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This is not much of a versus thread, however like the title suggests, this thread is about how "powerful" Marka Ragnos is. So I guess it's about the VS. strength of Marka. Many people put Ragnos as the second most powerful Sith Lord or in the top five.

My question is Ragnos really that powerful? I do not know much about ths Sith Lord except he was the evil spirit in Jedi Academy. And is Ragnos deserving to be the second or one of the strongest Sith ever?

Please discuss.

I believe he's about as powerful as Sidious but that isn't saying much. They're both weak.

Wow. You don't know anything about SW, it seems.

And PK, this topic should help.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=412445&highlight=title%3A%28antithesis+ragnos%29

That Ragnos is more powerful than Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh means that he's certainly up there. However, nothing about him as far as his powers are concerned has been released. I don't believe he's as powerful as the 'old crew' used to think, but I'm sure he's one of the most powerful.

I'd say, though, that LotF/NJO Luke, Emperor Palpatine, and Yoda are all above him. I'd also put Jacen, Kyp, Mace Windu, Exar Kun, Bane, and Revan near/on par/above him as well.

Ragnos, right now, is what Escape said. His potential power well exceeds everyone else, though.

Originally posted by Escape81
That Ragnos is more powerful than Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh means that he's certainly up there. However, nothing about him as far as his powers are concerned has been released. I don't believe he's as powerful as the 'old crew' used to think, but I'm sure he's one of the most powerful.

I'd say, though, that LotF/NJO Luke, Emperor Palpatine, and Yoda are all above him. I'd also put Jacen, Kyp, Mace Windu, Exar Kun, Bane, and Revan near/on par/above him as well.

WHile I completely disagree with Escape, I would only put Sidious above him JUST because the text says so, and only Luke above him as a Jedi.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
WHile I completely disagree with Escape, I would only put Sidious above him JUST because the text says so, and only Luke above him as a Jedi.

Elaborate, DS. Why do you disagree with me?

Originally posted by Escape81
Elaborate, DS. Why do you disagree with me?


Because Ragnos was the most powerful of the ancient sith. Because it's clear that he knew certain techniques such as the Nihilus' force drain, and had a frightening grasp of the dark side. Besides there's little evidence of anyone being more powerful than the ancient sith(mainly him), with the exception of Palpatine.

Why is he the most powerful of the Ancient Sith? Source and context if available please.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Why is he the most powerful of the Ancient Sith? Source and context if available please.

He ruled the Sith for 100 years without a challenger. Naga, who probably came the closest to taking out the Republic by brute force, was deftly scared of him. He didn't challenge his position till the very end of Ragnos.

Little evidence of anyone being more powerful than the Ancient Sith?

Very interesting.

Naga Sadow was forced to rely on technological trinkets to hold any considerable power. His ship was the amplification for his Force powers. It allowed him to perform all of his nifty feats. His sheer personal power may very well be pathetic.

Kressh is supposed to be equal to Sadow, so that puts him in the same boat.

We've seen weaklings use devices of the Ancient Sith to perform anything noteworthy.

Ragnos's power is unknown. As I told you before. Evidence shows us that the Ancient Sith used this technology and these artifacts because they could not do it themselves. Sadow couldn't perform his feats without his ships; he could not generate amulet blasts without the amulet in question; and it is very, very possible that Ragnos required his staff to perform the drain.

Compare him to Palpatine:

- Palpatine's Dark side energies were so intense that they were literally ravaging his entire body. When have we ever seen such a display of power in the dark side?

- Palpatine's raw command of the dark side required that he drain the life energy from Byss to sustain his own.

- The Visual Guide confirms that in Sithisis, Palpatine used his arcane knowledge of the Force and Dark Side rituals increased his power, and sent waves of anxiety and ripples in the Force felt by all Jedi, throughout the war, which helped to weaken them.

- Palpatine accumulated more Sith/dark side knowledge than any Sith before him.

- His fight with Luke generated such intense waves of energy that it killed bystanders.

This and more. From what we know, Palpatine's raw power far exceeds any Ancient Sith - including Ragnos.

Then, you have Luke - who is more powerful than Palpatine himself - and Jacen, who rivals Luke. And Yoda, who was the most powerful Jedi bar Luke.

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
He ruled the Sith for 100 years without a challenger. Naga, who probably came the closest to taking out the Republic by brute force, was deftly scared of him. He didn't challenge his position till the very end of Ragnos.

Kaan ruled the Sith and no one challenged him, even though it was clear some Masters didn't like him...

Originally posted by Escape81
Little evidence of anyone being more powerful than the Ancient Sith?

Very interesting.

Naga Sadow was forced to rely on technological trinkets to hold any considerable power. His ship was the amplification for his Force powers. It allowed him to perform all of his nifty feats. His sheer personal power may very well be pathetic.

Kressh is supposed to be equal to Sadow, so that puts him in the same boat.

We've seen weaklings use devices of the Ancient Sith to perform anything noteworthy.

Ragnos's power is unknown. As I told you before. Evidence shows us that the Ancient Sith used this technology and these artifacts because they could not do it themselves. Sadow couldn't perform his feats without his ships; he could not generate amulet blasts without the amulet in question; and it is very, very possible that Ragnos required his staff to perform the drain.

Compare him to Palpatine:

- Palpatine's Dark side energies were so intense that they were literally ravaging his entire body. When have we ever seen such a display of power in the dark side?

- Palpatine's raw command of the dark side required that he drain the life energy from Byss to sustain his own.

- The Visual Guide confirms that in Sithisis, Palpatine used his arcane knowledge of the Force and Dark Side rituals increased his power, and sent waves of anxiety and ripples in the Force felt by all Jedi, throughout the war, which helped to weaken them.

- Palpatine accumulated more Sith/dark side knowledge than any Sith before him.

- His fight with Luke generated such intense waves of energy that it killed bystanders.

This and more. From what we know, Palpatine's raw power far exceeds any Ancient Sith - including Ragnos.

Then, you have Luke - who is more powerful than Palpatine himself - and Jacen, who rivals Luke. And Yoda, who was the most powerful Jedi bar Luke.

We've discussed this before. The powers they use as a result of artifacts aren't repeated by anybody WITHOUT those artifacts, therefore it doesn't make them seem weaker. The ancient sith era was the pinnacle of sith/darkside knowledge, otherwise every single sith that wants to multiply his power, wouldn't go to the ancient siht.

You miss the point entirely.

The Ancient Sith relied on technology. Why? Considering what evidence we have, it is likely to compensate for a lack of personal power. Take Sadow's technology away, what does he have left?

Nothing.

Luke and Palpatine are capable of generating massive attacks without the aid of technology. Thus, their feats are far more impressive.

Now, care to speculate if Palpatine or Luke had or wanted to use Ancient Sith technology? What kind've power they'd wield?

Palpatine's raw power far outstrips the Ancient Sith's. And Luke's raw power outstrips Palpatine's.

Originally posted by Escape81
You miss the point entirely.

The Ancient Sith relied on technology. Why? Considering what evidence we have, it is likely to compensate for a lack of personal power. Take Sadow's technology away, what does he have left?
You are saying that because they performed feat X with artifacts, they are somehow less than somebody else. Take Ragnos' scepter for instance. You are saying because he has one, it's unlikely that he knew the technique himself or was able to perform it, yet we know Nihilus learned the technique from an ancient sith storehouse. So it's more than likely Ragnos not only KNEW the technique, but created a scepter that would be easier to use for the technique. Hence his "Frightening grasp of the darkside".



And this is why Luke is #1 in all of SW, and Sidious is the #1 Sith. Nobody is arguing that.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Kaan ruled the Sith and no one challenged him, even though it was clear some Masters didn't like him...

Different philosophies. Ragnos lived in a time where 'rebellion and civil war were common', where 'the strongest ruled' and he was able to maintain the title of dark lord of the sith for centuries and die a natural death. Noone could do anything about it, Simus tried but ended up decapitated, Sadow clearly hated him so if he were to have been more powerful, he would have killed him.

Not mentioning the fact that Kaan could well have been the most powerful with the exception of Bane, he ruled as a leader in a completely different time with completely different philosophies. 'Everyone was equel' in the BoD, Kaan's talent for being able to inspire his peers ensured that they all believed that him leading them, and what they were doing as a whole was good for the BoD. So basically, he lived in a time where everyone believed that Kaan was best suited for leadership, and all believed that he was doing what was best for the BoD.

No. I am saying that someone who relies on technology or something else for the source of their power is weaker than someone who relies on nothing, and can perform feats on par with them.

Sadow required his technology to perform his feats. Thus, in natural, raw power, the likes of Luke and Sidious are far above him. I consider them more powerful, and by quite a bit.

Ragnos is weaker than Luke or Sidious, because, from what we know, he was the same way. If he were so powerful, DS, why couldn't he have done without the scepter? Given the pragmatism that the Ancient Sith seemed to have, and the fact that the scepter was a powerful weapon, it is highly unlikely that Ragnos just used the damn thing unless he could not perform the technique without it or he couldn't perform it nearly as easily without it, meaning Nihilus's affinity for draining things supercedes his, as Nihilus and Palpatine didn't require technological toys, and yet Nihilus's drain is immense - and Sidious's powers and feats far outstrip any of the Ancient Sith, and so does his raw power.

Conclusion: Because most of them relied on technology to perform considerable feats, they do not compare to the natural power of someone like Luke or Palpatine. If they were to fight, and Sadow didn't have his technology or didn't have time to prepare, and it was a simple-fashioned fight to the death, arena style, Sadow would be obliterated.

Ragnos, again, is also considerably lesser than either Luke or Palpatine at this juncture, because his only claim to fame was performed in the presence of a handy-handy scepter. When he can perform all that Luke and Palpatine has done, without the presence of a technological toy, then I will take some of your beliefs seriously.

In the meantime, don't bother.



You said you put Luke above him as a Jedi, and Palpatine is number one in the Sith category only because "the text says so".

Luke's achievements don't need to be mentioned here. He is more powerful than Palpatine. I mentioned Palpatine's displays of power, and I think it is quite clear that it is above and beyond anything Ragnos or another Sith has displayed.

But Escape, Luke was always powered by the Kaibur Chrystal, so the same can be said about him.

Originally posted by Escape81
No. I am saying that someone who relies on technology or something else for the source of their power is weaker than someone who relies on nothing, and can perform feats on par with them.

Sadow required his technology to perform his feats. Thus, in natural, raw power, the likes of Luke and Sidious are far above him. I consider them more powerful, and by quite a bit.

Ragnos is weaker than Luke or Sidious, because, from what we know, he was the same way. If he were so powerful, DS, why couldn't he have done without the scepter? Given the pragmatism that the Ancient Sith seemed to have, and the fact that the scepter was a powerful weapon, it is highly unlikely that Ragnos just used the damn thing unless he could not perform the technique without it or he couldn't perform it nearly as easily without it, meaning Nihilus's affinity for draining things supercedes his, as Nihilus and Palpatine didn't require technological toys, and yet Nihilus's drain is immense - and Sidious's powers and feats far outstrip any of the Ancient Sith, and so does his raw power.

Conclusion: Because most of them relied on technology to perform considerable feats, they do not compare to the natural power of someone like Luke or Palpatine. If they were to fight, and Sadow didn't have his technology or didn't have time to prepare, and it was a simple-fashioned fight to the death, arena style, Sadow would be obliterated.

Ragnos, again, is also considerably lesser than either Luke or Palpatine at this juncture, because his only claim to fame was performed in the presence of a handy-handy scepter. When he can perform all that Luke and Palpatine has done, without the presence of a technological toy, then I will take some of your beliefs seriously.

In the meantime, don't bother.



You said you put Luke above him as a Jedi, and Palpatine is number one in the Sith category only because "the text says so".

Luke's achievements don't need to be mentioned here. He is more powerful than Palpatine. I mentioned Palpatine's displays of power, and I think it is quite clear that it is above and beyond anything Ragnos or another Sith has displayed.


Well just because he holds a scepter doesnt mean he uses it, he could have built it long ago so that when he dies, his "followers" could drain the force and then release it into his dead body bringing him back from the dead, Just a theory thought

And by the way, Luke skywalker feared the return of ragnos, he himself stated that he might not be able to take him down alone. He said "theres no telling what ragnos might do, it will take all our effort to stop him"

And by JA he could take DE sidious alone because his mastery of the force greatly surpasses that when he is in DE. He has learnt so much more, Also lets not forget he was suprised when he found out the force could be drained

This gives us a very very small idea of how powerful ragnos might be, And luke does his research well, He must have known how powerful ragnos was 5000 years ago, then why would he fear his return?

Nice theory. Nothing to support it, but you never know.



Incorrect.

Luke had no idea what power Ragnos possessed. That is why he decided to put all of his efforts into stopping him. He was concerned about the unknown. He had absolutely no idea what Ragnos was capable of.

And, pardon me, but wasn't Ragnos's spirit dispelled by an "above average" Jedi Knight, singlehandedly?



No offense, but you're pulling stuff out of your ass here.

Jedi Academy is set only a few years after the events of Dark Empire. Considering how DE Luke was unable to defeat Palpatine on his own, there's nothing to state that he could do it as of Jedia Academy.

@Dessel:


I beg your pardon? Do you read Supershadow...?

The Ancient Sith have incredible alchemy and technology, but, other than that, Sadow had to put on his mean face to throw one brick that managed to daze Ludo for a short period of time. Now that's raw power!

Chosen One material, right?

Does this matter, so what if they relied on technology, it's not like they wouldn't have access to their technology in a vs. fight situation. And it can just as easily be said that Luke relied on the Kaibur Chrystal to perform all the stuff he does, but does this take anything away from him? No.

First, understand that we are arguing power. Jollyjim here hit the nail on the head nicely. Without his technology, Sadow's biggest feat of power has been hurling a brick. The benefits of Sith technology do not equate to power. These Ancient Sith lack the power of a Luke Skywalker or an Emperor Palpatine. A case can be made for Jacen Solo, Yoda, Kyp Durron, Mace Windu, Count Dooku, Exar Kun, Darth Revan, and Darth Bane.

The concluding point in that is that nothing indicates that these Ancient Sith were actually strong in the Force at all.

Oh, I know that Ragnos's power was described as "frightening". But that was from a fallible third-party source who was not present to ever witness Ragnos (Kreia). And, it could mean that his powers were frightening compared to the Ancient Sith themselves.

Which means, what? He can toss two bricks?

Second, if someone were to arrange a versus thread without the aid of any technology, which would include amulets, ships, meditation spheres, lightsabers, swords, armor, or orbalisks, I'd say that the Ancient Sith would bite the big one against anyone truly skilled.



Luke does not use the Kaibur Crystal. I'm not sure if that's even canon (Splinter of the Mind's Eye), and I know that Supershadow related articles mean jack in terms of canonicity.

I'd like proof of this Kaibur crystal stuff. Luke never carried it around again

Ultimate visual Guide has it as canon, but, it says : "Luke eventually discovers that the crystals power decreases in direct proportion to its distance from the temple of Pomojema."

Basically, if you hyperdrive away, it doesn't do anything.

Edit: Also, like LS said, he is never seen carrying it around.

Luke also kept it in the Temple on Yavin. He put the fragment he kept in a lightsaber he used to fight Lumiya, which was lost

Originally posted by Escape81
No. I am saying that someone who relies on technology or something else for the source of their power is weaker than someone who relies on nothing, and can perform feats on par with them.

Sadow required his technology to perform his feats. Thus, in natural, raw power, the likes of Luke and Sidious are far above him. I consider them more powerful, and by quite a bit.

Ragnos is weaker than Luke or Sidious, because, from what we know, he was the same way. If he were so powerful, DS, why couldn't he have done without the scepter? Given the pragmatism that the Ancient Sith seemed to have, and the fact that the scepter was a powerful weapon, it is highly unlikely that Ragnos just used the damn thing unless he could not perform the technique without it or he couldn't perform it nearly as easily without it, meaning Nihilus's affinity for draining things supercedes his, as Nihilus and Palpatine didn't require technological toys, and yet Nihilus's drain is immense - and Sidious's powers and feats far outstrip any of the Ancient Sith, and so does his raw power.

Conclusion: Because most of them relied on technology to perform considerable feats, they do not compare to the natural power of someone like Luke or Palpatine. If they were to fight, and Sadow didn't have his technology or didn't have time to prepare, and it was a simple-fashioned fight to the death, arena style, Sadow would be obliterated.

Ragnos, again, is also considerably lesser than either Luke or Palpatine at this juncture, because his only claim to fame was performed in the presence of a handy-handy scepter. When he can perform all that Luke and Palpatine has done, without the presence of a technological toy, then I will take some of your beliefs seriously.

In the meantime, don't bother.



You said you put Luke above him as a Jedi, and Palpatine is number one in the Sith category only because "the text says so".

Luke's achievements don't need to be mentioned here. He is more powerful than Palpatine. I mentioned Palpatine's displays of power, and I think it is quite clear that it is above and beyond anything Ragnos or another Sith has displayed.

#1. I only said I put SIDIOUS above Ragnos because of text. Luke is clearly #1 in the star wars universe.
#2. I think you should read Nai's theory on the ancient sith, it seems very logical and can be used in a debate.
#3. I think many people fail to realize that the ancient sith didn't just make artifacts to augment their power. As always, their era was the pinnacle of sith knowledge/sith alchemy. If it wasn't, why do all the powerful sith come to them for training and guidance? Anyways they specialized in MPT(Multi purpose tools). You're saying "Oh, because he built a scepter he couldn't use the ability by himself. I'm saying he built the scepter because not only was it easier, but the scepter was used as a multi purpose tool(his sith sword was inside). Naga Sadow's amulets were used to channel rage AND pass down history. His talismans were used to do the same. I don't know how you can deny that the golden age of of the sith was THE pinnacle of sith power/knowledge/alchemy. I don't know how you can say that "Oh they made artifacts because they didn't know the techniques themselves", when people such as Nihilus and Traya learn these techniques from ancient sith storehouses. I guarantee you it's a LOT easier to point a scepter or amulet and let it do the work as opposed to you using the ability and draining yourself. For instance you saw what happened to Luke when he tried creating an illusion. Sadow created whole armies without any problems whatsoever. Again, I find it preposterous when people say "Well they created these things because they couldn't do it themselves". It's not logical at all.

So, if Sadow could rip cores out of suns, why did he only throw a brick at Kresh when it is clearly stated (in text) that they want to kill each other? If he was so powerful, why not just disintegrate him or something instead of throwing a brick that barely dazed Ludo?

They were in a duel, it would be hard for him to unleash his full capabilities with the force while concentrating in his duel. And 1 thing, where's the proof that the amulets increase their power, all I've come across is that the amulets focus their power, not increase it.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
So, if Sadow could rip cores out of suns, why did he only throw a brick at Kresh when it is clearly stated (in text) that they want to kill each other? If he was so powerful, why not just disintegrate him or something instead of throwing a brick that barely dazed Ludo?

Has it ever occured to you that the reason he didn't do that, and the reason that he didnt just use his amulet, was that the ancient sith had a defense for it?They created it, they MUST have created a defense, otherwise everyone would be blasting everybody else.

Or not.

Everyone uses guns and missles in the real world, yet no one has yet to survive being hit directly with a missle. Their's no on-the-spot defense for it.

No. If Ludo couldn't protect himself from a brick, there's no way he could protect himself from an amulet blast. Unless you're proposing that Sadow created a weapon that Sith (or force users, even) are naturally immune to on purpose...

Maybe it couldn't be used on force sensitives, and he kept it around to keep the slaves in line (or Sith Wyrms). Maybe he just couldn't make an amulet powerful enough to have an effect of force-sensitives. I mean, when Exar used Sadows' magic to freeze the Senate, all the Jedi were un-phased...

Originally posted by jollyjim311
No. If Ludo couldn't protect himself from a brick, there's no way he could protect himself from an amulet blast. Unless you're proposing that Sadow created a weapon that Sith (or force users, even) are naturally immune to on purpose...
What are you talking about? Sidious couldn't protect himself from a force push, but he laid the smack down on everybody. What's your point?



The sith spell was nothing more than a stasis field. As for the amulet blast, the blast itself isn't force oriented. It's a blast that increases in power with anger. Meaning it has no limits. It's not a blast that can be absorbed unless you can prove it.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
What are you talking about? Sidious couldn't protect himself from a force push, but he laid the smack down on everybody. What's your point?



The sith spell was nothing more than a stasis field. As for the amulet blast, the blast itself isn't force oriented. It's a blast that increases in power with anger. Meaning it has no limits. It's not a blast that can be absorbed unless you can prove it.

Yoda caught him off guard. That's what happened to Ludo too. Now, instead of throwing a brick, wouldn't it make more sense to use an amulet blast to wipe out Ludo than a simple brick. If Ludo couldn't put up a defence for a brick, then, there's no way he could block an amulet blast. Unless Ludo was immune (there's a huge difference between immune and having a defence) due to him being force sensitive.


Maybe it just multiplies your hatred, so, when using the dark side, you become more powerful. It has no actual powers, but, it makes all of yours stronger. In that case, Sadow was already using the amulet when throwing the brick. There is no "Amulet blast". It's just a force push, that is amplified by hatred, due to the amulet.

JollyJim what are you talking about? Have you even read TOTJ, because your post displays clear msunderstandings of how things work in them.

Once again, DS, there is nothing that you have submitted that the Ancient Sith (including Ragnos) have anything near the raw power that Luke or Palpatine have.

Nothing at all.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Yoda caught him off guard. That's what happened to Ludo too. Now, instead of throwing a brick, wouldn't it make more sense to use an amulet blast to wipe out Ludo than a simple brick. If Ludo couldn't put up a defence for a brick, then, there's no way he could block an amulet blast. Unless Ludo was immune (there's a huge difference between immune and having a defence) due to him being force sensitive.
So if Ludo was caught by surprise with attack X, he can't block attack Y? Have you ever wondered why NOBODY who possessed the amulet ever used it in a fight? The power of the amulet makes it difficult to control, so if someone relies on it in a fight, they'll get sliced by a sith sword or a saber. You saying because Ludo can't block a brick he can't block a blast is ridiculous, because we saw Yoda get shitkicked with force lightning, and the next time he absorbed it. Maybe that's not a good example because its the same attack but my point is, don't make assumptions you can't back up.



Sadow wasn't using the amulet. We've never seen him use the amulet which leads me to believe the ancient sith had a defense for every technique they developed, which is quite logical.

Originally posted by Escape81
Once again, DS, there is nothing that you have submitted that the Ancient Sith (including Ragnos) have anything near the raw power that Luke or Palpatine have.

Nothing at all.


Why do you insist on arguing this when I'm not?

Originally posted by Escape81
Once again, DS, there is nothing that you have submitted that the Ancient Sith (including Ragnos) have anything near the raw power that Luke or Palpatine have.

Nothing at all.

Aren't the amulets said to only focus their raw power, not increase it?

I am arguing it because you continue to interject your opinion. Your unwillingness to argue is because you know you don't have anything that can change the debate to your favor.

Luke is superior to all of the Ancient Sith, you have consented this, so we need not debate about it. But the subject of Palpatine remains open. He is stronger than they are, not just because of a quote, but because he has exhibited a far deeper strength in the Force.

The Visual Guides confirm that he dedicated himself completely to studying the Dark Side. The dark side of the Force was so strong in him that it was decaying his body, and he was forced to drain the energy from Byss to sustain his evil. His clones, likewise, could not handle his intense power - which is why he regularly switched his essence.

It is quite clear. In raw power, Sidious is easily above all of the Ancient Sith.

If you disagree, that is your prerogative. But, until you can provide evidence that says likewise, the argument is in my favor.

The dark side of the Force was so strong in him that it was decaying his bodyquote]

Well there are two actual ways of looking at this:
1. Sidious was so strong in the dark side that it was decaying his body.
2. Sidious' will wasn't strong enough for him to maintain the dark side energies he was giving off.

Originally posted by Escape81
I am arguing it because you continue to interject your opinion. Your unwillingness to argue is because you know you don't have anything that can change the debate to your favor.

Luke is superior to all of the Ancient Sith, you have consented this, so we need not debate about it. But the subject of Palpatine remains open. He is stronger than they are, not just because of a quote, but because he has exhibited a far deeper strength in the Force.
I was referring to ROTS Sidious, when the quote was made. DE Sidious is a given.

The Visual Guides confirm that he dedicated himself completely to studying the Dark Side. The dark side of the Force was so strong in him that it was decaying his body, and he was forced to drain the energy from Byss to sustain his evil. His clones, likewise, could not handle his intense power - which is why he regularly switched his essence.

It is quite clear. In raw power, Sidious is easily above all of the Ancient Sith.

If you disagree, that is your prerogative. But, until you can provide evidence that says likewise, the argument is in my favor.

And as I've stated before, the ancient sith are above everyone but Sidious and Luke, yet even Sidious goes to them to learn and to get their advice.

Since when are the Ancient Sith above everyone? Are they above Odan-urr and the Four Jedi who pretty much defeated their Coruscant force?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Since when are the Ancient Sith above everyone? Are they above Odan-urr and the Four Jedi who pretty much defeated their Coruscant force?

Uh yea, Ragnos and Sadow are above the 4 jedi that defeated their forces. Stop playing dumb lightsnake, when we mention ancient sith it's usually the 4 most powerful sith, and possibly the first ones including Ajunta Pall.

*puts Sidious above them all*

Originally posted by Dessel


No, there is only one way to look at it. When did will power have any measure of one's raw power? Please. Anakin's raw command of the Force is the greatest we've seen, and his will isn't exactly record breaking or absolute.

I'm also curious as to how the biological effects that the dark side had on Palpatine can be traced back to his will power. Given that Palpatine's greatest skill is not his extreme command of the dark side, but his immense intellect and brilliant mind - I fail to see how he could lack a strong will at all.

Especially when he was forced to shield his immense power and hatred for decades from the Jedi. That, to me, speaks of strong will. As well as his Force Storm technique required use of strong will as well.

One way to look at it. Palpatine's raw command of the dark side, and his deep practice of dark side techniques simply was too powerful for his body to contain.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
So if Ludo was caught by surprise with attack X, he can't block attack Y? Have you ever wondered why NOBODY who possessed the amulet ever used it in a fight? The power of the amulet makes it difficult to control, so if someone relies on it in a fight, they'll get sliced by a sith sword or a saber. You saying because Ludo can't block a brick he can't block a blast is ridiculous, because we saw Yoda get shitkicked with force lightning, and the next time he absorbed it. Maybe that's not a good example because its the same attack but my point is, don't make assumptions you can't back up.



Sadow wasn't using the amulet. We've never seen him use the amulet which leads me to believe the ancient sith had a defense for every technique they developed, which is quite logical.

Okay, just listen to me, and make sense of it however you want. Ludo could, under normal circumstances, block that brick with the force, right? The reason he couldn't was because he got caught off guard. Now, in a fight to the death, what will do more damage, a brick, or a huge amulet blast? Even if Ludo had a defence against the blast, he wouldn't have gotten it up in time (seeing as how he couldn't get his defence for the brick up). It would make sense that the amulet blasts don't effect force users, because neither did that Sith spell of his that Exar later used. Unless Naga made a device that wouldn't work against a defenceless Sith on purpose...

It could simply be that the force blasts don't effect force users, but the amulet still increases your power in the dark side (by increasing your rage).
I figured this may be brought up (plus I don't want to ignore things just to try and prove a point):When Exar Kun used the amulet against Nadd's spirit, he wasn't necessarily using a blast (it would most likely pass through him anyway), but due to the amulet increasing his hatred (and thus power), he now was strong enough to take action against him.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Okay, just listen to me, and make sense of it however you want. Ludo could, under normal circumstances, block that brick with the force, right? The reason he couldn't was because he got caught off guard. Now, in a fight to the death, what will do more damage, a brick, or a huge amulet blast? Even if Ludo had a defence against the blast, he wouldn't have gotten it up in time (seeing as how he couldn't get his defence for the brick up). It would make sense that the amulet blasts don't effect force users, because neither did that Sith spell of his that Exar later used. Unless Naga made a device that wouldn't work against a defenceless Sith on purpose...
And I'm explaining it to you once again. The most likely reason for the ancient sith not going around blasting their amulets is that there was a defense for it developed by them. It makes absolutely NO sense whatsoever to say the amulet blast doesn't affect force users. The blast itself is tangible, and therefore will affect anything in its path, regardless of your potential in the force. And the stasis field not working on Jedi simply implies that the Jedi had strong enough minds to resist the spell.



Once again, the blast itself is tangible and affects anybody in its path. The only different between it and the blast of the AT-AT, is that it has no limits to its powers. It's based purely on the rage of the user.

You're either not getting what I'm saying or refusing to try and make sense of it.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
You're either not getting what I'm saying or refusing to try and make sense of it.

apparently im not getting what you're saying. You're saying that if he can't block a brick, then he definitely can't block an amulet blast. I'm saying he got caught off guard with the brick, and he has a defense for the amulet blasts. Ever wonder why he and Sadow wore two amulets? hm?

They're used on Massassi; if I remember correctly. Massassi are force users, and the blast works on them.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
apparently im not getting what you're saying. You're saying that if he can't block a brick, then he definitely can't block an amulet blast. I'm saying he got caught off guard with the brick, and he has a defense for the amulet blasts. Ever wonder why he and Sadow wore two amulets? hm?

A defence. Not an immunity. He didn't have time to put up a defence, seeing as how if he did, he wouldn't have been hit by the brick.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
A defence. Not an immunity. He didn't have time to put up a defence, seeing as how if he did, he wouldn't have been hit by the brick.

Ok so what is your point? The brick was a result of a force maneuver. What are you saying?

No. I am saying that someone who relies on technology or something else for the source of their power is weaker than someone who relies on nothing, and can perform feats on par with them.

Sadow required his technology to perform his feats. Thus, in natural, raw power, the likes of Luke and Sidious are far above him. I consider them more powerful, and by quite a bit.

That is not the point for VS. threads though. EVERYONE relies on something else for their power, the Ancient Sith just have an additional method to further increase their capabilities. It's not like people go around fighting naked. Look at Jango. He uses his gear to do all of his feats. Then look at Gallandro. All he uses is a blaster pistol. In a gunfight, Jango would OWN Gallandro because of his equipment. But if all they had were their blaster pistols (like if the Force users had no technology other than their lightsaber), Gallandro would stand a very good chance against Jango. The same is true for anything with the Ancient Sith vs. a non Ancient Sith. They will logically have gear with them.

With or without their technology, the Ancient Sith have knowledge of more powerful Force techniques than any of group of Force Users ever.

The only ones who could defeat Ragnos I would say are Sekot and Luke. DE Sidious is more powerful, but I don't think he could defeat Ragnos in one on one combat. Sidious' techniques were focused on leading much more than combat.

Incorrect.

Luke and Palpatine don't rely on technology for their powers. The only thing that Palpatine relied on was the lifeforce of the residents of Byss, and that was simply to maintain his life and health due to the incredible tolls that the dark side was taking on his body.

The Ancient Sith relied on technology because they could not replicate the feats themselves without the technology in question. Thus, the feats do not stem from their personal power, but from the power of the gear itself. Luke and Palpatine derive their abilities from their personal power, technique, and knowledge of the Force.

In natural power, Luke and Palpatine (by far) supercede the Ancient Sith and it is pointless to argue otherwise. There isn't any proof that the Sith (even Ragnos) have anything close to their abundance of raw power and/or potential.



Oh, yes, because Sith techniques are obviously used primarily for boosting one's leadership ability... please, Glentract. Palpatine's base of knowledge is broader and more plentiful than the Ancient Sith, and we have already proven that his raw power far exceeds them as well.

I do commend you, however, for finally consenting that his power his greater. However, though we can never truly and completely tell who would actually beat who in the context of a versus fight, nothing indicates that Ragnos would win in a fight with Palpatine.

Where the hell does everyone get this "Ancient Sith have so much more than any other Force User ever!" stuff? According to Veitch, he designed it so that Palpatine learned the secrets of the Ancients and invented his own techniques. And from what we've seen, he used them to rather greater extents.

The ancient Sith rely on technology almost exclusively. This is a demerit

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Where the hell does everyone get this "Ancient Sith have so much more than any other Force User ever!" stuff? According to Veitch, he designed it so that Palpatine learned the secrets of the Ancients and invented his own techniques. And from what we've seen, he used them to rather greater extents.

The ancient Sith rely on technology almost exclusively. This is a demerit

Yet everybody goes to the ancient sith to become exponentially more powerful.

Indeed. Sidious definately is better than old Marka. Though would Ragnos be able to take on someone like Revan, or is he more powerful than that?

I guess the logic on the ancient sith is "Oh well they havent shown anything and they used amulets so they must suck".

More logical than "They knew everything! They rock!"

Originally posted by Lightsnake
More logical than "They knew everything! They rock!"

Considering the fact that their era was the pinnacle of dark side powers, and that all the sith went to them to become more powerful, it's a lot more logical than "omg its not the PT jeid, or Luke, or SIDIOUS, they MUST Suck".

Don't take it to the extreme, DS.

No one said they suck. We simply said that their raw power is nothing compared to Luke or Sidious.

Originally posted by Escape81
Don't take it to the extreme, DS.

No one said they suck. We simply said that their raw power is nothing compared to Luke or Sidious.

I don't understand how that was ever a dispute.

I'm also not buying that they're somehow inherently stronger than almost any other era of Force users

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I'm also not buying that they're somehow inherently stronger than almost any other era of Force users

Lightsnake I really don't want to bother arguing with you. It's clear that you hate anything TOTJ and especially Ancient Sith related, so don't bother.

It's so easy to use that instead of actually arguing

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It's so easy to use that instead of actually arguing


No no, with you it works because then you'll start playing stupid and it becomes a waste of time and text.

I've never once seen you account for an entire force of Ancient Sith stopped by a group of non forc esensitives and four Jedi.

These are the elites of all SW how?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
I've never once seen you account for an entire force of Ancient Sith stopped by a group of non forc esensitives and four Jedi.

These are the elites of all SW how?

I'm glad youre referring to the ancient sith that we all refer to usually, such as Ragnos, Sadow, Kressh, Simus, and Pall. Oh wait..

Which means what exactly? Pall did what except moan and cry in a tomb? Kressh died in a situation when most other elites would never have been caught in....Sadow's done.....created illusions. Incredible, welcome to the Oppo Rancisis club.
Simus is a head in a jar. duplicated by a no name Priestess in Boba Fett: Enemy of the Empire. And as a head, he'd be a genuine WEAKLING who can't block a blaster bolt.

Such a powerful group, I so see them beating people like Mace, Dooku, Kun, Yoda, Revan, Bane., Kas'im,...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Which means what exactly? Pall did what except moan and cry in a tomb? Kressh died in a situation when most other elites would never have been caught in....Sadow's done.....created illusions. Incredible, welcome to the Oppo Rancisis club.
Simus is a head in a jar. duplicated by a no name Priestess in Boba Fett: Enemy of the Empire. And as a head, he'd be a genuine WEAKLING who can't block a blaster bolt.

Such a powerful group, I so see them beating people like Mace, Dooku, Kun, Yoda, Revan, Bane., Kas'im,...


And I rest my case. Come back when you can make a case for any of those defeating the likes of Ragnos..

Originally posted by Escape81
Nice theory. Nothing to support it, but you never know.
Like i said, we cant say anything nor assume



Originally posted by Escape81
Luke had no idea what power Ragnos possessed. That is why he decided to put all of his efforts into stopping him. He was concerned about the unknown. He had absolutely no idea what Ragnos was capable of.
But luke knew he was incredibly powerful, luke himself reads the archives and studies galactic history, and when he does that, he knows about ragnos. And if he knew and studied the symbol of marka ragnos, he must have studied the history of marka ragnos, why? because all of it is recorded in the archives, And when he wanted the academy to stop him when he rises from the dead, it meant he couldnt do it alone
Originally posted by Escape81
And, pardon me, but wasn't Ragnos's spirit dispelled by an "above average" Jedi Knight, singlehandedly?
Well why dont we say that ragnos was not in his full power form when he got into tavion? Nothing proved that that was his full power. And by the way, why not say that palpatines spirit got trapped in that floating jedi and got extinguished forever while ragnos survived?

Originally posted by Escape81
No offense, but you're pulling stuff out of your ass here.

Jedi Academy is set only a few years after the events of Dark Empire. Considering how DE Luke was unable to defeat Palpatine on his own, there's nothing to state that he could do it as of Jedia Academy.

Pulling stuff out of my ass? All i said that by JA he gets stronger than he was in DE, you call that pulling it out of my ass? no, im using common sense here

It is a fact that the Jedi's Archives are incomplete, thanks to Palpatine's destruction of them. He himself says that he doesn't know much about Ragnos. It is possible that Luke identified Ragnos's symbol via what teachings and research he got when he was Palpatine's agent. Nothing is to say he knew anything about Ragnos.



The Force and "the Jedi before " saw to Palpatine's destruction. It wasn't Brand himself.



No, you said DE Luke > Sidious and JA Luke > Sidious. This isn't the case.

Marka is behind Jacen, Luke, maybe Kyp (LOTF), DE Sidious and Darth Nihilus. I think that's it, Naga Sadow was scared shitless of him and we know Naga is stronger than most people, he wouldn't be that scared of him for no reason, and he wasn't just scared shitless of Ragnos, he was terrified of Ragnos after Ragnos was dead! So one of the most powerful Sith was terrified of a dead man, so he had to be strong.

Originally posted by Escape81
It is a fact that the Jedi's Archives are incomplete, thanks to Palpatine's destruction of them. He himself says that he doesn't know much about Ragnos. It is possible that Luke identified Ragnos's symbol via what teachings and research he got when he was Palpatine's agent. Nothing is to say he knew anything about Ragnos.

If the jedi archives incomplete, then he shouldnt have even studied the ragnos symbol, And prove that he learnt in when he was palpatines agent? Wrong, he said to kyle "i have just done research of that symbol at the temple"

Originally posted by Kadesh
If the jedi archives incomplete, then he shouldnt have even studied the ragnos symbol, And prove that he learnt in when he was palpatines agent? Wrong, he said to kyle "i have just done research of that symbol at the temple"

It's good to know that you obviously dictate what parts are completed in the Archive.

well i mean that not everything was destroyed, luke too studied about exar kun