Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Two near Galactus level beings against the wrath of the one above all.

What do the people think?

2 Galactus level beings have NO chance against Spectre

NONE!!!!!

Spectre wins 10/10

Spectre drains them of their power cosmic

Originally posted by Juntai
Two near Galactus level beings against the wrath of the one above all.

What do the people think?
Are you serious????

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
Are you serious???? You should see One Dumb Go's post in reply to mine and my subsequent reply in the Anniliation Wave vs DC Earth. It mostly takes place towards the end of the thread.

I guess I shouldn't be astonished though, once he tried to argue that Ganthet is higher up the food chain than Spectre.

Originally posted by Juntai
Two near Galactus level beings against the wrath of the one above all.

What do the people think?



HA HA UR SO FUNNY !

Spectre wins....

Originally posted by Juntai
Two near Galactus level beings against the wrath of the one above all.

What do the people think?

I personally think Spectre takes this every time, but then again, I'm not an expert.

The problem with the match is that there are two characters who have almost no feats at all. The matter that they took down Galactus doesn't actually mean that much, even Vindicator did it. As I said earlier, the guy in Juntai's sig wins.

Spectre wins this.Easy

Both of them are equal to Galactus. But still this isn't their league. Spectre wins here.

Oooohhh sorry I was mistaken....Wolverine wins this.

This is kind of an aside, but if Spectre is so powerful and omnipotent, how was Alex Luthor able to pull strings that set in motion Spectre destroying all magic in the DCU, which led into the Infinite Crisis. It's obviously not infallable, so the proper combination of genius, ingenuity, and power should be able to score a win against it, even as powerful as it is.

Purely hypothetical, of course.

Spectre doesn't always operate at his GEB fighting levels.

But the fact that he can go there, is what nets him the majority over two uninspired characters like T&A.

That's the thing. By on panel occurrances, Spectre's killed more regular non powered humans than he's gone up against cosmic heavyweights, and he's shown to have been outsmarted and out-manuevered by humans, so his low showings outnumber his high showings, though his high showings outweigh his lows. If you were to take into account all of his appearances as a body of work rather than just his high end feats, he's not that impressive. I'm not saying Tenebrous and Aegis would beat Spectre. I don't think 10 "normally" portrayed Galactus' would beat Spectre. I'm just saying away from climaxes in story arcs where there's a "universal" threat, Spectre basically runs around picking on regular humans turning them into candles and melting them or some other abstract snuff, and doesn't really do anything of merit other than taking on a major threat to buy time for the JLA to score a W (like having Parallax throw punches...).

I'm not really impressed.

I totally agree.

His average certainly isn't stellar, but he's done enough big things, to let us know its not a fluke.

But i don't see two giants who merely blast and repeat are gonna do the job.

Now, if they warped reality with a thought, or did something insanely original, then they'd get the nod from me.

Spectre is not easy to take down.

Like is said before I see him draining their power cosmic and using it against them.

Originally posted by illadelph12
That's the thing. By on panel occurrances, Spectre's killed more regular non powered humans than he's gone up against cosmic heavyweights, and he's shown to have been outsmarted and out-manuevered by humans, so his low showings outnumber his high showings, though his high showings outweigh his lows. If you were to take into account all of his appearances as a body of work rather than just his high end feats, he's not that impressive. I'm not saying Tenebrous and Aegis would beat Spectre. I don't think 10 "normally" portrayed Galactus' would beat Spectre. I'm just saying away from climaxes in story arcs where there's a "universal" threat, Spectre basically runs around picking on regular humans turning them into candles and melting them or some other abstract snuff, and doesn't really do anything of merit other than taking on a major threat to buy time for the JLA to score a W (like having Parallax throw punches...).

I'm not really impressed.

Wow. This is the argument I've been making about Spectre for the longest time, but put into a well written paragraph that is easily understood.

Who the hell knows what "regular" spectre is. But if you took full powered spectre.... god only help everyone when Spectre goes looking for T & A.

Spectre would probably only win if it's in the DC universe or anywhere else where he's backed up by the Presence.

Since nobody specified where this battle takes place, you shouldn't immediatedly count out T&A ....


T&A


Edit: Spectre 10/10... all jokes aside

Originally posted by illadelph12
That's the thing. By on panel occurrances, Spectre's killed more regular non powered humans than he's gone up against cosmic heavyweights, and he's shown to have been outsmarted and out-manuevered by humans, so his low showings outnumber his high showings, though his high showings outweigh his lows. If you were to take into account all of his appearances as a body of work rather than just his high end feats, he's not that impressive. I'm not saying Tenebrous and Aegis would beat Spectre. I don't think 10 "normally" portrayed Galactus' would beat Spectre. I'm just saying away from climaxes in story arcs where there's a "universal" threat, Spectre basically runs around picking on regular humans turning them into candles and melting them or some other abstract snuff, and doesn't really do anything of merit other than taking on a major threat to buy time for the JLA to score a W (like having Parallax throw punches...).

I'm not really impressed.

Dealing with regular humans is his job role he seeks sinners and punishes them thats the very purpose of the spectre.

Originally posted by boriquaking55
Spectre would probably only win if it's in the DC universe or anywhere else where he's backed up by the Presence.

Since nobody specified where this battle takes place, you shouldn't immediatedly count out T&A ....


T&A


Edit: Spectre 10/10... all jokes aside

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
HA HA UR SO FUNNY !

Spectre wins....

HA HA and you're not.

"I drink Jesus' sperm"???

You're an assh*le.

Originally posted by illadelph12
That's the thing. By on panel occurrances, Spectre's killed more regular non powered humans than he's gone up against cosmic heavyweights, and he's shown to have been outsmarted and out-manuevered by humans, so his low showings outnumber his high showings, though his high showings outweigh his lows. If you were to take into account all of his appearances as a body of work rather than just his high end feats, he's not that impressive. I'm not saying Tenebrous and Aegis would beat Spectre. I don't think 10 "normally" portrayed Galactus' would beat Spectre. I'm just saying away from climaxes in story arcs where there's a "universal" threat, Spectre basically runs around picking on regular humans turning them into candles and melting them or some other abstract snuff, and doesn't really do anything of merit other than taking on a major threat to buy time for the JLA to score a W (like having Parallax throw punches...).

I'm not really impressed. Alexander Luthor was only able to do that because of Eclipso. He planted the Eclipso diamond to Jean Loring. It's the sister spirit to Spectre, as Eclipso was the original Wrath of God. And it was only able to confuse the rage itself, it wouldn't have happened with a human host. Technically, what happened in Crisis, shouldn't have been able to happen at all. He's supposed to leave the mortal plane when he no longer has a host.

Originally posted by Juntai
Two near Galactus level beings against the wrath of the one above all.

What do the people think?
Juntai, i expected more from u.....

OFCOURCE THE 2 GALACTUS LEVEL BEINGS WIN THIS I BILLION/10!

I know his purpose. He's basically a glorified Ghost Rider. I'm just saying his body of work is not impressive taking all things into consideration, and he's shown on numerous occasions to be fallable and have regular humans outsmart him, per canon accounts.

Now he's up against Thanos, a master manipulator, and a universe conquering armada.

I'm just thinking if Alex Luthor can outsmart him, Thanos could. And I'm also thinking that Annihilus could just destroy DC Earth from orbit and then it's the Annihilation Wave versus the remaining survivors with no back up.

That's not very promising.

Originally posted by illadelph12
That's the thing. By on panel occurrances, Spectre's killed more regular non powered humans than he's gone up against cosmic heavyweights, and he's shown to have been outsmarted and out-manuevered by humans, so his low showings outnumber his high showings, though his high showings outweigh his lows. If you were to take into account all of his appearances as a body of work rather than just his high end feats, he's not that impressive. I'm not saying Tenebrous and Aegis would beat Spectre. I don't think 10 "normally" portrayed Galactus' would beat Spectre. I'm just saying away from climaxes in story arcs where there's a "universal" threat, Spectre basically runs around picking on regular humans turning them into candles and melting them or some other abstract snuff, and doesn't really do anything of merit other than taking on a major threat to buy time for the JLA to score a W (like having Parallax throw punches...).

I'm not really impressed.

Cool sig Illadelph

Originally posted by illadelph12
I know his purpose. He's basically a glorified Ghost Rider. I'm just saying his body of work is not impressive taking all things into consideration, and he's shown on numerous occasions to be fallable and have regular humans outsmart him, per canon accounts.

Now he's up against Thanos, a master manipulator, and a universe conquering armada.

I'm just thinking if Alex Luthor can outsmart him, Thanos could. And I'm also thinking that Annihilus could just destroy DC Earth from orbit and then it's the Annihilation Wave versus the remaining survivors with no back up.

That's not very promising. Well, the Wrath itself is blind, it knows nothing but rage, it can be outsmarted, but never truly defeated. Meanwhile the human host can be confused, which can keep it from making the correct judgements. Once judgement is cast however, that pretty much is his infallibility.

Btw, Alexander Luthor is by no means a regular human.



And this thread isn't the Annihilation Wave, this thread is Aegis and Tenebrous vs Spectre, heads up. Who's more powerful?

Originally posted by Juntai
Alexander Luthor was only able to do that because of Eclipso. He planted the Eclipso diamond to Jean Loring. It's the sister spirit to Spectre, as Eclipso was the original Wrath of God. And it was only able to confuse the rage itself, it wouldn't have happened with a human host. Technically, what happened in Crisis, shouldn't have been able to happen at all. He's supposed to leave the mortal plane when he no longer has a host.

That's what makes Spectre's folly that much worse in that story arc Juntai.

Think about this:

We have a semi-omnipotent being, that is depicted as an aspect of the DC Multiverse's God, that couldn't tell it was falling victim to the machinations of a human villain, but he can track down sinners a galaxy away, supposedly, initiate Big Bangs, and tackle cosmic entities. I know Eclipso is the supposed "Spirit of Revenge" that preceded the Spectre, but on panel and per canon, all Eclipso did was talk the Spectre into destroying universal magic using a bit of circular logic created by Luthor, Eclipso (Loring) was just the messenger. There was no coersion, magic influence, or psionic manipulation applied to the Spectre, it was simply outsmarted by a human being.

On top of that, why wasn't Spectre tipped off once Luthor began his plot. I think plotting a multi-versal event that results in the murder of hundreds of beings is a sin, Spectre should have been prevy of the situation from the jump (being as Spectre is an agent of the Presence and has a level of omnipresence).

So not only did he not see it coming (a mystical aspect of God that seeks vengence on sinners couldn't tell a sin was in process), but on top of that, he was made an unwitting pawn to carry out the sin.

By a human.

Yet he's infallable to a point that Thanos can't pull a fast one on him, but Luthor could?

I know this is Aegis and Tenebrous vs. The Spectre thread. As I said in my first post this is an aside to the argument, and I'm simply continuing the train of thought. Basically, I'm making a point in regards to this topic, and it's relation to the Annihilation Wave thread that spawned this thread (as you pointed out in your earlier post).

Originally posted by illadelph12
That's what makes Spectre's folly that much worse in that story arc Juntai.

Think about this:

We have a semi-omnipotent being, that is depicted as an aspect of the DC Multiverse's God, that couldn't tell it was falling victim to the machinations of a human villain, but he can track down sinners a galaxy away, supposedly, initiate Big Bangs, and tackle cosmic entities. I know Eclipso is the supposed "Spirit of Revenge" that preceded the Spectre, but on panel and per canon, all Eclipso did was talk the Spectre into destroying universal magic using a bit of circular logic created by Luthor, Eclipso (Loring) was just the messenger. There was no coersion, magic influence, or psionic manipulation applied to the Spectre, it was simply outsmarted by a human being.

On top of that, why wasn't Spectre tipped off once Luthor began his plot. I think plotting a multi-versal event that results in the murder of hundreds of beings is a sin, Spectre should have been prevy of the situation from the jump (being as Spectre is an agent of the Presence and has a level of omnipresence).

So not only did he not see it coming (a mystical aspect of God that seeks vengence on sinners couldn't tell a sin was in process), but on top of that, he was made an unwitting pawn to carry out the sin.

By a human.

Yet he's infallable to a point that Thanos can't pull a fast one on him, but Luthor could? To be honest, Spectre wasn't even supposed to be allowed on the mortal plane after Hal's soul left his form. The whole thing is PIS, starting from there. In a forum battle, no this tactic won't work on Spectre. He'll just destroy him.

And none of it would have happened at all, if he had a human soul to make judgements for him.
The Wrath is mad, it was basically driven insane when Jesus died.
That's why it was decreed that to exist on the mortal realm, it needs a human soul to judge for it.
Your judgements on Spectre should take this into account.
You're arguing from a single account, which is far out of character for Spectre.

So a being of blind rage is led by a human's "better judgement and decision making"?

That's supposed to make it infallable?

I'm not just taking the one incident into account, I mean, look back even before the Identity Crisis Arc. If you look at the Spectre's entire history you see him just killing powerless sinners way after the fact. It's nothing Ghost Rider doesn't do/hasn't done.

Now, tackling a particular story arc's villain head up on a couple of occasions (A-Monitor, Parallax), and then going apesh*t on magic users because he got tricked by Luthor are good feats, but his complete body of work isn't staggering. He didn't even kill Black Adam (though he killed Shazam), he turned PS into a rat, Black Alice if more adept, could have been a bigger threat. He's not going to snap his fingers and down a high end being. Shazam, AM, and Parallax put up quite a fight against him, and the character has been shown on panel to be fallable, it's part of the character's premise. Hell, it's led by human judgement. That gives it away right there. That's all I'm saying.

Originally posted by illadelph12
So a blind being of rage is led by a "human's" better judgement and decision making?

That's supposed to make it infallable? That's the Spectre's character.


No, only The Presence is infallable.


But the human host and the Logoz working as one are nigh unstoppable. And have shown the ability to accomplish pretty much anything. They NEED eachother. That's the essence of the character. If you happened to read the 3 part mini after Crisis, Crispus Allen even said "I get the idea that it needs me, more than I need it."
Spectre's power however speaks for itself.
But I can see now that you're casting judgement and know very little to nothing of the actual character involved.

If you say so Juntai.

I'm just saying that the character has been duped before, so it's not beyond the realm of possibility. It's not that I don't know the character, I simply have an objective viewpoint.

Originally posted by illadelph12
If you say so Juntai.

I'm just saying that the character has been duped before, so it's not beyond the realm of possibility. It's not that I don't know the character, I simply have an objective viewpoint. And I'm not saying he's unbeatable, but in a heads up battle, he might as well be.

"Who can possibly beat the Spectre?"

Originally posted by Juntai
Depends on how much prep, plot devices and PIS is involved, and if he's going crazy or not.
Typically to stop him or foil his plans it takes all of those at once, and even then it's not assured and usually doesn't work in the end, just stalls him. Which is true enough.

Since Juntai thought it wise to start a new thread. Why not. Let's do it. I'll repost and edit some things from the older source thread and clean it up a bit.

Illadelph12 has excellent points. For a piece of God, he sure is stupid and easily manipulated. Not only that, but he moved against God's will and was punished. The comparison has been made and it works, Spectre is a glorified Ghost Rider. Living Tribunal never gets jobbed like this. For Juntai's credit, he came up with one argument: Bad writing. Thanks for nothing. This 'writing' has been going on for years, and i respect all the DC authors and editors' depiction of Spectre, more than I do your opinion and willingness to disregard continuity.

But I'm not going to simply piggyback Illadelph12's arguments. I'll add to them. Spectre has not just been shown to be easily manipulated and downright stupid at times. He has also been definitively shown to have limits. He couldn't do crap to Parallax. Truth. Read 'Green Lantern: Rebirth.' I don't give a crap about Hallax from 'Zero Hour' (otherwise known as the sequel DC wishes they could forget). I'm talking about the cosmic personification of fear...

Spectre and the Wrath of God could not do anything, in fact his powers were being manipulated by Parallax, subverted. Hence, the analogy that Spectre seems essentially ineffective against cosmic beings that appear to be part of the cosmic consonance. Because Spectre is in fact, ineffective against things. Parallax being one of them, antimatter being another. Limits.

Another argument as to why Spectre has NOTHING on Galactus. As it has been pointed out, Spectre's only role is to judge beings who do wrong and carry out wrathful judgement upon them. So in the cosmic scheme of life and God's plan, how can Galactus ever be judged? He is beyond morals and judgement, there is no wrong to be judged, no wrath to be assessed. Galactus is far more than a giant with a purple suit who eats worlds. He is the the End and Beginning of all that is.

And one who is outside the emo concept of right and wrong is beyond Spectre's power. This is how I would imagine if FP Spectre ever ran after FP Galactus, had he been manipulated again. Spectre would destroy all that is, maybe even kill Eternity to kill Galactus. Since no life remained, Death would probably disappear also as her role is complete. It'd be nothing but pure blackness and Galactus and Spectre floating in space. Galactus would turn to him and say, "I remain, because I am the new beginning. You're wrath does not impede the cycle of all that is. Now go to a corner and put your dunce cap on."

Another point, since you guys are so focused on 'wrath of god' terms. Literal 'Wrath of God' sure does sound impressive. But if you want to consider Spectre in his role as God's Wrath, please tell me the appropriate analogy of how Galactus fits into God's plan or what role he plays. You constantly harp about Galactus not being on par with the Wrath of God? Are you kidding me? What are you guys, so in love with wrath and being emo that you can't figure out what being the alpha and omega of existence, is in terms of God? He is the personification of the 'Cycle of God.' He is the 'Balance Bringer.' Compared to the engine of wrath who judges wrong or right in mortals, Galactus is higher up on the food chain here. Don't let the costume fool you because you ought to be more intelligent than that.

Aegis and Tenebrous, feared even by Galactus and as far as we've been told, his peers and equals. No contest when you amp them all to full power. What roles, Aegis and Tenebrous serve in the cosmic consonance will be interesting to discover. If Aegis and Tenebrous do not serve an important function of the universe, they may very well be DOA when Spectre comes around. But until then, they are every bit Galactus' equal and therefore, over Spectre.

And just to cut this thread short, these are the arguments to be made and rebutted. I don't want to see scans of Galactus being staggered by Thor and some emo Spectre freak screaming how Spectre could never be hurt by that. Otherwise, I'll school you. And if there is a guy who's reading this and is 10 seconds away from posting such drivel and still doesn't understand why, I'll spell it out for you: 1) You want to use FP Spectre's high end feats as proof, consider Galactus/Aegis and Tenebrous at full power; 2) You want to consider Spectre's role in God's plan, consider Galactus' role in God's plan and since we've been shown nothign else, consider Aegis and Tenebrous' role to be on par.

Lastly, I have no respect for arguments made that continue to assert that the past 4 years of writing are to be ignored, simply for the sake of holding onto some discarded fan favorite version of a character. If Annihilation 6 came out tomorrow and the next 4 years of Marvel writing portrayed Galactus to be a deluded Celestial, would you let me disregard that? I think not. Spectre is what he is. Spectre has really had a lot to do in recent years. Deal with it. You don't like it, fine, criticize it all you want. But don't come to KMC and expect such blindness to pass as logic.

EDIT: And if you're interested in my theory as to why Spectre is being treated the way he is and how his current state could be easily be reconciled with what you know about him, I'll tell you. But I'd like to focus on this debate for now. I like taking unpopular opinions that I believe are right. It's a challenge to smash preconceptions.

Isn't a full power Spectre, just like a full power Galactus?
(not in power of course)

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

EDIT: And if you're interested in my theory as to why Spectre is being treated the way he is and how his current state could be easily be reconciled with what you know about him, I'll tell you. But I'd like to focus on this debate for now. I like taking unpopular opinions that I believe are right. It's a challenge to smash preconceptions.

I honestly am interested. Have you posted your theory somewhere to be read?

Spectre Living Tribunal Michael Morningstar Phoenix Thanos HOTU Thanos IG all of those characters from DC and Marvel are not omnipotent There creators are omnipotent the others are lackeys...

The word omnipotent is severely molested in the comics, that is nothing new...

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Since Juntai thought it wise to start a new thread. Why not. Let's do it. I'll repost and edit some things from the older source thread and clean it up a bit.

Illadelph12 has excellent points. For a piece of God, he sure is stupid and easily manipulated. Not only that, but he moved against God's will and was punished. The comparison has been made and it works, Spectre is a glorified Ghost Rider. Living Tribunal never gets jobbed like this. For Juntai's credit, he came up with one argument: Bad writing. Thanks for nothing. This 'writing' has been going on for years, and i respect all the DC authors and editors' depiction of Spectre, more than I do your opinion and willingness to disregard continuity.

But I'm not going to simply piggyback Illadelph12's arguments. I'll add to them. Spectre has not just been shown to be easily manipulated and downright stupid at times. He has also been definitively shown to have limits. He couldn't do crap to Parallax. Truth. Read 'Green Lantern: Rebirth.' I don't give a crap about Hallax from 'Zero Hour' (otherwise known as the sequel DC wishes they could forget). I'm talking about the cosmic personification of fear...

Spectre and the Wrath of God could not do anything, in fact his powers were being manipulated by Parallax, subverted. Hence, the analogy that Spectre seems essentially ineffective against cosmic beings that appear to be part of the cosmic consonance. Because Spectre is in fact, ineffective against things. Parallax being one of them, antimatter being another. Limits.

Another argument as to why Spectre has NOTHING on Galactus. As it has been pointed out, Spectre's only role is to judge beings who do wrong and carry out wrathful judgement upon them. So in the cosmic scheme of life and God's plan, how can Galactus ever be judged? He is beyond morals and judgement, there is no wrong to be judged, no wrath to be assessed. Galactus is far more than a giant with a purple suit who eats worlds. He is the the End and Beginning of all that is.

And one who is outside the emo concept of right and wrong is beyond Spectre's power. This is how I would imagine if FP Spectre ever ran after FP Galactus, had he been manipulated again. Spectre would destroy all that is, maybe even kill Eternity to kill Galactus. Since no life remained, Death would probably disappear also as her role is complete. It'd be nothing but pure blackness and Galactus and Spectre floating in space. Galactus would turn to him and say, "I remain, because I am the new beginning. You're wrath does not impede the cycle of all that is. Now go to a corner and put your dunce cap on."

Another point, since you guys are so focused on 'wrath of god' terms. Literal 'Wrath of God' sure does sound impressive. But if you want to consider Spectre in his role as God's Wrath, please tell me the appropriate analogy of how Galactus fits into God's plan or what role he plays. You constantly harp about Galactus not being on par with the Wrath of God? Are you kidding me? What are you guys, so in love with wrath and being emo that you can't figure out what being the alpha and omega of existence, is in terms of God? He is the personification of the 'Cycle of God.' He is the 'Balance Bringer.' Compared to the engine of wrath who judges wrong or right in mortals, Galactus is higher up on the food chain here. Don't let the costume fool you because you ought to be more intelligent than that.

Aegis and Tenebrous, feared even by Galactus and as far as we've been told, his peers and equals. No contest when you amp them all to full power. What roles, Aegis and Tenebrous serve in the cosmic consonance will be interesting to discover. If Aegis and Tenebrous do not serve an important function of the universe, they may very well be DOA when Spectre comes around. But until then, they are every bit Galactus' equal and therefore, over Spectre.

And just to cut this thread short, these are the arguments to be made and rebutted. I don't want to see scans of Galactus being staggered by Thor and some emo Spectre freak screaming how Spectre could never be hurt by that. Otherwise, I'll school you. And if there is a guy who's reading this and is 10 seconds away from posting such drivel and still doesn't understand why, I'll spell it out for you: 1) You want to use FP Spectre's high end feats as proof, consider Galactus/Aegis and Tenebrous at full power; 2) You want to consider Spectre's role in God's plan, consider Galactus' role in God's plan and since we've been shown nothign else, consider Aegis and Tenebrous' role to be on par.

Lastly, I have no respect for arguments made that continue to assert that the past 4 years of writing are to be ignored, simply for the sake of holding onto some discarded fan favorite version of a character. If Annihilation 6 came out tomorrow and the next 4 years of Marvel writing portrayed Galactus to be a deluded Celestial, would you let me disregard that? I think not. Spectre is what he is. Spectre has really had a lot to do in recent years. Deal with it. You don't like it, fine, criticize it all you want. But don't come to KMC and expect such blindness to pass as logic.

EDIT: And if you're interested in my theory as to why Spectre is being treated the way he is and how his current state could be easily be reconciled with what you know about him, I'll tell you. But I'd like to focus on this debate for now. I like taking unpopular opinions that I believe are right. It's a challenge to smash preconceptions. So you still didn't comprehend Rebirth after half a dozen people broke it down for you back in the Ganthet thread? Or have you continued to ignore it all this time still?
Spectre wasn't unable to do anything.
It needed Hal to make the Judgement. I already pointed out earlier, the host and The Wrath need eachother.
Funny how you believe he's capable of taking of cosmics or cosmic personification when his IN series battles have been against Satan itself.., and the embodiment of dispair and the embodiment of doubt, the embodiment of womens sufferage And several more.

. . it begs the question, have you ever actually read a The Spectre comic, or just random appearances?

Galactus is not higher on the food chain, don't delude yourself. Spectre is the Wrath of God, and the guardian of the omniverse, a piece of God itself..

He created reality as we know it, and remade it multiple times over..Something neither Galactus, nor Tenebrous, nor Aegis have ever shown.

This is about power, that's what battles are about, not station.
Spectre has shown more power through his last 5 years than Aeigis Tenebrous and Galactus have ever shown us, combined. What would lead you to believe they actually had a shot?

Don't even worry about the theoretical 'he would have to have a reason to be judged' crap either, this is a hypothetical forum pitting one character against another based on the powers they've shown.

If you've got something to bring to the table in defense of tenebrous and aegis, that would make anyone think he defeat Spectre in terms of on panel feats, or shit, even hyperbole... try it. We'll compare it up.


You'll also notice, you're the only one actually arguing in favor of T&A. Illadelph isn't arguing against Spectre at all, just giving a viewpoint and asking question, and I obliged in answering best I could.

This line of reasoning does beg the question though:

Does Spectre's jurisdiction allow him to destroy concepts of creation that aren't sinners, are amoral, and are the basis of existence? Could Spectre wipe out the Endless without provocation, or would that go againt the Presence's plan, and therefore, would Spectre be rebuked and his actions nullified?

Originally posted by illadelph12
This line of reasoning does beg the question though:

Does Spectre's jurisdiction allow him to destroy concepts of creation that aren't sinners, are amoral, and are the basis of existence? Could Spectre wipe out the Endless without provocation, or would that go againt the Presence's plan, and therefore, would Spectre be rebuked and his actions nullified? Those have nothing to do with a hypothetical battle, and he doesn't need to destroy anything for a win, just KO them. Judging by feats, I'd say he has the power output over the opponents of the thread in spades.

I'm personally not disputing that Juntai, as you know. On panel, as of now, Tenebrous & Aegis haven't done anything but overwhelm Surfer and Galactus and "eat" the Fallen One, so comparing feats of them to Spectre is kind of futile because the characters have only existed for a few months compared to Spectre's 6 decades of history. Feats are a bit subjective anyway. I've always wondered why this board is so against supposed PIS (Plot induced stupidity) when feats, by their nature, are simply PIG (Plot induced greatness). Low showings and high showings are all plot induced and make up the nature of the character, so you should have to take it all into consideration, not just the highs. I've always found that hypocritical. So long as the writer is putting a character in a good light no one complains, but portray the character to show any traits of weakness and it's bad writing and should be dismissed? Personally, even in a hypothetical fight, I feel it's necessary to consider the nature of the parties involved.

I'm simply presenting a question:

Granted, Spectre is the spirit of vengence/God's Wrath, but there are some beings or concepts that don't incur God's Wrath, and by extension, are absolved from it. So long as they are performing their God given function Spectre has no business with them. If you pit Spectre in a fight against one of these personified concepts that isn't acting outside of it's role, what can he really do to them? Anti-Monitor, Parallax, etc. I'll grant you. But how would Spectre fair against the Endless? Aren't the Endless DC's analogues of Marvel's Abstracts?

Originally posted by Juntai
So you still didn't comprehend Rebirth after half a dozen people broke it down for you back in the Ganthet thread? Or have you continued to ignore it all this time still?
Spectre wasn't unable to do anything.
It needed Hal to make the Judgement. I already pointed out earlier, the host and The Wrath need eachother.
Funny how you believe he's capable of taking of cosmics or cosmic personification when his IN series battles have been against Satan itself.., and the embodiment of dispair and the embodiment of doubt, the embodiment of womens sufferage And several more.

. . it begs the question, have you ever actually read a The Spectre comic, or just random appearances?

Galactus is not higher on the food chain, don't delude yourself. Spectre is the Wrath of God, and the guardian of the omniverse, a piece of God itself..

He created reality as we know it, and remade it multiple times over..Something neither Galactus, nor Tenebrous, nor Aegis have ever shown.

This is about power, that's what battles are about, not station.
Spectre has shown more power through his last 5 years than Aeigis Tenebrous and Galactus have ever shown us, combined. What would lead you to believe they actually had a shot?

Don't even worry about the theoretical 'he would have to have a reason to be judged' crap either, this is a hypothetical forum pitting one character against another based on the powers they've shown.

If you've got something to bring to the table in defense of tenebrous and aegis, that would make anyone think he defeat Spectre in terms of on panel feats, or shit, even hyperbole... try it. We'll compare it up.


You'll also notice, you're the only one actually arguing in favor of T&A. Illadelph isn't arguing against Spectre at all, just giving a viewpoint and asking question, and I obliged in answering best I could. 'Green Lantern: Rebirth' was very clear for me. And your version is incorrect. You posit that Spectre's power could not be brought to bear on Parallax because Hal wouldn't let him; Spectre requires the host's acquiescence in order to cast wrath and power. Hal did not throw a switch to allow Spectre to judge Parallax. Spectre went around killing people with his powers without a host directly after 'Rebirth' without a host. Therefore, your theory is DOA on that theory alone. The true version of the events in 'Rebirth' were that Hal weakened Parallax by embracing his greatest fear and overcoming it. Because Parallax requires fear in the soul to latch onto, Hal's overcoming of fear loosened Parallax's grip on him. By loosening his grip on him, Parallax concomitantly lost his grip on the Spectre's power which was directly connected with Hal's soul.

You never toppled my points and I actually went further and reconciled everything you said with my interpretation of Spectre. You did not. In fact, you used the excuse of PIS more often than my tastes normally allow. Then you and your friend started going off on tangents to avoid having to own up to your failures. I had never seen so many retreats and topic changes in any thread as that one. And ALL of the topic and subject changes were initiated by you and your friend. You've read more Spectre historically, I'll admit that. But you continue to disregard a lot of what's going on currently and it smells of bias. You disregarded his ineffectuality against Parallax itself, you disregard his susceptibility to mere manipulation, you disregard vulnerabilities like antimatter. And as always, when people bring up good points you argue PIS... even further than that, you try to define the parameters of how we're allowed to argue. Let me illustrate that here:

1) Just because we all agree Spectre is a piece of God is not dispositive of Galactus' own importance. Marvel has never gone to such definite lengths to define who is what to God. But be very clear, because you continue to avoid this point: Galactus' role in the universe is to balance and eventually be the end and beginning. Spectre's role is to cast wrath upon those who do evil. Reduced even further, you're comparing The Necessary Being For Balance and the Cycle of the Universe vs. The Bringer of God's Wrath. There is no logic in believing the latter is more important than the former.

-And then your old familiar move happens again, topic change, except it's even more overt than just ignoring what I said and bringing up something new-

2) Your next point is to put those arguments in a box and ignore them. All of a sudden, we have to follow your directions and make this debate about a feat comparison thread in terms of pure power. This isn't feat vs feat. KMC vs. battles have never been reduced to such simple-minded arguments. The fact is, if someone is immune from another's powers, that's an advantage. Just because Havok has greater destructive power in low and high showings than Cyclops, means nothing about Havok definitively overpowering through feats and thus beating Cyclops, when Cyclops is immune to his power. In that respect, you look at more than power showings. If Galactus is above good and evil and not subject to judgement for his actions, how can the Wrath of God possibly do anything to him?

You insinuate that I cannot even talk about how Galactus is above judgement through abstract principles of how their respective roles work in the cosmic consonance. AND YET, hypocritically in your first posts you squealed about how the Wrath of God can't be beaten by anyone. You're throwing mud at everyone but yourself.

You then try to paint yourself as a very reasonable person by comparing my posts with Illadelph12's. But your treatment is exactly the same:

Essentially Juntai: "Even though I had made character roles the highlights of my initial arguments, I don't care about your counter-points anymore, because you can only argue the way I want you to argue. And character roles no longer count. I want to talk only about feats."

Your treatments of my posts and Illadelph12's posts are the same and the fact is, everything that's been thrown to doubt your opinion of the fight, whether by argumentative posts by myself or questions which raise doubts by Illadelph12, you've chalked up to PIS or downright childish ignorance. If you want to pout and take your ball and go home that's fine. Don't expect either of us to suddenly agree with your version when you can't or refuse to reconcile our legitimate arguments/questions with your theories.

In the next post, I'll reconcile exactly what the hell's been going on with the Spectre since someone asked.

Originally posted by illadelph12
By a human.

Yet he's infallable to a point that Thanos can't pull a fast one on him, but Luthor could?

I don't think that's a fair comparison. What Alex pulled off makes Thanos look like a stillborn child. He pulled off multiverse creating/shaking powers without "infinity gems" or "Hotu's" lying around.

The guy's IC plan was genius in every sense of the word.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
'Green Lantern: Rebirth' was very clear for me. And your version is incorrect. You posit that Spectre's power could not be brought to bear on Parallax because Hal wouldn't let him; Spectre requires the host's acquiescence in order to cast wrath and power. Hal did not throw a switch to allow Spectre to judge Parallax. Spectre went around killing people with his powers without a host directly after 'Rebirth' without a host. Therefore, your theory is DOA on that theory alone. The true version of the events in 'Rebirth' were that Hal weakened Parallax by embracing his greatest fear and overcoming it. Because Parallax requires fear in the soul to latch onto, Hal's overcoming of fear loosened Parallax's grip on him. By loosening his grip on him, Parallax concomitantly lost his grip on the Spectre's power which was directly connected with Hal's soul.

You never toppled my points and I actually went further and reconciled everything you said with my interpretation of Spectre. You did not. In fact, you used the excuse of PIS more often than my tastes normally allow. Then you and your friend started going off on tangents to avoid having to own up to your failures. I had never seen so many retreats and topic changes in any thread as that one. And ALL of the topic and subject changes were initiated by you and your friend. You've read more Spectre historically, I'll admit that. But you continue to disregard a lot of what's going on currently and it smells of bias. You disregarded his ineffectuality against Parallax itself, you disregard his susceptibility to mere manipulation, you disregard vulnerabilities like antimatter. And as always, when people bring up good points you argue PIS... even further than that, you try to define the parameters of how we're allowed to argue. Let me illustrate that here:

1) Just because we all agree Spectre is a piece of God is not dispositive of Galactus' own importance. Marvel has never gone to such definite lengths to define who is what to God. But be very clear, because you continue to avoid this point: Galactus' role in the universe is to balance and eventually be the end and beginning. Spectre's role is to cast wrath upon those who do evil. Reduced even further, you're comparing The Necessary Being For Balance and the Cycle of the Universe vs. The Bringer of God's Wrath. There is no logic in believing the latter is more important than the former.

-And then your old familiar move happens again, topic change, except it's even more overt than just ignoring what I said and bringing up something new-

2) Your next point is to put those arguments in a box and ignore them. All of a sudden, we have to follow your directions and make this debate about a feat comparison thread in terms of pure power. This isn't feat vs feat. KMC vs. battles have never been reduced to such simple-minded arguments. The fact is, if someone is immune from another's powers, that's an advantage. Just because Havok has greater destructive power in low and high showings than Cyclops, means nothing about Havok definitively overpowering through feats and thus beating Cyclops, when Cyclops is immune to his power. In that respect, you look at more than power showings. If Galactus is above good and evil and not subject to judgement for his actions, how can the Wrath of God possibly do anything to him?

You insinuate that I cannot even talk about how Galactus is above judgement through abstract principles of how their respective roles work in the cosmic consonance. AND YET, hypocritically in your first posts you squealed about how the Wrath of God can't be beaten by anyone. You're throwing mud at everyone but yourself.

You then try to paint yourself as a very reasonable person by comparing my posts with Illadelph12's. But your treatment is exactly the same:

Essentially Juntai: "Even though I had made character roles the highlights of my initial arguments, I don't care about your counter-points anymore, because you can only argue the way I want you to argue. And character roles no longer count. I want to talk only about feats."

Your treatments of my posts and Illadelph12's posts are the same and the fact is, everything that's been thrown to doubt your opinion of the fight, whether by argumentative posts by myself or questions which raise doubts by Illadelph12, you've chalked up to PIS or downright childish ignorance. If you want to pout and take your ball and go home that's fine. Don't expect either of us to suddenly agree with your version when you can't or refuse to reconcile our legitimate arguments/questions with your theories.

In the next post, I'll reconcile exactly what the hell's been going on with the Spectre since someone asked. All of that intelligence, and yet you've brought nothing to the table to convince anyone that Tenebrous nor Aegis have what it takes to defeat Spectre. Give me feats, give me text, give me anything. A good 80% of your entire post circles around what you think I'm doing, and your thoughts of it. Stick to your guns; Tenebrous and Aegis.

Where do you get stuff like this pouting and taking my ball home analogy? It's laughable at best you try to degrade me through an entire post, and give nothing to support the characters you're debating for, and their chances against the Wrath of God. You're acting as if I'm upset about the happenings here.. Why would I be upset? I've no reason to be. For all your long-winded-ness.. you've really said very little.


Everyone's agreeing Spectre wins, even Illidelph isn't disputing the victory. Only you. A few people even thought it was a joke thread back at the beginning.


Spectre doesn't have to outright destroy Aegis or Tenebrous for the victory, merely defeat them. Which he's certainly shown the type of power that could accomplish such a goal....Meanwhile you've done nothing to suggests either of them being neccisary to the existance of Marvel in either case..besides the idea that they're up in POWER with Galactus... that's why your debate circles around Galactus instead, who is NOT in this thread at all, therefore not viable in any way towards this.

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
I don't think that's a fair comparison. What Alex pulled off makes Thanos look like a stillborn child. He pulled off multiverse creating/shaking powers without "infinity gems" or "Hotu's" lying around.

The guy's IC plan was genius in every sense of the word.

Tenebrous and Aegis beating Spectre????
just because they were able to beat Galactus?
Spectre has taken away Mr Mxy's powers like nothing and we all know that Mr mxy would make these 2 his pets.

Well, after once again addressing your points and arguing against them, you change the topic again. Your assertions about Hal/Spectre/Parallax relationship, Spectre/host relationship, Galactus' place in the food chain and all my counter-points... once again, placed in a box and unrefuted. That's a right smart move you make there, Juntai. Forgetting about Galactus since it is quite obvious how vulnerable your position is and move back onto Tenebrous and Aegis. I'd call this a retreat, but it's not totally fair to say that because that is the title of this thread.

Essentially, you're saying Tenebrous and Aegis don't have much to show, so stop talking about Galactus. Let me tell you why I talk about Galactus so much and why I believe all my arguments are still exactly on point for this thread. One, in my first post, after giving my opinions on Spectre and Galactus I said, paraphrasing of course, "That as far as we know, Tenebrous and Aegis are Galactus' peers and equals." Therefore, I've been applying my arguments through analogy.

You did not refute this point with me up until now. Apparently, you disagree with it. But I suppose it is a fair question. Just because they are his peers and equals, why automatically assume they are as powerful... or indeed, as important as Galactus? If that is what you want to talk about... fine. You changed the topic to cover your tracks of never replying to my counter-points, I don't care. I'll take every new topic change gladly because I consider it a weakening of your position when you do not counter my points.

Juntai's New Topic: If I've got such a hard-on as to why Galactus is indeed more important to existence than Spectre, I should prove Aegis and Tenebrous to be on the same level before applying analogy to this thread. Fair enough. Where do I get this assumption? 'Annihilation' itself only shows them in flashbacks and you can't get much out of there appearances other than, they are in fact Galactus' equals in power, both stated and seen in action. What about their roles in the cosmic consonance however? Well, you get it from Silver Surfer: Annihilation.

In Silver Surfer: Annihilation, Aegis and Tenebrous are described as, "Proemial Elders. Serving to make ready the way for that which follows." Now we know their roles are the exact same as Galactus'. Galactus himself, also refers to all of them collectively as, "We of the cosmic balance."

So how does all this bear on your point that Aegis and Tenebrous are not Galactus' equals? I pretty much proved you wrong. How does this bear on Galactus having nothing to do with this thread? I say, I pretty much proved you wrong again because they are equals. It's there in black and white, they are equals in power and peers in the role of cosmic balance. The only reason I've been talking more about Galactus is because we've seen more of Galactus and can determine how Aegis and Tenebrous would be in hypos, through simple logic and analogy. Now what happens? I'm going to try to get back to the argument at hand. I'll even address your points on power and feats.

1) Your FP Spectre has done some pretty badass stuff. Destroying and remaking the universe is quite badass. But how does that bear on Aegis and Tenebrous? We already know that they've survived the destruction of the universe, so how would a feat like destroying the universe affect them? It wouldn't. What does Spectre do in the first round, immediately destroy and recreate the universe? Guess who's still there? Not only that, but we still haven't even seen FP Aegis or FP Tenebrous. As KMC forum rules go, you put them at their peak powers. From what I've seen of your arguments, you are quite happy throwing FP Spectre and all of his feats at current Aegis and Tenebrous. This is an absolute playing of the field. It's fair to say we haven't seen what power they wield at full capacity, but you actually expect me to not put them into the fight at full power? C'mon now. It's easy enough. Because it's definitive that they are in every way equal to Galactus, FP Galactus is a good source from which to work from. And as agreed, FP Galactus is the End and the Beginning of Everything. Check.

2) Now it is incredibly interesting that you bring up that Spectre would not have to destroy them, only defeat them. The same could be said in reverse. So... essentially Aegis and tenebrous would just have to knock out the Spectre, right? We've seen Spectre knocked out before. In his battle with the Anti-Monitor, we was powerless afterwards and in a state of coma. There, he fought the Anti-Monitor (while augmented by the power of magic) and for simplicity's sake (since you and I disagree on this, but I'll adopt your version), he also receated the universe. This exhausted him and knocked him out. Could FP Aegis and FP Tenebrous put Spectre to task just as well and do that while avoiding being destroyed? I think so.

FP Spectre gets mad, FP Aegis and FP Tenebrous basically stalemating him since Spectre cannot bring any power onto them for bear since they serve cosmic consonance. FP Spectre decides to use his biggest feat, like Superman using T-Vo, destroys the universe and recreates it in hopes of it destroying FP Aegis and FP Tenebrous. It's like reverse-BFR. He doesn't remove them from the battlefield, he removes the battlefield and everything else! Oh, but wait. They've not only already survived Big Crunches but also Big Bangs. So they'd survive not only the destruction, but the rebirth of the universe... and Spectre would be knocked out from exhaustion, a la 'Crisis on Infinite Earths.'

Now look. You and I know what this thread is really about. You can't stand the thought of someone having the opinion that Spectre is somehow lower on the totem pole than Galactus, let alone characters who come out of the blue and are also the equals of Galactus. That's fine. But when you put the Creator's "avatar of vengeance" against the Creator's "bringers of balance and enders and beginners of all that is," the opinion is not that hard to swallow. In fact, it's quite logical. And look, if you still believe that "casting wrath on evildoers" is more important then "bringing balance to the universe and serving the way of all that is," then that's what you believe. And as preposterous and ridiculous as it sounds to me, so be it. Bottom-line, you think vengeance is more important than cosmic balance. Whatever, if emo is your thing, go for it. No, wait. In fact, let me have you speak for yourself. Answer my question:

"Is casting vengeance on evildoers more important than bringing balance to the universe by being the end and beginning of all that is?"

I expect no answer. Which is fine. I don't expect an answer, I don't expect you to own up to where you're clearly wrong and I don't expect you to refute ANY of my rebuttals of your arguments. You're interested in your perception of things and that's it. You're smart too. But debate wise, you're incorrigible and it's a waste of my time when trying to convince a debater who: 1) doesn't refute my rebuttals and 2) who wants to confine the debate to his perception of things. For a while now, I've actually kept going on to every issue you bring up, but it's never enough.

You don't debate, you self-proclaim. Call it a personal attack if you want, but a debate is worthless when carried forth in such a manner. Thread's done, peace.

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
Tenebrous and Aegis beating Spectre????
just because they were able to beat Galactus?
Spectre has taken away Mr Mxy's powers like nothing and we all know that Mr mxy would make these 2 his pets.

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
Tenebrous and Aegis beating Spectre????
just because they were able to beat Galactus?
Spectre has taken away Mr Mxy's powers like nothing and we all know that Mr mxy would make these 2 his pets. I guess I'll take one last swing. Because while I don't enjoy wasting my breath, I do enjoy slapping posts like this down like a red-headed step-child.

Spectre beat Mxy? Yay. Is Mxy necessary to the cosmic consonance in the way Galactus is? No. Are you referring to what Mxy would do to weakened Galactus or FP Galactus? What did you say? Did I hear an, "Oops?"

Sit down.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I guess I'll take one last swing. Because while I don't enjoy wasting my breath, I do enjoy slapping posts like this down like a red-headed step-child.

Spectre beat Mxy? Yay. Is Mxy necessary to the cosmic consonance in the way Galactus is? No. Are you referring to what Mxy would do to weakened Galactus or FP Galactus? What did you say? Did I hear an, "Oops?"

Sit down.
Mr Mxy would turn Fp Galactus into a dog.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I guess I'll take one last swing. Because while I don't enjoy wasting my breath, I do enjoy slapping posts like this down like a red-headed step-child.

Spectre beat Mxy? Yay. Is Mxy necessary to the cosmic consonance in the way Galactus is? No. Are you referring to what Mxy would do to weakened Galactus or FP Galactus? What did you say? Did I hear an, "Oops?"

Sit down.
Who cares if Mr Mxy is necessary or not? He is far more powerfull then those 2 combined .

I'll admit, I haven't read much Mxy. You really think Mxy could beat FP Galactus? Hmph. Do you think it's worth making a thread about? Maybe some Mxy expert will drop in and show me all sorts of neat stuff. Hijacking your idea and making a thread.

How would Spectre fair against The Endless if he were to attack them of his own free will, but they hadn't done anything wrong, and he wasn't commissioned by the Presence to do so

Mr Mxy would smoke Full power Galactus . You can make a thread about it if you want to but I'm sure that atleast 90% of the debaters will say he would beat galactus.

I have to partially agree with OneDumbGo here. Really, I wonder whether Spectre could judge Galactus or not and I PERSONALLY think he couldn't do that. However, as far as I know, there has been no evidence given to support the fact that Aegis and Tenebrous are necessary to the universe or have a position similar to that of Galactus'. Granted, it has been said on panel that they are as powerful as Galactus, but I think there is no factual information about them being above judgement. There is a good bunch of powerful people, who even might be able to take on Galactus, but yet they are not above judgement.

I even suppose that Juntai (Sorry to point out a specific person, but I think you might have a piece of evidence relevant to the statement I'm giving here.) might know a character who is near Galactus in power, or even above that, and was taken down by Spectre.

EDIT: Spectre depowered Mr. Mxy! That was the guy I was looking for. Well, feel free to post other examples...

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
Tenebrous and Aegis beating Spectre????
just because they were able to beat Galactus?
Spectre has taken away Mr Mxy's powers like nothing and we all know that Mr mxy would make these 2 his pets.

Originally posted by Tshern
I have to partially agree with OneDumbGo here. Really, I wonder whether Spectre could judge Galactus or not and I PERSONALLY think he couldn't do that. However, as far as I know, there has been no evidence given to support the fact that Aegis and Tenebrous are necessary to the universe or have a position similar to that of Galactus'. Granted, it has been said on panel that they are as powerful as Galactus, but I think there is no factual information about them being above judgement. There is a good bunch of powerful people, who even might be able to take on Galactus, but yet they are not above judgement.

I even suppose that Juntai (Sorry to point out a specific person, but I think you might have a piece of evidence relevant to the statement I'm giving here.) might know a character who is near Galactus in power, or even above that, and was taken down by Spectre.

EDIT: Spectre depowered Mr. Mxy! That was the guy I was looking for. Well, feel free to post other examples...
How about taking Judgement on Parallax?

Yeah, I edited that to my message. I just had a total blackout and forgot about Mxy. Thanks for that, Juggy.

Spectre doesn't need to judge and destroy for a victory. This is a hypothetical battle.

http://img435.imageshack.us/img435/1497/spectre19931412il6.jpg
Nabu and Spectre. Nabu was one of the insturments in the very creation of the universe. .All of the Lords of Chaos and Order are, and are insturmental to it. One of them is even the equivilent of Eternity; Kismet- the Aspect of the DCU itself. Others govern different things.

In that scan he overwhelms Nabu in Issue 14 of Volume 3, during a flashback brought on by the Phantom Stranger when he was describing to a priest exactly what the Wrath of God was... as the priest had inadvertantly made Corrigan want to judge the entire Earth during a confession. He wanted the priest to know the severity of what he brought on.

Later in the same flashback, Nabu is ready for him. And meets him head on.
http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/6420/spectre19931420yw9.jpg
Nabu is the aspect of Destiny, of.. FATE.
"No matter what force you represent I will prevail!"

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/9375/spectre19931421ka6.jpg
"But the Force the Spectre represented created the Lords of Order.... and could likewise... unmake them."


Also in Infinite Crisis, he made a roundabout and kicked the crap out of all of them.

Depends on how you look it. Being immune to one's powers should sometimes be taken into account, but here I want to consider both sides of the coin. Anyways, I believe Spectre could judge these two by as easily as he judges common people, there is no evidence to prove that assumption wrong.

And I believe Spectre wins this every time. How could Aegis and Tenebrous actually harm Spectre? Sneak attack him?

Nice scans and thanks for the additional info.

Originally posted by Tshern
Nice scans and thanks for the additional info. Check the Spectre respect thread for more. Skeets did a wonderful job with it.

I had picked those scans to show because I believe it acurrately depicted what needed to be seen. Someone important in the cosmic balance, one of the forces of creation itself.
And it just says blankly.
"But the force the Spectre represented created the Lords of Order.... and could likewise... unmake them."

BTW Abraxas has slain all Galactuses except the 616 one because he was defeated by Reed Richards with the Ultimate Nullifier before he could kill 616 Galactus.
So you can take that importance bullshit to somewhere else.

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
BTW Abraxas has slayed all Galactuses except the 616 one because he was defeated by Reed Richards with the Ultimate Nullifier before he could kill 616 Galactus.
So you can take that importance bullshit to somewhere else. Good point, he is certainly killable. But it doesn't need to come to that for Spectre to beat him. It's believable to say Spectre grows to the size of a solar system and punts him across the universe ftw.. And he has so many options with magic that it's rediculous.

They pushed the message through. I'll have a look at the thread, it can't do any harm, I suppose. I only have one arc with Spectre in it, so I am not a specialist, but as far as I know, his opponents can't hurt him in this match even if Spectre only stood there watching.

Oh yeah, and the arc I have doesn't portray Spectre too well...

Originally posted by Tshern
They pushed the message through. I'll have a look at the thread, it can't do any harm, I suppose. I only have one arc with Spectre in it, so I am not a specialist, but as far as I know, his opponents can't hurt him in this match even if Spectre only stood there watching.

Oh yeah, and the arc I have doesn't portray Spectre too well... What arc?

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
BTW Abraxas has slain all Galactuses except the 616 one because he was defeated by Reed Richards with the Ultimate Nullifier before he could kill 616 Galactus.
So you can take that importance bullshit to somewhere else.
Well, if Reed had not killed Galactus, Abraxas would never had appeared in the first place... But yes, you're very right and your point is valid.

Edit: Juntai, it's called Armageddon Inferno or something. There is Abraxis trying to take over the universe or something. Waverider picks people from the time stream to fight him and eventually the lost members of the JSA return and save the day, although Spectre couldn't do it...

Originally posted by Tshern
Well, if Reed had not killed Galactus, Abraxas would never had appeared in the first place... But yes, you're very right and your point is valid.

Edit: Juntai, it's called Armageddon Inferno or something. There is Abraxis trying to take over the universe or something. Waverider picks people from the time stream to fight him and eventually the lost members of the JSA return and save the day, although Spectre couldn't do it... Ah an old tale. Spectre was depowered by God after the Crisis and ran around as a more typical mage character, although still powerful, was not as his full glory until the retcons and return to power in Volume 3 of Spectre, which followed a few years AFTER that arc, that happened in what - 91? Volume 3 didn't even get rolling until 93, and didn't end until 97.

The last issue was published 4th of July 1992.

I knew he was not at full power, that would have been plain ridiculous. But yeah, he was still quite powerful, or at least Batman said something like "That's the Spectre. The odds just slipped heavily in our favor." when Ultraboy first saw the Spectre and confused him with Abraxis.

Originally posted by Tshern
The last issue was published 4th of July 1992.

I knew he was not at full power, that would have been plain ridiculous. But yeah, he was still quite powerful, or at least Batman said something like "That's the Spectre. The odds just slipped heavily in our favor." when Ultraboy first saw the Spectre and confused him with Abraxis. Wasn't this one of the storylines that also led in with Armageddon 2000, where they battled against Hank Hall as Monarch, and eventually came to reside on our Earth?

Sorry, but I don't know. If you have a hunch like that, it is already a lot more that I can say. It isn't a bad arc, though. Many characters that I like: Batman, Lobo, Green Lanterns...

Is Nabu equal to the Endless in DC? I know in Marvel there are degrees of conceptual representation, like say Love and Hate aren't on the same footing as Eternity and Oblivion. They're a rung below Chaos, Order, and Anomoly in the overall hierarchy. Was Nabu above/equal to Dream?

Originally posted by illadelph12
Is Nabu equal to the Endless in DC? I know in Marvel there are degrees of conceptual representation, like say Love and Hate aren't on the same footing as Eternity and Oblivion. They're a rung below Chaos, Order, and Anomoly in the overall hierarchy. Was Nabu above/equal to Dream? The Endless don't usually appear in DC continuity.

I'm aware they're more Vertigo, but the Lords of Order and Chaos have made appearances in the books.

Originally posted by illadelph12
I'm aware they're more Vertigo, but the Lords of Order and Chaos have made appearances in the books. And those aren't DC comics, they're Vertigo comics.


What are you making a case for exactly, that one building block of the universe is more important than another, so therefore can't have his ass kicked by Spectre in a hypothetical battle forum?

No. I'm just asking questions. I already qualified that I think Spectre would beat Tenebrous and Aegis per the terms of this thread. I'm simply asking questions regarding Spectre's ability versus universal conceptuality. Nabu was one of many Lords of Order. He wasn't the sole embodiment of Order like, say, Lord Order in Marvel. I'm just seeking parallels for better understanding, and trying to have an intelligent conversation on the subject matter at hand.

Unless you feel this isn't the place, Juntai. If so, I'll cease the line of inquisition. This is your thread.

Originally posted by illadelph12
No. I'm just asking questions. I already qualified that I think Spectre would beat Tenebrous and Aegis per the terms of this thread. I'm simply asking questions regarding Spectre's ability versus universal conceptuality. Nabu was one of many Lords of Order. He wasn't the sole embodiment of Order like, say, Lord Order in Marvel. I'm just seeking parallels for better understanding, and trying to have an intelligent conversation on the subject matter at hand.

Unless you feel this isn't the place, Juntai. If so, I'll cease the line of inquisition. This is your thread.

uhh whoops, hit the button didnt type anything, give me a minute,

-.-

I still haven't read anything after Annihilation 2, so I need to ask: Have Aegis and Tenebrous actually performed any feats as to insinuate they can harm the Spectre?

Not that relevant to the thread, but I'd to know why were people even debating over the matter.

It was more debating about whether Tenebrous and Aegis were fundamental parts of existence like Galactus than whether they'd shown on panel feats of firepower on par with Spectre. It's kinda hard to match feats with a character that's been around for decades when you've only been around for a few months. Galactus stated on panel that Tenebrous and Aegis were his peers in the role of universal balance.

Originally posted by illadelph12
It was more debating about whether Tenebrous and Aegis were fundamental parts of existence like Galactus than whether they'd shown on panel feats of firepower on par with Spectre. It's kinda hard to match feats with a character that's been around for decades when you've only been around for a few months. Galactus stated on panel that Tenebrous and Aegis were his peers in the role of universal balance.
Yeah Galactus is very fundemental.....
http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/19/1lh1.th.jpg

Galactus is what kept Abraxas in check. When the original 616 Galactus died Abraxas was released, and he went about killing Galacti to bring about the end of the Multiverse. That's Abraxas's purpose.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Galactus is what kept Abraxas in check. When the original 616 Galactus died Abraxas was released, and he went about killing Galacti to bring about the end of the Multiverse. That's Abraxas's purpose.
See you said it your self Galactus is not fundamental

Originally posted by illadelph12
It was more debating about whether Tenebrous and Aegis were fundamental parts of existence like Galactus than whether they'd shown on panel feats of firepower on par with Spectre. It's kinda hard to match feats with a character that's been around for decades when you've only been around for a few months. Galactus stated on panel that Tenebrous and Aegis were his peers in the role of universal balance.
Did he actually say they are his peers in the role of universal balance? Can you tell me the issue and I'll check it up?

It is only cosmic balance not Universal.

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
It is only cosmic balance not Universal.
Okay. How about the issue then?

Annihilation Silver Surfer issue 3

"There was a war.We of the COSMIC BALANCE only three survived."
http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/9526/1mq9.th.jpg

I don't follow you Juggernaut. Could you explain your reasoning?

Tshern, I beleive it's Annihilation 3 where Galactus explains to Surfer about Aegis and Tenebrous. I'm at work and don't have my comics handy. I'll have the book and page number when I get home.

Aren't the terms cosmic and universal essentially the same, Juggernaut?

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
Annihilation Silver Surfer issue 3

"There was a war.We of the COSMIC BALANCE only three survived."
http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/9526/1mq9.th.jpg

Huh, he posted the scan. Well, nevermind. It was #3.

And Juggernaut, you're still missing the point. "Cosmic" beings are "universal" beings. Particularly the Abstracts. They embody universal concepts.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Aren't the terms cosmic and universal essentially the same, Juggernaut?
No

Thanks for the info, juggs and illadelph.

And cosmic and universal can be pretty much the same, although cosmic might mean something of a smaller scale, too. Or that's my opinion of the matter. But yes, they are essentially the same.

So being a cosmic being/abstract doesn't make you universal?

Eternity, Death, Oblivion, etc, "cosmic" beings, aren't "universal"?

Originally posted by illadelph12
So being a cosmic being/abstract doesn't make you universal?

Eternity, Death, Oblivion, etc, "cosmic" beings, aren't "universal"?

Eternity and the others are essentials. Galactus mentioned them that we 3 so they play a lesser part Imo.
BTW Thanos has killed Death with the Ultimate Nullifier so in that case those 2 can also be killed.

Originally posted by illadelph12
So being a cosmic being/abstract doesn't make you universal?

Eternity, Death, Oblivion, etc, "cosmic" beings, aren't "universal"?


I think being cosmic doesn't necessarily make you universal. In my opinion Surfer is cosmic, but by no means universal. However, all universal beings that I can quickly come up with are cosmic.

But I still agree with you, the very essence of the meanings of the words in question is the same...

Sorry, the message is probably a bit awkward. I suck at explaining words in English. Damn second languages...

I'm still not following you. Are you saying that because there's more than one that they aren't universal, or that their roll of balance isn't important? You are familiar with Galactus's role in Marvel, right?

I wonder if Abraxas is one of the primodial gods that he battled for supremacy over cosmic balance? I think that battle was to decide who would serve cosmic balance of the Universe.. The winner being Galactus making him issential to the Universe.. It would make Aeges and Tenebrous non essential... But thats just speculation, very little info about that event..

Originally posted by illadelph12
I'm still not following you. Are you saying that because there's more than one that they aren't universal, or that their roll of balance isn't important? You are familiar with Galactus's role in Marvel, right?
Listen everyone know what is Death's purpose in the Universe but she has been killed by Thanos with Ultimate Nullifier so please stop this importence stupidity.

At least I am and I definitely think he is essential to the universe. Yes, he was killed and what happened then? The universe trembled at the feet of Abraxas... I've only been discussing semantics here, nothing actually relevant...

Originally posted by Tshern
I think being cosmic doesn't necessarily make you universal. In my opinion Surfer is cosmic, but by no means universal. However, all universal beings that I can quickly come up with are cosmic.

But I still agree with you, the very essence of the meanings of the words in question is the same...

Sorry, the message is probably a bit awkward. I suck at explaining words in English. Damn second languages...

I get what your saying. For me it's always been a difference between being a cosmic entity and a cosmic powered character. The Fantastic Four are cosmic powered, but they are not cosmic entities. Surfer himself is cosmic powered. He was empowered by Galactus. Galactus himself, on the other hand, is a cosmic entity, because his existence and role are essential to the universe. He's the balance between Eternity and Death, as stated on panel, and his origins (as Galactus, not Galan) are of the birth of the universe.

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
Listen everyone know what is Death's purpose in the Universe but she has been killed by Thanos with Ultimate Nullifier so please stop this importence stupidity.

Hmm, well I gather from this reply that you must be young to be getting so agitated over a hypothetical conversation. If you don't like the questions I'm asking or the topic, feel free to ignore them.

Originally posted by illadelph12
I get what your saying. For me it's always been a difference between being a cosmic entity and a cosmic powered character. The Fantastic Four are cosmic powered, but they are not cosmic entities. Surfer himself is cosmic powered. He was empowered by Galactus. Galactus himself, on the other hand, is a cosmic entity, because his existence and role are essential to the universe. He's the balance between Eternity and Death, as stated on panel, and his origins (as Galactus, not Galan) are of the birth of the universe.
I concur with no hesitation.

It goes like this :
Dc Universe: Spectre kills them since they are not essential
Neutral Universe: The same as in DC
Marvel Universe: Spectre either beats them or takes away their powers

Yup 616 Galactus is issential... Probably to the multiverses as well...

Originally posted by Roldz
Yup 616 Galactus is issential... Probably to the multiverses as well...
Why? Abraxas killed almost every Galactus except 616

I dont know, very little info about those guys.. Spectre could probably take em out dough...

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
Why? Abraxas killed almost every Galactus except 616
Just think about it if he wasnt stop, whose to say its not the end of the multiverse, Abraxas is the reason why G has to eat worlds..
And i thought 616 G died thats why Abraxas was release, I didnt really follow that arc...

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
It goes like this :
Dc Universe: Spectre kills them since they are not essential
Neutral Universe: The same as in DC
Marvel Universe: Spectre either beats them or takes away their powers
Yeah, of course the Spectre wins the fight. That's not the matter we we have been discussing the last two or so pages...

Just had a thought.

Galactus is part of a trio. Himself , Death and eternity. He also plays the role of gaurd and Jail to Abraxes. Because Aegis and Tenebrous are apparent 'Equals' does that mean that there holding back something as well ?

Originally posted by grey fox
Just had a thought.

Galactus is part of a trio. Himself , Death and eternity. He also plays the role of gaurd and Jail to Abraxes. Because Aegis and Tenebrous are apparent 'Equals' does that mean that there holding back something as well ? Tenebrous is holding back Wolverine while Aegis is holding back Squirrel Girl.

Originally posted by grey fox
Just had a thought.

Galactus is part of a trio. Himself , Death and eternity. He also plays the role of gaurd and Jail to Abraxes. Because Aegis and Tenebrous are apparent 'Equals' does that mean that there holding back something as well ?

Originally posted by Roldz
I wonder if Abraxas is one of the primodial gods that he battled for supremacy over cosmic balance? I think that battle was to decide who would serve cosmic balance of the Universe.. The winner being Galactus making him issential to the Universe.. It would make Aeges and Tenebrous non essential... But thats just speculation, very little info about that event..

He then impresoned Abraxas in himself and the 2 in the crunch..
Too many unknown..

First of all, Death was killed in Universe X, an alternate reality. In that reality, apparently Mephisto is just a stupid caveman who thought he was the devil. I don't know why you would ever bring that into this thread. And don't underestimate the Ultimate Nullifier. In continuity, it is an aspect of Galactus and has never truly been explained.

Now, we've seen entities that are beyond Spectre's judgement for some reason. One, was Parallax. For whatever reason, Spectre could not bring his power onto him, even though he technically caused mass destruction and pain. But then again, he was probably just doing his "job." But that's the caveat...

So now, I'm going to end this thread. FP Spectre SHOULD be able to beat FP Aegis and FP Tenebrous. That's right. You heard me. 180 degree turn. I'll explain why. Look at this scan and the circled part. Aegis and Tenebrous defied the Creator. They were Proemiel Elders, just like Galactus and they all served the same role, of bringing balance and making ready the way for all that will come... but they perverted it. They are as important to the cosmic balance as Galactus, but they decided to remake the universe their own way. Galactus had to imprison them.

Since they went against the wishes of the Creator, they should be subject to His Wrath. Therefore, they're like Galactus gone bad. Spectre should be able to bring his power to bear. And now that I think of it, he could do it by destroying the Universe, but bringing all that power as the Crunch and imprisoning them again.

So there. After all of Juntai's sidestepping, I just realized the weakness in my own argument. Now let nobody question that I do recognize when I'm wrong or beaten. I would like to see it in other peoplpe here at KMC though. -.-

Only hypothetical question I have now is, if Aegis and Tenebrous are FP, they must have absorbed everything and are the source of the new beginning. So where would Spectre get the power for a new Crunch? Everything that is, everything that will be the source of the universe, is already inside of FP Aegis and FP Tenebrous, since that is what their FP state is. So where would the power of a new Crunch come from? I guess if Spectre is FP and authorized by the Creator to do anything, he could draw it out of them. But something like that doesn't sit well with me. Either way, I've had 5 beers in the past hour and can't think straight. All I know is this, nobody's ever beaten me in a debate once I've taken a position... except myself. I'm my own worst enemy.

I still subscribe to the idea that Galactus and the Proemial Elders are above Spectre in the food chain, "Balance and Re-creation" is clearly over "Judgement of Wrongdoers." So if Spectre ever decided to go after Galactus, who is still doing his job, well then...

... but that's not what this thead is about. So until next time, cheers.

EDIT: And lastly, I still believe Tenebrous and Aegis serve functions as equally fundamental as Galactus. Tenebrous's monicker is "He of the Darkness Between." That sounds like Dark Matter, which according to scientists is what keeps the Universe together. Aegis, Lady of All Sorrows... I can't speculate from that little what that could mean. So who's to say that they're still not serving important functions? Who knows.

No they are not above Spectre since
Spectre = Living Tribunal.
Edit: So by your speculations Tenebrous and Aegis are above The Living Tribunal since Lt only Judges.

Guys read Quasar there are some good infos about The Living Tribunal in a couple of issues.

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
No they are not above Spectre since
Spectre = Living Tribunal. Living Tribunal is not Spectre. Spectre is the avatar of vengeance, Living Tribunal is about pure balance. Living Tribunal did nothing to Thanos, who was evil and killed half of the universe. Living Tribunal merely saw it as one being (Thanos) taking precedence over the other (Eternity). He is above concepts of good and evil, unlike Spectre.

Nobody should make that argument again. Anti-Monitor wanted to make himself all that is by absorbing all that is. Living Tribunal probably would have done nothing to him. Just like Thanos w/ IG.

You mean when he re-created the abstracts and switched off the IG?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Living Tribunal is not Spectre. Spectre is the avatar of vengeance, Living Tribunal is about pure balance. Living Tribunal did nothing to Thanos, who was evil and killed half of the universe. Living Tribunal merely saw it as one being (Thanos) taking precedence over the other (Eternity). He is above concepts of good and evil, unlike Spectre.

Nobody should make that argument again. Anti-Monitor wanted to make himself all that is by absorbing all that is. Living Tribunal probably would have done nothing to him. Just like Thanos w/ IG.

Pffffff.....HE meant Marvel's Living Tribunal is kind of the DC's Spectre. And don't try to explain stuff like this. It doesn't suit you. Living Tribunal is something like SPectre in DC or the other way around. Living Tribunal switched off IG by the way. I'm talking on easy language so you know what I mean.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Living Tribunal is not Spectre. Spectre is the avatar of vengeance, Living Tribunal is about pure balance. Living Tribunal did nothing to Thanos, who was evil and killed half of the universe. Living Tribunal merely saw it as one being (Thanos) taking precedence over the other (Eternity). He is above concepts of good and evil, unlike Spectre.

Nobody should make that argument again. Anti-Monitor wanted to make himself all that is by absorbing all that is. Living Tribunal probably would have done nothing to him. Just like Thanos w/ IG.
Spectre is the one who is sent by The One Above All to do the dirty job for him.

Don't try it Juggs...He'll never learn....



He knows much more than you, haven't you realized?

Living Tribunal makes his judgements based on balance. Not on evil or good. He was perfectly willing to allow Thanos to take Eternity's place because there would still be balance. Which is why he didn't deal with Thanos destroying half the universe and why he did indeed step in when Adam Warlock wielded it, because Warlock's mental instability would have led to the end of all reality.

Spectre would have tried to take on Thanos because he was evil, because Spectre is not above the concepts of good and evil, indeed that is why he was created. Living Tribunal does not, nor care about such concepts. And Rewmac, until you prove otherwise, take a seat.

Your turn.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Living Tribunal makes his judgements based on balance. Not on evil or good. He was perfectly willing to allow Thanos to take Eternity's place because there would still be balance. Which is why he didn't deal with Thanos destroying half the universe and why he did indeed step in when Adam Warlock wielded it, because Warlock's mental instability would have led to the end of all reality.

Spectre would have tried to take on Thanos because he was evil, because Spectre is not above the concepts of good and evil, indeed that is why he was created. Living Tribunal does not, nor care about such concepts. And Rewmac, until you prove otherwise, take a seat.

Your turn.
So what ?Their purpose is the same to Judge and they are also roughly equal in power.

I disagree with you juggy666. Spectre judges good and evil. Living Tribunal is above concepts like that. I can't make it any clearer than that. This is why I say Spectre and Living Tribunal are different.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I disagree with you juggy666. Spectre judges good and evil. Living Tribunal is above concepts like that. I can't make it any clearer than that. This is why I say Spectre and Living Tribunal are different.
but they both judge don't they?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Living Tribunal makes his judgements based on balance. Not on evil or good. He was perfectly willing to allow Thanos to take Eternity's place because there would still be balance. Which is why he didn't deal with Thanos destroying half the universe and why he did indeed step in when Adam Warlock wielded it, because Warlock's mental instability would have led to the end of all reality.

Spectre would have tried to take on Thanos because he was evil, because Spectre is not above the concepts of good and evil, indeed that is why he was created. Living Tribunal does not, nor care about such concepts. And Rewmac, until you prove otherwise, take a seat.

Your turn.

The balance itself is based on good and evil....Anything else you want? How do you know Spectre would care? Me taking a seat? The reason LT is above because he can decide. Spectre has to work this way. READ COMICS...And stop trying to play tough on me...

I just told you the difference in the way they judge. The difference is so fundamental, that you can't equate Spectre and Living Tribunal. Spectre judges good and evil, Living Tribunal is above good and evil. Am I right or not?

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
but they both judge don't they?

Originally posted by Rewmac
The balance itself is based on good and evil....Anything else you want? Wow. How ignorant. So during 'Infinity Gauntlet,' you wouldn't consider killing half the universe evil? Did you even read why LT didn't interfere when all of the cosmic beings asked him to? Balance is not about good and evil.

Just wrote my answer.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Wow. How ignorant. So during 'Infinity Gauntlet,' you wouldn't consider killing half the universe evil? Did you even read why LT didn't interfere when all of the cosmic beings asked him to? Balance is not about good and evil. Questioning my knowledge...How sweet...Read Quasar dunno which issue at the moment there are couple with LT there is some of what he is. Then again. He would only interfere if he wants. He hasn't got things to do. He is above these puny humans.

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
but they both judge don't they? Spectre judges evildoers based on the concept of good and evil. Living Tribunal judges based on balance, above the concepts of good and evil. Therefore, when an evil being (Thanos) wanted to replace all that is, with his own evil self, Living Tribunal did not interfere. What was happening in that instance was mere survival of the fittest. LT cares nothing for good and evil, they do not guide his actions in the least.

He prevented Adam Warlock from having the IG, not because Adam Warlock was evil but because he was unstable and would destroy the balance.

How much more simple can I make it?

You admited that they both Judge so it means they have the same purpose not exatcly the same but similar.

Originally posted by Rewmac
Questioning my knowledge...How sweet...Read Quasar dunno which issue at the moment there are couple with LT there is some of what he is. Then again. He would only interfere if he wants. He hasn't got things to do. He is above these puny humans. I just wrote a rebuttal of your answer. I wrote that balance is not about good and evil and I supported it with an example from comics. Thanos w/ IG killed half the universe and Living Tribunal did not judge him.

Now... are you going to refer me to a comic series or try to refute what I wrote?

Everything is based on good and evil. That makes the universe go balance.

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
You admited that they both Judge so it means they have the same purpose not exatcly the same but similar. Similar but not the same. So does Spectre = Living Tribunal, like you said? Or are you conceding that Spectre does not equal Living Tribunal?

Being similar is obviously not being equal. Do you understand why I took the position I took and the line of arguments I took to get here now?

If Spectre was equal to Living Tribunal, LT would have to judge bewteen evil and good. He doesn't. Or, Spectre would have to be above the concept of good and evil. He is not. Thank you for narrowing the focus of the debate. You at least took a stance, rewmac is ordering me to read the entirety of Quasar comics for some vague something that might prove against me.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Similar but not the same. So does Spectre = Living Tribunal, like you said? Or are you conceding that Spectre does not equal Living Tribunal?

Being similar is obviously not being equal. Do you understand why I took the position I took and the line of arguments I took to get here now?

If Spectre was equal to Living Tribunal, LT would have to judge bewteen evil and good. He doesn't. Or, Spectre would have to be above the concept of good and evil. He is not. Thank you for narrowing the focus of the debate. You at least took a stance, rewmac is ordering me to read the entirety of Quasar comics for some vague something that might prove against me.
I meant that in power they are roughly equal of course they are diffrent and also similar at the same time because one is the others rip off.

Originally posted by Rewmac
Everything is based on good and evil. That makes the universe go balance. Ok. If that's your opinion, fine. I happen to think balance is not just about good and evil. I think balance is above that. Now. I'm going to ask you a question:

"If balance is about good and evil. Why did LT do nothing to Thanos when he killed half the universe, which is about an evil act as you could ever accomplish?"

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Ok. If that's your opinion, fine. I happen to think balance is not just about good and evil. I think balance is above that. Now. I'm going to ask you a question:

"If balance is about good and evil. Why did LT do nothing to Thanos when he killed half the universe, which is about an evil act as you could ever accomplish?"

I'm sure it is because it would end the series. and Thanos had the right to do so or something.

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
I meant that in power they are roughly equal of course they are diffrent and also similar at the same time because one is the others rip off. Ok, now you are qualifying your answer.

Spectre's power = Living Tribunal's power.

Finally. I have led you exactly where I wanted you to go. That in itself, is enough. If you want, you can answer this point then, "If Spectre judges good and evil, what about those who are above the concepts of good and evil?" You don't have to answer, because I want rewmac to answer my previous question, which bears directly on this. I'm satisfied that you have reassessed your position and qualified what you stated.

Originally posted by Rewmac
Everything is based on good and evil. That makes the universe go balance.

Could you explain this further?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Ok. If that's your opinion, fine. I happen to think balance is not just about good and evil. I think balance is above that. Now. I'm going to ask you a question:

"If balance is about good and evil. Why did LT do nothing to Thanos when he killed half the universe, which is about an evil act as you could ever accomplish?"

Evil and Good is just a point of view. And Good and Evil goes together with power. The universe for LT is a little concern. He can do or undo things which are beneath him.

As Rewmac said, Good and Evil is a point of view.

When Thanos wiped out half of the universe to try impres Lady Death, he probably thought this was Good as he had a reason for it.

It is like killing someone with a family, a wife and kids.

But they are a serial killer, it has good points and bad points to it the way you look at it.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Ok, now you are qualifying your answer.

Spectre's power = Living Tribunal's power.

Finally. I have led you exactly where I wanted you to go. That in itself, is enough. If you want, you can answer this point then, "If Spectre judges good and evil, what about those who are above the concepts of good and evil?" You don't have to answer, because I want rewmac to answer my previous question, which bears directly on this. I'm satisfied that you have reassessed your position and qualified what you stated.
Spectre also judged Parallax while he just wanted to create a better Universe or Universes for him self and the others

Um. I don't understand your point of view. I'm not being sarcastic, I
m just not sure how your answer bears on my question.

To be honest, I think your agreeing with me. Evil and good are just abstract points of view, beneath the LT's notice. He only cares about balance. Spectre himself cares about good and evil. Evil is not beneath his notice, in fact, definitions of good and evil control how he plays out his role. He has to wreak vengeance upon evildoers. When Eclipso skews his view of what 'good vs. evil' means, by saying disorder is evil and magic is all about disorder, Spectre goes for it. Now we obviously see that disorder is not evil, because God got pissed off at Spectre for attacking magic.

But I'm not going to put words into your mouth. I'm going to ask for a clarification. What did you mean?

So Spectre enforces a point of view, whereas LT protects what is inherrent to keeping existence balanced?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Um. I don't understand your point of view. I'm not being sarcastic, I
m just not sure how your answer bears on my question.

To be honest, I think your agreeing with me. Evil and good are just abstract points of view, beneath the LT's notice. He only cares about balance. Spectre himself cares about good and evil. Evil is not beneath his notice, in fact, definitions of good and evil control how he plays out his role. He has to wreak vengeance upon evildoers. When Eclipso skews his view of what 'good vs. evil' means, by saying disorder is evil and magic is all about disorder, Spectre goes for it. Now we obviously see that disorder is not evil, because God got pissed off at Spectre for attacking magic.

But I'm not going to put words into your mouth. I'm going to ask for a clarification. What did you mean?
Imo Spectre judges good and evil from his point of view or from the One Above All's view.

That can't be it because in Infinite Crisis Spectre was acting of his own accord after Eclipso double talked him into destroying magic. It's been proven fallable, so I doubt it's the Presence's point of view.