Islam and Porn

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vintageSW77
Now i work in an office with restricted net access so i nip into the library near my workplace on my dinner break nearly every working day to check my hotmail..
I work in a town called Oldham and it has a very large muslim population and this means the libraries computers are used by on the whole by asian men.FACT
Many of them are in their muslim robes and sit there and ask each other "how was your Eid?" etc and what are a lot of these muslim men with their monitors turned at an angle watching????
Porn.....thats right PORN.
Big Booty girls with Big Bootys rubbing ointment onto themseles to the right of me this particular dinner break....this wasnt an asian dude in sportswear..he had the whole muslim robes thing goin on.
Yesterday to my right was a dude watching a bit of penetration goin on onscreen with his hand moving in his pocket and he certainly wasnt looking for his pendant with Allah Ackbar engraved on it.If this was a one off..fine..BUT ITS EVERY DAY!
The search bars are chock full of porn look ups,well that and Tupac.
It aint exactly a big muslim wank-a-thon but its getting to the point where complaints are going to be made.
So imagine my surprise when i read this when i did a bit of research-

Lowering the Gaze
When such images become prevalent in a society, what is deemed pornographic changes drastically. The very standard of modesty, which should be a defining characteristic of Muslim dress and behavior, will become degraded. The Islamic standard must be upheld. The true believer fears Allah's judgement and knows that no act will go unaccounted for and that even his own eyes will bear witness against him on the Day of Judgement. Allah (swt) says: "Until, when they reach it (Hell-Fire) their hearing and eyes and skin will testify against them as to what they used to do." Rasoolullah (saws) warned us that there is a zinaa of the eyes just as there is a zinaa of the private parts.
The Islamic solution to living in a society where pornographic images are so visible is to lower one's gaze




So can anyone tell me what the script is with Islam and pornography?

Alfheim
Originally posted by vintageSW77
Now i work in an office with restricted net access so i nip into the library near my workplace on my dinner break nearly every working day to check my hotmail..
I work in a town called Oldham and it has a very large muslim population and this means the libraries computers are used by on the whole by asian men.FACT
Many of them are in their muslim robes and sit there and ask each other "how was your Eid?" etc and what are a lot of these muslim men with their monitors turned at an angle watching????
Porn.....thats right PORN.
Big Booty girls with Big Bootys rubbing ointment onto themseles to the right of me this particular dinner break....this wasnt an asian dude in sportswear..he had the whole muslim robes thing goin on.
Yesterday to my right was a dude watching a bit of penetration goin on onscreen with his hand moving in his pocket and he certainly wasnt looking for his pendant with Allah Ackbar engraved on it.If this was a one off..fine..BUT ITS EVERY DAY!
The search bars are chock full of porn look ups,well that and Tupac.
It aint exactly a big muslim wank-a-thon but its getting to the point where complaints are going to be made.
So imagine my surprise when i read this when i did a bit of research-

Lowering the Gaze
When such images become prevalent in a society, what is deemed pornographic changes drastically. The very standard of modesty, which should be a defining characteristic of Muslim dress and behavior, will become degraded. The Islamic standard must be upheld. The true believer fears Allah's judgement and knows that no act will go unaccounted for and that even his own eyes will bear witness against him on the Day of Judgement. Allah (swt) says: "Until, when they reach it (Hell-Fire) their hearing and eyes and skin will testify against them as to what they used to do." Rasoolullah (saws) warned us that there is a zinaa of the eyes just as there is a zinaa of the private parts.
The Islamic solution to living in a society where pornographic images are so visible is to lower one's gaze

NOT IN OLDHAM IT SEEMS

Thats why I dont have time for muslims screaming on about how society needs to accomdate them more. The fact of the matter is their rules are unpractical and not really any use to anybody, just bloody hypocrisy.

Well pornography is not allowed in Islam.

vintageSW77
Thanks for clearing this up and apologies for before Alfheim.
Youre alright.

Alfheim
Originally posted by vintageSW77
Thanks for clearing this up and apologies for before Alfheim.
Youre alright.


Ok thats cool. big grin

lord xyz
Maybe they're just pretending to be musilm.

Alfheim
Originally posted by lord xyz
Maybe they're just pretending to be musilm.

Yeah whatever. Wheres Alliance?

DigiMark007
It;s all relative to one's perspective. And if they were truly enlightened, they'd realize it's all the same thing...it only depends on one's state of mind, whether or not something is pornographic or not.

It's quite honestly a fruitless discussion, and only worthwhile for religious-minded zealots who feel that it's possible to determine a set standard for life by looking at an obscure and out-of-date text.

...

But older men looking at porn in a library amuses the hell out of me. Nice thread. smile

Fatima
Originally posted by vintageSW77
Now i work in an office with restricted net access so i nip into the library near my workplace on my dinner break nearly every working day to check my hotmail..
I work in a town called Oldham and it has a very large muslim population and this means the libraries computers are used by on the whole by asian men.FACT
Many of them are in their muslim robes and sit there and ask each other "how was your Eid?" etc and what are a lot of these muslim men with their monitors turned at an angle watching????
Porn.....thats right PORN.
Big Booty girls with Big Bootys rubbing ointment onto themseles to the right of me this particular dinner break....this wasnt an asian dude in sportswear..he had the whole muslim robes thing goin on.
Yesterday to my right was a dude watching a bit of penetration goin on onscreen with his hand moving in his pocket and he certainly wasnt looking for his pendant with Allah Ackbar engraved on it.If this was a one off..fine..BUT ITS EVERY DAY!
The search bars are chock full of porn look ups,well that and Tupac.
It aint exactly a big muslim wank-a-thon but its getting to the point where complaints are going to be made.
So imagine my surprise when i read this when i did a bit of research-

Lowering the Gaze
When such images become prevalent in a society, what is deemed pornographic changes drastically. The very standard of modesty, which should be a defining characteristic of Muslim dress and behavior, will become degraded. The Islamic standard must be upheld. The true believer fears Allah's judgement and knows that no act will go unaccounted for and that even his own eyes will bear witness against him on the Day of Judgement. Allah (swt) says: "Until, when they reach it (Hell-Fire) their hearing and eyes and skin will testify against them as to what they used to do." Rasoolullah (saws) warned us that there is a zinaa of the eyes just as there is a zinaa of the private parts.
The Islamic solution to living in a society where pornographic images are so visible is to lower one's gaze




So can anyone tell me what the script is with Islam and pornography?





Pornography and the culture of pornography has all the three elements which God has prohibited in the above verse of the Quran: Fuhsha; Munkar, baghi. Here is a bit of terminology before we review the rest of the evidence prohibiting pornography.

Fuhsha:
According to the Al-Mawrid Arabic-English dictionary of Munir Baalbaki, Fuhash is obscenity, vulgarity, indecency, shamelessness and something that is dirty, filthy and foul. Al-Mawrid's English-Arabic dictionary translates pornographic as Fahish. The Hans Wehr Dictionary Of Modern Written Arabic adds monstrosity, abomination, vile deed and fornication to its meaning as well.

Fuhsha, translated as anything shameful, is a Quranic term which in the Quran and Hadith has been used widely for unIslamic sexual behavior. The Quran uses it as in the above verse (Quran 16:90). It is a set of vices that embraces the whole range of evil and shameful deeds. Scholars of the Quran have included every vice which is intrinsically of a highly reprehensible character into this category whether it be fornication, nudity, public foreplay as depicted in films and photos, pornography, hurling abuses and curse words, promiscuous mixing, or dresses designed to expose the body. At the highest level of Fuhsha, Allah has included adultery (Quran 17:32) and same gender sex (Quran 7:80; 27:54).

All scholars agree pornography is included in the term Fuhsha.

Al-Munkar
Al-Mawrid English - Arabic Dictionary describes Munkar as gross, abominable, detestable, atrocious, outrageous, flagrant.

As a major Quranic term it means something which is universally acknowledged as bad and immoral. This category includes all evils which have been unanimously condemned by the human conscience and which have been forbidden by Divine Law in all ages.

People of all faiths abhor pornography. Even the norms of American society do not allow its propagation in mainstream newspapers and prime time TV, forcing it to hide in dark alleys. Those who are addicted to pornography try to watch it mostly discreetly. This indicates that it is a universally accepted immoral act which Quran calls al-Munkar.

Al-Baghi

According to Al-Mawrid English - Arabic dictionary, this term means wrong, injustice, outrage, and transgression.

Al-Baghi in the Quranic terminology means transgression and trespassing into the space and the rights of others, whether those rights be of God or of a fellow human being. Pornography is a transgression towards God as well as towards human beings and animals. The pornographic industry trespasses on the rights of women especially by turning them into sex objects. Pornographic emails trespass the private email boxes of Americans at least four times a day.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Fatima
Al-Baghi in the Quranic terminology means transgression and trespassing into the space and the rights of others, whether those rights be of God or of a fellow human being. Pornography is a transgression towards God as well as towards human beings and animals. The pornographic industry trespasses on the rights of women especially by turning them into sex objects. Pornographic emails trespass the private email boxes of Americans at least four times a day.

Pornography objectifies both MEN AND WOMEN, but both sexes get paid, so I see no oppression involved.

Islam as a religion oppresses women, especially in the deeper Islamic lands. I find it so hypocritical that you will argue how Pornography demeans women, when in Muslim Fundmentalist Nations women can be murdered for not covering up, for cheating on thier husbands, or for "disgracing" thier families.

I would rather have people enjoying explosure to highly sexual material than get needlessly executed for unfamiliar sexual orientation.

In Iraq, for example, two gay teenagers were executed by being hung. Simply because they had sex. The Islamic Law in this case is dispicable and barbaric.

Sorry, but like Lil Bitchiness, I do not care for the Religion of Islam in its fundamental form. Luckily, in the United States, Islam has been SLIGHTLY Liberalized, so that EXTREMISM that exists in Islamic nations is not abundant here.

Mindship
What's the freakin' mystery?

Biology, baby! Whatever other purposes we may assign ourselves as thinking beings, we arrived first as biological beings, and as biological beings our One and Only Purpose is to reproduce.

Sex. Sex. Sex.

Nature made sure the Urge to Merge is virtually overpowering, otherwise, well, there wouldn't be any porn and no one to look at it.

Of course, in the library was also just a sampling of the Less Devout, Less Disciplined. The Real are home or in their places of worship...slaying the dragon. wink

Jim Reaper
Originally posted by Mindship
What's the freakin' mystery?

Biology, baby! Whatever other purposes we may assign ourselves as thinking beings, we arrived first as biological beings, and as biological beings our One and Only Purpose is to reproduce.

Sex. Sex. Sex.



Exactly. I've had pornography and prostitutes presented to me numerous times, while I served in Iraq. It's everywhere...

Alliance
Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah whatever. Wheres Alliance?

Right here.

Everyone does crap against their religion. Religion is a giant f*ck-up.

Robtard
Originally posted by Alliance
Right here.

Everyone does crap against their religion. Religion is a giant f*ck-up.

Sad thing too, if people would use it as a tool for guidance and not a rulebook of absolutes which needs to be followed or else the world would be a better place imo.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Robtard
Sad thing too, if people would use it as a tool for guidance and not a rulebook of absolutes which needs to be followed or else the world would be a better place imo.

Exxxxxactly.

vintageSW77
Originally posted by Jim Reaper
Exactly. I've had pornography and prostitutes presented to me numerous times, while I served in Iraq. It's everywhere...

Yeah but these dudes seek it out.
They dont log on and POW its there.
The library has restrictions on Porn...so not only are these dudes accessing it they also know where to get it and how to go against the librarys system...which takes effort.
If it was a bunch of kids in trackies n sneakers fine but these dudes obviously were in the full get up.....one even waved goodbye to his missus/sister who was in full veil...a tad hipocritical.

NICE!

Alfheim
Originally posted by vintageSW77
Yeah but these dudes seek it out.
They dont log on and POW its there.
The library has restrictions on Porn...so not only are these dudes accessing it they also know where to get it and how to go against the librarys system...which takes effort.
If it was a bunch of kids in trackies n sneakers fine but these dudes obviously were in the full get up.....one even waved goodbye to his missus/sister who was in full veil...a tad hipocritical.

NICE!

Dont get me started! If you've known me long enough on this forum I tend to rant on about these thing and I have to stop myself from saying something really nasty, so sometimes when Islam come up I try to avoid discussing it.

*twitch* *twitch*

Fatima
Originally posted by vintageSW77
Yeah but these dudes seek it out.
They dont log on and POW its there.
The library has restrictions on Porn...so not only are these dudes accessing it they also know where to get it and how to go against the librarys system...which takes effort.
If it was a bunch of kids in trackies n sneakers fine but these dudes obviously were in the full get up.....one even waved goodbye to his missus/sister who was in full veil...a tad hipocritical.

NICE!








I dont know what the purpose behind this topic , but i think we told you that porn is forbidden in Islam ...

porn its addiction ,like drugs and alcohol ..and islam forbid the things that damage the brain ..

Fatima
Originally posted by Alfheim
Dont get me started! If you've known me long enough on this forum I tend to rant on about these thing and I have to stop myself from saying something really nasty, so sometimes when Islam come up I try to avoid discussing it.

*twitch* *twitch*




No body force you to comment ,Alfheim confused

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Fatima
I dont know what the purpose behind this topic , but i think we told you that porn is forbidden in Islam ...

porn its addiction ,like drugs and alcohol ..and islam forbid the things that damage the brain ..

How does Porn damage the Brain ?

Do you have any idea what you are talking about ?

Alliance
Originally posted by Alfheim
Exxxxxactly.

Exactly.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Alliance
Exactly.

We actually agree on something...... confused

RocasAtoll
Originally posted by Fatima
I dont know what the purpose behind this topic , but i think we told you that porn is forbidden in Islam ...

porn its addiction ,like drugs and alcohol ..and islam forbid the things that damage the brain ..

Then why is 80% of internet traffic in UAE sex sites?

Alliance
Originally posted by Alfheim
We actually agree on something...... confused

Yes. That seems to be the case stick out tongue

Alfheim
Originally posted by Alliance
Yes. That seems to be the case stick out tongue

You're not such a jerk after all. stick out tongue

Fatima
Originally posted by RocasAtoll
Then why is 80% of internet traffic in UAE sex sites?



There is more than 120 nationalites exist in UAE ,and they present 85% of UAE population , i dont defend on the local people but not all people are religious ,i guess most of them are teens .


60% of americans wife cheated thier husband also ,but that doesnt mean all women are cheater ..

Alfheim
Originally posted by Fatima
There is more than 120 nationalites exist in UAE ,and they present 85% of UAE population , i dont defend on the local people but not all people are religious ,i guess most of them are teens .


60% of americans wife cheated thier husband also ,but that doesnt mean all women are cheater ..

Yes but we dont have a problem with muslims watching porn, we have a problem with muslims screaming about how the west does not accomdate them enough and then seeking out porn.

lil bitchiness
Fatima, no.
There is nothing wrong with porn, or sex.

You need to think in less ego centrical way.

Seriously, do you believe that there will be an all mighty, all wise creator of the universe out there, who is concerned with everything you do and takes a particular interest in your sex life?

Creater of the universe...creater of everything beautiful, all we can see and cant see and all the rest...wants to know about your sex life....and wether you chose to watch or be in a porn movie...

Seriously...

Alliance
Originally posted by Alfheim
You're not such a jerk after all. stick out tongue

We just started dancing and stepped on eachothers feet a few times.

Originally posted by Fatima
There is more than 120 nationalites exist in UAE ,and they present 85% of UAE population , i dont defend on the local people but not all people are religious ,i guess most of them are teens.

Regardless, the problem persists. THis just goes to show that ignoring the problem or pretending it doesn't exist. Having an Islmaic government does not make your nation more moral.

~Flamboyant~
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Pornography objectifies both MEN AND WOMEN, but both sexes get paid, so I see no oppression involved.

Islam as a religion oppresses women, especially in the deeper Islamic lands. I find it so hypocritical that you will argue how Pornography demeans women, when in Muslim Fundmentalist Nations women can be murdered for not covering up, for cheating on thier husbands, or for "disgracing" thier families.

I would rather have people enjoying explosure to highly sexual material than get needlessly executed for unfamiliar sexual orientation.

In Iraq, for example, two gay teenagers were executed by being hung. Simply because they had sex. The Islamic Law in this case is dispicable and barbaric.

Sorry, but like Lil Bitchiness, I do not care for the Religion of Islam in its fundamental form. Luckily, in the United States, Islam has been SLIGHTLY Liberalized, so that EXTREMISM that exists in Islamic nations is not abundant here. It's not the religion that opresses them. It's the country.

Alliance
The nation uses religon as a means of oppression.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Alliance
The nation uses religon as a means of oppression.

THANK YOU

Alliance
wy smile

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Fatima, no.
There is nothing wrong with porn, or sex.

You need to think in less ego centrical way.

Seriously, do you believe that there will be an all mighty, all wise creator of the universe out there, who is concerned with everything you do and takes a particular interest in your sex life?

Creater of the universe...creater of everything beautiful, all we can see and cant see and all the rest...wants to know about your sex life....and wether you chose to watch or be in a porn movie...

Seriously...


Sadly, it is going to be a LOOONG TIME before the majority of the religious people realize how closed off thier mind is, how incorrect and non-progressive that closed mindedness is, and how they will never mature to thier fullest mental and social potential because of it.

Luckily, some of us are free from that mind trap.

Fatima
Originally posted by Alfheim
Yes but we dont have a problem with muslims watching porn, we have a problem with muslims screaming about how the west does not accomdate them enough and then seeking out porn.



ya ,its not screaming but maybe call for the west .everyone affraid from getting used to it ,and that surely effect thier faith .

I think that the west must reduce these picture , its give amessege for other nations that western womens are cheap ..

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Fatima
ya ,its not screaming but maybe call for the west .everyone affraid from getting used to it ,and that surely effect thier faith .

I think that the west must reduce these picture , its give amessege for other nations that western womens are cheap ..


How can you critisize the way the West treat thier women when most of us aim to promote women's rights and elevate them to a status equal to men in most areas?

Islamic Countries , on average, treat women as the man's servant and nothing more.

Fatima
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Fatima, no.
There is nothing wrong with porn, or sex.

You need to think in less ego centrical way.

Seriously, do you believe that there will be an all mighty, all wise creator of the universe out there, who is concerned with everything you do and takes a particular interest in your sex life?

Creater of the universe...creater of everything beautiful, all we can see and cant see and all the rest...wants to know about your sex life....and wether you chose to watch or be in a porn movie...

Seriously...


The quran said that there is shyness in relegion , so its Ok to talk about sex life .

But do you think that watching porn would make the universe beautful ,come on ,its animally impulse ..and if you saw it that will make this impulse increase ,thats it ,you just enjoy watch it and imagin .

would you leave your daughter walk alone and you know that your neighbor is addictd to porn ? confused

Bardock42
Originally posted by Fatima

would you leave your daughter walk alone and you know that your neighbor is addictd to porn ? confused

Yes.

Alliance
Originally posted by Fatima
The quran said that there is shyness in relegion , so its Ok to talk about sex life .

But do you think that watching porn would make the universe beautful ,come on ,its animally impulse ..and if you saw it that will make this impulse increase ,thats it ,you just enjoy watch it and imagin.

The point is niehter Islam nor any other religion solve the "problem."

A good fraction, though not a majority of the Muslim world is extremely agitated now. For any single incident thist group of radicals explodes in rage, protest, and in general mass-hysteria driven by their politicla leaders. These people act just like the US after 9-11.

Its a battle of hypocrites and it is FAR from amusing.

Lord Urizen
Fatima thank you for making no responses to my criticisms of your religion. You have no obligation to do so, but neglecting an answer only proves to me how willfully ignorant a religious person can be.

Alliance
Anyone can be willfully ignorant.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Alliance
Anyone can be willfully ignorant.

Yes, but it happens to be painfully and stereotypically common in religious populations.

Basically, she is backing up her own stereotype, at least in my eyes.

Alliance
ok.

LuckyLover
Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah whatever. Wheres Alliance? laughing

Alfheim
Originally posted by Bardock42
Yes.

You are the exception to the rule. First of all you dont have a problem with having sex with 14 year olds. Yes you didnt say you would but anyone with common sense knows what you were implying, I think you even suggested that you might go lower than 14.

You also dont belive in fighting for your country even in a World War situation. You are not evil incarnate and you wouldn't go out of you're way to hurt anyone but basically you are just a selfish pervert.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Alfheim
You are the exception to the rule. First of all you dont have a problem with having sex with 14 year olds. Yes you didnt say you would but anyone with common sense knows what you were implying, I think you even suggested that you might go lower than 14.

You also dont belive in fighting for your country even in a World War situation. You are not evil incarnate and you wouldn't go out of you're way to hurt anyone but basically you are just a selfish pervert.

Possibly, but people that watch porn are not bad by default. Most people watched porn at one point or another. That does not mean that they are going to rape the daughters of their neighbours. that is a ridiculous though and although it might be dominant in our society it is not less idiotic because of that. Porn is not wrong or evil. And people that watch it aren't either. I even assume that you did watch porn before. It is of no matter. Fact is that porn is not wrong.

And yes, I said 12. And I am not saying people should sleep with 12 year olds. i think that 12 year olds should have the right to decide.

That is a wrong statement. I believe in fighting for your country and although i would be scared shitless (and I admit I am selfish) I would probably protect my country in such a situation. what I do not believe in is being forced to fight in a war. I am again, for the right to choose if you want put yourself in danger.

Your last sentence I do not understand, except that you said I am a selfish pervert. Well, that may be true, but then again, who isn't?

So, just for the record, lets get this straight:

What you think I say:

- I want to have sex with 12 year olds and generally 12 year olds should have as much sex as possible

- You should not fight for your country if it is attacked

What I actually say:

- I think humans at least starting with the age of 12 are perfectly capable to decide for themselves in situations that do not inflict harm on others, therefore a twelve year old does not need to be denied rights because some people think they have to be "protected".

- People should not be forced (by a draft) to go to war and risk their lives. It is unfree and authoritarian to do so. If you do not want to fight your government should not force you to do so. Your government is there to protect you not you to protect your government.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Bardock42
Possibly, but people that watch porn are not bad by default. Most people watched porn at one point or another. That does not mean that they are going to rape the daughters of their neighbours. that is a ridiculous though and although it might be dominant in our society it is not less idiotic because of that. Porn is not wrong or evil. And people that watch it aren't either. I even assume that you did watch porn before. It is of no matter. Fact is that porn is not wrong.

I didn't say that there is anything wrong with porn. What gets me is you dont have a problem about you're daughter being addicted to porn. If my daughter wanted to be a pornstar I would not be happy, but if thats what she really wanted to do then thats her choice. What gets me is it that it doesnt bother you at all.

And yes, I said 12. And I am not saying people should sleep with 12 year olds. i think that 12 year olds should have the right to decide.

Originally posted by Bardock42

That is a wrong statement. I believe in fighting for your country and although i would be scared shitless (and I admit I am selfish) I would probably protect my country in such a situation. what I do not believe in is being forced to fight in a war. I am again, for the right to choose if you want put yourself in danger.

Well see what I mean? Im not saying I would not be scared either but are you telling me if we had a WW situation you would not understand why the Government would lock people up who didn't want to fight? They provide you with services but when you need to defend it you dont want to.

I would not fight in Iraq or Afghanistan because its just the Governement using me. Im not a coward I have risked my life for strangers. I just dont like fighting for something were I feel its not a just cause.

Originally posted by Bardock42

Your last sentence I do not understand, except that you said I am a selfish pervert. Well, that may be true, but then again, who isn't?

See what I mean. What a load of crap!

Originally posted by Bardock42

So, just for the record, lets get this straight:

What you think I say:

- I want to have sex with 12 year olds and generally 12 year olds should have as much sex as possible

- You should not fight for your country if it is attacked

What I actually say:

- I think humans at least starting with the age of 12 are perfectly capable to decide for themselves in situations that do not inflict harm on others, therefore a twelve year old does not need to be denied rights because some people think they have to be "protected".

Im not even going to get into it. I saw the posts, you know what you were implying I despise you.

Originally posted by Bardock42

- People should not be forced (by a draft) to go to war and risk their lives. It is unfree and authoritarian to do so. If you do not want to fight your government should not force you to do so.
Your government is there to protect you not you to protect your government.

Well thats nonsense to an extent. There may be some exceptional circumstances were the Government may need its people to defend it....like World War sitiuations. My only problem is that I see that Governments are corrupt they always have an agenda and to be quite honest if they could turn us all into slaves I think they would. I would rather die for friends and family than the Government.

xmarksthespot
Is there something wrong with being a selfish pervert, Judgy McJudgington?

lil bitchiness
Here is a thing I don't understand.

Person is legaly mature to smoke at 16, and to have sex at 16, it cannot buy alcohol until the age of 18, because such person is deemed irresponsible up until that age.

The question i am initially asking, if they are not responsible enough to handle alcohol at 16, how are they responsible enough to handle sex, STD's condoms, possibility of pregnancy, etc, at 12?

Alfheim
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Is there something wrong with being a selfish pervert, Judgy McJudgington?

Dont ask me a stupid question.

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Here is a thing I don't understand.

Person is legaly mature to smoke at 16, and to have sex at 16, it cannot buy alcohol until the age of 18, because such person is deemed irresponsible up until that age.

The question i am initially asking, if they are not responsible enough to handle alcohol at 16, how are they responsible enough to handle sex, STD's condoms, possibility of pregnancy, etc, at 12? It depends on the person, some individuals are more than responsible enough to make their own informed decisions about drinking, smoking, who they'd vote for, recreational drugs, and sex at an early age; others can be in their 20s and still make complete morons of themselves with regard to any or multiple or all of the above.

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by Alfheim
Dont ask me a stupid question. Everyone is selfish and everyone is perverted by somebody's definition, additionally the "wrongfulness" of this perversion and/or selfishness is again subjective. From where exactly do you derive that your opinion is definitive and absolute?

Bardock42
Originally posted by Alfheim
I didn't say that there is anything wrong with porn. What gets me is you dont have a problem about you're daughter being addicted to porn. If my daughter wanted to be a pornstar I would not be happy, but if thats what she really wanted to do then thats her choice. What gets me is it that it doesnt bother you at all.

Okay, I don't blame you. Reading comprehension is not your strong point. Go back to where i replied "yes" to and read the quote. What does it actually say? Does it say anything about a daughter being addicted to porn? Does it?


Originally posted by Alfheim
Well see what I mean? Im not saying I would not be scared either but are you telling me if we had a WW situation you would not understand why the Government would lock people up who didn't want to fight? They provide you with services but when you need to defend it you dont want to.

In my opinion the government provides you with one basic service which is to protect you from harm. If you are forced to fight and risk your life in a war they do not protect you, they put you in danger. I think they should not do that and I especially think it is te right of every citizen to deny it. If you think that the government is worth fighting for, then by all eans do so, but do not force others that do not share your opinion to risk the most precipus thing they have, their lives.

It is a misconception that Governments or Societies are somehow more importat than individuals.



Originally posted by Alfheim
I would not fight in Iraq or Afghanistan because its just the Governement using me. Im not a coward I have risked my life for strangers. I just dont like fighting for something were I feel its not a just cause.

See, and I think that a person has always the right to see something as an unjust cause. You want to make exceptions when it comes to wars that you see as important. That is not fair.



Originally posted by Alfheim
See what I mean. What a load of crap!

No, the matter of the fact is that most human actions are selfish.
And perverted is a subjective term. Did you ever imagine to have sex with a woman? Well, that is perverted to some. Did you ever masturbate? Also perverted. Again, you assume that your moral standards have to be applied to everyone, because you think that my opinions are perverted it is true. Although others might think that some of the things you think and do are perverted, why does that not apply?



Originally posted by Alfheim
m not even going to get into it. I saw the posts, you know what you were implying I despise you.

Bullshit, i was saying and implying what I stated there. What you read into it for whatever reasons does not matter. You ay despise me, but you are full of shit, since you do not judge the argumetns but what you think I might mean.


Originally posted by Alfheim
Well thats nonsense to an extent. There may be some exceptional circumstances were the Government may need its people to defend it....like World War sitiuations. My only problem is that I see that Governments are corrupt they always have an agenda and to be quite honest if they could turn us all into slaves I think they would. I would rather die for friends and family than the Government.

There may be some exceptional cases where you think the government has the right to. You are one of the most ignorant, egoistical and arrogant person I ever talked to.
People do not have to sacrifice themselves for their government. It is THEIR government. The Governmetn has NO right...only duties. And if it's citizens decided not to fight to preserve it, it has no right to force them to. It is not a person. It is an institution made by men to ensure security for themselves. If you want to die for whatever reason, then do so...don't force your neighbour to do the same though...he might not agree with your ideologie.

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by Bardock42
Okay, I don't blame you. Reading comprehension is not your strong point. Something you should get used to.

Bardock42
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Here is a thing I don't understand.

Person is legaly mature to smoke at 16, and to have sex at 16, it cannot buy alcohol until the age of 18, because such person is deemed irresponsible up until that age.

The question i am initially asking, if they are not responsible enough to handle alcohol at 16, how are they responsible enough to handle sex, STD's condoms, possibility of pregnancy, etc, at 12?

By this you are assuming that the alcohol and tobacco are not wrong. I also would not have a problem to allow 12 year olds to drink and smoke.

Alfheim
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Everyone is selfish and everyone is perverted by somebody's definition,

Yeah, yeah, yeah whatever. Padeophiles dont think their perverts either.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

additionally the "wrongfulness" of this perversion and/or selfishness is again subjective. From where exactly do you derive that your opinion is definitive and absolute?

Somebody whos only concern is to have as much sex as possible and does not want to fight for anything. I dont have a problem with people who are swingers or prostitutes I have a problem with people who are spineless I dont belive in fighting for anything because they are too busy ****ing.

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah, yeah, yeah whatever. Padeophiles dont think their perverts either.



Somebody whos only concern is to have as much sex as possible and does not want to fight for anything. I dont have a problem with people who are swingers or prostitutes I have a problem with people who are spineless I dont belive in fighting for anything because they are too busy ****ing. Hooray for strawmen, rhetoric and completely missing the point.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah, yeah, yeah whatever. Padeophiles dont think their perverts either.



Somebody whos only concern is to have as much sex as possible and does not want to fight for anything. I dont have a problem with people who are swingers or prostitutes I have a problem with people who are spineless I dont belive in fighting for anything because they are too busy ****ing.

You do not understand my argument. Why is that? It is very clear and rational. Did you even read it?

Alfheim
Originally posted by Bardock42
Okay, I don't blame you. Reading comprehension is not your strong point. Go back to where i replied "yes" to and read the quote. What does it actually say? Does it say anything about a daughter being addicted to porn? Does it?


My bad you're correct. It seems Fatima said would you leave your daughter alone with a neighbour who was addicted to porn? If I am right at would age would you leave her alone with this neighbour.


Originally posted by Bardock42

In my opinion the government provides you with one basic service which is to protect you from harm. If you are forced to fight and risk your life in a war they do not protect you, they put you in danger. I think they should not do that and I especially think it is te right of every citizen to deny it. If you think that the government is worth fighting for, then by all eans do so, but do not force others that do not share your opinion to risk the most precipus thing they have, their lives.

It is a misconception that Governments or Societies are somehow more importat than individuals.

Thats not the point! What if they need you to fight?




Originally posted by Bardock42

See, and I think that a person has always the right to see something as an unjust cause. You want to make exceptions when it comes to wars that you see as important. That is not fair.

Oh dont give me that crap! My problem is I dont think you would fight for anything except yourself..which you can hardly do anyway.





Originally posted by Bardock42

No, the matter of the fact is that most human actions are selfish.
And perverted is a subjective term. Did you ever imagine to have sex with a woman? Well, that is perverted to some. Did you ever masturbate? Also perverted. Again, you assume that your moral standards have to be applied to everyone, because you think that my opinions are perverted it is true. Although others might think that some of the things you think and do are perverted, why does that not apply?

Dont be an idiot having sex with a woman is not perverse, anyone one who thinks it is, is stupid. Dont give me that subjective crap!

Originally posted by Bardock42

Bullshit, i was saying and implying what I stated there. What you read into it for whatever reasons does not matter. You ay despise me, but you are full of shit, since you do not judge the argumetns but what you think I might mean.


Well ive read it again. Lets start again.




Originally posted by Bardock42

There may be some exceptional cases where you think the government has the right to. You are one of the most ignorant, egoistical and arrogant person I ever talked to.
People do not have to sacrifice themselves for their government. It is THEIR government. The Governmetn has NO right...only duties. And if it's citizens decided not to fight to preserve it, it has no right to force them to. It is not a person. It is an institution made by men to ensure security for themselves. If you want to die for whatever reason, then do so...don't force your neighbour to do the same though...he might not agree with your ideologie.

You see this is the thing. You are accusing me of not understanding you but you are doing the same as well. What if the Govt need you????? For example Nazis are going to invade you're country and start killing people????


Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Something you should get used to.

I see so you have never made a mistake..because you have.

xmarksthespot
I highly doubt Nazi's intend to invade Germany.

Alfheim
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I highly doubt Nazi's intend to invade Germany.

Oh I seeeee. Trying to move away from the point are we? It doesnt matter if Germans are not intending to invade I have asked him more than once would he fight in that situation.

P.S. Have you ever made any mistakes before xmarksthespot? Whats that..yes? Why didn't you reply...whats that...because you dont want to admit it...ok fair enough.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Alfheim
My bad you're correct. It seems Fatima said would you leave your daughter alone with a neighbour who was addicted to porn? If I am right at would age would you leave her alone with this neighbour.

I would judge that by the same standards as I would judge anyone to take care of my daughter. If he was a good, trustworthy friend then as soon as it is reasonable to get a babysitter, I guess a few months old. If it was just a good neighbour, maybe when she is six...depends how long. it is all not that easy to judge, but his liking for porn would not matter.




Originally posted by Alfheim
Thats not the point! What if they need you to fight?

Need you to fight for what? For them? they don't have that right. There is no cause greater than your own well being that can be forced on you. If you think they need you and their cause is just and worthy of your support, then by all means fight. And so will I. But the government mustn't force it citizens to subscribe to a cause that they do not wish to pursue.





Originally posted by Alfheim
Oh dont give me that crap! My problem is I dont think you would fight for anything except yourself..which you can hardly do anyway.

I would have selfish reasons for every cause I fight for. that is true. But so would anyone else. You think that because I do not want to be forced to fight for something I wouldn't fight at all. That is erroneous. In fact I would even fight for our right to not be forced to figjht for our countries. But it is always for a cause I choose. It's called freedom. Something people seem to forget nowadays.



Originally posted by Alfheim
Dont be an idiot having sex with a woman is not perverse, anyone one who thinks it is, is stupid. Dont give me that subjective crap!

To me it is not perverted. Neither is having sex with a married woman. Neither is having sex with a girl who wants to. Neither is having sex with a man. Or with an animal. Or with more than one woman. Or with your family. Or masturbation. Or watching porn. But that is my reasoning. I am sure you are opposed to some of those, while you find others acceptable. And there are people who are opposed to even more of those some of which you agree with, which makes you a pervert in their eyes. So. Who is to decide what is perverted? You? The people that think imagining sex with women is perverted? Or I.




Originally posted by Alfheim
Well ive read it again. Lets start again.

Okay, how do you suppose we do that?




Originally posted by Alfheim
You see this is the thing. You are accusing me of not understanding you but you are doing the same as well. What if the Govt need you????? For example Nazis are going to invade you're country and start killing people????

I understand you. and I am telling you that the government doesn't have the ability to need you. the government has no rights, it has no will, it has no wish for self preservation. It is the people in power who want to make you think that your government has the right to need you. it doesn't. If you want to protect your government, do so. If you don't, do so. You have the right to choose and you are right either way.

If Nazis are invading my country, I would fight. Not because my government needs me. Not because I am forced. But because I believe that Nazis are wrong. And doing wrong. And because I want to keep my freedom, and I want to protect those I love. Those would be my reasons to fight. But my government does not have the right to force me.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Bardock42
I would judge that by the same standards as I would judge anyone to take care of my daughter. If he was a good, trustworthy friend then as soon as it is reasonable to get a babysitter, I guess a few months old. If it was just a good neighbour, maybe when she is six...depends how long. it is all not that easy to judge, but his liking for porn would not matter.






Need you to fight for what? For them? they don't have that right. There is no cause greater than your own well being that can be forced on you. If you think they need you and their cause is just and worthy of your support, then by all means fight. And so will I. But the government mustn't force it citizens to subscribe to a cause that they do not wish to pursue.







I would have selfish reasons for every cause I fight for. that is true. But so would anyone else. You think that because I do not want to be forced to fight for something I wouldn't fight at all. That is erroneous. In fact I would even fight for our right to not be forced to figjht for our countries. But it is always for a cause I choose. It's called freedom. Something people seem to forget nowadays.





To me it is not perverted. Neither is having sex with a married woman. Neither is having sex with a girl who wants to. Neither is having sex with a man. Or with an animal. Or with more than one woman. Or with your family. Or masturbation. Or watching porn. But that is my reasoning. I am sure you are opposed to some of those, while you find others acceptable. And there are people who are opposed to even more of those some of which you agree with, which makes you a pervert in their eyes. So. Who is to decide what is perverted? You? The people that think imagining sex with women is perverted? Or I.






Okay, how do you suppose we do that?






I understand you. and I am telling you that the government doesn't have the ability to need you. the government has no rights, it has no will, it has no wish for self preservation. It is the people in power who want to make you think that your government has the right to need you. it doesn't. If you want to protect your government, do so. If you don't, do so. You have the right to choose and you are right either way.

If Nazis are invading my country, I would fight. Not because my government needs me. Not because I am forced. But because I believe that Nazis are wrong. And doing wrong. And because I want to keep my freedom, and I want to protect those I love. Those would be my reasons to fight. But my government does not have the right to force me.

Fine we have nothing to argue about then. You seem broad-minded and I would not agree with everything you said, but I take back what I said about you before.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Alfheim
Fine we have nothing to argue about then. You seem broad-minded and I would not agree with everything you said, but I take back what I said about you before.

Okay. Thank you.

Alfheim
You and Alesiter Crowley would have got on. stick out tongue
Anyway I might debate with you on some points later.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Alfheim
You and Alesiter Crowley would have got on. stick out tongue
Anyway I might debate with you on some points later.

In some cases maybe. I personally hardly derive pleasure from torturing cats though.

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by Alfheim
Oh I seeeee. Trying to move away from the point are we? It doesnt matter if Germans are not intending to invade I have asked him more than once would he fight in that situation.

P.S. Have you ever made any mistakes before xmarksthespot? Whats that..yes? Why didn't you reply...whats that...because you dont want to admit it...ok fair enough. Any prior perception of mistake on my part, has been attributed to your poor comprehension skills. To once again exemplify your impeccable reading comprehension skills:

Bardock is German, and correlatively is from Germany.
You asked him whether he would fight if Nazi's invaded his country i.e. Germany.
To which I gibed that it's unlikely Nazi's would invade Germany.
You misunderstand my statement to mean that it's unlikely Nazi Germany is invading other countries, and respond that it doesn't matter that there are no Nazi's invading, completely missing the point.

Gold star worthy.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Bardock42
In some cases maybe. I personally hardly derive pleasure from torturing cats though.

Did he torture cats as well? Well I was refeing to his philsophy on following you're path and he was hedonistic as well, so I thought you would be into him.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Alfheim
Did he torture cats as well? Well I was refeing to his philsophy on following you're path and he was hedonistic as well, so I thought you would be into him.

I jsut heard a few accounts of him. One being that he tortured a cat. His interest into the Occult does not particularly appeal to me. But I am not a hedonistic as such, I more believe that the world is a hedonistic place. People do their deeds out of selfishness.

Alfheim
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Any prior perception of mistake on my part, has been attributed to your poor comprehension skills. To once again exemplify your impeccable reading comprehension skills:

Bardock is German, and correlatively is from Germany.
You asked him whether he would fight if Nazi's invaded his country i.e. Germany.
To which I gibed that it's unlikely Nazi's would invade Germany.
You misunderstand my statement to mean that it's unlikely Nazi Germany is invading other countries, and respond that it doesn't matter that there are no Nazi's invading, completely missing the point.

Gold star worthy.

You know what. What is you're point? I was creating a scenario. It didn't have to be Nazis just anybody attacking his country. I truly dont even understand what you're point is.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I more believe that the world is a hedonistic place. People do their deeds out of selfishness.

Can't disagree with that.

xmarksthespot
The philosophy of seeking the most pleasure one can and the least pain out of life is only selfish to the moral absolutist.

Bardock42
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The philosophy of seeking the most pleasure one can and the least pain out of life is only selfish to the moral absolutist.
Not really. It is selfish by definition. Selfish is only bad to the moral absolutists though.

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by Alfheim
"Ever heard of context strawman?" If you bothered to read my posts properly I was talking hypothetically. I know he is from Germany and I asked him what if he was in a WW type situation would he fight. Obvoulsy you lack comprehension skills as well. See you're doing it again critising me and doing the samething. Your response to me implicates you failed to see my point which was essentially nothing more than a gibe about the flawed question, and really had nothing to do with your point.

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by Bardock42
Not really. It is selfish by definition. Selfish is only bad to the moral absolutists though. In retrospect, I agree.

Alfheim
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Your response to me implicates you failed to see my point which was essentially nothing more than a gibe about the flawed question, and really had nothing to do with your point.

Thats not my fault. It was a stupid response. Im trying to have a serious conversation and I took what you said serioulsy, nothing wrong with that. Next time I will take that into account.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Bardock42
By this you are assuming that the alcohol and tobacco are not wrong. I also would not have a problem to allow 12 year olds to drink and smoke.

I am not assuming, I am stating that alcohol and tobacco are not wrong. They are to be consumed if people decide to do so.

However, same with sex, carelessness leads to problems - if a person is 12 he/she is not mentaly developed enough to make decisions which can influence the rest of their lives.

Bardock42
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I am not assuming, I am stating that alcohol and tobacco are not wrong. They are to be consumed if people decide to do so.

However, same with sex, carelessness leads to problems - if a person is 12 he/she is not mentaly developed enough to make decisions which can influence the rest of their lives.

And I believe they are.

Ushgarak
Originally posted by Bardock42
Not really. It is selfish by definition. Selfish is only bad to the moral absolutists though.

Errr... no... again, this horrible fuzzy confusion about how relative and absolute is that I see a lot around here.

Plenty of people will personally think being selfish is wrong, but not believe in moral absolutes. They would simply accept that other people DIDN'T think it was wrong.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Errr... no... again, this horrible fuzzy confusion about how relative and absolute is that I see a lot around here.

Plenty of people will personally think being selfish is wrong, but not believe in moral absolutes. They would simply accept that other people DIDN'T think it was wrong.

Yes. You are right. I should have elaborated on it.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Bardock42
And I believe they are.

Which is ok.

The laws however do not, and if you have sex with a 12 year old you will go to jail and get on a sex offender list.

Paedophiles also believe that the love between them and a child is a consensual, but the law disagrees.

Bardock42
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Which is ok.

The laws however do not, and if you have sex with a 12 year old you will go to jail.

Paedophiles also believe that the love between them and a child is a consensual, but the law disagrees.

Yes. Which is why I would not claim that it is lawful for a 12 year old to have sex with an "adult".

I am just saying I think it should be.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Bardock42
Yes. Which is why I would not claim that it is lawful for a 12 year old to have sex with an "adult".

I am just saying I think it should be.

Just so you all know......I definitely do not agree with this point.

Bardock42
Better clear your cookies, delete your browser and format your hard drive, just in case someone might affiliate with that opinion.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Bardock42
Better clear your cookies, delete your browser and format your hard drive, just in case someone might affiliate with that opinion.

What? miffed

Bardock42
Originally posted by Alfheim
What? miffed

I was making fun of you.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Bardock42
I was making fun of you.

Ok im afraid I tend to take things seriously and misunderstand people........sometimes.

Fatima
Originally posted by Lord Urizen

Islamic Countries , on average, treat women as the man's servant and nothing more.


oh , what come in your mind if you know that there are more than 10 million single womens in US .

who told that confused ,the women in islam has the same right with man , but mostly the tradition get over the religion .
the women servant her husband not becuase islam told her ,becuase she care about him .

Bardock42
Originally posted by Fatima
oh , what come in your mind if you know that there are more than 10 million single womens in US .

who told that confused ,the women in islam has the same right with man , but mostly the tradition get over the religion .
the women servant her husband not becuase islam told her ,becuase she care about him .

Isn't that a good thing? Mean. 10 million women that can take care oif themself?

Fatima
Originally posted by Alliance
The nation uses religon as a means of oppression.



I dont belive that the nation use it for oppression ,its order from god. The one who want to follow it order its Ok ,nobody can force the person to obey specific order .

If you have a solution to reduce rape ratio ,just tell us .

Fatima
Originally posted by Alliance
The point is niehter Islam nor any other religion solve the "problem."

A good fraction, though not a majority of the Muslim world is extremely agitated now. For any single incident thist group of radicals explodes in rage, protest, and in general mass-hysteria driven by their politicla leaders. These people act just like the US after 9-11.

Its a battle of hypocrites and it is FAR from amusing.


I dont understand why you connecting the politics and this case with extrems .

porn is forbid 1427 years ago ,here i mean muslim must look away from uncoverd women .Thats what i mean , i dont know why you make abig deal ,if muslim themself didnt complain about it .

befor you ask for porn freedom ,think of the results ,and compare it with other nation .
Which one the most save socity ,which one has the high crime .

Bardock42
Originally posted by Fatima
I dont understand why you connecting the politics and this case with extrems .

porn is forbid 1427 years ago ,here i mean muslim must look away from uncoverd women .Thats what i mean , i dont know why you make abig deal ,if muslim themself didnt complain about it .

befor you ask for porn freedom ,think of the results ,and compare it with other nation .
Which one the most save socity ,which one has the high crime .

What nations are we comparing as to safeness? Germany and Saudi Arabia? Iran? Hmm, I can't be sure, but I will assume that Germany takes it.

Fatima
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Fatima thank you for making no responses to my criticisms of your religion. You have no obligation to do so, but neglecting an answer only proves to me how willfully ignorant a religious person can be.


Lord Urizen , sorry but yestrday i was studing for exam , but i cannt handle all these question by my self alone . your question is sometime show me that you have no background about islam .i feel tierd to correct you and then answer your question ,i will try my best smile

I also has difficulty to express in english ,this is the first time i argue about religion with foreignrs big grin

Fatima
Originally posted by Bardock42
What nations are we comparing as to safeness? Germany and Saudi Arabia? Iran? Hmm, I can't be sure, but I will assume that Germany takes it.


The nation that can afford to the people the safeness in his socity first .

i guess we talk about social issue ,not political one wink .

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Fatima
Lord Urizen , sorry but yestrday i was studing for exam , but i cannt handle all these question by my self alone . your question is sometime show me that you have no background about islam .i feel tierd to correct you and then answer your question ,i will try my best smile

I also has difficulty to express in english ,this is the first time i argue about religion with foreignrs big grin

Then I apologize, answer at your own pace.

It is not Islam in itself that I am critisizing. It is the Law of the Islamic Based countries that inspire ignorance, closed mindedness, and injustice that I am attacking.

vintageSW77
Woah this is still going
And to think it all started with a post about Hypocritical Muslim men getting sneaky wack off kicks in a public library which goes against their "faith".
Im going to try and get em on my camera phone and put it up on YOUTUBE.....mind you i may be taking my life in my own hands.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Fatima
oh , what come in your mind if you know that there are more than 10 million single womens in US .

who told that confused ,the women in islam has the same right with man , but mostly the tradition get over the religion .
the women servant her husband not becuase islam told her ,becuase she care about him .

But women are not entitled to as much inheritance as men, and the Qur'an says that women are defficient in intelligance?

Technically however, it is partly to do with culture - but a lot of that is an imprint left by religion.
The west is still batteling out for the women - but it has made a huge progress from where we were before.

Alfheim
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
But women are not entitled to as much inheritance as men, and the Qur'an says that women are defficient in intelligance?

Technically however, it is partly to do with culture - but a lot of that is an imprint left by religion.
The west is still batteling out for the women - but it has made a huge progress from where we were before.

What she wants to talk about Islam and Women? Don't get us started....

Fatima
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Then I apologize, answer at your own pace.

It is not Islam in itself that I am critisizing. It is the Law of the Islamic Based countries that inspire ignorance, closed mindedness, and injustice that I am attacking.


I belive that without these islamic law ,we would be ignorance smile ..

Behind each these laws , there are awisdome ..

Alfheim
Originally posted by Fatima
I belive that without these islamic law ,we would be ignorance smile ..

Behind each these laws , there are awisdome ..

........................................ well the rules are not copmletely useless. I have learn't some useful things from Islam, but for the most part its a complete waste of time.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Fatima
I belive that without these islamic law ,we would be ignorance smile ..

Behind each these laws , there are awisdome ..

Interesting....

I beleive Islam Law PROMOTES Ignorance. I mean executions for women being highly sexual, and men being Gay? Kinda harsh...dont u thnk?

Wisdom? You mean the Wisdom of Hate and Violence? Oh yes...that always comes in handy smile

Fatima
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
But women are not entitled to as much inheritance as men, and the Qur'an says that women are defficient in intelligance?

Technically however, it is partly to do with culture - but a lot of that is an imprint left by religion.
The west is still batteling out for the women - but it has made a huge progress from where we were before.


Right , women inherit less than men , becuase god order men to spend on her , (duaghter ,wife ,mother)even if she was working .and becuase the man is supporter for the family and has more responsibility than her smile

The Second part of your question , Quran never said that about women ,maybe you mean in the certification ,its not about intelligance but quran mention that there must bring 2 women and 1 man to witness ,becuase maybe first women would forget and the second remind her .(you know women , think about her husband ,children ,the house ...so its easly to forgot )

I dont think the women need to involve in battel ,every thing is available to her .

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Fatima
Right , women inherit less than men , becuase god order men to spend on her , (duaghter ,wife ,mother)even if she was working .and becuase the man is supporter for the family and has more responsibility than her smile


It's funny how you happily accept your own oppression. Women are more than capable of raising and taking care of thier families, INCLUDING thier husbands.

Your religion is incorrectly sexist.



Originally posted by Fatima

The Second part of your question , Quran never said that about women ,maybe you mean in the certification ,its not about intelligance but quran mention that there must bring 2 women and 1 man to witness ,becuase maybe first women would forget and the second remind her .(you know women , think about her husband ,children ,the house ...so its easly to forgot )


laughing

Yes, because Muslims know how stupid women are ! AHAHHAHAHHAHAAA !!!!



Originally posted by Fatima
I dont think the women need to involve in battel ,every thing is available to her .


Like getting stoned alive if she is found naked in public.

Fatima
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Interesting....

I beleive Islam Law PROMOTES Ignorance. I mean executions for women being highly sexual, and men being Gay? Kinda harsh...dont u thnk?

Wisdom? You mean the Wisdom of Hate and Violence? Oh yes...that always comes in handy smile


Islam never order to kill any gay ,any women being highly sexual , i even shocked when i heard about execute 2 teenager for having sex in iran .

If you have any surrah in Quran talking about executions , please show me ?

Fatima
Lord Urizen You need sederunt , and tomorrow i have midterm .

after i finish i will respone to all your infinite question .

lil bitchiness
Some women want to think for themselves, and do not want to be taken care of. Maybe they want to make their own money.

Some women do not want children, others do not want husband, and some are quite happy with spending the rest of their lives with another woman.

There are women who are more intelligent than men around them, more educated, and men around them are in no position to take care of them.

It is down to an individual rather than sex.

Fatima
Originally posted by Bardock42
Isn't that a good thing? Mean. 10 million women that can take care oif themself?



Oh ,sorry Bardock42 , i ment single mothers ...

Fatima
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
It's funny how you happily accept your own oppression. Women are more than capable of raising and taking care of thier families, INCLUDING thier husbands.

Ya ,at least she gain moeny , but in the west animal also inherit sometime more than the human . roll eyes (sarcastic)



I would tell if its right wink

:

Do you know who is the stupid ? the person that has no " KARAMA "



Like getting stoned alive if she is found naked in public.

You seem like you watch alot of program about Taliban on TV big grin

Fatima
Originally posted by lil bitchiness


Ok , i agree with you , but the women islam stay with her parents home until she get marreid , every thing is obtainable for her , she can work also and make her own money ,not necessary by inherited somemoney .

.

umm wink , maybe in the west there is lack of cohesion in the family everyone is living alone , but we dont , all family member live togather and sometime even married person stayed in his parents house .



Ya , she can take care of herself also, and control of her life, but i told you befor the man must spend on her just in case she need something , i dont think she will refuse the money big grin



Both sex are equal in islam , god say that better one is the most prayerful smile

~Flamboyant~
Originally posted by Alliance
The nation uses religon as a means of oppression. Exactly. It's not the religion it's the country. Urizen stated that Islam is a religion that opresses women, when in fact, it is not.

Alfheim
Originally posted by ~Flamboyant~
Exactly. It's not the religion it's the country. Urizen stated that Islam is a religion that opresses women, when in fact, it is not.

Yeah it does actually.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by ~Flamboyant~
Exactly. It's not the religion it's the country. Urizen stated that Islam is a religion that opresses women, when in fact, it is not.

I don't know where you got that, but as Uzren confirms and as Alfheim just said, it does actually.

Fatima
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I don't know where you got that, but as Uzren confirms and as Alfheim just said, it does actually.


Ya ,now Uzrin and Alfheim are experts in islamic religion roll eyes (sarcastic)

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I don't know where you got that, but as Uzren confirms and as Alfheim just said, it does actually. As have most other forms of organised religion, one should note.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
As have most other forms of organised religion, one should note.

Hmmm.
This is quite common, and here is the best example of it.

While one is talking about Islam, there is this wave of people, coming on and saying ''yeha its bad, but the others are bad too''.

I don't quite understand this. Noone gets in a thread about Christianity and says ''yeah Christianity is bad, but so are most other religions''

While it is more than evident that many forms of religion opress women, I do not see how that relates to discussion of Islam, apart from conclusion that somehow, shaming one, will reclaim the other.

Telling me about how other religions treat women is pointless in the form of information, because I already know that. Religion is my area of interest.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Fatima
Ya ,now Uzrin and Alfheim are experts in islamic religion roll eyes (sarcastic)

I was a muslim for 6 years I have spoken to scholars and I used to go to study circles. Next. miffed

Just thinking about it makes me want to commit suicide.

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Hmmm.
This is quite common, and here is the best example of it.

While one is talking about Islam, there is this wave of people, coming on and saying ''yeha its bad, but the others are bad too''.

I don't quite understand this. Noone gets in a thread about Christianity and says ''yeah Christianity is bad, but so are most other religions''

While it is more than evident that many forms of religion opress women, I do not see how that relates to discussion of Islam, apart from conclusion that somehow, shaming one, will reclaim the other.

Telling me about how other religions treat women is pointless in the form of information, because I already know that. Religion is my area of interest. It wasn't my intention to mitigate Islam's oppression. Frankly all modern religion is of equal (and relatively low) standing to me (other than as a sociological and historical curiosity).

It was simply a comment stating that organised religion in general is oppressive. Period.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
It wasn't my intention to mitigate Islam's oppression. Frankly all modern religion is of equal (and relatively low) standing to me (other than as a sociological and historical curiosity).

It was simply a comment stating that organised religion in general is oppressive. Period.

Oh I do appologize.

It does happen quite frequently, however, what I have described above. Too requently that sometimes it overshadows those who do not think so.

Furthermore, speaking historically, there are mountain of evidence that the opression of woman was not a ''natural'' thing which occured. It came after the brake down of the tribes, and creation of feudalist type government, including a religion.

Fatima
Umm , Do you think that this 6 years would make you have enough knowelge about islam , they were people spend more 10 ,15 years to study and search of islam and they never said that its enough .

I dont know why you did become amuslim before ?and now you talk about it like this way .....maybe you didnt used to leave alcohol and the girls ? or what do you think roll eyes (sarcastic)


anyway ,the islam still the most popular religion in the world cool

Alliance
Originally posted by Fatima
Ya ,now Uzrin and Alfheim are experts in islamic religion roll eyes (sarcastic)

Perhaps, but you (general) need to be willing to at least listen to opinions other than your own.

Originally posted by Fatima
anyway ,the islam still the most popular religion in the world cool

No, there are more Christians in the world. Unfortunately, popularity doesn't have an impact on its validity or general goodness (for lack of a better word)

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by Fatima
anyway ,the islam still the most popular religion in the world cool Ad populum.

800,000 Schutzstaffel can't be wrong, eh?

Alliance
Oh yes they can.

xmarksthespot
I know I was just intentionally strawmanning.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Fatima
Umm , Do you think that this 6 years would make you have enough knowelge about islam , they were people spend more 10 ,15 years to study and search of islam and they never said that its enough .


Im sorry but some people just dont want to see the truth. Yes you do need to have in-depth knowledge of Islam but at the sametime you dont need to study for 100 years to know that Islam is oppresive.

Originally posted by Fatima

I dont know why you did become amuslim before ?and now you talk about it like this way .....maybe you didnt used to leave alcohol and the girls ? or what do you think roll eyes (sarcastic)
.

Er no thats exactly what I did. I was a strict muslim because I wanted to do the right thing.

Originally posted by Fatima

anyway ,the islam still the most popular religion in the world cool

So what? Its always the few that make a change.

Fatima
Originally posted by Alliance


There is adifferint between giving opnion and persuade other people of wrong idea instead of looking at the facts .



Ya ,i know that smile ,but i mean the most seprates religion , i read it from western site .
i belive that people influance by religion ,and they surelly know what is good for them .

Alfheim
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I know I was just intentionally strawmanning.

Looks like another person misunderstood you as well.

Fatima
Originally posted by Alfheim


ohh, why do you think that people dont want to see the truth?... roll eyes (sarcastic) ...unless they dont want to belive it ..



umm ,you mean more than 1 billion muslims are follows the worng way , now ?



i just wanted to tell you that if islam was really oppresive and ignorant ,no one would got in it .. smile

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Fatima
Ya ,now Uzrin and Alfheim are experts in islamic religion roll eyes (sarcastic)

I am not trying to insult your religion as a whole. I am targetting Muslim Extremism, the same way I target Christian Extremism, or Extremism of any kind....even Liberal Extremism pisses me off.

Perhaps I am ignorant of the Islamic Customs in your particular country. Please enlighten me...what country are you from exactly ?

Any time I critisize Islam, I only refer to countries like Iraq, Iran, Palestine, and some parts of Saudi Arabia where the Death Penalty is given to people for the most absurd things.

In Iraq, two gay teenage boys were hung for having sex. Guess what thier ages were: 14 and 16 ! Two young boys killed for having sex ..... and the reason was based on Muslim Law.... backed up by natural bias, ofcourse, but Iraq claims that Islam has no tolerance for "sexual deviancy" or feminine power.


I do not mean to insult the entire Arab nations for the actions of one country. For that I apologize. For me to insult the entirety of Islamic Nations is like someone from your nation insulting the entire United States and all of South America because most of us happen to be Christian.

I also applaud you on your presentation. You are very calm and collected, and you always answer as professional as you can. You never sink so low as to insult your debate opponent like I sometimes do, and like everyone else on this thread does.

Good Day to you

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I don't know where you got that, but as Uzren confirms and as Alfheim just said, it does actually.


Islam oppresses women as much as Christianity does in many parts of the world. However, it was Islam Extremism that I was actually referring to, that occur in places like Iraq, Iran, and the like.

Fatima claims that where she lives, Men and Women are seen as equal....although she seems content in her position, and I'm glad for her, it just so happens that many women in Arab nations make no complaints what-so-ever about thier obvious oppression.

In some Arab towns, if a woman is raped, her family will disown her. On top of that, in order to regain thier "honor", someone in the family has to kill the raped woman, and erase all traces of her memory.

So basically, a woman will be blamed for something horrible that happened to her, even though it was NOT her fault, and beyond her control. On top of that, the man who kills her will be seen as a HERO, and the man who raped her will go free with only a few days in jail.

Tell me that is NOT TWISTED !

Alfheim
Originally posted by Fatima
ohh, why do you think that people dont want to see the truth?... roll eyes (sarcastic) ...unless they dont want to belive it ..

Yeah basically.


Originally posted by Fatima

umm ,you mean more than 1 billion muslims are follows the worng way , now ?

The point is that you siad that maybe I didn't enjoy Islam because maybe I was doing unislamic things. Im just telling you that was not the case.


Originally posted by Fatima

i just wanted to tell you that if islam was really oppresive and ignorant ,no one would got in it .. smile

Well your average human being is not impressive. Anyway some people like to suffer.

Alliance
Originally posted by Fatima
There is adifferint between giving opnion and persuade other people of wrong idea instead of looking at the facts.

Yes, however, self-analysis is imperitive in the modern world. People need to consistantly re-examine everything. Most of the people here have used facts, as have you. All the facts do not point to one answer.



Originally posted by Fatima
Ya ,i know that smile ,but i mean the most seprates religion , i read it from western site .
i belive that people influance by religion ,and they surelly know what is good for them .
The "west" is not infallible. Infact, there are likely just as many stupid people here than anwhere else in the world. Most websites have zero credibility.

People let many terrible people with power pursuade them throught history. In every culture you can find examples. People who refuse to analyze their position in an unbaised context will never know what is good for them.

One nice thing about a global forum is that it gives you an outside perspective.

Fatima
Originally posted by Alliance


Ya , i agree but when i told them to present the proof they just ignore me ,,and talking without proof make no statement ..i guess wink



Its actually famous university made astatistics . also ,i dont depend on one source i like to has accredited info about source before i said so .



If they were ignorance maybe they would belive , I think that people would know what is good from if they stop analyze others people position and leave their own without solutions ...everyone has brain to analyze and better one who has the proofs to persuade the others of his idea ..



You are Right smile

Fatima
Originally posted by Alfheim
.

and if you dont want to belive that islam is truth ?why bother.. wink


:


The case that you hate islam without any persuasive reason ..




That really doubtful ,isnt smile

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by Alfheim
Looks like another person misunderstood you as well. You give Alliance and I far too little credit, if:
-you think he didn't realise I don't really think the Schutzstaffel were right because they had numbers
or
-if you think I meant what I said about the Schutzstaffel.

The only one misunderstanding things is once again you. Context and tone still not your friends I see.

Alfheim
*shrug* I guess so. At least I can admit when im wrong.

Originally posted by Fatima

The case that you hate islam without any persuasive reason ..



I just said I was a muslim for 6 years, I knew scholars and went to study circles...... confused Don't give me that nonsense.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Islam oppresses women as much as Christianity does in many parts of the world. However, it was Islam Extremism that I was actually referring to, that occur in places like Iraq, Iran, and the like.

Fatima claims that where she lives, Men and Women are seen as equal....although she seems content in her position, and I'm glad for her, it just so happens that many women in Arab nations make no complaints what-so-ever about thier obvious oppression.

In some Arab towns, if a woman is raped, her family will disown her. On top of that, in order to regain thier "honor", someone in the family has to kill the raped woman, and erase all traces of her memory.

So basically, a woman will be blamed for something horrible that happened to her, even though it was NOT her fault, and beyond her control. On top of that, the man who kills her will be seen as a HERO, and the man who raped her will go free with only a few days in jail.

Tell me that is NOT TWISTED !

I know all of the above. Im not sure what your point is.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I know all of the above. Im not sure what your point is.

It was directed more at Fatima

Again Fatima, thank you for answering everyone else's responses except my own.

lil bitchiness
Oh I see what you did. thumb up

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Oh I see what you did. thumb up

naughty

Fatima
ooooooh , your post was compeletly wrongno ..espeacially about killing raped women ..

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Fatima
ooooooh , your post was compeletly wrongno ..espeacially about killing raped women ..


Really ? Can you prove me wrong ? You probably have no idea because you have NO ACCESS to this information, considering your internet blocks all websites and sources that reveal the evil acts that spawn from Islamic Extremism.


You ARE aware of what happened on September 11th, in the United States, right? I hope so smile

I would love to send you websites that would show you what actually occurs, and show that I am indeed correct in my above statement. Lil
Bitchiness can vouch for me, but since i know you don't trust her statements either, I guess there is no point.

And since any website I send you will be BLOCKED, I guess you will remain in knowing ignorance on the subject. Sorry.

Fatima
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Oh I see what you did. thumb up


Thanks lil bitchiness for the time i spend answering your questions ..

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Fatima
Thanks lil bitchiness for the time i spend answering your questions ..

Again thank you for not proving me wrong. Thank you for showing me how little you actually know about the history and basis of your own religion.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Again thank you for not proving me wrong. Thank you for showing me how little you actually know about the history and basis of your own religion.

Can you see why sometimes I can't be bothered to debate with muslims? Sometimes I feel like making a real effort but I know its going to be a complete waste of time. I would rather make sarcastic remarks.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Alfheim
Can you see why sometimes I can't be bothered to debate with muslims? Sometimes I feel like making a real effort but I know its going to be a complete waste of time. I would rather make sarcastic remarks.

Why do you think I am always sarcastic in the religion forums ?

Christians and Muslims alike will often ignore Fact and Logic. It's terribly sad.

Alliance
Originally posted by Alfheim
Can you see why sometimes I can't be bothered to debate with muslims? Sometimes I feel like making a real effort but I know its going to be a complete waste of time. I would rather make sarcastic remarks.

Unfortunately, sarcastic remarks really don't contribute to discussion. If you're not willing to make the effort, its obviously not that important to you. Hence its a waste of time. However, you're not required to debate. If you don't like the way things are going, just drop the argument. If your position is correct, its likely that someone else will pick up the argument.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Alliance
Unfortunately, sarcastic remarks really don't contribute to discussion. If you're not willing to make the effort, its obviously not that important to you. Hence its a waste of time. However, you're not required to debate. If you don't like the way things are going, just drop the argument. If your position is correct, its likely that someone else will pick up the argument.

What can I say im human, I tried the reasonable approach all I got was nonsense so im going to to let off some steam and make some sarcy comments. You yourself have in my opinion been quite rude as well.


Anyway you're right but im too p'ed off to care.

Alliance
Originally posted by Alfheim
Anyway you're right but im too p'ed off to care.

laughing out loud ahhh...apathy stick out tongue

Alfheim
Originally posted by Alliance
laughing out loud ahhh...apathy stick out tongue

I'll get over it Mr Perfect.

Bardock42
Who called me?

Alliance
Originally posted by Alfheim
I'll get over it Mr Perfect.

Please...

Alfheim
Originally posted by Alliance
Please...

What?

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