Kas'im versus Yoda

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King Adas
1. Lightsaber battle, takes place in the arena on Geonosis. Only passive use of the force and self inflicting use of the force allowed.

2. All out battle, same location.

Darth Sexy
I would have to give it to Kas'im. We know Yoda mastered the 7 forms of lightsaber combat, but there's no evidence of him mastering the double blade, and Jar'kai, so he wins.

King Adas
I myself would like to see some proof that Yoda mastered all 7. Source, quote and specifics please. Also, make the context clear.

Darth Subjekt
Star Wars Insider #62: Lightsaber Combat Forms.

King Adas
Subject, you haven't even read it, that's just a guess. Now until at least a quote can be supplied, and it can be confirmed by another party, I'm not accepting it.

Darth Sexy
You not accepting it doesn't make it any less true.

darthsith19
Yoda likely knows all the forums, what with his 850+ years of Jedi training, but whether he mastered all of them or not is questionable, as far as I know.

Darth Subjekt
Its a source. Doesn't matter that I haven't read it. I haven't seen Superman returns, doesn't mean I'm guessing that Clark Kent is in it. How bout you provide something saying that he doesn't know all 7 forms? Can't do it can you. I gave you a valid source, if you don't believe it, research it and find out. I haven't read the VD, but i know it says that Vader cant produce or repel Lightning with his mech hands...accept it.

xxXAcStylesXxx
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I would have to give it to Kas'im. We know Yoda mastered the 7 forms of lightsaber combat, but there's no evidence of him mastering the double blade, and Jar'kai, so he wins.

Stop with the Kas'im dick riding

What stupid logic. By your in genius logic Anakin shouldn't have moped the floor with Cin Darling who mastered 7 forms when Anakin only mastered about 2. The "he didn't master this form" logic is BS.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Stop with the Kas'im dick riding

What stupid logic. By your in genius logic Anakin shouldn't have moped the floor with Cin Darling who mastered 7 forms when Anakin only mastered about 2. The "he didn't master this form" logic is BS.


1. He mastered all forms
2. He was the perfect warrior
3. He was the best duelist in the new sith order...
4. Shut up

xxXAcStylesXxx
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
1. He mastered all forms
2. He was the perfect warrior
3. He was the best duelist in the new sith order...
4. Shut up


Cin Darling was all those except the best duelist of his respective order since there were more powerful people like Anakin, Dooku, Yoda around. No I wont shut because you want to give the character a hand job, Best duelist of the New Sith Order? Big Whoop, he was still below Kaan, and really the New Sith Order, the same order that promoted students to Sith Lords after months of training and just to "even numbers out" with the Jedi, as Bane said the darkside was spread to thin, these guys died like fodder and the majority of them sucked complete ass, being the the big fish in a small pond is nothing compared to the ocean of powerful force users in the PT, KOTOR, NJO. And really that alone does not compare him to Yoda the "Supreme avatar of light, greatest foe the darkness has ever know"

King Adas
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Its a source. Doesn't matter that I haven't read it. I haven't seen Superman returns, doesn't mean I'm guessing that Clark Kent is in it. How bout you provide something saying that he doesn't know all 7 forms? Can't do it can you. I gave you a valid source, if you don't believe it, research it and find out. I haven't read the VD, but i know it says that Vader cant produce or repel Lightning with his mech hands...accept it.

The point is, providing a source is not enough. Provide a quote, page number, put the quote in context, and then maybe I'll believe you.

King Adas
Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Cin Darling was all those except the best duelist of his respective order since there were more powerful people like Anakin, Dooku, Yoda around. No I wont shut because you want to give the character a hand job, Best duelist of the New Sith Order? Big Whoop, he was still below Kaan, and really the New Sith Order, the same order that promoted students to Sith Lords after months of training and just to "even numbers out" with the Jedi, as Bane said the darkside was spread to thin, these guys died like fodder and the majority of them sucked complete ass, being the the big fish in a small pond is nothing compared to the ocean of powerful force users in the PT, KOTOR, NJO. And really that alone does not compare him to Yoda the "Supreme avatar of light, greatest foe the darkness has ever know"

Since when did Cin Drallig master all seven forms? Proof?

Escape81
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
1. He mastered all forms
2. He was the perfect warrior
3. He was the best duelist in the new sith order...
4. Shut up

You can do better, dude.

If I remember correctly, Drallig did master all seven forms. He at least had considerable knowledge of each, as he was the Jedi Order's chief lightsaber instructor (replacing Count Dooku), and yet he was beaten by Anakin - with one hand - while Anakin had his other hand wrapped around a Jedi's throat.

Mastering all seven doesn't exactly equate to sheer uberness, though it should on paper.

If Kas'Im was the perfect warrior, he wouldn't have died.

Anyways, Kas'Im doesn't seem to be able to contend with someone of Yoda's speed and agility - nor with Yoda's obviously superior Force powers.

Kas'Im might prove to be a challenge for the first round, but he goes down, hard, in the second, methinks.

Though, what methinks could be calculated as incorrect.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Escape81
You can do better, dude.


ok and then you have Yoda who DID master all 7. So what are you getting at? We haven't seen any fighter in the SW universe that has mastered as much in lightsaber combat as Kas'im.


Perfect warrior has nothing to do with being killed by the force. Perfect warrior means hand to hand combat or in this case, lightsabers. And I'm not saying he's the best just because of the 7 forms. He's the best because he mastered more than Yoda, and was called the best.


How do you know? He and Bane demonstrated force speed during their battles on Korriban, so he HAS.


In a force fight I would say it could go either way Escape, but in a saber fight, there's just too much on Kas'im to NOT think he would beat Dooku.

King Adas
Since when did the chief saber instructor have to know all forms, just multiple ones I thought, not necessarily all.

Escape81
Curious, DS, how you'd agree that Yoda is the most powerful Jedi ever, and yet Kas'Im apparently can defeat him in all instances.



Read my statements again. Cin Drallig mastered all of the lightsaber forms, and yet, was defeated by Anakin with stupendous ease - while Anakin was busy killing another Jedi Knight.

Kas'Im mastering all seven lightsaber forms - or Yoda, for that matter - doesn't necessarily mean anything - when they confront a certain Force user.



Interesting. I always operated under the assumption that a "warrior" would be described as someone who uses all aspects of the Force (as well as their mind) to defeat an enemy. This would include Force attacks.

But, to each his own.



No need to get so defensive, DS.

But, I'm curious if Kas'Im has enough speed to (unarmed) evade three or four other extremely proficient duelists (one of which being Depa Billaba - who is equal to Mace in sheer swordsmanship) to the point where they could not even get close to him.

Yoda has done this.



Aren't we discussing Yoda?

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Escape81
Curious, DS, how you'd agree that Yoda is the most powerful Jedi ever, and yet Kas'Im apparently can defeat him in all instances.
Notice how I NEVER said Kas'im would defeat Yoda in force combat. I believe he CAN defeat Yoda in saber combat because of his extensive saber knowledge that surpasses Yoda's, and how he was described.





He's described as the perfect warrior after his lightsaber feats are described, so the "perfect warrior" has to do with lightsaber combat according to the author.




Where did I get defensive? You didn't say anything that would make me get defensive.


like I said man, he has demonstrated force speed in a saber duel, so it's possible he could do this as well.



Aren't we discussing Yoda?

jollyjim311
Kas'Im gets dicked in every aspect of this fight. Yoda is out of his league. Kas'Im really isn't that good. He has done nothing, and, has one exaggerated quote to his name. Yoda is the Jedi. No way Kas'Im can beat him.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by jollyjim311
Kas'Im gets dicked in every aspect of this fight. Yoda is out of his league. Kas'Im really isn't that good. He has done nothing, and, has one exaggerated quote to his name. Yoda is the Jedi. No way Kas'Im can beat him.


wow, I'm glad someone read POD and threw facts into this argument. If you notice the two errors I made in that statement, I'll give you a cookie. stick out tongue

jollyjim311
I did read it, and, what do you want me to say? That we've never seen Kas'Im outduel and kill anyone? That Kas'Im has only shown us a force push? He did kill a rancor, once, so, he's God on these forums now. He has one hyperbole to his name. Yoda is mentioned to be the most powerful Jedi, and judging from what we've seen from him, that seems about right. Kas'Im won't win this.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by jollyjim311
I did read it, and, what do you want me to say? That we've never seen Kas'Im outduel and kill anyone? That Kas'Im has only shown us a force push? He did kill a rancor, once, so, he's God on these forums now. He has one hyperbole to his name. Yoda is mentioned to be the most powerful Jedi, and judging from what we've seen from him, that seems about right. Kas'Im won't win this.


For the millionth time.

1. Described as the perfect warrior
2. Described as possibly the greatest swordsman ever
3. Described as the best swordsman of the era
4. Mastered all 7 forms of lightsaber combat, the jar'kai style, and the double bladed lightsaber.
As you can see, i'm talking about a lightsaber duel in which I think Kas'im stands a VERY good chance, if not a victory.

Rampant ox
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
1. Described as the perfect warrior

Does being a perfect warrior make you invincible? No. Does this auotmatically mean you cant be beaten? No. While it is a mighty fine credential it doesnt make him better than Yoda. The same Yoda who is described as the strongest foe the dark side has ever encountered or some sh*t like that.



So was Yoda. Point moot.



So was Yoda. Point moot.



As said before, knowing all forms doesnt ensure victory. Cin Drallig is the perfect example of this. Not saying that knowing all 7 wont help - it just doesnt make him uber like you are making it out to be.

Though that is just my two cents, posted purely because im bored.

jollyjim311
I... agree...with Rampant?!


Well, he's right.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Rampant ox
Does being a perfect warrior make you invincible? No. Does this auotmatically mean you cant be beaten? No. While it is a mighty fine credential it doesnt make him better than Yoda. The same Yoda who is described as the strongest foe the dark side has ever encountered or some sh*t like that.
And this has what to do with saber combat? OH right, nothing. I was referring ONLY to saber combat where Kas'im has a VERY good chance.



And Yoda is an example of when knowing all 7 forms makes you a master swordsman, what's your point?

King Adas
Actually there is no proof that anyone other than Kas'Im mastered all seven forms, let alone the saberstaff and jar'kai style as well.

Now Kas'im definitely has this.

'Within the first few passes Bane knew he couldn't win. Kas'Im had trained his entire life for this moment. After years of study, he'd mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber. Then he'd honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. Maybe the greatest swordsman ever. Bane was no match for him.' - Pod, Pg. 244.

Now this passage makes it pretty clear that noone had mastered the art of the saber to such a high degree like Kas'im had.

'He knocked once softly, careful not to wake the others. Before he could knock a second time, the door swung open to reveal the Twilek... The Blademaster's highly tuned reflexes had reacted to the first knock so quickly that he had already crossed the room and opened the door by the time the second rap came.' - PoD, Pg. 144.

This passage shows just how quick his reflexes really are.

'Bane hung his head and lowered his blade in an admission of defeat. The last pass he had held Kas'im off, but with each swing of his saber he and grown a microsecond slower. Fatigue was setting in. Even the force couldn't keep his muscles fresh forever, and the seemingly endless duel had finally taken too great a toll. The Blademaster, on the other hand, had lost almost none of his speed or sharpness' - PoD, Pg. 159.

This passage makes it clear that physically, Kas'im >>>>> Bane, and Bane was in very good physical condition himself, having spent most of his early life working on the gruelling mines of Apatros.

I think it's pretty safe to say that Kas'im's superior mastery of the saber and incredible physical condition would put him above Yoda.

King Adas
Originally posted by jollyjim311
I did read it, and, what do you want me to say? That we've never seen Kas'Im outduel and kill anyone? That Kas'Im has only shown us a force push? He did kill a rancor, once, so, he's God on these forums now. He has one hyperbole to his name. Yoda is mentioned to be the most powerful Jedi, and judging from what we've seen from him, that seems about right. Kas'Im won't win this.

Clearly you missed him creating a force shield that was able to redirect a wave of energy that was able to collapse the entire Rakatan temple. No, Kas'im's pretty much the most powerful sith in the BoD, with the exception of Bane, he is incredible.

jollyjim311
"Their clash transcended the personal; when new lightning blazed, it was not Palpatine burning Yoda with his hate, it was the Lord of all Sith scorching the Master of all Jedi into a smoldering huddle of clothing and green flesh. "
"It did not come from a flash of lightning or slash of energy blade, though there were these in plenty; it did not come from a flying kick or a surgically precise punch, though these were traded, too.
It came as the battle shifted from the holding office to the great Chancellor's Podium; it came as the hydraulic lift beneath the Podium raised it on its tower of durasteel a hundred meters and more, so that it became a laserpoint of battle flaring at the focus of the vast emptiness of the Senate Arena; it came as the Force and the podium's controls ripped delegation pods free of the curving walls and made of them hammers, battering rams, catapult stones crashing and crushing against each other in a rolling thunder-roar that echoed the Senate's cheers for the galaxy's new Emperor.
It came when the avatar of light resolved into the lineage of the Jedi; when the lineage of the Jedi refined into one single Jedi.
It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark.
In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.
Finally, he saw the truth.
This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known . . .
just-
didn't-
have it.
He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.
He had lost before he was born.
The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.
They had become new. "

Yoda is the most powerful Jedi up until that point. One quote that may have been Bane's unsupported opinion won't change the fact that Yoda will whoop up on a weaker version of the Sith.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by jollyjim311
"Their clash transcended the personal; when new lightning blazed, it was not Palpatine burning Yoda with his hate, it was the Lord of all Sith scorching the Master of all Jedi into a smoldering huddle of clothing and green flesh. "
"It did not come from a flash of lightning or slash of energy blade, though there were these in plenty; it did not come from a flying kick or a surgically precise punch, though these were traded, too.
It came as the battle shifted from the holding office to the great Chancellor's Podium; it came as the hydraulic lift beneath the Podium raised it on its tower of durasteel a hundred meters and more, so that it became a laserpoint of battle flaring at the focus of the vast emptiness of the Senate Arena; it came as the Force and the podium's controls ripped delegation pods free of the curving walls and made of them hammers, battering rams, catapult stones crashing and crushing against each other in a rolling thunder-roar that echoed the Senate's cheers for the galaxy's new Emperor.
It came when the avatar of light resolved into the lineage of the Jedi; when the lineage of the Jedi refined into one single Jedi.
It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark.
In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.
Finally, he saw the truth.
This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known . . .
just-
didn't-
have it.
He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.
He had lost before he was born.
The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.
They had become new. "

Yoda is the most powerful Jedi up until that point. One quote that may have been Bane's unsupported opinion won't change the fact that Yoda will whoop up on a weaker version of the Sith.

Weaker version of the sith? I'm glad you bring no facts nor arguments into this debate.

xxXAcStylesXxx
Stop giving this guy hand jobs, BEATING A SITH WHO'S ONLY BEEN TRAINING FOR MONTHS IS NOT IMPRESSIVE. You guys are on this "teh more forms you know the besteset you are!" Bull shit, when its not true, look at Anakin who was quite possible the best duelist ever and all he mastered was Djem So, look at Luke who has his own custom style. Both would shit on this loser who we know about 3 things about.

And if Kas'im is teh uber 11sith why is he not the leader of the brotherhood, why does he like so many others hero worship Kaan, why is he Kaans lackey? And seriously the NSO SUCKED ASS, being the strongest in them is NOT a big feat, especially when you have people like Revan who was stated to have more Sith knowledge ALONE then the ENTIRE Korriban Archives. Big Fish Small Pond.

All I hear is this Perfect Warrior Hyperbolic bullshit, what has Kas'im really done?

Beat Bane.

Mastered 7 forms

Killed a Rancor.


And you seriously expect us to believe with that joke of a list of accomplishments he can beat YODA, give me a ****ing break. Yoda was the greatest for the darkness had EVER known, he would take a large shit on Kas'ims chest.

Blax X
I concur.

no expression

King Adas
I already defeated this point in other thread Styles, why are you still bringing it up?
The points is, the BoD didn't have the same philosophy as the other sith order, it wasn't where 'the strongest rule' (proof of this is where Quordis was the master of the Korriban academy, Kas'im was only a master, yet Kas'im would pwn Quordis), technically everyone in the BoD was equal, and Kaan naturally was a good leader due to his ability to inspire others.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Stop giving this guy hand jobs, BEATING A SITH WHO'S ONLY BEEN TRAINING FOR MONTHS IS NOT IMPRESSIVE. You guys are on this "teh more forms you know the besteset you are!" Bull shit, when its not true, look at Anakin who was quite possible the best duelist ever and all he mastered was Djem So, look at Luke who has his own custom style. Both would shit on this loser who we know about 3 things about.

And if Kas'im is teh uber 11sith why is he not the leader of the brotherhood, why does he like so many others hero worship Kaan, why is he Kaans lackey? And seriously the NSO SUCKED ASS, being the strongest in them is NOT a big feat, especially when you have people like Revan who was stated to have more Sith knowledge ALONE then the ENTIRE Korriban Archives. Big Fish Small Pond.

All I hear is this Perfect Warrior Hyperbolic bullshit, what has Kas'im really done?

Beat Bane.

Mastered 7 forms

Killed a Rancor.


And you seriously expect us to believe with that joke of a list of accomplishments he can beat YODA, give me a ****ing break. Yoda was the greatest for the darkness had EVER known, he would take a large shit on Kas'ims chest.

Do you even understand what a hyperbole is? I guess not. Oh and I forgot, Yoda being "The strongest foe darkness has ever known" equates to him in battle with ANYBODY. Oh wait, it doesn't. See THATS hyperbole. The author clearly explains that Kas'im is the greatest of the new sith order, the perfect warrior, mastered all 7 forms of combat, while Yoda didn't do it with Jar'kai or a double blade. Stop verbally fellating Yoda just because of 1 damn quote, that's not a logical argument.

Lightsnake
Kaan>Kas'im by a considerable margin with the Force, Kaan was the strongest for a reason, after all.

Oh, and for the record, that quote of Yoda's IS still canon and he's shown us far more than Kas'im.

Kas'im cannot defeat Yoda.

King Adas
What, there's no proof that Kaan was more powerful than Kas'im. His true talents lied in influencing others, Kas'im was far more martial.

And about the quote about Yoda, it's up to interpretation whether that statement was coming directly from the omniscient narrator, or whether it was the narrator indirectly voicing Yoda.

And I really don't see what's so special about Yoda, Kas'im's most likely imo better than him with a saber, and seeing as how Kas'im was able to defend against Bane's wave of force energy, I doubt Yoda can do anything to him with the force.

Lightsnake
There's no proof? He was the dark Lord of the Sith before HE declared them equal. Kaan was powerful and skilled, hence him, an ex-Jedi Master, taking over. The Kaan we see later, the paranoid, cringing Kaan, is not the charismatic, powerful Kaan of yesteryear, before Hoth defeated him.

And stop this 'up to interpretation,' Bullshit. It's not. It's direct, canon and approved.

Oh, and who's stronger with the Force? Yoda or Bane? Yoda can use the force to lift guns the size of houses and half a mountainside....and what's so special about Yoda? I dunno, his containing of the Dark Side, ability to take three Jedi masters at once, destroy armies...

Please, Sithari...

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Kaan>Kas'im by a considerable margin with the Force, Kaan was the strongest for a reason, after all.

Oh, and for the record, that quote of Yoda's IS still canon and he's shown us far more than Kas'im.

Kas'im cannot defeat Yoda.

nobody is arguing for Kas'im in force abiities. Yoda would stomp him in those. But that little quote doesn't make him more powerful than ANYONE, it just says he's the most powerful of the lightside until Luke. So it has NO bearing on this versus fight. Yoda for once is outclassed in a saber duel.

Lightsnake
Most powerful of the Lightside until Luke puts him above quite a few people...and I'd be amazed if Kas'im's saber abilities were on par with Yoda's, who was better than Windu and Dooku.

How does Kas'im outclass him? He doesn't. He has one duel to his name and while he's up there, he has NOT defeated armies, he has NOT outmatched three Jedi masters at once, Vaapad master included, he has NOT crushed Count Dooku in a duel...

There's nothing Kas'im can do to Yoda here

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Most powerful of the Lightside until Luke puts him above quite a few people...and I'd be amazed if Kas'im's saber abilities were on par with Yoda's, who was better than Windu and Dooku.
Once again lightsnake. Kas'im mastered all 7 forms, Yoda mastered all 7 forms. However Kas'im also mastered Jar'kai and double blade swordfighting. THATS how he outclasses Yoda.

Lightsnake
Which means what? How'll that give him the edge whatsoever? Last I checked, Yoda could stand against a Vaapad master, that could give him the edge...

King Adas
lol Ok, where's all this coming from? I never heard any of this.



Well it is, it contains all the elements of free indirect discourse.



Bane was able to destroy the Rakatan temple with one force attack, and very likely used TK to pull the moon closer to Onderon. Yoda's display of TK in AOTC and ROTS was pathetic in the relative scheme of things.



Could you please elaborate?



Shh, don't tell anyone.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Which means what? How'll that give him the edge whatsoever? Last I checked, Yoda could stand against a Vaapad master, that could give him the edge...

Ok wonderful, Yoda can stand up against a Vaapad master, and that guarantees victory how? Look at the facts. Yoda DIDNT defeat Sidious who was out of practice for 13 years. How is Yoda going to defeat someone who's trained his entire life with a saber and has more saber skills than him?

Lightsnake
Originally posted by King Adas
lol Ok, where's all this coming from? I never heard any of this.
Read up on the subject, perhaps



Well it is, it contains all the elements of free indirect discourse.
It contains elements of "I don't want to believe it, so it can't be." Really


Yet Young Yoda likely killed Bane and Yoda never exerted himself once in the movies.

Funny that.




Contained the Dark Side presence of planets on Dagobah and others
Destroyed droid armies on his own...
And others

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Ok wonderful, Yoda can stand up against a Vaapad master, and that guarantees victory how? Look at the facts. Yoda DIDNT defeat Sidious who was out of practice for 13 years. How is Yoda going to defeat someone who's trained his entire life with a saber and has more saber skills than him?

Lol.

Yoda's trained with a saber for 900 years. Shadowhunter shows he does so dilligently and completely. So, Yoda's ALSO trained with his entire life with a saber...how much longer is that? Since when does Kas'im have more saber skills? Has he efeated armies on his own? I think not...

and Yoda can defeat someone with skills Kas'im doesn't have, so? And Jedi at the temple mastered the use ofDBLs and Jar'KRai...you really think Yoda wouldn't have known how to deal with that?

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Ok wonderful, Yoda can stand up against a Vaapad master, and that guarantees victory how? Look at the facts. Yoda DIDNT defeat Sidious who was out of practice for 13 years. How is Yoda going to defeat someone who's trained his entire life with a saber and has more saber skills than him?

Lol.

Yoda's trained with a saber for 900 years. Shadowhunter shows he does so dilligently and completely. So, Yoda's ALSO trained with his entire life with a saber...how much longer is that? Since when does Kas'im have more saber skills? Has he efeated armies on his own? I think not...

and Yoda can defeat someone with skills Kas'im doesn't have, so? And Jedi at the temple mastered the use ofDBLs and Jar'KRai...you really think Yoda wouldn't have known how to deal with that?

King Adas
Could you at least give a source? None of this was in PoD, JVS, BOTS, or Darkness Shared.

Lightsnake
Dark Forces saga, the novelization of Jedi Knight,

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Lol.

Yoda's trained with a saber for 900 years. Shadowhunter shows he does so dilligently and completely. So, Yoda's ALSO trained with his entire life with a saber...how much longer is that? Since when does Kas'im have more saber skills? Has he efeated armies on his own? I think not...

and Yoda can defeat someone with skills Kas'im doesn't have, so? And Jedi at the temple mastered the use ofDBLs and Jar'KRai...you really think Yoda wouldn't have known how to deal with that?

Double post lightsnake.. And stop saying Kas'im doesn't have the skills. He has the jar'kai skills and Double bladed skills Yoda doesn't have.

Lightsnake
Which means jack as Bane didn't have DBL skills and managed to counter Kas'im completely there. And Vader was shown to counter a Jedi Brutes DBL skills...
Once more: OTher Jedi knew those skills. Think Yoda didn't practice with them?
Yoda's shown himself quite a bit faster and more skilled. Having an extra adaptation or two won't help Kas'im

King Adas
Substantiate this.



Source? How big were these 'armies', how did he do it?

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Which means jack as Bane didn't have DBL skills and managed to counter Kas'im completely there. And Vader was shown to counter a Jedi Brutes DBL skills...
Once more: OTher Jedi knew those skills. Think Yoda didn't practice with them?
Yoda's shown himself quite a bit faster and more skilled. Having an extra adaptation or two won't help Kas'im

I am NOT saying Yoda doesn't know them, I'm saying Kas'im mastered those techniques, while there's nothing to suggest Yoda did.

Lightsnake
Why would Yoda bother? You're saying that those will allow Kas'im to win when Yoda can likely defend himself well enough from them
Kas'im even said their main strengths were to confuse opponents

King Adas
Source for this, you do realise that the ROTS VG isn't canon?

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Why would Yoda bother? You're saying that those will allow Kas'im to win when Yoda can likely defend himself well enough from them
Kas'im even said their main strengths were to confuse opponents

I'm saying Kas'im has mastered more in the lightsaber arts than Yoda, which might give him the victory.

Lightsnake
Jedi Brutes are canon.

And in Purge, Vader is shown fighting Jastus Ferr, AKA a Jedi Brute.

Oh and:

Yoda confined the Dark Side energies on Dagobah: Thrawn Trilogy, Heart of Darkness, common SW knowledge

NEC confirms Yoda destroys a droid armies on his own. With his saber

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I'm saying Kas'im has mastered more in the lightsaber arts than Yoda, which might give him the victory.

Mastering an extra style when Yoda can likely defend against both won't be enough to put him above, though

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Mastering an extra style when Yoda can likely defend against both won't be enough to put him above, though

Ah so you say yoda can likely defend against these styles without proof. Yet Kas'im knows all the styles Yoda will throw at him and was SHOWN to use force speed in a duel, so Yoda has no advantage in a saber fight.

King Adas
I don't remember him fighting with a saberstaff.



tNEC is in-universe, and cannot be used as a source as the narrator's PoV is fallible.

Lightsnake
Wait, wait, wait...Yoda is able to move so fast against THREE masters at once, Vaapad master INCLUDED, that he barely seems to move at all....how do you think he moves? Force speed.

Oh, and last I checked: Yoda kept heavily in shape and ability. You really think a DBL and Jar'krai would surprise him? Even hinder him overmuch?

And Adas, if you're done being stupid: TNEC is well canon like any essential guide, tells the exact account of the battle- oh, wait, did Obi-wan not fight at Muunilist either?

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jastus_Farr

Albeit, Wiki, but in absence of a picture...

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Wait, wait, wait...Yoda is able to move so fast against THREE masters at once, Vaapad master INCLUDED, that he barely seems to move at all....how do you think he moves? Force speed.

Oh, and last I checked: Yoda kept heavily in shape and ability. You really think a DBL and Jar'krai would surprise him? Even hinder him overmuch?

And Adas, if you're done being stupid: TNEC is well canon like any essential guide, tells the exact account of the battle- oh, wait, did Obi-wan not fight at Muunilist either?

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jastus_Farr

Albeit, Wiki, but in absence of a picture...

You have still not made a case for Yoda. I've at least stated that Kas'im's saber knowledge is above Yoda's.

King Adas
The narrator of tNEC is fallible, ergo tNEC cannot be used as the sole source. Pretty simple concept.

Lightsnake
And that's making a case?

Once again: According to Kas'im, force mastery will aid your saber abilities.

Can KAs'im defeat armies on his own? Yoda can. Can Kas'im face down a Vaapad master and two other masters without trying? Yoda can

Lightsnake
Originally posted by King Adas
The narrator of tNEC is fallible, ergo tNEC cannot be used as the sole source. Pretty simple concept.

So, him telling exactly what happened in the battle can't be used?

Ok, fanboyism aside, it's damn valid there

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Lightsnake
And that's making a case?

Once again: According to Kas'im, force mastery will aid your saber abilities.

Can KAs'im defeat armies on his own? Yoda can. Can Kas'im face down a Vaapad master and two other masters without trying? Yoda can

And again, Yoda was not able to overcome Sidious, so what makes you think he will overcome someone better with a sword that has spent his whole life sword fighting?

Lightsnake
Stop throwing around this 'better' label for starters.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Stop throwing around this 'better' label for starters.

More experience, more knowledge of techniques=better.

King Adas
Mastery of the saber

Kas'im - mastered all 7 forms including Vaapad for the wielding of a single saber, saberstaff, and the dual sabers. He switches up between these giving him a unique style. He also may have possible mastered more such as the lightwhip, sabercane, saber fork etc. and kept it secret.

Yoda - Mastered Ataru, and most probably a few others considering he was at one time the order's chief lightsaber instructor.

Skill

Kas'im - Incredible physical condition, uncanny reflexes.

Yoda - So small that he wields Ataru in a unique way, and uses the force to augment his physical attributes to an incredible extent while dueling.

Force Mastery

Kas'im - Due to the fact that he redirected Bane's wave of force energy that as capable of collapsing the entire Rakatan temple, he is most likely very strong in the force. This would most likely benefit him in duels (augmenting physical attributes, reflexes, etc.); his incredible reflexes are testament to this. He is also able to utilise force speed while in a duel.

Yoda - Very strong in the force, his degree of augmenting his speed and agility while dueling is the highest we have ever seen in SW.

Experience

Kas'im - Spent decades mastering and refining the saber styles, taught and sparred with students at the academy on Korriban for about 5 years, prioritised practising on his saber skills (in other words, he made the most out of his time and practiced as much as he could on his skills, whereas Yoda would spend much time meditating on the force for example) and in terms of real life and death duels, he fought and defeated both Bane and his master.

Yoda - 900 years of experience (little spent on his lightsaber skills during his later years to be fair), consisting of sparring with his fellow jedi, teaching younglings, and in terms of real life battle situations, fought Count Dooku twice, fought Sidious and he was stated to have fought a few others.



I'd say logic points to Kas'im winning this.

Darth Sexy
one thing though, if it does say Kas'im mastered Vaapad which I don't think it doesn't, I need to open my book and check because I think it's Juyo.. Anyways if it does say it it's wrong, because Mace created and perfected Vaapad.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
More experience, more knowledge of techniques=better.
His knowledge is greater? His experience is greater? Lat I checked, Palp and Yoda were vigorous practioners their entire lives and had a much better knowledge base.

Once again, you throw your argument around as proof.



He masteed all seven. Legacy of the Jedi, kthx. Oh, and Kas'im didn't have a 'unique style,' he just used different ones. That's not unique.


So, Yoda>Kas'im here, thanks

Stronger than Yoda in the force? Dream on,

Now this is just being intentionally idiotic.

Kas'im EVEN SAID force mastery is linked to saber skills. Last I checked, Kas'im lost the fight by virtue of being crushed beneath rubble.

Could KAs'im defeat three Jedi Masters simultaneously without even looking like he was moving?

Kas'im goes down and goes down HARD. In an all out fight, he cannot win

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Lightsnake
His knowledge is greater? His experience is greater? Lat I checked, Palp and Yoda were vigorous practioners their entire lives and had a much better knowledge base.

Once again, you throw your argument around as proof.
At least I have something to argue for, you keep throwing around your quotes. Kas'im had greater saber knowledge than Yoda, that's all I'm arguing, is a lightsaber duel, nothing more. Don't argue with facts.




Once again nobody here is arguing anything BUT a lightsaber duel lightsnake, if you read the 2nd or third posts you'd understand that. Kas'im doesn't stand a chance in a force fight or an all out fight but he stands a VERY good chance in a saber fight.

jollyjim311
Mastery of the saber:
Kas'Im: Has all forms mastered (save Vaapad, of course), and uses patterns and sequences when fighting.
Yoda: 900 years of experience. Dodged 3 Jedi Masters with no saber, one of which was a Vaapad master. Trained Dooku. Took on Dooku, Sidious, and Mace has said than he is like a Padawan compared to Yoda (not necessarily just in reference to saber combat).

Skill:
Kas'Im- Great reflexes, strong, conditioned.
Yoda- Unique use of Ataru. A very offensive style, but he lacks no defence thanks to his size and precision.

Force Mastery:
Kas'Im- Lacking. Used a force push on Bane to little effect. Blocked a moderately powerful force push once, but was crushed by a Temple. What people fail to realize is that Temple was 4,000-5,000 years old, and, probably not that sturdy. A few solid kicks to the wall could probably have brought it down. Also, just because you can block it, doesn't mean you are even on par with the person who you block the attack from (See Obi Wan blocking Dooku's lightning).
Yoda- 900 years of practice with the second highest potential in the order (next to Anakin). Has actually done impressive things with the force (like stopped and thrown back that senate pod).He has a lot of EU credit too (like being a master of Battle meditation and such) 'Nuff said.

Experience:
Kas'Im- a few decades and instructing.
Yoda- 800+ years worth of instructing. Probably went on missions as all Jedi do. Clone Wars along with many other conflicts.

Oh yeah, and Yoda is the most powerful Jedi until Luke comes around.

Lightsnake
.....Don't argue with facts?

jollyjim311
No, not often.

Escape81
I can see Kas'Im giving Yoda a fight in sheer saber ability, but in an all out fight...? Yeah right.

xxXAcStylesXxx
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Do you even understand what a hyperbole is? I guess not. Oh and I forgot, Yoda being "The strongest foe darkness has ever known" equates to him in battle with ANYBODY. Oh wait, it doesn't. See THATS hyperbole. The author clearly explains that Kas'im is the greatest of the new sith order, the perfect warrior, mastered all 7 forms of combat, while Yoda didn't do it with Jar'kai or a double blade. Stop verbally fellating Yoda just because of 1 damn quote, that's not a logical argument.


That "Perfect Warrior" BS is pure hyperbole, and you now it, if he was the perfect warrior he wouldn't have
A. Dropped his guard to give a speech
B. Given a speech in the middle of a duel
C. Underestimated his opponent
D. Held back to the point it almost got him killed to show boat
E. Let his arrogance affect the way he fights.

Stop hyping Yoda because of 1 quote? You retard your doing the same thing to Kas'im with the "Teh greatest" quote he has. Its not a logical argument to try an prove an unknown with 1 duel under his belt and a exaggerated quote to say he could beat the most powerful Lightsider in the history of the Galaxy until Luke, with a plethora of EU and Movie material describing his uberness. STOP DICK RIDING.

I've already destroyed your arguments you posting the same things over and over wont change that, being the best in an order of scrubs is no feat worth speaking of, beating a fledgling Sith Lord with months of training under his belt as a force user is nothing to speak of, and his only feat worth mentioning mastering 7 forms is also not worth speaking of since even Bane with MONTHS of experience was able to beat his Double Blade and keep up with his Jar Kari. Yoda would shit on him.

Escape81
While I agree that Yoda would win, and probably easily - if Force powers are allowed - there's no need to get boastful.

Darth Sexy
For the millionth time guys, good thing I was talking about only a saber duel.. Sheesh.

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
one thing though, if it does say Kas'im mastered Vaapad which I don't think it doesn't, I need to open my book and check because I think it's Juyo.. Anyways if it does say it it's wrong, because Mace created and perfected Vaapad.

It said Vapaad, but it is believed to have been a typo by the author.

@LS
He masteed all seven. Legacy of the Jedi, kthx. Oh, and Kas'im didn't have a 'unique style,' he just used different ones. That's not unique.

Mastered all seven or had knowledge of all seven? There's a world of a difference.

So, Yoda>Kas'im here, thanks

Ooo, strong argument.

Stronger than Yoda in the force? Dream on,

He's no where near as strong as Yoda in the Force. However, he has shown an unparalled level of Force Defense that should be strong enough to protect him from any of Yoda's Force attacks as Yoda won't get to aggressive in that department.

Kas'im EVEN SAID force mastery is linked to saber skills. Last I checked, Kas'im lost the fight by virtue of being crushed beneath rubble.

Could KAs'im defeat three Jedi Masters simultaneously without even looking like he was moving?

Kas'im goes down and goes down HARD. In an all out fight, he cannot win

In the way that if you can't defend yourself against your opponents Force attacks you might as well not fight them. Kas'im has shown Force Defense to a high enough level to protect himself from anything Yoda WOULD through at him. Yoda perhaps COULD overwhelm him with a lot of Darkside powers that he may or may not know, but I'm sure you'll agree that he won't do that.

Could Yoda defeat 3 Jedi Masters at the same time either? It's unknown, as Yoda never ATTACKED any of them. I've been in a fair amount of fights and trust me, if you can go all defensive and protect yourself well against 3 guys. It doesn't mean you could take them down. And don't forget, it was only a demonstration.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
It said Vapaad, but it is believed to have been a typo by the author.

@LS
He masteed all seven. Legacy of the Jedi, kthx. Oh, and Kas'im didn't have a 'unique style,' he just used different ones. That's not unique.

Mastered all seven or had knowledge of all seven? There's a world of a difference.
Legacy of the Jedi says he 'mastered' the forms. He had to use Ataru for obvious reasons

Stronger argument than any pro- Kas'im one I've seen

Have you seen the same movies I did? Where Yoda flings Emperor Palpatine across the room?

Wow, Kas'im blocked an attack from someone weaker than Yoda!

Maybe Yoda'd just tear through his defenses, ever think of that? What was Kas'im's state when he blocked Bane's attack? Could it possibly be that he was flat on his back unable to move?


Wait, wait....Yoda defended himself against them flawessly without exerting himself and somehow they;d best him? And last I checked, Palpatine slaughtered three top Jedi masters at once.

Escape81
Depa Billaba was one of those Jedi, Glentract, and they were armed; Yoda wasn't.

RocasAtoll
Originally posted by Lightsnake

Stronger argument than any pro- Kas'im one I've seen

laughing out loud That was funny.



What? Yoda didn't fling him across the room. Don't exaggerate.



Has Yoda ever showed the ability to destroy a WHOLE FVCKING TEMPLE with one force attack? No?

No, he wouldn't. And since it never says in what position, we can assume he was standing.



If Yoda was attacking. Attacking leaves you open, trust me.

Lightsnake
Yoda has lifted up mountainsides and caused avalanches with minimum effort. Collapsing a structure two stories high won't be difficult

Escape81
Yoda rose to his feet, extended a hand, and Palpatine is blasted off his feet from one side of the room, flies across his desk, and is only stopped by his chair, which tips over.

He flung him across the room.

RocasAtoll
Ah! Sorry. I thought he meant during the scene in the Senate Chamber.

Darth Sexy
I've still yet to hear a compelling argument for Yoda>Kas'im in a lightsaber battle.

Lightsnake
Yoda being the best duelist in the fighting prime of the Jedi, being a supreme master of Ataru, having 900 years practice and experience, the ability to to blindside three Jedi masters, Depa Billaba included, without a saber...

What's Kas'im's? He mastered all the forms and styles and spent decades perfecting it? Sure, but knowing multiple styles isn't directly advantageous. With Kas'im's usual way of fighting, Bane, who only knew Form V was giving him a run for it

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yoda being the best duelist in the fighting prime of the Jedi, being a supreme master of Ataru, having 900 years practice and experience, the ability to to blindside three Jedi masters, Depa Billaba included, without a saber...

What's Kas'im's? He mastered all the forms and styles and spent decades perfecting it? Sure, but knowing multiple styles isn't directly advantageous. With Kas'im's usual way of fighting, Bane, who only knew Form V was giving him a run for it

Wow lightsnake you really want to go there don't you? I can EASILY counter your argument about Bane giving him a run for it. Think Anakin vs. Obiwan. Anakin was far superior to Obiwan but Obiwan knew his moves backwards and forwards. The exact same applies to Bane. And yet when Kas'im unleashed the Jar'kai style, Bane was screwed. Yoda can learn all the Ataru he wants, he's still outmatched in a saber duel.

Lightsnake
Hardly. Bane was a stranger to Jar'Krai, Yoda would not be. Bane had three years of training. Yoda had hundreds. Oh, and last I checked: Kas'im didn't teach Yoda how to fight, nor would Kas'im know all of Yoda's moves.

Best in the prime of the Jedi, Yoda is. Somehow Kas'im knowing multiple styles gives him the edge? Funny. I guess Kas'im would be owned by Sora Bulq since Sora knows Vaapad and Kas'im's never seen it.

Faulty strawman all around

Escape81
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Wow lightsnake you really want to go there don't you? I can EASILY counter your argument about Bane giving him a run for it. Think Anakin vs. Obiwan. Anakin was far superior to Obiwan but Obiwan knew his moves backwards and forwards. The exact same applies to Bane. And yet when Kas'im unleashed the Jar'kai style, Bane was screwed. Yoda can learn all the Ataru he wants, he's still outmatched in a saber duel.

Not every Makashi user fights identical to Count Dooku. Not every Ataru user fights exactly like Yoda (as Qui-Gon has shown us). Not every Juyo user fights like Darth Maul (who incorporated rigorous martial arts and a double bladed lightsaber into his fighting).

Obi-Wan knew more than just Anakin's fighting style. He knew Anakin. He knew how Anakin thought, his strengths, his weaknesses, his tactics, his consistencies. That enabled him to hold his own against Anakin.

Kas'Im will likely know what Yoda is using, but he will not know all of these things that Obi-Wan did.

Prodigal Knight
Kas'Im won't likely know what Yoda is doing. Imagine this. Kas'Im is this six foot Twi'Lek and he's facing against the two foot green guy with a saber. Yeah, he might believe he'll use Ataru, but he'll be taken aback by Yoda's speed and acrobatic fighting moves.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Hardly. Bane was a stranger to Jar'Krai, Yoda would not be. Bane had three years of training. Yoda had hundreds. Oh, and last I checked: Kas'im didn't teach Yoda how to fight, nor would Kas'im know all of Yoda's moves.

Best in the prime of the Jedi, Yoda is. Somehow Kas'im knowing multiple styles gives him the edge? Funny. I guess Kas'im would be owned by Sora Bulq since Sora knows Vaapad and Kas'im's never seen it.

Faulty strawman all around

You want to talk about strawman LOL..

"Kas'im didn't teach Yoda how to fight nor would he know Yoda's moves".
Hey Lightsnake, that goes for Yoda as well. There's no strawman because I was referring to Bane knowing all of Kas'ims moves, so your argument fails here.
You can refer to Yoda as this this and that, it doesn't really equate to anything in a fight.
Who said sora bulq was good? Oh right nobody. Kas'im IS good, with MORE saber knowledge than Yoda. Stop arguing with facts and provide a logical argument that doesn't include irrelevant verbal fellatio for Yoda.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Kas'Im won't likely know what Yoda is doing. Imagine this. Kas'Im is this six foot Twi'Lek and he's facing against the two foot green guy with a saber. Yeah, he might believe he'll use Ataru, but he'll be taken aback by Yoda's speed and acrobatic fighting moves.


Yet Kas'im himself demonstrated incredible force speed in a sbaer duel, faster than the eye could see.

Escape81
More lightsaber knowledge than Yoda? Hmm. Debateable. Yoda has far more experience with lightsabers than Kas'Im.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Escape81
More lightsaber knowledge than Yoda? Hmm. Debateable. Yoda has far more experience with lightsabers than Kas'Im.

Experience yes, Knowledge escape? They have both mastered the 7 forms, but there's no evidence of Yoda mastering the double bladed saber nor the Jar'kai style, therefore at this point Kas'im has more knowledge.

Prodigal Knight
However, Yoda has eight-hundred years of experting all his forms (with the exception of perhaps jar'kai) but Kas'Im has maybe only fifty years or so.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You want to talk about strawman LOL..

"Kas'im didn't teach Yoda how to fight nor would he know Yoda's moves".
Hey Lightsnake, that goes for Yoda as well. There's no strawman because I was referring to Bane knowing all of Kas'ims moves, so your argument fails here.
You can refer to Yoda as this this and that, it doesn't really equate to anything in a fight.
Who said sora bulq was good? Oh right nobody. Kas'im IS good, with MORE saber knowledge than Yoda. Stop arguing with facts and provide a logical argument that doesn't include irrelevant verbal fellatio for Yoda.

Yoda's shown himself capable in more than one duel. And BAne never saw Kas'im use Jar'Krai, remember?

And no, I won't 'stop,' because your way of argument is absolutely sad. Instead of trying to argue, you declare your agument as the conclusion.

You can refer to Kas'im being this and that, but it means nothing. C'mon, what do you have? One single fight where he was almost outmatched by Bane? where he was beaten by Bane, someone much weaker than Yoda? Yoda moved faster than the eye could see while unarmed against a Vaapad master and two other Jedi.
Seriously. Oh, btw, last I checked: Yoda would've devoted himself totaly to one style. More knowledge of different forms means absolutely nothing.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yoda's shown himself capable in more than one duel. And BAne never saw Kas'im use Jar'Krai, remember?

And no, I won't 'stop,' because your way of argument is absolutely sad. Instead of trying to argue, you declare your agument as the conclusion.
Says the one who uses "Yoda was the strongest foe darkness has ever known" as his argument.



Lets see what I have. Kas'ims superior knowledge in saber combat. His battle with bane was equivalent to Obiwan's win over Anakin, so once again your argument doesn't hold ground. Yoda moved faster than the eye could see, and so did Bane. Once again, great argument.

Lightsnake
Familiarize yourself with canon, DS. Yoda being more powerful than Kas'im has quite a bit of bearing.

And once again: Superior saber knowledge that is superior because you assume so.
Bane didn't take on three masters at once unarmed, either. Moot point

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Familiarize yourself with canon, DS. Yoda being more powerful than Kas'im has quite a bit of bearing.
Except in the sense that Kas'im was the perfect warrior that perfected every lightsaber style including ones Yoda didn't, so your canon quotes are meaningless in a versus fight, as usual.



What kind of argument is that? That's like saying "Oh Kobe Bryant is better than MJ, you know why, be cause he scored 81 points and MJ didn't." See how stupid that sounds? Because Yoda did feat X that Kas'im didn't, doesn't make him better.

Lightsnake
Which helps Kas'im how exactly? Oh, right, your quotes meaning nothing.

Ah, and Yoda did more impresive feats than Kas'im with his saber. Logic, logic

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Which helps Kas'im how exactly? Oh, right, your quotes meaning nothing.

Ah, and Yoda did more impresive feats than Kas'im with his saber. Logic, logic

For someone that preaches logic, you sure don't have any..

My quotes are relevant to a saber fight. Kas'im is the perfect warrior, referring to his lightsaber combat. He has more knowledge in the saber arts, more techniques. Yoda's feats are irrelevant to this fight. By your logic Naga Sadow=God because his illusions.

Prodigal Knight
That doesn't quite make sense...

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
That doesn't quite make sense...


Lightsnake is saying that because Kas'im didn't do feat X and Yoda did, Yoda=better. So just because Naga Sadow created illusions on an insane scale, he's better than someone like Exar Kun?

Escape81
You both need to chill.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Experience yes, Knowledge escape? They have both mastered the 7 forms, but there's no evidence of Yoda mastering the double bladed saber nor the Jar'kai style, therefore at this point Kas'im has more knowledge.

Perhaps. Kas'im's knowledge of lightsaber forms may equal or exceed Yoda's own, but Yoda's experience in combat and fighting with lightsabers FAR (!) exceeds Kas'im's own.

Experience does not always equal victory, I've said it before. But when you're dealing with someone like Yoda, it might. Besides, Yoda will win fairly comfortably in the second round.

Lightsnake
Ah, so Yoda's feats proving his skill with a saber mean nothing?

Right. You're just saying because he had DBL and Jar'Krai he'd win? That makes no sense. We have to assume Yoda wouldn't know how to counter a dBL and Jar'Krai after 900 years of perfecting his abilities and becoming the top duelist in the fighting prime of the Jedi.

How's that for dueling relevance?

RocasAtoll
Where does it say it's the fighting prime of the Jedi Order, Lightsnake?

Lightsnake
http://www.starwars.com/episode-i/bts/me1/6.html

Right here

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ah, so Yoda's feats proving his skill with a saber mean nothing?

Right. You're just saying because he had DBL and Jar'Krai he'd win? That makes no sense. We have to assume Yoda wouldn't know how to counter a dBL and Jar'Krai after 900 years of perfecting his abilities and becoming the top duelist in the fighting prime of the Jedi.

How's that for dueling relevance?

Omg stop with the "top duelist of the Jedi" crap. He couldn't do shit against Sidious, and Kas'im is more than likely a better duelist than Sidious.

RocasAtoll
Originally posted by Lightsnake
http://www.starwars.com/episode-i/bts/me1/6.html

Right here

That doesn't say it's the prime for LIGHTSABER FIGHTING.

Lightsnake
Sidious who had mastered all the forms of the saber and killed three of the best Jedi swordsman in moments?

Want a Nick Gillard quote? A master of every weapon and every style? And considering Yoda disarmed Palpatine...

Escape81
Originally posted by RocasAtoll
That doesn't say it's the prime for LIGHTSABER FIGHTING.

Advent had a source. And, to this day, I still think it's on an AotC commentary. Or on the special features DVD.

Lightsnake
'Fighting' In the 'Prime of the Jedi
'

Open and shut

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Sidious who had mastered all the forms of the saber and killed three of the best Jedi swordsman in moments?

Want a Nick Gillard quote? A master of every weapon and every style? And considering Yoda disarmed Palpatine...


Yes, give me a CANON quote that states Sidious MASTERED all forms as opposed to knowing them all. And according to the book and the movies, he didn't disarm him.

RocasAtoll
Originally posted by Lightsnake
'Fighting' In the 'Prime of the Jedi
'

Open and shut

Prime of the Jedi can refer to ANYTHING. May it be force powers, or diplomatic prowess.

Lightsnake
Sure! The Dark Side Sourcebook claims he had 'mastered the forms and styles of the Lightsaber,' and a quick search on TFN:


"Palpatine is ambidextrous with his saber. He's THAT good."-Gillard

"Sidious is a master of every weapon and every style."- Gillard

Lightsnake
Yes, Rocas, which is why Lucas used a direct reference to combat ability there...

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Sure! The Dark Side Sourcebook claims he had 'mastered the forms and styles of the Lightsaber,' and a quick search on TFN:


"Palpatine is ambidextrous with his saber. He's THAT good."-Gillard

"Sidious is a master of every weapon and every style."- Gillard


Mastered the forms? That means mastered all forms? Hardly.. Not Vaapad, probably not Juyo.

And I would NOT call Gillard a credible source.

Lightsnake
why not? He's someone official in LFL.
And 'Mastered the Forms.' Not 'some of them' Wasn't he using Juyo against Mace? Didn't he teach Maul Juyo?

Darth Sexy
I remember Advent bringing up a few points about Nick Gillard being shit in terms of credibility in terms of lightsaber combat, I'll have to find it.

Lightsnake
I'm sure she did. The point stands, though: It's official and coupled the other one in universe...

Darth Sexy
And this helps your argument how?

Lightsnake
Apparently Kas'im was better than Palp? Well, Palp is a master of every weapon and every style. Just like Sim

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Apparently Kas'im was better than Palp? Well, Palp is a master of every weapon and every style. Just like Sim

Except "every" can be interpreted any way you want. Nothing remotely suggests he knows Jar'Kai, obviously not Vaapad, and double bladed saber fighting. So that quote means nothing.

Lightsnake
jar'krai's a style last I checked...

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Lightsnake
jar'krai's a style last I checked...

I believe the jar'kai style was introduced after the sourcebook was written? And even so, you have no argument with a quote like "everything". One quote doesn't make it canon, nor is there any evidence that Sidious knew the jar'kai style or how to fight with double blades.

Prodigal Knight
However, he taught Maul, who used Jar'Kai. He has to know how to show the Zabrak the moves and stuff.

Lightsnake
Jar'KRai was a style when Gillard made the quote...and far as I know, two handed fighting was around since......Dark Forces

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
However, he taught Maul, who used Jar'Kai. He has to know how to show the Zabrak the moves and stuff.

Maul never used Jar'kai, and it's very unlikely he taught Maul the double blade, unless you have proof of it.

Lightsnake
Didn't Maul fight very briefly with two blades until Obi-wan disarmed him?

and how else would Maul learn the DBL?

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Didn't Maul fight very briefly with two blades until Obi-wan disarmed him?

and how else would Maul learn the DBL?

No, he didn't. And I don't know, considering Sidious was a master of the single blade.

Lightsnake
Well, according to Gillard Palp's a master of all weapons. You really think someone like Palpatine would leave himself at any disadvantage? Where'd Maul learn to fight? Where'd he learn to use the Dark Side? Who tuaght him Tera Kasi?

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Well, according to Gillard Palp's a master of all weapons. You really think someone like Palpatine would leave himself at any disadvantage? Where'd Maul learn to fight? Where'd he learn to use the Dark Side? Who tuaght him Tera Kasi?

It doesn't matter what I think lightsnake, but there's no evidence of Palpatine ever mastering Jar'Kai or the double blade. In fact show me an instance of someone during the PT era using the Jar'Kai style. You can't? Oh ok, so why would Sidious need to master it?

Lightsnake
You mean minus the "He mastered the forms and styles of the Lightsaber," Nick saying He's a master of every form and style and what his apprentice did?
And PT era using Jar'KRai style? Ok, Anakin. A'Sharad Hett, too. Oh, Sora Bulq....General Grievous. Dooku was originally intended to use Jar'Krai. Asajj Ventress was a major one. Sev'Rance Tann...Mace Windu and Depa Billaba on Haruun Kal, Aayla Secura, Joclad Danva, Serra Keto, Komari Vosa, Micah Giett- a former council member...

Possibly a few more

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Lightsnake
You mean minus the "He mastered the forms and styles of the Lightsaber," Nick saying He's a master of every form and style and what his apprentice did?
And PT era using Jar'KRai style? Ok, Anakin. A'Sharad Hett, too. Oh, Sora Bulq....General Grievous. Dooku was originally intended to use Jar'Krai. Asajj Ventress was a major one. Sev'Rance Tann...Mace Windu and Depa Billaba on Haruun Kal, Aayla Secura, Joclad Danva, Serra Keto, Komari Vosa, Micah Giett- a former council member...

Possibly a few more

And Sidious quit using a saber by TPM, so I rest my case. Anything he would have mastered, would have been before TPM.

Lightsnake
Since when? Where's the freaking proof there? He was still alone often enough, remember Sithisis? He was perfecting rituals and other Sith knowledge, why not the saber? He was prepared for a fight as evidenced by his retrieving his saber in the ROTS novelization...

Seriously now

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Since when? Where's the freaking proof there? He was still alone often enough, remember Sithisis? He was perfecting rituals and other Sith knowledge, why not the saber? He was prepared for a fight as evidenced by his retrieving his saber in the ROTS novelization...

Seriously now

Who cares what he was prepared for? As escape said, he didnt touch a saber after TPM. He became the chancellor and had absolutely no time to do this. Proof is your "everything" quite is ambiguous and doesn't help your argument any.

Lightsnake
Can you provide proof of this?
He had time to retreat to the basement and do kooky 'summon a giant worm to eat me while I create storms across the galaxy' rituals...

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Can you provide proof of this?
He had time to retreat to the basement and do kooky 'summon a giant worm to eat me while I create storms across the galaxy' rituals...

I don't know how canon sithisis is, but as a chancellor it is VERY UNLIKELY he had time to just perfect lightsaber combat. So again you claim he knows everything, now prove it. You certainly love to parade around that quote. SO let me give you an example. If he knew everything and luke didn't, why is Luke>>>>>Sidious?

Kadesh
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I don't know how canon sithisis is, but as a chancellor it is VERY UNLIKELY he had time to just perfect lightsaber combat. So again you claim he knows everything, now prove it. You certainly love to parade around that quote. SO let me give you an example. If he knew everything and luke didn't, why is Luke>>>>>Sidious?

see? exactly, if luke didnt master everything then why did luke >>>>> sidious, esp lotf luke

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I don't know how canon sithisis is, but as a chancellor it is VERY UNLIKELY he had time to just perfect lightsaber combat. So again you claim he knows everything, now prove it. You certainly love to parade around that quote. SO let me give you an example. If he knew everything and luke didn't, why is Luke>>>>>Sidious?

Because GL hath spoken and Luke's the freaking grandson of the Force.
And I did prove it: Those quotes, fully canon, prove it for me.
and Luke's power skyrocketed in Palpatine's tutelage, last I checked.

And once more: The Chancellor has enough time to summon Sith ghosts and do crazy Sith rituals. It's a stretch to think he MIGHT be practicing a saber when he's alone? I wouldn't think he'd have time to grab a black hood and chill with Dooku in his secret underground lair.

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Lightsnake Because GL hath spoken and Luke's the freaking grandson of the Force.
And I did prove it: Those quotes, fully canon, prove it for me.
and Luke's power skyrocketed in Palpatine's tutelage, last I checked.

Well then if they prove it to you then that's enough!! Unfortunately they don't prove it to everybody else who don't hide behind blanket statements.



Show me where it says sithisis is canon.. THEN prove to me that he learned saber styles during his quick getaways.. Oh that's right, how long does a sith ritual take? A lot LESS than for him to LEARN AND MASTER A WHOLE NEW STYLE AS THE CHANCELLOR. Quit being daft Lightsnake, your quotes are defeated.

Lightsnake
I'm sorry, Sexy, but those quotes are canon by the canon policy, meaning they fly in SW. I don't care if they're enough for you or not, because they're law as far as Star Wars is concerned.
How dare I use actual proof, oh horrible me!
and GL hath spoken, end of story

as Leland Chee is concerned, if it doesn't contradict- like 'Old Wounds', then it's in. Nothing contradicts Sithisis, so it's in and there was that nice Q'n'A section at TFN I told you about.
And apparently Sith rituals take a while. Oh, you ignore how Palp had time to go hang with Dooku in a big black robe in a secret underbase?

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Lightsnake
I'm sorry, Sexy, but those quotes are canon by the canon policy, meaning they fly in SW. I don't care if they're enough for you or not, because they're law as far as Star Wars is concerned.
How dare I use actual proof, oh horrible me!
and GL hath spoken, end of story
Sorry lightsnake, but too often have you paraded around your blanket, ambiguous quotes, so they stand for you and nobody else, which doesn't concern me. Until you can actually prove anything, your quotes are meaningless, even if you decide to hide against them.



Oh ok then, then I guess Maul being reborn 3-4 times is canon, and so is legacy? Oh wait, they don't have an LFL thing on them, so their status as being canon or not is debateable. Thanks for clearing that up..

Lightsnake
No, it's ambiguous because you want them to be. It's fine when they work for you but the moment they don't you run away and demonize. It's a cute tactic but sorry! There's more than one quote and all support the same thing, both contemporary and older sources, approved by LFL and thus CANON, what is so hard to understand?

What part about 'if it doesn't contradict it's fine?' Maul's reviving was declared by Chee to be N-canon except POSSIBLY Ressurection. The others are out of the Holocron database.

And Legacy's canon, why wouldn't they be?

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, it's ambiguous because you want them to be. It's fine when they work for you but the moment they don't you run away and demonize. It's a cute tactic but sorry! There's more than one quote and all support the same thing, both contemporary and older sources, approved by LFL and thus CANON, what is so hard to understand?
No lightsnake, they're ambiguous because they're ambiguous. I don't use quotes to hide the fact that I can't debate. Certain quotes are definitive, and the ones you parade around ar not, understand that. So until you can provide an explanation to your quotes, they're irrelevant.



I finally understand canon policy, and if it's not LFL approved it's debateable.

Lightsnake
How're they ambiguous? What does 'everything' mean? I'll give you a hint, it's not 'everyting Darth Sexy wants it to be.'
And what more explanation do you want? I even gave the elaboration to said quotes. You want to check out the part where it was talking about 'all the levels of the force, all of the powers, all the guises?'

And no, Sexy, you don't: Maul's ressurections were meant to be non-canon. Sithisis fits in fine, especially as it confirmed in the Ultimate Visual Guide

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Lightsnake
How're they ambiguous? What does 'everything' mean? I'll give you a hint, it's not 'everyting Darth Sexy wants it to be.'
And what more explanation do you want? I even gave the elaboration to said quotes. You want to check out the part where it was talking about 'all the levels of the force, all of the powers, all the guises?'

And no, Sexy, you don't: Maul's ressurections were meant to be non-canon. Sithisis fits in fine, especially as it confirmed in the Ultimate Visual Guide

Well, i've just given you instances where everything doesn't equate. Considering there are infinite techniques in the galaxy that Sidious obviously had no knowledge of (IE flow walking, looping technique), i'd say your quote is meaningless. Now if it's applied to ancient sith techniques and dark side techniques I won't argue.. But anything else the quote doesn't work as an argument, i'm sure I'll have everyone else backing that up.

Lightsnake
No, you gave me your interpretation, there's a different.

And WTF, Palpatine even mentions The Fallanassi in one of those 'traditions', along with the Nightsisters, the Palawans, the Bundukai...

Hell, we know Fallanassi joined the Empire, what more else do you need?

all the powers of the Sith Lords and the Jedi Masters seems...rather definitive...

Darth Sexy
Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, you gave me your interpretation, there's a different.

And WTF, Palpatine even mentions The Fallanassi in one of those 'traditions', along with the Nightsisters, the Palawans, the Bundukai...

Hell, we know Fallanassi joined the Empire, what more else do you need?

all the powers of the Sith Lords and the Jedi Masters seems...rather definitive...

Definitive to you lightsnake, unfortunately for you, techniques such as the flow walk came about after the DSB was created, so it seems that Sidious doesn't know everything after all. And who cares if there were fallanassi that joined the empire. That equates to him knowing their technique? Please.. Your quote is useless.

Kadesh
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Definitive to you lightsnake, unfortunately for you, techniques such as the flow walk came about after the DSB was created, so it seems that Sidious doesn't know everything after all. And who cares if there were fallanassi that joined the empire. That equates to him knowing their technique? Please.. Your quote is useless.

exactly, why would they want to teach sidious their techniques in the force

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