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All right, a battle between the fallen Jedi, once called Anakin Skywalker, and the leader of the Sith armada against the Republic. This will take place in the command deck of the Leviathan. Anything goes.
I'm new at this, so if you think it's a stupid thread, just tell me.

My vote's on Vader. Malak might put up a tough fight, considering Vader's limited mobility, but in the end, I think Vader's a better fighter + stronger in the Force.

Malak. Not because he is necessarily more powerful than Vader, but Vader has this weakness to Force lightning...

So this is mechanical Vader? Then Malak wins.

Originally posted by Escape81
Malak. Not because he is necessarily more powerful than Vader, but Vader has this weakness to Force lightning...

Who's to say that Malak's lightning is powerful enough for Vader NOT to block it with his lightsaber? We've seen Obiwan do it to Dooku who didn't have a very powerful version of force lightning. Vader has that ability as well.

And vaders saber combat > malaks, even in the force, malak uses makashi, and vader uses djem so.

Vader could rip metal apart during the purge, and was able to slay 3-4 jedis swiftly

seriously, stop underestimating vader

Actually I'd give the force advantage to Malak, considering he was quite powerful at his peak, and Vader's force abilities were severely limited in his suit.

Well, but vader could kill his officer from a long distance apart, He blew a blast door with the force, twisted it and sent it flying, He has one of the most powerful force abilities like force crush, whom malak cant stand up against, Again his lightsaber can block malaks lightning

Originally posted by Kadesh
Well, but vader could kill his officer from a long distance apart, He blew a blast door with the force, twisted it and sent it flying, He has one of the most powerful force abilities like force crush, whom malak cant stand up against, Again his lightsaber can block malaks lightning

Vader did it to a non force sensitive, there's nothing to suggest he can use this maneuver on a powerful force user like Malak. Also, I didn't say Vader could block the lightning, I said it was possible. We'd have to know how powerful Malak's lightning was before making that assumption, but it is a possibility.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Vader did it to a non force sensitive, there's nothing to suggest he can use this maneuver on a powerful force user like Malak. Also, I didn't say Vader could block the lightning, I said it was possible. We'd have to know how powerful Malak's lightning was before making that assumption, but it is a possibility. true, but i doubt malaks mastery of lightning is as powerful as sidious, more of like dooku maybe.
And if vader can twist and turn metal and at the same time he could also pound a jedi with a huge red wood tree, i assume he could rip malak apart. Again not many jedis could defend against crush, jedis from the NJO can because luke taught them to push the force outwards forming a shield as luke demonstrated in DE

Malak, at his peak, was also regenerating in the Star Forge. He has no such advantage here.
Combine that with the fact that Vader can probably block force lightning, and is a better duelist, I'm sticking with Vader.

Same here, vader has shown us far more impressive feats than malak.Taking on 7 jedi masters, carving through an army of wookies, twisting and blasting metal apart with the force, swiftly killing 4 jedi masters

Hmm, people seem to be seriously underestimating Malak here.

Saberwise:
Malak was stated by the masters at Dantooine to be a saber prodigy, most likely having mastered Schien or Makashi (judging by the way he fights in cutscenes), and with the exception of Revan, he seemingly outclassed anyone in the KotOR era.
The fact that he was so high up on the scales, in such a martial period which saw lots of jedi on sith action speaks volumes. He was also a frontline general for the jedi during the Mandalorian wars, and would have seen an extraordinary amount of fighting; in terms of battle experience he has a lot, and he had the type of battle experience that is very much beneficial to a fight like this - jedi on sith, lightsaber on lightsaber. Even in the Mandalorian wars, he would have received experience beneficial to his dueling skills as they used blades as well as blasters.
He was also a huge and physically strong man, and he was young and most likely in his physical prime.
And while we don't know much about what he did, we do know that he defeated Bastilla (who herself was no pushover, one of the top jedi), we do know that he defeated Kavar (the head of the jedi guardians, most likely the order's top duelist), and logic dictates that he killed a bunch of jedi as well. And he was also able to put up a great fight against jedi master Revan (who was said to be stronger than Darth Revan) on the Star Forge, granted he could draw power from the captive jedi. And while he was said to have lost his jaw in combat, logic points to Revan being the one who did it, as they were stated to have fought for the mantle of dark lord of the sith, and we know that Revan beat him; if it had been a jedi, they would have most likely captured him or killed him or something, whereas Revan would have use for him, so it was most likely Revan.
But really, the fact that he was in any way comparable to Revan speaks volumes in my eyes.

Forcewise:
Malak was stated by the masters at Dantooine to have been prodigious with the force, he knew ancient sith teachings (such as force drain as demonstrated on the star forge, and most likely other things such as force storm, thought bomb, probably had many sith artifacts and whatnot that he and Revan plundered from Korriban) and was stated to be not too far from Darth Revan who we know now from KotOR and PoD was uber.
He has demonstrated extreme force mastery such as using the force to lift two jedi up, choking the first one while blasting the other with lightning, then throwing his saber into the first one killing him while throwing the second back using the force. These two jedi were clearly very skilled having fought through much of the Star Forge, and Malak just toyed with both of them like they were children. I'd say this feat alone puts him high up on the scales.
He was also able to suppress Revan's precognition well enough to surprise attack Revan - this is extremely impressive, Revan's precognition was stated to be above the level of Echani masters who could predict the outcome of war years before they happened.
There's also the fact that Malak was able to rule above Nihilus and Sion, in a society where the strongest rule, so this must tell you something (granted they were both neophytes a the time).

Now I'm not saying that Malak necessarily has this, just making a case for him.

Well we do know that vader swiftly killed 4 jedi masters with a stroke of his lightsaber and he ripped metal apart as if it was nothing, he even knows how to tap into an opponents mind and exploit their weakness, He proved that his force push is devastating when when slamed tark onto the ceiling against gravity and caysing a massive dent, He even demonstrated the ability to destroy and rip apart Tanks and he has been shown to blow dozens of soldiers back with his force push.EU vader would shred malak apart, it is alot of people who underestimate the mechanical vader, Those things i mentioned came from Eaw, and he could have killed up to 6 jedi masters quickly if it werent for that idiot jedi who back stabbed him during the purge. He ripped apart and blew a 1-2m thick blast door by just getting angry and screaming obi wans name, imagine if he had really used a technique to do so, and He was able to choke and kill his officer when not even being there

Originally posted by Dessel
There's also the fact that Malak was able to rule above Nihilus and Sion, in a society where the strongest rule, so this must tell you something (granted they were both neophytes a the time).

Now I'm not saying that Malak necessarily has this, just making a case for him. Firstly malak and revan NEVER knew sion and nihilus existed by the way, point moot


Force wise vader has been shown much more impressive featsthan malak, see above, Not to forget he pulls of alot of unexpected suprise attakcs by using his sorroundings as his weapon, He even smashed a redwood tree against the dark woman killing her, whom she herself is fast and a very deadly opponent
saber wise malak uses FORM II makashi, whihc would get pwned by a master of Djem so, who has been proven that makashi is completely useless against djem so, especially against some one who has incredible physical strength alone: Vader

Originally posted by Dessel

Forcewise:
Malak was stated by the masters at Dantooine to have been prodigious with the force, he knew ancient sith teachings (such as force drain as demonstrated on the star forge, and most likely other things such as force storm, thought bomb, probably had many sith artifacts and whatnot that he and Revan plundered from Korriban) for him. Lastly he does not know the thought bomb and force storm, Do not make this up since there is no proof that malak knew all these techniques.

And by the way, weather or not malak uses shien or makashi, its gonna get wtf pwned by vaders variation of djem so,1) makashi sucks against djem so and 2)Malaks physical strength alone is lower than vaders, so contending djem so vs djem so where vader has the advantage

Yes, they did. It is stated in KotOR that they trained at the academy on Korriban. Nihilus exiled himself and sought out the Trayus academy when it seemed that Revan had died, Sion did the same when Revan defeated Malak and when the factions of the Sith on Korriban turned on each other. They both found Traya and were made her apprentices. Point unmooted, know you're stuff.



Key words - 'most likely'.



1. Malak's form is anyone's guess. I was stating that it was possibly Schien or Makashi. Now stop working under the assumption that it is definitely one of these forms, that is where your argument collapses.

2. Vader is unagile, slow and unskilled in the movies, I don't see how any master who is skilled and quick wouldn't be able to beat him in a duel.

Originally posted by Dessel
Yes, they did. It is stated in KotOR that they trained at the academy on Korriban. Nihilus exiled himself and sought out the Trayus academy when it seemed that Revan had died, Sion did the same when Revan defeated Malak and when the factions of the Sith on Korriban turned on each other. They both found Traya and were made her apprentices. Point unmooted, know you're stuff.
Wrong, Nihilus was a survivor of the mandalorian wars, hr only became a sith AFTER the jedi civil war, had he been around he would have killed and drained every one, try again No proof he had been around during JCW, And by the way, traya traned nihilus and sion ON malachor V, nihilus hasnever been on korriban before, And nihilus could wtf pwn his master with a simple force push and cut her off the force, Still think malak can > nihilus? try again
.You have no idea how powerful nihilus is so dont assume malak > nihilus, nihilus was the one who singlehandedly destroyed the entire jedi council after the jedi civil war

Originally posted by Dessel
1. Malak's form is anyone's guess. I was stating that it was possibly Schien or Makashi. Now stop working under the assumption that it is definitely one of these forms, that is where your argument collapses.
Then dont bring up assumtions he uses makashi or shien and we assume he uses makashi because of his one handed style

Originally posted by Dessel

2. Vader is unagile, slow and unskilled in the movies, I don't see how any master who is skilled and quick wouldn't be able to beat him in a duel. Prehaps i should tell you that he has shown agility and amazing skill in the flash back of Crimson Empire, and prehaps the stunts he did in RODV and the jedi purge killing 3 masters in 1 swift stroke? You cant build up excuses saying "movie" is higher canon when already it has been recorded that vader DID show us amazing agility even in his suit. And he was even able to choke a jedi, and lift him in the air while dueling 2 other jedi masters. Again vaders speed is decent even in the movies, expecially TESB when he was graceful, we see him fight brutally in RODV and The purge, how can a very very slow guy fight in a 7 on 1 match? Point is, he shows us how he really fights in the EU

prehaps you should read this

Around 3.5 ABY, Vader had ordered ASP-19 droids, lightsaber combat droids based off the ASP-series droid, produced to fight him in sparring matches. They were faster and stronger than an ordinary man, and programmed with the knowledge of a hundred sword masters and a dozen fighting styles. Vader defeated them time and again, and ordered a new, improved batch of them. As his finesse improved they became too easy to defeat, even in a two-on-one match.

Yes, he survived the Mandalorian Wars, and became a sith neophyte at the Academy at Korriban; it's all in the game Kadesh, do some research.



Don't tell me what to do. I'm allowed to bring up assumptions, just so long as I don't base my arguments on them, which is what you do.

And since when was one handed wielding a trait of Makashi?



Fact: If he fights any more quickly or skilled in the EU than he does in the movies, it is simply a contradiction and therefor rendered invalid. Sorry to have to break it to you.

Originally posted by Dessel
Yes, he survived the Mandalorian Wars, and became a sith neophyte at the Academy at Korriban; it's all in the game Kadesh, do some research. try again, KotorII stated that he became a sith AT malachor V, he never appeared in kotor1 by the way

read this then, it shatters your arguements of nihilus existing during JCW
After the war he was found by Darth Traya to be Force-sensitive, and she began training him in the ways of the Sith at the Trayus Academy on Malachor V. Disagreeing with his master's teaching methods, Nihilus, along with fellow apprentice Darth Sion, plotted and turned against their
master

Originally posted by Dessel
Fact: If he fight any more quickly or skilled in the EU than he does in the movies, it is simply a contradiction and therefor rendered invalid. Sorry to have to break it to you. Sorry to say you cant use that as an arguement, it has already been recorded and already been shown to us, Fact is, EU is where they featured how vader really fought. We saw boba fett die in the movies, and he came back in DE, so? movies are higher canon what. By the way, RODV CE and the Purge are all canon, as stated by leland chee himself, try again. What has been done has been done, you cany build up excuses saying it is a contradiction, so? mace waseen to be as slow sa vader in ROTS but in CW he is ridicously overpowered, obviously that is taken into consideration of how powerful mace is. Same with vader, The things he did in the EU has already been shown to us, weather you like it or not it has already happened, and CAN be used for an arguement, suit youself, deny it all you want.

And by the way, vader would tear through malak with the force, prove in Eaw he could destroy an entire platoon of tanks and wipe out an army of wookies in RODV, He was shown in CE flashback to did have agility and reasonable speed, Sorry, it has happened, it has been shown to us, And already it is canon, too bad you cant use it as an

Wrong!
You're arguing out of ignorance.
Now drop it.



Wrong!
You're arguing against canon.
Now I consider the case closed, bring this point up again and it'll just get ignored.

Originally posted by Dessel
Wrong!
You're arguing out of ignorance.
Now drop it.
You brought this up. You claimed that in kotor1 the jedi said he was a student in korriban, dead wrong, he was trained by darth traya personally on malachor V

again, read this After the war he was found by Darth Traya to be Force-sensitive, and she began training him in the ways of the Sith at the Trayus Academy on Malachor V. Disagreeing with his master's teaching methods, Nihilus, along with fellow apprentice Darth Sion, plotted and turned against their dark mistress. They cast Traya down, stripped her of her power

Originally posted by Dessel
Wrong!
You're arguing against canon.
Now I consider the case closed, bring this point up again and it'll just get ignored. Am i? sad to say it is you who is argueing against something which already happened and already recorded in SW history. weather or not you like it you jolly well accept it that vader did what he did in the EU. saying it is a contradiction wont help. We never see mace fight fast in ROTS, does it mean so? NO

Source?

Vader.

He has crushed the dark woman with a huge tree, a feat that is easily above anything we've seen from Malak, or almost anybody. It doesn't sound that impressive, but, if you see the comic, you'll know what I mean. With that one showing alone it can be concluded that he'd rip through Malaks force defences and thrash him with the force. He has also:
*Held Boba Fett in place with the force, his grip around him being compared to steel.
* Popped a severed (living) head while it was in a chest without any concentration.
* Thrown a choking officer dozens of feet into the air.
* Ripped apart wrosher trees with the force (the same type of trees that were unphased by heavy blaster fire).
* Choked one person, sent another one flying dozens of feet, and threw a sword with the force into a third, all at the same time with no gestures or apparent struggle.
* Choked an officer from a ridiculous distance (In ESB).
* Threw debris at Luke (and another Jedi Master in RODV) to overwhelm them.
* Choked a Jedi while unarmed.
* Held Master Choi, a very powerful Jedi Master, in the air with the force.
* Threw his lightsaber an assumed great distance and killed one person and mortally wounded another (lived due to immediate medical attention), while a Jedi that was closer to the targets was trying to use the force to stop him.
* When circled by predators, he reached out sending them all flying dozens of feet in every direction.
* Owned a group of common thugs with the force, one of whom got sent flying back 50+ feet into a stone wall which crumbled with the force of the blow.
* Learned from Sidious.
* Resisted Sidious' lightning, with no saber and after being beat down, long enough to pick him up and throw him down the reactor shaft.
* A lot more.

As far as lightsaber skills go:
* Carved through 20+ wookiees in seconds.
* Beat Obi Wan.
* Beat ESB Luke.
* Toyed with one of the most deadliest duelists in the galaxy as if he was a child (using kicks and showing a lot of agility) in Crimson Empire.
* Owned two Jedi Knights who had seen action in the clone wars and worked very well together.
* Beat down some padawans in one move...
* Uses elements from many different styles (even the "Most dangerous" Including Makashi and Djem So) and uses only one hand with immense physical strength.
* Has lightsaber resistant armor. (A powerful swing from Luke only sizzled his shoulder).
* A lot more...

Fell free to add anything...

You really need to understand that Vader's abilities are severely limited. That's not to say that he was the second most powerful guy in the galaxy, but the galaxy didn't possess a "Darth Malak" at this point. Malak could either kill him with force lightning, or would defeat him with a saber blade after a long fight. Vader just doesn't possess ALL the necessary tools to defeat Malak.
And don't forget Malak had the ability to force drain Jedi, an ability that we don't see in the PT era, whether the technique was lost or it was useless.

Well, he's better with the force and a lightsaber, and can block lightning with his saber, so...

Even if Malak shot out lightning at Vader, a simple force push would send Malak flying back faster and further then the lightning would come at him.

Originally posted by jollyjim311 Well, he's better with the force and a lightsaber, and can block lightning with his saber, so...
No, you're speculating. It's very unlikely Vader was better than Malak with the force. Also, him being able to block force lightning with his saber is also speculative, as I have already stated. It depends to what degree Malak can use the force lightning. Then again if Mace could block Sidious' force lightning, it's a possibility Vader could block Malak's.



Now you're assuming a simple force push will take care of Malak, or that the force push will send him flying..

Given what we've seen of Vaders abilities, and, given that we've seen nothing impressive from Malak, yeah, I'd say that's fair. It's obvious that Malak had to be good, but, there's no reason to simply assume that he's as good as Vader.

Well what some people are forgetting is there was a span of 20 years that Vader was in his suit before we actually see him, so any EU references that describe his actions during that time isn't contradicted by the movies, being that its a different time period. Had he fought all the Jedi during the purges as he did against OB1 in ANH, he would have lost. As we undoubtedly know, he did survive, and killed many Jedi by himself in the process. So you cant say that suited Vader is slow and clumsy. You can however say that suited Vader in the OT was slower and less agile.

Vader is extremely strong physically and in the force. The only thing that we know Vader cant do is lightning, which really isn't that that big of a deal. We've only seen one person die of it, and ironically enough it was Vader, but no one else had died from it. Do we know that Malak was at least 80% of Sidious? If not, then Vader is more powerful, and thusly has that advantage.

I'd give this to Vader after a tough fight, though.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Given what we've seen of Vaders abilities, and, given that we've seen nothing impressive from Malak, yeah, I'd say that's fair. It's obvious that Malak had to be good, but, there's no reason to simply assume that he's as good as Vader.

Malak was #2 in an order of tens of thousands. He did have force lightning and force drain as his main weapons. I would say he's as good as, if not better than Vader in a suit.

Well people put Dooku above Malak. And people put Vader above Dooku. Even if this doesn't work, I am putting my money on Vader. Malak has lightning, choke, confusion/stun, Force Removal (that's what he does in the final fight, he removes some of your Force stuff), etc.

Of course, Vader could beat him in the saber and he can fight telekinetically with the saber and Force.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Vader.

He has crushed the dark woman with a huge tree, a feat that is easily above anything we've seen from Malak, or almost anybody. It doesn't sound that impressive, but, if you see the comic, you'll know what I mean. With that one showing alone it can be concluded that he'd rip through Malaks force defences and thrash him with the force. He has also:
*Held Boba Fett in place with the force, his grip around him being compared to steel.
* Popped a severed (living) head while it was in a chest without any concentration.
* Thrown a choking officer dozens of feet into the air.
* Ripped apart wrosher trees with the force (the same type of trees that were unphased by heavy blaster fire).
* Choked one person, sent another one flying dozens of feet, and threw a sword with the force into a third, all at the same time with no gestures or apparent struggle.
* Choked an officer from a ridiculous distance (In ESB).
* Threw debris at Luke (and another Jedi Master in RODV) to overwhelm them.
* Choked a Jedi while unarmed.
* Held Master Choi, a very powerful Jedi Master, in the air with the force.
* Threw his lightsaber an assumed great distance and killed one person and mortally wounded another (lived due to immediate medical attention), while a Jedi that was closer to the targets was trying to use the force to stop him.
* When circled by predators, he reached out sending them all flying dozens of feet in every direction.
* Owned a group of common thugs with the force, one of whom got sent flying back 50+ feet into a stone wall which crumbled with the force of the blow.
* Learned from Sidious.
* Resisted Sidious' lightning, with no saber and after being beat down, long enough to pick him up and throw him down the reactor shaft.
* A lot more.

As far as lightsaber skills go:
* Carved through 20+ wookiees in seconds.
* Beat Obi Wan.
* Beat ESB Luke.
* Toyed with one of the most deadliest duelists in the galaxy as if he was a child (using kicks and showing a lot of agility) in Crimson Empire.
* Owned two Jedi Knights who had seen action in the clone wars and worked very well together.
* Beat down some padawans in one move...
* Uses elements from many different styles (even the "Most dangerous" Including Makashi and Djem So) and uses only one hand with immense physical strength.
* Has lightsaber resistant armor. (A powerful swing from Luke only sizzled his shoulder).
* A lot more...

Fell free to add anything...



Also for the force add that his command was so tremendous that he could even heal his self from his wounds. But couldn't sustain the rage necessary as he got to happy he was healed.

As for saber skills he beat Maul who was clearly more agile then him.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Actually I'd give the force advantage to Malak, considering he was quite powerful at his peak, and Vader's force abilities were severely limited in his suit.

Not really.

The only things that were compromised were Anakin's immense potential and his agility/mobility. Remember: he trained, extensively, in the Dark Side under Palpatine for twenty years, as well as gaining immense control over his emotions. He learned the virtues of patience and tactical thinking. Rise of Darth Vader and Empire Strikes Back shows us that he's capable of ripping apart entire environments and using them against his foes.

I'd say he's superior to Malak in the Force. But Malak would win if he can get off a good burst of lightning.

Originally posted by Escape81
Not really.

The only things that were compromised were Anakin's immense potential and his agility/mobility. Remember: he trained, extensively, in the Dark Side under Palpatine for twenty years, as well as gaining immense control over his emotions. He learned the virtues of patience and tactical thinking. Rise of Darth Vader and Empire Strikes Back shows us that he's capable of ripping apart entire environments and using them against his foes.

I'd say he's superior to Malak in the Force. But Malak would win if he can get off a good burst of lightning.

I've never read any comic detailing the journeys of Vader, so I could be wrong. But yes, if Malak's force lightning is strong enough, Vader doesn't stand a chance. It's debateable whether or not Malak could use the drain on Vader..

To be honest, Vader is probably slightly stronger with the force, however I'd reckon that Malak would annihilate him with a saber.

Why? Malak was never stated to be a prodigy, he beat Kavar who was never stated to have been the best, he beat Bastila...WOW...and lost to Revan, now Im not saying he was shit with a saber especially since the databank remarks on how he created special lightsabers to take advantage of his physical attributes. He must have been pretty damn good, but theres nothing to suggest he's on Vaders level of physical power. Since they are about the same height, and Vader because of his suit is stronger then Malak. I'd say Vader takes it in the dueling department since Malak is an unknown and Vaders credentials have already been well established.

Originally posted by Dessel
To be honest, Vader is probably slightly stronger with the force, however I'd reckon that Malak would annihilate him with a saber.

And just how do you "reckon" that, Nebaris?

Vader is slow, unagile and unskilled in the movies. Lucas has come to terms with it, and anyone who can properly interpret swordfighting would know this.



Is that a play on the words, 'Nebar Foxis'?

Note that he took out the Nebaris, LOL.

And the Vader is slow discussion has been thoroughly argued already, especially in the gigantic Vader vs. Tyrannus thread. Vader isn't slow or unagile man.

Yes, he is. You can see this through the movies, and GL has confirmed this.

But there are more factors than that, consider the time period of the movies for one, the actors, the EU, etc. And where did you get the quote?

The movie is the highest for of canon, Cyborg Vader is at his peak in them, and GL heavily indicates what is obvious from the movies on the video here - http://starwars.com/episode-i/bts/me1/6.html. Basically, in terms of dueling, PT >>> OT, GL refers to Vader as a 'half crippled droid' (IIRC), and basically confirms that his vision for the PT was to make the duels much faster and more skilled, in contrary to the unskilled, slow duels of the OT.

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Vader is fast when required. But just not as fast as he used to be, or Malak.

Also, Vader is stronger than Malak, and could possibly just batter him to death, and he is superior to Malak in the Force.

But, again, Malak can win (very easily) if he can somehow electrocute Vader.

Try this - http://starwars.com/episode-i/bts/me1/6.html .

Dessel, Vader may not be as fast as the typical Jedi, however his swordsmanship is not lacking. He can definately defeat malak in saber combat. It's been proven that Vader is greater than Dooku in saber combat, and Dooku can definately slay Malak in a lightsaber duel. Of course, if you wish to enlighten yourself on it, good luck, it's a LONG read. The Vader vs. Tyrannus thread. There was like five full pages on Vader's speed if I recall plus a whole seperate thread in the Eu forum I think.

Dessel, how can you even entertain the thought that OT Vader was him in his prime? We haven't seen him during the purge yet. Granted, his force mastery is at its peak during the OT, but there's more than just that, that makes you a complete warrior. Wait till the show comes out and if they show Vader (with modern technology) we most likely see a Vader that we have never seen before. But claim outright that he's in his prime then, is ridiculous.

Not to forget what he has done during the purge and EU has already happened, so you cant use "higher" canon as an excuse. What if i told you OT vader is EVEN stronger than purge Vader whom already purge vader and rip and shred metal apart

yea, but i meant speed and agility more so though. But yea good point. But like i was saying earlier, you cant use the OT as a measuring stick for Vader BEFORE the Ot and AFTER ROTS. It's not in the least logical.

Why not? Give one good reason why he would be weaker by the OT. The fact is, by the OT he has spent the most time possible getting used to his suit, his mastery of his saber hasn't in any way deteriorated that we know of, and he has a higher mastery of the force. Logic tells you that OT Cyborg Vader > Pre OT Cyborg Vader.

Which is why i said OT vader > EUvader, And EU vader especially Purge vader is ridiculously powerful, ripping apart a 1m thick blast door as if it was nothing by just screaming obi wans name. We dont see vader fight to his max in the movies, Or him showing any intresting abilities, All the things he did were in the EU. By the movies, he justcommands the fleet, You should really read Purge comic, vader is extreme there

Originally posted by Dessel
Why not? Give one good reason why he would be weaker by the OT. The fact is, by the OT he has spent the most time possible getting used to his suit, his mastery of his saber hasn't in any way deteriorated that we know of, and he has a higher mastery of the force. Logic tells you that OT Cyborg Vader > Pre OT Cyborg Vader.


Someone needs to look up the word logic before preaching it. The ONLY thing Cyborg Vader excels in as opposed to precyborg Vader, is force abilities. After studying for 20 years with the emperor he's not impatient nor impulsive. His mastery of the force is more controlled. Eve as a cyborg he still has some of that "Chosen One" potential. However in a saber duel with Anakin, he would get sliced into pieces...

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Someone needs to look up the word logic before preaching it. The ONLY thing Cyborg Vader excels in as opposed to precyborg Vader, is force abilities. After studying for 20 years with the emperor he's not impatient nor impulsive. His mastery of the force is more controlled. Eve as a cyborg he still has some of that "Chosen One" potential. However in a saber duel with Anakin, he would get sliced into pieces...

Someone needs to learn to read properly

OT Cyborg Vader > Pre OT Cyborg Vader. That seems logical to me!

Originally posted by Ogami Itto
Someone needs to learn to read properly

OT Cyborg Vader > Pre OT Cyborg Vader. That seems logical to me!


Whoa, then it's a good thing you're not a logical debater on these forums.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Someone needs to look up the word logic before preaching it. The ONLY thing Cyborg Vader excels in as opposed to precyborg Vader, is force abilities. After studying for 20 years with the emperor he's not impatient nor impulsive. His mastery of the force is more controlled. Eve as a cyborg he still has some of that "Chosen One" potential. However in a saber duel with Anakin, he would get sliced into pieces...

When I said 'pre OT Cyborg Vader', I was still talking about cyborg Vader, just in between ROTS and ANH. Perhaps I should have been clearer, but next time don't go jumping to conclusions.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Who's to say that Malak's lightning is powerful enough for Vader NOT to block it with his lightsaber? We've seen Obiwan do it to Dooku who didn't have a very powerful version of force lightning. Vader has that ability as well.


More importantly guys...Vader could just simply Absorb it through the Force.

Duh?

Malak could use Force Drain on Vader though...

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Vader.


* Has lightsaber resistant armor. (A powerful swing from Luke only sizzled his shoulder).


His armour isen't lightsaber resistant at all...Vader even insisted it be conventional armour.
And Luke only made a glancing blow on Vader in that duel, If he had truely made a full-powered swing, he would have lopped Vader's arm off.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Dessel, how can you even entertain the thought that OT Vader was him in his prime? We haven't seen him during the purge yet. Granted, his force mastery is at its peak during the OT, but there's more than just that, that makes you a complete warrior. Wait till the show comes out and if they show Vader (with modern technology) we most likely see a Vader that we have never seen before. But claim outright that he's in his prime then, is ridiculous.


He will be in his prime in the show...

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Whoa, then it's a good thing you're not a logical debater on these forums.

Fact is your reading comprehension sucks! You thought Dessel was talking about pre suit Vader! Even after i pointed it out to you!!

OT Cyborg Vader > Pre OT Cyborg Vader - What part don't you understand???

Nevermind though, you still have your logic

Originally posted by Dessel
The movie is the highest for of canon, Cyborg Vader is at his peak in them, and GL heavily indicates what is obvious from the movies on the video here - http://starwars.com/episode-i/bts/me1/6.html. Basically, in terms of dueling, PT >>> OT, GL refers to Vader as a 'half crippled droid' (IIRC), and basically confirms that his vision for the PT was to make the duels much faster and more skilled, in contrary to the unskilled, slow duels of the OT.


Hmmm Ogami, doesn't seem like he's talking about suited vader in both instances. Looks like you lose again.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Hmmm Ogami, doesn't seem like he's talking about suited vader in both instances. Looks like you lose again.


Boo-Yah!

he STILL doesn't get it does he?

wtf did that quote have to do with...

OT Cyborg Vader > Pre OT Cyborg Vader ??

Originally posted by Ogami Itto
he STILL doesn't get it does he?

lol , Sexy you're getting rinced out here.

*Smiles and whips out his lightsaber*

Hey, keep talkin' bad about my apprentice, and your the one who'll get rinced - literally.

ROFL. Says the one who can't understand the difference between Presuit Vader and Cyborg Vader

crybabyGod is crying now.....

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
ROFL. Says the one who can't understand the difference between Presuit Vader and Cyborg Vader

Wow.. You kids are hilarious.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Wow.. You kids are hilarious.


Yes, and funny as well!

Ogami, enough. Quit jabbing DS and trying to make this an argument instead of a civil debate. PT Anakin > OT Vader. He's just more powerful. Vader could give him a good fight, but he couldn't handle Anakin's relentless, power-driven fury.

oh God heres another one

Who said that OT Vader could take ROTS Anakin??Nobody!! read the thread dammit

Originally posted by Ogami Itto
oh God heres another one

Who said that OT Vader could take ROTS Anakin??Nobody!! read the thread dammit


Another one? Are you referring to somebody that's NOT allergic to intelligence? You need to stop embarassing yourself with your blatant stupidity.

Look, I hate to break it to you, but no one cares about your opinion. You're not a good debator. All you are is the one guy who comes to the thread after most of the debating has been done, and then you pick the side of the person who closest shares your very pathetic opinion.

Ush proved it a long time ago - Anakin > Vader. Deal with it. The RotS novelization even says that as Vader, Anakin wasn't what he once was. The comparison was made that: "he was like a composer gone deaf, a painter gone blind".

It shouldn't even be a discussion. Pre suit ANakin is superior to Vader. Maybe not in the force but in everything else. If you can't handle it, shut up.

I KNOW Anakin > OT Vader!!

I never once said that all i was concurring with was what dessel said:

OT Cyborg Vader > Pre OT Cyborg Vader.

Whats so hard to understand about that?? and really theres no need for insults children

Oh! I'm sorry. I get it.

And, yeah, you're probably right. I don't see how Vader'd get weaker.

Apology accepted, CPT Needa

Originally posted by Ogami Itto
Apology accepted, CPT Needa

But I'm not dead.

Don't worry it's a delayed choke.

Should kick in sometime within the next 70 years or so

this whole argument seems to have been created by my comment to Dessel. What I said was, the movies are only canonical to THAT era Vader, and wouldn't give us info about Jedi Purge Vader when he was still young. What I was ultimately getting at was, that when he first got in the suit and was still in his 20's, that it seemed logical to ME that there would be a chance he would be faster as a younger man. Thats all. And that he would still have a lot of rage as he wasn't used to being in the suit yet, so he could be more physically active during that time.

since when anakin > Vader? who ever said so, GL stated vader is 80% of sidious, and the novel said vader is half of what he once was, does that mean anakin is 160% of sidious?
No

And by the way, how the hell can PT anakin be stronger and beat OT vader whom is calm and knows his opponents, Vader would know the tactics of anakin because he himself was once anakin. Already vaders mastery of djem so surpasses anakins, And in the 19 years between ROTS and OT, he had a much bigger experience and mastery of the force. In terms of speed yes i see anakin is better but in experience and force mastery alone i see vader here the stronger one.

And there is a quote from palpatine i found intresting, he noted that "sith power resides in the will, not flesh"

Originally posted by Kadesh
since when anakin > Vader? who ever said so, GL stated vader is 80% of sidious, and the novel said vader is half of what he was, does that mean anakin is 160% of sidious?
No
I think you're confused. Anakin was stated to have the potential to be twice as powerful as Sidious, or 200%. When he lost all of his limbs, he became only 80% of Sidious.



Vader is nowhere near Anakin's abilities with the samer by the OT. Him being a machine severely limits his mobility and speed, something Anakin had. It is true though, that he's more powerful in the force.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I think you're confused. Anakin was stated to have the potential to be twice as powerful as Sidious, or 200%. When he lost all of his limbs, he became only 80% of Sidious.
Yes yes i know that, im reffering to ROTS anakin alone whom has not reached his full potential yet. Anyways idont know how true palpatins thoughts are about sith power coming from the will, not the flesh because sion proved this

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Vader is nowhere near Anakin's abilities with the samer by the OT. Him being a machine severely limits his mobility and speed, something Anakin had. It is true though, that he's more powerful in the force. yes true but even still, that only affected his speed, He still proven to have wielded tremendous mastery of the force, His abilities with the force in his suit is better than Anakins in ROTS but duh, FP anakin is obviously too powerful for even vader to contend. Im talking about PT anakin, not FP anakin

irrelevant, PT or OT Vader>Malak

Originally posted by Ogami Itto
irrelevant, PT or OT Vader>Malak


Since when?

Vader is most likely superior to Malak with the force, however this is still not a definite but Malak is most likely better with a saber, this is almost a given.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
this whole argument seems to have been created by my comment to Dessel. What I said was, the movies are only canonical to THAT era Vader, and wouldn't give us info about Jedi Purge Vader when he was still young. What I was ultimately getting at was, that when he first got in the suit and was still in his 20's, that it seemed logical to ME that there would be a chance he would be faster as a younger man. Thats all. And that he would still have a lot of rage as he wasn't used to being in the suit yet, so he could be more physically active during that time.

How would age have any effect whatsoever on the speed of his mechanical limbs.

Originally posted by Darth Sexiest
His armour isen't lightsaber resistant at all...Vader even insisted it be conventional armour.
And Luke only made a glancing blow on Vader in that duel, If he had truely made a full-powered swing, he would have lopped Vader's arm off.

Out of all my points, that's the one you chose to refute?

Anyway, a glancing blow will not result in serious damage, which is more than can be said for flesh.

1) Your quote is screwed up.
2) I know he must be good, but assumptions don't mean anything. Him being near Vader in force abilities is unproven and, given what we've seen Vader do and who he is, wouldn't make sense

Well Malak did do this.

Originally posted by Dessel
He has demonstrated extreme force mastery such as using the force to lift two jedi up, choking the first one while blasting the other with lightning, then throwing his saber into the first one killing him while throwing the second back using the force. These two jedi were clearly very skilled having fought through much of the Star Forge, and Malak just toyed with both of them like they were children. I'd say this feat alone puts him high up on the scales.

Originally posted by Dessel
How would age have any effect whatsoever on the speed of his mechanical limbs.

So every inch of his limbs are mechanical? Since when? He has above his knees and hipflexors and biceps and shoulders, you know the parts of your anatomy that dictates how fast your arms move...coupled of course with your pectorals. Funny how people to include GL, say that he mech limbs make him really slow, yet his right arm was half mech as well and didn't slow him down at all....hmmm. Anyway, as you get older, your joints become stiffer and less mobile. THAT'S how age would have an effect. he lost the lower extremities of his limbs that have NO bearing on speed or mobility. The only CHANCE of that is if his knees were severed as well, but if he still has his human knees then the mech portions would physically have no effect on his speed. However that ignorant canonical statement is unfortunately absolute, so cant argue logic against GL genius.

Originally posted by Dessel
Well Malak did do this.

well vader did this, ripped metal from metal and took on 8 Jedi masters on kessel, swiftly killed 4 of them and one of them sia-lan wezz was a decent and good jedi master who got finished by vader so quickly he could stab and then cut of her hand before she even hit the floor

Originally posted by Kadesh
well vader did this, ripped metal from metal and took on 8 Jedi masters on kessel, swiftly killed 4 of them and one of them sia-lan wezz was a decent and good jedi master who got finished by vader so quickly he could stab and then cut of her hand before she even hit the floor

I love how you fail to mention that Vader nearly got his ass handed to him during that fight...

Now in raw Force Power, I would give this to Vader (perhaps... since it depends), but Vader has this nasty suit that suffers from a major weakness against Force Lightning or hell even an Ion Grenade.

In pure saber ability it is hard to judge since we don't much about Malak's real abilities although as stated on his official profile he was clearly a skilled user.

Vader was also skilled duelist and eventually modified his style to fit his suit, but suffered from being much slower than he was (and don't pull that "but in this comic he moved really fast!" bullshit because in RoTJ he is clearly slow and RoTJ beats any comics/books/games in the canon department) so that's an advantage for Malak. Overall, I don't know who would win this since it depends on to many unknown factors. However, just for shits and giggles, I will submit that Malak will win.

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/6797/sign7bz.png

And that is why you fail.

Originally posted by Blax X
And that is why you fail.

Oh? Please do tell.

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/6797/sign7bz.png

Is this ROTJ Vader?

ok well, vader wins hands down, And no, raw power does not mean you will win 100%, Vader knows how to command the dark side of the force far better than he could in the PT, and that 8 v1 fight, vader nearly got his ass handed because 1, he was fighting 8 people at once 2) he got back stabbed 3) he isnt as strong as vader 19 years later.

By the way, the ancient sith acknoledged vader by building a throne for him on korriban, source? Read Empires end

Originally posted by Kadesh
By the way, the ancient sith acknoledged vader by building a throne for him on korriban, source? Read Empires end

So your saying a bunch of old crotchety Sith Ghosts got of their collective asses and built Vader a throne?




http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/6797/sign7bz.png

well they stated his throne was already there and asked if palpatine was going to take his place.

this is the quote "Emperor palpatine, ruler of numberless worlds, Vaders throne lies empty, have you come to take his place?"

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=77&page=063
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=77&page=064

Vader is much more powerful with the force. I would post like, 20+ links like this, but, swcomics is being slow on my computer, and I already listed these feats (although, they are much more impressive to see).

Sure that's impressive, but Malak has been shown to be able to do things arguably on par with that against actual jedi.

such as?

Well vader has done more impressive things than malak, and the ancients were impressed with him me thinks.

Especially how he fought 8 jedi masters at once, choking 1 other and parrying attacks of the other 3

You mean the Conclave at Kessel?

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
such as?

Refer to my first post.

Originally posted by Dessel
Refer to my first post.

Just a general question as I've not played KOTOR since it came out (nor actually got to the end), but did Malak do this while empowered by the Star Forge?

I think so. Why?

Prove it. No one ever stated malak to be a lightsaber prodigy, Even at that time, sion and nihilus have not even become sith yet

Originally posted by Captain REX
You mean the Conclave at Kessel?

Aimed at you, Kadesh.

Every feat listed to Malak here he attained while supercharged by the Star Forge. Vader, however, gained his feats through purely his own power.

This does NOT take place on the Star Forge. I find it hard to believe that Malak can take this.

Malak remains powered up, whether he's on the SF or not, does he not?

Originally posted by Dessel
Malak remains powered up, whether he's on the SF or not, does he not?

No, it was only when he was on the Star Forge that he was powered up.

Proof?

Originally posted by Dessel
Proof? Asking a dumb question, obviously he can drain the jedis in the tanks to heal his wounds, thats what "powers" him up, and he has the dark side backing him up in the star forge,

Any where else vader will beat malak, in my opinion, he could even use the star forge area to his advantage as proven many times that he does use his sorroundings

Want to stop deliberately ignoring me, Kadesh?

Originally posted by Captain REX
Want to stop deliberately ignoring me, Kadesh?

what? o sorry was reading other peoples post, answer is yes in kessel, sorry for late reply

lol!