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Anything allowed... instantkills, levitating lightsabers etc,

Which team wins?

Well, we don't know exactly how she did that insta-kill but anywho, this is a brutal stomp. i mean, you GIVE her a thing that can presumably kill anyone instantly... Yes, a brutal and stupid stomp.

If they can't block her Force Drain then she merely Force Drains them and they die. If that doesn't work on them then she still likely wins, only it's a hell of a lot closer.

I don't think that Traya could use her 'instakill' in this situation. (I put instakill in '' because it's not actually an instakill, just a Force ability that killed particular people instantly, but would not work against anyone.) I think that she can only use it when the Exile is present; why didn't she use it on Sion when he attacked her? Without her instakill, I strongly doubt that she can take both Dooku and Maul in combat. Each of them are better than her in saber combat. If Maul attacks her with his saber I think Dooku should have no problem keeping her from doing any significant attacks with the Force.

Why can she only use it with The Exile present? Logic Please.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I don't think that Traya could use her 'instakill' in this situation. (I put instakill in '' because it's not actually an instakill, just a Force ability that killed particular people instantly, but would not work against anyone.) I think that she can only use it when the Exile is present; why didn't she use it on Sion when he attacked her? Without her instakill, I strongly doubt that she can take both Dooku and Maul in combat. Each of them are better than her in saber combat. If Maul attacks her with his saber I think Dooku should have no problem keeping her from doing any significant attacks with the Force.

Agreed. Traya is a one handed old bag who as shown us nothing with a saber. She wouldn't last 5 seconds in melee with either of these guys.

Zephiel, once again, I have to ask, why the hell would you make such a thread? If you give Traya her instakill - she's going to win. Easily.

See, this is why people call you a KotoR fanboy. Seriously. Make threads in which combatants have a chance.

Moreover, force drain isn't an instakill anymore than force lightning is

Alone against Maul, I would give it to her... but this is overkill.

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/6797/sign7bz.png

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Moreover, force drain isn't an instakill anymore than force lightning is


Tell that to Traya and Nihilus.

Originally posted by Escape81
Zephiel, once again, I have to ask, why the hell would you make such a thread? If you give Traya her instakill - she's going to win. Easily.

See, this is why people call you a KotoR fanboy. Seriously. Make threads in which combatants have a chance.

Who is to say that she does have her instakill (the Force drain isn't technically an instakill, actually, but whatever)? I read somewhere that she killed the three Jedi Masters by showing them the Force through the Exile's eye's (or something like that) which was what killed them. Since the Exile isn't around I don't see why she would be able to use it.

her ability to use the technique only when the exile is around, is only a theory.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Who is to say that she does have her instakill (the Force drain isn't technically an instakill, actually, but whatever)? I read somewhere that she killed the three Jedi Masters by showing them the Force through the Exile's eye's (or something like that) which was what killed them. Since the Exile isn't around I don't see why she would be able to use it.

Read the first post, Glentract. He's allowed use of them.

I assume you meant she. However, just because it says allowed does not mean that she automatically can use them. I see it as just meaning that if it is shown that she could use them, then for this thread she can. I do not see it as an automatic assumption that she can use them. See what I mean?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I assume you meant she. However, just because it says allowed does not mean that she automatically can use them. I see it as just meaning that if it is shown that she could use them, then for this thread she can. I do not see it as an automatic assumption that she can use them. See what I mean?

It is not a fact that Traya's power generates from the Exile, unfortunately. There are unexplained inconsistencies which warrant attention, I agree.

By "he", I meant Zephiel, who allowed instakills to be used.

It is not a fact that Traya's power generates from the Exile, unfortunately. There are unexplained inconsistencies which warrant attention, I agree.

However, unless it is proven that Traya can use her instakill without the Exile I see no reason to believe that she can use it here. Zephiel never stated that she will be able to use it, just that the rules of the thread won't be what keeps her from using it.

By "he", I meant Zephiel, who allowed instakills to be used.

Ah, I see.

No, the onus is upon you to come up with the proof; insofar as you're the one making the assumption. You can scream this over and over again, whether it be here or EoD; but you need to come up with some hard, solid proof and not just idle conjecture.

What he heck is EoD? Is that Janus' site?

Janus and Illustrious' forum, at which I happen to moderate.

Ah, intresting. Tell them I said hye, lol.

@ Swirly

Just wondering? Do the Antedilluvians and the people of EoD still believe Marka Ragnos is the strongest Sith or Sidious?

Only Illustrious, and maybe some others I think.

I honestly couldn't say, Blax. Why not find out at www.edge-of-destiny.com?

Originally posted by Swirly Girl
No, the onus is upon you to come up with the proof; insofar as you're the one making the assumption. You can scream this over and over again, whether it be here or EoD; but you need to come up with some hard, solid proof and not just idle conjecture.

Why exactly is it my job to prove that she can't use her instakill?

Do I need to explain this to you, Glentract? You are the one trying to convince us that she cannot use her drain power without the Exile.

Ergo, the onus is upon you to prove up.

Me stating that she cannot use the drain move without the Exile being present is just to show that the idea that she CAN use it is not yet conclusive.

Well, maybe if you could actually... I dunno... DEBATE, you'd understand that if she has her instakill, she's gonna instantly kill them (which is what 'instakil' means). I think that thought alone of a KotoR era person beating a PT person makes you aroused... which is why you allowed instakills.

Originally posted by Escape81
Well, maybe if you could actually... I dunno... DEBATE, you'd understand that if she has her instakill, she's gonna instantly kill them (which is what 'instakil' means). I think that thought alone of a KotoR era person beating a PT person makes you aroused... which is why you allowed instakills.

I suppose YOU do not understand the idea of debating. We both make up our arguments by supplying proof that is either from a source or through logical deductions.

Glentract WAS bringing up an argument that Traya can't use the instantkill all the time. If he has an argument, then we can debate .

But I suppose you didn't follow my advice and decided to keep your head comfortably tucked in your rear end.

Excuse me, Glentract? Are you trying to say that you can dissuade an arguement or prove that "it is not conclusive" without any proof whatsoever? Let's have a little lesson, kiddies. Here's the definition of proof from dictionary.com:



^ You'll note that I bolded the particular passages that were relevant.

To be quite frank, Glentract; you've not brought any proof. You've whined and bitched about how she can't use it; without providing anything that even vaguely resembles a logical and well-thought out argument. The base position, Glentract; is that she can use her drain whenever she likes, insofar as no evidence to the contrary has been presented. Not by you, or anyone else.

You see Glentract, in order to debate; we have to rely on a premise. The premise is that Kreia can use her draining ability all the time, insofar as she hasn't been shown to be restricted in that ability. You need a logical argument to debunk this premise or facts that provide evidence to the contrary. You've provided neither.

Guess what, Glentract? It's time you proved up, because this is ****ing tiring. Either you lay some solid facts down onto the debating table or you shut the **** up. Period.

Darth Maul was cited by several sources to be one of the most lethal and deadly apprentices in the Sith's history. He's been described as an instrument of pure destruction, as well. He crushed Anoon Bondara - a Jedi instructor on par with Masters Yoda and Windu (in lightsaber combat) - and had a nasty habit (as we know from Shadow Hunter) of fighting half-heartedly, as to gauge and test his opponent's strength.

We know that he dominated Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan in terms of abilities. Qui-Gon was superior to Obi-Wan, and Qui-Gon himself understood that Maul was quite a bit better than him.

I am a bit skeptical to assume that Traya is as skilled as he is, with a lightsaber. Her powers in the Force are, of course, quite a bit better than his. But he possesses immense physical prowess and raw energy that I don't believe, for a moment, that Traya could keep up with him.

I do believe that, without her instakill, she would be overwhelmed by these two. Count Dooku is likely much better in lightsaber combat than she is, as well, and he is pretty powerful in the Force as well.

That said, it is only testimony to Zephiel's ridiculous fanboyism that he made this thread. Traya is correct; Glentract's theories are just that - theories - and he can't seem to provide any evidence to support that her instakill derives from the Exile's status in the Force.

I'm half tempted to make a NJO Luke, DE Sidious, and Yoda vs. Revan thread to counter the sheer stupidity of this one...

About Anoon Bondara, it's pretty tricky to gauge just exactly how powerful he was. His padawan, Darsha Assant considered him the best swordsman she'd ever seen. Obi-Wan viewed him as one of the best saber duelists of the order. These quotes alone would pretty much put him on par with the top jedi in terms of dueling, however when Maul defeats him, he thinks to himself that while it was great to kill a jedi, what he really desired was to be tested against one of the top jedi such as Mace Windu or Plo Koon. Now this quote would seemingly put Plo Koon and Mace Windu a league anove him.

Originally posted by Dessel
About Anoon Bondara, it's pretty tricky to gauge just exactly how powerful he was. His padawan, Darsha Assant considered him the best swordsman she'd ever seen. Obi-Wan viewed him as one of the best saber duelists of the order. These quotes alone would pretty much put him on par with the top jedi in terms of dueling, however when Maul defeats him, he thinks to himself that while it was great to kill a jedi, what he really desired was to be tested against one of the top jedi such as Mace Windu or Plo Koon. Now this quote would seemingly put Plo Koon and Mace Windu a league anove him.

Well, considering how Plo Koon sucked in comparison to Mace, it is likely that Maul went by reputation.

Originally posted by Escape81
Well, considering how Plo Koon sucked in comparison to Mace, it is likely that Maul went by reputation.

Not necessarily, remember, this is pre TPM Mace.

Dooku can probably beat Traya himself if she didn't have Instakill. With Maul, the duo definately finds a way to win. But since Traya has instakill, sadly the duo get murdered.

The fact that an argument was made means the thread was relevant, kiddo. Differing arguments = debate.

You can troll about me being a "fanboy" as much as you want, the fact is, it is quite humorous that I am apparently the cause of your distress, especially with something so ridiculous as a "Star Wars debate," which incidentally means jack shit to me.

Originally posted by Swirly Girl
Guess what, Glentract? It's time you proved up, because this is ****ing tiring. Either you lay some solid facts down onto the debating table or you shut the **** up. Period.

You're telling me to put osme facts on the table? I don't think you're one to talk as you almost never make any comments towars the topic at hand. The fact is that there are to many holes in the case for Traya being able to use her instakill for it to be taken seriously. Why didn't she use it on Nihilus when he and Sion were rebelling against her? Why didn't she use it against Sion on Peragus? Why didn't she use it against the Exile on Malachor?

And the main problem I have with the idea that she can use it whenever she wants is that wouldn't have needed the Exile, or anyone else, (the people at the Trayus Academy) to accompish her goals if she was as powerful as that. She killed the three greatest Jedi with a wave of her hand. One of them, Kavar, is believed to have been nearly as good as Malak in saber combat. No one alive would be strong enough to stand against her. Why didn't she just go around and pwn all of the Jedi and Sith on her own?

If you want to argue Traya can use her instakill you need to prove it.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
You're telling me to put osme facts on the table? I don't think you're one to talk as you almost never make any comments towars the topic at hand. The fact is that there are to many holes in the case for Traya being able to use her instakill for it to be taken seriously. Why didn't she use it on Nihilus when he and Sion were rebelling against her? Why didn't she use it against Sion on Peragus? Why didn't she use it against the Exile on Malachor?

And the main problem I have with the idea that she can use it whenever she wants is that wouldn't have needed the Exile, or anyone else, (the people at the Trayus Academy) to accompish her goals if she was as powerful as that. She killed the three greatest Jedi with a wave of her hand. One of them, Kavar, is believed to have been nearly as good as Malak in saber combat. No one alive would be strong enough to stand against her. Why didn't she just go around and pwn all of the Jedi and Sith on her own?

If you want to argue Traya can use her instakill you need to prove it.


Well you'd have to understand the key element to her character, she didn't want to go around and WTFPWN everybody, she wanted to prove to them that they were wrong and she was right, why do you think she was so disgusted with the Exile in the Dark Side ending when she kills all the masters? And yes she can use without the Exile, Im pretty sure she did it to the Sith Assassins on Malachor.

And what would be the point of attempting a drain on Sion or Nihlius? Obviously it would do jack shit to Sion since, in the cut content when Nihlius does it he gets right back up, and for Nihlius how can you drain a wound in the force? Nihlius himself proved that it wouldn't work when he tried to drain the Exile. You have no proof.

This thread is stupid there is no way Dooku and Maul can win with the Instakill included, pure fanboyism.

No, here is the fact. You made this thread as a means of satisfying your pathetic KotoR-driven bias. That is made plain by the fact that you gave a KotoR-era character (Traya) an ability that instantly kills its victim (!).

Just how do you think that this fight was going to work? That Dooku and Maul would, somehow, be able to evade an attack that can instantly kill them (!), which is (incidentally) triggered by a wave of the hand?

We all know that you are a poor debator, Zephiel. That becomes crystal clear when incompetent threads like this are made.

Glentract's theories are just that, theories. His theory only contributes to the ineptitude of this thread. He has no concrete evidence to support him, other than Traya's inability to handle Sion and Nihilus ganging up on her. How exactly can he make an argument out of that?

I'll answer for you. He can't. But, being an inept debator, you probably can relate.



Ac, you took the words right outta my mouth. There's another person who thinks that this thread is stupid, Zephiel. Maybe you should start paying attention.

Glentract's theories are just that, theories. His theory only contributes to the ineptitude of this thread. He has no concrete evidence to support him, other than Traya's inability to handle Sion and Nihilus ganging up on her. How exactly can he make an argument out of that?

It's true, Traya being able to use her instakill only in the Exile's presence is only a theory. But the idea that she can use it wherever she wants is also a theory.

And I have more than just herinability to handle Sion and Nihilus on my side. Why didn't she just go around and pwn all of the Jedi and Sith on her own?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Glentract's theories are just that, theories. His theory only contributes to the ineptitude of this thread. He has no concrete evidence to support him, other than Traya's inability to handle Sion and Nihilus ganging up on her. How exactly can he make an argument out of that?

It's true, Traya being able to use her instakill only in the Exile's presence is only a theory. But the idea that she can use it wherever she wants is also a theory.

And I have more than just herinability to handle Sion and Nihilus on my side. Why didn't she just go around and pwn all of the Jedi and Sith on her own?

Don't ask me. For all we know, you're right. But what you have is just a theory, and it may have simply been game mechanic that didn't allow her to slaughter Jedi/Sith everywhere.

But what you have is just a theory,

I already said that. Your theory is not better than mine.

and it may have simply been game mechanic that didn't allow her to slaughter Jedi/Sith everywhere.

What does game mechanic have to do with it at all?

I have a question!

I would like to know that if Traya's instantkill ability is so effective then why she did not tried that ability on Exile during the fight?


Game mechanics is not a logical point over here.

It has been shown in KOTOR II that Traya uses this ability in specific situations or perhaps on those individuals that can be easily killed by it.

It might be possible that instantkill ability is not effective against all kinds of odds.

Her encounter with Sion and Nihilus shows that Traya either failed to use this ability on them or it does not works on very powerful enemies.

Note: Story is always based on logic and Game Mechanics has nothing to do with it.

The same reason that Nihilus was unable to drain the Exile. He is immune to it. Traya's ability appears to be identical to Nihilus's own, but hers is not on a planet-scale.



Note: Game mechanic is a point. Are we to presume that lightsabers are less effective than the ones shown in movies because they do not immediately kill its victim, nor do they amputate limbs? Some things are due to game mechanic, and are unexplained within the story.

As for the Nihilus and Sion encounter, it is quite possible that perhaps they simply caught her off guard, or Nihilus's presence kept her from utilizing it. He is, afterall, far more powerful in terms of draining the Force than she is.

As for you, Zephiel, be realistic. When have I ever claimed to be an excellent debator? My ego is just fine, though, I will say, people seem to mention me in terms of debating skills before they mention you.

Might wanna think about that before you presume otherwise.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I have a question!

I would like to know that if Traya's instantkill ability is so effective then why she did not tried that ability on Exile during the fight?



OMG do you retards listen? She CANNOT use the instakill on the Exile because she's a WOUND IN THE FORCE . Nihlius tried to do the same thing to the Exile and IT DIDN'T WORK .

LOGICAL DEDUCTIONS

- The drain DOESN'T WORK on WOUNDS IN THE FORCE

- The drain WOULDN'T affect Nihlius or THE EXILE

- As the cut content showed the drain does NOT kill SION just slows him down some.

Hence, it would be USELESS to attempt it against either of these three people.

Ac, the cut content isn't canon. Other than that, you have the jist of it. Besides, it may just be possible that Sion's invincibility would make him able to resist it.

I was just showing what would have happened if they used the attack, also it could be the invincibility.

Originally posted by Escape81
The same reason that Nihilus was unable to drain the Exile. He is immune to it. Traya's ability appears to be identical to Nihilus's own, but hers is not on a planet-scale.

hmm! I got the point.

Originally posted by Escape81
Note: Game mechanic is a point. Are we to presume that lightsabers are less effective than the ones shown in movies because they do not immediately kill its victim, nor do they amputate limbs? Some things are due to game mechanic, and are unexplained within the story.
Game mechanics has nothing to do with story.

Originally posted by Escape81
As for the Nihilus and Sion encounter, it is quite possible that perhaps they simply caught her off guard, or Nihilus's presence kept her from utilizing it. He is, afterall, far more powerful in terms of draining the Force than she is.
A possibility perhaps but the problem is that we don't know enough details about this fight to base our comments on.

And we can only speculate here.

So, the arguement still remains.

Stop calling other retards!

You misunderstand. Game mechanic does have to do with the story, and what occurs in the game mechanic cannot always be explained by the storyline itself. That's why game mechanic is not used effectively in debates. Because what happens in it cannot be explained the storyline.



Your points have been defeated. The argument may remain, but you've got nothing. So until then, it is over.



He has no right to do that, true, but you seem to have a habit of issuing commands, or statements that we here are supposed to accept blindly and respectively. That's not how it works.

Originally posted by Escape81
You misunderstand. Game mechanic does have to do with the story, and what occurs in the game mechanic cannot always be explained by the storyline itself. That's why game mechanic is not used effectively in debates. Because what happens in it cannot be explained the storyline.
Game mechanics are about choices, features & abilities that we can use in our actions and what limitations are provided to restrict our actions during gameplay.

Thus, Game mechanics are more associated with Gameplay then Story.

Story is about an event that we witness and it is more associated with logic and reasoning then actual gameplay.

You are actaully confusing Story with limitations of Game Mechanics.

Though our choices can influence Story but it has nothing to do with specific events of Story that are not in our control. Only "logic" is the best term to explain those events.

Originally posted by Escape81
Your points have been defeated. The argument may remain, but you've got nothing. So until then, it is over.
As long as an arguement remains, it is not defeated. You have not proved anything yet to defeat my points.

You can't prove that instantkill ability can kill anyone. You are just making an assumption regarding it.

Another assumption can be made here and that is their must be some kind of defence technique to counter instantkill ability.

Remember that Traya learned this ability from somewhere and those Jedi Masters easily fell because they knew no defence techniques against the Force Drain technique demonstrated by her and the worst part is that they never felt Traya's presence so they were also caught off-guard.

Originally posted by Escape81
He has no right to do that, true, but you seem to have a habit of issuing commands, or statements that we here are supposed to accept blindly and respectively. That's not how it works.
I don't force my points on others. I just mention my points!

I'd tempted to laugh at this semi-implication, but I'm not sure what you're trying to imply, nor if you're making coherent conversation and not just irrelevant chatter.



Nihilus cannot be drained, insofar as he's a hole in the force. We've been evidenced with what happens when one drains an empty hole, and it left Nihilus weaker and able to be defeated by the Exile and his posse.

I'd argue that she isn't quite clued to their intent. She knows somethings up; and she ignites her lightsabre when Sion does so, but she doesn't throw any force powers at them whatsoever. Then, Nihilus drains her and she gets tooled.



I hardly think she was even wanting Sion to die. She has a vibroblade at the ready, and doesn't attempt to kill him when he has his back turned, she doesn't let off any force attacks at him whatsoever and when he ignites his sabre and she has a weapon at the ready; you'll notice that he swings as slowly as ever, and she doesn't even attempt to block him.



^ See above. One cannot drain a wound in the force without exponentially weakening yourself.



Why? Her primary goal was to destroy the force. How - pray tell - wouldn't she need the Exile for this? Furthermore, Traya's a manipulator, not a gun-ho fighter or flat-out warrior. She's far more stealthy and sneaky.



It's pretty clear that she demolishes them all in the force; evidenced by how she waltzes in, blasts all three to the ground and then slams Vrook back like a ragdoll. And how Kavar's lightsabre abilities are relevant to this fight, one will never know . . .



Um, did you play the game; Glentract? Or did you accidentally miss the swathes of text that deal with this. She doesn't want to destroy the Jedi and Sith; she - ideally - wants to educate them. Furthermore, her ultimate goal is the destruction of the force. If she were so dedicated on destroying the two orders, why not destroy the source of their power instead of hunting them down one by one?



On the contrary, you need to come up with some actual proof; not a load of re-hashed and fatally wrong assertions.