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This is Vader in RotS where he fights Obi Wan. Takes place on Mustafar. I say Mace.

Done before. It's a close one this is, but I think Windu pulls it off.

Vader's principle advantage against Mace would be his prowess in the dark side, his skills in utilizing the environment, and his superior Force powers. Though this would be difficult, I could see Mace fighting his way past it - and then it would likely come down to a contest of blades.

Vader is stronger and more overpowering, but Mace has greater mobility and possesses the effective and lethal skills of Vaapad and Shatterpoint.

I'd say he'd win, after a difficult duel.

Mace dominates this fight. How do I know? Because Obi-wan took Anakin in the same situation, yet we know for a fact that Obi-wan would never be strong enough to defeat Sidious. Mace did. Also, Mace is as good, if not better than Dooku. Dooku OWNED Obi-wan in ROTS and it's logical to assume that Mace could do the same.

RotS Vader. I don't know why in the hell I thought it was RotJ Vader.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Mace dominates this fight. How do I know? Because Obi-wan took Anakin in the same situation, yet we know for a fact that Obi-wan would never be strong enough to defeat Sidious. Mace did. Also, Mace is as good, if not better than Dooku. Dooku OWNED Obi-wan in ROTS and it's logical to assume that Mace could do the same.

This situation is different.

Anakin lost because Obi-Wan knew Anakin's form, how Anakin fought, Anakin's weaknesses, Anakin's strengths, and Anakin's state of mind. Mace doesn't have that intimate luxary.

I agree, though. Mace would win. Due to his mastery of the Force and Shatterpoint.

However, Anakin is easily on par and could contend with Mace in a lightsaber fight.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Mace dominates this fight. How do I know? Because Obi-wan took Anakin in the same situation, yet we know for a fact that Obi-wan would never be strong enough to defeat Sidious. Mace did. Also, Mace is as good, if not better than Dooku. Dooku OWNED Obi-wan in ROTS and it's logical to assume that Mace could do the same.

?? Palpatine and Mace had a straight up lightsaber battle. Nothing more and nothing less. In lightsaber combat only Obi-Wan could go toe to toe with the Emperor but in an all out fight no.

Obi-Wan took on Anakin which doesn't help your point. Obi-Wan knew Anakin's move, abilities, basically everything about him. Knowing your opponent inside and out really comes in handy.


Besides the point in an all out battle Mace would defeat Anakin. Anakin has a chance to win (really good chance) but Mace seems to keep focused more then Anakin did at the time.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Mace dominates this fight. How do I know? Because Obi-wan took Anakin in the same situation, yet we know for a fact that Obi-wan would never be strong enough to defeat Sidious. Mace did. Also, Mace is as good, if not better than Dooku. Dooku OWNED Obi-wan in ROTS and it's logical to assume that Mace could do the same.

So you're using the old A>B>C argument huh? OB1 cant beat Sidious, Mace can And OB1 beat Anakin, hence Mace could "dominate" Anakin, sound about right? Well by the same logic, Dooku bested Mace, Anakin wtfpwned Dooku, so Anakin pwns Mace...by your logic of course.

Dooku bested Mace, Anakin wtfpwned Dooku, so Anakin pwns Mace

1. Dooku bested Mace at one point. Read Shatterpoint. Mace has gotten FAR more powerful than when Dooku and Mace fought.

2. Anakin didn't fight Dooku alone. Obi-wan, who has shown himself to be Anakin's superior, was there and helped.

3. Dooku wasn't fighting as hard as he could. Dooku was tricked by Sidious into letting Anakin win.

?? Palpatine and Mace had a straight up lightsaber battle. Nothing more and nothing less. In lightsaber combat only Obi-Wan could go toe to toe with the Emperor but in an all out fight no.

Were you half asleep when you typed this? Only Obi-wan could go toe to toe with the Emperor? Where did you get that idea? Mace BEAT Sidious in lightsaber combat. Yoda's better than Sidious too. And Dooku get give Sidious a hard time in lightsaber combat too. Obi-wan? Nope, especially not when Kit, who was very close to Obi-wan in lightsaber skills didn't last FIVE SECONDS against Sidious.

Anakin lost because Obi-Wan knew Anakin's form, how Anakin fought, Anakin's weaknesses, Anakin's strengths, and Anakin's state of mind. Mace doesn't have that intimate luxary.

You're forgetting the fact that Anakin knew Obi-wan just as well as Obi-wan knew Anakin I see. All of the quotes about them knowing eachother say that THEY knew eachother better than brothers, not Obi-wan knew Anakin better than a brother and Anakin didn't really know Obi-wan any better than he knew Mace Windu. BOTH Anakin and Obi-wan had that huge advantage in that fight. Anakin won't have it when fighting Mace and will get dominated.

If Anakin fights like he did against Dooku, I see him actually beating Mace, seeing as how he punked Dooku pretty fast. However, Mace is level-headed, and, all around great. I think he would have a slightly better chance of winning this than Anakin does. Close fight, but, if forced to, I would put my money on Mace.

@Glentract:


Incorrect.

Advent and myself have been on the subject of Count Dooku vs. Anakin for months. We have provided Lucas's commentary, the official script, and the novelization (which are all G-Canon sources). Then, we have supporting evidence provided from tNEC, the RotS visual guide, the Ultimate Visual Guide, Sidious's own in-movie remarks, and plain old logical deduction.

Count Dooku lost because he could not stop the sheer wrath of Anakin, unrestrained, and calling on the Dark Side. He did not go easy on Anakin, Glentract. Use common sense. Why the hell would Sidious engineer the fight - the sole purpose of which is to test Anakin's strength and fighting prowess, to see if he could replace Dooku - if he had Dooku restrained? How freakin' accurate could it be?

I am aware that the taboo of Dooku > Sidious and Dooku > Anakin is still around, and thrived back in the old days. I am happy to announce that Advent and myself have broken them both, and they no longer apply.

Dooku, however, still likely wins a Force fight. But he lost to Anakin, legitimately, and is no match for an unrestrained Anakin. Not at all.

As to some of your other posts:



Since when has Obi-Wan proven himself to be the better fighter? He isn't. The Force is far stronger in Anakin. Anakin is stronger, faster, and is simply "the better fighter".



Mace beat Sidious due to Shatterpoint. As a swordsman, Sidious is his equal. Sidious, I might add, who didn't touch a lightsaber for thirteen years. Pretty good for him, I'd say... In an all out fight, though, Mace would likely lose.

And, Yoda is better than Palpatine? When? The only part of their fight that would imply that Yoda is better than Palpatine in lightsaber combat is a non-canon part of the script, where Yoda disarms Sidious, begins to WTFpwn him, and then let's Sidious go to continue the fight.

I wonder why this part was left out?

Besides, if anything, there are multiple sources stating Yoda was overwhelmed and forced to retreat. Wouldn't be the case if he were better or if he won.



Perhaps you forget the part that Anakin doesn't think rationally when in a state of rage. It is more like a "smash, kill" incoherent brutal rampage. Obi-Wan's already been established, on multiple occasions, to be the "smarter" fighter. He thinks with a clear head, and his wisdom and fighting experience far exceeds Anakin's own.

Anakin > Obi-Wan.

And, Anakin is on par with Mace, Sidious, Dooku, and Yoda in swordsmanship.

Lets not forget anakin in the dark side doesnt think clearly as compared to light side anakin which is why the "inferior" obi wan beat him.

And lets not forget vaapad is very effective against dark side users, not so good against light side users from what i have read about it

I actually see Anakin winning this battle. Anakin is the best swordsman of the PT era. In really people said Mace would win by using the Force but when Mace was fighting the Emperor did he use the Force then? No.

Mace is a skilled swordsman but Anakin is just better. People say that Mace, Dooku, and Yoda are on the same level (at least when it comes to lightsaber skills) but Anakin pwned Dooku. Many say that it was because Anakin was fighting with Obi-Wan but Dooku had to separate them in order to stand a chance. Even the script says that Dooku and Obi-Wan were becoming tired but Anakin was still growing stronger in strength.

Also the entire Anakin vs. Obi-Wan fight agrument seems retarded. People are underrating Obi-Wan who was a master at Form III and Form IV and knew all of Anakin's moves.

Anakin, in a state of extreme rage, defeated Count Dooku. And, yes, he did so easier than what was previously thought. But, Count Dooku was able to comfortably handle Obi-Wan and Anakin at the same time. The reason being? He's a mile and a half above Obi-Wan, and Anakin wasn't using his hatred.

I don't agree. In the movie, you first see Anakin and Obi-Wan using different lightsaber forms, which they don't masterfully know. You see Obi-Wan going on the offensive with Shii-Cho. Now when they resorted back to their orginal forms, they couldn't properly utilize them. Anakin's Djem So requires fierce long strikes and Kenobi's Soresu requires space and a vast arena. Anakin couldn't go full Djem So berserk on Dooku unless he had space otherwise he could have accidently cut Kenobi in half.

I doubt Dooku is a mile and half above Obi-Wan. With Anakin beside him, Obi-Wan couldn't have fully been aware of Dooku and thus probably got Choked a lot easier than it should have been. I put Dooku a bit better than Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
I don't agree. In the movie, you first see Anakin and Obi-Wan using different lightsaber forms, which they don't masterfully know. You see Obi-Wan going on the offensive with Shii-Cho. Now when they resorted back to their orginal forms, they couldn't properly utilize them. Anakin's Djem So requires fierce long strikes and Kenobi's Soresu requires space and a vast arena. Anakin couldn't go full Djem So berserk on Dooku unless he had space otherwise he could have accidently cut Kenobi in half.

I doubt Dooku is a mile and half above Obi-Wan. With Anakin beside him, Obi-Wan couldn't have fully been aware of Dooku and thus probably got Choked a lot easier than it should have been. I put Dooku a bit better than Obi-Wan.

The novelization goes into detail about how they attempted to dupe Count Dooku.

I'm sorry, Prodigal. But that you'd put Obi-Wan anywhere on par with Count Dooku is nothing short of mindboggling. Notice that he was treating the fight as comically as they were. They weren't putting their all into it, and neither was he. But, by God, when he finally got pissed and took the fight seriously, what did he do?

Kicked Anakin against a wall and WTFpwned Obi-Wan with the Force.

In lightsaber skills? Count Dooku is above Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan's defense may cause him some considerable trouble, but he'd eventually win.

In Force powers? Count Dooku is a mile above Obi-Wan. RotS showed that very nicely.

In an all out fight? Do the math. If it were just Obi-Wan vs. Dooku, it would have gone a lot differently, and much more abruptly.

Honestly, I think the issue is with Lucas' mishapen and odd intentions. I honestly see Dooku as being superior to the duo, when he's using the force offensively. I accept that Anakin defeated Dooku in lightsabre combat, but honestly; what was to stop Dooku just reversing the targets and wasting Anakin with the force and kicking Kenobi backwards? In that case, Dooku would have effectively owned them both.

Circumstance effectively gave Anakin a natural advantage and combined with Anakin's raw power and skill gave Dooku something that he couldn't handle.

I see where you are going with this Escape. Yes, the novelization shows the fight as being much longer, however it's the movie that purely shows what happens.

Now about Obi-Wan and Dooku. In lightsaber skills, Dooku prevails after a tough fight. I agree with you on that.

Now in the Force. I HIGHLY doubt Dooku is a mile above Kenobi in the Force. Kenobi has shown tremendous Force strength especially when he slammed Grievous into the wall. He was also able to contend with Anakin in a Pushing Contest, and made it a draw.

Again, because of ROTS, we see Obi-Wan cutting down the SuperDroids and then running to Dooku to help out Anakin. Dooku sees that both are to his side so he kicks Anakin and then disposes Kenobi. If it was an actual fight between two of them, Kenobi would be wary of Dooku's Force powers. It was due to how the battle turned out that Kenobi got supposedly pwned. If there was a fight between the two of them, I doubt Kenobi would be wasted by the Force.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Now in the Force. I HIGHLY doubt Dooku is a mile above Kenobi in the Force. Kenobi has shown tremendous Force strength especially when he slammed Grievous into the wall.

That doesnt put him on par with Dooku in terms of the force. In ROTS we can physically see the expression of Kenobi's face when he performed the move. It is obvious it used a fair bit of effort. However in the CW we see Dooku throw GG around with the force as if it were nothing. Putting, imo, Dooku a fair notch or three above Kenobi in this area.

Sorry, but I couldnt resist adding my two cents.

When did Dooku throw Grievous around??? And yes, he's using all his strength to throw Grievous into a wall like fourty feet from the ground. And that's considering the fact he just battled Grievous head on. Notice how Kenobi easily brought down a metal box weighing a ton on Grievous's Magnaguards with ease. I woud say Kenobi is not at all far off.

He did this during a training session in the CW. Dooku had also just been fighting Greivous (with ease) and was still able to completely pwn him with the force. It should also be noted that this is CW Greivous - a much stronger version than Kenobi faced. I dont know why this is being argued - Kenobi isnt anywhere near the level of Dooku, with a blade or with the force.

Source, I don't remember it being in the cartoon....?

And wrong, Kenobi is on the level of Dooku with the blade. Kenobi was able to kill Grievous with relative ease, all it took him was just some dodging. Kenobi has the speed and defense to take on people like Anakin (who pwned Dooku) and Yoda.

As for the Force, Kenobi is able to block Dooku's Lightning in AOTC! Yes, Dooku has Choke, but both of there Pushes seem about equal. Kenobi flung Grievous away like a fly and brought down a ton of metal on the MagnaGuards while Dooku threw Kenobi away. However, Dooku is better, but I won't he's so much than Obi-Wan, just simply better.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
That doesnt put him on par with Dooku in terms of the force. In ROTS we can physically see the expression of Kenobi's face when he performed the move. It is obvious it used a fair bit of effort. However in the CW we see Dooku throw GG around with the force as if it were nothing. Putting, imo, Dooku a fair notch or three above Kenobi in this area.

Sorry, but I couldnt resist adding my two cents.

Well it was my impression that when an actor is told to "act" in a movie, that occasionally a facial expression comes out when being caught up in the moment, whereas a CARTOON, has no facial expression. That'd be a menial detail that the artist probably wouldn't be concerned with when trying to meet a deadline on a cartoon that isn't known for it's "high quality" art work. And using facial expressions to determine the level of power in the force??? please...thats down right dumb. Look at Yoda's face when doing some things he does...does his grimace indicate that he's not as powerful as Dooku's cartoon character? I think not.

True. But you must look at it from an in-universe perspective. Not 'one is a cartoon and one ia a movie'. We see Kenobi use a large amount of effort pushing Greivous whereas Dooku simply pushes him to the side as if it is nothing. Also CW Greivous is seen as far stronger, being able to dodge force pushes and the like.

Although it really doesnt matter. Kenobi isnt in the same league as Dooku in terms of the force.

no he's not, but you cant look at everything as "in universe" cause then people pick and choose whats more canon and all of a sudden EU projects, such as CW, aren't even canon. You also have to look at how hard and far GG got pushed. He went back pretty hard, and it was enough to make him try to retreat. I'm sure he wasn't fighting Dooku with the same ferocity that he was fighting OB1 with.

Dooku's better, but i wouldn't put him FAR above him. Just by a fair amount though.

This is off topic.

@Prodigal:

I am awestruck by some of your claims. That you would suggest that Obi-Wan is on par with Count Dooku is completely baseless and unbelievable. By RotS, Anakin is his superior in swordsmanship.

Logical Question: So how is it that he is able to hold off his superior (Anakin) and someone on par with him (Obi-Wan) simultaneously?

Logical Answer: Because, only when Anakin is unrestrained is he above and beyond Count Dooku, and Obi-Wan is no match for Count Dooku in an all out fight, because he is a lesser duelist and a lesser Force user.

Obi-Wan's sole claim to fame is his defense. I will admit, his defense is likely unrivaled as a swordsman. But this does not mean that he can take anyone. We know for a fact (thanks to Yoda) that Obi-Wan is no match for Palpatine (which logically means he's no match for Yoda, either).

In an all out fight, he could not stand against Mace Windu or Dooku either. The only reason he defeated Anakin was because of his rational thinking, his intimate knowledge of Anakin's lightsaber form, Anakin's tactics, Anakin's strengths and weaknesses, and Anakin's state of mind.

The moment that Count Dooku realized he was being duped, he unleashed his trump card: his Force powers. He disabled Obi-Wan very easily, with the Force. Deny it all you want, but he is no where close to Count Dooku in terms of mastery and refinement of the Force. Considering how Dooku has seven decades of Force training, from the two most powerful Force users (bar Luke), I'd say that Obi-Wan pales in comparison.

I hope you bury this issue completely. Your assertions are seriously without any base to them. In an all out fight without Anakin to assist him, Obi-Wan would die against Count Dooku, without too much difficulty.

@Traya:



I can only assume that Dooku chose to put Obi-Wan out of the fight because he wanted to beat him in the traditional sense - in a lightsaber duel. That, or maybe Anakin wouldn't have succumbed as easily to such an attack - given that Anakin's raw command and strength in the Force far exceeds Dooku's (as well as Yoda's and Sidious's as well) own.

However, I don't believe that Anakin would have won (or would have won as quickly) had Dooku not attacked Obi-Wan. As Palpatine has said before, Obi-Wan is Anakin's "restraint". Killing, attacking, or otherwise harming Obi-Wan is a way to really piss Anakin off.

And, when that happened, Anakin manhandled Count Dooku pretty easily, in their saber contest.

I'm seriously not even going to bother debating with you anymore. This is ridiculous.

What's you problem? Scared (I doubt it, but that's pretty measely of you to back out)? I don't see what's so ridiculous about what I said. What you said seems ridiculous as you're so ready to argue for Dooku and then you back out on the claim of "this is ridiculous" which is stupid and rude.

No, what's pretty stupid is suggesting that Obi-Wan is on par with Dooku, despite Dooku putting Obi-Wan out of the fight in a single move while simultaneously handling Anakin.

You think you've composed a good argument? I'm not impressed. Go watch RotS again, and look specifically for Dooku kicking Anakin in the chest, and then manhandling Obi-Wan.

Damn, Prodigal.

Obviously you don't know the meaning of how-to-read as I covered all of that.

And I don't give a damn if you're not impressed by my argument. That gives you no reason to say this is ridiculous.

Man Escape, I didn't think you were quite so rude. Obviously you ignoring my posts tells me something of your typical demeanor.

I was under the assumption that Dooku took out Obiwan to get him out of his way so he could test Anakin, as instructed by Sidious.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Man Escape, I didn't think you were quite so rude. Obviously you ignoring my posts tells me something of your typical demeanor.

I could reply with something along the lines of:

"Man, Prodigal. I didn't think you were quite so stupid. Obviously the sheer incompetence laced in your posts tells me something of your typical intelligence."

But that would be rude. I think you should know by now that I don't typically refuse to debate unless the argument I am debating against is simply too ridiculous.

I saw RotS. Obi-Wan is weaker than Dooku, and is much weaker in the Force.

Originally posted by Escape81
I could reply with something along the lines of:

"Man, Prodigal. I didn't think you were quite so stupid. Obviously the sheer incompetence laced in your posts tells me something of your typical intelligence."

But that would be rude. I think you should know by now that I don't typically refuse to debate unless the argument I am debating against is simply too ridiculous.

I saw RotS. Obi-Wan is weaker than Dooku, and is much weaker in the Force.

lol, is it just me or is Escape totally mean now. He's like the new Advent.

Just wonderful my friend. I don't insult my opponent only if I feel I am disgraced.

I saw ROTS too. I KNOW Obi-Wan < Dooku, however I analyzed that fight and I know how Kenobi fights. I know Dooku cannot curbstomp him.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Just wonderful my friend. I don't insult my opponent only if I feel I am disgraced.

I saw ROTS too. I KNOW Obi-Wan < Dooku, however I analyzed that fight and I saw Kenobi fight. I know Dooku cannot curbstomp him.

If that is the case, then your analysis is inaccurate.

I'm going to make this perfectly clear to you. Anakin and Obi-Wan attacked Count Dooku together because they both had to. They duped him into a false sense of security. Ask yourself why. When he discovered their intent, he got serious. And, what did he do? He kicked Anakin in the chest and manhandled Obi-Wan with a single Force maneuver.

Let me spell it out for you: In a single Force attack, Dooku disabled Obi-Wan and put him completely out of the fight. No, that doesn't strike me as Obi-Wan being on par with Dooku.

In the Force, yes, Dooku can easily curbstomp Obi-Wan. Only in a lightsaber fight would he provide any semblance of a threat. And in an all out fight, unless he's got someone on his side who is on par or greater than Dooku, like Anakin, Yoda, Palpatine, or Mace, he will die and he will die easily.

You don't have access to a character's innermost thoughts, Prodigal. You don't know that they weren't expecting Count Dooku to use the Force. There are some things that people can take into consideration, but just not be prepared for. You can't sit here and tell me "oh, they thought he was going to do THIS instead of THIS", because you do not know.

It is highly possible that he just overpowered them, as his mastery of the Force is greater than Anakin's or Obi-Wan's at this point in the juncture.



The two did fight, and Obi-Wan's intellect didn't save him from Count Dooku's vastly superior Force powers. And, Obi-Wan is not capable of performing Force lightning or choke.

Sorry. In a Force fight, Obi-Wan is owned. Curbstomped.

In a lightsaber fight? Obi-Wan's defense will provide some trouble, but Dooku will still win in the end.

In an all out fight? Think of RotS but faster when there's no pesky Anakin to deal with.

uh, excluding means can't.

Maybe so, Escape. However, we have take in all considerations. We know Obi-Wan is powerful and even Windu considered his Soresu as splendid. Yoda was already impressed by him in AOTC, and should be definately proud of him in ROTS. I highly doubt that Dooku can just go there and curbstomb Kenobi.

It's very likely possible that Anakin and Obi-Wan believed that Dooku was playing around with them and that they knew his arrogance would make not likely go serious on them. But they were taken aback when he suddenly does the masterful Kick-Choke-Throw Manuever. It just doesn't quite make sense for me that he's just so much better than Obi-Wan is able to destroy him in ROTS without an explanation.



Yes, but in AOTC, Obi-Wan was able to counter Dooku's Lightning. And Dooku uses Lightning before a duel to weaken the opponent (AOTC). This won't work at all against ROTS Kenobi.

But Obi-Wan is capable of bring down a ton of metal without any effort and if able to Throw an eight-foot droid about fifty feet into the air and a hundred feet away.

Dooku is equal to Kenobi (if not slightly better) and his other advantage is his Choke. This is a deadly weapon. However, I doubt Obi-Wan gets owned in the Force Fight. Just comfortably defeated.

Originally posted by Escape81
In an all out fight? Think of RotS but faster when there's no pesky Anakin to deal with.

That's less than 13 seconds!

Seriously, Dooku > Kenobi in the Force by a decent margin, perhaps a good league or two. Kenobi has no defense against someone who's adeptness in the Force is among the top five of the PT era (and it's a big gap of pure power to the likes of Obi-Wan) - this was shown in the RotS duel. And Prodigal, if you think Obi-Wan "forgot" or "wasn't prepared", that is pure speculated bullshit. Either Kenobi is an incompetent duelist, or your thoughts are severly flawed.

I'd wager the latter given the fact he is an au fait duelist. If you recall during their duel in RotS, Kenobi was Force pushed prior to being completely taken out by Count Dooku. So, there's no reason for him to completely oblivious to the fact when it happened moments before.

I'd also like to take an excerpt from the Revenge of the Sith novelization:

"He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall, but Dooku didn't have time to enjoy it. "

-- Revenge of the Sith novel, Chapter 3.

It's pretty obvious that Dooku would tool Kenobi with relative ease using the Force considering what is above; it's also apparent from a single line that Dooku is, at the least, a mile ahead of Obi-Wan in the Force. Plus, when you consider all of what the Count has done with the Force, and the descriptions - it's clear that he's Obi-Wan's superior.

"z0mg, he f0rced push3d grievous!!!///1ONEELEVEN1?!!!"

My response: BFD.

Grievous is a non-Force using being, who - without a connection to the Force - is plainly unable to defend against Force attacks. Basically, all Obi-Wan did was Force push some hunk of metal. Not so impressive when you consider that fact, because someone like Ki-Adi-Mundi or Mara Jade could easily replicate that feat (pushing something analogous to a droid ). I don't see either of them being on par with Count Dooku, let alone lasting more than five seconds in a pure Force battle.

In an all-out fight? Let's see: RotS revisted. That took all of, as I said before, 13 seconds.

Should have expected Advent would come to Escape's die. Frick, how I have to take on Advent AND Escape.

I don't have time here, so I'll give a summary argument. Yes Dooku is better. But he won't and he cannot defeat Kenobi in thirteen seconds. I would wager about a minute. Kenobi grants him at least that much.

I have already argued about the thirteen second thing somewhat.

Advent's the closest thing I have to a "debating partner". We took on a lot of old KMC taboos together. Aside from the fact that I am madly in love with her , she and I share a lot of views.

Besides. It's plain that she's crazy about me.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
I don't have time here, so I'll give a summary argument. Yes Dooku is better. But he won't and he cannot defeat Kenobi in thirteen seconds. I would wager about a minute. Kenobi grants him at least that much.

Except Count Dooku can, and already has defeated Obi-Wan in thirteen seconds. Why would it last any longer now? The only thing Kenobi can hope for is a straight lightsaber battle, perhaps then he'd last roughly a minute; albeit, if Tyranus did decide to use the Force (and he usually does; or rather, it's not uncommon for him to do such), it wouldn't last very long - definitely not a minute.



And it had no bearing. Your point? What was your explanation, as I didn't quite see much relevance in anything you said to the thirteen seconds thing. The only thing was that he was "surprised".

Hint: He wasn't. He was owned by a Force push moments before, that's why Obi-Wan had to sprint up the stairs - as I've already covered.

Unless you weren't referring to that, then I don't see it. It could be the fact I've only briefly skimmed over the arguments, but meh.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
But he won't and he cannot defeat Kenobi in thirteen seconds. I would wager about a minute. Kenobi grants him at least that much.

I dont understand how you can come to that conclusion. In the movies (highest form of canon) Obi-Wan gets taken out in thirteen seconds. Now this is with Anakin helping him and Dooku going easy for the first part of the fight. Although I havent read you previous arguments I think your argument is pointless.

Though she does tend to ignore me... but, it's okay. I still love her.

Windu's refinement of Vaapad and Shatterpoint by ROTS (which I assume the threadmaker is referring to) is enough to put Sidious on his ass. Vader's strength in the force is noteable, but for the most part on par with Windu's.

Windu wins by sheer saber skills.

Originally posted by Escape81
Though she does tend to ignore me... but, it's okay. I still love her.

Who? Me?

I don't ignore you, I just play hard to get, lol. You, Rex, and I are a three e-some.

Originally posted by Advent
Who? Me?

I don't ignore you, I just play hard to get, lol. You, Rex, and I are a three e-some.

If you two have a kid, will he be some debating monster who, despite having radically wrong views such as Ki-Adi Mundi beating LOTF Luke, can still debate everyone into having to admit he/she's right?

Rofl.

That'd be interesting. A child with both of our defining traits would mean a girl who is a dominatrix with a weird obsession with '80s rock bands, and fish.

I leave it to you to conclude what traits belong to which parent.

No offense, but I'm definitely gonna pray the dominatrix trait is hers because...you're not of the female persuasion.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
No offense, but I'm definitely gonna pray the dominatrix trait is hers because...you're not of the female persuasion.

This is true.

Ask Rex. It's all whips and leather and chains and pictures of Yoda with Advent.

And old windows 98 computers, according to her.

Originally posted by Escape81
RotS Vader. I don't know why in the hell I thought it was RotJ Vader.



This situation is different.

Anakin lost because Obi-Wan knew Anakin's form, how Anakin fought, Anakin's weaknesses, Anakin's strengths, and Anakin's state of mind. Mace doesn't have that intimate luxary.

I agree, though. Mace would win. Due to his mastery of the Force and Shatterpoint.

However, Anakin is easily on par and could contend with Mace in a lightsaber fight.



Not a bad presentation at all...

When I saw this, I knew it would be a good oppurtunity to display somthing I wrote on another thread about a simular duel...



Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Wrong, technically Anakin is better than Obi-Wan. However, Obi-Wan knows all of Anakin's moves and is more relaxed and calm than Anakin. In addition, Anakin's anger will make him make a mistake. That's how Obi-Wan survived Mustafar. It'll just be like that.



Your WRONG.

Anakin is better than Obi-Wan, and about "Obi-Wan knowing all of Anakin's moves..."

Anakin knows all of Obi-Wan's moves .

Double edged sword, remember?

De de de...

That "Knowing all his moves thing" is crap.

Obi-Wan won only because of Anakin's mind being in a crippled state.
If Anakin had been clear and focused like how he had been while fighting Dooku, then Obi-Wan would have been doing the backstroke in lava.

Speaking of which, If Anakin is fighting Sidious and Mace is still alive, that means he hasn't "killed" Padme yet.
That also means he hasn't killed younglings yet either.

So mentally, he is still capable of much focus.

So, when he duels Obi-Wan in this scenario, given the fact he'll be calm and only think that Obi-Wan and Mace are trying to assassinate senator Palpatine, and the fact that Obi-Wan won't be able to find any high ground, not that it will help him anyway...

Obi-Wan will get trashed by Anakin.


BTW, This is sort of the reason Anakin beat Mace Windu in the RotS Video game.
In normal terms, Mace has about the power and skill of Dooku, perhaps slightly higher.
But, using Vapaad, he can absorb the Force energy that gradually permeates off of a Dark sider and either use it to fuel him through a fight, or re-direct it back into the opponant.
Of course Shatterpoint can also be used...
My point is, regularly, (Vader)Anakin would get defeated in a short duel by Mace, who would feed of his Dark Force energy and win out against him.
In the game however, Anakin fights Mace after witnessing "an assassination attempt".
Since he hasn't gone to the Dark side yet, he isen't using anger or the Dark side. He fights determinedly against Mace, in his mind trying to save the life of an innocent man.

Because of this, Mace cannot use Vapaad against/on him.
There is no Dark side energy resonating from Anakin to collect and utilise. Also, Shatterpoint cannot be used since Anakin is not utilising the Dark Side.
So Mace, who for all good purposes was basicly another "Dooku" in that duel and was left with his regular abilities.

And, like Dooku, after putting up a good but short fight, was eventually worn down, and out-techniqued.

Just wanted to point that out, since it confused people when the game came out...

So yeah, Basicly, Mace wins against Darth vader, actually, almost easily.

But against Anakin Skywalker he'd lose, almost easily.

Ironic.

Mace wins. He has more experience than Vader, he is smarter than Vader, far less likely to make a mistake. His Force skilsl are likely superior to Vader, seeing as Vader seemed to only be on par with Kenobi when they tried to Force Push each other and Mace is on an equal level with Yoda on the Council, and for saber skills it's about even but Mace's Vaapad will give Mace another advantage over Anakin as Vaapad's good against Dark Siders, as Mace proved by defeating Sidious in a saber duel.

dont ya think?







its like rain......

id say vader would equal mace in skill and power by this point and the only thing really lacking is his mindset. obi wan had a much better knowlege of vader during this fight than mace would, but both would knw how to push vader into making a mistake.

im just wondering how this fight would go. mace isnt the type to give ground and thats what obi wan had to do constantly to survive long enough to capitalise on vaders emotion. in a straight head to head i dont know if mace could win. he has the experience and cool head to win this how obi wan did, but he doesnt have obi wans defencive capabilities. mace is all offence, anakin is all offence, and turning his own defence into offence. if you listen to nick gillard anakin is at yodas level during his final fight against obi wan, his only problem is hes still in between two worlds. im almost tempted to call it 50/50.

obi wans style let him hold on enough and watch for a mistake, mace seems like hed be pushing and pushing for the win and that might not be too effective. if its an eu fight and mace has his shatterpoint ability hed probably win, in the movie i dont know. 50/50?

Yes, but Kenobi and Skywalker are well aware of Dooku's arrogance. They know how he toys around with Jedi and enjoy the humiliation. They didn't think he would go all out on them, but instead decapitate him before he got his act together, which he did



1.) Dooku pushed Kenobi merely to test out Anakin for a second. When Anakin started ferociously beating him down, Dooku realized that he HAS to fight at HIS BEST. When Dooku pushed Kenobi, it was more like a regular Push. Kenobi believed that Dooku was trying to take out Anakin, so he rushes back. He doesn't realize that Dooku isn't going to pull out an impressive fighting tactic.

Dooku performs a splendid Kick-Choke-Throw manuever which gets rid of Anakin temporarily and eliminates Kenobi. Kenobi, nor Anakin, would have expected something as perfect as that because they didn't believe Dooku would try to take them seriously till the last second, when it's too late.

And consider this fact. Both Anakin and Obi-Wan were on Dooku's left and right. Obi-Wan and Anakin are both equal in the Force (this is shown in the Mustafar Duel, neither Kenobi or Anakin could Push the other back). Dooku could have EASILY kicked Kenobi and then down the Choke Throw on Skywalker. Definately, he could, and Anakin would have been defenseless. By your reasoning then, Dooku can own Anakin in 13 SECONDS!!!!! LOL!!!!! The only reason why Dooku finished off Kenobi is because he wanted to challenge Anakin, otherwise Anakin would have been screwed and Kenobi would have gotten killed.

2.) So what if Kenobi got Pushed by Dooku? Are you saying he cannot retaliate. Kenobi has the skill to fight against Dooku definately for at least a minute.




Kenobi brought down a ton of metal with not even a sweat. Dooku took several second to bring down some wall debris against Yoda which weighs the same as the metal Kenobi brought down. And Grievous is quick enough to dodge bullets shot by Clones. He is super fast. And yet he gets pwned by Obi-Wan.


My basic point is I feel Kenobi is being underrated against Dooku. OMG, Dooku finished him in thirteen seconds, that's what exactly what will happen. Hell no, we have consider all the situations that happened in the duel between Dooku vs. Anakin & Obi-Wan. That's all.

I feel Kenobi WILL LOSE TO DOOKU but NOT IN THIRTEEN SECONDS and maybe for AT LEAST forty seonds to max of maybe two minutes or three minutes.

Sidious's fight with Yoda didn't even last that long. Those two are equals. Anakin's fight with Obi-Wan didn't last that long, either.

Sorry, Prodigal. Obi-Wan gets owned.

And, besides, he just ripped the mooring off of that metal platform in RotS. He didn't pick the damn thing up and drop it.

What are you smoking? The Anakin vs. Obi-Wan duel was literally the longest duel in the SW saga. It was brutal. And Yoda vs. Sidious wasn't even fully shown!!! Apparently they go from fighting each other on a single rising pod to Sidious throwing them at Yoda from above. No, Obi-Wan doesn't get owned, just comfortably defeated.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Yes, but Kenobi and Skywalker are well aware of Dooku's arrogance. They know how he toys around with Jedi and enjoy the humiliation. They didn't think he would go all out on them, but instead decapitate him before he got his act together, which he did

As Escape said, you do not have access to a character's train of thought. While it's true Dooku is arrogant, and does often toy around and taunt his opponents - this doesn't mean that Anakin and Obi-Wan just thought Count Dooku would dilly-dally around the majority of the duel, if he's in a position of endangerment - he takes it to the limit. Anakin witnessed this in AotC.

Dooku had thought "no sense taking chances" when he came to the realization that not only had Anakin's Shien tactics been a ploy, but Obi-Wan's Ataru as well and surmised that they could possibly take him. And he showed this by Force pushing Kenobi for the first time. As well, this is irrelevant to the fact that Kenobi was tooled with comical ease after their second encounter with blades (after Kenobi ran up the stairs), because by then Dooku wasn't messing around, he had already used a Force attack moments prior, and so on.

Quit making excuses for the fact that Obi-Wan was owned with "the slightest whipcrack, negligent as a flick of the wrist". Do you understand what that single sentence alone implies regarding Dooku vs. Obi-Wan in the Force? It seems to indicate Dooku is a strong league or two above Obi-Wan in the Force, and that Obi-Wan will be curbstomped in the Force.

For a more direct response, see below.



Actually, he Force pushed Kenobi so he'd GTFO of the fight. He Force pushed Obi-Wan because he felt that those "clowns" might be able to take him.



Relevance to the fact Dooku tooled Kenobi regardless?



According to the novel, you're a bit wrong:

"The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-
Skywalker was getting stronger.
Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade."

Even Dooku surmises it's no time for games. Why do you think Anakin and Obi-Wan would? It's obvious that you can tell when someone is not fooling around anymore, at least in terms of Star Wars duels (see: Obi-Wan vs. Maul, Dooku vs. AotC Anakin). Dooku was expending quite an amount of energy just to block Skywalker's attacks.

Didn't expect him to try his best? My ass.

As stated above, before the "splendid kick-choke-toss maneuver", he realized that he would have to get serious and not take any chances:

"Realization burst through Dooku's consciousness like the blossoming fireballs of dying ships outside: this pair of Jedi fools had somehow managed to become entirely dangerous.
These clowns might-just possibly-actually be able to beat him.
No sense taking chances; even his Master would agree with that."

This would imply that Count Dooku wasn't fooling around, and did in fact take them seriously as they were a danger to his life, and had the chance of killing him together.



Just because Anakin couldn't successfully repel a Force push from Obi-Wan doesn't mean they are on equal Force footing. While Obi-Wan isn't miles behind Anakin (as apparent), it's doubtful he's equal to. Anakin was on the defensive anyways in terms of initially blocking.



Except no. And I would leave the response at that, but you piss me off with your moronic, and twisted arguments.

For starters, who ever said Anakin > Dooku in the Force anyways? And plus, it's a different scenario which means different actions. Anakin will not move similar to Obi-Wan given his form, and because of such you cannot just assume he'd tool Anakin that way.



And...? Your point holds no water because I'd submit Dooku > Anakin in the Force. Albeit, in an all out fight, Anakin would be overwhelming Dooku with a lightsaber, as shown in RotS, to the point where Dooku will have a hard enough time blocking his attacks, let alone countering with a Force attack. Throughout the majority of the duel, Dooku cannot stop Anakin's onslaught. Not before Kenobi was taken out, and not after until - for a short time frame - Dooku taunts Anakin, but shortly thereafter Anakin gets back to pummeling Dooku.

Hell, Anakin was holding back, and was still beating the senseless shit out of Dooku.



In a lightsaber battle? Yes.

In a Force fight? No.

In an all out fight? Hell no.

Actually, yes. I am saying that Obi-Wan does not have sufficient power or proficiency in the Force to stop Force attacks from Dooku, save for Force lightning, and that's only if Kenobi is prepared in the sense he was in AotC (because Sora Bulq was tooled during a fight with Count Dooku via Force lightning).



Wow. Cool:

Originally posted by Escape81
And, besides, he just ripped the mooring off of that metal platform in RotS. He didn't pick the damn thing up and drop it.

Not so impressive when you consider what Escape said, and is correct. But do tell, relevance again? Context, please. Dooku has shown us much more impressive displays of powers against Force using beings with nothing more than a finger. What does Obi-Wan bringing a metal platform down have to do with a fight?



And? You forget some things: Count Dooku had just fought against Obi-Wan and Anakin using Force attacks on both of them. Force lightning, and a Force push on Anakin (which was described as a "stone wall", Force lightning on Kenobi which was blocked, Force pushing Anakin again. And of course, the fact he'd just battled through them and the novelization described Anakin as giving Dooku a run for his money.

But, this speaks nothing for Kenobi against Dooku. Count Dooku has shown us much more impressive things as documented in my previous threads. And these things far succeed what Kenobi has ever done.



And yet he was Force pushed through a wall by Shaak-Ti or I believe, it might've even been one of the no name Jedi accompanied with her in the Clone Wars. Good job, Obi-Wan Kenobi! You managed to Force push General Grievous, who has no Force pre-cog or defense, in the middle of a straight lightsaber duel, while he was standing still or at least, moving nowhere but forward (weren't they in a saberlock for Buddha's sake?).

1337 k3n0b1.

And my point is that Dooku can take Kenobi out with the Force with comical ease. I'd give 40 seconds at maximum given the fact it's not going to be exactly like the duel in RotS, however Kenobi doesn't go over a minute given what we've seen of Dooku against various opponents (Sora, Grievous, Asajj, Anakin, etc.) , and again - the comical ease of which Kenobi was taken out.

Why can't I? As a matter of fact, every Jedi and Sith are in a state of endangerment whenever they fact. There's always the one percent chance against even simple battle droids that they could get shot in the back while not looking. Dooku always toys around with his opponents he feels are weaker. He doesn't do this against Yoda, but against AOTC Obi-Wan, Asajj, Tholme, he toys around. His arrrogance blinds him, and this prevents him from taking the ROTS duel 100% seriously till the Kick-Choke-Throw.



OMG, he did a simple Force Push that knocked Kenobi ten feet away into the Super Battle Droids! Dooku, who is able to do an impressive sequential Kick-Choke-Throw and able to keep up and duel with the likes of Yoda, did at his desperate moment push Obi-Wan away. If you realize with Dooku, he doesn't take people seriously right away. He pushed Kenobi so to see if he can massacre own "clown" (Anakin) by himself. By your given quote:

"The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-
Skywalker was getting stronger.
Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade."

This shows how Dooku is now 100% desperate as hell. That's why when he sees Obi-Wan running at him, he literally does one of his finest (not to mention in all of SW) and most desperate defensive counters: the Kick-Choke-Throw against Kenobi.

As you can see, the Kick-Choke-Throw is a far more impressive move than a Force Push, which probably signifies the difference in desperation levels. Dooku could have easily done a Kick-Choke-Throw or a similar move (heck this Dooku, one of the best swordsmen) instead. He tried to test Anakin out for a brief while but then got owned.

Now, let's continue.



What kind of excuse is this? So because of Anakin's form, he'll stand sideways if Dooku lifted him up for the Choke instead??? Wrong, Dooku could have easily done the same treatment against Anakin. See their positions. Anakin and Obi-Wan both have their lightsabers down on Dooku's while facing him. Dooku could kick Kenobi in the wall next to him. Then he then could have Choked and Threw Skywalker away.

What do you think Anakin can do to block? Do you think while Dooku chokes Anakin, Skywalker somehow kicks Tyrannus's head or what! No, the same scenario would have happened against Anakin.

And yes, Obi-Wan and Anakin are equal in the Force, so this proves that Dooku could have easily done the same treatment to Skywalker. Since you'll want to know how there equal, I'll show how.

When Anakin and Obi-Wan dueled on Mustafar, Anakin kept battering away on Kenobi. You saw how Dooku "lost decades" while fighting against Skywalker, so Obi-Wan must have been exhausted as hell when they reached the Control Room. Here, while entering the saberlock, Obi-Wan and Anakin both Push, and were unable to Push one another back.
In addition, it doesn't matter if it's offensive or defensive. Kenobi is tired as hell, and so the Push strength would be balanced out. Even then, you see Kenobi turning sideways and then pushing his hand out. Anakin has the reflexes to counter this with more strength, but he's unable.

And no Advent, you can't say Dooku couldn't do the same treatment to Anakin. Kenobi can't be defeated in thirteen seconds because of that Kick-Choke-Throw, otherwise I can say Dooku could own Anakin then by that reasoning.





Total Exaggeration of Dooku's power. This makes no sense because if Dooku with little energy can own Kenobi, then he should be able to beat Mace in the Force! The ROTS novelization has shown tendencies of exaggerating people's powers. It calls Anakin by something around the lines of "the strongest in the order". However, this is an exaggeration because Yoda > Anakin and since Anakin cannot take on the Emperor but only Yoda and Mace can.


My basic point is that I don't like it how people say Dooku >> Kenobi, when he's NOT! Yes, Dooku could definately win, but he HARDLY pwns. I give Kenobi AT LEAST FORTY SECONDS, because otherwise his power shown doesn't make any sense. Kenobi's Soresu would be hard for Dooku to break against and so he would resort to the Force. Here, after about twenty seconds to forty seconds, he kills Kenobi.

I give Kenobi's life span against Dooku somewhere between:


40 seconds --- 2 Minutes 10 Seconds

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Why can't I?

Because you don't have access to their thoughts? Because their thoughts are never displayed? Because the blind assumption you made is less likely to be true than what I laid out in front of you?

Take your pick.



Except you are assuming incorrectly that Dooku wasn't serious until after he took Obi-Wan out. As apparent in the novelization, Dooku took it seriously once he realized Anakin and Obi-Wan's initial forms (Ataru, Shien) were a ploy. As soon as Obi-Wan switched to Soresu, he decides "no sense taking chances". He reformats his approach to better fit the situation, and seemingly takes the duel 100% seriously.

As well, you fruit, if you would notice - the fact that Dooku had been "spending lavishly his reserve of the Force..." (reference made already, see my previous post) was before he decided to toss Kenobi around like a ragdoll.

Count Dooku had been taking the fight seriously as soon as they switched. As much is deduced, and apparent.



WRONG!

If you had taken the time to carefully review my post, instead of post your ridiculous assertion, and twisted quotes - you'd realize that he pushed Obi-Wan for one reason and one reason alone. The reason you may ask?

"Dooku found himself having a sudden, unexpected, overpowering, and entirely distressing bad feeling about this...His farce had suddenly, inexplicably, spun from humorous to deadly serious and was tumbling rapidly toward terrifying. Realization burst through Dooku's consciousness like the blossoming fireballs of dying ships outside: this pair of Jedi fools had somehow managed to become entirely dangerous.

These clowns might - just possibly - actually be able to beat him. "

-- Revenge of the Sith novel, Chapter 3.

He pushed Obi-Wan because he felt that the Jedi duo would be able to best him. He did not Force push him to simply see if he could take Anakin. He needed to get rid of Obi-Wan because together they were causing too much of a problem for him. He was in danger, he had to.



Except what you fail to comprehend is that he was desperate before this. He was on the verge of possibly being beaten. So, what are you trying to say? As has been, and obviously will be again for reinforcement - he didn't have the chance nor time to take out Obi-Wan completely.

A Force push was the right tactic to use. You also fail to realize that his goal was to take out Obi-Wan anyways, if he really did have a chance - he would've taken it then. Through logical deduction, it's obvious that if Count Dooku had the time to, he would've done it.



Hardly. By this logic, anyone who doesn't use their most powerful attack or their "more impressive" display of power, they aren't as desperate. Did it ever occur to you the opening wasn't there? Perhaps the Count couldn't take him out at that moment, perhaps he had to wait for an overhand swing (as that's the move that Obi-Wan used prior).

Or the more likely, and definitely viable reason: he didn't have the time to take out Obi-Wan completely. Go to Blockbuster's, rent Revenge of the Sith, and review the fight. As soon as Count Dooku pushes Obi-Wan, Anakin is right there. How's he going to try a maneuver similar to the one used later on Kenobi?

Short Answer: He's not.

He forced pushed him to break up the fight in which he wouldn't be able to contain had it gone on. After Obi-Wan got up, he decided to take him out for good as he had time (Anakin was laying on the ground for whatever reason). The reason he didn't take Obi-Wan out for good during the RotS with such a "splendid" attack was because he simply didn't have time.



Actually, he tried to get Obi-Wan the **** out of the fight. The omniscient narrator's dialogue, or rather the free indirect discourse apparently used shows that Tyranus didn't feel he could compete for much longer with them in a sense that they could overwhelm him.

He was trying to test Anakin, as that was his goa, but your reason for why he only Force pushed Kenobi is inaccurate, and is severely flawed given the facts I've already laid down.



What is their to continue? More of your twisted logic? Sure, why not - I suppose I could free a few minutes to deal with this. And please, don't use that line. As, , it seems to imply you've actually accomplished something.

Now, let's continue...



No.

What you've been failing to realize is that if you switch Obi-Wan and Anakin's position (for instance, say Anakin runs up the stairs). It would be a completely different scenario because Anakin's form, and lightsaber skills are dare I say, far superior to Tyranus' own given what was displayed, and the novel's description of the duel. Obi-Wan doesn't have the physical superiority in the sense that Anakin does, he's not a better duelist than Anakin, and so on.

Because of that, you cannot say that Dooku would be even able to pull off a Force maneuver, let alone make sure it lands since he'd be overwhelmed by Anakin's onslaught. The only time Count Dooku would be able to pull that off is when he kicked Anakin. And I wouldn't deny that he possibly couldn't do that, given that I'd say Dooku > Anakin Force-wise. So, the point you're trying to make fails regardless.



Except I really don't give a shit what you say. When Obi-Wan demonstrates the ability to collapse a building by pure rage, let me know. As well, this is irrelevant. Count Dooku probably could do the same to Anakin, he's likely superior, however, this is unlikely to happen because - as I've been trying to relay to you - Anakin would overwhelm Count Dooku too much as shown.



Obi-Wan is also far younger, and doesn't use the Force to enhance his body to the level Dooku does. Obi-Wan also is able to meet Djem So head on, whereas Dooku could not due to his Makashi. Energy levels would probably be expended more because every block would be harder to block. On top of all that, Obi-Wan knows Anakin like the back of his hand. He was more controlled, as well, and levelheaded at the time, contrary to Anakin. He knows Anakin's moves, so it's not as if he'll be grasping at air just to block it (also given the fact his form is made to block).

And you do realize that it didn't take hours to reach the control room. All of...say, one minute - if that?



Actually, I can. And I believe I already did.



No, you can't. Anakin is capable of completely overwhelming Count Dooku to the point where he's unable to even block, how do you figure he's going to pull some Force maneuver? Out of his ass? Much like the assumptions you're making? If so, Count Dooku is in trouble.

No, it's really not.

Feat Wars:

Originally posted by Advent
Dooku is called by narration to be exactly "one of the most respected and powerful Jedi in the Order's twenty-five-thousand-year history", and is stated to be "an even greater Sith" (by narration, and Yoda's dialogue indicates this as well).

Dooku choked out Komari Vosa. There's the fact ROTS Obi-Wan isn't even a match for Dooku's Force power, he was owned at literally the flick of the wrist:

"He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall."

Also note that he did this while fending off Anakin. He also did tool Asajj Ventress, who we know is pretty powerful. Not the strongest, but still. And he also - with one finger - brought Ventress down to her knees:

"Her face went pale. Dooku lifted that one finger, and this time he tapped it in the air, as if pushing a needle into a pincushion. Ventress crumpled to her knees. Her voice came out clotted with pain. Dooku made another little patting motion, and Ventress slammed to the tile floor. "

So, we have a flick of the wrist, a tap of the finger, patting motion. "Strong in the Force this one is", eh? From the AOTC novelization, when he puts Anakin out of commission for a time:

"Dooku's hand shot out toward the charging Jedi, sending forth a Force push as solid as any stone wall, and a burst of blue Force lightning. With a wave of his hand, Dooku sent Anakin flying across the room, to crash into a distant wall, where he slumped down, dazed.

He was able to completely revitalize himself using just the Force (ROTS novel), suggesting he doesn't need some dumbass Jedi captives to do it, lol. We know he's obviously a proficient Force lightning user by his displays in AOTC, and other various things. He was able to own Sora Bulq, and knock him out with Force lightning:

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/4374/sorapwnedys9.th.jpg

Even Yoda comments on his skills:

"Yoda stirred again with his stick. "Then best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force?" He nodded. "Best of all, Dooku would be!"

Calling him the strongest student, and one that has learned the most. We also know Dooku is more powerful than Grievous, who has slain numerous Jedi Masters with ease (Council member as well), Asajj Ventress, and so on.

You were saying?

Count Dooku has a vast amount of power over the majority of the PT. Obi-Wan included.




And where do you come up with even more ridiculous logic? Since when is Obi-Wan anywhere near the level of Mace Windu in the Force?

The only thing that doesn't make sense is the shit you have been spewing. Where does this conclusion come from? Mace > Obi-Wan. And of course, there's still up for debate whether or not Dooku > Mace in the Force anyways; albeit, either way it wouldn't be by a large margin.



It calls him the strongest Jedi of his generation. Which he is. It doesn't include Yoda, and more than likely doesn't include Mace.

As well, that line isn't referenced during a fight. It's just describing Anakin. Nearly every novel has, at the least, one line of hyperbole. Just because it says one line doesn't mean you can claim everything is an exaggeration.

Otherwise, the argument you tried to make for Kenobi being "tired as hell" fails given the fact I can - like you - claim it was an aggrandizement of the fight. Double standards, eh?



Too bad for you that you don't realize he's called the "strongest Jedi of his generation...".

Last time I checked, Sith Lords aren't Jedi. As well, last time I checked, Yoda being 800 plus years old isn't very much Anakin's generation. He dies twenty some years lately for Buddha's sake!

Refer to my above points, also.



In the Force, yes he is. As a lightsaber duelist, no he's not leagues above Obi-Wan. He's better, though.



Not that that makes any sense. He wouldn't be stuck on Obi-Wan's defense for more than - like you said - twenty seconds to forty seconds (maximum). He'll take all of one or two seconds to kick the ever living shit out of Obi-Wan with the Force.

In the novel, once Dooku realizes Obi-Wan switched to Soresu, and his Ataru stance had been a ploy, he takes immediate action. He doesn't use his most devasting attack because Anakin is right behind him, the time isn't available. What makes you think it's going to take light years for Count Dooku to realize Obi-Wan's defenses are near impenetrable?



Yes, well no one exactly cares much of what you think. 40 seconds maximum, Obi-Wan gets obliterated with the Force with apparent ease.

Now, if you have nothing new to add to the debate. Quit talking shit, and we'll agree to disagree because I don't have time to continue to break my proverbially balls to debate something as miniscule as this. You can, of course, continue, but it's basically going to be going in circles. As you obviously feel your right for whatever absurd reason.

Plus, this debate is making me seem like an aggressive debater, moreso than I am, but I have no qualms either way (either continue, or not. IDG2S).

mace windu would mop the floor with vaders ass, weather presuit or OT both vaders will go down hard(sorry vader this is a fact)

Originally posted by Kadesh
mace windu would mop the floor with vaders ass, weather presuit or OT both vaders will go down hard(sorry vader this is a fact)

Hardly in either case. Presuit could prolly win after a long hard fought fight, and Vader has immense knowledge of the force, so he would be no pushover.

Obi-Wan wouldnt last a minute as you keep saying. Prodigal, you say that in ROTS they fought for exactly 36 seconds. I trust this figure is accurate (I cant be bothered going to check). Now this is with Anakin there helping Kenobi, and stopping Dooku delivering any fatal blows or force attacks. Also it is clearly shown that Dooku wasnt participating to his full at the beginning. He didnt use his force powers until the battle got serious. Now, taking this into account it would be logical to assume that Obi-Wan would be taken out before 36 seconds. Not 37 seconds and certainly not a minute.

Vader, he probably Force Grips/Crushes him to death, and I'm sure his Lightsaber skills are past Mace, but no one gives him credit for it

I see what you're saying Ox, but i also see where Prodical is coming from. You said yourself that Ani/OB1 were trying to fake out Dooku together so neither were using their respective forms. Had they been alone, OB1 would have done better, as he did in AOTC. Now add in that he would have gotten stronger by ROTS, he would fair slightly longer. Just because Anakin tooled Dooku(sorry) in 36 seconds alone, doesn't mean Dooku will tool OB1 in 36 sec or less. That's like an A>B>C argument. If he did lightning, OB1 would certainly block it as he did before, and maybe Dooku would resort to using sabers again, where OB1 would hold him off for at least a minute. However....if Dooku chooses to use a different force attack, then Kenobi goes down faster. Either way, Kenobi loses, the amount of time is just dictated by how they battle.

Would you say thats about right, Ox?

Hmmm, I suppose. I just find it hard to see how people think that Obi-Wan will last longer against Dooku than what he did in ROTS. In ROTS the odds were heavily in Obi-Wans favour but he still got pwned in half a minute. Why would an all out fight be any different, this justs means that Dooku will try harder, faster.

But I guess I can sorta, kinda see where you are coming from Prodigal. Either way Dooku wins, time isnt really relevant anyway.

whoa whoa whoa...hold up. How is it stacked in OB1's favor? Its Dooku's ship, he knew they were coming, he had droids with him, he had GG lurking around somewhere which im sure added comfort, he had the terrain advantage, and had enough room to fully indulge in his form. He didnt have to worry about hitting his partner. the only thing OB1 had going for him, was Anakin. He didnt last long cause 1, he wasnt using his perfected form, and 2, i think he may have been relying a little too much on Anakin.

Im saying dooku would pwn him, just maybe not as fast as he did in ROTS. I mean shit, he lasted longer in AOTC.

Obi-wan had Anakin with him - who as we know is far better than Dooku. This also meant that Kenobi wouldnt have to use up as much energy becaue Anakin would be sharing half the work load. Dooku however had to use up more energy to have to compete with them both. Being on Dooku's ship meant little. Dooku having droids with him was almost a non-factor. GG didnt do anything so that is irrelevant. Dooku was also under the false assumption that Sidios would step in if anything went wrong. It looks to me that thing were more in Obi-Wan's favour than Dooku's.

nah, you said yourself he totally revitalized himself. I know that was more for his fight with Anakin, but the fact that he could do that THAT quickly means the energy factor was really no factor. And yes, it only takes one laser from a droid to kill a Jedi. I said the fact that knew GG was there was prolly comforting, didn't say it added to his advantage, but rather may have helped keep him calm. You're still not acknowledging the rest of the points. You're not admitting defeat or anything, just giving one of the top Jedi his dues.

Lol, I hardly even know why we are arguing. I personally think that things were more in Obi-wans favour than in Dooku's but heck, who really cares. The point is Dooku would win with ease. I highly doubt it would take a minute, 30 - 40 seconds max methinks.

oh im not "arguing" at all. Just think that He may last a minute....oh well...i'll be back tomorrow...work is coming in 4 and half hours...

Peace and chicken grease.

Vader.

Dude, guys, no! It took Anakin (by himself, Obi-Wan is gone already) 36 seconds to kill Dooku. Now Obi-Wan lasted for like five minutes against Anakin. Even if he knows Anakin truly and knows his moves, a lot of it has to come from Obi's skill. This is why since Dooku couldn't last against Skywalker for 36 seconds but Obi-Wan did for five minutes, then I would Dooku does kill Kenobi somewhere between at least forty seconds to 2 minutes.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Dude, guys, no! It took Anakin (by himself, Obi-Wan is gone already) 36 seconds to kill Dooku. Now Obi-Wan lasted for like five minutes against Anakin. Even if he knows Anakin truly and knows his moves, a lot of it has to come from Obi's skill. This is why since Dooku couldn't last against Skywalker for 36 seconds but Obi-Wan did for five minutes, then I would Dooku does kill Kenobi somewhere between at least forty seconds to 2 minutes.

It took five or so minutes for Obi-Wan to fight Anakin for several reasons:

1. Obi-Wan does indeed know Anakin's every move, his thoughts, how he reacts. While Anakin knows likewise, a fight with those conditions (preparation basically), would last longer than if neither combatant knew each other.
2. Obi-Wan's form is built for pure defense, hence he'll be able to withstand against the majority of duelists longer than others.
3. He constantly gave ground. He did not try and fight him head on. While this is, to me, considered "fighting smart" - Dooku didn't have this luxury because of the location of the fight versus Anakin.
4. After 1:30 (minutes) or near there, Obi-Wan resorted to tactics using the surroundings. I doubt very much if anyone could be killed whilst swinging around above a pool of lava, climbing towers, platform jumping and lava skating. This would also put a hinder in the time.

If it were the Invisible Hand, Obi-Wan wouldn't have lasted that long. The minutes would be severely decreased. Hell, if Obi-Wan didn't know Anakin, the time would more than likely be cut in half, even on Mustafar (Anakin probably would've won, as well).

In addition, Anakin couldn't overcome Obi-Wan with the Force, or rather, didn't attempt to except for when Obi-Wan initiated a pushing contest. Dooku, however, can easily terminate Kenobi with the Force.

Count Dooku has already fought Obi-Wan before, he knows his defense is near impenetrable. He witnessed this personally. Even if Tyranus initiates lightsaber combat, it won't be two minutes before Dooku realizes he can't overcome him that easily, ergo he will resort to using the Force like he did before. Which is why I submitted 40 seconds at the maximum. If you notice during AotC, Count Dooku would switch to a lightsaber duel once he comes to the realization that he cannot beat Yoda in the Force, likewise in RotS.

Tyranus often uses the Force during fights anyways. Against Sora, against Obi-Wan, and so on. By pure experience of battling Obi-Wan before, he knows his weakness is the Force. Count Dooku is a very intelligent, and adept fighter who would definitely exploit weaknesses in his opponent (see: RotS novel where he tries to use the weakness of a form to counter).

Obi-Wan and Anakin fought on a flat surface for 2 minutes 11 seconds. Dooku lasted 36 seconds against Skywalker. Now whatever much time knowing a person has to with us, I agree with you that half would be a good amount to cut it. This still makes Kenobi last longer. Of course, taking all things into consideration, I agree with you that it won't take two minutes.

Want to compromise for a time? You say forty seconds, I say 1 minute 5 seconds.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Obi-Wan and Anakin fought on a flat surface for 2 minutes 11 seconds. Dooku lasted 36 seconds against Skywalker. Now whatever much time knowing a person has to with us, I agree with you that half would be a good amount to cut it. This still makes Kenobi last longer. Of course, taking all things into consideration, I agree with you that it won't take two minutes.

Want to compromise for a time? You say forty seconds, I say 1 minute 5 seconds.

Prodigal Knight, as being a veteran of this forum: I hereby advice you to: STFU. Advent and Escape(As I stalked them) are good debators, may even be in par with Faunus and Janus.

By calculating carefully, I found out the percentage of you winning is: 0.45214091294192%, and someone tells me its not good chance of winning.

Not to mention is TWO PROS against ONE.

P.S Remember how Dooku used a single force power to knock out Obi?(Took about 2 or 3 seconds no?) Imagine that and Dooku electricuting him to death. STARWARALITY!

, your "veteran" experience is showing

FYI, I have debated with Advent before, three times to be exact, and I would say my track record is 0-2-1 (including this one, unless you want to call it a victory for yourself advent (Win-Tie-Lose).



Obviously, if you read what I wrote earlier, you would notice I talked about this.

I'm not going to back down because I am debating against a pro. I'll fight on if I must.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
, your "veteran" experience is showing

FYI, I have debated with Advent before, three times to be exact, and I would say my track record is 0-2-1 (including this one, unless you want to call it a victory for yourself advent (Win-Tie-Lose).



Obviously, if you read what I wrote earlier, you would notice I talked about this.

I'm not going to back down because I am debating against a pro. I'll fight on if I must.

I'm a Veteran cause I was here for a looong time. But I refuse to debate because it leads to the 'dark side'. Seriously, you have NOTING. So question, 0-2-1, doesn't seem like a good record, its a Texan against the Colt.

P.S Your also going against Escape too, he has mad debating skillz!111

That's what I thought, at least you're honest.

Originally posted by Noob_Krueger
I'm a Veteran cause I was here for a looong time. But I refuse to debate because it leads to the 'dark side'. Seriously, you have NOTING. So question, 0-2-1, doesn't seem like a good record, its a Texan against the Colt.

P.S Your also going against Escape too, he has mad debating skillz!111

Shut up. You aren't a veteran. You're still a noob.

Originally posted by Dessel
That's what I thought, at least you're honest.

Yes, I suck at debating. But I know who can debate, and who can't.


@Rocas: I'm sorry but, Who the HELL are YOU?

Originally posted by Noob_Krueger
Yes, I suck at debating. But I know who can debate, and who can't.


@Rocas: I'm sorry but, Who the HELL are YOU?

I'm sorry, but I've been here longer than you have, and still remember how much of an idiot you are.

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
I'm sorry, but I've been here longer than you have, and still remember how much of an idiot you are.

Okay, but who the hell are you?

Originally posted by Noob_Krueger
Okay, but who the hell are you?

HimoKun.

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
HimoKun.

Don't remember. Perhaps show me your old avatar or siggy?

Originally posted by Noob_Krueger
Okay, but who the hell are you?

He's hornyman, the pimp of pics.

Originally posted by Noob_Krueger
Don't remember. Perhaps show me your old avatar or siggy?

half-nude women. Take your pick.

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
half-nude women. Take your pick.


Still don't remember...

Originally posted by Noob_Krueger
Still don't remember...

bashed you constantly.

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
bashed you constantly.

So did other 999999 members.

Originally posted by Noob_Krueger
So did other 999999 members.

Eh.

Well my first real debate here when I came back for real was against Advent, and I got crushed (I expected as well I would), but after that I improved A LOT! So, it's not that bad, besides Advent is one of the best, you can't expect me to have 6-0 against her or something.

And Advent took over for Escape (they're lovers, they'll do anything for each other) so I have to deal with her now.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Well my first real debate here when I came back for real was against Advent, and I got crushed (I expected as well I would), but after that I improved A LOT! So, it's not that bad, besides Advent is one of the best, you can't expect me to have 6-0 against her or something.

And Advent took over for Escape (they're lovers, they'll do anything for each other) so I have to deal with her now.

Advent=Girl? Damn. Stop debating against her cause...

1) NOTING can go through women
2) It's not gentlemeness..

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
:FYI, I have debated with Advent before, three times to be exact, and I would say my track record is 0-2-1 (including this one, unless you want to call it a victory for yourself advent) (Win-Tie-Lose).

Since when did you tie me twice? If you are referring to the Mace Windu and Kyle Katarn vs. Darth Revan and Obi-Wan, you are gravely mistaken as that's the only real debate I've gotten in to you that would come to mind as something you'd consider a "tie". I don't consider saying "Malak used six Jedi", and "I feel bad for Kyle" is much of a tie, especially when I put those to rest.

If not that debate, where else?

Albeit, I would concede you've gotten better since you first entered KMC. Nearly everyone does, save for those of whom I don't want to mention, but will anyways - Numan, Blak Fox, etc. And me, I'm not as good as I used to be.

1.) Vodo is Good Debate
Winner: Advent
Loser: Quinlan_Vos

2.) ROTS Obi-Wan & Revan vs. Mace and Kyle
You can say whatever you like about that, the fact remains you can't say
you defeated me, and neither could I.

Tie: Quinlan_Vos & Advent

3.) Mace Windu vs. Darth Vader (Obi Versus Dooku)

You did give a huge post in the end, but you yourself said it was going to go in circles, so I stopped. And now we're just deciding on how long Kenobi can last.

Tie: Prodigal Knight & Advent

HOWEVER Advent, I am not saying I am as good as you. Nope, I know for sure you are better than me, so if you're thinking I am saying "PK is on par with Advent", that's not the case. I am only stating what the facts say, but I know common sense tells me Advent > myself.

Also, I really didn't get much better from KMC. I already said I am taking Argumentation, which is more or less debate except more formal, so yeah, that trains me up.

No, the fact doesn't remain. You did not tie me, plain and simple. This is your perception, not fact. I never realized opinions were now constituted as fact.

Likewise on me, however, you cannot say it was a tie as fact, as much is ridiculous considering I defeated the majority of your points (i.e. Malak using six Jedi, claiming Obi-Wan wasn't owned by Dooku with the Force, took Dooku 45 seconds to take out Obi-Wan, etc.).

What do you mean "defeated the majority of your points"

1.) You said it was going in circles in this thread, so I kept quiet, because it's going to go back and forth.

2.) Hardly. That thread nobody won. You can keep claiming you defeated "majority of my points", but if you don't like it as a tie, then I call it inconclusive

1. What are you talking about? I'm referring completely to the RotS Mace/Katarn vs. Revan/Obi-Wan thread. This thread would be semi-inconclusive (hardly, but whatever).

2. No. You consider that thread as a "tie", as no victor coming through. However, I did defeat several of your points, and had the majority of your argument on lock. I'm not claiming, I really did.

Don't believe it? Points defeated included:

- Malak using the full power, and all of the Jedi captives. Defeated. (This was the main argument).
- "Multiple" neccessarily means "several", and not just two. Defeated.
- That there's a reason to "feel bad" for Kyle Katarn against Obi-Wan. Defeated.
- Obi-Wan lasted 45 seconds against Count Dooku. Defeated.
- Obi-Wan would've gotten up after being tossed into the wall, had Dooku not brought down the platform. Defeated. (Kenobi was out cold before).
- Obi-Wan didn't get tooled by the Force. Defeated.
- At the time Obi-Wan was fighting, he was using Ataru. Defeated. (He was using Ataru, but this was before any Force attacks were displayed).
- Since Revan is canonically a Lightsaber, he knows all Lightside moves from the game. Defeated.

^
Believe it.

Among various other things. The main argument was how many Jedi captives used when combating Revan. I proved there is no way you can say as fact that he used more than two, as we didn't know. Afterwards, you also kept using appeal to probability, which is a logical fallacy.

I'd say it's not as "inconclusive" as you'd like to think. So, while you can consider it "inconclusive", a "tie", whatever - I, and the rest of the world, wouldn't title it as such.

I don't see how this particular argument of yours is worth anything, Prodigal. You've debated much better than this, before. Advent has taken everything I've said, and then added some more to it. Logic dictates that Obi-Wan isn't, really, anything close to Count Dooku. Yes, he could tie Dooku up in a lightsaber fight for a little while (though I'm pretty damn sure he could crush him eventually), but in a Force fight? No. In fact, hell no. Obi-Wan's not even close. In an all out fight? No.

Um, Advent, when did you so call "defeat" all my points. In case you were wondering, we both stop arguing after a certain point. You didn't fight back and I just watched Nai and Sexy snap at each others throats. Your last real argumentative post in that thread was fighting back against my previous statements. There was no conclusive evidence that showed you "defeating" my points.

But I am not a person who lives to dwell in the past. You can consider it victory for yourself and I can consider it as a tie, it doesn't mattter, it's not going to affect the future anyway.


@ Escape

First of all, thank you for the compliment. Next, I have my reasons for why Kenobi can last for about 1 minute against Dooku. And I know that Dooku is greater than Obi-Wan, but I do not like it how based on one single move that everyone considers Dooku >>> Obi-Wan. HE's NOT!!! That Kick-Choke-Throw could have been done the same towards Anakin. But that doesn't matter. The point is Escape, I am not going to give up because I know it's unfair to Kenobi to say he's going to lose in twenty seconds because if you analyze the duel, that CANNOT HAPPEN.

I am going to retire from this thread, but what my basic point is that Dooku kills Obi-Wan in 65 seconds.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Um, Advent, when did you so call "defeat" all my points.

In the thread, genius. Where else?

The main argument was that Malak must have used more than two. Initially, it was he used all six. I defeated this as we don't know, whereas you kept using appeal to probability. A point would be defeated if, in fact, no viable argument can be made. No viable argument could be made on your behalf, ergo "defeated". Simple as that.

"Malak had six Jedi, he must've used them all/majority of. The probability is high, likely. Why not use all/majority of?"

Appeal to probability, logical fallacy (in that, your argument is already defeated). We don't know, ergo it's not fact. Basically, all I was arguing was that we don't know. Your argument was he must've used more than two. Which one is right? Oh, yeah. Mine.



Are you serious?

I provided viable arguments and evidence as to why you cannot claim as fact that Malak used all six Jedi, like you kept implying. This is a conclusion that anyone who actually reads the thread can come to. And of all those points that were listed, I defeated them. If you don't believe it, I can copy and paste each one. Would you like me to? Or will you realize that, in fact, your arguments against - for the majority - were incorrect, and severely flawed?

Like really, no "conclusive evidence"? Uh-huh. The only thing that wasn't completely conclusive was how many Jedi captives Malak used. However, that didn't have to be conclusive inasmuch as I defeated your numerous theories on why he must've used more than two. The number would more than likely never be known, but that wasn't the point. It was you ridiculousing assuming he used "6 or 7".

Likewise, there were numerous other points that I already listed. Again, I will copy/paste them and PM them to you, if you'd like a little refreshing, son.



No, but it will piss me off. As minuscule as it may be, whether it's over the internet or in real life - you did not tie me. Do not mark that as a "tie" for yourself, and claim you actually did anything of importance.

I'm sorry if you feel I'm being aggressive, or whatever over something as ridiculous as this, however, I strongly disagree with it being a "tie" (mainly because it wasn't).

I'd agree to not bringing this up anymore, as this topic is way off topic at this point (not that there's anything to discuss about it anymore anyways), but final statement: No. You did not tie me, do not wildly claim you did, because *hint* you didn't.

Why are we talking about Malak in a topic about Anakin and Mace? Weird. Advent, i sent you a PM. YOu should respond sometime, ya know. Only if you want to, that is.

So, Vader wins this.

Lies! All Lies!

Prodigal, I am officially about to LMFAO at your response.

The reason is simple: you made that shit up! This whole time I was under the assumption that the databank actually said "multiple". Guess what? It didn't.

See, I just rechecked that thread. Here's the page where you blatantly made that up in an attempt to save your sorry ass:

Prodigal? Ahem, I don't think so.

Now, if you look at my response. I copy and pasted verbatim what the Star Wars databank says. Neither multiple nor several were to be found.

Basically, you posted the dictionary and that ridiculous rebuttal for no reason because you lied! Lawlz.

In addition, because I just proved you lied, and plainly pulled that "several" shit straight from your ass - you are thus wrong, and appeal to probability still works. If you would instead actually take a logic course or two, or read up on an actual book instead of using Cliff Notes, you'd realize appeal to probability is still applicable. Just because it's likely Malak used more than two, it doesn't mean it is so. It works in this case because there is no definitive proof he used any more than two, hence you fail yet again.

So, please excuse me while I LMFAO! Next time you try and step up to me, you better come well equipped, son. That KMC schoolyard bullshit will not fly.

QED.

Now, for the rest of that...

1. My ego rarely has an effect on my process of thinking. Rather, I should say, when I debate. The only time my ego seems to be inflated is during times of which sheer idiocy is displayed during something not inclusive of an actual versus debate (in that, I mean during a versus debate). You may not have think you have lost, but plainly you did.

2. What would my "intimidation" have to do with you? I don't try and intimidate people into thinking I'm better, or that I'm right. I do this by plain virtue of fact. I display logic, evidence, and the like.

3. I really don't consider what I said to be comedic, but if you want to think that - it's on you. I will go on knowing I won, not thinking. Hell, you brought the dictionary in this post for no reason, and look what happened? I just proved that you lied in the RotS Windu/Katarn thread!

Oh, and here's what I wrote concerning that "multiple" bullshit:

Originally posted by Advent
Alright. If I may, I'd like to introduce People's Exhibit 22, a written excerpt from the Star Wars databank:

"This confrontation erupted into a massive battle as Republic fleet forces arrived to attack the Star Forge. Endless streams of ships poured forth from the Star Forge, striking against the amassed warships of the Republic. The Sith Lord had grotesquely adapted the Rakatan device to draw energy directly from chained Jedi captives. He replenished his life force from the captives by draining theirs. Malak was nearly unstoppable, but the Republic emerged from that epic conflict victorious, as the Star Forge was eventually destroyed."

-- SW Databank, Darth Malak.

Now, Mr. Vos - if you'd please tell the forum: where's "multiple" again? Ah, nowhere to be found. It never says "multiple", never says "several", ergo you don't know. I'll go with "You're making shit up in an attempt to save your argument" for $400.

It says exactly "from the captives", which is plural, which could mean two. Which means you don't know, which turns into me telling you to quit pulling numbers out of your ass and substituting bullshit for fact.

Nothing further.

Just in case you are too lazy, or try to claim you didn't make shit up. Furthermore, your response to my post didn't deny that you lied. Like I said in my response, "captives" is plural. Plural meaning more than one, which leads me into now telling you that you are a liar. Sucks when KMC actually keeps a written record of all that has been said, huh?

So unlucky.

lol, PK, you just got yourself pwned by a nebaris quote.

WTF ARE YOU SMOKING??? I COULD SUE YOUR ASS FOR LIBEL HERE!!!

I wrote this:



DID I EVER SAY IT SAID MULTIPLE IN THE DATABANK??? NO, I DID NOT!!! SO STFU AND STOP MAKING UP SHIT THAT I DID!!!

Obviously, you don't know how to read so you stupidly reply



when I NEVER SAID IT DID SAY MULTIPLE IN THE DATABANK. I said if it was two, they would have couple. Why would they have six Jedi and Malak only uses two? Doesn't work out...

And here's the definition of plural:


Relating to or composed of more than one member, set , or kind: the plural meanings of a text; a plural society.


Now definition of set:

a group of persons associated by common interests (they were a set for the benefit of Malak)


Definition of group:

an assemblage of related organisms


a number of individuals assembled together or having some unifying relationship


As you can see, it's seems more than likely that Malak used more than two Jedi.

Okay, I must apologize Advent. Obviously, I can understand if you think I am being way too arrogant or stupid or something along those lines. I just want to defend myself to a degree. I can understand if you strongly agree that you won the debate. I for one just feel I deserve credit. I battled you with the best of ability back then and I strongly feel that I didn't lose that argument. I know how it's like losing to you before, so yeah I'm sorry if you feel frusterated and mad at me.

Whatever, I was just trying to protect myself from when you were saying I made up "lies". I did not actually. I said "if there were...", which doesn't mean that I said Databank said multiple. You speculated that, and you were very off.


Hmmm, about plural. Yes, you could say that indeed. I relied on probability for that. Can you name the source where is says Appeal to Probability is an illogical fallancy? Wikipedia says otherwise, so I was a bit confused.

BTW, can you please concede that argument as a tie, it'll improve my track record, and yours I bet is already 100-0-0 . However, if you REALLY feel you won it, then I don't care then. I told you before, I don't like to deal with the past.

And Advent, did we decide a time for how long Kenobi can last against Dooku? I totally forgot about that when we were doing Ego Wars.

Oh yeah Advent, you're as old as my sister (random fact when I looked at you profile).

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Can you name the source where is says Appeal to Probability is an illogical fallancy? Wikipedia says otherwise, so I was a bit confused.

Uh? Appeal to probability is a logical fallacy, I have no idea what an "illogical fallancy" is. And what do you mean Cliff Notes says otherwise? The first sentence is:

The appeal to probability is a logical fallacy, often used in conjunction with other fallacies.

It says "often used", which doesn't mean without another fallacy it is incorrect to say. Your Cliff Notes even would note:

...the appeal to probability is a common trend in many arguments, enough for many to consider it a fallacy of itself.

As far of the rest of your post goes, I will not concede to a debate as something different than I'd feel it was. And I can, indeed, admit defeated (see: Ushgarak owning my ass, and I admitted that someone who I couldn't stand at the time, "beat me" technically, as their case was more put together then mine). I would not hold it as a victory over you, or a loss for you - however you want to put it, and even though there really isn't another option, I will not agree it was a "tie".

Track records have nothing to do with debating, or how good you actually are. For example, on EoD any argument I make is utterly destroyed for the most part, ha. Who the hell keeps a track record anyways? Lol. The fact still would remain that you're far better than the majority of KMC debaters.

Oh...I guess I must have been reading wrong (probably the pressure from debating against someone of your skill).



Oh yeah, I heard about Ush doing that to you. Ush is on a plane by himself. BTW, I don't care about this anymore. That is a dead topic and my arrogance (I'm a guy, I get cocky a lot) told me that "Oh yeah PK, you tied with Advent!!!". Which is wrong, and you proved that



Yeah well, I'm the first I guess. And I suck compared to a lot of people, like Ush, Escape, you, and several other old-time debators. Some days I have the mindset to take on people MUCH better than me, but other days I am absolutely crap and I get almost get owned.

Really, really doubt that, Advent. You're among the best on EoD, too. If you think that they're leagues above you, you're damn wrong, lol. If I may remind you "Dooku > Sidious"? Rofl.

Hey do you think I should I join EoD? I heard it was good so...

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Hey do you think I should I join EoD? I heard it was good so...

I don't go to EoD. I had a major disagreement with the way that Janus and Illustrious choose to run the forums. As such, they and I don't get along - at all. But, for the most part, people enjoy the place.

You should join, it's real good. The SW debating has kinda died down, but there's this real cool SW RP that you could probably join. The link's in my sig.

EoD?

I think that Mace will win this fight.

His Vaapad is effective against any Saber Duel form.

Forum run by an old member here.

EoD

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I think that Mace will win this fight.

His Vaapad is effective against any Saber Duel form.

Soresu counters it.

So, is that complimenting me too? You did say that me and Advent debate alike :P

Originally posted by Swirly Girl
So, is that complimenting me too? You did say that me and Advent debate alike :P

You are.

Believe it or not, I did actually once beat Advent in a debate.

Originally posted by Dessel
Believe it or not, I did actually once beat Advent in a debate.

I'll remain skeptical at this time. When Advent debates, she's the very best on this forum. The same with Janus, Illustrious, and co. When they really get serious, and out from that shroud of bias, there's no one who can stop them.

There are weaknesses in Advent's debating techniques, however it's hard to find them as she carefully writes everything she posts. Even if you come up with sometimes the best rebuttal, she finds a way to counter.

I'd be very much obliged if you could provide these `weaknesses`, as I've not seen any in her debating technique and I doubt I ever will.

`shroud of bias`? I'm somewhat at a loss as what to say here.

Well I don't know about Janus or Illustrious, but that definitely applies to IKC. He's on par with the best, but he's phenomenally bias towards Kun and against Luke.

Originally posted by Swirly Girl
`shroud of bias`? I'm somewhat at a loss as what to say here.

On certain issues, some of your friends have been known to harbor extreme biases. That's what led to our falling out, Traya. The subject of the Ancient Sith, for example. How Janus regards Tulak Horde as the best lightsaber duelist on EoD, as I remembered before my account was deleted, despite only a single quote labeling him as any good.

And, yet, now, when the manner of Palpatine or any of the 'modern' era is brought up, such quotes are "naked" and without any evidence to back them up.

Then... Dooku > Anakin (isn't the case)... Dooku > Sidious (isn't the case)... Dooku > Yoda (isn't the case). There was a time when Count Dooku was the god of power, other than the Ancient Sith. Janus, Illustrious, Nai, Sorgo, Faunus - and, if I recall - even yourself. You argued for it, for the most part.

You all present your arguments so well that a lot of people ended up adhering to it. In that respect, you all are among the very best debators (in my honest opinion).

But you cannot deny that some of what you all argued is a bit ridiculous.

Originally posted by Dessel
Well I don't know about Janus or Illustrious, but that definitely applies to IKC. He's on par with the best, but he's phenomenally bias towards Kun and against Luke.

IKC is a vicious debator; kind've like I have been, at times, with you, and SW Legend. I agree. He was a fanatic for Exar Kun, and he thoroughly despised Luke Skywalker. In my opinion, anyone is free to like/dislike/love/hate any character they choose. But it becomes a problem when your debating reflects it.

However, I will say that the man could drive nearly any point home.

That is part of the reason I began to defend Luke and Sidious on versus threads when I came here. They were being undermined at every turn. I don't even want to get into all of them. Hell, Illustrious and Janus believed that 'Sidious was a benefactor of circumstance' in terms of his accomplishments. Why? My only guess is that they disliked the character and attempted to undermine him.

You're trying to make it seem that Janus passed off his position as being infallible and so on. He went on to acknowledge that the list was changeable. Here's the quote:

`No, of course not. But seeing as Tulak Hord's lightsaber skills top those of his era as well as those who came before him and a good deal of those who came after him (Up until the KotOR era at least), this makes him exceptionally good and likely in the top ten. Where I put people in my top ten is entirely my own business. I've already noted that it's subject to change and that nothing's definate or dogma. The sooner you realize this, the easier this becomes.`

Janus openly states that `I've already noted that it's subject to change and that nothing's definate or dogma`. He provides reasons for his position, and acknowledges effectively that his list isn't definite or not subject to change. He's not some raging Ushgarak figure who harbours the largest PT bias you've ever seen and who's mind is constantly unfixed when it comes to change.

Furthmore, whether or not Tulak has one quote to his name is irrelevant in terms of where he ought to be put in a personal, mutable list. It's the content of the quote. So please, don't imply that Janus has some raging bias against anything that isn't an ancient Sith. He doesn't.



A further irrelevancy and a fairly broad generalisation. My `friends` don't denounce every quote that is brought up regarding the `modern` era, and to suggest so is unashamebly false. Furthermore, you need to disprove `their`arguments before you can denounce them as being false, which was something I didn't see happen.



You're on shaky ground here, Escape. Janus directly acknowledged at the last permutation of EoD that Anakin was indeed superior to Dooku in lightsabre combat, but that Lucas needed to `put down the pipe` or some other insulting comment. Indeed, you're also presuming that this is the widely held view by `my friends` today and that they haven't changed their minds or adopted new views.



You ought to tailor your arguments a little better. The widely held view was that Dooku was equal to Sidious in terms of lightsabre abilities, but that Sidious would tool Dooku overall. Furthermore, this was a widely held view in the past, and not necessarily now.



^ See above. The argument was based upon the AotC depiction of the fight and furthmore, it was in terms of lightsabre abilities. In addition, I seem to remember Nai and Faunus opposing the idea. To further drive in my point, it was a widely held view in the past. Do I have to state this over and over again?



This is a falsehood. I can recall arguments being made about Malak and Dooku being on par and suchlike. You can either give me a reference to such a post or you may want to think before you spout out anything else. I argued for it? I didn't argue that `Count Dooku was the god of power` and I can't quite remember anyone else professing such views or anything along those lines. In all fairness, I think the reason is that it never happened.



I can say that some of what we argued might have been a little incorrect, but insofar as MORE official sources have come out since then, some of `our` old theories have been shunned off.

You can rail about how Illustrious and Janus are inhibited by bias and such on, but you saying it neither makes it true nor makes it have any semblance of being correct.

He acknowledged it because I threw the script, the novelization, and Lucas's commentary into the fray. Canon sources that proved that his previous verdict of the fight was completely false, but even then, I think that he credits Anakin's victory as Lucas's bias for Anakin, and a needed plot device.



Would you like me to provide the testaments of Illustrious and Janus from a thread (aptly named) Dooku vs. Sidious? Janus challenged Sidious's Force superiority, and outright stated that Dooku was much better in a lightsaber duel. He and Nai both argued that Sidious would likely lose.

If you would like me to, I will, and then we will discuss whether or not I need to tailor my arguments better.

I expect their view to change. Because, like Advent and I proved that Anakin > Dooku, an interview with George Lucas lumped Dooku in with Maul and suit-Vader in that their potentials aren't close to Palpatine's, and neither of them could be more powerful than him.

As for the rest, it is your opinion, and having been around to experience the changes in their opinion, I consent.

just reading the first two pages of that thread made me physically ill. That was like watching Ox time 10 talk about Dooku and give him praise. I mean come one, power scales? No one here is a proper authority to actually rate their powers against one another. And there's no way in hell that Dooku has more force mastery than Sidious. Thank god for canonical material.

No.

Originally posted by Advent
No.

?

yea, what he said...No, what? You think Dooku is more powerful than Sidious?

Originally posted by Escape81
?



What do you mean by "?"?

EDIT:

No, I do not think Count Dooku is more powerful than Sidious. He'd present a challenge for Sidious, yes, but by far he's not going to defeat Sidious.

Originally posted by Advent




What do you mean by "?"?

EDIT:

No, I do not think Count Dooku is more powerful than Sidious. He'd present a challenge for Sidious, yes, but by far he's not going to defeat Sidious.

Just curious why you said "no", that's all. Didja get my PM?

I think we're asking if that "no" was in agreeance or out of a difference of opinion.

didn't see your post yet Escape.

The reason I would post something as simple as "no" is purely out of boredom (save for if it was a statement made that was purely ridiculous). It's always fun to see if someone has an inquiry about it, I think.

Err...yeah, something like that. It had nothing to do with your actual post, Subjekt. And no, Escape - I didn't seem to receive the PM you sent.

Edit:

Actually, yeah, I did, Escape. I must've had it opened, but didn't read it. It wasn't marked as unread, but to answer your PM: No.

(I really don't like myspizzles for some reason. I had one, but deleted it two months ago.)