable, thats the whole point of the SSS. He is above what is normally possible for a human and therefore is superhuman.

Originally posted by Disappear

it seems we are at semantics at this point. you believe that, due to comparisons to other characters, captain america must be superhuman; especially if no other human character has reached his level through training alone.

Can you reach Spidermans level through training? So why isnt Spiderman peak human then? (Im not talking about climbing walls and shooting webs, im talking about strength and reflexes)

Originally posted by Disappear

i, on the other hand, believe he's still the peak human he was designed to be because certain comparisons are hardly proof,


Well you agree that Cap is above Batman why isnt Spiderman peak human?

Originally posted by Disappear

and the fact that he hasn't been "caught up to" doesn't mean it's impossible, or that he's de facto superhuman.

According to your logic Professor X and Spiderman are peak human. In fact the Supreme Intelligence said that all human beings well have vast psionic powers so yeah Professor X is peak human. laughing out loud

The whole point of the defintion of superhuman is beyond human. Cap clearly is above what is normally obtainable for humans but despite this cannot be considered to be superhuman, illogical.

Disappear
normally obtainable does not mean unobtainable. like i said, just because noone else has gotten there doesn't mean it's impossible; doesn't make him a de facto superhuman. assuming such is logical fallacy.

i don't understand how what i said could possibly be twisted to say spider-man and xavier are peak humans. i clearly said captain america is a peak human in the non-mutatable sense, which automatically rules out comparison to those who get their powers through mutation; genetic or through an outside influence. xavier and spider-man were mutated.

what it seems like you're doing is making illogical assumptions about what i'd said. it's entirely possible that the human race has the potential for telepathic powers; whether or not they are on the level of xavier is dubious. so, i suppose it is entirely possible that xavier is at "peak human" levels of telepathic ability, if that is indeed within humanity's potential. he achieved those powers through a shortcut, the x-gene, just like cap got his through a shortcut, the super-soldier serum.

spider-man, though. that doesn't make any sense. considering i specifically said that cap is the pinnacle of human physical ability, it would be directly contradictory to say that spider-man is also peak human. where did that come from?

and the word "super" being in the name of the serum doesn't really have any effect on the outcome. it's a name. they could call it the ultimate soldier serum, or the really cool soldier serum, and it'd have the same effects. arguing that point is like arguing that the rhino is actually a rhinoceros. i mean "rhino's" right in the name. you can't seriously be hinging an argument on something that trivial.

Symmetric Chaos
I demand that Cap now be moved to low meta! madshakefist

Tha C-Master
Originally posted by Disappear
normally obtainable does not mean unobtainable. like i said, just because noone else has gotten there doesn't mean it's impossible; doesn't make him a de facto superhuman. assuming such is logical fallacy.

i don't understand how what i said could possibly be twisted to say spider-man and xavier are peak humans. i clearly said captain america is a peak human in the non-mutatable sense, which automatically rules out comparison to those who get their powers through mutation; genetic or through an outside influence. xavier and spider-man were mutated.

what it seems like you're doing is making illogical assumptions about what i'd said. it's entirely possible that the human race has the potential for telepathic powers; whether or not they are on the level of xavier is dubious. so, i suppose it is entirely possible that xavier is at "peak human" levels of telepathic ability, if that is indeed within humanity's potential. he achieved those powers through a shortcut, the x-gene, just like cap got his through a shortcut, the super-soldier serum.

spider-man, though. that doesn't make any sense. considering i specifically said that cap is the pinnacle of human physical ability, it would be directly contradictory to say that spider-man is also peak human. where did that come from?

and the word "super" being in the name of the serum doesn't really have any effect on the outcome. it's a name. they could call it the ultimate soldier serum, or the really cool soldier serum, and it'd have the same effects. arguing that point is like arguing that the rhino is actually a rhinoceros. i mean "rhino's" right in the name. you can't seriously be hinging an argument on something that trivial. Especially since Super simply means "beyond". So the serum just makes it so a person is beyond what they normally can do. No matter who takes it. Spiderman could take it and he'd improve.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Disappear
normally obtainable does not mean unobtainable. like i said, just because noone else has gotten there doesn't mean it's impossible; doesn't make him a de facto superhuman. assuming such is logical fallacy.



Look heres the problem. The very defintion of the word superhuman means beyond human levels. You just admitted that Caps capabilities are not normally obtainable from training and that makes you superhuman, but you've decided now that doesnt mean superhuman.

Why is that? This is your main point. Just because something is not NORMALY obtainable does not mean its superhuman. Ok so is Professor X superhuman? Well you might call him a mutant but yes hes superhuman. Can you gain Professors Xs powers from training? Yes you can:

1. The tibetan monks in Marvel have psionic powers. They were shown creating force fields to stop bullets. The head of the Tibetan monks was able to create dimensional portals. Now assuming that the tibetan monks are based on the real world monks im assuming that they got their powers from training and not genetic manipulation.

2. Moondragon has vast psionic powers and gained them from training and not genetic manipulation.

3; Doctor Strange has psionic power as well. He did not gain them from genetic manipulation but from training.

4. All the other hundreds of other humans who have gained psionic powers from training. Cant remember them all but its probably quite alot.

So now according to your flawed defintion Professor X is now peak human.

Originally posted by Disappear

it's entirely possible that the human race has the potential for telepathic powers; whether or not they are on the level of xavier is dubious.

Irrelevant. Having any sort of psionic powers regardless of how powerful its is makes you superhuman and all humans have the power to do it.

Originally posted by Disappear

i suppose it is entirely possible that xavier is at "peak human" levels of telepathic ability,


Actually we can end this debate here. This is you admitting that im right. If you come back and tell me im being illogical i'll just pull this quote.

Originally posted by Disappear

if that is indeed within humanity's potential.

Any human is capable of having psionic powers in present day MU and in the past.


Originally posted by Disappear

he achieved those powers through a shortcut, the x-gene, just like cap got his through a shortcut, the super-soldier serum.

Irrelevant. Having pisonic powers is normally considered to be superhuman according to your defintion if you can gain it from training then its not superhuman.

Originally posted by Disappear

i don't understand how what i said could possibly be twisted to say spider-man and xavier are peak humans. i clearly said captain america is a peak human in the non-mutatable sense, which automatically rules out comparison to those who get their powers through mutation; genetic or through an outside influence. xavier and spider-man were mutated.

Let me get this straight right? Captain America is not comparable to Spiderman because he gained his powers from and outside influence but isnt that how Cap got his abilities? Cap may not be "mutated" but he gained his powers from an outside influence. Wow.

Originally posted by Disappear

spider-man, though. that doesn't make any sense. considering i specifically said that cap is the pinnacle of human physical ability, it would be directly contradictory to say that spider-man is also peak human. where did that come from?

Because all humans can train themselves to have psionic powers. If some human beings can train themseles to create force fields and have telekinetic powers why cant you use psionics to make you superstrong? Molly Hayes is a psionic and thats how her powers work (Please dont tell me shes a mutant the point is her powers can be replicated from training psionics her powers are a form of telekinesis) So spidermans strength levels are not normally obtainable from training but can be achieved.


Originally posted by Disappear

and the word "super" being in the name of the serum doesn't really have any effect on the outcome. it's a name. they could call it the ultimate soldier serum, or the really cool soldier serum, and it'd have the same effects. arguing that point is like arguing that the rhino is actually a rhinoceros. i mean "rhino's" right in the name. you can't seriously be hinging an argument on something that trivial.

My good god man. You said he didnt use the word super, I gave you an example. Why on earth did you think he put SUPER in block letters and then gave an example of Cap doing something superhuman (running as fast as a breeze)?

Thats why they call it Super soldier Serum because thats what it does. So the fcat that its got SUPER in it and makes you do superhuman acts is irrelevant. Incredible.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Especially since Super simply means "beyond". So the serum just makes it so a person is beyond what they normally can do. No matter who takes it. Spiderman could take it and he'd improve.

.....and if it takes you beyond what is normally capable of a human being that makes you superhuman...........

Daredevil1
IMO I think mostly this debate comes from misunderstanding from one another.


Captain America is Peakhuman. To call him that is "correct".

But to call him Super-Human in comparison to regular men such as Daredevil, Batman etc. Is also correct. He was created to be superior to these athletes. That alone by our standards makes him Super, Preternatural, etc etc.

But he still is the peak of human potential at the end of the day.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Daredevil1
IMO I think mostly this debate comes from misunderstanding from one another.

Maybe but the point is that we all agree that Cap is above people like Batman and DD. That makes you superhuman, being above what is normally obtainable by humans, but now all of a sudden it isnt.

The reason given is because just because its not normaly obtainable doesnt mean that it cant. This is illogical because as I have stated Professor X can be considered to be peak human because humans can train themselves to have his powers



Originally posted by Daredevil1

Captain America is Peakhuman. To call him that is "correct".

But to call him Super-Human in comparison to regular men such as Daredevil, Batman etc. Is also correct. He was created to be superior to these athletes. That alone by our standards makes him Super, Preternatural, etc etc.

But he still is the peak of human potential at the end of the day.

Totally agree.

[BAW]Endrict
Is this about Cable or Cap? Cap is peakhuman.

Alfheim
Its about Cap. Yeah Cap is peak human but as far as Cap fans are concerned thats superhuman.

Apolloknight
Originally posted by Alfheim
Its about Cap. Yeah Cap is peak human but as far as Cap fans are concerned thats superhuman.

Isn't Peak Human however, supposed to be as close to superhuman as possible, without actually being superhuman.

I would pass cap as "Enhanced" Human, seeing as how he has been enhanced.

However, not truly superhuman.

llagrok
Originally posted by Apolloknight
Isn't Peak Human however, supposed to be as close to superhuman as possible, without actually being superhuman.

I would pass cap as "Enhanced" Human, seeing as how he has been enhanced.

However, not truly superhuman.

peak
enhanced
superhuman

Enhanced is what Wolverine and Sabretooth is. It's not possible for humans to reach that level.

Apolloknight
Originally posted by llagrok
peak
enhanced
superhuman

Enhanced is what Wolverine and Sabretooth is. It's not possible for humans to reach that level.


First of all, yes wolverine is enhanced, but Sabretooth IS superhuman.

Next my friend, What is the definition of "Peak Human"!!???

Easy, it is defined by marvel as being as close to Superhuman as possible, without actually being it.

This is why marvel says Peak Human, also includes the "Enhanced" human range. After all, the likes of Cap, BP, and wolverine have all been enhanced in some way (Weapon X, SSS, Heart Shaped Herb).

To put it in Numbers, if low level superhuman is 10, then Peak human as to be 9.9. As that is as close has a human can get without being Superhuman.

Well, its not possible for normal humans to get to that peak human status through training alone. Lets say daredevil is an 8, he is highly trained, but not enhanced. In order to be enhanced you have to have some outside help, some herb, or some serum, or some crazy science project.

Basically, Peak human = Enhanced Human.

endrict
Cap is Peakhuman, Wolverine and Sabertooth are low superhuman.

Tha C-Master
Originally posted by Alfheim
Its about Cap. Yeah Cap is peak human but as far as Cap fans are concerned thats superhuman. Well that says it all right there.

Battlehammer
peakhuman does not mean ehcnaced human is the slightiest.

peak human is the best a human can be.

enchanced human is beyond the humans limits.

Disappear
Originally posted by Apolloknight
Well, its not possible for normal humans to get to that peak human status through training alone. Lets say daredevil is an 8, he is highly trained, but not enhanced. In order to be enhanced you have to have some outside help, some herb, or some serum, or some crazy science project.

Basically, Peak human = Enhanced Human.

that's a misconception based around poor logic. while enhanced humans may be lumped into "peak human" range, by your logic, that doesn't make all peak humans "enhanced." it's one of many expressions that imply a false relationship between two things. all elephants are grey, not everything grey is an elephant; all eagles are birds, not all birds are eagles. etcetera etcetera.

again, simply because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it's impossible and doesn't rule it out as a natural "peak" to human potential.

the idea that "superhuman" simply means being able to accomplish something the mean of humanity cannot or have not is also a gross misconception. there are those among us who are ambidextruous, which is something the vast majority cannot claim. it is, however, something we could accomplish given the proper training or disposition; meaning it's still within human potential. the same applies to all aspects of captain america's character, given that he's meant to epitomize the pinnacle of human potential.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Apolloknight
Isn't Peak Human however, supposed to be as close to superhuman as possible, without actually being superhuman.

Well lets put it this way right. The defintion of superhuman is beyond what is normally obtainable for humans and thats what Cap is. If you can run 60miles per hours its superhuman but obvoulsy its not as super as Spiderman. Also the max that Cap could lift not under duress is a superhuman amount its at least 1500lbs, doesnt matter how you spin being able to lift 1500lbs is a superhuman amount.

Originally posted by Apolloknight

I would pass cap as "Enhanced" Human, seeing as how he has been enhanced.

That its the most accurate defintion. The reason why he is probably called peak human is because the SSS boosts the human body to maximum efficiency for example eliminating lactic acid.

Originally posted by Apolloknight

However, not truly superhuman.

Not an unreasonable statement.


Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Well that says it all right there.

Well if you take what I say out of context, of course you would say that.

Originally posted by Disappear

again, simply because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it's impossible and doesn't rule it out as a natural "peak" to human potential.

Which therefore means that according to your logic Professor X or anybody with psionic powers is peak human not superhuman.

Originally posted by Disappear
i suppose it is entirely possible that xavier is at "peak human" levels of telepathic ability, if that is indeed within humanity's potential.

I also gave plenty of evidence to show you that all humans have the ability to have psionic powers but you compleletly ignored it.


Originally posted by Disappear

the idea that "superhuman" simply means being able to accomplish something the mean of humanity cannot or have not is also a gross misconception.

I tell you what you give us a better defintion then, because all your doing is saying that our defintion is crap and not giving us an alternative. If thats a bad definition you give us a better one, because if you really thought about what you said that means all psionics are not superhuman.

Even the dictionary fits our defintion of superhuman.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/superhuman
1. above or beyond what is human; having a higher nature or greater powers than humans have: a superhuman being.
2. exceeding ordinary human power, achievement, experience, etc.: a superhuman effort.

Now all of a sudden that above doesnt mean superhuman....wow.



Originally posted by Disappear

there are those among us who are ambidextruous, which is something the vast majority cannot claim. it is, however, something we could accomplish given the proper training or disposition; meaning it's still within human potential. the same applies to all aspects of captain america's character, given that he's meant to epitomize the pinnacle of human potential.

Wow lets compare ambidextrous to running as fast as a breeze, running at 60 miles per hour. Obvoulsy when we mean beyond human levels we mean by a significant amount. Again the examples sucks because people have been able to train themselves to be ambidextrous but nobody has run at 60 miles per hour. What the f**k?

You dont need to take a serum to be ambidextrous but you need one to run 60mph.

Disappear
Originally posted by Alfheim
Which therefore means that according to your logic Professor X or anybody with psionic powers is peak human not superhuman.

I also gave plenty of evidence to show you that all humans have the ability to have psionic powers but you compleletly ignored it.

if by plenty of evidence, you mean you said you thought you remembered the supreme intelligence saying something about humans having psionic potential, then you're right. it's entirely possible that all humans could naturally develop psionic powers on xavier's level, which would accordingly mean xavier is at the peak human level of telepathic ability. if you actually want to show some evidence, in the literal sense of the word, i could speculate further. and saying "any psionic power makes you superhuman," and then saying all humans can attain psionic powers is a contradiction, by the way.



Originally posted by Alfheim
I tell you what you give us a better defintion then, because all your doing is saying that our defintion is crap and not giving us an alternative. If thats a bad definition you give us a better one, because if you really thought about what you said that means all psionics are not superhuman.

Even the dictionary fits our defintion of superhuman.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/superhuman
1. above or beyond what is human; having a higher nature or greater powers than humans have: a superhuman being.
2. exceeding ordinary human power, achievement, experience, etc.: a superhuman effort.

Now all of a sudden that above doesnt mean superhuman....wow.

you realize that the definition you provided just proved the analogy you attempted to disprove below, right? it's like you're tripping on your own feet.

we already had this discussion, by the way. you believe that because his strength and other stats are not normally physically attainable, they're automatically superhuman; intentionally neglecting the fact that they are still within humanity's potential. just because they haven't occurred yet doesn't mean it's impossible, nor does it mean that they automatically exceed human potential; thus becoming "superhuman."


Originally posted by Alfheim
Wow lets compare ambidextrous to running as fast as a breeze, running at 60 miles per hour. Obvoulsy when we mean beyond human levels we mean by a significant amount. Again the examples sucks because people have been able to train themselves to be ambidextrous but nobody has run at 60 miles per hour. What the f**k?

You dont need to take a serum to be ambidextrous but you need one to run 60mph.

if the serum put him at the pinnacle of human potential, then you DON'T need a serum to replicate what he did. you have to come to the pinnacle of human potential in some other way. trying to compare a relatively small feat to a more respectable one, thus disproving a premise, doesn't amount to jack when the principle of both is the same. also, i truly doubt cap's ever hit sixty miles per hour.

in the end, i think it's really just a blind fixation on the term "superhuman" that's got you incapable of wrapping your head around what i'm saying.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Disappear
if by plenty of evidence, you mean you said you thought you remembered the supreme intelligence saying something about humans having psionic potential, then you're right.

No there was alot more than that, you didnt read it did you? Im not just talking about the future but the present humans as well.

1. The tibetan monks in Marvel have psionic powers. They were shown creating force fields to stop bullets. The head of the Tibetan monks was able to create dimensional portals. Now assuming that the tibetan monks are based on the real world monks im assuming that they got their powers from training and not genetic manipulation.

2. Moondragon has vast psionic powers and gained them from training and not genetic manipulation.

3; Doctor Strange has psionic power as well. He did not gain them from genetic manipulation but from training.

4. All the other hundreds of other humans who have gained psionic powers from training. Cant remember them all but its probably quite alot.

Originally posted by Disappear

it's entirely possible that all humans could naturally develop psionic powers on xavier's level, which would accordingly mean xavier is at the peak human level of telepathic ability. if you actually want to show some evidence, in the literal sense of the word, i could speculate further. and saying "any psionic power makes you superhuman," and then saying all humans can attain psionic powers is a contradiction, by the way.

you realize that the definition you provided just proved the analogy you attempted to disprove below, right? it's like you're tripping on your own feet.

we already had this discussion, by the way. you believe that because his strength and other stats are not normally physically attainable, they're automatically superhuman; intentionally neglecting the fact that they are still within humanity's potential. just because they haven't occurred yet doesn't mean it's impossible, nor does it mean that they automatically exceed human potential; thus becoming "superhuman."


if the serum put him at the pinnacle of human potential, then you DON'T need a serum to replicate what he did. you have to come to the pinnacle of human potential in some other way. trying to compare a relatively small feat to a more respectable one, thus disproving a premise, doesn't amount to jack when the principle of both is the same. also, i truly doubt cap's ever hit sixty miles per hour.

in the end, i think it's really just a blind fixation on the term "superhuman" that's got you incapable of wrapping your head around what i'm saying.

To be quite honest I think you dont understand what im saying and you are taking what I said out of context. So heres two questions.

1. Does having psionic powers make you superhuman?
2. Why?

P.S. Cap has run 60 miles per hour before and can see bullets in slow motion.

Tha C-Master
Originally posted by Alfheim



Well if you take what I say out of context, of course you would say that.

I didn't have to, you basically just said it all. He's peak, but you guys don't think so. I have no need to change anything. Nothing wrong with having your own beliefs, as long as you try to support it. Again, I think he can do superhuman things, but not as easy as a "superhuman" can.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I didn't have to, you basically just said it all. He's peak, but you guys don't think so.

Er yeah we do, but we dont think hes Batman with a shield or a glorified athelete.

Hes superhuman by the broad defintion. More accurately hes enhanced in Marvel terms.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master

I have no need to change anything. Nothing wrong with having your own beliefs, as long as you try to support it.

Running 60mph and it wasnt a sprint he was running at that speed for an hour. Seeing bullets in slow motion?

Alfheim
Originally posted by Disappear
the lowest levels of superhuman strength start around 1000 pounds, according to references made to both quicksilver and toad. peak human strength is approximately 800 lbs. and it's a very rare thing for weights to actually be mentioned on-panel, such as "there's captain america lifting 1100 pounds." some people, when researching respect threads, look up real-life equivalents to what they see, but that doesn't mean that that is the intended weight limit by the writer or artist.



Anyway doesnt really matter because I already proved the above statement wrong, because I already showed Cap doing reps with 1100lbs.

If you can do ten reps of 1100lbs you can do one rep 1500lbs. Thats 500lbs into the superhuman range.

Disappear
Originally posted by Alfheim
To be quite honest I think you dont understand what im saying and you are taking what I said out of context. So heres two questions.

1. Does having psionic powers make you superhuman?
2. Why?

P.S. Cap has run 60 miles per hour before and can see bullets in slow motion.

i did read it, i just found your evidence conflicting, so i toned it down for my recitation.

and, as i've said whether or not psionic powers make you superhuman depends, as you brought up, on what powers, and to what levels those power go, within human potential. moondragon learned them from scratch, as did various other characters. whether that's an all-encompassing ability for humanity, one that only needs to be cultivated, makes the difference between whether a certain level of psionic ability is superhuman, or within human potential because that's what peak human is. the pinnacle of human potential.

again, it's all semantics that you're getting upset over. you think superhuman is a fluid, subjective term used strictly in comparison to other humans; hence, something "normally" unattainable. whereas i prefer a stricter definition meaning beyond the bounds of human potential. that's my prerogative, kid. just like yours. it's entirely possible for you to just let sleeping dogs lie and quit trying to tell me i'm wrong, and in turn, i could do the same for you.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Anyway doesnt really matter because I already proved the above statement wrong, because I already showed Cap doing reps with 1100lbs.

If you can do ten reps of 1100lbs you can do one rep 1500lbs. Thats 500lbs into the superhuman range.

and, as i asked when this was originally brought up, i'd still love to know from what issue that came. i wouldn't mind finding out where his sixty miles per/in one hour feat came from, either.

Daredevil1
Temugin and Stick are flat out "Superhuman" and they are just regular humans who reached such a level by training.


Temugin can channel his chi in several manners and reduced Ironmans armor to scrap in there encounter. He even removed all his rings to make it a fair fight for Ironman. And he's not even enhanced like Captain America.


Stick has shown mystical martial art abilities by absorbing life force, casting illusions, telepathy, moving by spirit even even coming back to life after dying. He's the guy who taught Daredevil.



My opinion on Cap in comparison to most not all, most on the likes of great athletes Daredevil, Batman, Hawkeye. He is a super in comparison to them. Of course that level is human potential in itself as well.

Daredevil1
Originally posted by Disappear
and, as i asked when this was originally brought up, i'd still love to know from what issue that came. i wouldn't mind finding out where his sixty miles per/in one hour feat came from, either.


It comes from Cap's 65th special anniversary. By the writer Ed Brubaker.

[BAW]Endrict
Peak human ends at 800lb, Superhumn starts at 800lbs +

Tha C-Master
Now you do think he's peak, you just said he isn't. Which one is it?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Er yeah we do, but we dont think hes Batman with a shield or a glorified athelete.

Hes superhuman by the broad defintion. More accurately hes enhanced in Marvel terms.



Running 60mph and it wasnt a sprint he was running at that speed for an hour. Seeing bullets in slow motion? You can't say that humans in the MU are different than in the real world, and then say that he's superhuman by real world terms, we understand that and it makes your argument conflict itself.

Cap doesn't produce lactic acid, and just about all comic characters have made bullets pushovers in comics, there's a difference between dodging a bullet and a marksman missing. 99% of the time it's the latter.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Disappear

and, as i've said whether or not psionic powers make you superhuman depends, as you brought up,
on what powers, and to what levels those power go, within human potential. moondragon learned them from scratch, as did various other characters. whether that's an all-encompassing ability for humanity, one that only needs to be cultivated, makes the difference between whether a certain level of psionic ability is superhuman, or within human potential because that's what peak human is. the pinnacle of human potential.

Yes I agree with that. Most humans have the ability to have some sort of psionic power or magical power, but if you look at the showings of humans every power can be replicated through psionics or magic. Its is unlikely that every single human being will be able to be as powerful as Pro x or Dr Strange they could be considered to be exceptional or peak. Thats why Dr Strange is Sorcerer Supreme ie there are other sorcerers but he is the best.

I guess the problem is I dont believe that you think that really, because you defined superhuman strength as starting from 1000lbs. If you think that superhuman strength is 1000lbs why on earth would you consider Pro X to be peak human?

Originally posted by Disappear

again, it's all semantics that you're getting upset over. you think superhuman is a fluid, subjective term used strictly in comparison to other humans; hence, something "normally" unattainable.



Yes.


Originally posted by Disappear

whereas i prefer a stricter definition meaning beyond the bounds of human potential. that's my prerogative, kid. just like yours. it's entirely possible for you to just let sleeping dogs lie and quit trying to tell me i'm wrong, and in turn, i could do the same for you.

Do you realise that you cannot give me an example of any human (person from earth, aliens are humanoids) with powers that cannot be gained from other means such as magic or pisonics, because this is what you said.

Originally posted by Disappear

again, simply because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it's impossible and doesn't rule it out as a natural "peak" to human potential.


If you actually think about what you said then class 100 strength can be considered to be peak human but thats not what you think is it? The ability to fly can be peak human, is that what you think? In fact all the earths heroes are peak human. If Prof X can be peak human then anything is possible

So please give me a specfic example of somebody you consider to be superhuman.


Originally posted by Disappear

and, as i asked when this was originally brought up, i'd still love to know from what issue that came.


No you didnt when I first showed you the scans of him doing reps with 1100lbs you disappeared, how does that look to you? This is what is irritating me you already defined superhuman strength as starting from 1000lbs I provided the evidence and you didnt say jack now your coming back here saying hes NOT superhuman. What would you think?

As for the issue number I had it but i'll have to search for it. laughing out loud

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Now you do think he's peak, you just said he isn't. Which one is it?

You define peak human as a glorified athelete. Is that how I define it?

Originally posted by Tha C-Master

You can't say that humans in the MU are different than in the real world, and then say that he's superhuman by real world terms, we understand that and it makes your argument conflict itself.

No it doesnt what it means is that superhuman is exceptional but its something which can be obtained through other means ie meditating for years .

Originally posted by Tha C-Master

Cap doesn't produce lactic acid, and just about all comic characters have made bullets pushovers in comics, there's a difference between dodging a bullet and a marksman missing. 99% of the time it's the latter.

Cap has dodged bullets after they have fired and blocked them. Not all characters can dodge bullets after they have been fired eg Nick Fury, Punisher etc.

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