Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Who wins?

Two mighty duelists fight against one another.

I would have to say Kas'im would win becasue he has more training and mastered all forms and mastered the double-bladed, hard to do (I know Maul has too). Dooku juts didn't have as much training as he did, if he had more training, then it might go to him, but I would give this match to Kas'im.

Good fight. But in the end I'd give it to Kas'im because of his mastery of all 7 forms and the use of his double blade. He'd win after a long fight.

Dooku. He has :Experience, knowledge, learned from more powerful people, better force attacks(Ask Kenobi, Quinlan, Asajj, or Sora), better duelist (trained/beat Greivous, Asajj, Anakin and Obi Wan (AOTC),), extensive knowledge of both sides of the force, and, is just overall better.

Damn...this is so close...

Can somone please supply me with a pic of Kas'Im in action?

I havent seen one yet.

We need a Pic people!!

That'll help decide...

He's a big dickweed Twi'Lek who really hasn't done anything, other than be killed and help train Bane.

Oh ok, good enough'.

DOOKU WINS!!!

Count Dooku wins for several reasons:

1.) The greatest user of Makashi. With his superb mastery of this lightsaber against lightsaber form he was able to take on the likes of Yoda and Anakin w/Obi-Wan, all who were powerful duelists.

2.) Battlemaster of the Jedi Order. He has mastered all the forms except Juyo/Vapaad.

3.) Was said to be one of the best Jedi ever to go through the Order.

Kas'Im is deadly, but I doubt his Jar'Kai can take on Dooku's Makashi.

Kas'Im just has way more going for him, he has mastered everything there is to the lightsaber, he has his own unique style, he is in better physical condition, he has better reflexes, and he is arguably stronger in the force.

1.) Dooku mastered everything as well. Duh, he's Battlemaster.

2.) Dooku uses an unorthodox Makashi style.

3.) Dooku is in pretty fit condition to me. He can use the Force to revitalize him and he's pretty strong (he kicked Anakin against the wall man)

4.) How is Kas'Im better in the Force? Dooku has shown us lightning, Choke, Whirlwind, etc.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
1.) Dooku mastered everything as well. Duh, he's Battlemaster.

2.) Dooku uses an unorthodox Makashi style.

3.) Dooku is in pretty fit condition to me. He can use the Force to revitalize him and he's pretty strong (he kicked Anakin against the wall man)

4.) How is Kas'Im better in the Force? Dooku has shown us lightning, Choke, Whirlwind, etc.

1. No, battlemasters don't have to master everything. Dooku was a strict practitioner of Makashi from what I know, and switching forms after practicing with one for 40+ years is very, VERY dumb.

2. Never heard that one, so I'm going to call for bs.

3. Kicking Anakin against the wall after you dazed him isn't hard.

4. Where did he show whirlwind and choke?

1.) Battlemasters literally everything to do with the lightsaber. They know all the forms and they know some extra techniques. Otherwise, any Jedi could be battlemaster.

2.) Somebody here said that Dooku used unorthodox Makashi.

3.) Anakin is super strong man. You saw how muscular he is. And it wasn't a normal kick. He kicked the guy in the air into a wall like ten feet away.

4.) ROTS. I would say that his Force Pull was more similar to Whirlwind because how he slammed Kenobi into the platform.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
1.) Battlemasters literally everything to do with the lightsaber. They know all the forms and they know some extra techniques. Otherwise, any Jedi could be battlemaster.

2.) Somebody here said that Dooku used unorthodox Makashi.

3.) Anakin is super strong man. You saw how muscular he is. And it wasn't a normal kick. He kicked the guy in the air into a wall like ten feet away.

4.) ROTS. I would say that his Force Pull was more similar to Whirlwind because how he slammed Kenobi into the platform.

1. Source?

2. That doesn't make it a point if you can't back it.

3. Fair.

4. "You would say" means it's your opinion not fact. Still where did he use choke?

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
1.) Dooku mastered everything as well. Duh, he's Battlemaster.
Making up shit again?


So? Kas'im mastered all 7 forms, like Yoda..Except Yoda never mastered double bladed fighter, while Kas'im has.


Again, so?



Good enough to use a force shield on himself when Bane used a force wave on the temple. I highly doubt Dooku has much chance here. Kas'im was the greatest warrior of the new sith order, and possibly ever. Not much chance for Dooku to win.

ROTS on Kenobi. Are you sure you know who Dooku is? Have you seen the movies? Obi Wan gestures at his throat as though he can't breathe... Also, Dooku has used choke in EU (Such as on Quinlan Vos). I'm going to assume you don't know what you're talking about. Dooku does fine against two lightsabers (Asajj, Anakin, Sora, Hell; even Greivous with 4). Dooku had Yoda for a master as a Jedi, and Sidious as a Master for a Sith.
Dooku broke a balcony, fried Asajj, fried Sora, casually choked Kenobi, casually choked Quinlan while relieving him of his lightsaber, Threw around stone and metal at Yoda, and so on. That's only with the force. He also (using his lightsaber): Punked AOTC Anakin, punked AOTC Kenobi, put up a good fight against Yoda, beat Windu once (at an unknown time), stalemated Windu during the Clone Wars, and a lot more, I'm lazy right now.

Either Labyrinth of Evil or Dark Rendezvous said he was the Jedi Order's greatest lightsaber instructor.

In LoE, Dooku trained General Grievous in all of the lightsaber forms. And he goes on to tell Grievous that he can demonstrate what attacks that he may experience from Obi-Wan Kenobi, Ki Adi Mundi, and Yoda (among others).

And, Kas'Im may beat Dooku in a lightsaber match, but it won't be easy. And I doubt he'd beat him in a Force fight, either.

Er...can you prove this with a quotation? Is it a requirement for the battlemaster to master every form of dueling? Could it be that he earned his title just by his excellence in Makashi, or knowledge in every lightsaber form (but not necessarily mastery)? Kas'im was described by the omniscient narrator as the greatest in the galaxy/possibly ever.



Er...can you prove this with a quotation?



Fair enough, but Kas'im was also in excellent physical shape. Bane was knocking on the door, but he couldn't finish it because Kas'im opened the door before the second hit and pulled Bane into his room.

Bane and Sirak were dueling in what was described as a "blur." Since Kas'im = Sirak*6.023*10^24, he is definately moving FAST.

Not seeing how Dooku has an advantage here...



Dude, Kas'im deflected protected himself from a blast of energy that annihialated the Rakatan temple. I can see him easily deflecting any of these attacks, and counterattacking with his own.

Not seeing how Dooku has an advantage here...

I am not arguing for one or another, but I just felt that some of your points could use some elaboration or some back up.

1.) From Wookiepedia:

"the Jedi battlemaster not only had to have deep knowledge of all combat styles, but also had to have mastered them with considerably advanced skill."

2.) All right, I will look for it.

4.) Look at ROTS. You see Dooku choking Kenobi and then throwing him away. His use of it is more of Whirlwind than a simple Push.

Clearly, Dooku would take this. I mean he defeated two of the most powerful Jedi and still was able to stalemate the "most deadly foe of the darkness".

Originally posted by Blue_Hefner
Clearly, Dooku would take this. I mean he defeated two of the most powerful Jedi and still was able to stalemate the "most deadly foe of the darkness".

What kind of an argument is this? Obiwan and Anakin were hardly two of the most powerful Jedi. And he didn't stalemate Yoda, read the AOTC novelization. Not to mention he fleed. I fail to see how any of this gives him any advantage over someone who, like Yoda, mastered all 7 forms of lightsaber combat, and unlike Yoda, did it with a double blade.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
1.) From Wookiepedia:

"the Jedi battlemaster not only had to have deep knowledge of all combat styles, but also had to have mastered them with considerably advanced skill."

2.) All right, I will look for it.

4.) Look at ROTS. You see Dooku choking Kenobi and then throwing him away. His use of it is more of Whirlwind than a simple Push.

1. Wooh. Hold up. Where does it say he was battlemaster?

2. Okay.

4. I'd have to say no on the whirlwind. But your right on the choke.

Er, Wookiepedia is not exactly the most reliable source. It states that Sion was a master of force drain, when I haven't really seen anything like that stated in KOTOR.

Do you have the actual source for this if it exists? Do you have proof that Dooku was a battlemaster even? Sorry, I just haven't bothered to read about Dooku much...

Kas'im mastered everything INCLUDING double bladed and Jar Kai. Not to mention he was a skilled force user who could defend against blasts of energy capable of reducing temples to rubble. He was stated to be the "perfect weapon" and best duelist in the galaxy at that point. The author states that he is "possibly the greatest ever." There is no proof that Dooku beats him.



Er, it seems like a simple use of choke and then a simple use of push. Kas'im, I am fairly sure, can defend against such a mundane attack, given that he was able to protect himself from Bane's ubermensch blast.

nothing more than a force choke. I can do what he did playing Jedi Academy. yet it's still a force choke.

Kas'im has this. He's got more experince and he's mastered all the forms. I'd put him as equal to, if not above Bane, and I doubt anyone that is properly informed would argue that Bane would lose to Dooku.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Kas'im has this. He's got more experince and he's mastered all the forms. I'd put him as equal to, if not above Bane, and I doubt anyone that is properly informed would argue that Bane would lose to Dooku.

Actually I'll be the first to say Bane would lose to Dooku in a saber duel. Bane only got close to beating Kas'im because he knew his movements backwards and forwards, and he knew the temple very well, that's all.

Keep digging a hole.

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
Keep digging a hole.

Considering i've provided arguments and you've done nothing, I don't consider myself digging a hole, troll.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Considering i've provided arguments and you've done nothing, I don't consider myself digging a hole, troll.

Actually, I've defeated half your points along with Zephiel; so really, I've done mroe than you.

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
Actually, I've defeated half your points along with Zephiel; so really, I've done mroe than you.


Is that why nobody will acknowledge your dream world? Talk about denial.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Is that why nobody will acknowledge your dream world? Talk about denial.

What dream world? Who's around to acknowledge it?

And here's my argument:

Proven facts:

Kas'im knew all seven lightsaber forms, and trained with them

He can deflect any force power sent by Dooku

Deductions:

Dooku does not have the endurance (Logical deduction) to fight long with Kas'im. (How old is Kas'im? Anyone?)

Your argument that's been undeniably proven:

Dooku is able to kick Anakin

Count Dooku was able to block two overhanded strikes from Anakin and Obi-Wan (simultaneously) at the beginning of their duel in RotS. He did so with one hand.

He was also able to, yes, kick Anakin into a wall, as well as keep up with Obi-Wan and Anakin, physically, through most of their duel. He did so in AotC, as well.

His endurance is extremely considerable.

Originally posted by Escape81
Count Dooku was able to block two overhanded strikes from Anakin and Obi-Wan (simultaneously) at the beginning of their duel in RotS. He did so with one hand.

He was also able to, yes, kick Anakin into a wall, as well as keep up with Obi-Wan and Anakin, physically, through most of their duel. He did so in AotC, as well.

His endurance is extremely considerable.

I'm going along the lines that he's holding his body together through the force; look at Yoda when he fought Sidious. He slowly lost his WTFPWNED111!!1 abilities that he had in AoTC. If this goes down to the wire, Dooku will be tired as hell.

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
I'm going along the lines that he's holding his body together through the force; look at Yoda when he fought Sidious. He slowly lost his WTFPWNED111!!1 abilities that he had in AoTC. If this goes down to the wire, Dooku will be tired as hell.

I agree with you, mostly.

In sheer endurance, Count Dooku or Yoda or Palpatine aren't on par with the younger duelists. However, all three of them are amazingly powerful in the Force. Utilizing such things, they are capable of keeping up - or indeed - surpassing those who are younger than them.

You make it sound as if, after three swings, Dooku will be gasping for breath. This isn't the case. He will be able to match Kas'Im for a while, I'd imagine, and would certainly be capable of defending himself.

But, yes, in the long run, he'll be the one who gets tired first.

Not to mention the list of people he's owned
Mace Windu
Obi Wan twice
Ventress
Sora Bluq
Tholme
Grevious
Stood toe to toe with Yoda twice
Quinlan Vos
AOTC Anakin

That alone is more impressive then anything Kas'im has ever done, when Kas'im tools someone on par with Mace Windu then he'll be in contention to take on Dooku till then no.

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
I'm going along the lines that he's holding his body together through the force; look at Yoda when he fought Sidious. He slowly lost his WTFPWNED111!!1 abilities that he had in AoTC. If this goes down to the wire, Dooku will be tired as hell.


Wont happen as Dooku has shown multiple times to be able to fully revitalize himself with the force, in the middle of a duel.

Originally posted by Escape81
I agree with you, mostly.

In sheer endurance, Count Dooku or Yoda or Palpatine aren't on par with the younger duelists. However, all three of them are amazingly powerful in the Force. Utilizing such things, they are capable of keeping up - or indeed - surpassing those who are younger than them.

You make it sound as if, after three swings, Dooku will be gasping for breath. This isn't the case. He will be able to match Kas'Im for a while, I'd imagine, and would certainly be capable of defending himself.

But, yes, in the long run, he'll be the one who gets tired first.

True, but that force power doesn't really come into this duel since Kas'im has shwon he can block a force power of greater magnitude than anything Dooku utilizes.

Ya, that's my fault. I'm never compeletely clear when say something unless I'm being an idiot.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Wont happen as Dooku has shown multiple times to be able to fully revitalize himself with the force, in the middle of a duel.

Seems like a simple display of force heal to me... an ability that many a lowly knight could perform.

I would like you to prove that Dooku can revitalize himself while Kas'im is nailing him with his lightsaber skills...

By the way, this battle is a close one... but there haven't seen any arguments that prove Dooku will take out Kas'im.

Exactly, I doubt Kas'Im would give him the time or space to do that.

Zephiel, I doubt he could. Not when he's fighting someone like Kas'im.

There's no way the Count has this. Kas'Im has basically mastered everything about the saber, every form and sequence, every weapon (with the exception of a few such as the 'saber fork', 'saber whip' and 'saber cane', and he is in perfect physical condition - his reflexes are phenomenal, his stamina is great and he's incredible fast.

A battlemaster teaches lightsaber forms to all Jedi. If it was just a regular Jedi having mastery in just one form, then Plo Koon could have been Battlemaster. No, Cin Drallig has mastered all forms, Kyle Katarn has, and so has Dooku (otherwise they're not bm).

And if the Jedi wasn't at least skilled in every form, then how can he properly teach it. He has to know all the moves.




Yet I doubt Kas'Im can move as fast as Yoda and Dooku was able to fight him (Yoda) and keep up with his pace.



Wookiepedia is 95% accurate most of the time. It even gives its long list of sources to give how they made each and every one of their articles.




1.) Dooku was considered one of the GREATEST to go through the Jedi Order.

2.) Could take on Yoda, who was considered the Supreme master of the Light.

3.) Perhaps the greatest user of Makashi.

There is definate proof that says Dooku > Kas'IM



How was that mundane? He could literally simueltaneously Choke and Whirlwind at the same time. He kept choking Kenobi to weaken him. And how was that simple push, that Whirlwind SLAMMED Kenobi into the platform and got him unconscious.




Um, excuse me? This is the same power that Qui-Gon Jinn had to meditate for for a minute and Malak had to drain Jedi for. Plus he did this while he kicked back down from Anakin. He could definately do if he spins out of Kas'Im's way for just ten seconds.




And your arguments have?

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
A battlemaster teaches lightsaber forms to all Jedi. If it was just a regular Jedi having mastery in just one form, then Plo Koon could have been Battlemaster. No, Cin Drallig has mastered all forms, Kyle Katarn has, and so has Dooku (otherwise they're not bm).
There is absolutely NOTHING, nor ANY evidence to suggest that Dooku or Kyle mastered all 7 forms. Stop speculating, you're not making a cogent argument. Not to mention there is NO proof Dooku was anything more than a Sith Lord.


1. Not in the novelization
2. They fought for what, 15 seconds? Give it another 30 and Dooku would have been sliced in half, that's why he left.




95% corrct? Hardly.





So?


No, he could keep up with him but he KNEW he couldn't win so he left.


OMG!! WHERE!! Oh wait




It was ONLY a choke. Play Jedi Academy. He choked him picked him up, and threw him..

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
A battlemaster teaches lightsaber forms to all Jedi. If it was just a regular Jedi having mastery in just one form, then Plo Koon could have been Battlemaster. No, Cin Drallig has mastered all forms, Kyle Katarn has, and so has Dooku (otherwise they're not bm).

Again, where does it say Dooku was a battlemaster?



He doesn't need to know every move to teach a from to a disciple.



Where's your proof he can't move as fast?




And if you can give me one of the sources that says a battlemaster is a master of every form, I'll believe you. Too bad for you the battlemaster page of Wookiepedia has no sources.




1. Never heard, so disregarded.

2. Could hold Yoda

3. Opinion, not fact. No logical conclusion. Point moot.




And me along with others have proven Kas'im can block Dooku's force attacks.



No, he couldn't. Revilizing takes time, and he won't be given it.

Whats with KMC's latest hard on with this loser?

Ok, you guys whole argument for Kas'im is "Kas'im tooled Bane therefor he is teh bestest ever!" he gets a generic "the best" quote that is thrown around so much nowadays it holds little relevance, what has Kas'im actually done? Mastered all 7 forms, Beat Bane. The latter is NOT impressive what so ever, and should not be used to compare Kas'im to Dooku in anyway, Bane had been an student for months and a Sith Lord for weeks, I don't care how much "special night courses" he got from Kas'im that in NO WAY compares to 70 years of experience.

Kas'im could possibly give Dooku a tough match but he wouldn't be able to beat him, as much as people throw around the "Mastered 7 forms" Dooku has a more then adept understanding of every form including Vaapad, as he was a blademaster and taught Grevious all the forms, and ROTS novel calls him a "Master of swordplay"

Lets also look at the opponents Dooku has beaten, Mace ****ing Windu was tooled by Dooku in Obsessions, that alone puts him above Kas'im till we have definitive proof that Kas'im can beat someone who is more then a fledgling Sith Lord he's not really that much more special then Cin Darling.

Then we have Dooku, with 70 years of knowledge of the force and lightsaber combat, Dooku who was taught by the two supreme avatars of there respective sides of the force, Dooku who has put force users on their knees by sending a pin cushion sized force blast at them, Dooku who tooled Sora Bluq and Tholme at the same time. Dooku > Kas'im.

^brings up good points. Kas'im was considered the best of HIS time right? who's to say that's as good as present day?

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
^brings up good points. Kas'im was considered the best of HIS time right? who's to say that's as good as present day?

who's to say it's not?

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Whats with KMC's latest hard on with this loser?

Ok, you guys whole argument for Kas'im is "Kas'im tooled Bane therefor he is teh bestest ever!" he gets a generic "the best" quote that is thrown around so much nowadays it holds little relevance, what has Kas'im actually done? Mastered all 7 forms, Beat Bane. The latter is NOT impressive what so ever, and should not be used to compare Kas'im to Dooku in anyway, Bane had been an student for months and a Sith Lord for weeks, I don't care how much "special night courses" he got from Kas'im that in NO WAY compares to 70 years of experience.

What's up with your hostility against Ancient Sith?

And I haven't used that as an argument, and it hasn't been used by anyone for pages.



Where does it say he has adept knowledge of all forms?



Let's take into account the fact Bane can desatroy a Rakatan temple with a force attack. Now, that kinda beats what Mace did, don't you think?



Again, claims not substantiated. Where did he send a pin cushion force blast? And how is that powerful?

What are you talking about? I Bane and Kas'im aren't Ancient Sith, as for the hostility Im just sick of the "Omg bestests" quote which gets thrown around in EU so much it holds no real relevance.





A logical deduction perhaps? If he taught Grevious from scratch someone who WTF pwned masters all the forms its assumed he's more then adept, let alone the fact he was a blademaster.





Lets take into account Mace has destroyed an entire droid army with his bare hands, and as of now were not talking about the force and Bane didn't just casually do that attack it was all his reservoirs of force energy and it took him time to charge.





It put Ventress on her knees, I have the exact quote I'll post it when I find it.

Mastered every form of lightsaber dueling?
Defended against a blast of energy that ripped apart a temple?
Described by the omniscient narrator as a contender for title the greatest duelist ever?




Proof that he mastered them all?

And that "master of swordplay" is moot. Any damn person (Fisto included) who wields a ligthsaber moderately well is considered a damn master of swordsplay.



Could you prove up with a source. As I recall, two droids took Mace and threw him away.



Prove that he is in Drallig's level. His speed was described as nothing short of incredible. He pushed back the prodigy that was Bane. There is proof he mastered all forms of dueling.



Years does not equate with strength. Urr was tooled by Exar in the force. Oops.

Again, what is a force lightning going to do against someone who withstood Bane's energy blast. (which leveled a temple)



Oh wow, prove that Sidious taught everything...



Prove up. Are you talking about lightning or a force push?



Neither of these guys match up to Bane. Kas'im was tooling Bane with the lightsaber. Bane and Sirak, were moving as a blur in their duel.



Are we talking about Mace's ability in Clone Wars which was stated by Leeland Chee to be an exageration?

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
What are you talking about? I Bane and Kas'im aren't Ancient Sith, as for the hostility Im just sick of the "Omg bestests" quote which gets thrown around in EU so much it holds no real relevance.

Except being a master in all 7 forms, being called the perfect warrior and possibly the greatest ever, and being the best in the sith order makes you one of the best.






Grievous is a damn robot. He's got 4 arms.. Apparently those 4 weren't good enough against Obiwan.






Actually Bane was dead tired from the fight, not the force wave.

Let me make this clear. Labyrinth of Evil confirms that Count Dooku was once the Jedi's foremost lightsaber instructor. That is the same position that Drallig holds, which is the same as the NJO rank of "battlemaster", which Kyle Katarn has.

Dooku has either mastered all of the forms (which I could believe) or has extreme knowledge of all of them.

Originally posted by Escape81
Let me make this clear. Labyrinth of Evil confirms that Count Dooku was once the Jedi's foremost lightsaber instructor. That is the same position that Drallig holds, which is the same as the NJO rank of "battlemaster", which Kyle Katarn has.

Dooku has either mastered all of the forms (which I could believe) or has extreme knowledge of all of them.

Escape, there's nothing to suggest he mastered all the forms. I'm sure he knew others, but he wasn't on the level of Sidious, Yoda, or Kas'im.

No need, here's an extract from page 24 of Yoda: Dark Rendezvous:

Mantises squirmed and hunted in the vision over his desk. He snapped off the holocron and consulted a monitor. "Ah. Our latest batch of guests is arriving. Loyal beings and true, for the Trade Federation cause and a ten percent profit. Go meet them at the door. You always make such an impression on visitors."

"Don't patronize me," Asajj said coldly.

Dooku looked around. "Or what?"

Her face went pale.

Dooku lifted that one finger, and this time he tapped it in the air, as if pushing a needle into a pincushion. Ventress crumpled to her knees. Her voice came out clotted with pain. "Please," she said. "Don't."

"It doesn't feel very good, does it? Like sharp stones in your throat and chest." Dooku made another little patting motion, and Ventress slammed to the tile floor. "It's the blood vessels I hate," Dooku said. "The way they stretch inside, like balloons about to pop."

"P-p-p-please . . ."

"But worse than anything is the memories," he said, more softly still. "They crowd around, like flies on meat. Every despicable thing, every petty vice, every little act of spite." A cruel, strange quiet stretched out as Ventress panted on the stone floor. Rain ticked against the window glass, and the Count's soft voice went dark and far away. "All the things you should have stopped, but didn't, and nothing will ever be right again. And the things you've done," he whispered. "By the pitiless stars, the things you've done . . ."

The comm on Dooku's desk beeped. He shook his head, like a man waking from a dream. "The Troxan delegation is at the door."

Ventress crawled to her feet. Her face was bruised and her cheeks were wet with tears. Both pretended not to notice. "Tell them I'll be right down," Count Dooku said.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Escape, there's nothing to suggest he mastered all the forms. I'm sure he knew others, but he wasn't on the level of Sidious, Yoda, or Kas'im.

You're ignoring facts. Aside from being the foremost lightsaber instructor in the temple, and one of the greatest in the Jedi's history, you forget that he trained General Grievous in all of the lightsaber forms. He also promised Grievous in LoE that he could demonstrate what attacks that Grievous would get from Mace, Drallig, Yoda, and Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Where was this said, LoE?

Originally posted by King Adas
Where was this said, LoE?

This is one:

Dooku taught Grievous well, and Grievous had taught his elite well. Coupled with Dooku's coaching, the programing in the seven classic forms of lightsaber dueling - made them lethal opponents.

Another:

"Do I need to demonstrate what responses you can expect from Cin Drallig or Obi-Wan Kenobi? From Mace Windu, or stars help you, Yoda?"

There is one in RotS novelization that I'm looking for, as well.

Once again, Mastering every form =/= sheer leetness as it should, Cin Darllig got WTFpwned by Anakin with one hand. Defended against a blast? Dooku has physically surpassed the strength of two men (One of them being Anakin ****ing Skywalker) with one hand, One kick sent Anakin flying 10 feet. AGAIN having the "bestest" quote tossed around so lightly in EU leads me to believe that its not that special, and how has he proved this? By pwning Bane, again big deal. If he was the bestest of his order he would have been the leader not Kaan, he would have been more then a lacky, if he was the perfect warrior, he wouldn't have been killed.




What don't you get about adept, adept =/= master.



BS, you prove up that statement where Kit Fisto is said to be a master of swordplay.





I can't post direct pictures, since Swtimeline isn't working for me, but its in the last issue of Obsessions Mace charges Dooku and gets WTFPwned by him.





Lol Bane was NOT a saber prodigy (anther term thrown around too much) Bane had been studying for MONTHS, that is in NO WAY compared to Kas'im or Dooku, its a guess as to why Bane didn't get shitted on with the Double Blade. Again you fall back on the tired old "He mastatd 7 forms!"





Urr was never described as one of the most powerful Jedi in the 25k year history of the order. Oops.



Never said he would do it, why are you putting words in my mouth.






Never said he did, again learn to read, I said he LEARNED from the two most powerful figures ever save for Luke.




Push




A blur to whom? To a bunch of fledgling SIth students who as a collective whole sucked ass?





Im not even gonna get into this but are you seriously gonna try to compare Months of actual experience Bane to Mace Windu?





YAWN, If he was the perfect warrior, why did he die, why wasn't he leading the BOD, if he was truly teh bestest. Newsflash The BOD SUCKED.





Obi Wan who had the perfect style to beat him, the same Grievous who was injured by Mace. Grievous was TOOLING 5 Jedi at ONCE, at one point, two of them being masters.




"Drained by the sudden unleashing of the force." pg 245, he was exhausted from getting owned yes, but the force blast DRAINED him.

Key word = 'programing'. The saber forms were programmed into them, Dooku wouldn't have had to teach them the forms, and so, there is still no evidence that he knew all 7 forms.



... Is there a point to this quote?

... Is there a point to this quote?

He had to know there forms in order to show Grevious what to expect.

Originally posted by King Adas
Key word = 'programing'. The saber forms were programmed into them, Dooku wouldn't have had to teach them the forms, and so, there is still no evidence that he knew all 7 forms.



... Is there a point to this quote?

Oh so you can now program fighting moves into a cyborg? Matrix much? And the point of the quote was Dooku is proficent enough to mimic the exact fighting styles and moves of the top Jedi.


I'll say this again until Kas'im tools a Mace Windu level being in pure saber combat, he's not on Dooku's level, tooling a fledgling Sith Lord is not an indication of true power, Dooku does it constantly to Ventress, And as for those students in the Sith Academy, they were shit, especially when Githany who had been a average Jedi Knight with a lust for power was pretty much better then ALL of them save Sirak, and these same shitty students became Lords weeks later, what does that say about the NSO, that they sucked, period. And Kas'im was the best duelist in that shitty order. Once again Big Fish, Small Pond.

Ah OK, I just couldn't tell that from that one quote alone, it wasn't put into context.

Why not?

Just seems stupid, do they have every form in a computer somewhere? Did Grevious even have implants in his head? Why didn't they do it to Vader or more Droids to combat the Jedi? To illogical.

Ah right, so by your logic, he can't possibly do it because he has never demonstrated it. That's great.



Bane progressed by an insane amount in those couple of years, he was a serious prodigy, quit trying to downplay Kas'Im.



1. Ventress is no Bane.
2. He is only able to do so because he intimtaely trained wit her and knew all of her weaknesses.



How were they shit, they were the best of the best that the BoD had to offer, in regards to students.



Any proof that she was an average jedi? This is very unlikely, especially considering she was able to defeat Kiel Charney, one of the most pwoerful jedi at the time.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Just seems stupid, do they have every form in a computer somewhere? Did Grevious even have implants in his head? Why didn't they do it to Vader or more Droids to combat the Jedi? To illogical.

The things is AC, it is clearly stated that the forms were programmed into them, so no matter how stupid it sounds, it still counts.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
What are you talking about? I Bane and Kas'im aren't Ancient Sith, as for the hostility Im just sick of the "Omg bestests" quote which gets thrown around in EU so much it holds no real relevance.

Yet it's fine when it gets thrown around in the RotS novelization?



And already stated, Grevious was programmed.




Let's take into account Bane became the leader of the sith, etc.

It put Ventress on her knees, I have the exact quote I'll post it when I find it.

Originally posted by King Adas
The things is AC, it is clearly stated that the forms were programmed into them, so no matter how stupid it sounds, it still counts.

I believe that programming part was referring to the IG-100 droids, not Grecious. You can't program a living being.

No, but hwy go with the unknown who has the generic "teh bestest" quote vs an Established Jedi and Sith Lord with the "teh bestest" quote.





Couple years? He was on Korriban for MONTHS get it right. He was a force prodigy maybe, but not with the saber.





Never said she was I was pointing out the ownage of wannabes is nothing special. SO DID KAS'IM, and he still owned Bane by busting out Jar Kari, your point?





And the best of the best in the BOD were shit. Pretty simple especially since there only pretty much a step above canon fodder.

"Bane recognized him as one of the lesser students of the Academy on Korriban: so weak in the darkside, it wasn't even worth learning his name."

That kinds of pieces of shit are the made LORDS, those kinds of shits are the best of the best, there were 3 good students at that school, Bane, Githany and SIrak thats it the rest blew.





She was able to defeat him as a Sith Lord, and prove up Kiel Charney was one of the most powerful. She demonstrate nothing spectacular, aside form being cute and ambitious, she even commented on the pathetic amount of lightning she could only muster AS A SITH.

Im off to bed.

From what you are saying, I take it that you imply all kas'im knew were sequences, and patterns towards each fighting form?

Kas'im regarded mastery as beyond sequences and patterns of each lightsaber form. He stated that in order to master lightsaber dueling, you would have to use the darkside, not just know sequences.
Given this we can logically infer that it was not just "knowing all the patterns," but a genuine leetness with all the saber forms.

Unless you would like to prove he knew nothing more than "simply sequences and patterns" we are to assume that he was a master by his definition.

Can you prove that all the BM's mastered all forms of dueling.



And? Prove that Drallig was a contender for the "best duelist of the galaxy" title.



Is this supposed to mean anything? Other than the fact that the entire thing was a ruse by Kenobi and Anakin to trick Dooku, it means very little actually.

Skywalker's Shien ready-stance had been a ruse, as had his Ataro gymnastics; the boy was a Djem So stylist, and as fine a one as Dooku had ever seen. His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head. Especially not while also defending against a second attacker.

The novelization even states ; he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength-not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing

Outpowers two men...right.



And? Skywalker came right back up and pwned his ass...You are not proving anything.




Really? Other than the fact that the quote said he could could compete for the best ever duelist (which includes figures like Skywalker, Windu, Sidious...)



Kopeckz stated that Kaan was leader only by virtue of charisma

Strong leader does not equal best duelist, get your facts straight.




Right, he was tooling Bane. The only reason he died was because he got cocky, and Bane unleashed a blast of energy that brought down the temple on him.




Prove that this Mace was as strong as ROTS Mace. I remember Dooku having his droids interrupt the fight. Please show me the comic when you can.




Right despite the fact that he DESTROYED the master duelist of the academy in a short time span. Despite the fact that he was capable of producing force lightning that rivalled the masters of the academy in his short study span.

I am going to ask you to prove that Bane was a slower learner than I initially asserted, especially given his feats.



I would like you to prove that statement up.

And stop downplaying Urr. My point still stands. He had a millenia to obtain knowledge. His years of experience didn't save him from getting tooled.



And my answer is... Who gives a shit? What are you trying to get with this ridiculous statement? Learning from the best does not mean you learned everything.




They were described as blurs. Oh my... stop trying to downplay this.

According to your logic, Luke and Palpatine moving as blurs means nothing because the only one watching was Leia (who was still relatively untrained in saber dueling)




If you wish to cede this point go ahead. I still have not seen any proof on your part that this Windu is = to Windu in ROTS.






He was overconfident...Wow. He deflected Bane's titanic blast. The only reason he died was because he didn't kill Bane soon enough. He was killed by the collapse of the temple.


Prove now that Dooku can take down Kas'im.

As I recall, Dooku defeated Mace before Mace discovered and utilized his shatterpoint. It's unlikely Dooku could defeat ROTS Mace.

@Zephiel:


No one said that he was. However, he was the foremost lightsaber instructor in the Order, after Count Dooku left. He taught the likes of Obi-Wan, at the very least, in his time as instructor.

He was a master of all seven forms, much like Kas'Im. Point being, unfortunately, knowing all seven forms looks really good (I don't deny it at all) on paper, but even people who know them all can be beaten. Yoda, Drallig, and Dooku = perfect examples.



I'm not aware that you can fake two overhanded strikes by two extremely fit and powerful Jedi Knights. If you look at their faces in RotS, you even see Anakin and Kenobi gritting their teeth. They are putting effort into it.

And, yet, eighty-three year old Count Dooku was able to block it with one hand.



Skywalker is an anomaly, Zephiel. I should hope that, by now, you understand that the "usual limits and rules" don't apply with him. He was able to overpower Count Dooku when he was unrestrained and taunted to the point of immense rage.

@King Adas


Understood and conceded. Still, she was remarkably talented.



I don't recall this specific part of Dark Rendezvous. Where does it specifically state (or even imply) that Dooku was able to perform this feat due only to his intimate knowledge of her?



The PT > all other eras (with the possible overall exception of the New Jedi Order) in terms of lightsaber skill.

I would argue this. How do you know they were not acting (haha get it... nvm)

No, but with all seriousness, a good ruse would have to entail a certain amount of acting. Especially after the ruse, Dooku describes that : he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength-not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing.

Afterwards, I remain skeptical about the whole part of him genuinely outpowering the duo...

Originally posted by zephiel7
I would argue this. How do you know they were not acting (haha get it... nvm)

No, but with all seriousness, a good ruse would have to entail a certain amount of acting. Especially after the ruse, Dooku describes that : he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength-not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing.

Afterwards, I remain skeptical about the whole part of him genuinely outpowering the duo...

In serious curiosity, is "outpower" even a word? I'm aware of overpower...

Anyways, remember that - as the fight progressed - his energy died down. Their first strikes took place at the beginning of the duel. I'd say he possessed sufficient power to block their attacks at the beginning and likely middle of the duel - just not the end.

Also remember, when that statement was made, he was fully emersed within Djem So.

Take into consideration the context.

Anyways, I'll talk to you later. Nighty night.

Originally posted by Escape81
In serious curiosity, is "outpower" even a word? I'm aware of overpower...

Dont matter to me. If it communicates the idea, then its as good as any other word.



I find this unlikely. Anakin was using a combination of Ataru and some other form, it was likely not an attempt to break Dooku's arms.

If you look at the novelization, Tyrannus mentions that everything was easy until they show their strategy...
But not only did Kenobi easily overleap this attack, Dooku nearly lost his own foot to a slash from Skywalker who had again come out of nowhere and now carved through the table so that it collapsed under Dooku's weight and dumped the Sith Lord un-:eremoniously to the floor. This was not in the plan. Skywalker slammed his following strike down so hard that the shock of deflecting it buckled Dooku's elbows.

Clearly he is not ACTUALLY a physical match for them both combined. It was a ruse to lull him into a false sense of security.



Er..Show me? I am not sure what you are trying to get at...

Dooku also left the medical center, but was attacked by Mace Windu. Dooku outmaneuvered Mace after a short duel, and his MagnaGuards grappled the Jedi, disarming him and dragging him into a pit while Dooku headed for the evacuation point, rescuing Grievous' body.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Boz_Pity#The_Battle

There it is, Mace charges Dooku full blast and Dooku tools him around to a pit in the ground ans sics his guards on him.

if he was battle master isnt he suppose to know all the forms anyway he is one of the only guys who ever out sparred mace windu beside YODA.

Wow, are you stupid? What is the point of a Battlemaster (or as Escape says, Lightsaber Instructor) if they don't know all the forms. Besides Juyo/Vapaad, Dooku has mastered every form. If a Jedi Master like Depa was chosen for Battlemaster or Plo Koon, they cannot be it because if a Jedi wanted to learn Niman or Ataru, they can't properly teach them because they only specialize in one form.

Wookipedia's definition of Battlemaster:

"Battlemaster (or Sword Master) was the title for a head lightsaber combat instructor of the Jedi Order. During the Clone Wars, Cin Drallig was the Jedi Temple's premier battlemaster. Under the New Jedi Order, Kyle Katarn was the battlemaster.

While Cin Drallig, as a member of the Old Jedi Order, had received formal training by other Jedi, Katarn was mostly self-taught. However, he did receive formal training in general fencing while he was a cadet at the Imperial Academy at Carida, and also learned many techniques from the spirits of Qu Rahn and the ancient Jedi Tal in the Valley of the Jedi such as the Flowing Water cut and the Falling Leaf attack.

Not to be confused with the Jedi trainers (who taught students in the ways of the Force), the Jedi battlemaster solely taught students in the way of lightsaber combat. The primary trainers of how to both defend against and, when necessary, assault a foe, the Jedi battlemaster not only had to have deep knowledge of all combat styles, but also had to have mastered them with considerably advanced skill.

Accordingly, the title of battlemaster was bestowed to a rare few; one battlemaster represented each Temple or Academy within the Order. Generally, however, there was only one battlemaster at a time. A successor was usually chosen after the current battlemasters' retirement or death. ""

As you can see the highlighted sections, the Battlemaster is a powerful rank and given only to best swordsmen.



Movie beats out novelization.



Wrong, Wookiepedia is factual most of them. The fact that it isn't official canon stops me from putting 99%. Wookiepedia gives more in depth analysis and info on characters than SW Databank. Even if somebody spams in it, they clear it out very soon. You, my friend, can't accept the fact that Wookie backs my argument.




From Wookie and there was a book that said it:

""During his time as an instructor within the Jedi Temple, his teachings on methods for conquering arrogance were particularly well received. He was fond of telling his students""



Duh. I am just proving to some people that being a Battlemaster is quite an honorable rank to hold, saying that you are quite skilled. Of course, Dooku is going to win with his Makashi.



Dooku does not have to use the Force to defeat Kas'Im. All he needs to do is go for Cho Sun (cutting out opponent's hand) and then Kas'Im is defenseless.



He just booted by Anakin, and even though he would dazed, he was able to FULLY HEAL himself (not just renew himself a little bit) but make as if he was fully fresh and ready to battle. And Anakin came right upon him. In the movie you Anakin kicking Dooku and then jumping at him, thus the only time he could have done the healing is when spun to ground and spun his lightsaber.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Wow, are you stupid? What is the point of a Battlemaster (or as Escape says, Lightsaber Instructor) if they don't know all the forms. Besides Juyo/Vapaad, Dooku has mastered every form. If a Jedi Master like Depa was chosen for Battlemaster or Plo Koon, they cannot be it because if a Jedi wanted to learn Niman or Ataru, they can't properly teach them because they only specialize in one form.
Somebody needs a lesson in logical arguments. "Dooku has mastered every form" is speculation until you show one ounce of proof, until then shut up.


You don't have ANY proof about Kyle learning all 7 forms, not to mention it's unclear if the NJO Jedi used even 1 or 2 of the old forms, since they were lost during the Jedi Purge.



And again, until you have some real proof that Dooku OR Kyle learned 7 forms, you can speculate as much as you want.




And yet, Yoda>>>Dooku, as Dooku has admitted several times.




Being a battlemaster won't help dooku much against someone CONFIRMED to have mastered every form of lightsaber combat there was.




OMG that's SOOO Logical. Kas'im is going to just stand there and get his hand cut off. Let me use YOUR logic. All Kas'im has to do is cut off Dooku's head, and he wins!

I believe, DS, that Prodigal has provided sufficient evidence that makes it quite clear that Count Dooku was, at the very least, extremely adept in all of the lightsaber forms. As have I.

You and Zephiel have not provided a shred of a counterargument to refute it.

I think that you should be mature enough to consent that point.

Originally posted by Escape81
I believe, DS, that Prodigal has provided sufficient evidence that makes it quite clear that Count Dooku was, at the very least, extremely adept in all of the lightsaber forms. As have I.

You and Zephiel have not provided a shred of a counterargument to refute it.

I think that you should be mature enough to consent that point.

I don't have to refute it, aside from wikipedia, you guys have absolutely NO evidence. "Oh he was a battlemaster he MUST have known all 7 forms". At the very MOST it is possible he was familiar with all the forms, at MOST. There's nothing to even remotely suggest he was a master of all 7, or even half of them.

Yeah sure all right. Kyle Katarn DID KNOW all the forms as Battlemaster of the NJO. The NJO used three forms, but still he matches the description of BM which I have been trying to get through your thick skull.



Wrong, that would mean Yoda would horribly pawn Dooku. No, Yoda and Dooku are not that far apart and pretty close.



Yet, Dooku knows the technique of Cho Sun. If he can cut of Kas'Im's arm, then the Twi'Lek master is screwed. Does Kas'Im know Cho Sun? And yes, Dooku does not need to use the Force while fighting (like when he fights against Yoda), he just needs to utilize his awesome Makashi skilz.

Wow, you don't get it do you. There is not going to be a source that says "Oh Darth Sexy, you're wrong. Battlemaster's know all forms."

It is implied. With logic, it is pretty obvious that a battlemaster knows several forms.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Yeah sure all right. Kyle Katarn DID KNOW all the forms as Battlemaster of the NJO. The NJO used three forms, but still he matches the description of BM which I have been trying to get through your thick skull.
YOU said Kyle knew ALL 7 forms. I said it is unclear WHICH forms the NJO Jedi use, if any of the old ones, so YOU have absolutely no point. Thanks




Pretty close in what? Perhaps saber combat? Yoda is superior to Dooku in both.




And once again, how is he going to cut off the arm from a master who can use force speed during a lightsaber fight. Dooku has no chance.

Why is it obvious?

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Wow, you don't get it do you. There is not going to be a source that says "Oh Darth Sexy, you're wrong. Battlemaster's know all forms."

It is implied. With logic, it is pretty obvious that a battlemaster knows several forms.

No no no, YOU said he knew ALL the forms. Make up your mind? This isn't logical deduction, it's mindless speculation with different versions of the truth.

What other source than wikipedia and LOE (which says Dooku was lightsaber instructor, or was it a different book).

Even Databank doesn't have an article on Battlemasters. Are you going to say that Battlmasers dont exist then. Wrong, wookie has given a logical proof that BM's know all forms.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
What other source than wikipedia and LOE (which says Dooku was lightsaber instructor, or was it a different book).

Even Databank doesn't have an article on Battlemasters. Are you going to say that Battlmasers dont exist then. Wrong, wookie has given a logical proof that BM's know all forms.


Sorry that you don't know how to logically debate. Here's your argument

According to a Wikipedi source(we can debate its authenticity in terms of canon), all Battlemasters know all forms
Dooku, was a battlemaster
Therefore he knows all forms..

There's a lot wrong with your theory.

Okay Sexy, since you're so stupid that you can't even understand simple terms of English:

Jedi Battlemaster's know all forms, and they are skilled and proficient in all these forms (except Juyo/Vapaad, which only Mace and his apprentices know, so that doesn't count).

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Okay Sexy, since you're so stupid that you can't even understand simple terms of English:

Jedi Battlemaster's know all forms, and they are skilled and proficient in all these forms (except Juyo/Vapaad, which only Mace and his apprentices know, so that doesn't count).

Juyo is a regular form. And you still haven't proven he knows all forms with a reliable source.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Okay Sexy, since you're so stupid that you can't even understand simple terms of English:

Jedi Battlemaster's know all forms, and they are skilled and proficient in all these forms (except Juyo/Vapaad, which only Mace and his apprentices know, so that doesn't count).

That would mean they DONT know all 7 forms you jackass LOL...You really are an idiot.. Here's another example of your argument

All A's are B's and all B's are C's..
Therefore all A's are C's.

See the flaw there? If you don't, then there's no point in debating for you.

The Law of Detachment I have used.

According to Wookiepedia, Battlemasters know all forms.

Dooku was a Battlemaster.

Thus he knows all forms.

Yes, what's wrong with that?

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
The Law of Detachment I have used.

According to Wookiepedia, Battlemasters know all forms.

Dooku was a Battlemaster.

Thus he knows all forms.

Yes, what's wrong with that?

oh god.

Oh my god, literally nobody knows Vapaad except Mace and three other Jedi. It's not even a main form taught by Jedi. So just because they don't know Vapaad, they don't know any other form!!!

Wrong, Juyo is an incomplete form and Vapaad was rarely used.

Yep, oh god. According to Wookiepedia, Dooku is a Battlemaster and knows all forms.

Now the point is whether Wookie is credible

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Oh my god, literally nobody knows Vapaad except Mace and three other Jedi. It's not even a main form taught by. So just because they don't know Vapaad, they don't know any other form!!!

Wrong, Juyo is an incomplete form and Vapaad was rarely used.

Juyo is a form.. Sidious knew it, Maul knew it. Therefore your logic is flawed before you even begin arguing that Battlemasters knew all the forms. So much for your Wikipedia source.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Yep, oh god. According to Wookiepedia, Dooku is a Battlemaster and knows all forms.

Now the point is whether Wookie is credible

Which it isn't, proven by the shit of Form VII Sansacu.

We don't even have to mention how credible Wikipedia is.. He's got no argument. First he says Battlemasters know all the forms which is clearly untrue. Then Kyle knows all the forms yet the NJO might not have had a single old form, so obviously Wikipedia is a shit source in this instance.

Wrong, Sansacu has been deleted. Yes, people spam in Wookiepedia. But Wookiepedia corrects them to make it all right again.

No, wookipedia DOESNT correct them, good try.

Battlemasters know the 6 traditional forms and the unorthodox forms and the rest of the techniques (save Vapaad/Juyo). Kyle does know all the NJO forms, thus he fits the description of BM.

Okay then, tell me how they did it. The obviously edited the article so it doesn't contain it anymore. Whatever way it happens, Wookiepedia still goes back to being factual.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Okay then, tell me how they did it. The obviously edited the article so it doesn't contain it anymore. Whatever way it happens, Wookiepedia still goes back to being factual.

And unless the article has a source, it's unreliable.

Kyle in Fast:

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/7/76/Fast.jpg

Kyle in Medium:

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/9/9c/Medium.jpg

Kyle in Strong:

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/e/e4/Strong.jpg

Wookiepedia's sources for Lightsaber Forms:

Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
Fightsaber: Jedi Lightsaber Combat - Star Wars Insider 62
Attack of the Clones Visual Dictionary, Lightsaber Combat (page 62)
Revenge of the Sith Visual Dictionary
Dark Forces: Jedi Knight
Star Wars: Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast
Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy
Hero's Guide Web Enhancement - Lightsaber Forms and the Fallanassi

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Wookiepedia's sources for Lightsaber Forms:

Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
Fightsaber: Jedi Lightsaber Combat - Star Wars Insider 62
Attack of the Clones Visual Dictionary, Lightsaber Combat (page 62)
Revenge of the Sith Visual Dictionary
Dark Forces: Jedi Knight
Star Wars: Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast
Star Wars: Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy
Hero's Guide Web Enhancement - Lightsaber Forms and the Fallanassi

Sources for Battlemaster article:

NONE.

"Dark Forces: Jedi Knight"

However, some books mention Dooku, Kyle, and Cin being lightsaber instructors and such.

Well here's what this website says about BM, though its not as accurate as Wookie.


SWRPGNETWORK
"""The Battlemaster was to be found wherever a powerful force for the dark side is harming innocents. Like all Jedi, the Battlemaster saw combat as a last resort, but unlike the others he was more prepared to do battle than others. Battlemasters made excellent military commanders, front-line soldiers, and special operations team members. Some Battlemasters were focused on brute force and head-on attack styles; others preferred more subtle maneuvering before making a surprise assault. The Battlemaster was calm and collected in combat, never letting his emotions override his rational thinking. Battlemasters attacked with precision and confidence, and always knew exactly when to fight, where, and when to stop. A Battlemaster did not seek out combat, but rather prepared themselves to be the best when it came time to take up arms in the defense of the light side.""""

Lightsaber instructor doesn't mean you know them all, PK. I'm an instructor of boxing. (part-time) Does that mean I know everything about boxing? No.

Let's see. Count Dooku was a master of Makashi; he was the foremost lightsaber instructor of the Jedi Order. His apprentice was a user of Ataru - and he combated Yoda (another user of Ataru). He instructed Grievous in all forms of lightsaber combat.

Sorry. Logical deduction points to Dooku knowing all of the forms. That Cin Drallig and Yoda (who functioned as lightsaber instructors before) know these forms, and yet Dooku, miraculously, doesn't, is completely foolish.

Originally posted by Escape81
Let's see. Count Dooku was a master of Makashi; he was the foremost lightsaber instructor of the Jedi Order. His apprentice was a user of Ataru - and he combated Yoda (another user of Ataru). He instructed Grievous in all forms of lightsaber combat.

Sorry. Logical deduction points to Dooku knowing all of the forms. That Cin Drallig and Yoda (who functioned as lightsaber instructors before) know these forms, and yet Dooku, miraculously, doesn't, is completely foolish.

He implanted Grevious with all forms, as pointed out by Adas earlier in this thread.

No, it actually doesn't. I'm a boxing instructor. Do I know how to fight like a heavyweight? No. I work with middleweights.

Oh my god, this is not REAL LIFE.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Oh my god, this is not REAL LIFE.

OH MY GOD, LOGIC STILL APPLIES.

Originally posted by Escape81
Let's see. Count Dooku was a master of Makashi; he was the foremost lightsaber instructor of the Jedi Order. His apprentice was a user of Ataru - and he combated Yoda (another user of Ataru). He instructed Grievous in all forms of lightsaber combat.

Sorry. Logical deduction points to Dooku knowing all of the forms. That Cin Drallig and Yoda (who functioned as lightsaber instructors before) know these forms, and yet Dooku, miraculously, doesn't, is completely foolish.

No logic DOESNT. He didn't know juyo and he CERTAINLY didn't know Vaapad. Logic points to him knowing a FEW forms at BEST.

FEW FORMS!!! He knows everything besides Vapaad/Juyo. You're just assuming that because he doesn't know a form only Windu and his crew knows, he only knows a few forms. WTF??

Originally posted by Escape81
he was the foremost lightsaber instructor of the Jedi Order.

However there are other lightsaber instructors in the order, so it wouldn't be required for him to know all of the forms as the others could know the forms he didn't, and thus be able to teach the jedi.



Just because he was his master, that wouldn't mean he would have had to teach him his saber form, Jinn most likely learnt it from another lightsaber instructor. And since when does him doing well against another Ataru user indicate in any way that he may possibly know Ataru?



This is false, Grievous didn't know all 7 forms. All he did was program the forms into the magnaguards.



Since when do Cin Drallig and Yoda know all forms, source?

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
FEW FORMS!!! He knows everything besides Vapaad/Juyo. You're just assuming that because he doesn't know a form only Windu and his crew knows, he only knows a few forms. WTF??

Again, you have not proven he knows all forms. I will bring back my other argument. By your logic, because I instruct middleweights, I should be able to train heavyweights. Not the case.

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
Again, you have not proven he knows all forms. I will bring back my other argument. By your logic, because I instruct middleweights, I should be able to train heavyweights. Not the case.


I'm gonna call BS

Boxing =/= Lightsaber Training

The difference with you and Dooku is you Training Middle weights (I'd assume) Middleweights have a different training regime from say Flyweights or Heavyweights because of their body types, A Heavyweight can't throw 200+ Punch's per round like the lighter weights can because of their bodies limit them to around 60 or so. Thus different types of physiques different types of training, different instructor for each class. With Lightsaber training everyone is pretty much physically equal, and with the aid of the force can adjust to any physical limits, Everyone getting the same training = a hole in your logic as in boxing every fighter has a different training regime. I don't know maybe I'm just rambling...

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
I'm gonna call BS

Boxing =/= Lightsaber Training

The difference with you and Dooku is you Training Middle weights (I'd assume) Middleweights have a different training regime from say Flyweights or Heavyweights because of their body types, A Heavyweight can't throw 200+ Punch's per round like the lighter weights can because of their bodies limit them to around 60 or so. Thus different types of physiques different types of training, different instructor for each class. With Lightsaber training everyone is pretty much physically equal, and with the aid of the force can adjust to any physical limits, Everyone getting the same training = a hole in your logic as in boxing every fighter has a different training regime. I don't know maybe I'm just rambling...

True with the boxing, but lightsaber fighting is much like that. Makashi is a set of precise movements that rely on agility, while Djem So, relies on very heavy swigs as shown by Anakin, Form 3 relies on patience and endurance, wating for the right moment to strike, etc., ect.

Lightsaber forms are very much different like boxing forms are. They take varying degrees of strength, patience, and agility. So, that kinda does destroy your argument.

I doubt that Dooku knows all of the forms. For one, he calls Ataru ridiculous. I doubt someone as prideful as Dooku would take time to learn something that he calls ridiculous. However, he did show GG what he could expect from several different Jedi, which I think shows that he knows a little bit of each form with the possible exception of Juyo. The reason for this is because Form Six, which he problably knows pretty well like most other Jedi of his time, uses bits and pieces of his each form with the exception of Juyo and Makashi. So the only forms I think that Dooku knows are Shii Cho, Form Six (can't remember it's name), and Makashi. And the only one that he's probably mastered is Makashi. That's all he needs.

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
True with the boxing, but lightsaber fighting is much like that. Makashi is a set of precise movements that rely on agility, while Djem So, relies on very heavy swigs as shown by Anakin, Form 3 relies on patience and endurance, wating for the right moment to strike, etc., ect.

Lightsaber forms are very much different like boxing forms are. They take varying degrees of strength, patience, and agility. So, that kinda does destroy your argument.


But those movements don't go hand in hand with users body type like boxing does, so its very able for Dooku to know and trian other people in different forms since with the aid of the force your own physical limits no longer matter. Its the same how Dooku can mimic Vaapad, Ataru and the other forms of the masters despite him being a 80+ year old man. That were your analogy fails.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
But those movements don't go hand in hand with users body type like boxing does, so its very able for Dooku to know and trian other people in different forms since with the aid of the force your own physical limits no longer matter. Its the same how Dooku can mimic Vaapad, Ataru and the other forms of the masters despite him being a 80+ year old man. That were your analogy fails.

Of course it's possible for him to teach other people the basics of the forms; I can teach the basics of heavyweights. And the force enhancement won't last forever; that's where he fails.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
1.) Dooku knows Shii-Cho. Why? Because every Jedi is taught Shii-Cho.

So does everyone. They know the basics.



Where the fvck did you get this bullshit?



Obi used Soresu. Did Jinn teach him? NO.



I can say Muhammad Ali is the greatest heavyweight boxer ever. Does that make a master of heavyweight boxing? NO.



And you still haven't proven BM's need to know every form. Nice.



You THINK wth no logic. You still haven't proven Battlemaster's know all forms with a reliable source.



Anakin used two sabers in AoTC. Does that mean he knows Jar'Kai? NO.



no, not even close.

Yep. Dooku knows this form.



Well it pretty much obvious. As Younglings and Padawans and such, Jedi have to go through some training of Soresu. While Shii-Cho or their own form has defensive moves, Soresu needs to be learned so a Jedi can learn the art of defending.

In addition, let's take another Battlemaster: Cin Drallig. Dooku has stated to Grievous Jedi who could kill him, including Drallig. Grievous has been programmed with Jedi lightsaber moves and knows literally every countermove, which is why he gave Windu a good fight on the mag-lev train. If Cin Drallig can defeat Grievous, he'll probably use Soresu. Why, because Grievous can't compete it's simplicity. Otherwise, he can definately match Drallig with Jar'Kai as he is programmed with its moves.

If Drallig knows Soresu since he's BM, then Dooku does to. Dooku knows Soresu.



You're are stupid. Qui-Gon Jinn taught Obi-Wan Ataru. After the Phantom Menace, Obi-Wan then switched moves. Dooku knows Ataru because he taught his apprentice that.



Will you stop relating to real life? Dooku was Battlemaster. He needs to teach students how to use Shien if they ask for it. Otherwise, what's his point if he says, "Sorry. I only teach Ataru, Shii-Cho, Jar'Kai." No, he knows the form. Dooku knows Shien.



You don't know how to reply. What has your given statement have to do with anything I said before that. Dooku knows Niman, period.



What do you think Jar'Kai is? It's the art of using two sabers. Anakin was using Jar'Kai applied with elements of Ataru.



Wookiepedia and Wikipedia, who analizes and knows MUCH MORE ABOUT SW than you my friend! In addition, LOE and several other sources.

You're not going to get a quote from Lucas saying "BM's know all forms."

You have to think about logically and sensibly say they know it, otherwise it doesn't work out.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Yep. Dooku knows this form.


Well it pretty much obvious. As Younglings and Padawans and such, Jedi have to go through some training of Soresu. While Shii-Cho or their own form has defensive moves, Soresu needs to be learned so a Jedi can learn the art of defending.

In addition, let's take another Battlemaster: Cin Drallig. Dooku has stated to Grievous Jedi who could kill him, including Drallig. Grievous has been programmed with Jedi lightsaber moves and knows literally every countermove, which is why he gave Windu a good fight on the mag-lev train. If Cin Drallig can defeat Grievous, he'll probably use Soresu. Why, because Grievous can't compete it's simplicity. Otherwise, he can definately match Drallig with Jar'Kai as he is programmed with its moves.

No, they have Niman for that.



It says NOWHERE Drallig knows it because he's BM.





It's either "You're stupid" or "You are stupid".

Where does it say Dooku trained Jinn? Nowhere? Then please stop.



No. Real life logic counts, you idiot. No, you still haven't provided a reliable source for that, so it's null and void.



I just used that as a freepost to take a shot at the unproven cornerstone of your argument.

What do you think Jar'Kai is? It's the art of using two sabers. Anakin was using Jar'Kai applied with elements of Ataru.

Jar'Kari is a way of fighting with two sabers. And where the hell do you come up with this? "He used elemenys of Ataru". Where does it say ANYWHERE he dd?




You're not going to get a quote from Lucas saying "BM's know all forms."

You have to think about logically and sensibly say they know it, otherwise it doesn't work out.

Don't call me friend. My creepy Social Studies teacher did that in elementary. No, it actually doesn't. Let me give you a lesson wikipedia:

IF THEY LIST NO SOURCES, IT IS NOT RELIABLE.

It says straight out that Dooku was Qui Gon's Master...

Hey guess what, you still don't have any proof that Dooku mastered 7 forms. You hardly have anything on him knowing 2-3.. Stop wasting text kids.

Why is 'mastering all the forms' conclusive to victory?

Fine. Dooku was, however "Unequalled in a classical form of lightsaber combat," and One of the "Most powerful practitioners" in the ways of the force. He has a few decades experience on Kas'Im. He learned from the (two) best in both the light and dark sides of the force and I don't see him losing.

What is this "Oh he's older with more experience he'll win". 800 years of experience didn't help Yoda beat Sidious.

It helped Dooku beat Anakin, Obi Wan (x2) Mace, Asajj, Sora, etc. It might help.

Force skill deteriation? I would think that the order grows and learns from past masters.
The Jedi are careful to resist the lure of the dark side, but Masters with self-control and a mastery of themselves become very powerful.

If Kas'Im wins, guys, he's not gonna pwn Dooku. If you truly think that, then such a thought is sincerely baseless.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
From Wookiepedia, "Jedi learned elements of each form, though few ever mastered all of them. "

And this helps your argument that Dooku master all forms how?



Cool opinion. I really don't care.


You spelled "idiot" wrong. And, again, where does it say that Cin learned all 7 forms because he was BM?




And this helps your argument how?



It is not the "art". It is a WAY of wielding two sabers.



Sorry. I meant where does it say Dooku trained Jinn in Ataru.

Wow, you basically repeat the same thing don't you? I have given countless evidence to prove Battlemasters know all forms. I have said millions of times that Wookie, Wiki, LOE, and other sources show he knows all forms and so does Dooku because they were both BMs.
Now you keep saying "how does this help you.."

Read your previous posts, I have just given a long chain saying why and how BM's know all forms. You should give up. Unless you're expecting a direct quote from Lucas, you have to expect that BM's know all forms because all your arguments have been is "Prove it. Prove it". Which I have done.

You're a waste of my time.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Wow, you basically repeat the same thing don't you? I have given countless evidence to prove Battlemasters know all forms. I have said millions of times that Wookie, Wiki, LOE, and other sources show he knows all forms and so does Dooku because they were both BMs.
Now you keep saying "how does this help you.."

Read your previous posts, I have just given a long chain saying why and how BM's know all forms. You should give up. Unless you're expecting a direct quote from Lucas, you have to expect that BM's know all forms because all your arguments have been is "Prove it. Prove it". Which I have done.

You're a waste of my time.

You haven't proven it.

I can say it says in BoD Kas'im murders everyone in the PT. Are you going to trust me without evidence? No. Unless you can provide reliable evidence, I'm not believing you.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Wow, you basically repeat the same thing don't you? I have given countless evidence to prove Battlemasters know all forms. I have said millions of times that Wookie, Wiki, LOE, and other sources show he knows all forms and so does Dooku because they were both BMs.
Now you keep saying "how does this help you.."

Read your previous posts, I have just given a long chain saying why and how BM's know all forms. You should give up. Unless you're expecting a direct quote from Lucas, you have to expect that BM's know all forms because all your arguments have been is "Prove it. Prove it". Which I have done.

You're a waste of my time.

Ahem. I don't like repeating myself, so try to argue against me this time. Thanks.

I doubt that Dooku knows all of the forms. For one, he calls Ataru ridiculous. I doubt someone as prideful as Dooku would take time to learn something that he calls ridiculous. However, he did show GG what he could expect from several different Jedi, which I think shows that he knows a little bit of each form with the possible exception of Juyo. The reason for this is because Form Six, which he problably knows pretty well like most other Jedi of his time, uses bits and pieces of his each form with the exception of Juyo and Makashi. So the only forms I think that Dooku knows are Shii Cho, Form Six (can't remember it's name), and Makashi. And the only one that he's probably mastered is Makashi. That's all he needs.

There is no reason to believe that he knows all seven, nor has much less mastered them.

I'm saying that Battlemasters know all forms, so I have the liberty of using Cin Drallig and Dooku. Since both were Battlemasters, they should know the same forms, because they both taught Jedi during the same period.

1.) Dooku and Cin Drallig know Shii-Cho. Every Jedi knows this form.

2.) Dooku knows Makashi. Cin Drallig probably knows elements of this as he could have instructed individuals such as Tholme or Shaak Ti, who use this form.

3.) Cin Drallig knows Soresu. I have given a line from ROTS novelization where Obi-Wan remarks about Cin Drallig, "he was my lightsaber instructor". Since Obi-Wan needed an original source to being Soresu training, Cin Drallig is the one. And Dooku knows Soresu as well. Since Cin knows Soresu, Dooku probably does as well. Also, Wookiepedia says Jedi learn elements of every form, and Dooku as Battlemaster teaches this (since it's his job).

4.) Cin Drallig and Dooku know Ataru. Dooku taught Qui-Gon Jinn, who was an Ataru user. Master teaches apprentice, thus Dooku knows Ataru (though he considers it ridiculous). Cin Drallig knows Ataru because Yoda personally taught Drallig and Yoda was an Ataru user. Also, as lightsaber instructor there are many Ataru using Jedi (like Quinlan Vos) who need an instructor to refine their techniques.

5.) Dooku knows Shien because he says there hasn't been a better Djem So/Shien user than Anakin Skywalker. Dooku, being the Battlemaster, has taught hundreds of Jedi different forms. Apparently, he must have seen dozens of Shien using Jedi, and he knows none have reached the level of Anakin Skywalker.

6.) Dooku and Cin know Niman. That's pretty simple as most of the Order knows this form.

7.) Dooku and Cin know Juyo, not VAPAAD. Juyo is an incomplete form thus they don't openly try to teach it. Every since the Jedi Civil War, Juyo has been in use (people like Zez-Kai Ell used it). Obviously, as Battlemaster they need to know it, but they don't teach it. And if they know every other form, how do they not know Juyo?

8.) Dooku and Cin know Jar'Kai. Dooku is seen using two sabers in pictures and stuff. Also, Cin's apprentice Sara Keto uses two sabers. Thus they know Jar'Kai.

Like I said before, it makes no sense why a Battlemaster knows only two or three forms but nothing else. Jedi need lightsaber instructors who know every form otherwise Jedi are restricted. Every Jedi needs an instructor to work with them, and that is the job of Battlemasters.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
I'm saying that Battlemasters know all forms, so I have the liberty of using Cin Drallig and Dooku. Since both were Battlemasters, they should know the same forms, because they both taught Jedi during the same period.

No, no, no. By your logic, since Sadow can blow up a planet, every single Sith Lord can. Not the case.



Yes, they know the basics of the form.



Point?



No, there is no proof Dooku knows Soresu. Just because Cin does, doesn't mean he does. Jedi learn elements of each from through Niman, Prodigal.



Not necessarily. T'ra Saa was Mace's master, but Mace learned Juyo instead of Niman like his master. Obi-Wan trained Anakin, but Anakin practiced Djem-So instead of Soresu or Ataru. So really, that point is moot.



I'll use the same argument before. I can say Muhammad Ali is the greatest heavyweight boxer. Does that mean I'm an expert heavyweight boxer? No.



I agree with this, but say he most likely didn't master it.



Maybe because it's illogical to use it? If the from is broken, why try to use it, Prodigal?



No. Jar'Kai, like I've said before, is WAY to fight with two sabers.



No, it doesn't make any sense. If you're trying to be good at something, why not set your mind to it? Why master all of them if you're going to use one? They have multiple lightsaber instructors to cater to different questions, Prodigal.

I thought I told you RocasAtoll, you're a waste of my time. All you say is the same crap over and over again. My argument is against Glentract. But for the sake of being polite, here I go again ....




WTF? Cin and Dooku are Battlemasters of the SAME PERIOD. I don't see how you logic works. If you were saying something like Revan used Lightning, so Malak should to, then that could be credible.



Again, Cin knows Soresu. I have proved this already when I wrote how he knows Soresu. Obi-Wan himself said so. Stop writing crap.



Actually, Obi-Wan and Anakin somewhat learned together. They both started over in a way with the same form, Ataru. Only after AOTC do they truly master their own form.




Shien is a common form in the PT Era. Are you saying BM's don't know it?



Actually, there is only one Battlemaster, who knows all forms and teaches elements of each form to a Jedi who wishes to learn it.


Again, Battlemasters need to use multiple forms, not just Ataru, Soresu, Niman, or Shii-Cho. ALL, otherwise the Jedi system doesn't work. While the PT Era has diminished in terms of the Force, their saber strength has been maximized. Why would they want to limit the forms BM's used. The Jedi have holocrons of Juyo, why can't they hav Battlemasters use it? And who do you think Mace Windu began to train with when he first started using Juyo, the battlemaster.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
WTF? Cin and Dooku are Battlemasters of the SAME PERIOD. I don't see how you logic works. If you were saying something like Revan used Lightning, so Malak should to, then that could be credible.

Because Naga blew up a star Kressh should be able to?

Better analogy?



Backtrack; I never said Cin didn't know Soresu. Don't put words in my mouth. I said DOOKU doesn't know Soresu. Understand now?



What the fvck is this bs? Where does it say ANYWHERE Anakin learned Ataru? Nowhere? Then shut up.




I'm saying your logic is false.



Actually, this is completely unfounded. Where does it say the Battlmaster is the only lightsaber instructor? Nowhere? Shut up.




Where is your proof they do, or logic? Nowhere? Then please be quiet. You still haven't provided a reliable source that says BM's know all forms.

Dooku and Cin are both battlemasters of the same period. They'll know the same forms.




Wookie, and in the ROTS novelization Anakin uses Ataru till he switches.




Can you name anywhere it says there are more than 1 bm? In the NJO, thre is one BM (kyle) and in CW ther is 1 bm (Cin), so why don't you shut up.



You're right, I haven't, all I have done is given four pages of material proving that Bm's know all forms using former BM's and sensible reasoning. WOW, you are foolish my friend.

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
Because Naga blew up a star Kressh should be able to?

Actually, the answer to that question is: yes. And quite easily, too, I might add given the fact that weaklings Aleema and Crado were able to replicate Sadow's feat using the same technology (Sadow's ship) Sadow used to cause solar manipulations to the Dena rii Nova, except their usage was more devastating as it caused a chain reaction.

Horrible analogy to use, considering Sadow by himself can't even cause solar manipulations unless he uses his ship's weapon.