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battle of the century

Good one.IMO Champion wins.

Champ has a glass jaw.
no way he can take shots from Juggs.

Champion.

Originally posted by carver9
battle of the century

Champion will win. Juggernaut is not truly unstoppable. His power is drawn from Cyttorak, who is at best Galactus level in terms of overall power.

Moreover, Champion draws his power from the Big Bang. Recent scientific studies have shown that such a power source, would make one omnipotent in the real world, as well as in the comic book world.

Champion, written well, wins.

ok. so, i guess we are going to ignore the actual events that Champion has been involved in. I guess we will just forget about the facts that he almost ALWAYS loses.

I have known plenty of guys that were involved in martial arts, or wrestling or stuff like that for YEARS AND YEARS, AND were very very strong compared to opponents.

And, they would still lose all the time.

That is the same with Champion.
He sucks.

No matter how strong he is, or how many years he has fighting, he still sucks.

Hey, don't take it so hard. Maybe he is just suffering from "Burn Out" the last couple million years or something.

Either way, he loses.

Because, well, as I said, he sucks. And, is sucky. Like a sucker.

Nah, he losses cause his a badguy... a villain.. Make him a hero give him a new hair duo and hid be like Batman w/ incalculable strength.. million of years of exp and all...

Really dough i think Champion should take it.. Unexhaustable power source + there is no limits of what they can do, Elders i mean...

Originally posted by Horrificus
ok. so, i guess we are going to ignore the actual events that Champion has been involved in. I guess we will just forget about the facts that he almost ALWAYS loses.


Logic Fallacy of Appeal to Tradition

The causation of a pre-existing valid preclusion, does not make one's post-existing conclusion valid, despite such conclusion being factually sound.

Moreover, if you are so adamant about others who "ignore" events that the Champion has lost, why are you also so adamant about ignoring events that he has won?

Originally posted by Horrificus
I have known plenty of guys that were involved in martial arts, or wrestling or stuff like that for YEARS AND YEARS, AND were very very strong compared to opponents.

And, they would still lose all the time.


Logic Fallacy of False Dilemma

To assume that..

A. Martial artists train for many years and become strong.
B. Strong martial artists loose "all the time."

Does not support the conclusion that the Champion being a strong martial artist, will loose "all the time" to the Juggernaut

Originally posted by Horrificus
That is the same with Champion.
He sucks.

No matter how strong he is, or how many years he has fighting, he still sucks.


Logic Fallacy of Ad Hominem Abusive..

Stating that Champion "sucks" is not giving a valid reason for why he will be defeated.

Moreover, each time one seeks to damage the credibility of another using personal attacks, they only succeed in damaging their own.


Originally posted by Horrificus
Hey, don't take it so hard. Maybe he is just suffering from "Burn Out" the last couple million years or something.

Either way, he loses.

Because, well, as I said, he sucks. And, is sucky. Like a sucker.

If you are so certain that "he looses", why have you not provided a single reason as to why "he looses" in your post?

If you are so certain that Juggernaut wins, why is it that you have not provided a single shred of evidence, which would demonstrate him defeating opponents on the level of the Champion?

It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.

Perhaps you should enter the arena of the Champion, before you become qualified to speak against him.

Um, ok. Just give me a second to shake all of that tripe out of my head... aaahhh... That's more like it.
Anyway, you ignored the actual points I made, so you could give yourself an opportunity to show all the "Comic Book Forum" people that you are well-versed in..., well, in what?! Latin, Debate and "Ability to annoy"?
Great. As I said, to make it simpler for you:

1. Champion has a terrible record. There is no reason to go into detail about the pitiful, few wins he may have. As there is no reason to go into description of his losses. His record is terrible. Period.

2. (In regard to your response to my Martial Arts/Strength comment): As others make use of the "Power" and "Skill" arguments that I am used to seeing in this forum, I jumped to the logical and inevitable conclusion of that train of thought, and made another point. WHich you misunderstood. I have known people who had so much experience, and so much physical ability and strength, that there should have been no reason for their lack of positive results.

3. Let's flow into your 3rd point: What is "Suckiness"? Hehe.
Therefore, it is possible for somebody to have all the attributes in the world, and still fail miserably, for whatever reason. Rather than try and figure out what that reason is, (in Champion's case), I just chalk it up to him having some sort of "Dark Cloud" over him, or burnout, or whatever. I don't care. The point is, he does not seem to be able to make good use of all the tools at his disposal. Which, in the end, is all that matters.

4. I am so certain that he loses, because in comparison to Juggs, Champion has always made extremely poor use of his power and experience. While, Juggernaut has show an inate ability to make reasonably good use of his, against some pretty serious opposition.
Which would show either better fighting ability, more effective power, or both.

Originally posted by Horrificus
Um, ok. Just give me a second to shake all of that tripe out of my head... aaahhh... That's more like it.
Anyway, you ignored the actual points I made, so you could give yourself an opportunity to show all the "Comic Book Forum" people that you are well-versed in..., well, in what?! Latin, Debate and "Ability to annoy"?
Great. As I said, to make it simpler for you:

1. Champion has a terrible record. There is no reason to go into detail about the pitiful, few wins he may have. As there is no reason to go into description of his losses. His record is terrible. Period.

2. (In regard to your response to my Martial Arts/Strength comment): As others make use of the "Power" and "Skill" arguments that I am used to seeing in this forum, I jumped to the logical and inevitable conclusion of that train of thought, and made another point. WHich you misunderstood. I have known people who had so much experience, and so much physical ability and strength, that there should have been no reason for their lack of positive results.

3. Let's flow into your 3rd point: What is "Suckiness"? Hehe.
Therefore, it is possible for somebody to have all the attributes in the world, and still fail miserably, for whatever reason. Rather than try and figure out what that reason is, (in Champion's case), I just chalk it up to him having some sort of "Dark Cloud" over him, or burnout, or whatever. I don't care. The point is, he does not seem to be able to make good use of all the tools at his disposal. Which, in the end, is all that matters.

4. I am so certain that he loses, because in comparison to Juggs, Champion has always made extremely poor use of his power and experience. While, Juggernaut has show an inate ability to make reasonably good use of his, against some pretty serious opposition.
Which would show either better fighting ability, more effective power, or both. good post

thanks

Considering his power, most of his battles are not what they should be on a forum. Champion should be one of the top tier guys. Besides, he loses mostly because of his patience and respect for game rules. He's a class A jobber.

Originally posted by Horrificus
Um, ok. Just give me a second to shake all of that tripe out of my head... aaahhh... That's more like it.
Anyway, you ignored the actual points I made, so you could give yourself an opportunity to show all the "Comic Book Forum" people that you are well-versed in..., well, in what?! Latin, Debate and "Ability to annoy"?
Great. As I said, to make it simpler for you:


Congratulations on committing the Logic Fallacy of the Appeal to Ridicule and the Fallacy of the Strawman...

To admonish and make fun of one's style of debate in relation to a "Comic Book Forum", does not support the validity of one's argument.

Moreover, this argument does not have any relevancy to the main argument being presented in this thread.

Originally posted by Horrificus
1. Champion has a terrible record. There is no reason to go into detail about the pitiful, few wins he may have. As there is no reason to go into description of his losses. His record is terrible. Period.



And by that same logic -- Juggernaut has a '..terrible record -- period'

Originally posted by Horrificus
2. (In regard to your response to my Martial Arts/Strength comment): As others make use of the "Power" and "Skill" arguments that I am used to seeing in this forum, I jumped to the logical and inevitable conclusion of that train of thought, and made another point. WHich you misunderstood. I have known people who had so much experience, and so much physical ability and strength, that there should have been no reason for their lack of positive results.


Let us presume that you are correct, and that lack of positive results -- does indeed equate to who will be the victor of this battle.

Using this logic, it would then be more logical for one to assume that the Juggernaut has the greater "lack of positive results" when compared to the Champion - seeing as how the former character, has had much more comic book appearances than the latter.

Originally posted by Horrificus
3. Let's flow into your 3rd point: What is "Suckiness"? Hehe.
Therefore, it is possible for somebody to have all the attributes in the world, and still fail miserably, for whatever reason. Rather than try and figure out what that reason is, (in Champion's case), I just chalk it up to him having some sort of "Dark Cloud" over him, or burnout, or whatever. I don't care. The point is, he does not seem to be able to make good use of all the tools at his disposal. Which, in the end, is all that matters.


Your personal opinion of the Champion's "Suckiness" does not dismiss his overall ability and potential. That is the reason why we have these debates, which are predominantly based on a character's overall power and skill, rather than the outcomes of battles predetermined by sales and overall popularity of a character.

Moreover, as it has already been stated to you above - by your logic, the Juggernaut has a much "Darker Cloud" hanging over him, since he has lost many more battles than the Champion.

Originally posted by Horrificus
4. I am so certain that he loses, because in comparison to Juggs, Champion has always made extremely poor use of his power and experience. While, Juggernaut has show an inate ability to make reasonably good use of his, against some pretty serious opposition.
Which would show either better fighting ability, more effective power, or both.


You cannot have it both ways -- either we compare the individuals on basis of comic book history, or we compare them on basis of powers and ability.

History has shown us that Juggernaut has lost many more battles than the Champion.

From a power/ability stance, the Champion is capable of harnessing much more potential than Juggernaut. He receives his power from the residual energies of the big bang, which started all life within the universe. This includes life within the Crimson Cosmos.

Additionally, the Champion cannot be killed until the universe ends, due to the Grandmaster's pact with Death. He also possesses thousands of years worth of fighting skill, and has defeated entire planets full of trained warriors.

Furthermore, the only way the Juggernaut can win this battle, is if he somehow manages to molecularly disperse the Champion's physical form. You have yet to provide any evidence of him being capable of such an attack from a historical or power related perspective - and being as such, the credibility of your argument will continue to be severely lacking.

Blah, Blah, Blah, does anybody else have anything interesting to say about the actual match?

I am not interested in reading a point of view from somebody that is more interested in proving himself correct, over actually weighing facts, feats and battle history.

This isn't a "debate". Nobody in here is interested in how well you write your perspective, and MANY of us, comic book forum folks, contrary to popular belief, or extremely intelligent. Painfully so, in many cases.
So, smarts and debate ability do no impress us.
If you want to impress, and if you want to prove your point, you need:

Facts

a. Juggernaut has defeated more powerful opponents than Champ.
b. Champion has lost to weaker opponents than Juggernaut.
c. Champion has more Marvel-written losses than Juggernaut.
d. Juggernaut has more Marvel-written wins than Champion.
e. Juggernaut has shrugged off blows from the same characters that have actually caused major damage to Champion. (Including "non-Top-Tiers" like the Thing)

These facts were just off the top of my head.
And, no, the power than Champion uses does not have anything to do with the Crimson energies of Cyttorak.
Nor has Champ showed any ability to utilize large portions of his energy, or an ability to tap it quickly, or an ability to tap it in any way that has significantly helped him in battle.

Do you have any idea how many opponents Juggernaut has fought, who "supposedly" have UNLIMITED POWER?

Juggernaut also has access to unlimited power.

Unless it has been shown in battle, in a fight record, in feats, etc, it doesn't mean anything in an argument like this.

Horrificus -- this article describes as to why you argue for Juggernaut perfectly.

Lol, that was hilarious Mr. Richards.

Originally posted by The_Barbarian
Horrificus -- this article describes as to why you argue for Juggernaut perfectly.
Um, ok. Yeah, my posts were obsessive and hateful.
Obviously a "fanboy". Right? Ouch, it's really playing on my mind!

I looked back, and saw my point of view as being the one adding up wins and losses, facts and feats. Same way I would play a game of poker.

"Figures", in other words.

Then, funny thing is, I looked at what you wrote.
Dude, out of the too of us, you were the one describing the nature of "powers", trying to explain which power came from a greater source, as if they were "real".

Ya may want to take a look before you start talking fanboy, and accusing people of immersing themselves too far into the comic books they read.

Out of the too of our posts, yours is the one that eminates a strong feeling of "reverence" for the Champion.

And, also, you were the first to try and prove you intelligence, or should I say, appeared as a pseudo-intellectual, while showing us all your grasp of latin and debating skills.

Sorry bud. Ya got yerself a spanking. Then, instead of just trying to come up with some comic book factoids to prove yer point, you went and had to pull the old "Fanboy" card. Wow, calling names over something so silly.

Doesn't work. We can all smell that you are the guy wearing the super hero underwear.

Originally posted by The_Barbarian
And by that same logic -- Juggernaut has a '..terrible record -- period'


Juggernaut has a great record if you are going by his physical combatants. of coarse he is going to lose to a team who happens to have a telepath on hand. can you name the times when he lost any other way???


Originally posted by The_Barbarian
Using this logic, it would then be more logical for one to assume that the Juggernaut has the greater "lack of positive results" when compared to the Champion - seeing as how the former character, has had much more comic book appearances than the latter.


well, juggernaut is always brought down by the same thing... which would be telepathic assault. where as champion was brought down by what??? going by YOUR logic, juggernaut has the ability to wreck champion, where as champion regardless of fighting style, finesse or any other word you choose to describe it, cannot bring juggernaut down physically. period.


Originally posted by The_Barbarian
Your personal opinion of the Champion's "Suckiness" does not dismiss his overall ability and potential. That is the reason why we have these debates, which are predominantly based on a character's overall power and skill, rather than the outcomes of battles predetermined by sales and overall popularity of a character.


and your opinion means just as much. lets see champion take some reality shattering punches from juggernaut (which he has done on more than one occasion). if we are talking about overall power, juggernaut is powered by the very same bands that hold the entire 616 universe together...


Originally posted by The_Barbarian

Moreover, as it has already been stated to you above - by your logic, the Juggernaut has a much "Darker Cloud" hanging over him, since he has lost many more battles than the Champion.


where is your proof of this?? you seem more interested in trying to prove somebody wrong rather than actually debate... if you dont believe me please keep reading...

Originally posted by The_Barbarian
You cannot have it both ways -- either we compare the individuals on basis of comic book history, or we compare them on basis of powers and ability.

or you could do both??? in which case you are not doing EITHER.


Originally posted by The_Barbarian
History has shown us that Juggernaut has lost many more battles than the Champion.


well then by your logic above, you could devide those battles again. physically and mentally. juggernaut doesnt lose his physical battles. champion however, does.


Originally posted by The_Barbarian

From a power/ability stance, the Champion is capable of harnessing much more potential than Juggernaut. He receives his power from the residual energies of the big bang, which started all life within the universe. This includes life within the Crimson Cosmos.


well this was stated on panel, but never shown... however, juggernaut is driven by the energies that hold the universe together. hmmm, i'd say juggernaut has a hell of a lot of potential considering he was crushing entire dimensions with his power.


Originally posted by The_Barbarian
Additionally, the Champion cannot be killed until the universe ends, due to the Grandmaster's pact with Death. He also possesses thousands of years worth of fighting skill, and has defeated entire planets full of trained warriors.


which means what??? he has also lost to she hulk who trained for a short time for the up coming battle with champion. same she hulk tried to hit a half powered juggernaut and hurt her hand. the entire time, juggernaut standing there un moved, un phased with only a smirk on his face.

Originally posted by The_Barbarian
Furthermore, the only way the Juggernaut can win this battle, is if he somehow manages to molecularly disperse the Champion's physical form. You have yet to provide any evidence of him being capable of such an attack from a historical or power related perspective - and being as such, the credibility of your argument will continue to be severely lacking.


the only way champion has to win is if he does the same thing to juggernaut which... wont happen. even then, i'm not so sure. juggernaut has been stripped to the bone with NO ILL EFFECTS WHAT SO EVER. or if he telepathically assaults juggernaut. neither of which he has shown to do before.



furthermore, if you place juggernaut into the ring with champion from his original appearance, thing broke champs ribs. juggernaut has well above thing level strength and punching power. champ has been knocked unconsciouss by physical force several times, whereas classic juggernaut hasnt... if i'm not mistaken a knock out is counted as a win. in which case juggernaut is going to win this fight.

Originally posted by Horrificus
Um, ok. Yeah, my posts were obsessive and hateful.
Obviously a "fanboy". Right? Ouch, it's really playing on my mind!


You truly don't see how calling Champion "sucky", stating that he suffers from "burnout", and then proceeding to call a post that defends him "tripe" could be deemed "hateful"? Consider me surprised..

It's quite apparent that someone here is playing games, and it definitely is not I.

Originally posted by Horrificus
I looked back, and saw my point of view as being the one adding up wins and losses, facts and feats. Same way I would play a game of poker.

"Figures", in other words.


How many times must it be explained to you? An irrelevant argument or analogy cannot produce a valid conclusion.

It is considered a "Strawman", in other words.

Your analogous relationship of a "poker" game cannot prove your argument as it pertains to the topic of this thread, and commits the Logic Fallacy of the "Strawman." Once again, the initial topic is not about how well you "play a game of poker", but instead about who will win a fictional battle between the Champion and the Juggernaut.

Originally posted by Horrificus
Then, funny thing is, I looked at what you wrote.
Dude, out of the too of us, you were the one describing the nature of "powers", trying to explain which power came from a greater source, as if they were "real".


First, I am not your "dude."

Second, in order for one to argue that anything is "real" or not "real", they have to have authority within the presumed reality that they are judging. Clearly, you are not an editor, a writer, nor an artist over at Marvel, and do not understand the interworkings of their universe. So you have no ability to determine how reality works within it.

Originally posted by Horrificus
Ya may want to take a look before you start talking fanboy, and accusing people of immersing themselves too far into the comic books they read.

Out of the too of our posts, yours is the one that eminates a strong feeling of "reverence" for the Champion.


Says the pot to the kettle.

Originally posted by Horrificus
And, also, you were the first to try and prove you intelligence, or should I say, appeared as a pseudo-intellectual, while showing us all your grasp of latin and debating skills.


No one ever attempted to "prove" their "intelligence." Good attempt at trying to bate me with another strawman argument. I merely stated that this was my debate style, and it was you who ridiculed and labeled it as being silly, specifically my usage of "latin" and professional "debating skills" within a "comic book forum."

Originally posted by Horrificus
Sorry bud. Ya got yerself a spanking. Then, instead of just trying to come up with some comic book factoids to prove yer point, you went and had to pull the old "Fanboy" card. Wow, calling names over something so silly.

Doesn't work. We can all smell that you are the guy wearing the super hero underwear.


I do not wear underwear, and I don't know what you are trying to imply about my bodily odor - or what type of personal activities I like to engage in during my free time. Any more comments about either and you can consider yourself reported. banned

Horrificus is right : Champion sucks. His bio says he has millions of years of experience, but when he fights, he fights like a brawler : no fancy moves, nothing, just regular punches and kicks.

Champion is one of those characters whose feats and stats contradict each other. But only feats count, especially in this case.

It would be a cool fight, but Juggernaut wins. He won't feel Champions punches, or barely.

"I have known plenty of guys that were involved in martial arts, or wrestling or stuff like that for YEARS AND YEARS, AND were very very strong compared to opponents.

And, they would still lose all the time."

Wow, you must hang out with some real losers.

Originally posted by Kid Kurdy
Horrificus is right : Champion sucks. His bio says he has millions of years of experience, but when he fights, he fights like a brawler : no fancy moves, nothing, just regular punches and kicks.

Champion is one of those characters whose feats and stats contradict each other. But only feats count, especially in this case.

It would be a cool fight, but Juggernaut wins. He won't feel Champions punches, or barely.

I wonder why with all that experience Champion decides to be a brawler in his fights?

Been done, and i remember that in that thread Juggs was winning...ill still go with Juggs thou( personal opinion)

Originally posted by Mrrungo Mu
I wonder why with all that experience Champion decides to be a brawler in his fights?
Don't ask me, ask Champion. Or better, ask the writers.

Then again, you could say that about all of the Elders.

They definitely are not what you would expect a character to be with all of that experience and power.

I think, in the beginning, when they first started showing up in comics, they were more formidable. But, at some point, they started getting used to show how powerful other characters were, by getting slapped around.

Originally posted by Horrificus
I think, in the beginning, when they first started showing up in comics, they were more formidable. But, at some point, they started getting used to show how powerful other characters were, by getting slapped around.
Yeah something like that.

I hate it when the kiddos take a seventh grade logic class and think that because they learned a couple P's & Q's, and some fancy words, that they are some kind of master logician.

Originally posted by Mrrungo Mu
I wonder why with all that experience Champion decides to be a brawler in his fights?

Because not everyone is a characterless authority whore. Champion's limits and stipulations are self-imposed because of his personality. He is all about pride, honour and respect. He respects the limits of others, he respects the rules of the game and he admires a strong will. That's why he jobs to characters and still doesn't feel some petty need for revenge when he's defeated. That's not to say that there's absolutely no PIS involved (take the rib cracking thing in his first appearance, for example!), but that doesn't mean he would lose to everyone.

Originally posted by Dinalfos
Because not everyone is a characterless authority whore. Champion's limits and stipulations are self-imposed because of his personality. He is all about pride, honour and respect. He respects the limits of others, he respects the rules of the game and he admires a strong will. That's why he jobs to characters and still doesn't feel some petty need for revenge when he's defeated. That's not to say that there's absolutely no PIS involved (take the rib cracking thing in his first appearance, for example!), but that doesn't mean he would lose to everyone.

That is the best way anybody has ever put it.
Very true, and a good way to look at it.

Originally posted by Dinalfos
BThat's not to say that there's absolutely no PIS involved (take the rib cracking thing in his first appearance, for example!), but that doesn't mean he would lose to everyone.
But he would lose to Juggernaut. He can't hurt him. Juggernaut can.

Originally posted by Dinalfos
Because not everyone is a characterless authority whore. Champion's limits and stipulations are self-imposed because of his personality. He is all about pride, honour and respect. He respects the limits of others, he respects the rules of the game and he admires a strong will. That's why he jobs to characters and still doesn't feel some petty need for revenge when he's defeated. That's not to say that there's absolutely no PIS involved (take the rib cracking thing in his first appearance, for example!), but that doesn't mean he would lose to everyone.



how can PIS be involved in his FIRST APPEARANCE??? it doesnt contradict any previous appearances. in fact its what sets the standards. if anything, its what we should go by. the guy has great skill but low levels of durability. ha ha.

Originally posted by KillAll
how can PIS be involved in his FIRST APPEARANCE??? it doesnt contradict any previous appearances. in fact its what sets the standards. if anything, its what we should go by. the guy has great skill but low levels of durability. ha ha.

In retrospect, it's safe to say that it was PIS. But even in that very comic, it was kind of dubious. We learned that Champion was an immortal conquerer who had fought thousands of battles on many planets. He was clearly supposed to be a powerful guy with cosmic level powers. And anyone who has unlimited strength should not be affected that badly by a punch from Thing

Maybe Champion only fought pushovers... I wouldn't be surprised.

Originally posted by Kid Kurdy
But he would lose to Juggernaut. He can't hurt him. Juggernaut can.

He can't hurt Juggernaut, but he's not gonna lose. It's gonna be a technical stalemate, especially if Juggernaut is smart enough to put his shield up. Champion is stronger and a much better fighter, too.. He's not going to hold back against someone who cannot be destroyed or even knocked out. There will be no jobbing and downscaling against someone like that.

And for all we know, Champion is capable of overcoming Jugg's enchantment? Is there any way we can tell?

Wow, is Champion stronger than Juggernaut ? I wouldn't be so sure. I hate to sound like a Juggernaut fan - I am not - but Juggernaut is STRONG.

As far as I know, Juggernauts strength limit never has been reached. I don't remember him not being able to lift something or so, not even once.

Unless Champion has the power gem and uses it correctly. Otherwise, Juggernaut is at least as strong.

Originally posted by Kid Kurdy
Wow, is Champion stronger than Juggernaut ? I wouldn't be so sure. I hate to sound like a Juggernaut fan - I am not - but Juggernaut is STRONG.

As far as I know, Juggernauts strength limit never has been reached. I don't remember him not being able to lift something or so, not even once.

Unless Champion has the power gem and uses it correctly. Otherwise, Juggernaut is at least as strong.

Well, I was assuming Champ has the gem in this fight.

Originally posted by Kid Kurdy
Wow, is Champion stronger than Juggernaut ? I wouldn't be so sure. I hate to sound like a Juggernaut fan - I am not - but Juggernaut is STRONG.

As far as I know, Juggernauts strength limit never has been reached. I don't remember him not being able to lift something or so, not even once.

Unless Champion has the power gem and uses it correctly. Otherwise, Juggernaut is at least as strong.


Um people keep throwing Juggs strength around however he doesn't have any "great" strength feats.

Originally posted by KillAll
how can PIS be involved in his FIRST APPEARANCE??? it doesnt contradict any previous appearances. in fact its what sets the standards. if anything, its what we should go by. the guy has great skill but low levels of durability. ha ha.

Yup. That's what I meant when I said Champ had a "Glass Jaw".
He has tons of experience and power, yet he seems to get plugged on a fairly regular basis.

I guess we would have to compare who they have each lost to, and who they each have defeated.That would give us a good idea of what they can dish out, and what they can take.

So,:

Who has Juggernaut defeated, one on one?

Who has Juggernaut been defeated by, one on one?


Who has Champion defeated, one on one?

Who has Champion been defeated by, one on one?

The only time we know that Champion is able to overcome Juggs enchantment is when the hits start to take effect

champion>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>juggernaut in every, way, and form. the only thing that juggs has that cahmpion doesnt is the "once hes in motion nothing can stop him" thing. i mean to be honest im a juggernaut fan boy hes one of my favorite characters but the champion would kick his ass

according to showings.... above statement is false. if you can prove otherwise i'd like to see it.


the fan base here on the forum is leaning towards juggernaut, and he's proved more than capable of reality shattering/dimension crushing punches... i'd say more than capable of subdueing champion also.

Originally posted by Dinalfos
Well, I was assuming Champ has the gem in this fight. So that means that Champion has the gem right now in comics, right?
Champ gets crushed.

Originally posted by bigbran
So that means that Champion has the gem right now in comics, right?
Champ gets crushed.

Well, does he? I don't know

Originally posted by KillAll
according to showings.... above statement is false. if you can prove otherwise i'd like to see it.


the fan base here on the forum is leaning towards juggernaut, and he's proved more than capable of reality shattering/dimension crushing punches... i'd say more than capable of subdueing champion also.

Originally posted by The_Barbarian
Congratulations on committing the Logic Fallacy of the Appeal to Ridicule and the Fallacy of the Strawman...

To admonish and make fun of one's style of debate in relation to a "Comic Book Forum", does not support the validity of one's argument.

Moreover, this argument does not have any relevancy to the main argument being presented in this thread.




And by that same logic -- Juggernaut has a '..terrible record -- period'



Let us presume that you are correct, and that lack of positive results -- does indeed equate to who will be the victor of this battle.

Using this logic, it would then be more logical for one to assume that the Juggernaut has the greater "lack of positive results" when compared to the Champion - seeing as how the former character, has had much more comic book appearances than the latter.



Your personal opinion of the Champion's "Suckiness" does not dismiss his overall ability and potential. That is the reason why we have these debates, which are predominantly based on a character's overall power and skill, rather than the outcomes of battles predetermined by sales and overall popularity of a character.

Moreover, as it has already been stated to you above - by your logic, the Juggernaut has a much "Darker Cloud" hanging over him, since he has lost many more battles than the Champion.



You cannot have it both ways -- either we compare the individuals on basis of comic book history, or we compare them on basis of powers and ability.

History has shown us that Juggernaut has lost many more battles than the Champion.

From a power/ability stance, the Champion is capable of harnessing much more potential than Juggernaut. He receives his power from the residual energies of the big bang, which started all life within the universe. This includes life within the Crimson Cosmos.

Additionally, the Champion cannot be killed until the universe ends, due to the Grandmaster's pact with Death. He also possesses thousands of years worth of fighting skill, and has defeated entire planets full of trained warriors.

Furthermore, the only way the Juggernaut can win this battle, is if he somehow manages to molecularly disperse the Champion's physical form. You have yet to provide any evidence of him being capable of such an attack from a historical or power related perspective - and being as such, the credibility of your argument will continue to be severely lacking.

Heh..Heh..Heh.

Is it just me, or has someone taken his love for comic books, 80's cartoons, philosophy, and own opinion a little bit too far?

That, AND somebody was just an idiot! hehe.

this is champions power

Height: 9 ft. 2 in.
Weight: 5,050 lbs.
Eyes: Silver
Hair: Red

Strength Level: The limits of the Champion's strength are not known. In Earth's gravity, he can lift (press) at least 100 tons. His strength derives from the channeling of cosmic energy for physical use.

Known Superhuman Powers: The Champion controls the power primordial, the energy derived from the Big Bang itself. He has channeled this power into the development of his physical form: his musculature, his reflexes, his stamina, and his strength, while the exercise of human strength taps electro-chemical energies of the complex molecules in the body, the Champion's strength taps cosmic nuclear energies. His physical strength is only determined by the amount of cosmic energy his finite form can contain. This limit has yet to be seen. He apparently never tires since his body has the ability to tap whatever energies it needs to recuperate. He cannot be hurt by any means short of molecular dispersion. Having channeled all of the cosmic energy as his command into making his body a perfect fighting machine, the Champion can no longer direct that energy from his body into force-blast as many other energy manipulators can.

Abilities: The Champion has mastered untold thousands of different martial arts and fighting styles culled from across the known Universe, and spends the majority of his time between championship matches practicing these arts.

Limitation: The Champion's limitations are not known.

heres juggernaut powers

Height: 6 ft. 10 in.
Weight: 900 lbs.
Eyes: Blue
Here: red brown

Strength Level: The Juggernaut possesses Class 100 strength, enabling him to lift (press) over 100 tons. The Juggernaut is said to be unstoppable, and the upper limit to his strength is not known.

Known Superhuman Powers: The Juggernaut possesses untold power, mystical in nature, which enhances his strength to an as yet unknown degree and makes him a seemingly irresistible, unstoppable being. Once he begins to walk in a certain direction, no obstacle or force on Earth has been observed to be able to stop him. Apparently, only he can stop himself. Some obstacles (many tons of rock, for example) or forces (such as plasma-discharge cannons) may slow his pace considerably, but nothing has yet stopped him permanently from advancing.

Besides giving him vast superhuman strength, the mystical energy of Cyttorak gives the Juggernaut an extraordinary degree of resistance to all forms of injury. The Juggernaut can shield himself even further from injury by mentally surrounding himself with a force field. Enveloped by his force field, the Juggernaut has survived the fiery explosion of a truck transporting a huge quantity of oil without any injury whatsoever. The Juggernaut can survive indefinitely without food, water, or oxygen. He is sustained by his mystical energies alone.

In the past the Juggernaut has temporarily possessed telepathic abilities and certain mystical powers, all of which he has since lost.

Originally posted by carver9
this is champions power
Height: 9 ft. 2 in.
Weight: 5,050 lbs.
Eyes: Silver
Hair: Red
Strength Level: The limits of the Champion's strength are not known. In Earth's gravity, he can lift (press) at least 100 tons. His strength derives from the channeling of cosmic energy for physical use.
Known Superhuman Powers: The Champion controls the power primordial, the energy derived from the Big Bang itself. He has channeled this power into the development of his physical form: his musculature, his reflexes, his stamina, and his strength, while the exercise of human strength taps electro-chemical energies of the complex molecules in the body, the Champion's strength taps cosmic nuclear energies. His physical strength is only determined by the amount of cosmic energy his finite form can contain. This limit has yet to be seen. He apparently never tires since his body has the ability to tap whatever energies it needs to recuperate. He cannot be hurt by any means short of molecular dispersion. Having channeled all of the cosmic energy as his command into making his body a perfect fighting machine, the Champion can no longer direct that energy from his body into force-blast as many other energy manipulators can.
Abilities: The Champion has mastered untold thousands of different martial arts and fighting styles culled from across the known Universe, and spends the majority of his time between championship matches practicing these arts.
Limitation: The Champion's limitations are not known.
Um... I know his limits. They are, to name a few:
1. She Hulk
2. Silver Surfer
3. Thing's Fists
4. Teenage Mutants with mediocre powers
5. In Billions of years, he hasn't been able to figure out that it is bad to be stranded in space, and should have flight capabilities. -a la Thanos

Originally posted by Dinalfos
Well, does he? I don't know No.