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Who'd take this one?

DAREDEVIL Would own him so bad its not even funny

Originally posted by jasonk3
DAREDEVIL Would own him so bad its not even funny

Yep. DD 9/10.

I dunno. Sonic grenades? I'm sure Frank has some intel on Matt...he'd be ready unless it was just a H2H brawl.

Well hand to hand , DD takes it 10/10. Now if you give Pun use of weapons and some prep time, then he should take at least 6/10. Either way DD is ment to take guys like Pun out...

Usually DD.

doesnt punisher even acknolwedge at one point that daredevil owns him in every way?
when they met on a rooftop that one time when punisher was gona assassinate that guy

i would say Daredevil takes out the Punisher, but since Frank has knowledge on Matt, he could easily just use a sonic to stun him and KO him like he's done before. Pun ftw 10/10. but w/o sonics which IMO, would make it more fair, Daredevil ftw 8/10

so wait, did u guys even see means and ends, or even when punisher first meet punisher? cuz if u didn't, u should cuz he pretty much hands dd his own ass in there first encounter, and in means and ends, or ends and means, punisher is almost dd's equal in a h2h fight, and dd is not that much superior to pun in h2h fighting, sure dd has the skills but punisher has the durability and dirty fighting skills, and iron determination...hell in a h2h fight dd takes it 7/10, in a all out fight punisher takes it 8/10, with just his usual weaponary, with prep frank takes it 10/10, it has been stated punisher misses dd on purpose....so before u guys JUMP to conclusions give respect where it is due...

When Punisher first met Daredevil, he didnt hand DD his ass. He shot him after delivering a sucker punch. If thats handing DD his ass, DD returned the favor in the very next issue. Secondly, in Means and Ends, Daredevil hands Punisher his ass for the majority of the series. Punisher isnt DD's equal in h2h in the slightest. If its a slug fest, Punsher can indeed hang, but once Eastern style comes in, Punisher knows hes done. In a h2h fight going all out, DD takes 9/10. Maybe 10/10. With prep, i do agree that Pun takes a high majority 9 or 10 as well. With standard weapons, DD still takes the majority.

dd.

Originally posted by jrodslam
When Punisher first met Daredevil, he didnt hand DD his ass. He shot him after delivering a sucker punch. If thats handing DD his ass, DD returned the favor in the very next issue. Secondly, in Means and Ends, Daredevil hands Punisher his ass for the majority of the series. Punisher isnt DD's equal in h2h in the slightest. If its a slug fest, Punsher can indeed hang, but once Eastern style comes in, Punisher knows hes done. In a h2h fight going all out, DD takes 9/10. Maybe 10/10. With prep, i do agree that Pun takes a high majority 9 or 10 as well. With standard weapons, DD still takes the majority. Suckerpunch? DD had the fukin drop on punisher and u call what punisher did a SUCKER PUNCH? Please, if anything dd suckerpunched punisher! And u forgot to mention that it has been stated that punisher purposely misses dd cuz he is considered an innocent, at anytime frank could cap dd and dd knows it...i love how u people read the story how u want to, their first meeting together was clearly in punisher's favor...and punisher can hang with dd in the h2h dept. cuz of his durability, he is def. not as skilled but he could take a punch thats for sure...just take a look at punisher respect link on my sig...

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
doesnt punisher even acknolwedge at one point that daredevil owns him in every way?
when they met on a rooftop that one time when punisher was gona assassinate that guy
Yes, he says something like that before putting on the sonic devices he had planted there. Btw, Punisher was after the Gnucci family back then, if I recall correctly...

Originally posted by Tshern
Yes, he says something like that before putting on the sonic devices he had planted there. Btw, Punisher was after the Gnucci family back then, if I recall correctly... Correct, and frank does admit this...but in upcoming marvel knights issues punisher gets the better of dd by grabing him and charging out a window, punisher uses his enviroment, plays dirty, and has boarderline supernatural durability and stamina, thats y he could take some of these h2h fights....

Originally posted by jgiant
Correct, and frank does admit this...but in upcoming marvel knights issues punisher gets the better of dd by grabing him and charging out a window, punisher uses his enviroment, plays dirty, and has boarderline supernatural durability and stamina, thats y he could take some of these h2h fights....
I don't take stance regarding the matches, but with everything else I agree. He is a damn dirty player and it gives him one damn good advantage.

Edit: And I really liked the Gnucci arc.

Originally posted by jasonk3
DAREDEVIL Would own him so bad its not even funny

QFT.

Originally posted by jgiant
Suckerpunch? DD had the fukin drop on punisher and u call what punisher did a SUCKER PUNCH? Please, if anything dd suckerpunched punisher! And u forgot to mention that it has been stated that punisher purposely misses dd cuz he is considered an innocent, at anytime frank could cap dd and dd knows it...i love how u people read the story how u want to, their first meeting together was clearly in punisher's favor...and punisher can hang with dd in the h2h dept. cuz of his durability, he is def. not as skilled but he could take a punch thats for sure...just take a look at punisher respect link on my sig...

Yes, it was a suckerpunch. The initial battle was over and Punisher wanted to ally up with Daredevil. Hell, he threw down his gun. When DD made an advancement, Pun suckerpunched him then shot him. It was as plain as day, so i dont know how you dont see it. Secondly, it being stated tha Punisher purposely missed DD is crap. Punisher doesnt have to kill DD to stop or disable him. He can just shoot him in the arm or leg. And Punisher even used tranqs and still failed to tag DD. Their first meeting wasnt in Punishers favor until the suckerpunch and shot came in. I dont read the story how i want to, i read it how it is. Theres no way Punisher can hang with DD in the h2h department if DD is trying to put him down. I do agree that Punisher can take a punch, but his "durability" isnt saving him from bodily paralysis.

Wasn't it the Punisher that Daredevil was fighting against when he slapped a pressure point on Frank's wrist, as part of a counter attack? Didn't that completely paralyze frank?

Wasn't Daredevil not even trying?

.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Yes, it was a suckerpunch. The initial battle was over and Punisher wanted to ally up with Daredevil. Hell, he threw down his gun. When DD made an advancement, Pun suckerpunched him then shot him. It was as plain as day, so i dont know how you dont see it. Secondly, it being stated tha Punisher purposely missed DD is crap. Punisher doesnt have to kill DD to stop or disable him. He can just shoot him in the arm or leg. And Punisher even used tranqs and still failed to tag DD. Their first meeting wasnt in Punishers favor until the suckerpunch and shot came in. I dont read the story how i want to, i read it how it is. Theres no way Punisher can hang with DD in the h2h department if DD is trying to put him down. I do agree that Punisher can take a punch, but his "durability" isnt saving him from bodily paralysis. I got the book right in front of me and dd comes in SUCKERPUNCHES punisher while he is beating the shit out of some junkie and then punisher kickes is ass for two panles throwing him and then dd throws his stick which gets SHOT in half...now if u call that in dd's advantage u have brain problems! then dd sees pun throw his gun down and dd goes in to finish him off "im briningin u in, just like any common--urg! and punisher kicks his ass again and leaves him for dead, thats a huge win! " I've done my Homework and i KNOW you're missing me on PURPOSE...you won't kill me." DIRECT QUOTE from dd, common!

Originally posted by jgiant
I got the book right in front of me and dd comes in SUCKERPUNCHES punisher while he is beating the shit out of some junkie and then punisher kickes is ass for two panles throwing him and then dd throws his stick which gets SHOT in half...now if u call that in dd's advantage u have brain problems! then dd sees pun throw his gun down and dd goes in to finish him off "im briningin u in, just like any common--urg! and punisher kicks his ass again and leaves him for dead, thats a huge win! " I've done my Homework and i KNOW you're missing me on PURPOSE...you won't kill me." DIRECT QUOTE from dd, common!

Uhh, i never said DD didnt suckerpunch Punisher. I am saying that before Punisher shot DD, he suckerpunched him in which you deny. I have the comic handy as well and still dont get how you dont see that. You call Punisher kicking Daredevil off him and flipping him over kicking DD's ass? Are you serious? Did i say that in that particular fight DD had the advantage? If so, show me quote where i said that. Secondly, DD didnt go to finish Punisher off. The fight was over with a standstill. DD DID go to take Punisher in but he wasnt moving in to attack. Hence the suckerpunch. He was just going to bring him in.....

Punisher - "The gloves are off this time Devl."
Daredevil - "Im glad the tranqs make you feel competitive, Frank. But you still cant tag me."

Like i stated before, Punisher not wanting to kill DD is a poor excuse for him missing DD all the time. He doesnt have to kill DD to take him out of tghe fight. Something you fail to see.

Originally posted by Soljer
Wasn't it the Punisher that Daredevil was fighting against when he slapped a pressure point on Frank's wrist, as part of a counter attack? Didn't that completely paralyze frank?

Wasn't Daredevil not even trying?

.

Naw, that was just the wrist or arm DD did that to. Punisher would be rendered totally useless if DD did that to his whole body. Something which would be much easier for him to execute than Punisher hitting him with a bullet.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Uhh, i never said DD didnt suckerpunch Punisher. I am saying that before Punisher shot DD, he suckerpunched him in which you deny. I have the comic handy as well and still dont get how you dont see that. You call Punisher kicking Daredevil off him and flipping him over kicking DD's ass? Are you serious? Did i say that in that particular fight DD had the advantage? If so, show me quote where i said that. Secondly, DD didnt go to finish Punisher off. The fight was over with a standstill. DD DID go to take Punisher in but he wasnt moving in to attack. Hence the suckerpunch. He was just going to bring him in.....

Punisher - "The gloves are off this time Devl."
Daredevil - "Im glad the tranqs make you feel competitive, Frank. But you still cant tag me."

Like i stated before, Punisher not wanting to kill DD is a poor excuse for him missing DD all the time. He doesnt have to kill DD to take him out of tghe fight. Something you fail to see. i see where ur coming from but dd still was humiliated by pun, even in the following issue punisher got the better of dd by shooting that chimeny on him, with guns dd has no chance w/o he wins but punisher has a slight chance...and yes punisher can hit dd with a shot, if u say otherwise u are foolish...

Originally posted by jgiant
i see where ur coming from but dd still was humiliated by pun, even in the following issue punisher got the better of dd by shooting that chimeny on him, with guns dd has no chance w/o he wins but punisher has a slight chance...and yes punisher can hit dd with a shot, if u say otherwise u are foolish...



You're foolish. Daredevil has been able to use his radar sense to weave between bullets before.

With incredible ease.

Just because the finger that is pulling the trigger happens to have better aim...that doesn't make the bullets travel faster or Daredevil's sense malfunction.

He dodges Punisher's gunfire the same way he dodges a random thugs.

Easily.

Originally posted by jgiant
i see where ur coming from but dd still was humiliated by pun, even in the following issue punisher got the better of dd by shooting that chimeny on him, with guns dd has no chance w/o he wins but punisher has a slight chance...and yes punisher can hit dd with a shot, if u say otherwise u are foolish...

I do agree that Punisher made DD look foolish. Those two instances are low showings for DD. Everyone has them.
Fact is, if they were both fighting at normal conditions, DD would easily beat Pun, guns or no guns. Now if Punisher had prep, hed own Daredevil.

well knowing frank he would own dd with guns, cuz dd can't dodge bullets just anticipate where they are headed, punisher is so sergical with a weapon he will eventually hit dd, even if he has to distract his senses with a grenade or explosive to do so...

Originally posted by jgiant
well knowing frank he would own dd with guns, cuz dd can't dodge bullets just anticipate where they are headed, punisher is so sergical with a weapon he will eventually hit dd, even if he has to distract his senses with a grenade or explosive to do so...

Daredevil CAN dodge bullets. There was a discussion created about that not to long ago. Daredevil is able to dodge bullets AFTER they are fired due to them cutting throught the air and him being able to "see" it. Hes also been able to recover from grenades and other loud explosions rather quickly. Sometimes not even affected at all.

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/2542/ddandbulletsif6.th.png
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/1610/daredevil19806xr7hc0.th.jpg
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/514/daredevil27216we6bs4.th.jpg

Well, Punisher has shot Spider-Man before (with a non-lethal bullet)...
Reluctantly, I am forced to agree with jgiant. The punisher respect thread really showed me how good Punisher actually is. In hand to hand, Daredevil would win after a tough, yet still one sided fight. With guns, punisher could take him after a difficult, drawn out fight. With prep, Punisher takes it, but, we all know that.

Ill give the majority of this to DD, 7/10 at least. Yes the punisher may go to shoot at DD, in the midst of his shooting DD is just going to dodge and use that billy club of his to his advantage, which he is as good with that club as punisher is with a gun. So it really just comes to a H2H, DD wins that department easily.

Daredevil ftw.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Well, Punisher has shot Spider-Man before (with a non-lethal bullet)...
Reluctantly, I am forced to agree with jgiant. The punisher respect thread really showed me how good Punisher actually is. In hand to hand, Daredevil would win after a tough, yet still one sided fight. With guns, punisher could take him after a difficult, drawn out fight. With prep, Punisher takes it, but, we all know that.

I don't care who jobbed to the Punisher. Fact is, the bullets aren't travelling any faster just because frank is pulling the trigger instead of some joe blow.

Daredevil dodges shots from the punisher as easily as he dodges bullets from anyone else.

Also, I mean...honestly...if BULLSEYE can't hit the man without fear, what chance in HELL does the Punisher have?

With weapons or not, Daredevil wins a VERY healthy majority.

With prep, Daredevil loses.

Quite that simple.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Daredevil CAN dodge bullets. There was a discussion created about that not to long ago. Daredevil is able to dodge bullets AFTER they are fired due to them cutting throught the air and him being able to "see" it. Hes also been able to recover from grenades and other loud explosions rather quickly. Sometimes not even affected at all.

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/2542/ddandbulletsif6.th.png
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/1610/daredevil19806xr7hc0.th.jpg
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/514/daredevil27216we6bs4.th.jpg Im sorry but im not impressed, if any of those guys were the punisher dd would have been dead long time ago, punisher is not gunna fire one shot and when dd dodges one he has about fifty other well placed bullets coming his way and i doubt he is gunna dodge all those, and if he does then he has grenades comin his way and he is gunna get distracted by that, and then the bullets come again and dd is eventually goin down as long as punisher keeps his distance...and then again if dd gets in close we have seen how punisher has h2h skills to at least hang with dd for a little and maybe even get the win...so h2h no guns dd 8/10, with guns pun 9/10, with prep 10/10

Originally posted by jgiant
Im sorry but im not impressed, if any of those guys were the punisher dd would have been dead long time ago, punisher is not gunna fire one shot and when dd dodges one he has about fifty other well placed bullets coming his way and i doubt he is gunna dodge all those, and if he does then he has grenades comin his way and he is gunna get distracted by that, and then the bullets come again and dd is eventually goin down as long as punisher keeps his distance...and then again if dd gets in close we have seen how punisher has h2h skills to at least hang with dd for a little and maybe even get the win...so h2h no guns dd 8/10, with guns pun 9/10, with prep 10/10



Fifty PERFECTLY placed C.o.M. shots are still gonna be travelling at the same speed. Daredevil dodges them with ease. Get over it, fanboy.

Originally posted by Soljer


Fifty PERFECTLY placed C.o.M. shots are still gonna be travelling at the same speed. Daredevil dodges them with ease. Get over it, fanboy. Yea dd will dodge on bullet, but can he won't be able to physically dodge a bullet that will be placed in a spot where he will be dodging too, punisher will intercept him, if he unloads an m-60 with all 200 rounds there is no way if punisher positions them right that dd will dodge all of them, the m-60 spits out about nine rounds every second, dd has enhanced agility, but not this good, punisher is too good with this weapon, he has sniped snipers in nam' with this weapon, dd will not survive, not possible...

Originally posted by jgiant
Im sorry but im not impressed, if any of those guys were the punisher dd would have been dead long time ago, punisher is not gunna fire one shot and when dd dodges one he has about fifty other well placed bullets coming his way and i doubt he is gunna dodge all those, and if he does then he has grenades comin his way and he is gunna get distracted by that, and then the bullets come again and dd is eventually goin down as long as punisher keeps his distance...and then again if dd gets in close we have seen how punisher has h2h skills to at least hang with dd for a little and maybe even get the win...so h2h no guns dd 8/10, with guns pun 9/10, with prep 10/10

Ah, but while Punisher is firing into a smoky area, due to him apparently firing off a thousand instantaneous projectiles, DD will have already dodged...

And then Frank's gonna need to have a billy club surgically removed from his a**.

DD ftw.

Originally posted by jgiant
Yea dd will dodge on bullet, but can he won't be able to physically dodge a bullet that will be placed in a spot where he will be dodging too, punisher will intercept him, if he unloads an m-60 with all 200 rounds there is no way if punisher positions them right that dd will dodge all of them, the m-60 spits out about nine rounds every second, dd has enhanced agility, but not this good, punisher is too good with this weapon, he has sniped snipers in nam' with this weapon, dd will not survive, not possible...

Sniped snipers in nam! OMG!

Cause I haven't hit targets at a thousand yards before.

Besides, 200 rounds? Good thing each one is only 7 millimeters wide. If the punisher puts the bullets close enough together that Daredevil CAN'T twist or turn between them, he could certainly go to either side, or OVER them.

If he puts them far enough apart that Daredevil can't go to the side of them, or over them, he can certainly twist between them.

A well written Daredevil would dodge the shots with ease, and then be on top of Frank before the Punisher knew what hit him.

And we all know that Daredevil whips up on Frank in hand to hand.

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
Ah, but while Punisher is firing into a smoky area, due to him apparently firing off a thousand instantaneous projectiles, DD will have already dodged...

And then Frank's gonna need to have a billy club surgically removed from his a**.

DD ftw.

Damn right. Daredevil can dodge bullets with ease, but I'd like to see the Punisher manage to dodge a daredevil billy club throw.

Especially one that rebounds off about five objects BEFORE it actually is implanted into the punisher's colon.

Originally posted by Soljer
Sniped snipers in nam! OMG!

Cause I haven't hit targets at a thousand yards before.

Besides, 200 rounds? Good thing each one is only 7 millimeters wide. If the punisher puts the bullets close enough together that Daredevil CAN'T twist or turn between them, he could certainly go to either side, or OVER them.

If he puts them far enough apart that Daredevil can't go to the side of them, or over them, he can certainly twist between them.

A well written Daredevil would dodge the shots with ease, and then be on top of Frank before the Punisher knew what hit him.

And we all know that Daredevil whips up on Frank in hand to hand. OMG a thousand yards with what? An m-60? No, i didn't think so? And if u did i call bs on u! And punisher hits dd, y, cuz dd can't dodge bullets that fast, he can just anticipate them, HE IS NOT FASTER THAN A BULLET, especially when he is up against a fully automatic weapon, tring to explain this to u guys is like talking to a wall, yea i kno dd has "dodged" bullets before, but not like this when someone thiss good is behind the weapon, and bullseye doesn't use automatic machine guns that often...

Originally posted by jgiant
OMG a thousand yards with what? An m-60? No, i didn't think so? And if u did i call bs on u! And punisher hits dd, y, cuz dd can't dodge bullets that fast, he can just anticipate them, HE IS NOT FASTER THAN A BULLET, especially when he is up against a fully automatic weapon, tring to explain this to u guys is like talking to a wall, yea i kno dd has "dodged" bullets before, but not like this when someone thiss good is behind the weapon, and bullseye doesn't use automatic machine guns that often...



I'm not saying that Daredevil can MOVE faster than a bullet, I'm saying that, apparently, his brain can process information at speeds FAR exceeding that of a bullet. His radar sense sensed each bullet as it was fired, he knew where it was even before the shooter did. He'll know where these are going, even before the punisher does. He'll be able to dodge them with just as much ease.

And besides, bullseye HAS used firearms before. Made no difference.

Seriously, man, I'm sorry that your favorite character loses, but get over it. He just can't compete with someone that has a superior power selection, without some serious PIS, or Jobbing. It's really that simple, .

Originally posted by jgiant
OMG a thousand yards with what? An m-60? No, i didn't think so? And if u did i call bs on u! And punisher hits dd, y, cuz dd can't dodge bullets that fast, he can just anticipate them, HE IS NOT FASTER THAN A BULLET, especially when he is up against a fully automatic weapon, tring to explain this to u guys is like talking to a wall, yea i kno dd has "dodged" bullets before, but not like this when someone thiss good is behind the weapon, and bullseye doesn't use automatic machine guns that often...

You have to realize that , if well written, DD's powers are ideal, and suited perfectly for taking out guys exactly like Bullseye, Punisher, and those sorts.

Also, I heard of a feat where Bullseye threw a toothpick through BULLET PROOF glass, and killed a person on the other side. This may be false, but I thought I'd mention it. After all, wouldnt that toothpick have to be going pretty damn fast ?

And whether Punisher is pulling the trigger is truly irrelevant. the only thing that affects the chance of DD dodging it is the spped of the bullet. And Frank doesnt affect that. Sorry fanboy.

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
You have to realize that , if well written, DD's powers are ideal, and suited perfectly for taking out guys exactly like Bullseye, Punisher, and those sorts.

Also, I heard of a feat where Bullseye threw a toothpick through BULLET PROOF glass, and killed a person on the other side. This may be false, but I thought I'd mention it. After all, wouldnt that toothpick have to be going pretty damn fast ?

And whether Punisher is pulling the trigger is truly irrelevant. the only thing that affects the chance of DD dodging it is the spped of the bullet. And Frank doesnt affect that. Sorry fanboy.

Quoted for mother ****in Truth!

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
Also, I heard of a feat where Bullseye threw a toothpick through BULLET PROOF glass, and killed a person on the other side. This may be false, but I thought I'd mention it. After all, wouldnt that toothpick have to be going pretty damn fast ?
I don't believe it was bulletproof, but he did throw a toothpick through a window 100 yards away and kill someone.

Originally posted by Soljer
Quoted for mother ****in Truth!



Originally posted by Accel
I don't believe it was bulletproof, but he did throw a toothpick through a window 100 yards away and kill someone.

Well, I wont argue over specifics. The feat still holds it's integrity.

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
You have to realize that , if well written, DD's powers are ideal, and suited perfectly for taking out guys exactly like Bullseye, Punisher, and those sorts.

Also, I heard of a feat where Bullseye threw a toothpick through BULLET PROOF glass, and killed a person on the other side. This may be false, but I thought I'd mention it. After all, wouldnt that toothpick have to be going pretty damn fast ?

And whether Punisher is pulling the trigger is truly irrelevant. the only thing that affects the chance of DD dodging it is the spped of the bullet. And Frank doesnt affect that. Sorry fanboy. Punisher shooting at dd, dd dodges it, punisher throws some grenades into the mix, dd dodges them but to avoid the grenade dd must move out of its radius of damage which is large, punisher will make it so dd has only one area to move to, so he can nail him with some bullets or even another grenade...u guys make it sound like dd is superhuman, he isn't bulletproof and he will get hurt from shrapnel...u guys have to give punisher respect where it is due, i kno punisher will lose in a h2h battle, it would be close at times, but common punisher will take dd out with guns, dd even said it and to say that he has other ways of incapacitating dd i could say that is psi too...but u guys will never listen to my fanboy chatter so i'll just say i can agree to disagree...

Originally posted by jgiant
my fanboy chatter

The truest thing you've said this entire thread.

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
You have to realize that , if well written, DD's powers are ideal, and suited perfectly for taking out guys exactly like Bullseye, Punisher, and those sorts.

Also, I heard of a feat where Bullseye threw a toothpick through BULLET PROOF glass, and killed a person on the other side. This may be false, but I thought I'd mention it. After all, wouldnt that toothpick have to be going pretty damn fast ?

And whether Punisher is pulling the trigger is truly irrelevant. the only thing that affects the chance of DD dodging it is the spped of the bullet. And Frank doesnt affect that. Sorry fanboy. I disagree with this. Who's firing matters entirely. If Punisher fires concentrated bursts that force DD into a corner, he cannot dodge it. He's not superhumanly fast. He does indeed dodge bullets all the time, because he's trained to know exactly how most gunmen fire and that the first shot is always the most accurate. After that, muzzleflash, kickback and muscle strain will always affect accuracy making it all the easier for DD. Depending on how good the gunman is and how good the gun is, DD cannot dodge bullets.

It's never been more clear than in DD #88. When Paladin fired his shot, it was out of the range of DD's radar senses. By the time the bullet came into his radar range, he could not react in time. It was too late. Only when the bullet is fired and DD can study it at that instant of discharge, does DD dodge bullets. What exactly should be taken from this example is this premise: "His radar sense must sense the discharge in order to have that split second in time in order to dodge a bullet. Therefore, DD cannot dodge a bullet through his own agility and speed alone."

DD doesn't dodge bullets like Superman or Spiderman. He dodges them differently, and the better the shooter, the better chance there is to nail him. For Bullseye's defense, Bullseye uses a lot of unconventional weaponry which totally surprise and makes it more effective on normal people because they underestimate or don't expect it from him. He rarely throws things that are as fast as bullets or can be thrown as quickly in succession as bullets are fired. And DD knows Bullseye. That's why Bullseye misses DD. Not because DD is faster than bullets. He's not. BTW, I totally can believe Bullseye can throw things as fast as bullets or nearly as fast. I watched on National Geogrpahic where a Chinese guy throws a toothpick through plate glass half an inch thick. Granted, he was five feet away, but it's about angle, precision and pure speed to pentrate something that thick with a toothpick and that Chinese guy practiced long enough to do it. But Bullseye doesn't throw things in as quick a succession as a simple gun can.

People should read Garth Ennis' Punisher under Marvel Max and DD/Punisher 'Means and Ends.' DD outclasses Castle in everyway, but Frank is still no pushover. Even in a straightup fist-fight, he can surprise DD. And if Punisher really wanted DD dead, he'd probably be dead a long time ago. That's the real reason Castle does not win.

DD 7/10

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=424776

It doesnt matter about a controlled burst shot, or a gerenade here or there, it comes down to once Frank pulls that trigger and misses that one time, hes got a billy club in his ass and the fight is over.

Contrary to what would appear to be popular belief here who is pulling the trigger does matter. In the case that it is the Punisher all he need do is lead the target, much like he has done to Spider-man. Shoot where your opponent is going not where he is. It is a tactic used in fighter ( aircraft ) combat all the time. Castles other option is to force Murdock into a situation where he cannot dodge, again a tactic already employed by Frank when he took out Spider-mans web shooters mid-swing. Oh and the most important point I can make here is the he has shot Matt before, that alone should be a huge indicator that he can do it.

On the subject of hand-to-hand regardless of whether he chooses to use it The Punisher is familiar with the "Eastern stuff". Even in predominately HtH combat he has shown the ability to take out DareDevil. In "Means and Ends" he more less makes Murdock look the fool. Matt pounds on Frank for like 4 or more panels, then when Frank is done dealing with it he knocks Matty boy on his ass. Hell by the end of the arc they are both maimed. For those claiming that Daredevil won straight up, I feel the need to point out that The Punisher was still moving and as long as he is moving the fights not over. I don't have the book handy, but after "DD won" didn't Castle manage to pick up his gone and shoot some intruders? Then their is the already mentioned incident in "Confederacy of Dunces" I think it was where The Punisher knocked Daredevil of a fire escape and landed on him or some such. As an aside that would be one of the instances where if Castle had wanted to shoot Murdock would have been hard pressed to dodge.

While prep time has been mentioned it should be noted that Frank is a far better tactician then Murdock or at least from what I have seen and this is not just at the planing stage it is all the way through to a punch up. For those of you wondering it does make a difference not only does it allow the afore mentioned use of the environment, but also that the one with a plan will fight on his terms and pull his opponent into his kind of fight. It kind of like a wrestler going to ground with a boxer.

Bloodlusted The Punisher is likely just to nuke the whole block and it'd still be a victory for him as his target was eliminated which means the op was a success. He is a soldier casualties ( even him ) are part of the deal.

Originally posted by Nightstick
Contrary to what would appear to be popular belief here who is pulling the trigger does matter. In the case that it is the Punisher all he need do is lead the target, much like he has done to Spider-man. Shoot where your opponent is going not where he is. It is a tactic used in fighter ( aircraft ) combat all the time. Castles other option is to force Murdock into a situation where he cannot dodge, again a tactic already employed by Frank when he took out Spider-mans web shooters mid-swing. Oh and the most important point I can make here is the he has shot Matt before, that alone should be a huge indicator that he can do it.

On the subject of hand-to-hand regardless of whether he chooses to use it The Punisher is familiar with the "Eastern stuff". Even in predominately HtH combat he has shown the ability to take out DareDevil. In "Means and Ends" he more less makes Murdock look the fool. Matt pounds on Frank for like 4 or more panels, then when Frank is done dealing with it he knocks Matty boy on his ass. Hell by the end of the arc they are both maimed. For those claiming that Daredevil won straight up, I feel the need to point out that The Punisher was still moving and as long as he is moving the fights not over. I don't have the book handy, but after "DD won" didn't Castle manage to pick up his gone and shoot some intruders? Then their is the already mentioned incident in "Confederacy of Dunces" I think it was where The Punisher knocked Daredevil of a fire escape and landed on him or some such. As an aside that would be one of the instances where if Castle had wanted to shoot Murdock would have been hard pressed to dodge.

While prep time has been mentioned it should be noted that Frank is a far better tactician then Murdock or at least from what I have seen and this is not just at the planing stage it is all the way through to a punch up. For those of you wondering it does make a difference not only does it allow the afore mentioned use of the environment, but also that the one with a plan will fight on his terms and pull his opponent into his kind of fight. It kind of like a wrestler going to ground with a boxer.

Bloodlusted The Punisher is likely just to nuke the whole block and it'd still be a victory for him as his target was eliminated which means the op was a success. He is a soldier casualties ( even him ) are part of the deal. Finally some common sense, i ve been trin to explain this to these guys for days but im that good at it, hopefully ur words will help sway their anti-frank mindset...

Originally posted by jgiant
Finally some common sense, i ve been trin to explain this to these guys for days but im that good at it, hopefully ur words will help sway their anti-frank mindset...

No one is anti-frank.

We're just pro-common-sense.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I disagree with this. Who's firing matters entirely. If Punisher fires concentrated bursts that force DD into a corner, he cannot dodge it. He's not superhumanly fast. He does indeed dodge bullets all the time, because he's trained to know exactly how most gunmen fire and that the first shot is always the most accurate. After that, muzzleflash, kickback and muscle strain will always affect accuracy making it all the easier for DD. Depending on how good the gunman is and how good the gun is, DD cannot dodge bullets.

I think whos firing matters to a degree in certain cases, but not in DD's case much. True someone with exceptional gun skills and tactics can fire to the point they lead their target into a corner, but because of DD's senses, he should never get cornered like so. This is one persone whos usually always aware of his surroundings. Secndly, if theres a way to get to the shooter, thats what DD does. He tries to close the gap the majority of the time instead of dodging entire clips/rounds. I do believe even if you have a top notch gunman, DD could still dodge the bullets or close the gap between him and the shooter. Just alot harder to do so.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
It's never been more clear than in DD #88. When Paladin fired his shot, it was out of the range of DD's radar senses. By the time the bullet came into his radar range, he could not react in time. It was too late. Only when the bullet is fired and DD can study it at that instant of discharge, does DD dodge bullets. What exactly should be taken from this example is this premise: "His radar sense must sense the discharge in order to have that split second in time in order to dodge a bullet. Therefore, DD cannot dodge a bullet through his own agility and speed alone."

In regards to DD#88, i think you mean DD v2 #79. I think thats a low showing for the radar. It would make sense that the shot was out of range and it would make sense that by time the bullet did get in range of his radar, he was to slow to react. HOWEVER, the fact that DD couldnt react in time is a low showing of the radar because as the bullet cuts through the air, DD is able to perceive it from more than 30 feet away. He should also be able to Hear the shot from over a mile away(Unless silecnced).

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
DD doesn't dodge bullets like Superman or Spiderman. He dodges them differently, and the better the shooter, the better chance there is to nail him.

Daredevil does dodge bullets moreso like Spiderman. They both rely on their senses primarily and agility and speed come secondary. At least thats how i see it. I do agree that the better the shooter, the better chance to nail him. However shooters dont come better than Bullseye, Punisher and Deadpool.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
For Bullseye's defense, Bullseye uses a lot of unconventional weaponry which totally surprise and makes it more effective on normal people because they underestimate or don't expect it from him. He rarely throws things that are as fast as bullets or can be thrown as quickly in succession as bullets are fired. And DD knows Bullseye. That's why Bullseye misses DD. Not because DD is faster than bullets. He's not.

I agree. Its those dam senses. Hed always be a move ahead than Bullseye can throw.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
BTW, I totally can believe Bullseye can throw things as fast as bullets or nearly as fast. But Bullseye doesn't throw things in as quick a succession as a simple gun can.

Agreed. Save for when he just throws tham all at the same time.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
People should read Garth Ennis' Punisher under Marvel Max and DD/Punisher 'Means and Ends.' DD outclasses Castle in everyway, but Frank is still no pushover. Even in a straightup fist-fight, he can surprise DD. And if Punisher really wanted DD dead, he'd probably be dead a long time ago. That's the real reason Castle does not win.

DD 7/10

I dont think Franks a pushover in any way. In a well written straight up fist fight, he should never surprise DD. I do agree that if Punisher really wanted DD dead, hed be dead a long time ago. However i think thats only with the use of prep. No way Punishers hitting DD with a bullet. Even if he wanted to kill him.

Originally posted by Nightstick
Contrary to what would appear to be popular belief here who is pulling the trigger does matter. In the case that it is the Punisher all he need do is lead the target, much like he has done to Spider-man. Shoot where your opponent is going not where he is. It is a tactic used in fighter ( aircraft ) combat all the time. Castles other option is to force Murdock into a situation where he cannot dodge, again a tactic already employed by Frank when he took out Spider-mans web shooters mid-swing. Oh and the most important point I can make here is the he has shot Matt before, that alone should be a huge indicator that he can do it.

Like i stated before. If it were other targets, leading them would work. "Shoot where your opponent is going" wouldnt be an effective strategy against Daredevil because he knows where the shooter is aiming and is going to shoot unlike Spidey. Thus the shooters tactic of leading the target doesnt apply much to DD. Its been mentioned that Punisher alread shot DD. True, but thats a very low showing for DD. If we hold low showings as evident, many battles on this forum would be based off of them. That shouldnt be the case.

Originally posted by Nightstick
On the subject of hand-to-hand regardless of whether he chooses to use it The Punisher is familiar with the "Eastern stuff". Even in predominately HtH combat he has shown the ability to take out DareDevil.

He may be familiar with Eastern, but it doesnt meant hes adept with it or can defend it usefully.

Originally posted by Nightstick
In "Means and Ends" he more less makes Murdock look the fool. Matt pounds on Frank for like 4 or more panels, then when Frank is done dealing with it he knocks Matty boy on his ass. Hell by the end of the arc they are both maimed.

Uhh. Maybe you was reading something i wasnt. Daredevil was handing Frank his ass through the entire series. The final battle was made to look interesting instad of being just another "Daredevil owning Punisher" fight.

Originally posted by Nightstick
For those claiming that Daredevil won straight up, I feel the need to point out that The Punisher was still moving and as long as he is moving the fights not over.

Well considering that by time the little boy picked up the gun, Daredevil was ready to finish Castle. The boy had the gun pointed at DD to protect the Punisher. DD was standing and had Pubnisher by the throat on his knees.

Originally posted by Nightstick
I don't have the book handy, but after "DD won" didn't Castle manage to pick up his gone and shoot some intruders? Then their is the already mentioned incident in "Confederacy of Dunces" I think it was where The Punisher knocked Daredevil of a fire escape and landed on him or some such. As an aside that would be one of the instances where if Castle had wanted to shoot Murdock would have been hard pressed to dodge.

Punisher managed to pick up the gun and shoot the 2 intruders AFTER DD took out the first one with the shotgun which allowed Punisher to even go for the gun. If DD wasnt there Pun would have been dead. Like stated before, everyone has low showings. Every fight cant have DD totally dominating. Although he does get the majority over Frank most of the time.

Originally posted by Nightstick
While prep time has been mentioned it should be noted that Frank is a far better tactician then Murdock or at least from what I have seen and this is not just at the planing stage it is all the way through to a punch up. For those of you wondering it does make a difference not only does it allow the afore mentioned use of the environment, but also that the one with a plan will fight on his terms and pull his opponent into his kind of fight. It kind of like a wrestler going to ground with a boxer.

That one is hard to call. DD is a pretty good tactician depending whoes he going up against. Most of the time, Matt is outmanned AND outgunned. All he uses is 2 billy clubs to where Punisher may be outmanned, but his weapons usually make up for that. I do think Frank is a much better planner than Matt, but thats in the prep department. In battle, id have to sat DD is the better tactician.

Originally posted by Nightstick
Bloodlusted The Punisher is likely just to nuke the whole block and it'd still be a victory for him as his target was eliminated which means the op was a success. He is a soldier casualties ( even him ) are part of the deal.

I guess if killing himself along with his opponent counts as a win....

i got this what if comic book it is called what if Punisher killed daredevil

Originally posted by trademark
i got this what if comic book it is called what if Punisher killed daredevil



I'm happy for you. Now, run along kiddo.

haha i am not a kid

Your syntax and logical deductive reasoning implies otherwise.

Originally posted by trademark
i got this what if comic book it is called what if Punisher killed daredevil

Yea gotta love those What if? books. In that same comic, he shoots hospitalized and then later killed Spidey too.

Personally, in 'Means and Ends,' I totally believe DD rocked the crap out of Punisher. In nearly every battle they've had, Punisher gets outclassed and at best, gets some good shots in or manages to get away. Punisher himself knows this. And what I mean by Punisher being able to surprise DD is that in a throw down fist-fight, he can distract DD, like how he started to take a romping in DD/Punisher #6 and then starts laughing in the middle of the fight.

And for all of DD's skills, like Castle says in the very first issue, "It doesn't matter. I can take it. I'm a rock."

Originally posted by jrodslam
Yea gotta love those What if? books. In that same comic, he shoots hospitalized and then later killed Spidey too.

I know it was sad