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The ROTS Vader is, obviously, without the suit. Anything goes.

I am leaning (quite strongly) for Mace and Vader.

Tyranus and Mace will stalemate. Then it depends on whether Anakin pwns his older self with a lightsaber or whether Vader pwns Anakin with the force. Im leaning towards the sith though.

Dooku's and Mace's crimson and purple sabers flash as the two duel with unmatched skill and erocity. Anakin looks at his black-suited self and screams "do not underestimate my power!" He then runs at him and is shoved back against a wall, snapping his spine. Vader walks over and helps Dooku finally defeat Mace.

Honestly. Vader might lack the speed of Anakin, but he's a lot stronger both physically and in The Force as well as being smarter and more experienced. Anakin/ROTS Vader is too hot-headed.

i think mace alone can beat all of their asses (sorry ot vader, thats a fact) 1 by 1 though

Mace takes Tyranus, ROTS Vader takes OT Vader. Or ROTS VBader beats Tyranus and Mace beats OT Vader.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Mace takes Tyranus, ROTS Vader takes OT Vader. Or ROTS VBader beats Tyranus and Mace beats OT Vader.


Pretty much.

Mace and Tyranus will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever stalemate.

Mace whips Tyranus's ass within a minuite.

Mace and ROTS Vader win this.

Mace or Anakin could probably do it alone.

Actually, they will. Doou is definitely is as good a lightsaber duelist as Mace. He has a knowledge ov Vaapad we know and he's beaten Mace before. he's only grown stronger since that time. Plus his power in The Force is too great for Mace to handle.



Then I guess you don't know anything about Star Wars. Spock was in Star Trek. Sorry to disappoint you, but OT Vader is many times smarter and deadlier in The Force than ROTS Anakin could ever pray to be. At this time, he would thoroughly die against Dooku, who is less experienced in the dark side than OT Vader. So, in-between OT Vader's immense phyiscal power and strength in The Force and Dooku's only mastery of the lightsaber, this duo would tear Mace or ROTS Anakin apart.

Vader doesn't have any strength in the force. He lost most of it when he fell on Mustafar.

are you kidding? Vader doesn't have any strength in the force? He has immense amount of force power, just not compared to his former self. You think only 80% of Sidious, but put in perspective how powerful Sidious is...80% is still quite a bit compared to the average or slightly above average Jedi/Sith.

@Nikkolas

I agree that Vader is deadlier than Anakin, but i wouldn't say more than he could pray to be. Had things not gone sour on Mustafar for him, he would have far surpassed anything Vader could ever pray to be. Why do people like to downplay Anakin so much? Is it because of him or because Hayden played him? I just think people don't give him his just dues.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
are you kidding? Vader doesn't have any strength in the force? He has immense amount of force power, just not compared to his former self. You think only 80% of Sidious, but put in perspective how powerful Sidious is...80% is still quite a bit compared to the average or slightly above average Jedi/Sith.
/B]
That explains why he had trouble defeating padawans.

who did? Anakin? As I recall, he killed a padawan while choking a master, maybe vice versa, but you see what i'm saying. And you can bring up Luke but thats irrelavent due to everything vader will do during the Purges.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
are you kidding? Vader doesn't have any strength in the force? He has immense amount of force power, just not compared to his former self. You think only 80% of Sidious, but put in perspective how powerful Sidious is...80% is still quite a bit compared to the average or slightly above average Jedi/Sith.

@Nikkolas

I agree that Vader is deadlier than Anakin, but i wouldn't say more than he could pray to be. Had things not gone sour on Mustafar for him, he would have far surpassed anything Vader could ever pray to be. Why do people like to downplay Anakin so much? Is it because of him or because Hayden played him? I just think people don't give him his just dues.

What if i told you that palpatine stated that vaders limitations were mental and not physical? And when palpatine says something, he is right

Originally posted by Darth Sexiest
Mace and Tyranus will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever stalemate.

Mace whips Tyranus's ass within a minuite.

Mace and ROTS Vader win this.

Im feeling dizzy from the strong smell of bullsh*t coming from your post. Dooku is easily on par with Mace in terms of the force. Afterall he has trained for 60+ years under Yoda (the greatest light side practicioner of the era) and about 12 under Sidious (the greatest darkside practicioner of the era). Mace may have an advantage because of Vapaad, but Form VII is not indestructible. It has its flaws just like every other form. There is also the fact that Dooku has beaten Mace before - not vice versa. While I cant be bothered sparking off a huge debate about it right now - what you said is utter bullsh*t. If Mace was to win, it most certainly would not be easy. Neither would 'whip' the others ass as you so crudely put it.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
. There is also the fact that Dooku has beaten Mace before - not vice versa. . ooo yea, when mace have not even invented vaapad, yea, And by the way, having more experience doesnt sometime mean you are better, sidious had like decades of experience while yoda had 800, and when they fought? it was stalemate

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Im feeling dizzy from the strong smell of bullsh*t coming from your post. Dooku is easily on par with Mace in terms of the force. Afterall he has trained for 60+ years under Yoda (the greatest light side practicioner of the era) and about 12 under Sidious (the greatest darkside practicioner of the era). Mace may have an advantage because of Vapaad, but Form VII is not indestructible. It has its flaws just like every other form. There is also the fact that Dooku has beaten Mace before - not vice versa. While I cant be bothered sparking off a huge debate about it right now - what you said is utter bullsh*t. If Mace was to win, it most certainly would not be easy. Neither would 'whip' the others ass as you so crudely put it.

So when its Dooku fighting mace, Vapaad is flawed and not indestructible, but when its Anakin, then its the best thing since sliced bread...that's bullshit, and you know it. That's almost reverting back to your old style of Dooku debating. I doubt that Dooku beat Mace as fast as Anakin beat Dooku, not to use an A>B>C argument, but you cant say Mace can beat Anakin for this reason and then say that all of a sudden that doesn't matter when facing the almighty Dooku. That's crap bro, and you know it... If he can beat darkside Anakin, he can surely beat darkside Dooku...

Great. But Dooku hasn't exactly not gotten better himself. Both of their skill in the saber probably has drastically increased and who's to say the result would not be the same? I consider them pretty equal in saber combat but the determining factor ir OT Vader will wipe out Anakin with The Force and then it will be OT Vader and ROTS Dooku vs. Mace. Even if you are a fanboy, you can't even begin to say Mace can pull off a win against those two.

Anakin could beat Mace in saber combat if he was smart and fought like he did against Dooku and not against Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
So when its Dooku fighting mace, Vapaad is flawed and not indestructible, but when its Anakin, then its the best thing since sliced bread...that's bullshit, and you know it. That's almost reverting back to your old style of Dooku debating. I doubt that Dooku beat Mace as fast as Anakin beat Dooku, not to use an A>B>C argument, but you cant say Mace can beat Anakin for this reason and then say that all of a sudden that doesn't matter when facing the almighty Dooku. That's crap bro, and you know it... If he can beat darkside Anakin, he can surely beat darkside Dooku...

What are you talking about? I never said that Vapaad is going to beat Anakin did I? I dont ever recall arguing in a Mace vs Anakin thread. Anakin has nothing to do with this - I was talking about Dooku vs Mace, and why Mace wouldnt win as easy as people make it out to be (thats if Mace wins at all).

A shatterpoint will be hard to find against a seasoned master of the ultimate saber to saber form. I personally think that Mace would beat Dooku, but, it would be a long fight. During the Clone Wars, they fought, and there was no indication of either having an advantage.

In the ANH Novel it says Vader during his fight with Ben is better than when they last fought (on Mustafar). His knowledge and proficiency would give him the edge over his younger, hot-headed self.

Sith for the win.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
What are you talking about? I never said that Vapaad is going to beat Anakin did I? I dont ever recall arguing in a Mace vs Anakin thread. Anakin has nothing to do with this - I was talking about Dooku vs Mace, and why Mace wouldnt win as easy as people make it out to be (thats if Mace wins at all).

you know what, i sincerely apologize...that was Kadesh that was preaching that shit. So sorry to confuse you with him, lol...i feel bad now. But no, really, sorry bout that...got my peeps mixed up.

Lol, its fine. Although im rather offended that you got me confused with Kadesh

j/k

yea, I'll go punch myself in the face later, lol. Man I'm working 84 hours this week, I'm just so burnt out right now, it ain't funny...so my bad again for the unnecessary harshness, and confusing you with kadesh,

84 hours!!! Sheesh, I dont blame you for making the mistake then. I couldnt imagine working for that long *looks in embarrassment at the 10 hours of work I did this work*.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
Actually, they will. Doou is definitely is as good a lightsaber duelist as Mace. He has a knowledge ov Vaapad we know and he's beaten Mace before. he's only grown stronger since that time. Plus his power in The Force is too great for Mace to handle.





I guess It's "Pretend to be a Retard Day", If not, I'll clue you in on a few things.

1.Dooku has NO knowledge on Makashi.
2. He beat Mace BEFORE TPM. Mace diden't know Vapaad yet and diden't possess half the power and skill he did in AOTC.
3. His power is too great to handle?
Dosen't matter. His Vapaad can reflect it, or absorb some of it.
Moot point.

Mace would beat him within a minuite.

Man you're stupid.



You obviously meant Vaapad. Sora Bulq was key in helpign Mace develop the form. He was also then Dooku's right-hand man. I'm sure he didn't tell Dooku anything about the form....



And he's gotten stronger since he beat Mace. Dur. You make it sound like Dooku was at Level B while Mace was at Level A and over the years, Mace rose to Level C and Dooku went nowhere. The dark side training with Sidious and all, I'm sure his powers didn't increase at all over the years since he defeated Mace.....



Good for him. Vaapad is the ultimate form to combat against everything but Makashi is the ultimate form for lightsaber duels. Hence, it is a better quality in this type of encounter. Also, the fight the two had in the Clone Wars, they were dead even and Dooku pushed Mace back. So, your claiming



is to be taken as the words spouted from a person with an IQ range equivalent to Paris Hilton's vocal range. HINT: I'm implying your IQ range is severely limited.

Originally posted by Darth Sexiest
I guess It's "Pretend to be a Retard Day", If not, I'll clue you in on a few things.

Its a friendly argument. No need to get titchy. I could say the same thing about you thinking that Mace would win with such ease.







Didnt Dooku beat Mace again during the CW? This is when Mace had fully mastered Vapaad and was probably nearing his prime.



In terms of force abilities I would put Dooku slightly above Mace. After all, Dooku has trained under both Yoda and Sidious, the strongest practicioners of their respective sides of the force. He also has had decades more time to train and master the force.



No, not point moot. You imply that Vapaad is some godly form, which is unbeatable to dark siders. While it does give Mace an advantage it is hardly a guaranteed victory. You seem to forget that Dooku has mastered the ultimate refinement in lightsaber to lightsaber combat and has again had decades more time to practice.



Hell no.

Stalemate, though I'd say Dooku was doing slightly better.



Force mastery, yes Dooku would be above Mace but Mace has more raw power I'd say.

Honestly, DS. Give me a break. No one, not even "Dooku fanboys" like myself and Ox think Dooku pwns Mace in any sense. If they fought, it be one hell of a fight. No way is any battle between the two going all out ending in a minute. I'v egive a lot to see a full-on battle between Dooku and Mace.

Yoda refers to Vaapad being "the deadliest" lightsaber form. I'd say that that alone puts Vaapad above Makashi. Also, Vaapad is highly effective against dark side users... which happens to be Dooku.

Dooku and Mace fought on Boz Pity once, and Dooku had Grievous's Magnaguards interrupt the fight. But it was a stalemate, and the fight was interrupted, so I don't see where someone says Dooku was winning.

And, given that Mace beat Palpatine (who is more powerful than Dooku) I'd say it's very possible that Dooku could lose.

imo, Sidious could have defeated Mace in their saber battle pretty early on, he was just using Mace to turn Anakin to the darkside.

Originally posted by Dessel
imo, Sidious could have defeated Mace in their saber battle pretty early on, he was just using Mace to turn Anakin to the darkside.

Seems logical, given Sidious's manipulative tendancies... but just speculation.

well dont make me laugh my ass off, firstly OT vader alone could beat ROTS presuit vader, why? because presuit vader goes apeshit, he doesnt think and he brutally beats his opponents, he hardly uses force attacks while OT vader on the other hand is far more experienced with the dark side and has a much wider range of force powers, OT vaders telekenesis alone could rip a huge tree which is not damaged in any way and throws it at roan shryne, Vader even used a waterfall to his advantage to distract the dark woman and yet he could destroy tanks on the battlefield as EAW proved, his force push is far more incredible than his predecessor pushing tark against gravity and smashs him on the ceiling while being able to push a thug in empire vol1 back many many yards, His lightsaber skills alone have improved and yet he can fence off 4 jedi at once while choking another

prehaps you should look at this quote
But even still, Vader wielded tremendous power and skill.

Heres one more
To counter fast-moving opponents, he would use the Force to pull out anything from his surroundings and fling the improvised missiles at his opponent. Without moving a muscle, anything from the venue of the battle could be used as a weapon to crash against Vader's opponents from all directions in a neverending barrage.

And another good one
Taking the proper lessons from his loss to Kenobi, he apparently learned how to control his emotions when in combat, finding a way to call upon calculated bursts of the dark side while not being blinded by emotions running amok.

heres the last Around 3.5 ABY, Vader had ordered ASP-19 droids, lightsaber combat droids based off the ASP-series droid, produced to fight him in sparring matches. They were faster and stronger than an ordinary man, and programmed with the knowledge of a hundred sword masters and a dozen fighting styles. Vader defeated them time and again, and ordered a new, improved batch of them. As his finesse improved they became too easy to defeat, even in a two-on-one match.


This is intresting
The Emperor, having gone out of his way to keep Vader alive, took an alternative viewpoint. Though it was true to say that he had not bargained for an apprentice "more machine now than man", Palpatine was of the opinion that most of the limitations on Vader's potential power were not physical but psychological. He believed that were Vader to fully confront his choices and disappointments, to completely shake himself out of his despair, that he would have been able to "reawaken the incredible power within him"

Originally posted by Rampant ox


Didnt Dooku beat Mace again during the CW? This is when Mace had fully mastered Vapaad and was probably nearing his prime.
No he didnt. If dooku really beat mace then dooku would have tooled sidious considering mace and sidious are equals in saber combat, And remember, sidious can move faster than the eye can see, does that make dooku even faster?

Originally posted by Rampant ox

In terms of force abilities I would put Dooku slightly above Mace. After all, Dooku has trained under both Yoda and Sidious, the strongest practicioners of their respective sides of the force. He also has had decades more time to train and master the force.
Dang! Dang! Dang! Dang! Dang! Dang! Dang! partially you are correct, dooky has grip and lighting, mace has crush and grip, note that crush is the highest form of grip, so i consider mace has 2 dark force powers

Originally posted by Rampant ox

No, not point moot. You imply that Vapaad is some godly form, which is unbeatable to dark siders. While it does give Mace an advantage it is hardly a guaranteed victory. You seem to forget that Dooku has mastered the ultimate refinement in lightsaber to lightsaber combat and has again had decades more time to practice.
Vaapad already is better than djem so who bested makashi and refelcts a dark siders hate and power against him. Makashi is a defensive parrying technique, and i doubt dooku could predict shatterpoint or mace next move since his unique style is unpredictable, Yes dooku is a great swordsman but for dooku to win, the battle situation must be on his side

Originally posted by Kadesh
No he didnt. If dooku really beat mace then dooku would have tooled sidious considering mace and sidious are equals in saber combat, And remember, sidious can move faster than the eye can see, does that make dooku even faster?

Dang! Dang! Dang! Dang! Dang! Dang! Dang! partially you are correct, dooky has grip and lighting, mace has crush and grip, note that crush is the highest form of grip, so i consider mace has 2 dark force powers


Palpatine only moved too fast to see in Dark Empire with the Emperor Reborn. Palpatine did lose to Mace in a lightsaber battle but yet he defeated Yoda who everyone says is better then Mace but Palpatine used the Force in the battle. If Palpatine did use the Force against Mace in their battle Mace would have died before Anakin arrived.

And it is possible that Palpatine threw the fight with Mace to turn Anakin to the dark side.

Also there is no such thing as a light side / dark side force power. That is just the EU trying to make everything seem overpowered and dark.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
Man you're stupid.

Look who's talking.

You obviously meant Vaapad. Sora Bulq was key in helpign Mace develop the form. He was also then Dooku's right-hand man. I'm sure he didn't tell Dooku anything about the form....

Yep. But I was testing you to see If you were paying attention to my post. Obviously you were, but weren't smart enough to figure out what I was doing. Unfortunatly, neither was Rampant and few of the others.

And he's gotten stronger since he beat Mace. Dur. You make it sound like Dooku was at Level B while Mace was at Level A and over the years, Mace rose to Level C and Dooku went nowhere. The dark side training with Sidious and all, I'm sure his powers didn't increase at all over the years since he defeated Mace.....

Actaully, Mace got alot stronger through his years of training after TPM than Dooku ever did. Dooku's Dark Side training did make him more formidable, but it weakened him ever so against Mace's Vapaad.

Good for him. Vaapad is the ultimate form to combat against everything but Makashi is the ultimate form for lightsaber duels. Hence, it is a better quality in this type of encounter. Also, the fight the two had in the Clone Wars, they were dead even and Dooku pushed Mace back. So, your claiming

Wrong. Vapaad is the ultimate Form to combat the Dark Side.
Also, Juyo, Vapaad's core art, is actaully the ultimate Lightsaber Dueling Form, not Makashi. Juyo is like a revamped and expanded version of all the main Lightsaber Forms, and all techniques are fused together uniquely to to express the most effective and simplistic of attacks and defense. This makes it the premier Lightsaber Form for swordsmanship and as a matter of fact, It is known that Juyo excells in the area of dueling against multiple opponants in sword combat. Whereas Makashi is strictly created as a one-on-one type art and begins to lose its benefits after only one opponant is added into a duel.
Also, In the Clone Wars comic, Dooku was clearly leery of fighting Mace and even admitted the possibility of Mace being able to kill him in combat. So much In fact that he had a few of the Magna Gaurd with him to fight a delaying action against Mace so he could escape.

is to be taken as the words spouted from a person with an IQ range equivalent to Paris Hilton's vocal range. HINT: I'm implying your IQ range is severely limited.

Now, If we're taking IQ's into account here, A.You coulden't seem to intelligently deduce what I was trying to do with my first statement, which was to observe If you were paying attention or not. You were, but weren't smart enough to figure out my true intention.
I'd say that's a lil' dumb of you.
B.If we're talking about people with the IQ of Paris Hilton, that would most likely be your mom. For a number of reasons, but mostly for not getting your head checked by a doctor.
C.So If your Implying my IQ range is limited at all, perhaps you should look in the mirror.

Originally posted by Darth Sexiest
So If your Implying my IQ range is limited at all, perhaps you should look in the mirror.

It's "You're", and, if you couldn't tell that he was implying that your IQ is low... he was.

Originally posted by Darth Sexiest
Now, If we're taking IQ's into account here, A.You coulden't seem to intelligently deduce what I was trying to do with my first statement, which was to observe If you were paying attention or not. You were, but weren't smart enough to figure out my true intention.
I'd say that's a lil' dumb of you.
B.If we're talking about people with the IQ of Paris Hilton, that would most likely be your mom. For a number of reasons, but mostly for not getting your head checked by a doctor.
C.So If your Implying my IQ range is limited at all, perhaps you should look in the mirror.

Dude, how old are you? Your mom? look in the mirror? Are you like 14 or 15? That's not helping your IQ argument. You could have done better than that. And don't try to play off the Makashi comment, just say you fvcked up and move on. You think no one can see through that?

I don't know, man. Just stick to the debate and drop the insults, you're a little better at debating...when you have your facts straight, of course. It OK to concede sometimes. It'll actually make you look more intelligent that way.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
Palpatine only moved too fast to see in Dark Empire with the Emperor Reborn. Palpatine did lose to Mace in a lightsaber battle but yet he defeated Yoda who everyone says is better then Mace but Palpatine used the Force in the battle. If Palpatine did use the Force against Mace in their battle Mace would have died before Anakin arrived.

And it is possible that Palpatine threw the fight with Mace to turn Anakin to the dark side.

Also there is no such thing as a light side / dark side force power. That is just the EU trying to make everything seem overpowered and dark. Sry for bumping, i was away playing FFXII these few weeks and was unable to come to KMC,

Firstly Nothing has ever proven sidious would let himself lose and mace beat him, why? 1stly its very risky because he know mace would kill him definately, Secondly its because pal was not able to execute any force powers, he wasnt far enough and doing one during a duel is extremely risky, And from what i have seen, he strikes force powers only when he gets disarmed, proof? ROTS, the battle with yoda, DE, he was never shown to use any powers until AFTER he gets disarmed when he lost his left hand, Then he did force storm and he also was able to summon lightning on mace when he is on the floor, He did all that after getting disarmed

About the so called sidious letting mace win is just speculation. I hate it when rumors break out and there is no proof. Didnt excape mention that mace = sidious is sheer swordplay? that it was mace shatterpoint which led him to victory? And you could hear palpatine groaning after he got kicked on his face and he was crawling away even before anakin came in.

Escape was wrong, this is false.



When did he get disaremd against Yoda?

I'm too lazy to read all the posts, so based on just the first few posts, has anyone thought to have Rots Anakin whoop Dooku's ass again, while Mace holds his own agaist OT vader?

well lets say dooku did survived the attack on the ship orbiting coruscant. Like he lost 1 hand but managed to escape, i think if that happened then in this match up he would not underestimate anakin and come up with a plan, sorry if it sounds dumb ass but thats just me thinking.

Other than that anakin > dooku unless dooku disarms ani then strikes with force lightning, And sadly i dont think OT vader could hold of mace unless he resorts to the force and his sorroundings

i dont know weather its safe to say mace is better than vader in swordplay

Originally posted by Dessel
Escape was wrong, this is false.
, Both wookie and wiki summarised the battle between mace and sid. Both mentioned that sid letting mace win is pure speculation. Tell me, who on earth stated sid let mace win?
im getting tired of all these Anecdotes

Originally posted by Dessel
When did he get disaremd against Yoda?

I have to admit this part is speculation on my part. Firstly why would sidious off his lightsaber when yoda is going after him in the senate? Isnt it dangerous and risky? secondly we never see him switching off his lightsaber nor getting disarmed but i assumed he did because he was not holding one when yoda charged at him, if he was fast enough to strike with lightning, he should be fast enough to pull out his saber

Mace gained advantage over Sidious by actually hitting him with his boot, which caused Sidious to loose his balance and his grip on his Light Saber. But he never out-classed Sidious in Saber combat.

Mace was actually physically taller and stronger then Sidious so his strength actually played to his advantage and not his Saber skills against Sidious.

Well isn't this kind of random. I really don't get why you quoted that particular response of mine, and then started talking about something completely different to what I was saying. Strange...

Why aren't you banned yet, sock?

I'm a sock huh? You're a troll, dumbass and most probably a sock too, why aren't you banned?

Because I'm cool like that.

you, on the other hand, don't have that excuse. Why aren't you banned yet?

It's because I have a huge package.
But you're not actually cool, so seriously, why aren't you banned yet?

lol, this is coming from a sock. Don't tell me anything about cool, Nebaris.

How would being a sock factor in on how well you can judge whether someone's cool or not? Great logic, unlucky about it not making sense.

The logic is that you have no backing in calling me "uncool", when your the fool who can't leave this site alone, so you make REALLY crappy socks. And FYI, talking about your sock on EoD isn't a very good idea when REX has an account their.

Originally posted by Captain SEX
you have no backing in calling me "uncool", when your the fool

Hey that rhymes -

you guys should have an MC battle - loser gets banned

He's getting banned anyway.

And besides, I'm black. It's impossible to beat a black man in a rap battle unless it's fixed.

What about Vanilla Ice ?

*runs for life*

Vanilla Ice was a hole in the force. An anomoly

Disagree? Take it up with Advent - who gave us this information.

As for the rest of the argument, Darth Sexiest, there's no way in hell Mace is going to WTFpwn him in a fight. I can see Mace taking him in a swordfight, in the end, given his numerous advantages over Dooku - but I could also see Dooku taking it as well, being the master of Makashi, and likely the stronger Force user.

ROTS Vader would like to fight Tyrannus due to his hatred towards him. Anakin finishes off Tyrannus in 30 seconds and then Mace and Vader wtf pwn OT Vader.

That's one way of looking at it.. Another is Dooku WTFpwns Anakin in The Force and then him and Vader tea up to overpower Mace.

Originally posted by Blue_Hefner
Vader doesn't have any strength in the force. He lost most of it when he fell on Mustafar.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
That's one way of looking at it.. Another is Dooku WTFpwns Anakin in The Force and then him and Vader tea up to overpower Mace.

Lol. How will he "WTFpwn" him with the force, exactly? If he could why didn't he do it when he got beheaded?

I see Dooku fumbling for the "Light sabers for dummies" emergency manual just as he gets decapitated by Anakin, then the good guys go destroy OT Vader.

Concerning the Yoda disarming Sidious speculation....meybve Sidious saw Yoda as the superiotr and more skilled saber duelist and quit the sword-fight and started using the force.

Originally posted by Captain SEX
I see Dooku fumbling for the "Light sabers for dummies" emergency manual just as he gets decapitated by Anakin

Even though Dooku is far more experienced and skilled with a blade than Anakin.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Even though Dooku is far more experienced and skilled with a blade than Anakin.

Far more experienced? Yes.

Far more skilled? No. Otherwise, Anakin would've been decapitated - not the other way around.

ooohhh sick burn! (an ode to Grandma's Boy, lol)

Originally posted by Escape81
Far more experienced? Yes.

Far more skilled? No. Otherwise, Anakin would've been decapitated - not the other way around.

I would say Dooku is more skilled as well. Anakin won because of his raw power, anger and his huge amount of physical strength. I doubt that Anakin, a young man in his 20's, would have more skill than an 80 year old master who has been taught by the best.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
I would say Dooku is more skilled as well. Anakin won because of his raw power, anger and his huge amount of physical strength. I doubt that Anakin, a young man in his 20's, would have more skill than an 80 year old master who has been taught by the best.

Yoda has about nine centuries of experience and skill in the Force. DE Sidious has about ninety. And, yet, we both know which one is more powerful and skilled - and it's Sidious.

Age can measure experience, but not necessarily skill or power. Count Dooku has the experience. But he lacks the skill. A pissed off Anakin is too powerful for Count Dooku in a lightsaber duel or in an all out fight.

An argument could be made for Dooku's skill being superior. But that doesn't mean he'd win the fight. Anakin's raw, blind rage just cut through Dooku's "skill" like a buzzsaw through butter.

Oh definetly. I dont want to sound like im saying Dooku would win. Im just saying I think Dooku has more skill as well as experience.

Same reason Palpatine didn't use The Force against Mace- the way the movie was made. That's pretty obvious. We saw many demonstrations of his power in The Force in all sorts of places but simply because he didn't use it in one fight automatically makes it pointless? Hardly.

Anakin's raw power in The Force is so great he brought a building down just by yelling... The amazing part people who support Anakin forget to mention is that the retard brought it down on himself and Ob-Wan while Dooku had the sense of mind and awareness to manage to avoid being pinned down. Honestly. Anyone who really thinks Anakin showed anything special with that should have their head examined. If he could actually bring down the building against his enemies, then it be worth of note when referring to his power.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Even though Dooku is far more experienced and skilled with a blade than Anakin. Experience can goto waste ya know, yoda had 800 years experience and sidious had only like what 60 years at that time and he was a match for yoda is sheer swordsmanship and still stalemate

Originally posted by Escape81
Yoda has about nine centuries of experience and skill in the Force. DE Sidious has about ninety. And, yet, we both know which one is more powerful and skilled - and it's Sidious.

Age can measure experience, but not necessarily skill or power. Count Dooku has the experience. But he lacks the skill. A pissed off Anakin is too powerful for Count Dooku in a lightsaber duel or in an all out fight.

An argument could be made for Dooku's skill being superior. But that doesn't mean he'd win the fight. Anakin's raw, blind rage just cut through Dooku's "skill" like a buzzsaw through butter. Good point here, lets not forget dooku could have underestimated anakin because he beat ani before so that thing does play a part to dookus defeat. If dooku took him seriously he would not have gone down that fast and he would have known makashi aint so good with djem so/shien. He should have relied on the force or something.

We all saw what happened in ROTS between Dooku and Anakin when Anakin tapped into the Dark Side, didn't we?

tap into the darkside during the dooku duel? i dont know

Well, whether Anakin did tap into the Dark Side or not is debatable, but either way, Dooku lost. That puts it down to Mace and OT Vader.

Prodigal Knight's Scenario of the Fight :


OT Vader and ROTS Tyrannus step into the empty flat Dueling Arena in the Jedi Temple. They look at each other and nod. Across from them, at the other side of the arena, stood their opponents. ROTS Vader and Mace Windu. The duo's calmy strode toward the others, until only a few feet away. Then as fast as lightning, 4 blades ignited and the arena was a panorama of a sea of blue, purple, and red.

Scenario 1:

Immediately, ROTS Vader Force Jumped and slashed his blue blade at the awaiting Darth Tyrannus. The former Count of Serenno jumped back and lashed out with a blast of Lightning. ROTS Vader easily countered it with his saber and then with a burst of Force Speed, slashed viciously at Tyrannus. The Sith Lord desperately countered, his energy rapidly depleting. Blades bounced back and back, until finally Tyrannus could not last any longer....

Meanwihle, Windu and OT Vader battled fiercly. Windu's Vapaad and Shatterpoint ability aided him greatly in the fight, but OT Vader would not give up. His mastery of saber forms and his telekinetic ability to fight while using the Force surprised Windu. OT Vader planned to do another slash of tremendous power when another warrior slammed into him. ROTS Vader. OT Vader was scared, one of his opponents was enough, but two, no chance at all. OT Vader pressed his blade to his face and then began a last final charge, before death.

Scenario 2:

ROTS Vader was very fast, faster than any other Jedi OT Vader had ever encountered. Nevertheless, the agile Sith Lord lacked powers in the Force, and that was OT Vader's advantage. His Djem So was more powerful, but not as fast ROTS's Vader, however his telekinetic ability to fight while using the Force kept being a nuisance to the young Sith Lord. ROTS Vader had to keep on turning back and cutting down all the debris OT Vader brought down. The fight was not even close to a finish....

Meanwhile Darth Tyrannus originally enjoyed his fight with Mace Windu. He knew Windu from years back as Battlemaster and he always won in a sparring fight, but this was not the Windu he knew. Windu had mastered Juyo! Something was impossible to Tyrannus. Windu was a raging river of purple, zooming around Tyrannus's elegant moves of Makashi. Tyrannus tried one of his fighting combos, the Kick-Choke-Throw, but it failed as when he used Whirlwind upon Mace, the Korun Jedi Master countered with a damaging Force Crush. Tyrannus crashed into the wall and slumped down. He was nearly finished. But Windu was not. The Jedi Master came on fiercly, and Tyrannus could only look on helplessly as his former friend cut him down.

OT Vader fought valiantly, but even he was no match for Windu and ROTS Vader. He looked on desperately, and then began a final charge to bring down one of his opponents, a final charge to hell.

I don't think Windu would win a in a fight against Dooku.

why not? he defeated sidious whom surpasses dooku in every way

edited

I detest A>B>C arguments, but Windu did best Sidious in their duel in RotS. I don't see why Mace doesn't stand an excellent chance of killing Count Dooku in a saber duel, given that Vaapad is more dangerous than Makashi - especially to dark siders. Mace's Shatterpoint ability (to which Dooku is susceptible to) gives him a second advantage, so I can see him winning in a lightsaber fight. It'd likely be as difficult as Windu vs. Sidious - but with Shatterpoint and Vaapaad's nature against dark siders, I'd firmly say that a duel would go to Mace.

In a Force fight? Well, that's something different. Contrary to popular belief, Windu is not a pushover in this area. Logical deduction must take effect, because if he is second only to Yoda (as well as a senior councilmember and the youngest councilmember in the Jedi's history) - then I'd say his Force powers and mastery supercede everyone else on the Council except for Yoda, and possibly by quite a bit.

Having said that, Count Dooku has access to his lexicon of dark side powers - which Mace Windu does not have. Dooku also has several decades more experience on Windu, which speaks of longer mastery and attunement to the Force. So, I can see Dooku taking the Force fight - but not easily.

Well mace windu did demonstrate force crush on GG before B.O.C and note that crush is disputed as a dark side power. But in a force fight i dont know who would win.

Yes i do know how deadly vaapad is, was lazy to type it out, neways thanks for typing it

I only use a>b>c when its resonable, in this scenrio, it is. Before using a>b>c i would have to look at the factors before i have to come up with this. If vaapad could put sidious down, it sure can to dooku because vaapad is effective towards dark siders, i read it on wiki and wookie, quite useful

Anyway, are my scenarios accurate and correct???

wrong, Vader would woop anakins ass fast

Are you serious?

how many times do i have to say it? Vader is far stronger than presuit vader because 1) he has greater skill in djem so 2) he learns alot of things from the most powerful sith lord ever and he wields tremendous powers in the dark side 3) it has been proven he is an extremely skilled dueslist by abeling to fend of 8 jedi masters at once and blow back a thug 50m in empire vol1

and lastly he would know what anakins strategy is because he himself was once anakin and he will be able to detect his predesessors flaws and mistakes and use them to his advantage

Please, Kadesh.

RotS Anakin/Vader and OT Vader have a lot of differences, true. OT Vader is more powerful in the Force - simply because of the two decades he had to hone his skill and master the dark side under the Emperor's training.

But, to say that Vader would conquer Anakin with minimal difficulty is a completely ridiculous assertion.

We've seen what happens when Vader fights someone who is more agile or faster than him. In the suit, his mobility is pathetic compared to RotS Anakin/Vader's own. Yes, his strength - due to the mechanized suit - has increased, but what good will it do him when his opponent is out of range, or constantly on the move? Vader's strikes are powerful - but they are slow.

Likewise, Rise of Darth Vader explains that when Anakin was in rage, the Force did grant him feats of superhuman strength and flurry. So, he is capable of being as strong as Vader. The difference is - Anakin's physical strength increases only in bursts.

If it ends up in a saber fight, let me assure you that Vader will lose - likely. Count Dooku (like OT Vader) had more experience and a greater mastery of the Force than Anakin, but was simply unable to handle Anakin's raw power and wrath. In RotS, Dooku was unable to attack Anakin with the Force due to the onslaught he was facing.

Take RotJ for example. The moment that Vader mentioned turning Leia to the dark side, and Luke went into Pissed-Off Mode, the fight was over. Vader, like Dooku was more experienced - and by all rights - more powerful, but could not handle Luke's wrath. Luke battered Vader all up and down the throne room.

If it gets to a saber fight, I give OT Vader the same time I'd give Dooku: which isn't long.

However, OT Vader can secure a win by using his superior Force powers and ability to manipulate environments into play. But he'd have to do all that before Anakin gets close.

Originally posted by Escape81


We've seen what happens when Vader fights someone who is more agile or faster than him. In the suit, his mobility is pathetic compared to RotS Anakin/Vader's own. Yes, his strength - due to the mechanized suit - has increased, but what good will it do him when his opponent is out of range, or constantly on the move? Vader's strikes are powerful - but they are slow.
Firstly, if he was that slow, he would not have been able to fend of 8 jedi masters at once during the purged, he was able to choke 1 while holding off 3 other jedi masters, Slow? then he would have died

Originally posted by Escape81


Likewise, Rise of Darth Vader explains that when Anakin was in rage, the Force did grant him feats of superhuman strength and flurry. So, he is capable of being as strong as Vader. The difference is - Anakin's physical strength increases only in bursts.
Yes true but anakin goes crazy, he cant stop to think and that was his downfall in ROTS, vader on the other hand calls upon the dark side while being calm and not going amok, i suggest you read this He apparently learned his lesson from his duel with Kenobi, learning how to control his emotions when in combat and finding a way to call upon calculated bursts of the dark side while not being blinded by emotions running amok.

Originally posted by Escape81


If it ends up in a saber fight, let me assure you that Vader will lose - likely. Count Dooku (like OT Vader) had more experience and a greater mastery of the Force than Anakin, but was simply unable to handle Anakin's raw power and wrath. In RotS, Dooku was unable to attack Anakin with the Force due to the onslaught he was facing.
Let me assure you that you are wrong. firstly having raw power doesnt mean you will win 100%. And in a saber duel vader loses?
wrong, he is more skillful. let me prove this to you
Around 3.5 ABY, Vader had ordered ASP-19 droids, lightsaber combat droids based off the ASP-series droid, to be produced to fight him in sparring matches. They were faster and stronger than an ordinary man, and programmed with the knowledge of a hundred sword masters and a dozen fighting styles. Vader defeated them time and again, and thus ordered new, improved batches of them. As his finesse improved, they became too easy to defeat, even in a two-on-one match. Yout think this is rubbish? the game JA backs this phrase up. Therefore vader > anakin in saber combat


Originally posted by Escape81


Take RotJ for example. The moment that Vader mentioned turning Leia to the dark side, and Luke went into Pissed-Off Mode, the fight was over. Vader, like Dooku was more experienced - and by all rights - more powerful, but could not handle Luke's wrath. Luke battered Vader all up and down the throne room.
Thats because luke mirrored vaders own form of djem so, And when 1 strikes first with the same fighting style, the other goes down, that proves how powerful djem so can be and doesnt this give vader the advantage because he is simply stronger than anakin?


Originally posted by Escape81


However, OT Vader can secure a win by using his superior Force powers and ability to manipulate environments into play. But he'd have to do all that before Anakin gets close. Read the above about the phrase, That changes everything you say about anakin > vader in saber combat, yes in the force vader would finish anakin, why? because grip and crush are instant, There is no waiting time when executing these powers and anakin doesnt have any defence against crush. Vaders force crush has been proven to be devastating, in Eaw he could destry tanks with it and his force wave could kill dozens of soldiers.
And yes i give credit to eaw, why? because it doesnt contradict anything about vaders power

You didn't read; I said that his mobility was pathetic compared to Anakin's. Which, hate to tell you, is the honest-to-God absolute truth. Anakin is more agile and faster than Vader. Accept it and let's move on.



That was against Kenobi. His once trusted friend, whom he believes turned his beloved wife against him. That's not to say that he's going to become a walking stick of dynomite to anyone. Then, you have to factor in that Obi-Wan knew Anakin better than anyone else, and was also a master of the defensive lightsaber form, which enabled him to withstand Anakin's wrath - and even then - he was forced to give ground.



Tell that to Dooku's headless body on Invisible Hand. Dooku had more experience and skill than anyone in the series except for Yoda and Sidious - and Anakin cut through that like butter. Unless your Obi-Wan, in Anakin's case, raw power does almost always equate to one hundred percent victory.



The hell? Means jack. OT Vader was wounded by ESB Luke, due to his lack of mobility. ESB Luke isn't exactly a heavy weight in any sense of the word. Droids =/= Force using combatants.



Wrong.



No. It's because Luke was empowered by the dark side. His onslaught knocked Vader off his guard. When that happened, he battered him around like a freakin' punching bag. Didn't change the fact that Vader had more lifting strength, and was physically more powerful - he just couldn't stop Luke's fury.

And, no, it doesn't give Vader the advantage - because RotS Vader is stronger than RotJ Luke - and RotJ Luke put OT Vader on his ass, when he was empowered by the dark side.



I'm thinking that if Vader could crush tanks, instantly, he'd have squashed those eight Jedi Knights in Purge without any difficulty, instead of being carved open like a joint of beef. Games aren't canon.

OT Vader > RotS Anakin in mastery, refinement, and control of the Force, but that means jack unless he can use it before Anakin is all over him.

Originally posted by Escape81
You didn't read; I said that his mobility was pathetic compared to Anakin's. Which, hate to tell you, is the honest-to-God absolute truth. Anakin is more agile and faster than Vader. Accept it and let's move on.


Dude chill man i already said i know that
Originally posted by Escape81
That was against Kenobi. His once trusted friend, whom he believes turned his beloved wife against him. That's not to say that he's going to become a walking stick of dynomite to anyone. Then, you have to factor in that Obi-Wan knew Anakin better than anyone else, and was also a master of the defensive lightsaber form, which enabled him to withstand Anakin's wrath - and even then - he was forced to give ground.
And vader simply knows himself better than obi wan knows him right?

Originally posted by Escape81
Tell that to Dooku's headless body on Invisible Hand. Dooku had more experience and skill than anyone in the series except for Yoda and Sidious - and Anakin cut through that like butter. Unless your Obi-Wan, in Anakin's case, raw power does almost always equate to one hundred percent victory.
So does that mean FP anakin > lotf luke? i dont think so.
If what you said is true, then anakin should have killed obi wan and not get hurt

Originally posted by Escape81
The hell? Means jack. OT Vader was wounded by ESB Luke, due to his lack of mobility. ESB Luke isn't exactly a heavy weight in any sense of the word. Droids =/= Force using combatants.
Firstly vader was toying around with ESB luke and could have killed him from the very start, he underestimated luke which is why he got hit from his lightsaber.

Originally posted by Escape81
Wrong.
Correct

Originally posted by Escape81
No. It's because Luke was empowered by the dark side. His onslaught knocked Vader off his guard. When that happened, he battered him around like a freakin' punching bag. Didn't change the fact that Vader had more lifting strength, and was physically more powerful - he just couldn't stop Luke's fury. The same can happen to anakin provided vader makes the first move. Already please read that phrase i posted, it is enough to prove that vader can > anakin and > dooku in saber combat

Originally posted by Escape81
And, no, it doesn't give Vader the advantage - because RotS Vader is stronger than RotJ Luke - and RotJ Luke put OT Vader on his ass, when he was empowered by the dark side.
And now your using a>b>c when it is illogical at this point,
Yes it does. read the phrase i posted. if vader could do very well fending of 8 jedi masters he sure can beat anakin. Remember tsui choi? whom is far faster than anakin? vader parried his moves easy and then parryed another jedi masters strikes. Note that he was able to cut of sia lan wezzs hand even before her dead body hit the floor.

Originally posted by Escape81
I'm thinking that if Vader could crush tanks, instantly, he'd have squashed those eight Jedi Knights in Purge without any difficulty, instead of being carved open like a joint of beef. Games aren't canon.

That battle only happened 3-5 weeks after ROTS, vader hadnt mastered any of the force moves he had yet, he couldnt even choke one of the jedi masters properly yet, and note that Eaw happens 10-15 years after ROTS when by then he has mastered all his force abilities accept lightning

OT Vader > RotS Anakin in mastery, refinement, and control of the Force, but that means jack unless he can use it before Anakin is all over him. Which he could when he was able to kill the dark woman whom is far faster than he could ever be.

O wait games arent canon? so kotor is not canon then is it? Vader did demonstrate crush, remember ROTS after he heard padme died? And he did demonstrated it many times in the EU

Originally posted by Kadesh
why not? he defeated sidious whom surpasses dooku in every way

Obi-Wan beat Anakin, but he didn't manage to beat Dooku, who was killed by Anakin.

Cyborg or OT Darth Vader is more powerful then before. He has two advantages:

1) Great Strength.
2) More Mastery of the force.

- Greater strength enhances your "Over-powering" potential in melee fights. Still some people here think that Strength is not an important factor in fights but this is wrong assumption. Better physical conditions always increase your fighting efficiency.

- And more mastery in force will make fights easier to win against less powerful opponents.

ROTS Vader has more agility but that is not sufficient advantage against an opponent with much greater strength.

Additionally, OT Vader also uses "Djem form" like Anakin so Anakin does not holds any advantage over him in Saber Combat as well.

So, with these two advantages at hand, OT Vader has better chance to defeat his ROTS appearance or ROTS Vader.

And Luke vs OT Vader arguement is useless because OT Vader was his father and he did not wanted to kill him but actually wanted to turn him to Dark Side. And this was clearly evident because OT Vader was more defensive in that fight.

ROTS Anakin is over-hyped.

Mace managed to crush Grievous during the Clone Wars. I hardly see why he can't do that now. In the Dark Lord book, Roan Shryne realized that Vader's weakness was his need to protect his chest, and started attacking all around Vader. Mace's Vaapad is made to strike fast and in many places at once.

Originally posted by Council#13
Obi-Wan beat Anakin, but he didn't manage to beat Dooku, who was killed by Anakin.
Dooku always took Obi-Wan more seriously then Anakin in fights because he considered him to be more powerful and experienced then Anakin as even Yoda held Obi-Wan in very high esteem.

So, Dooku used his greater mastery of the force to his advantage against Obi-Wan during his fight against him in ROTS and removed his threat quickly so that he won't be able to create any trouble for Dooku when facing Anakin.

But Dooku's under-estimation of Anakin would cost him dearly as he soon realized his mistake when fighting against Anakin as Anakin was a more over-powering opponent but it was too late by then.

If Dooku had taken Anakin very seriously from start then he would have won the fight.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Cyborg or OT Darth Vader is more powerful then before. He has two advantages:

1) Great Strength.
2) More Mastery of the force.

- Greater strength enhances your "Over-powering" potential in melee fights. Still some people here think that Strength is not an important factor in fights but this is wrong assumption. Better physical conditions always increase your fighting efficiency.

- And more mastery in force will make fights easier to win against less powerful opponents.

ROTS Vader has more agility but that is not sufficient advantage against an opponent with much greater strength.

Additionally, OT Vader also uses "Djem form" like Anakin so Anakin does not holds any advantage over him in Saber Combat as well.

So, with these two advantages at hand, OT Vader has better chance to defeat his ROTS appearance or ROTS Vader.

And Luke vs OT Vader arguement is useless because OT Vader was his father and he did not wanted to kill him but actually wanted to turn him to Dark Side. And this was clearly evident because OT Vader was more defensive in that fight.

ROTS Anakin is over-hyped. Exactly, i applaud you on this point

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Dooku always took Obi-Wan more seriously then Anakin in fights because he considered him to be more powerful and experienced then Anakin as even Yoda held Obi-Wan in very high esteem.

So, Dooku used his greater mastery of the force to his advantage against Obi-Wan during his fight against him in ROTS and removed his threat quickly so that he won't be able to create any trouble for Dooku when facing Anakin.

But Dooku's under-estimation of Anakin would cost him dearly as he soon realized his mistake when fighting against Anakin as Anakin was a more over-powering opponent but it was too late by then.

If Dooku had taken Anakin very seriously from start then he would have won the fight.

You're right, according to the novelization he did realize that Anakin's Djem So would be too strong for his Makashi. But even as he tried to change tactics, he still lost. The form that seems to be most effective against Makashi seems to be Djem So.

I'm pretty sure Shien, Ataru, and Vaapad are as effective, if not more effective.

Shien and Djem So are practically the same thing. Dooku knows how to kill someone who uses Ataru. He was just about to employ this technique when Obi-Wan switched to Soresou in the novelization. Vaapad, we don't know, but according to Mace's bio on the Official Star Wars website, Dooku has beaten Mace before in combat. This was probably after Mace's creation of Vaapad, as he was most likely on the Council at this time.

dooku beating mace? i would like to know the exact timeline of BBY, some people here said it was before mace invented vaapad. And i dont see how mace can lose to dooku with vaapad

Hey, Dooku's good!

n his day, Mace was one of the best lightsaber fighters of the Jedi order. It was said only two opponents ever bested him -- Yoda, and Dooku. Only the most skilled of the Jedi could master the his Form VII discipline of combat -- the deadly technique known as vaapad -- for its aggressive nature treaded dangerously upon dark side practices.

Each of us could interpret that our own way, but I see it as despite the fact that he had Vaapad, he still won.

Yeah, in his day, doesn't that mean his prime? Forgive me if I'm wrong, not my main language!

Originally posted by kamikz
Yeah, in his day, doesn't that mean his prime? Forgive me if I'm wrong, not my main language!

I guess it does!

Weird if dooku could take down mace then why couldnt he take down sidious in lightsaber dueling alone, Sidious could move faster than the eye ya know

Maybe Dooku could to, after all, absence of proof is not proof of absence.

Mace was only like thirty or something during that pre-TPM time. I doubt he reached his potential yet. And thirteen years along with war experience bolsters your skill by a lot. Mace > Dooku.

True. But im sure Dooku learnt some nifty new tricks as well. He might not have been an active participant in actual warfare - but he still had all of his Dark Acolytes he had to train. This included sparring. Which meant he saber and force skills stayed sharp, if not got better. He was also under the training of the most powerful dark side user of the time. So, taking all this into account, and the fact Dooku has beaten Mace twice before, Dooku>Mace

For all you know, the duel between the two could have taken place a few months before the events of TPM, placing Mace at forty. And considering by this point he'd have had a good twenty-five years to hone his Vaapad and shatterpoint skills, plus the ten years between the first two episodes, I doubt he had much room to improve during the Clone Wars. Hell, we know for sure that he wasn't strong enough to simply overpower Dooku by the end of the war, seeing as how he was held off long enough that the Count could have his lackeys momentarily incapacitate him.

And I'd like to ask if anyone here has taken into account the thirteen years of training Dooku himself underwent as a Sith. Dooku's seventy years in the Temple, plus at least a good decade of training in the Sith arts would almost certainly be more beneficial in a combat scenario than simply fine-tuning already familiar techniques.

As to a duel between the two - in swordsmanship? I'd say Mace could hold his own quite well, and here's where he may have his chance to overwhelm Dooku - his shatterpoint, coupled with the unpredictable nature of his Vaapad may give him an edge here. However, it's certainly not enough to completely undermine the total mastery of a form created for the purpose of dueling, and when you factor in Dooku's undeniably greater arsenal of Force powers, I don't see Mace having a good day at all.

The timeframe of the matches between Count Dooku and Mace have yet to be fully explored; the circumstances of the duels themselves haven't been elaborated. For all you know, they sparred ten times, and Dooku beat him once - as it would still mean that Dooku had defeated him before.

We also see that Count Dooku was unable to overpower Mace, too, as of that little incident on Boz Pity. Unless you're implying that Dooku's ability to have his henchmen interrupt the fight obviously speaks of superiority over Mace.



True; his lexicon of Force powers would have only increased in his training under Darth Sidious. It is logical to deduce that Count Dooku is Mace's superior in the Force - but there is nothing to indicate that he is superior saber wise.

Also, the last time I checked, during Revenge of the Sith, Anakin was all over him to the point that Dooku was unable to unleash a Force attack - which led to his defeat and death aboard Invisible Hand. It is logical to assume that in a scenario where Dooku is faced with an opponent of greater raw physical power, strength, and tenacity (which Mace all fits) it is unlikely that he can open himself up to use the Force without being battered to death in the process.



Vaapad had an extremely effective result against Darth Sidious in combat, being a Sith Lord and powerful dark sider, so I don't see how Count Dooku would fare any better. Yoda refers to Vaapad as "the most lethal lightsaber form" - implying that a sufficient wielder of that form would be more dangerous and more skilled than a wielder of Makashi. Also, Count Dooku is susceptible to a shatterpoint maneuver, and he has no defense for it.

If he can use the Force against Mace, I can see him winning. Otherwise, I see Count Dooku as having the bad day.

Originally posted by Escape81
The timeframe of the matches between Count Dooku and Mace have yet to be fully explored; the circumstances of the duels themselves haven't been elaborated. For all you know, they sparred ten times, and Dooku beat him once - as it would still mean that Dooku had defeated him before.

You are twisting its words. It never says that Mace has beaten Dooku, or that he has the power to do so. However it does quite clearly state that Dooku has, and therefore can, beat Mace. And dont argue the 'absence of proof is not proof of absence' bullsh*t. If Mace had beaten Dooku it would have stated it. You cant just assume something with no solid evidence to back you up. You have a theory, nothing more nothing less.



Yet you have not stated anything that proves that Mace is better saber wise. Dooku has had decades more experience with a blade. No, experience isnt everything, but dont try to pass it off as if it is nothing. It is a huge plus in Dooku's favour, especially when from this experience he has sparred with the likes of Yoda, Obi-Wan, Sidious (presumably), Qui-Gon, Mace and many more. He was also the Temples Battle Master, giving him knowledge of all forms and keeping his saber skills in peak condition.

On top of this he has had the privelege of training under both Yoda and Sidious - the two greatest duellists of the era. This gives him great knowledge of fighting with both the dark and the light side of the force. He also personally trained a number of formiddable apprentices, General Greivous and Asajj Ventress come to mind. This again proves that Dooku kept his lightsaber skills fine tuned, and that just because he is old doesnt mean that his abilities went downhill.

Finally, he is described as unequaled in a classical form of lightsaber combat. This of course is Makashi, which we all know as the ultimate refinement in lightsaber to lightsaber combat. Now this specifically states it as the best from in regards to one on one duelling, therefore better than Vapaad. Wookipedia also states (although im not sure how accuratethis is) His Form II mastery, paired with his deep connection with the Force, made Dooku a nearly impossible adversary to overcome. Dooku was so well versed in lightsaber combat that he was able to hold his own against three or four opponents by himself despite the fact that Makashi was less efficient when faced with multiple opponents. i dont know how true that is but it certainly reinforces the fact that Dooku was one of the best, easily on par with Windu.




Perhaps. Although I would say that Anakin is a stronger (physically) opponent than Mace, and that Djem So is a more physical form than Vapaad. There is also the fact that Anakin deeply hates Dooku, and this again makes Anakin a more dangerous opponent. Im sure if the need and opportunity presented itself, Dooku would be able to use the force to his advantage. He was able to do so against Yoda in AOTC, and Yoda is probably the fastest and most deadly duellist in the galaxy. Also take into account that Dooku fights with one hand, leaving the other hand open to force attacks.

Dooku has the advantage in force powers and is easily on par with Mace with a blade. Although I think that a straight up saber duel would end in a stalemate, therefore Dooku's force prowess would earn him the victory.

If it says that only Dooku had only beaten Mace 1 out of 10 times, then why the hell would it say that only Dooku and Yoda had managed to beat him? That's like saying some junior baseball team can beat the New York Yankees just because they beat them once out of pure luck.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
You are twisting its words. It never says that Mace has beaten Dooku, or that he has the power to do so. However it does quite clearly state that Dooku has, and therefore can, beat Mace. And dont argue the 'absence of proof is not proof of absence' bullsh*t. If Mace had beaten Dooku it would have stated it. You cant just assume something with no solid evidence to back you up. You have a theory, nothing more nothing less.



Yet you have not stated anything that proves that Mace is better saber wise. Dooku has had decades more experience with a blade. No, experience isnt everything, but dont try to pass it off as if it is nothing. It is a huge plus in Dooku's favour, especially when from this experience he has sparred with the likes of Yoda, Obi-Wan, Sidious (presumably), Qui-Gon, Mace and many more. He was also the Temples Battle Master, giving him knowledge of all forms and keeping his saber skills in peak condition.

On top of this he has had the privelege of training under both Yoda and Sidious - the two greatest duellists of the era. This gives him great knowledge of fighting with both the dark and the light side of the force. He also personally trained a number of formiddable apprentices, General Greivous and Asajj Ventress come to mind. This again proves that Dooku kept his lightsaber skills fine tuned, and that just because he is old doesnt mean that his abilities went downhill.

Finally, he is described as unequaled in a classical form of lightsaber combat. This of course is Makashi, which we all know as the ultimate refinement in lightsaber to lightsaber combat. Now this specifically states it as the best from in regards to one on one duelling, therefore better than Vapaad. Wookipedia also states (although im not sure how accuratethis is) His Form II mastery, paired with his deep connection with the Force, made Dooku a nearly impossible adversary to overcome. Dooku was so well versed in lightsaber combat that he was able to hold his own against three or four opponents by himself despite the fact that Makashi was less efficient when faced with multiple opponents. i dont know how true that is but it certainly reinforces the fact that Dooku was one of the best, easily on par with Windu.




Perhaps. Although I would say that Anakin is a stronger (physically) opponent than Mace, and that Djem So is a more physical form than Vapaad. There is also the fact that Anakin deeply hates Dooku, and this again makes Anakin a more dangerous opponent. Im sure if the need and opportunity presented itself, Dooku would be able to use the force to his advantage. He was able to do so against Yoda in AOTC, and Yoda is probably the fastest and most deadly duellist in the galaxy. Also take into account that Dooku fights with one hand, leaving the other hand open to force attacks.

Dooku has the advantage in force powers and is easily on par with Mace with a blade. Although I think that a straight up saber duel would end in a stalemate, therefore Dooku's force prowess would earn him the victory. you made a mistake, vaapad requires the amount of kinetic energy needed in djem so,

Is there any evidence to support that?

Read wiki and wookie

It's also pretty obvious, it is described as the deadliest of all forms, Mace in motion was described as seemingly wielding multiple lightsabers, in Insider 62, it is actually stated to be a more kinetic form. Too bad Mace didn't display this in the movie.

I am not twisting its words, Rampant. Come off your "I love Dooku" high horse and think rationally. But, I forgot, you're the one who said "Dooku put Mace on his @ss in the Clone Warz!!111!!", when he didn't.

I'd say you're the one who likes to twist things, not me.

"You are twisting its words. It never says that Mace has beaten Dooku, or that he has the power to do so."

Hmm. Let's see what's wrong with this.

1. Dooku beat Mace in the past. They've both improved since then.

2. Where the hell does it say that Dooku has the power to beat Mace now?

3. Obi-Wan beat Vader in RotS. But, whoops! Couldn't beat him in ANH. Dooku beat Anakin before in AotC. But, whoops! Got pwned in RotS. ESB Luke got manhandled by Vader, but - guess what? - pwned Vader at the end of their duel in RotJ.

Bottom fricken line, Dooku did it in the past. Kudos to him. Says nothing that he's guarenteed a victory now.



Mace's form > Dooku's form. Fact. It's deadliest and hardest to master, and what did Mace do? Uh, guess what! He mastered it. You seem to think that just because Dooku is trained in Makashi that is he automatically a step above everbody else. Guess what? Not so. He couldn't defeat Mace on Boz Pity. Anakin was trained in Djem So - which is technically an inferior form - and got his ass handed to him by Anakin. Then, we've got Yoda. Yoda uses Ataru, which disgusts Dooku, and yet he was unable to defeat Yoda in Attack of the Clones, and got manhandled on Vjun.

Your theory of Makashi owns all just rolled away, like Dooku's head on Invisible Hand.

And, no, he didn't spar with Sidious. Labyrinth of Evil confirmed it.



He didn't spar or train his lightsaber skills under Sidious, only the ways of the Sith. I am aware of whom he trained. Grievous and Ventress were both skilled, yes. And yet Obi-Wan manhandled Grievous, someone who - and I quote made Dooku "hard pressed to outduel the cyborg".

I never said that Count Dooku's lightsaber skills went downhill. If anything, they got better. But, unfortunately, he can't do shit against someone who is much stronger than him, faster, and has exceeding raw power.



Therefore better than Vaapad? Go back and re-read, sonny boy. On average, Makashi is a better dueling form. But, as we've seen, people with "inferior" forms have stalemated or crushed Count Dooku in a fight before. Means jack. Plus, if anything, Yoda's commentary on Vaapad even outright states that it is far more lethal.

Wookipedia is a good source, but for statements like that - unless highly supported have no bearing. And if Dooku is nearly impossible to defeat, what's that make Anakin? Or Yoda? Or Sidious?



Anakin stronger than Mace? It is possible. But Mace can kick ass, unarmed. He's lightning quick, and likely the better fighter than Anakin - who really isn't trained in martial arts or anything of the nature as far as I know. But, in either case, Mace still has far more strength than Dooku does.

Windu's form teeters on the brink of the dark side. He fights almost just as relentlessly as Anakin does, without the adverse side effects. He keeps his tactical cool, but let's the power flow through him.



That didn't happen with Anakin, as Advent has proven. Anakin was all over Dooku. Dooku couldn't afford to use the Force against Anakin, because he'd have been broken. He had to use all of his power to try to keep Anakin at bay.

And, when did Dooku ever use the Force against Yoda during a saber fight? Yoda was in a saber lock and Dooku used the Force against Anakin and Obi-Wan - who were unconscious and unarmed. Given that Dooku fought Yoda as a means of attempting to prove his superiority, methinks that if Dooku thought he could successfully attack Yoda - he would've. But he didn't.



Dooku has the advantage in offensive Force powers. Unfortunately, he's not Yoda or Sidious, so I don't see him overpowering Mace strictly with the Force, and likewise, if Mace can handle Sidious's power (though from an inferior position) he can sure as hell handle Dooku's. And, no, if anything - Mace has the advantage in saber combat.

I would say Mace overpowers Vader and Anakin overpowers Dooku. Though this time Dooku has learned from his mistakes and will put up a MUCH better fight.

I don't see how the RotS team can lose. RotS Vader would wipe Dooku out, and Mace will defeat Vader.

Right back at you.


I guess twenty years of being out of practice with a lightsaber - no one to spar with or hone his skills against - would play into that just a bit, especially after noting that Vader had hundreds of droids to work with plus the time he spent sparring with and training various acolytes and assassins.


He absolutely thrashed him twice in AotC (lightning, then duel), and was the victim of circumstance in RotS.


Yeah, fair enough.


Except his furthering - or at least tuning - of his skills in the lightsaber against Grievous, Sev'rance, Ventress, Skorr, Vos, and a host of others, while Mace met a total of three lightsaber-wielders during the war. And I shouldn't have to mention his advancement in the Force.


For starters he invented it, so he'd obviously be the best-versed in its use. But that doesn't mean he can beat an opponent who mastered a style created for the sole purpose of dueling, and one who has over thirty years on Mace in the weapon's use.


No shit, and Mace obviously couldn't beat him.


*cough*circumstance*cough* I'll give Anakin that last sequence at the end, but before that? Dooku was absolutely pwning the duo. Have you ever considered that if he'd wanted Anakin out of the fight instead of Obi-Wan, he could have simply reversed the motions (kicking Kenobi, chucking Anakin)?


Yoda, who had what, eight centuries on Dooku? Think, please.

And if by manhandled you mean managed to graze twice, across the arm and abdomen, then sure, he was flat-out owned.


Skilled doesn't quite cover it.


First - he also managed to get pwned by Ventress on three separate occasions.

Second - you seem to be ignoring the fact that General Grievous isn't Force-sensitive. Against the high-calibre Jedi, like Mace Windu and Kit Fisto, he really can't do much. It's in the lesser Jedi that he becomes the infamous killing machine he's known to be.

Third - Mace happened to find the General's blows to be the strongest and fastest he'd ever had to encounter, so Dooku being hard-pressed shouldn't mean much. And, we often find Dooku lecturing Grievous on his style - the number of moves it took for the cyborg to overwhelm his guards seems to pale in comparison to Dooku's flick of a wrist.




"People" being a nine hundred year-old warrior and a boy who Sidious happened to favor. Sonny boy.


Bull. It's alright for background and general events only. For summarization of a character's skills and abilities, it amounts to nothing.


Mace is almost certainly in a league of his own in terms of physical strength.


See the above: if Dooku had chosen to, he could have kncoked Anakin senseless instead of Obi-Wan, and you know it. Circumstance.


He's probably referring to the Force-battle beforehand, but that's not a viable example.


I'd like to see Mace stop multiple assaults of lightning and flying debris with the ease demostrated by Yoda.


Maybe. But we've seen superior or balanced duelists unleash Force attakcs against their foes in the midst of battle before, but none have ever been a Sith - I'd love to see how quickly Mace recovers from a blast of lightning dealt in the fashion of a Force push.


No, if anything, Mace's only chance is in saber combat.

I think Mace will overpower Dooku just as Anakin did. I'm sure Mace could have easily ridirected some of the metal or stopped the falling debris w/ ease. I'm not so sure about absorbing lightning but not only cvan he absorb the lightning w/ his lightsaber but he can redirect it using Vapaad(and I'm pretty sure Mace will have his lightsaber ignited). Let's not also forget that Mace has an unrivaled Shatterpoint ability. I'd say Mace is if not on par w/ Dooku he's right below him. Look at what he did in the Clone Wars series. While not using lightning or levitating massiuve objects(like Sidious or Yoda) he was destroying hundreds of super battle droids unarmed. With a flick of his rist he was also literally breaking them into many pieces. I'd say Dopoku's only advantage of Mace in the Force is his Dark Side abilities taght to him by Sidious. For IMO Mace is everything Anakin is just more exp., saber prowess, shatterpoint, vapaad, greater force mastery, possiby physically(aided w/ the force), and control of his emotions and more tactical. That can only mean bad things for Lord Tyranus.

Surely someone of your debating abilities would have realized that I didn't claim that a source stated that Mace had the power to take on and defeat Dooku. Rampant did. So, no, Faunus. It doesn't apply.



The point is that you and Rampant seem to have this delusion that "because you beat them once, you obviously can do it again." This is not the case. Regardless of the circumstance, this is but one example of a previously defeated combatant returning to defeat the one who beat him in the first place.



The victim of circumstance? Please. If you, like some of your friends, intend to argue that Dooku lost because Sidious restrained him, or Dooku wasn't going all out, then I will be very happy to shut that case for you.

Dooku lost because a pissed off Anakin wiped his ass with Dooku's defense.



He honed his skill against the dark jedi he trained, yes. I've never denied that. But, then again, it is logical to conclude that Mace didn't let his skills slacken either.



Actually, Mace claims that Depa's bladework may have surpassed his own - and she is trained in Vaapad. However, Vaapad has an advantage against dark side users, which Dooku is. Given that Mace is a master of the deadliest form, is blessed with a shatterpoint ability, and Vaapad is detrimental to dark side users - what stands to reason that Dooku is obviously better?

Oh, yes. Given that he is the master of Makashi. Well, kudos to him. Yoda stalemated him on Geonosis, kicked his ass on Vjun, and Anakin decapitated him shortly after getting pissed off.



I am going to use a tactic that you have in the very first post.

"right back at ya!"

Unless, like I said, throwing henchmen at someone obviously is a sign of superiority.



*cough*bullshit*cough*

When Anakin got pissed, Dooku lasted about ten seconds. Woo! Yay! Go Mr. Makashi Master!

Dooku, absolutely pwning the duo? Yeah... okay. That's why he was constantly giving ground, and the novelization goes so far as to that he was barely holding Obi-Wan (a defensive attacker) and a restrained Anakin at bay.

Hence why he had to separate Obi-Wan from Anakin. Little did he know that that single move was the thing that ended his life.



Yoda had over eight centuries on Sidious, who was younger than Dooku - and who is, supposedly, an inferior duelist to the Count. Why don't you think, please?



Hmm. Let's see, Faunus. Why not add the setting in? The battle was set on Vjun - a planet steeped in the dark side of the Force. Naturally, it stifled Yoda's powers. To top it off, Yoda was distracted, trying to save a woman from plummeting to her death. That's when Dooku attacked.

Then guess what happened? He distracted and fled. Such is his tactic, it seems. Twice against Yoda and once against Windu.



Yes, because Grievous acquitted himself so well against Obi-Wan...



I don't deny that. Yet, Grievous is supposed to be greater than Ventress, a fact that Dooku confirmed in Dark Rendezvous. And Obi-Wan raped him in a fight.



Ah! Good. Great job, Faunus. Now, explain to me why - especially since this is the case - Dooku "was hard pressed to outduel the cyborg"?



Oh, yes, I forgot. The Magnaguards were supposed to be expecting for Dooku to attack them in the middle of the lecture. Funny. I thought they stopped fighting and listened. My mistake.



Please. Once again, if you're going to argue this, I will have no problem shutting this case down for you. Permenantly. Dooku lost because a pissed off Anakin is too powerful for him. Period.



M'kay then.



Guess that means Dooku's in some serious trouble.



But he didn't. Or maybe he thought a hard kick to the chest that sent Anakin smacking against a wall would be sufficient enough. Or maybe it was because of Dooku's consumate arrogance that made him disable Kenobi - before attacking Skywalker.

Like I said: Anakin curbstomped Dooku because he was too powerful.



Precisely.



You sure? 'Cause Obi-Wan seemed to equip himself nicely against Dooku's lightning. Sidious is far more powerful than Dooku in the Force. Just because Mace had problem with Sidious's doesn't mean that he's going to have problems with Dooku's.

Or do you believe Dooku is equal or superior to Sidious in the Force? Doesn't matter. He's not.

Anyways, if AotC Obi-Wan can easily fend of Dooku's lightning - don't see why RotS Mace Windu can't.



See the above.



Which, as it seems - he'd win.

Wow, and Mace didn't get the same kind of practice? Please, he was constantly tuning his saber skills with other jedi.



Sora Bulq and Assaj Ventress in his own comic, Depa Billaba in Shatterpoint, Dooku in Obsession, General Grievous in LoE, and Sidious in RotS.



What, and you think he has no chance with the force?
If anything, Dooku has displayed greater mastery and control of the force, but Mace has definitely displayed more raw power.
I mean fricking AOTC Obi-Wan was able to block his lightning with ease.
And Mace? Well:

- In Shatterpoint, after he triggers a landslide, one of the kids in the vehicle shoot at him, disrupting his focus. The landslide is lost from his control, and begins to drag the steamcrawler into a volcano. On his back, Mace manages to grip and suspend - in the air - the entire landslide, which was said to consist of several hundred metric tons of rock, earth, and the ilk.

- In Obsession, he gets pissed off at Grievous, who'd just killed Adi Gallia, and slams a giant turret gun and crushes him into the ground, and all it took was a clasp of the hand.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Read wiki and wookie

No offense, but for I know, you could have edited that.

O.o? i swear i didnt

Originally posted by Kadesh
O.o? i swear i didnt

Alright, I'll take your word for it. But could you please post the link?

The point is that you and Rampant seem to have this delusion that "because you beat them once, you obviously can do it again." This is not the case. Regardless of the circumstance, this is but one example of a previously defeated combatant returning to defeat the one who beat him in the first place.
I know you have some issues with people who oppose your arguments, but the quality of twisting words - or making shit up - is something I wouldn't have attributed to you. I guess you learn something new everyday.


I love how everytime one of "us friends" makes as argument pertaining to. . . well, everything, you automatically start pointing out other people associated with us. I am my own person, and you really need to stop acting like a desperate, hurt little ass who can't seem to get over that.


I'd like to see you try.


Dooku lost because his master ordered him to test Anakin, not kill him, and then allowed his own over-confidence to get the better of him.


Obviously, but unlike Dooku, he probably learned nothing new.



Does she have shatterpoint? Did she create it?


More bullshit. What are you using, Wiki again?


I've never said he's a better swordsman for sure, hence why my position on the matter is always that Mace has a chance in a saber contest.


Or not, on all but one account.




My use of the term had purpose. Yours obviously doesn't.


Pointless much?


I'd love to see where giving ground constitutes to inferiority (note - Obi-Wan vs. Anakin), especially when we have Dooku flooring Obi-Wan, then knocking him senseless sconds later while putting Anakin on his ass.

And the novelisation, again, contradicts the movie in too many places to be used as a viable source.


You've avoiding my clearly described point.


You'll note that Sidious didn't win in a contest of sabers. So again, think.


And on "even" ground, I seem to remember Dooku holding his own quite well against Yoda after taking down Obi-Wan and Anakin back-to-back.


Actually, he had Mace falling of the edge of a cliff - I hardly call that fleeing. More like cunning.


Grievous, again, can't win against quality opponents.


And in the end, he's obviously not, at least not by a notable margin.


Your failed attempts at sarcasm are really wearing on me, Escape.

And if you'd read LoE, you'd have the answer yourself. Just because Dooku found himself struggling a little doesn't mean he was in any danger of being defeated, not unless you consider Windu's comments on the general's skill and power to equate to a risk of loss.


Because obviously war-machines created for the sole purpose of combat wouldn't be even the least bit prepared for a surprise attack.


Again, I'd like to see you try.


Make excuses much?

And again, you avoid my point.


Arrogance? How about the orders given to him by Sidious at the end of LoE, which you supposedly read. . .


Right.


A mocking jolt fired off not in the midst of combat was what Obi-Wan managed to hold off. We've seen what a surprise shot of lightning can do to an opponent in Yoda's duel with Sidious.


Because Escape's opinion > All, right?


See the above.


I would, if you would care to address my points.


According to Escape, the "Logic Hound," yeah.

I'm going to kill this whole issue of Dooku vs. Anakin before we proceed, Faunus.

---------------------------

From the official RotS commentary:

"The major issue here is, I put Dooku in after Darth Maul was killed to establish that the Emperor's assistant - or the other Sith - could take Jedi and convert them. In this particular case, the idea is that Palpatine is testing Anakin to see if he's strong enough to become his apprentice, and he doesn't tell Dooku what he's actually up too. Dooku thinks that he's just going to fight Anakin. But the whole thing is a set-up by the Emperor to test Anakin's strength and when Anakin is strong enough - which he proves to be by killing Dooku - then the Emperor's ready to convert him over to the Dark Side, to become his new apprentice."

There you go. Taken word-for-word from the RotS feature commentary. Now . .

- Combine this with the exact screenplay that I provided (which I will provide at the end of this post).

- "Soon I will have a new apprentice... one far younger and more powerful." - Darth Sidious/Palpatine

- The fact that Palpatine's "test" could only be accurate if he pit Dooku and Anakin up against each other, unrestrained.

. . . and you have an open and shut case. George Lucas, the official screenplay, a quote from the movie, and the fact of accuracy all indicate and state that Anakin is greater and more powerful than Count Dooku.

About the Anakin versus Dooku fight I've found:

"Palpatine has told Dooku. 'I have somebody who I think will be a great Sith Lord and I think we can get him to join us. But we need to test him. So we're going to setup a situation where you fight him. If he gets the best of you, then I'll stop the fight and he'll have passed the test. If you get the best of him, then we'll let him go, and we'll let him stew for a few more years until he's ready.' But behind it, obviously, is Palpatine's real intention: If Anakin is good enough, Anakin can kill Dooku and become Palpatine's new apprentice. But he didn't tell Dooku that."

--George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 41.

From the official script:

38 INT. GENERAL'S QUARTER'S-TRADE FEDERATION CRUISER

The elevator door opens and the TWO JEDI carefully make their way into the main room of the General's Quarters.
At the far end sits SUPREME CHANCELLOR PALPATINE. ANAKIN and OBI-WAN move toward the CHANCELLOR.
As they get closer to PALPATINE, they see a very distressed look on the Chancellor's face.

(con't...)

OBI-WAN and ANAKIN charge COUNT DOOKU. A great sword fight ensues.

(con't...)

As the battle proceeds, OBI-WAN and COUNT DOOKU are tired. ANAKIN is stronger as he becomes angry.

ANAKIN continues to drive the attack on DOOKU. COUNT DOOKU throws OBI-WAN back using the Force.

ANAKIN and COUNT DOOKU move up the stairs. As they reach the upper landing of the General's Quarters, ANAKIN leaps over COUNT DOOKU. OBI-WAN reaches the top of the stairs, destroying TWO SUPER BATTLE DROIDS. COUNT DOOKU holds OBI-WAN in the air using the Force as he turns and kicks ANAKIN out of frame. OBI-WAN is choking.
ANAKIN hits the archway.

DOOKU sends OBI-WAN flying. The Jedi tumbles to the lower level unconscious. COUNT DOOKU spins around again and, using the Force, causes a section of the balcony to drop onto OBI-WAN.

ANAKIN spins and kicks COUNT DOOKU, sending him over the balcony. ANAKIN Jumps, following him down to the main floor. COUNT DOOKU and ANAKIN continue the fight.

(con't...)

Anakin regains his composure and attacks COUNT DOOKU as the Dark Lord continues his spin to meet him head on. Their fighting becomes even more intense.
Anakin attacks COUNT DOOKU with a new ferociousness.

(con't...)

Anakin and Dooku continue their fight. It is intense !

Finally, in one last energized charge, ANAKIN cuts off COUNT DOOKU's hands.

The Jedi catches the lightsaber as it drops from the severed Sith Lord's hand. COUNT DOOKU stumbles to the floor as ANAKIN puts the two lightsabers to his neck.

PALPATINE is grinning as he watches COUNT DOOKU's defeat.

(finished)

--------------

There you go. If you need any more convincing, I can get Advent here.

I do not deny that Count Dooku was winning the fight before Anakin gave into his anger.

However, according to the very same novelization, the very second he decided to use his rage: "Dooku was already dead. The rest was just detail."

Quite plainly, Anakin obliterated him with unspeakable ease. The fight was set on equal terms. I've provided two quotes from Lucas that make it quite clear that Sidious orchestrated the fight and did not restrain either Count Dooku or Anakin. As I asked Faunus, how inept would that be? To orchestrate a fight that ultimately decides which one shall be your apprentice - if you have the fight rigged?

It is illogical. And Lucas disagrees. Thus, your opinion is moot.

Edit: By the way, if anyone was restrained, it was Anakin.

Palpatine's assistance? No, Zephiel. There was no help from Palpatine, save for a single remark that didn't, as I recall, make its way to the movie itself.



Lucas said, quite clearly, that the fight wasn't set on any rigged terms. Palpatine did not interfere other than, as I said, a single remark that did not make its way into the movie. Count Dooku taunted Anakin and paid the price. And, please, after Count Dooku disposed of Obi-Wan, Anakin was already pushing Dooku back - driving him on the defensive.

Dominating Anakin? Wrong. The only dominating that occured was when Anakin wiped his ass with Dooku's defense in about ten seconds.



And Lucas, being the supreme authority regarding Star Wars, would be correct - meaning his views overturn yours. If you want to argue differently, argue elsewhere. No one cares about your opinion when it conflicts with a canon source: Lucas.



Wrong. Your point is moot. You want to defy canon? Go right ahead. That alone ends your argument.

You make it seem as though Palpatine got up from the chair, pulled out his lightsaber, and attacked Count Dooku along with Anakin. He did not. According to the novel, he simply blurted out a single remark.

Need I remind you what happened then?

"Dooku was already dead. The rest is mere detail."

Now, that is what you call an "ass kicking", in its finest, purest form. The moment that that happened, Anakin had already won the damn duel, Zephiel, and nothing that Count Dooku did throughout the entire course of the fight - even with Obi-Wan - came close to that amount of dominance.

"The major issue here is, I put Dooku in after Darth Maul was killed to establish that the Emperor's assistant - or the other Sith - could take Jedi and convert them. In this particular case, the idea is that Palpatine is testing Anakin to see if he's strong enough to become his apprentice, and he doesn't tell Dooku what he's actually up too. Dooku thinks that he's just going to fight Anakin. But the whole thing is a set-up by the Emperor to test Anakin's strength and when Anakin is strong enough - which he proves to be by killing Dooku - then the Emperor's ready to convert him over to the Dark Side, to become his new apprentice."

I suppose you didn't read this, which came from Lucas himself, who is the highest authority. Aside from common logic, Zephiel (you seem to struggle with that), which indicates (quite plainly) that Sidious could not have had any accurate results from this "test" if he restrained Dooku and offered more support for Anakin - then how exactly would he determine which of the two is more powerful?

Sadly, Faunus is incorrect. According to the Making of RotS and Labyrinth of Evil, Sidious himself agreed that Anakin may never be ready to serve the Sith, which would mean that he would have likely let Dooku kill Anakin if that were the case. He had no pre-emptive bias for Anakin. He simply wanted to see which one would win.

Now, if I may gather your attention to this quote from Lucas (again, the ultimate canon source):

"But the whole thing is a set-up by the Emperor to test Anakin's strength and when Anakin is strong enough - which he proves to be by killing Dooku - then the Emperor's ready to convert him over to the Dark Side, to become his new apprentice."

Right there. Anakin proves his strength to become the Emperor's new apprentice by killing the current one - meaning that Anakin's power surpassed Count Dooku's. He showed his superior power, which was what Palpatine was after all along. The stronger pawn, and RotS clearly decided that it was Anakin, not Dooku.

So, no. Lucas doesn't say "oh, Anakin's physically stronger and has a higher potential", he just says he's stronger. He kicked Dooku's ass.

Now, let's see if I can direct your attention to part of the script (which is also, like the novelization, a G-canon source):

"As the battle proceeds, OBI-WAN and COUNT DOOKU are tired. ANAKIN is stronger as he becomes angry."

We have it right here. Obi-Wan and Dooku grow more fatigued, but as Anakin's anger builds - he becomes stronger. Hmm. Could that be a factor as to his victory over Dooku? I guess so.

Count Dooku even stated in the novel that not only was Anakin's physical strength astounding - so was his energy and raw power. Dooku could not handle that. In fact, the novelization goes so far as to say that Obi-Wan (who is a defensive duelist) and a restrained Anakin nearly shut him down. He used nearly all of his Force reserves trying to keep them at bay, and his handling of Obi-Wan was "desparate" - and even then, "Skywalker was all over him".

"Anakin and Dooku continue their fight. It is intense !

Finally, in one last energized charge, ANAKIN cuts off COUNT DOOKU's hands."

There is where the script confirms that Anakin's energy helped him overpower Dooku.

"Dooku was already dead. The rest was merely detail."

Keep going back to that point. That is total and utter annihilation, Zephiel.

Count Dooku lost the fight because Anakin's raw power crushed his defense.

I agree with most of what you are saying Escape, but you are forgetting that all this happened after Sidious decided to interfere and sway the odds into Anakins favour.

As Zephiel has quoted, "Then Sidious, for some reason, decided to intervene". And intervene he did. As soon as this happened the whole neutral setting and fair fight reasoning goes out the window. He took away the advantage that Dooku had gained through superior fighting tactics, and made Anakin the lethal, nearly unstoppable killing machine we all know and hate. Dooku, through superior fighting abilites, experience and skill had the match in the bag, and would have won had sidious kept his mouth shut.

This is how the match was described before Sidious spoke.
-Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met the boy's charge easily.
-Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions
-Dooku allowed himself to relax; he felt that spirit of playfulness coming over him again

As you can see Dooku is clearly wiping the floor with Anakin, and it is logical to assume that Dooku would have won the fight if the duel had kept going. Now this is how it is described after Sidiois interferes.

-Dooku was already dead. The rest was merely detail
-Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell
-even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step...

These all clearly indicate that Anakin was now in complete control of the fight. However, none of this would have happened if Sidious had kept his trap shut and left the duel to be played out accordingly (meaning no inteference). It is obvious that Dooku would have won if Sidious hadnt spoken and tipped the scales to Anakins favour.

However when I post all this I am not saying that Dooku is better than Anakin. Anakin, when angered, would whip the Count into next week. However im just saying that Dooku has the skill and experience to beat Anakin as of ROTS, if everything remained neutral.

Saying something isn't an "intervention".

Unless, of course, the book actually states that Anakin acknowledged whats palps said, and acted upon it. As opposed to just getting pissed and butt-raping the count.

Quote please

Originally posted by Council#13
According to Cestus Deception, Shii-Cho also demanded emotional strength to power it. Ataru is probably the most physically demanding, but does that mean that it gives off the same kinetic power as Djem So upon hitting another blade? No, it stated vaapad needed the intensity of form V,

Intensity as in ferocity. That does not mean that each blow is slammed down heavily.

Since I apparently lack the reading comprehension and the very intellect to continue this debate with you, oh overlord of intellectuals, Zephiel, I consent.

You're right. Before Palpatine interjected with his bit of advice to Anakin, Dooku was going to win. He had the intellectual and psychological edge over Anakin. However (just so we're clear), Anakin's power (strength in the Force, skill) DID (!) surpass Count Dooku's. Lucas made that absolutely clear. The only reason that Dooku was winning was because of the psychological and mental edges that he had over an unstable young man.

So, if you're going to argue who would win (without Palpatine's invervention), it would have been Dooku. If you're arguing which one of them was more talented with a lightsaber or more powerful, then it would be Anakin.

Because, once Anakin got his "starburst of clarity" he WTFpwned/annihilated/obliterated/wiped out Count Dooku. It was no contest, and Dooku didn't have a ghost of a prayer to save him.

So. There you go. I consent.

Originally posted by Gideon
Since I apparently lack the reading comprehension and the very intellect to continue this debate with you, oh overlord of intellectuals, Zephiel, I consent.

You're right. Before Palpatine interjected with his bit of advice to Anakin, Dooku was going to win. He had the intellectual and psychological edge over Anakin. However (just so we're clear), Anakin's power (strength in the Force, skill) DID (!) surpass Count Dooku's. Lucas made that absolutely clear. The only reason that Dooku was winning was because of the psychological and mental edges that he had over an unstable young man.

So, if you're going to argue who would win (without Palpatine's invervention), it would have been Dooku. If you're arguing which one of them was more talented with a lightsaber or more powerful, then it would be Anakin.

Because, once Anakin got his "starburst of clarity" he WTFpwned/annihilated/obliterated/wiped out Count Dooku. It was no contest, and Dooku didn't have a ghost of a prayer to save him.

So. There you go. I consent.

Good call. I agree with you on the point that Anakin is the superior fighter in a pure power duel. However, Faunus, Ox, and I, we collectively believe that Dooku's cunning and intelligence plays to his advantage in his duels against what we can agree on as an "unstable young man."

Let's have a martini.

Though if we are gonna put up a vs thread, Count Dooku vs Anakin Skywalker (ROTS), who will now prevail?

Originally posted by Gideon
a single remark that did not make its way into the movie.
"Damn" covers this pretty well, I would think. So basically, you're opting to take pieces of the novelisation - random narrative statements, descriptions, details - that suit your argument, but completely disregard the rest of the garbage in the novelisation, and still tote it as a canon source? I call. . . well, a lot of things.

1) You use the narrator's observations, as well as descriptions of the battle and the characters - okay.

2) Then, you claim that a detail of the novelisation didn't make it into the movie, but the novelisation is still perfectly canon. So tell me this - what about the whole ****ing battle as described by the novel? What happened to Dooku pinning Anakin into a wall with a table? What happenedto the duo's terrific teamwork, feints, and combinations? What happened to Obi-Wan getting kicked down a flight of stairs instead of hurled through the air?

If there was a stronger word than nitpicking, I'd use it in a heartbeat, cuz this is the height of fallacy.

Originally posted by kamikz
Though if we are gonna put up a vs thread, Count Dooku vs Anakin Skywalker (ROTS), who will now prevail?
In the movie, Count Dooku underestimated the power of Anakin Skywalker, despite Anakin's warning that his powers have doubled since the last time they met.

Dooku still considered it an easy challenge and knocked Obi-Wan out of the scene and decided to take on Anakin alone. But when dueling with Anakin began, Dooku suddenly realized his mistake but it was too late.

Dooku could defeat Anakin through his Force Powers (due to his superior knowledge of the force) but not in a saber duel. Anakin's Djem was very effective against Dooku's Makashi.

So in "Saber Dueling", Anakin wins. But in a "Force Contest", Dooku wins. Still it depends upon what scenario people use in a "versus" contest between these two warriors.

Originally posted by kamikz
Though if we are gonna put up a vs thread, Count Dooku vs Anakin Skywalker (ROTS), who will now prevail?

It depends. According to Lucas, Anakin is the more powerful combatant. But, Zephiel is indeed very much correct. Dooku had the psychological domination of the fight. However, to underline this, it is the only reason that he held his own throughout the fight.

Should Anakin have the same "state-of-mind" that he had against Dooku on Invisible Hand - or even, the same state-of-mind that he had when he discovered Palpatine's identity as Darth Sidious - he would likely crush Count Dooku in a lightsaber duel. Dooku doesn't have a ghost of a chance in that category.

Should Anakin not realize this, then, Zephiel is likely correct - Dooku would win.

Now, Darth Vader vs. Dooku (which is what this thread is) would likely turn out differently. Anakin beat Dooku by tapping into the dark side. RotS Vader is fully immersed in it. Now, one may argue that he was unable to defeat Obi-Wan, but that is due to Obi-Wan's defensive skills as a fighter and his intimate knowledge of Anakin and his tactics.

By going off of that, I'd say that RotS Vader will have no trouble with Dooku in a lightsaber fight. Dooku's only chance is to attack him with the Force.

The thing is though, Anakin uses anger most of the time against real threats. Like when he fights Asajj, he beats her ass and always has a muderous expression. But when he fights against droids (like in the Invisible Hand landing area), he fights calmyl.

Obi-Wan won because he's eerily level-headed and a hell of a lot smarter than Anakin. End of story.

That is true. But, against Obi-Wan, Vader did not use much technique. His hatred now surpassed anything - so he essentially just threw himself at Obi-Wan, slashing and attacking.

It was Obi-Wan's clear thinking, unparalleled defense, and his knowledge of Anakin that kept him alive.

Though Dooku is a better swordsman than Obi-Wan, his defense is not as skilled, and there's no way in hell he can handle Anakin's strength like that. Anakin'd break him in half, Zephiel.



Offensive forms aren't better than defensive forms, either. They've both got the obvious advantages.

Firstly I would argue with how you imply that Anakin was not using the knowledge he had against Obi Wan in the duel.

They were both described as "complementary halves of one warrior," and "knowing each others style intimately," within context of the actual fight. The author was implying that they both knew each others forms well, and it was difficult for either of them to break through the other.



I have looked through the the passage detailing the fight and I haven't seen the author state anything indicating that Anakin's loss of the battle was due to the effects of an emotional state that was an exception to how he would normally behave.

It seems that this is how Anakin would fight in an arena, 9/10. Recklessly. With great power and skill, true, but susceptible to taunts and trickery. The exception would seem to be after Palpatine's advice when Anakin managed to keep his calm and fight with precision and skill, compounded with his fury. But again, this is inferred to be the exception.




Given that the general rule with Anakin is that he is susceptible to trickery, cunning, and psychological attacks made by the enemy, I don't think Dooku needs a strong defense. Makashi heavily relies on feints and taunts; it is general knowledge. Dooku uses them excessively. He can lure Anakin into a comprimising position even more easily than Kenobi did in their duel in ROTS. That's why I feel that as of ROTS, Tyrannus is the victor most of the time (not necessarily that he has greater saber skills than Anakin)

I find that interesting, Zephiel. Because if Anakin had the mentality to use his knowledge against Obi-Wan, even when he was in the middle of a psychotic rage - then I could see him taking Dooku out.



Well, then there you have it. If he didn't lose the mentality he had before he fell, then he could take Count Dooku. It seems that Palpatine's advice to Anakin aboard the Invisible Hand battle stuck with him.

Palpatine: "Are you going to kill me?"
Anakin: "I would certainly like to."
Palpatine: "Oh... I know you would. I can feel your anger... it gives you focus, makes you stronger."

That was before he fell.



It is no longer an exception after the fight, as according to the script - and you, when he fell as Vader - he kept the identical mentality. It seems that Sidious's advice stayed with him.



Anakin's skills are superior to Tyranus. And, as you said, he kept the same mentality.

If that is the case, then he can grind Dooku beneath his heel in a fight.